perl6-projects.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | evalbot: 'perl6: say 3;' | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is your friend!
Set by moritz_ on 4 May 2009.
ruoso but that is different in syntax level 00:00
jnthn Oh, you think that is handled syntacticly?
ruoso that's what the spec says
jnthn checks the smart-match table
(or where else should I look?)
ruoso the smart-match table indeed
the first is compiled as 42.does(Int) 00:01
jnthn ruoso: It's not in the top bunch of entries that are syntactic forms though?
ruoso jnthn, I think we already had that conversation... ;)
jnthn Yeah, did we ever get an answer?
ruoso I guess it was that the entire table counts 00:02
jnthn It can't be. You can't syntactically know what's in $scalar.
And that means we can't go syntax-based on protos either.
rakudo: my $foo = Int; say 42 ~~ $foo;
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«1␤»
jnthn If you just went on syntax we'd get the wrong answer there. 00:03
ruoso and that's calling .ACCEPTS
jnthn Yes, but how do you differentiate Int.ACCEPTS(42) from 1.ACCEPTS(42)? 00:04
Other than something somewhere knowing that some methods just need to dispatch differently?
ruoso hmm....
I wasn't really thinking on that in terms of Int.ACCEPTS 00:05
but... wouldn't that be solved by the multi dispatch of ~~ ?
multi infix:<~~>(Any $x, Abstraction $y) { $x.does($y) } 00:06
jnthn Smart-match isn't supposed to be multi-dispatch though. 00:07
ruoso hmm....
jnthn Plus it doesn't solve the ACCEPTS case 00:08
In Rakudo we've got away with this so far because our proto-object had a different type.
(Basically, a mix-in to an instance of the type)
ruoso well... ACCEPTS itself could test for definedness 00:09
jnthn We already said definedness doesn't tell us about proto-ness, and that's mean we make every ACCEPTS method on every type aware of the difference.
Basically we need to dispatch ACCEPTS somehow differently on a type object than on an instance. 00:10
Despite them still being the same type.
Catching it in the dispatch is the best I've thought of so far on that though. :-|
ruoso ok... we're moving to the second question without answering the first
how do we know it's a type object or just an bare undefined value 00:11
jnthn My suggestion is that it claims that it does Abstraction.
ruoso we're going in circles
heh
how does it know it is a type object
?
jnthn That's probably a decision for the representation? 00:12
(e.g. "do I have instance storage" seems to be a sensible way to do it in P6opaque)
ruoso er...
so a type object is an object without instance storage
jnthn That seems to be to be the way you're doing it in smop? 00:13
OK, you're basing your default .defined off this too.
But that's the test that .defined in the repr is currently based on, if I understand correctly?
ruoso I didn't care so much about that, actually... in fact you could even use a defined object as the type object ...
in fact... that's what happen when you do a runtime mixin 00:14
but yes, .defined delegates to .^defined that usually will delegate to .^!instance_storage
jnthn OK, so I think we agree at this point that .defined isn't our way of saying "is this a type object"? 00:15
ruoso yeah... 00:16
but the question is... 00:17
what defines a type object?
I mean...
in SMOP I mostly didn't care so far...
jnthn :-)
ruoso because a type object was simply something I used as a type object 00:18
I never needed to define it per e
*per se
jnthn Aye. That only holds for so long, and Rakudo is a long way beyond that point. :-)
ruoso does that mean you already know how to do it?
:) 00:19
jnthn Well, I know how we are doing it today, but it isn't really in line with S12.
(Which is that our proto-object is an instance of the class + a mix-in, which means it's of a different type) 00:20
ruoso yeah... it certainly doesn't fit with a more prototype-based OO... which seems where you're heading to
jnthn Plus S12 says that that the type object is of the same type.
Plus I've seen a couple of places where us not having them being the same type is liable to trip us up. 00:21
ruoso ok...
jnthn Plus I don't know that it fits too well with the whole meta-class vs representation model.
Which seems to require something more prototype-ish.
ruoso let's examine why we need to define them per se
instead of just defining them by the way we use them
where does that bite us? 00:22
I mean... why do we need an Abstraction role?
jnthn I guess that partly arises out of the "all sigils (but $) imply a role". 00:23
So ::T = ... would want the RHS to do Abstraction
ruoso but :: isn't really a sigil 00:24
in fact ::T is explicitly saying T without a sigil ;)
jnthn Yeah, :: is a bit special.
I'm not sure we need an Abstraction role per se.
ruoso right... 00:25
jnthn It is, however, handy.
ruoso why do we need to test if this is a "type object" or not?
jnthn During the parse we most certainly need to know what is a type object.
ruoso but during the parse we know by their name, not by themselves
jnthn Not for stuff in the package, which will have been fully compiled when we did a "use" of the module they were in. 00:26
ruoso you still need a header-like information for that symbols, don't you?
jnthn But yes, sometimes it goes off known names too.
We don't have one. 00:27
In the pre-compiled case, that's even trickier to get.
We rely in the parse on being able to know if something is a type or not, and I don't see that changing.
Both by checking names we know, and by falling back to looking at the thing. 00:28
ruoso what happens if we neglect the fallback?
jnthn We parse wrongly.
And then generate the wrong code. 00:29
And then we fail it. :-)
ruoso hmmm..
wouldn't it be more elegant if we had a header-like information?
since we can't really define what the fallback needs to look for... 00:30
jnthn And anyway, we already had a case (Int.ACCEPTS(42) vs 1.ACCEPTS(42)) aside from this one where it matters whether it's a type object or not.
(because we need to dispatch .ACCEPTS differently)
ruoso ok... 00:31
jnthn What the fallback needs to look like is going to be a tad implementation-dependent too.
ruoso what's the difference between...
my Int $x; 1 ~~ $x;
jnthn In Rakudo, we're going to have to care about things from other langauges too.
ruoso my $x = Int; 1 ~~ $x;
jnthn Difference in result? None. 00:32
Difference is that the first constraitns $x and the second doesn't.
ruoso did you read the code carefully?
jnthn Yes.
ruoso at the first I just have an uninitialized value
and the second I explicitly set Int 00:33
semantically... it's very much different
jnthn No, if you have a typed variable it's initialized to the proto-object.
ruoso exactly...
jnthn That's now my Dog $fido .= new() works.
Either way, $x ends up containing Int.
ruoso my question is wether 1 ~~ $x should ever be understood as a type check
jnthn yes yes yes 00:34
Because it means $x.ACCEPTS(1)
Which is *exactly* what the multi-dispatcher and everything else involved in type-checking hangs off in Rakudo.
ruoso considering it means $x.ACCEPTS(1)
should it do a type check in that ACCEPTS call? 00:35
I mean
1 ~~ $x is a type check
sorry
1 ~~ Int is a type check
syntatically
the parser can figure that out... 00:36
jnthn I don't quite see what you're getting at.
This isn't syntactic.
ruoso ok... let me try to ellaborate a bit more...
00:36 nihiliad left
ruoso I'm trying to see how far the idea of not being able to define the type object per se can go 00:37
and in that process
I'm contemplating the idea that
my Int $x; 1 ~~ $x;
should be false 00:38
because the ACCEPTS of Int is always the same
so you're comparing 1 with undefined
and that's false
jnthn And for 1 ~~ Int|Str 00:39
Now we have to recognize that syntactically too
?
ruoso well.. there we have a junction
ok.. I see what you mean
jnthn It's interesting to contemplate what happens if we say we don't have a way of knowing whether something is a type object or not by looking at it. 00:40
But having spent the last year thinking a lot about and implementing a lot of Perl 6 type-based stuff, I just don't think it's going to fly.
ruoso afraid we're going to end up with a .^!abstraction flag 00:41
00:42 wollmers left, wollmers joined
jnthn There's just too many places I can think of that it matters, where it gets really hard to see where I'd go with those if we decided it didn't matter. 00:42
00:42 cwe_Q17dh-aYEn joined
ruoso so, from the user perspective... 00:42
what defines a type object?
is that something declared with class/role/etc?
jnthn So far my list of type-ish things are: 00:43
00:43 cwe_Q17dh-aYEn left
jnthn * classes 00:43
* roles
* subsets
* enums
I think that's abou tit.
ruoso ok... besides the ^!abstraction flag (which might be the actual solution here) 00:44
there's one thing we could try 00:45
00:45 bacek joined
ruoso which is about the process of getting it by its name 00:45
jnthn More...? 00:46
ruoso still trying to find how to explain the fuzzy idea he just had
jnthn Remember that some of our type-ish things can also be anonymous. 00:47
ruoso like mixins in the undefined value...
my Int $x; $x does Bar;
> 00:48
?
jnthn That (in Rakudo) takes the type of $x, derives a subclass that does the role, and re-blesses $x into the new type.
I'm aware in smop you can probably do that in a different kinda way.
ruoso I can mixin in the object itself 00:49
jnthn Sure. We have backends that differ in there proto-oo-ness. :-) 00:50
(Which is a good thing, since if we want to see Perl 6 on other VMs, they differ in their levels of proto-oo-ness too.)
ruoso but the question here really is...
jnthn *their
But basically a mix-in in Rakudo changes the type. 00:51
ruoso rakudo: my Int $x; say $x === Int;
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«1␤»
ruoso rakudo: my Int $x; say $x =:= Int;
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«0␤»
jnthn =:= Int is about container identify IIRC
ruoso right...
jnthn That should maybe even fail because the RHS isn't a container.
ruoso rakudo: my Int $x; say $x.WHICH, Int.WHICH;
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«-1240611912-1240611912␤» 00:52
jnthn Right, which is why === gives the same.
ruoso but should it be the same?
jnthn Yes.
$x is just initialized to Int
(which is undefined)
(because it's a type object) 00:53
ruoso ok... which undefined values are not types then?
jnthn class Foo { method defined { False } }; Foo.new # <-- undefined 00:54
ruoso right
hatseflats perl6 has support for coroutines, right?
jnthn It's getting later here. I suspect best will be to both go away and think on it a bit.
And hope that TimToady will show up with a magic answer in the meantime. ;-) 00:55
ruoso yeah... my mind is kinda foggy...
better sleep...
jnthn Yeah, and you're a few timezones over from me. :-P
ruoso but I have a 5-mo old baby in the house ;) 00:56
hatseflats actually, never mind that, what happens when I call coroutine x { statement; yield 5; } two times?
00:56 eternaleye joined
jnthn Ah, I can imagine that serves as quite a sleep-spoiler, but nice in many other ways. :-) 00:56
hatseflats in this case, please ignore the fact that that's probably not proper perl :)
00:56 bacek__ joined
ruoso jnthn, no doubt about that ;) 00:57
jnthn hatseflats: I'm not sure what the status of coroutines in Perl 6 are at the moment off the top of my head.
ruoso hatseflats, Perl 6 doesn't have explicit coroutines
jnthn Last I knew S17 had the most info.
ruoso although you can easily implement them
but the language itself won't provide the "coroutine" construct
jnthn OK, night all
hatseflats nite jnthn 00:58
ruoso it should be fairly easy to implement it in a module tho
hatseflats what I'm trying to figure out is, is the default behavoir of a coroutine an implied for(;;) loop, or does the syntax break if you reach the end of your coroutine without yielding 00:59
ruoso hatseflats, that will be up to whoever implement the coroutine module... 01:00
and we're probably going to have more than one
hatseflats no concensus as of yet then, ookay
ruoso there is consensus 01:01
the consensus is that it is not part of the language core
because maintaining the state of the coroutine raises concurrency issues... 01:02
and semantic issues as wel
hatseflats and thus leave the implementation up to whoever writes a mod for it
ruoso exactly... we do know that the language provides all the runtime features to implement all coroutine models I'm aware of
hatseflats hmhm 01:03
just for shits 'n giggles, top off your hat, name one of the concurrency issues 01:04
I can't deduce one myself :(
ruoso considering you have a coroutine named foo
therefore registered in the lexical scope as &foo 01:05
hatseflats yeah
ruoso therefore available for code that can be running asynchronously
how do you know which state of &foo will it call when each of those codes call it?
hatseflats yep, that's one
ruoso hatseflats, are you aware of the gather/take construct? 01:06
hatseflats not by name
ruoso hatseflats, perlcabal.org/syn/S04.html 01:07
perlcabal.org/syn/S04.html#The_gath...ent_prefix
hatseflats, it's almost the same as a coroutine, but it's not a routine and it maintain its state in a lazy list... 01:09
hatseflats I see
hmm 01:10
01:33 ab5tract joined 01:43 silug left 01:44 Whiteknight left 01:55 chid joined 02:03 japhb left 02:04 viirya joined 02:05 PhatEddy left 02:06 nihiliad joined 02:09 chid left
s1n ruoso: congrats on the gsoc, i hope that works out well and reignites smop development 02:13
ruoso s1n, thanks... 02:14
02:29 mizioumt left 02:46 Kisu joined, Kisu left 02:47 Kisu joined, Kisu left 02:48 Kisu joined 02:49 cspencer joined 02:50 cls_bsd left
cspencer rakudo: (a x=> 2).say 02:54
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub a␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 61 (EVAL_16:47)␤»
cspencer rakudo: 'a' X=> 1
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "X=> 1"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:86)␤» 02:55
03:01 hercynium left 03:11 japhb joined 03:20 donaldh left, donaldh joined 03:39 orafu left 03:40 orafu joined 03:42 silug joined
s1n ruoso: so is there any documentation that indicates what's going on with smop? there's lots of pieces to that and i was always kind of curious about it 03:43
03:57 viirya left 04:00 justatheory joined 04:13 justatheory left, cdarroch left 04:17 justatheory joined, jrockway joined 04:18 mikehh_ is now known as mikehh 04:19 justatheory left
s1n TimToady: i question the need for Str.words (S32:389) when it will most likely only ever be useful in the most basic case. i'm not sure you should clutter the spec with that 04:21
04:43 H1N1[A] left
TimToady I think it will be used frequently enough in the first code other people see that it's worth it for readability 04:46
jnthn: I wouldn't mind a valid bit of some sort that is returned by .defined by default. 04:47
04:47 bacek left
TimToady assuming the storage itself doesn't indicate validity 04:47
so .ACCEPTS only works on the value if it's valid 04:48
otherwise it looks at the .WHAT (which probably matches the cases of smartmatching failures as well)
er, that was not well put... 04:49
but anyway, I think the bit is on data validity more than abstraction.
or maybe there's two bits
I really don't mind bits--I hope there's a taint bit in there too :) 04:50
later &
04:56 mikehh left, cspencer left, mikehh joined 04:59 H1N1[A] joined 05:02 H1N1[A] is now known as H1N1[S]
s1n TimToady: you could alternatively rename it, as .words() is very misleading 05:09
05:16 mikehh_ joined, mikehh left, mikehh_ is now known as mikehh 05:28 bacek joined 05:29 nihiliad left 05:37 ejs joined 05:38 cls_bsd joined 05:41 skids left 05:49 ab5tract left 06:02 ejs left 06:05 mikehh left 06:07 Rolo joined 06:08 Rolo is now known as Kyosuke_Kiryu 06:10 cls_bsd left 06:16 mikehh joined 06:46 azawawi joined
azawawi good localtime() 06:46
moritz_ greetings. 06:47
07:09 DemoFreak joined 07:13 kst left 07:14 azawawi left 07:20 donaldh left, donaldh joined 07:22 mberends joined
spx2 moritz_: hi 07:27
moritz_: read the blackjack article , that was pretty awesome
why isn't there a project for documenting p6 ? 07:28
moritz_: is the test suite of p6 written and you just have to write code so that all tests pass ?
moritz_ spx2: there is.
spx2 moritz_: or not even the test suite is complete yet ?
moritz_ spx2: it's not finished yet, no 07:29
spx2 is there any empirical possible way of telling when the hell it's going to be done ?
so I can know if it's worth starting to learn it or not
07:31 viirya joined
moritz_ you can extrapolate the number of passing tests... 07:31
I did that on perlmonks somwhere, let me find that thread for you..
spx2 moritz_: that would be fantastic 07:32
moritz_: I'd really like to take a look
moritz_ spx2: see www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=751341 07:33
wollmers spx2: Failed 7/381 test programs. 18/13580 subtests failed.
spx2: on my desktop with a fresh pull of rakudo
spx2 ok how long does it take to carry out all the tests ? 07:34
moritz_ 7 test programs? what did you do? ;-)
spx2: about half an hour on my machine... rakudo is still very slow 07:35
wollmers moritz_: git pull; make clean; make; make spectest;
moritz_ IMHO it's already worth playing around with
spx2 moritz_: how experienced are you in order to be able to write code on it ? I think you already know it's grammar pretty well and you have actually written parts of the language and that is probably the reason why you would find it easy to write in it 07:36
07:39 iblechbot joined
moritz_ spx2: I've been hanging around here for 2.5 years or so, reading other people's code... but if you know Perl 5 it's not so hard to get started 07:39
arnsholt rakudo: my @a = ['a', 'b', 'c']; say @a.perl; 07:40
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«[["a", "b", "c"]]␤»
arnsholt Is that correct behaviour?
moritz_ spx2: and I try to blog about it so that others can learn from my experience ;-)
arnsholt: yes
arnsholt Right ho. 07:41
moritz_ arnsholt: you assing a scalar to an array, making it the only element
rakudo: my @a := [<a b c>]; say @a.perl
wait
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«["a", "b", "c"]␤»
moritz_ ah yes
with binding you replace the array
arnsholt Right. Now I see the difference between () and [] 07:48
07:50 meppl joined 07:56 cls_bsd joined
wollmers rakudo: my $j = 1|2; say ~WHAT($j); 08:06
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«Junction()␤»
wollmers moritz_: should it return 'Junction()' or 'Junction'? 08:08
moritz_ the parens are correct 08:10
wollmers moritz_: says 'Junction' on my desktop, so something with my local build went wrong. This explains the failed tests. 08:14
moritz_ wollmers: maybe your parrot is out of date? 08:15
'make parrot'
wollmers Yes, assumed the same.
moritz_ we really need warnings in that case 08:21
wollmers now got the faults at execution, rebuild rakudo 08:26
warnings, or include a distinctive version of parrot into rakudo 08:27
same for spectest - include instead of svn update 08:28
moritz_ for releases, yes
for development: no
wollmers ACK
moritz_ and since Rakudo's releases target Parrot's releases, there's not much point in including it 08:29
but the last rakudo release did include a copy of the spec tests 08:30
wollmers IMHO Rakudo and Parrot are very comfortable to build compared to other projects 08:32
didn't try all, but failed spectests work now with fresh parrot 08:35
08:39 goksie joined 08:42 [particle]1 joined
pugs_svn r26710 | azawawi++ | [S:H:P6] version 0.53 contains the latest STD 08:50
08:52 goksie left 09:00 [particle] left 09:06 bacek__ left 09:11 masak joined
masak greetings, spec-camels. 09:12
09:12 breinbaas left, breinbaas joined
moritz_ aren't we spec bugs now? (see perl6-projects.org) ;-) 09:12
masak we're definitely in a larval stage still... 09:13
rakudo: say 3 ~~ ["a", "b", "c"] 09:14
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«0␤»
masak there are some factual inaccuracies in en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Perl_6_Progra...t_Matching 09:15
moritz_ masak: feel free to improve them ;-)
masak I'm discouraged to go in and fix them, because the edits are held in quarantine.
someone else might be more inclined.
09:16 bacek left
masak I think I've gotten too much of a taste for immediate improvement to accept quarantines. 09:16
everything else around here is immediate. :)
moritz_ masak: maybe to talk to WhiteKnight on #parrot, I think he did some of the wikibook 09:17
masak ah. yes.
we might throw out the onion background while we're at it. it's the ghastly tiled background of the 00's. 09:19
mberends mmorning mmasak 09:20
masak morning mmberends
is that a pumpkin in your pocket...?
mberends rolls the pumpkin onto masak's desk 09:22
could you finish the updates you were doing to proto? eg Installer.pm line 304: .map(*.trim)})\ 09:23
masak already fixed.
I hope I pushed that, though.
oh, seems I didn't.
it's pushed now.
sorry. :/
mberends :) forgiven
masak I have a feeling Installer.pm will break apart into at least two smaller units. 09:24
I'm thinking of WTOP as a use case.
it will want to ask proto about all installed projects.
mberends frowns
masak that's not specifically an installer task.
it's more of a projects-db task. 09:25
mberends frowns more deeply
masak do not want? 09:26
mberends yes, but .HOW ?
masak that's the 1e6-$ question.
09:26 eternaleye left, jnthn left, buu left, hcchien left, Maddingue left
masak all the information we want is contained in %!project-info. 09:27
maybe we just make it a separate class instead of a hash. 09:28
in the absence of user-defined ops, we'll have to access it through methods, but that's no problem, as workarounds go.
09:29 krukk joined, jnthn joined, eternaleye joined, hcchien joined, Maddingue joined, buu joined, irc.freenode.net sets mode: +o jnthn, krukk left
mberends would you settle for that, and the existence of the installed directory as proof that it's been installed? (what's the simplest thing that could work?) 09:29
masak I think it's all we _can_ assert. 09:31
...with reasonable certainty, at least.
mberends but just a random mkdir would throw it :/
masak that still doesn't catch interruptet downloads, for example. or random mkdirs. 09:32
but we're not building the ultimate solution here.
we're building something that works for the great majority.
a random mkdir, simple though it may be, can be considered conscious sabotage for now.
mberends yes, agreed. Installer.pm still unhappy, BTW 09:33
masak OH!
masak checks
mberends line 304: meaning .map({*.trim})\ ? 09:34
masak no, the {} should be implicit by the * 09:35
I thought I fixed that...
oh, there's an extra ) as well. :/ 09:36
jnthn H H 09:37
mberends O AI jnthn
masak jnthn: Rakudo Da... oh, that was tomorrow. :) 09:38
there, pushed. 09:39
masak installs faz to see that proto really works
jnthn masak: Yeah, but I've so little other work at the moment most days I'm doing Rakudo stuff. 09:41
I'm afraid a lot of it is currently a bit "behind the scenes" as it were though.
masak that's ok. 09:42
that's important too.
mberends hapy dat proto workz hear
masak feels he should review his push policy 09:43
mberends: here, a pumpkin.
it was lying on my desk while I was about to $work. 09:44
mberends likes pumpkins but thinks better git-fu would be superior
masak oh, and the 'precompiling..' message doesn't have a corresponding newline later on. 09:45
mberends nah, it was documented as a "delete me when I irritate you" line
masak re git-fu: I think I was just distracted last night. doing mostly Rakudo hacking, not focusing on proto.
mberends: what does that mean, then? 09:46
I think for consistency it should say 'Building proto...'.
mberends it's optional whether you want to keep the precompiling message or turf it out
masak I also think that WTOP dictates that we eventually create a configure and a Makefile.in for proto... 09:47
mberends yes, but as we get along without one, it's currently future cruft 09:48
masak it's on our list of technological debt. 09:49
mberends re: the Configure name, I agree that Configure.p6 looks wrong, but am not convinced about no extension at all, because that file doesn't know how to execute itself. 09:51
I would suggest Configure.pl, and let the 'use v6;' do its work. 09:52
masak I don't think I care enough to argue against that. :) 09:54
I don't like extensions generally, but if it makes some Windows user happy, then let's have .pl
mberends :) will do, and add Gitorious support now. 09:55
masak nice. 09:56
Matt-W Morning 10:04
mberends mmmorning MMMatt-W 10:05
masak rakudo: say 'm' x 10 ~ 'orning!' 10:07
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«mmmmmmmmmmorning!␤»
10:07 cls_bsd left
spx2 anyone here ever used IPC::ShareLite in p5 ? 10:08
mberends spx2: no, but it interests me 10:10
spx2 mberends: really ?
mberends: do youneed shared memory operations ? 10:11
mberends yes, because I had some multitasking stuff, and multithreading was not always the right answer. 10:12
it's been a while since I worked on that though, Perl 6 got me quite distracted ;)
spx2 so , if multithreading was not the right answer , how did you implement ?
poe ? 10:13
mberends I didn't move to poe yet because it looked like too much sledgehammer for a little nut at the time. Today I would seriously look at POE before re-inventing the wheel (pun intended). 10:14
the application was a database backend with a web server and multiple scheduled tasks. Sharing the database connection was a problem in threads. 10:16
10:16 bacek joined 10:17 Kyosuke_Kiryu left
spx2 well it's almost the same for me 10:17
10:17 viirya left
spx2 except that I have some other things also to do 10:17
anyway I was very disapointed in IPC::ShareLite and I gave it a bad rating here cpanratings.perl.org/dist/IPC-ShareLite 10:18
mberends spx2: I see. Is the maintainer active? (a bit off topic for #perl6). There are people here looking at making POE equivalents for Perl 6 though. 10:21
spx2 the maintainer not sure 10:23
I think I tried to email him 10:24
but didn't get any answer
mberends well Perl 6 does not do shared memory today and it does not seem to be a priority. Rakudo would depend on Parrot doing it first, and that's not very evident either. 10:26
10:30 Kisu left 10:31 Kisu joined
mberends spx2: reading the other (happier) CPAN rating and the IPC::Sharelite docs, it is Lite and shares only scalars, not objects as you desire. Your usage is out of spec and criticism unfairly harsh. Try the other modules mentioned instead. Anyway, enough P5, sorry. 10:37
10:42 mikehh_ joined 10:47 iblechbot left 10:48 ruoso left 10:57 mikehh left 10:58 payload left, fridim joined 11:02 H1N1[S] is now known as H1N1[A]
pmichaud Good morning. 11:09
mberends good am, pm 11:10
jnthn morning pm 11:12
11:16 fridim left
pmichaud has a few minutes waiting at the airport. :-) 11:17
11:20 donaldh left, donaldh joined 11:22 fridim joined 11:23 pancake joined
pmichaud well, time to board. bbl. 11:29
11:33 breinbaas left, breinbaas joined
arnsholt baest: Was it you who was interested in my SQL grammar thing? 11:34
baest arnsholt: it was
arnsholt Just pushed the first stuff to git://github.com/arnsholt/SQL-Grammar.git
baest arnsholt: uh nice 11:35
arnsholt If you're still interested that is. It's ludicrously basic, but at least people can look at it if they want 11:36
baest arnsholt: I am. I will have a look in the weekend. Maybe send you some patches if I have time and is inspired :)
arnsholt Sure. And patch away. There's mountains of stuff to do =) 11:37
11:37 hanekomu joined, hanekomu left
baest arnsholt: regarding your readme, I'm not sure that it's possible to avoid actions at all, but it's not that bad 11:45
11:46 mizioumt joined
jnthn oh noes! news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8037688.stm 11:47
arnsholt baest: I don't want to avoid actions as such, I'd just like to override the default parse method with a method that automatically supplies the action object
baest arnsholt: yes, I just saw that in the code, sorry 11:48
jnthn
.oO( And I thought DNF was going to be Perl 6's killer app )
arnsholt And then passes the call on to Grammar.parse, but for some reason I can't get the dispatch to Grammar.parse to work properly
baest jnthn: I've already heard the "oh then perl6 might be release before duke nukem forever anyways"-joke
jnthn ;-) 11:49
I thought Duke Nukem Forever was taking so long because they wanted to write it in Perl 6. :-)
arnsholt I think the joke will be on the doubters though, when they suddenly realise that Perl 6 has come into existence, right under their noses =) 11:50
baest arnsholt: might be that there are some trickery going on. Have you looked at the outputted pir
arnsholt Not yet. My primary focus has been just getting the bare basics sort-of working 11:52
I'll do that though
11:55 amoc joined
masak Duke Nukem Forever will be written, one way or the other. The idea is too concrete to just fizzle away. 12:04
12:06 Casan joined 12:08 mizioumt1 joined
baest masak: so when are you ready with it written in perl6 :) 12:10
12:10 mizioumt1 left, mizioumt1 joined
masak baest: we'll see. I have a couple other projects right now taking priority. 12:10
baest: in fact, I have a very nice idea for a MUD framework that I've been thinking about since 2003, that is more or less waiting for Perl 6 to mature. 12:11
baest masak: :)
masak rakudo: my Int $n = +("foo 5 bar" ~~ / foo (\d+) bar / and $0); say "you can assign numified matches to Int variables" 12:14
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«Type mismatch in assignment; expected something matching type Int but got something of type Num()␤current instr.: 'die' pc 16547 (src/builtins/control.pir:225)␤»
masak :( 12:15
12:15 mizioumt left
masak maybe I have unreasonable expectations on the type system, but I think that the "scalar types" (Str, Num, Int...) should be flexible and do some kind of "late binding", allowing things like the above to work. 12:18
moritz_ then don't declare types. 12:19
seriously
if you want to use a variable like a Num whether it's a Num or not, don't declar a type, and just use it as that 12:20
or declare a cocercion (NYI)
masak yes, you're probably right.
moritz_ that said, numification not returning an Int where appropriate is a known bug in Rakudo 12:21
or you can call it "limitation"
masak moritz_: oh, I thought that too was only an unspecced opinion of mine.
good news, in that case.
moritz_ it's in RT:
s/:/./
masak I know. :)
I put it there.
moritz_ iirc pmichaud acknowledged it as a bug 12:22
masak the original issue is from Druid, where I feel I need to do excessive casting.
moritz_ anway, .int exists
masak that's my workaround at present.
I'm very happy Perl 6 allows me to type 'my Dog $d = Dog.new' as 'my Dog $d .= new'. but in the above case I still have to type something like 'my Int $row = int(...)' 12:23
moritz_ my $row as Int = ...; 12:24
masak oh, ok. I still need to gork 'as', though.
s/gork/grok/ 12:25
moritz_ I don't know exactly if it works like that
but in a signatures 12:26
sub sin($x as Num) { ... }; sin "3.14"; works
by coercing $x to Num
masak well, that gives me almost no type safety at all, if I understand the feature correctly. 12:27
because most everything can be coerced to an Int.
moritz_ and if that casting happend automatically (as you proposed before), then you'd have next to no type safety at all ;-) 12:28
masak you have a point. :)
moritz_ for non-core type it's a good idea though 12:29
typecasting will give you a friendly error message if it doesn't work ;-)
masak there's a very nice deliberate confusion between numbers and strings in Perl. it sometimes seems we lose too much of that niceness when we add type checking.
moritz_ yes, we tend to overuse types 12:30
because we can.
masak I guess I'm sort of looking for a middle ground, even though I know that type systems are best when they're unforgiving.
12:33 Kisu left 12:34 Kisu joined 12:37 ruoso joined 12:38 payload joined
ruoso HellO! 12:42
moritz_ OH HAI
frettled I know it's old and stuff, but: www.flickr.com/photos/34034335@N00/3262204184 (no, no reason to worry, please visit Trondheim) 12:46
ruoso backlogging to see if anything came out from yesterday's open issue.... 12:47
frettled So, how about YAPC::EU in Trondheim next February? :)
moritz_ what about a *cheap* town for once? ;-) 12:48
arnsholt Oooh. YAPC::EU in Norway would be excellent. I'm gonna try to get to Lisboa this year, but if it were in Norway I'd definitely go 12:50
frettled moritz_: I refuse to answer that question as it could be used as evidence against me at a future time. 12:51
jnthn frettled: That's...a long way north! :-D 12:52
frettled: I already did visit once to Trondheim. :-)
arnsholt frettled: Nice picture. For a second I even thought it was real =)
jnthn ok, slovak class time, laters...
moritz_ frettled: If I could find a sponor I'd surely come ;-)
frettled jnthn: mm, although we Norwegians only consider it the "middle" of Norway, although it's still around 500 km south of the north-south center. 12:53
arnsholt: but it is real.
ruoso TimToady, one thing that bugs me about it is that if you have a my Int $x; on the begging of the code and in a corner case it ends up not being initilized, when you do $a ~~ $x, it will do a type check instead of a value check...
frettled arnsholt: I mean, real pixels.
arnsholt *snort* Quite =D 12:54
12:54 iblechbot joined
ruoso jnthn, did you notice TimToady's reply? 12:54
arnsholt frettled: Riktig festlig bilde da. Jeg vurderer å spre det til mine andre utenlandske venner >:) 12:56
frettled arnsholt: but I totally agree, we should apply for a YAPC::EU in a few years. We just have to make sure that sjn and the rest of them forget how much work NPW 2009 was.
arnsholt: gj􏿽xF8r det!
arnsholt When I lived in France, there were some people who wondered if polar bears roamed the streets of Norway. We really should've had that photo back then =D 12:57
frettled yep. 12:58
12:59 abra joined
mberends masak: pushed proto (early), Gitorious support almost complete. 13:00
masak nice. 13:01
I have to do some $work still, so keep the big orange one with you for now.
13:01 cls_bsd joined
masak mberends: maybe I'll have some time to review your commits, though. 13:01
mberends ok, gotta &think() about the repo directory structure differences. 13:02
Matt-W My eyes are going funny
Next time somebody suggests to me that I do something involving reading a 3MB diff, I'm going to throw them out of the window 13:03
Or at least secure a copious amount of caffeine first
mberends you can't seriously read that much text manually 13:04
Matt-W fortunately I could excise a big chunk of it automatically
I'm down to having to peruse about 600KB
aaaw no
this file's been completely replaced
because it's been converted from windows to unix line endings
ow ow ow
subversion's supposed to take care of that! 13:05
masak we have a long way to go with 'smart diffs'.
Matt-W yeah
still need a person to do anything clever with this stuff
I much prefer reading rakudo commit messages :)
mberends remembers it's market day locally, and cycles off for groceries 13:07
Matt-W mmm groceries 13:08
masak Matt-W: I was going to say that! :)
Matt-W masak: oh dear
clearly there's more than just the M thing going on
spx2 mberends: sorry for the late answer , I used Storable to serialize the objects , which proved ok , up to the point where in the destructor I was using ->fetch , that was the actual problem , ->fetch didn't work in DESTROY always, sometimes it did , sometimes it didn't 13:09
masak Matt-W: 'manuscript'?
13:09 riffraff joined 13:10 skids joined
Matt-W how to convince a large, international company that funding the development of Perl 6 is absolutely vital, and, more to the point, that they should be funding me to do it. 13:10
of course 13:11
telepathic aliens
masak Matt-W: you should acquire some sharks with figging lasers on their heads.
Matt-W But then I'd need a pool to put them in 13:14
masak aye. 13:15
13:24 exodist joined 13:32 sri_kraih_ joined, scook0_ left, xinming_ left, cotto left, jan_ left, hatseflats left, nemstep left, Tene left, aindilis left, Tene joined, scook0_ joined, xinming_ joined, aindilis joined, nemstep joined, jan_ joined, hatseflats joined, cotto joined, irc.freenode.net sets mode: +o Tene 13:34 araujo joined 13:37 riffraff left, ashizawa left, ashizawa joined
frettled Matt-W: try selling how important Perl 6 is for the future development of software, how today's software solutions may suffice for the time being, but that future growth is dependant on upgrades. none of today's programming languages offer the economy, flexibility, scalability, security and performance that Perl 6 will. 13:38
masak frettled: I don't know if you're right, but that's very nicely put. 13:39
PerlJam frettled: what happens when they ask "how does perl6 offer economy as compared to ruby?" Or something like that. 13:40
frettled PerlJam: paddle 13:41
Matt-W it's a real language, not a pile of bits taped together... 13:42
I think I'd better start with something smaller
like convincing them to use a decent revision control system
frettled hehe, yeah, like git. 13:43
Matt-W yes 13:44
in fact git would be my preference
what I've been trying to do these last two days would have been much easier if we had git
you know, something that understands what branches are actually for
and what you want to do with them
13:47 skids left 13:48 sri_kraih left 14:00 payload left 14:13 DJ-DONGDOT joined 14:18 justatheory joined 14:29 [particle] joined
masak rakudo: grammar A { token TOP { <text> }; token text { d } }; say ?A.parse('d') 14:30
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«1␤»
masak \o/
14:30 [particle]2 joined
moritz_ yes, that works these days ;-) 14:31
masak nice.
I'm trying to understand what rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=57864 needs to be closed.
in it, pm says 'inheritance and method dispatch don't seem to be working quite properly, and we'll need to get that fixed'. 14:32
moritz_ there's just one thing that doesn't work in inheritance
and there's a separate ticket for that
14:32 [particle]nyc left
masak so I can go ahead and close? which other ticket? 14:33
jnthn back
moritz_ rakudo: grammar A { token a { a } }; grammar B is A { }; say 'a' ~~ /<B::a>/
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in invoke()␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Grammar;' pc 499 (EVAL_20:216)␤»
moritz_ this one
don't know what ticket it is, though
masak I'll have a look around. 14:34
jnthn ruoso: I saw TimToady's response. Didn't think about it yet though. :-)
masak rakudo: grammar WSOverride { token TOP { <tok_foo> <.ws> <tok_bar> }; token tok_foo { foo }; token tok_bar { bar }; token ws { [ \h | \v | '%' ]+ } }; say WSOverride.parse($_) for 'foo bar', "foo\nbar", "foo%%%\nbar" 14:35
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«foo bar␤foo␤bar␤foo%%%␤bar␤»
mberends mmm, fish fried in batter :) masak, did you see the proto changes? 14:36
masak mberends: no, looking now.
moritz_: are you sure that one's in RT? my searches for 'grammar' and 'inherit' turn up nada. 14:37
ruoso jnthn, I'm not sure I got it right... but it seems he's suggesting that ACCEPTS should always check for definedness... 14:38
mberends masak: there may be a small Installer.pm patch to follow for Gitorious projects, working on that now.
moritz_ masak: nearly sure
rakudo: given 'foo' { if /bar/ { 1 } } 14:39
p6eval rakudo 615936: ( no output )
14:41 DJ-DONGDOT left
masak moritz_: nope. really not finding it. 14:41
masak submits, just to be sure
moritz_ masak: ok
Matt-W rakudo: class A {}; my A $a; say $a ~~ A ?? "A" !! "O"; 14:46
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«A␤»
jnthn ruoso: Or type-object-ness at least. 14:47
Matt-W ah good. I was correct.
jnthn ruoso: I think it's more than not aCCEPTS should
ruoso: It's about dispatching differently when we have a type object.
We can't force everyone who writes an ACCEPTS method to go look at the type-object-ness. 14:48
And then decide what to do.
ruoso that gets me to an issue I always had thought about
14:48 [particle] left
ruoso there are some methods that are only valid on defined objects 14:48
jnthn So anyway, I'm probably going to handle this in the dispatcher. It's a pretty cheap check.
Well, of course. Any that depend on state. :-)
I think we need to stop talking about defined here though. 14:49
It's going to get horribly confusing.
ruoso right
jnthn We should probably talk about "type objects" and "instanes" or something.
ruoso there are methods that are supposed to be called on instances and other only in type objects
jnthn Though that's still not quite right. :-)
ruoso I mean... from the user perspective
jnthn Well, there are cases where we want to dispatch a method differently on instances from on type objects. 14:50
ruoso I was thinking that we might define that as a OO feature
i.e.: type methods vs instance methods
jnthn Heh, maybe that's what we steal method ^foo() { } for ;-) 14:52
class Object is also { method ^ACCEPTS($topic) { $topic.does(self) } } 14:54
masak mberends: looks good to me.
14:55 payload joined
ruoso jnthn, yeah... but I guess using ^ is a bit confusing 14:55
masak mberends: I once had this idea that the different repos should probably match to different classes in a hierarchy. then the 'given/when' blocks in various places would translate to inheritence polymorphism instead, bringing light and peace to the world.
jnthn ruoso: Yeah, it isn't really consistent with .^ at all. 14:56
mberends masak: oh yeah, peace, man!
jnthn ruoso: method !OMFG!ACCEPTS { ... }
;-)
.oO( might discourage people from trying it... )
ruoso maybe it's a different declarator
i.e. 14:57
type method ACCEPTS {...}
moritz_ isn't that called method ICANHAZ?
jnthn I don't think we're going to get a single-use declarator past TimToady. :-)
(erm, single-purpose)
ruoso it's just a scope-like declarator
jnthn Yeah, ish...but only relevant to the type object. 14:58
ruoso not really... it's relevant to the object system as a whole
you have two dispatchers in each object
jnthn Essentially I guess you're declaring a method that gets preference (even if it's higher in the inheritance hierarchy) on dispatches on the type object. 14:59
ruoso I think you get two hierarchies
jnthn Yeah.
I worry a little about this though.
ruoso while it falls back to type dispatch
if the instance dispatch doesn't fullfit it
jnthn No, the other way around.
ruoso hm? 15:00
jnthn If it's a type object one you gotta check the type object specific stuff first.
Otherwise you'd go to the instance ACCEPTS always.
ruoso 1.foo tries to call regular methods
jnthn Yes.
Int.foo tries to call type methods, and the instance methods if it can't do the first. 15:01
15:01 nihiliad joined
jnthn Not completely sure if we want to make this a more general OO feature just yet or not. 15:03
I think for 6.0 maybe we can get away with special case.
And punt the issue to the future. 15:04
ruoso and if that fails, it goes through type methods
but Int.foo only tries type methods
mberends masak: the repo class hierarchy will naturally fall out of refactoring the given/when cases, assuming we cover all repo types before we boil them down. We should try to incorporate tarballs and some plain directory sources eg cdrom before shaping the hierarchy imho.
ruoso so new would become a type method, for instance
this also solves the issue of when to autovivify an object
when you have Dog{ :name<Fido> }
calling a regular method would fail,
but then it checks for the WHENCE
autovivifies it and tries calling again 15:05
ruoso lagging...
masak mberends: why tarballs and plain directory sources?
ruoso jnthn, I think we might have just solved a lot of issues
by making it a more general OO feature
jnthn Hmm. 15:06
ruoso lunch &
jnthn I guess a level of caching would make performance less of a problem.
(Looking all the way up to Object's ^ACCEPTS or however we make them look is gonna make type checking slow.) 15:07
(If we don't optimize it somehow.)
mberends masak: because it would be nice to use an installer offline in some cases.
ruoso "all evil is premature optimization squared"
moritz_ another indirection layer is not always a good solution
ruoso jnthn, there are a lot of tricks possible here...
jnthn On the other hand, painting ourselves into a corner that we can't later optimize ourselves out of is also evil. 15:08
masak mberends: all I hear is "more code to administer and keep fresh"... we have enough to do with the codebase already written. :/
ruoso sure...
but we were about to check in ACCEPTS anyway
jnthn I just want to make sure we don't do that.
ruoso I mean
jnthn No, I never was. :-)
ruoso even if in the dispatcher, I mean
jnthn I was always proposing a dispatch level solution. We've just got ourselves a more advanced dispatcher solution. :-) 15:09
ruoso we were about to have a "is this a type object" flag
jnthn Erm, we still are though at some level?
The dispatcher still has gotta know.
ruoso yes...
masak mberends: there are plenty of higher-prioritized candidates for code that we might need in the future, IMO. the recursive-deps stuff, for example.
ruoso so let's make some use of it ;)
instead of an exception to the rul
*rule
jnthn Sure, it's just that once you expose something to users you can't un-expose it. 15:10
ruoso yeah... sure...
jnthn OTOH, a behind-the-scenes special exception can be replaced if we realize it was wrong later, or find a better way.
mberends masak: ok, let's not prematurely overdesign.
ruoso I'm just excited because it's the first time I see a solution for "when does the object autovivifies"
jnthn Being able to define your own ACCEPTS on the type-object could be interesting for parametric roles too. 15:11
In Perl 6 as currently defined, my @a = 1,2,3; sub foo(Int @x) { }; foo(@a) is an error.
ruoso really lunch & 15:12
jnthn If on the other hand the role can say "try .does and then also try checking the values" in its type-object-y ACCEPTS.
moritz_ and who type-checks the arguments passed to ACCEPT?
jnthn moritz_: Not quite sure I follow 15:13
?
masak mberends: btw, github now has issue tracking, so I added your November bug report from long ago.
15:14 skids joined
SamB masak: does it have git mirroring yet? 15:14
moritz_ jnthn: I don't know if I understood your discussion correctly... but if you want to do type checking through ACCEPT methods, then you have a bootstrapping problem
masak SamB: what, github? dunno. 15:15
jnthn moritz_: We already do do type checking through ACCEPTS.
SamB masak: yeah, github 15:17
it'd be really sweet if one could set up automated mirroring of one or more "upstream" repositories for a project ...
masak SamB: well, dunno. never had a need for that.
SamB and also have one of his/her own 15:18
masak trying to comment on news.perlfoundation.org/2009/04/hag....html#more
getting "Comment Submission Error"
SamB then you could use that "network" page to look at the commit graph
masak whom should I contact?
mberends SamB: possibly the Subproject facility approaches your goal. 15:20
15:20 donaldh left
jnthn cheers on masak 15:20
15:20 donaldh joined
jnthn masak: maybe rdice? 15:20
masak jnthn: is he on freenode or irc.perl.org? 15:21
jnthn masak: neither atm 15:22
masak maybe I should just blog about it. :) 15:26
jnthn You could always leave a com...oh, wiat. 15:27
masak blogs about it 15:28
spx2 can file locks be made on directories ? 15:30
mberends spx2: yes, that's how rmdir fails when another process is cd'd there. 15:31
15:33 iblechbot left
spx2 mberends: thanks 15:38
masak use.perl.org/~masak/journal/38936 15:42
rdice already replied, saying he'd take a look.
mberends It's time for Web.pm to power a blogging site. Volunteers? 15:45
masak mberends: have you seen ihrd's Maya?
mberends runs 'proto install maya' 15:46
masak ...and it works! proto++
mberends: I haven't looked closely at it, but it's likely the closest we have to a Perl 6 blogging app right now. 15:47
15:50 mizioumt joined 15:51 eternaleye left 15:52 Psyche^ joined
mberends masak: maya is only partly written, largely templating functions so far. 15:55
masak mberends: anyway, I volunteer. 15:57
mberends can I volunteer to help? 15:58
masak mberends: I don't know, it was your call to arms! :)
logic dictates you make up the rules for who can volunteer.
15:59 Patterner left, Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
mberends this could get recursively ossified. it does make a case for nested project dependencies, Blog -> Web -> Template + HTTP::Daemon 16:01
masak indeed. 16:03
ok, so it turns out perlfoundation's comment function is not broken after all. 16:05
rather, it depends somehow on Javascript to work properly, and I had recently installed NoScript.
turning js on made everything work again.
moritz_ hates it when pages that need javascript don't tell you so 16:06
masak well, it did say "invalid request" :) 16:07
s1n masak: you're one of the authors of november, correct? 16:08
masak s1n: aye.
moritz_ that's not the same as saying "you need javascript to use the comment function"
s1n masak: i assume you know the tests don't pass?
masak s1n: that's a broad statement. :) I have a nightly smoke, and they passed for me last midnight.
16:09 mizioumt1 left
masak moritz_: had it said that, I wouldn't have to blog, send two emails, and then update my blog post... 16:09
s/have/have had/
s1n: what, in particular, doesn't pass for you?
s1n: a nopaste would be nice. 16:10
s1n masak: sure, it's running right now
moritz_ s1n: and be sure to include the Rakudo and Parrot version in your nopaste 16:11
masak yes, please.
ISTR my smoke is running against Bratislava.
masak checks 16:12
seems to be quite an old Rakudo, from Feb 16, no less. 16:13
maybe that's the discrepancy, then.
s1n what's the best way to get the git revision? 16:14
masak s1n: first line of 'git log'.
moritz_ git show|head -n 1
masak or that.
ah right, I had difficulties building newer Rakudo revisions on feather. :/
16:15 Kisu left
PerlJam git rev-parse HEAD # is the *best* way IMHO (for the current branch) 16:15
:-)
masak PerlJam++ # that's obviously the correct answer 16:16
16:16 iblechbot joined
s1n tries to remember how to get revisions from svn 16:16
moritz_ svn info
PerlJam++ 16:17
s1n PerlJam++
gist.github.com/108190 16:18
i wonder if i should update rakudo/parrot...
moritz_ masak: nopaste.snit.ch/16494 november readme patch
masak moritz_: thanks. 16:20
jnthn ruoso: ping
mberends masak: from the docs, ihrd has volunteered already to build a blogging engine, and inputs directly into Web.pm. A second such project would be wasted effort. We can best offer to help him. Call for volunteers withdrawn.
masak s1n: you're running Bratislava, it seems.
s1n masak: what's Bratislava?
masak s1n: if you run bleeding Rakudo, that problem will go away.
s1n: Bratislava is the latest monthly.
s1n oh yeah, i used proto to build rakudo/parrot 16:21
masak aye, I see that now.
it defaults to latest monthly.
s1n how do you tell it to use bleed?
masak I'm really, really sorry I didn't check November against Rakudo before the release.
s1n: actually, your best shot might be to replace the rakudo directory in proto/projects with a git checkout. 16:22
rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo 16:23
s1n yeah i know how to get/build it, i'm just lazy :/
masak I appreciate that. :) it's fun to have proto users. 16:24
masak ponders whether to inject Bratislava workarounds into November
16:24 azawawi joined
s1n masak: i don't think it would be worth it 16:25
sounds like a moving target you'll soon regret
masak depends on the complexity of the workarounds.
s1n any workaround is bound to be temporary anyways
masak but I do seem to recall looking at it and deciding not to... 16:26
s1n: yes, temporary workarounds are par for the course for us Perl 6 project devs. :)
azawawi masak: greeting :)
masak: s
s1n eventually, you'll have to start maintaining the work arounds for workarounds (workarounds for workounds for missing perl6 features), sounds like a death march 16:27
mberends backports.november-wiki.org ;)
masak s1n: nah. our workarounds don't last that long. :) the average life expectancy for a workaround in a Perl 6 project is between 1 and 2 months. 16:29
azawawi: oh hai!
s1n azawawi: it must be summer :) 16:30
azawawi prepares to watch the hunt for gollum :)
masak is thinking of wrapping up and going home 16:32
s1n: working around actually looks feasible. I might get around to it tonight. 16:33
s1n: anyway, thanks for giving November a spin. sorry about the mixed results. 16:34
masak blames entropy
azawawi masak: tonight im going to enable the user to use Rakudo/PGE or STD syntax highlighter in Padre Perl6... 16:35
masak azawawi: you mean you're going to implement choosing between them? 16:36
azawawi masak: yup
masak azawawi: nice.
good luck.
azawawi masak: along with ability to choose which runtime to use (mildew/rakudo)... etc
masak I should really look at that highlighting code, btw.
I want to do cool stuff with Perl 6 ASTs, but haven't figured out how yet. 16:37
azawawi masak: it is on my todo list once i refactor STD_syntax_highlight cron job..
mberends clutches the proto pumpkin tightly as masak prepares to leave
azawawi masak: to add november, STD and t/spec and perl6 examples...
masak mberends: it's yours for now. 16:38
masak heads home
16:38 masak left 16:40 ZuLuuuuuu joined 16:46 rocket_guatemala joined
rocket_guatemala Hello, Im adding smart links to the spect tests in pugs, and I started with the S02-builtin_data_types/array_extending.t file 16:48
but i can't find a synopsis wich mentions this explicitly
moritz_ rocket_guatemala: have you looked into S09? 16:49
rocket_guatemala yep
my question is, should i just add a smart link to a genera header?
ruoso jnthn, pong
rocket_guatemala general header, sorry
moritz_ rocket_guatemala: yes, and write a TODO comment that it needs better spec coverage 16:50
rocket_guatemala where should I add the TODO comment? in the test file?
jnthn ruoso: I fear I'm missing a point somewhere. :-|
ruoso jnthn, where?
moritz_ rocket_guatemala: yes 16:51
rocket_guatemala moritz_: great thanks
jnthn It appears that it's not just that a meta-class can be used with many representations. It's rather than any individual class can.
rocket_guatemala going back to coding
jnthn So first up: when I write a class, is it's proto-object always a p6opaque? 16:52
moritz_ rocket_guatemala: I assume you have a commit bit already?
rocket_guatemala morit_: I do, yes, thanks
jnthn And second: what does it then mean to create an instance with a different representation? Does that representation essentially have to be giving all of the methods and attributes etc of the proto in some kind of copying? 16:53
And if that is the case, what does that? 16:54
jnthn sort of thought he'd understood a lot of this, and then found it all quickly unraveling when he tried to do a concrete implementation of it... 16:56
ruoso jnthn, no... nothing stops you from usign a glib object as an instance of Int 16:57
PerlJam jnthn: the proto-object is always p6opaque unless it's been blessed otherwise. (as I understand things)
ruoso PerlJam, the proto-object is p6opaque *by default& 16:58
PerlJam right, that's what I said :) 16:59
bless is the mechanism to change the defualt.
s/ua/au/
jnthn ruoso: Right, I basically knew that. But the mechanism by which we enable that is confusing me a bit now.
ruoso that's up to the HOW
and that's the reason behind the REPR API 17:00
jnthn ruoso: Do we have to essentially "copy" the set of methods and so forth to the other repr?
ruoso it depends... in a standard OO
you will only install the methods declared directly there in the proto 17:01
and save the reference to the superclass there as well
pugs_svn r26711 | moritz++ | [spec] some EOL conversion; set SVN props to avoid that in future
ruoso but the HOW is the one that will traverse that to find the methods
PerlJam er, I guess it's really CREATE that determines whether we use a p6opaque or not. Not bless.
ruoso yes... CREATE
jnthn PerlJam: Right. You call CREATE to get a candidate to bless. 17:02
ruoso: I see your ClassHOW in bless doing things like
$candidate.^!methods = ();
But I don't see where that gets initialized?
spx2 jnthn: I see you're doing alot of Perl6 presentations ? how does the ratio time_to_develop/time_to_present look ?
ruoso right... it gets initialized by the compiler 17:03
by calling add_method
add_attribute
compose_role
17:03 M_o_C joined
jnthn oh, hang on 17:03
spx2 jnthn: is it >1 or <1 ?
jnthn $candidate.^!isa = $prototype;
spx2: It takes longer to prepare than to deliver.
spx2: How much longer depends on the level of re-use.
17:04 rocket_guatemala left
jnthn ruoso: Does that line I pasted above mean that we add to the list of parents? 17:04
ruoso yes
jnthn erm. Does that not mean that your instances are not really a derived type?
Rather than an instance per se? 17:05
ruoso it is an instance as it has instance storage
jnthn Ok, but basically in the smop world there's not really any such thing as an instance per se?
ruoso yeah... that's the prototype-oo influence in SMOP 17:06
there's no fundamental difference between a type and an instance
jnthn An instance is a representation + storage allocated + the first parent is the type object?
ruoso yes...
jnthn Uff. I hadn't quite realized that bit.
ruoso but nothing stops an instance to have more declarations
and in that case it is its own type
i.e.: mixins 17:07
pugs_svn r26712 | moritz++ | [t/spec] fix roles smartlinks
17:08 mizioumt1 joined
jnthn OK. 17:08
jnthn needs to think this lot through a bit and see how this might end up looking
moritz_ szabgab: it seems that quotes don't work in header sections of smartlinks... 17:09
ruoso jnthn, basically this is how you have ClassHOW as a HOW, and the types being regular objects
moritz_ szabgab: L<S04/"The lift statement prefix"/ doesn't work, but <S04/The C<lift> statement prefix> works
ruoso the cool thing about that, is that you could have a XMLRPCHOW that looks for the methods in the prototypes but dispatches them to a remote site 17:10
as well as
DBIx::Class::HOW
which would look for the definitions of the classes in the prototypes
but would be actually mapping that to the rdbms of choice 17:11
jnthn Sure, I'd figured out that custom meta-classes were cool. I've been trying to work out the representatiosn side of all of this too.
It seems to me that if you're forwarding everything over XMLRPC then your actual representation wouldn't matter so much though?
ruoso exactly...
but you still need to ask which methods you have and with which parameters
and then you ask that to the type objects 17:12
szabgab moritz_, I don't really have time in the next few weeks, you could add these to the smartlinks module with a TODO: comment ? 17:13
ruoso and in the case of the DBIx::Class::HOW, it would use the instance storage to save the local version of the data 17:14
jnthn Yes, true.
moritz_ szabgab: I'll do my best 17:19
szabgab: I don't grok 03-process-t-file.t... should I just add a verbal description? 17:21
17:21 cls_bsd left 17:24 mizioumt left
pugs_svn r26713 | moritz++ | [Text::Smartlinks] add TODO 17:24
szabgab moritz_, just verbal descr 17:25
though better to have it in writing ... 17:26
pugs_svn r26714 | moritz++ | [t/spec] fix all but 3 smartlinks 17:29
azawawi szabgab:hi
szabgab: did u try the latest Perl6 plugin? :)
pugs_svn r26715 | moritz++ | [t/spec] remove tests for hash interpolation in regexes (gone from spec) 17:31
17:37 amoc left 17:39 amoc joined 17:44 nemstep` joined 17:45 minazo joined 17:46 cognominal left 17:48 nemstep` left 17:49 kane___ left, nemstep left 17:50 cognominal joined 17:52 nemstep joined 17:54 azawawi left 18:01 kaether left 18:02 cdarroch joined
moritz_ rakudo: regex text { "foo" }; say "foo" ~~ /<text>/ 18:02
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "foo\" }; sa"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:86)␤»
18:09 abra left, ejs joined 18:14 yary joined 18:16 rocket_guatemala joined
yary newb q: how do I get a list to repeat indefinitely, eg what goes on the right to make "say (1,2,3,4,5) >>*>> (0,1,...?)" show (0,2,0,4,0) 18:17
pugs_svn r26716 | rocket++ | Added smart links to array_extending.t
jnthn yary: I guess (0,1) xx * might do it, but rakudo doesn't have lazy lists just yet so that won't work out so well at the moment. :-) 18:24
yary thanks, I tried that beforehand and got a counter-intuitive result, now I know why! 18:25
just reading through the synopses slowly and trying out ideas as I read 18:26
oh, it is working in this case- 18:27
perl6: say (0,0,0,0,0,0) >>+>> ((1, 2) xx *)
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected ">>+>>"␤ expecting operator, ":" or ","␤ at /tmp/FwMnNqmHzT line 1, column 19␤» 18:28
..elf 26716: OUTPUT«Parse error in: /tmp/yRnq4o3QfQ␤panic at line 1 column 0 (pos 0): Can't understand next input--giving up␤WHERE: say (0,0,0,0,0,0) >>+>> ((1, 2␤WHERE:/\<-- HERE␤ STD_red/prelude.rb:99:in `panic'␤ STD_red/std.rb:76:in `scan_unitstopper'␤ STD_red/std.rb:224:in `comp_unit'␤
..STD_r...
..rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤000000␤»
yary huh, it worked on my machine
perl6: say (0,0,0,0,0,0) »+» ((1, 2) xx *)
p6eval elf 26716: OUTPUT«Unimplemented infix_prefix_meta_operator or infix_circumfix_meta_operator at ./elf_h line 2947␤» 18:29
..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected "\187+\187"␤ expecting operator, ":" or ","␤ at /tmp/udRyN7sSl1 line 1, column 19␤»
..rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤Non-dwimmy hyperoperator cannot be used on arrays of different sizes or dimensions.␤current instr.: 'die' pc 16547 (src/builtins/control.pir:225)␤»
18:29 pancake left
yary rakudo: say (0,0,0,0,0,0) »+» ((1, 2) xx *) 18:29
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤Non-dwimmy hyperoperator cannot be used on arrays of different sizes or dimensions.␤current instr.: 'die' pc 16547 (src/builtins/control.pir:225)␤»
yary I'm getting "121212" as a result locally
but when I quit rakudo and restart it, I get a different answer! hmmm 18:30
rakudo: my @x=(11,22,33); say @x[*-1]; say (0,0,0,0,0,0) >>+>> ((1, 2) xx *) 18:31
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«33␤121212␤»
yary put that in your pipe and smoke it
18:34 rocket_guatemala left
Infinoid nice 18:35
jnthn Heh, I didn't know that works. :-)
yary It only works after the fiddling with @x, otherwise the last "say" returns :Use of uninitialized value (x6) 000000 18:37
PerlJam crazy 18:39
jnthn Indeed. 18:40
That sounds very odd. 18:41
PerlJam It's the *-1 that does something to make it work.
well, @x[*-1] (I guess a *-1 by itself won't help ;-) 18:42
jnthn Ah, that's believable. 18:43
PerlJam yary: did you rakudobug it? 18:46
18:48 alester joined, M_o_C left 18:55 mizioumt1 left
pugs_svn r26717 | jnthn++ | [t/spec] Tests for .WALK. 18:58
yary I will 19:00
lunch break at the moment 19:01
pugs_svn r26718 | jnthn++ | [t/spec] Improve description. 19:03
19:14 cognominal left 19:20 donaldh left, donaldh joined
yary submitted 19:23
it got stranger
19:23 cognominal joined
yary rakudo: my @x=(9); say @x[*-1]; say (0,0,0,0,0,0) >>+>> ((1,2) xx *) 19:24
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«9␤122222␤»
yary rakudo: my @x=(7,8); say @x[*-1]; say (0,0,0,0,0,0) >>+>> ((1,2) xx *)
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«8␤121222␤»
yary rakudo: my @x=(4,5,6); say @x[*-1]; say (0,0,0,0,0,0) >>+>> ((1,2) xx *)
p6eval rakudo 615936: OUTPUT«6␤121212␤»
yary that's the bug report 19:25
sent it in
moritz_ scary. 19:26
PerlJam whoa. That *is* strange
But I can kinda see how it would happen.
jnthn IIRC *-1 is handled rather specially at the moment. 19:28
And thus some stuff is working "accidentally".
dalek kudo: 06e2f1d | jnthn++ | src/parrot/ClassHOW.pir:
When generating parents list, need to stop at Perl 6's Object.
 19:32
kudo: 194b524 | jnthn++ | src/setting/Object.pm:
Fill out the implementation of .WALK such that it passes all of S12-introspection/walk.t.
kudo: 6db88b0 | jnthn++ | t/spectest.data:
Add S12-introspection/walk.t.
19:45 mizioumt joined
jnthn EURGH that tea is *cold* :-/ 19:46
jnthn should keep _one_ mug on this desk at a time.
ruoso .oO ( cold tea is not as bad as cold cofee ) 19:52
PerlJam cold sweet tea is actually quite good. 19:53
19:53 yary left
jnthn ruoso: True. 19:54
PerlJam: Yeah, some tea is good cold. Not this sort.
jnthn drinks coffee by morning, tea by afternoon, and beer by evening. 19:55
If I drink coffee too late on in the day, I have trouble sleeping. 19:56
OTOH, if I don't drink coffee early on in the day I have trouble doing anything. :-)
PerlJam always drinks tea at night 19:57
that might be why I sometimes have trouble sleeping :)
jnthn If tend to go for green or fruit teas rather than black tea, so less caffeine. 19:59
20:00 bacek_ joined
jnthn takes dinner break; more Perl 6 hacking soon. 20:01
PerlJam I need to find a good place to buy real green tea. The local markets here have something called "green tea" but it's nothing like the green teas I'm used to drinking
20:01 Kisu joined, bacek left 20:10 avar is now known as cabin 20:11 cabin is now known as serendipity 20:15 serendipity is now known as avar 20:19 ruoso left 20:38 amoc left 20:42 amoc joined 20:53 ejs left 20:54 alester left 21:22 mberends left 21:32 skids left 21:43 mizioumt1 joined 21:44 Whiteknight joined 21:45 mizioumt left
pugs_svn r26719 | lwall++ | [STD] split gobbling message to both before and after globbled block 21:57
22:05 hudnix left 22:06 mizioumt joined 22:12 mizioumt2 joined 22:13 iblechbot left
TimToady std: for map {...}, lines {...}; 22:18
p6eval std 26719: ( no output )
22:20 mizioumt1 left
moritz_ sh: line 1: 20667 CPU time limit exceeded /usr/bin/perl tryfile /tmp/Gzrvw40wnX >> /tmp/LOYjRoTuw2 2>&1 22:21
there's a lot of strain on the server right now :(
std: for map {...}, lines {...};
p6eval std 26719: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Function 'lines' needs parens to avoid gobbling block at /tmp/haeUnR3ByV line 1:␤------> for map {...}, lines {...};␤Missing block (apparently gobbled by 'lines') at /tmp/haeUnR3ByV line 1:␤------> for map {...}, lines {...};␤
.....
22:23 hudnix joined 22:25 rocket_guatemala joined
pugs_svn r26720 | rocket++ | Added smartlinks to test files. 22:26
22:26 payload left
jnthn afk; Rakudo day tomorrow. :-) 22:27
22:27 mizioumt left 22:31 exodist left 22:34 rocket_guatemala left 22:39 Whiteknight left 22:42 Whiteknight joined 22:53 nihiliad left 23:20 donaldh left, donaldh joined 23:28 eternaleye joined 23:31 mizioumt2 left 23:32 skids joined 23:38 amoc left 23:39 fridim left 23:51 eternaleye left 23:53 DemoFreak left

Powered by Cro and the Raku® Programming Language.

Please report any issues / comments / feature requests as an issue on App::Raku::Log.

Thank you!