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Set by Tene on 14 May 2009.
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pugs_svn r27056 | jdlugosz++ | [S03] reword example due to prefix = no longer existing. Presumably the effect still applies if you were to have one, even though it is no longer a built-in operator. 00:47
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pmichaud I've just updated the "ins" branch in the Rakudo repository -- it attempts to build Rakudo from an installed parrot instead of the build copy. I could use testing of the branch, especially on Mac/Win platforms. 04:36
lambdabot pmichaud: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
pmichaud If anyone can do a quick test and report back any problems (I expect them), that would be great.
(1) clone rakudo repo
(2) git checkout -b ins 04:37
(3) perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot
(4) make
Oops, (2) above should be 04:38
(2) git checkout --track -b ins origin/ins
sitaram pmichaud: git checkout -b ins mirrors "master". Do you mean we should checkout a tracking branch for origin/ins?
oh ok thanks
just saw that amend
pmichaud yes; still learning git branch commands here :-) 04:39
sitaram aaargh... I'm behind a proxy; will have to do this at home later (no idea how to make SVN work over an HTTP proxy...)
sorry 04:40
pmichaud: in recent gits, "git checkout -t origin/ins" will infer that you want a local branch called ins to track the remote one
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pmichaud sitaram: very good to know, thanks! 04:41
sitaram you're welcome! 04:42
pmichaud: ok, faked the ssl bit using socat and a tunnel and a fake entry in /etc/hosts; trying the make now... (my machine is not exactly the fastest :/) 04:52
/usr/bin/ld: cannot open output file dynext/perl6_group.so: No such file or directory 04:53
hmmm
pmichaud might need another git pull 04:54
I just pushed about 3 more updates.
(I'm trying it on a separate system as well, and finding all of the pieces I missed.) 04:55
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pugs_svn r27057 | masak++ | [S03] supplied a missing " 05:18
meppuru good night 05:19
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sitaram trying... (was away for a while) 05:26
succeeded... no errors in make 05:29
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masak morning, metacamels. 05:33
mberends masak, morning! 05:37
masak o/
I'll only be here a while.
excursion day at work today.
mberends I'm moving .nl -> .uk, so mainly afk for the next week or two 05:38
masak mberends: oh! moving is always a lot of work. best of luck with that. 05:39
mberends :)
masak rakudo: class H is Hash {}; my H $h .= new; $h{"foo"} = 1; $h<bar baz> = 2, 3; say $h.perl 05:40
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«{"foo" => 1, "bar" => 2, "baz" => 3}␤»
masak man, Rakudo is frighteningly good these days.
subclassing core classes! I so expected that to fail somehow...
hm, but let's say I want to embed a hash as an attribute instead, only exposing the 'exists' and 'delete' methods... how would I write that? 05:41
mberends you can probably not remove methods. 05:43
you could break 'em with neutered overrides
masak no, but that's not what I want. I want to keep the hash as a private attribute.
and then just delegate those two methods somehow.
like, with a keyword of some sort.
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pmichaud handles 05:44
masak yes...
mberends is 'handles' implemented fully?
masak is slowly setting up the trap
please show me how... :)
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pmichaud I don't know about fully, but I think it's implemented somewhat. 05:44
mberends couldn't get it working in Temporal :(
pmichaud class Foo { has %.h handles <exists deletes>; ... } 05:45
er, "delete"
masak rakudo: class Foo { has %!h handles <exists delete> }
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«The use of a %hash with the handles trait verb is reserved␤in Main (/tmp/jtfUb4FG87:2)␤»
masak and bam.
pmichaud I have no clue. 05:46
masak it's in S12. :/
pmichaud right, but jnthn++ is the guy who implements "handles" :-)
masak this is probably my least favourite misfeature of Perl 6 as it stands.
pmichaud: ok, I'll talk to him. :)
maybe he can explain why delegation to hashes sucks. 05:47
pmichaud ("handles" is all about delegation, so I'm.... delegating :-)
masak 哈哈
pmichaud there's always.... 05:49
class Foo { has %!h; method exists(*@_) { %!h.(@_) } ... } 05:50
class Foo { has %!h; method exists(*@_) { %!h.exists(@_) } ... }
masak yes, there is.
just looking for a reason why I should jump through hoops here, and not Perl 6.
pmichaud well, figure out a way to resolve the conjecture in S12 :-) 05:51
although that still means you're the one jumping through the hoop, instead of TimToady++ and/or jnthn++ :-P
(yes, I'm being far less than helpful this evening)
masak pmichaud: well, it's a diffent-level hoop, so that's ok.
pmichaud oh! Maybe
class Foo { has Hash $!h handles <delete exists>; ... } 05:52
masak it's on the caring-about-Perl-6 level, not the writing-simple-programs level.
pmichaud: that one still counts as jumping through a hoop...
pmichaud just because the sigil is a $ instead of a % ? 05:53
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masak pmichaud: yes! it's me bending to the strange wishes of a Perl 6 conjecture. 05:54
pmichaud ah, okay.
(yes, I'm being far less than helpful this morning)
masak pmichaud: what if I wanted to type the values, for example? then it'd be logical to write 'Dog %h'.
pmichaud my Hash of Dog $!h
masak ah, ok. 05:55
but still...
pmichaud yes, but still...
masak rakudo: say "abc" ~~ m ☃.(.).☄ 05:56
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«abc␤»
masak did somebody report that one?
pmichaud I don't know if it got rakudobugged.
it did get mentioned during the design meeting
I think my statement was
masak rakudobugs
pmichaud "What in the world are you doing to the regex engine?!?" 05:57
masak :)
in a very spaced-out way, a snowman and a meteor are kinda symmetric.
but maybe not in the required way...
pmichaud rakudo: say "abc" ~~ m ☃.(.).☄; say 'ok'; 05:58
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«abc␤ok␤»
pmichaud rakudo: say q☃.(.).☄;
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "\u2603.(.).\u2604;"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
pmichaud rakudo: say "abc" ~~ m ☃.(.).☄; say $0; 05:59
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«abc␤b␤»
pmichaud looks like it must be something in the regex parser
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Sark23 hi 08:09
what mean with for @words -> $w { %res{$w}++ } ?
@words is a array ?
lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
Sark23 rakudo: for @words -> $w { %res{$w}++ }
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Symbol '@words' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/LrGzIDVlCb:2)␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3225)␤»
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Sark23 rakudo: my $word="test";(^$word.chars).map: {substr(my $tmp = $word,$_,1)='';$tmp}; 08:24
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«No applicable methods.␤in method Any::map (/tmp/sVA9Xk03YT:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/sVA9Xk03YT:2)␤»
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viklund_ Sark23: Yes @words is an array 08:34
rakudo: my %res; my @words = <foo bar baz foo>; for @words -> $w { %res{$w}++ }; %res.perl.say 08:35
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«{"foo" => 2, "bar" => 1, "baz" => 1}␤»
Sark23 ok thank you 08:37
but what mean perl6 with (^$word.chars).map: {substr(my $tmp = $word,$_,1)='';$tmp}
word.chars are length of token and substr from 0 to length and set all = '' ? 08:38
viklund_ Sark23: I'm not sure, where did you find it?
Sark23 www.riffraff.info/2007/5/20/a-spell...rl6-part-3 08:39
under sub deleteion
./deleteion/deletion/
viklund_ I'm curious how that method is called, I find the ^ confusing 08:43
but that code is 2 years old 08:44
my guess is that a lot of things have changed since then
or rather, I know that a lot of things have changed since then
Sark23 ok thanks 08:45
viklund_ ahh, right
it's starting to dawn on me now
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viklund_ Sark23: substr doesn't work in rakudo right now but that code is trying to generate a list of words where each word has one character removed 08:51
so delete("test") -> ( "est", "tst", "tet", "tes" ) 08:52
(^$word.chars): The ^ means create the list upto arg. ^3 -> (0,1,2) 08:53
so the number is $_ in the map, ie the position of the character to remove
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DanielC moin 08:56
viklund_ DanielC: o/
DanielC o/ 08:57
viklund_ did you manage to call the md5 from rakudo y-day?
DanielC viklund_: I am this || close. But for some reason sprintf doesn't seem to work inside Q:PIR
viklund_ hrmpf
DanielC pastebin.com/m40db8f
viklund_ but it works as pure-pir? 08:58
DanielC yeah
If we can get that little script to work (pastebin) we are set.
I left a message for pmichaud with lambdabot.
I believe he's the one who implemented Q:PIR
viklund_ ok 09:00
DanielC I use sprintf to convert the list of integers into a hex string. If worse comes to worse, I could do the same thing by hand, but it would be a bit ugly.
viklund_ can't you return it to rakudo and do it in perl6?
DanielC yeah
viklund_ then you don't have to do it by hand at least ;)
DanielC oh, you mean the stream of integers. 09:01
viklund_ yes
DanielC Uhmm... I haven't thought of that.
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DanielC maybe 09:01
I'll need to think about that.
viklund_ but I wonder how you return a FixedPMCArray... 09:02
DanielC yeah
If I could do that, that would be enough.
viklund_ its simple! 09:03
heureka
DanielC pastebin.com/m6c84e4dd
That is the code as it stands today.
viklund_ ok
DanielC That's what we need to fix.
How do you return a FixedPMCArray ? 09:04
viklund_ my @r = Q:PIR { $P0 = new 'FixedPMCArray' \n ... %r = $P0 };
that works
DanielC cool
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viklund_ I need to go afk for a while 09:04
DanielC ok
I'll try to get the thing working.
barney DanielC: You could also return $S0, and do the splitting in Perl6 09:06
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DanielC barney: That's a good idea. 09:06
I'll do that. 09:07
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DanielC pastebin.com/m7fa6e223 <-- I'm doing something wrong with my sprintf statement, but I don't know what. 09:15
If you run this, you see that all the integers look ok, but the sprintf seems to return nothing. 09:16
I'm an idiot. 09:17
.= is wrong.
pastebin.com/m13d015b0 <--- YAY!!! It works! 09:19
barney: Thanks for the idea. It's way easier to manipulate the string in Perl 6 than in PIR :-)
payload feed operators (<==, ==>) aren't implemented, right? 09:22
DanielC I just used a sample text from Wikipedia to confirm that the md5 function does the right thing. Yay.
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Matt-W Good morning #perl6 09:22
DanielC moin 09:23
Matt-W rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3, 4; my @b; @b <== @a; say @b.perl;
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«No applicable methods.␤in Main (/tmp/xkDi0OCWpq:2)␤»
Matt-W something isn't :)
or I'm doing it wrong, that's always a possibility
should've had some breakfast 09:24
jnthn no, feeds ops not implemented.
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Sark23 thx viklund 09:27
DanielC jnthn: Is there a place to get a list of builtins that are not implemented yet? 09:33
jnthn Not a complete one.
DanielC I was thinking, if some hypothetical person wanted to try their luck at implementing a builtin, where would they go? 09:34
jnthn Probably S32, or the test suite.
DanielC ok 09:35
Look for a test that fails and implement it.
jnthn Well, or that we ain't running 09:36
DanielC ok
jnthn A lot of built-ins have test scripts.
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lichtkind mberends: hi 09:49
DanielC @seen mberends 09:50
lambdabot mberends is in #perl6. I last heard mberends speak 4h 5m 27s ago.
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barney in NQP: should $( $<statement_list> ) now be written as $<statement_list>.ast ? 10:44
jnthn barney: Yes 10:46
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barney Tnx, I'm just resyncing actions.pm in Pipp with actions.pm in Rakudo 10:48
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DanielC @seen masak 11:03
lambdabot I saw masak leaving #perl6 4h 48m 52s ago, and .
sjohnson 4hello
DanielC hi
I miss masak and mberends. I have code I want to show them :-) 11:04
working code++
sjohnson oh he will be around 11:06
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DanielC I have written a nice digest function for masak's November wiki, and I have made progress on the module management library that mberends and I are working on. 11:07
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DanielC Currently November stores passwords in plain text because they don't have a digest function. So I wrote one that uses embedded PIR. 11:08
sjohnson a digest function for his perl 6 readers' digest blog? 11:09
DanielC MD5, SHA1, SHA256, etc
hash
DanielC would love to see a Perl 6 Readers Digest magazine 11:10
sjohnson what about CRC32 digest
DanielC Nope, not that one.
CRC is meant to detect errors, not to encrypt passwords.
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DanielC You want a one-way trapdoor function. 11:11
sjohnson DanielC: it was used to encrypt passwords in the BBS days
and in the PKZIP days too
obviously a very poor choice, but you can't say it was never used to do that
DanielC Bad idea.
Did I say it was never used for that? 11:12
sjohnson "04:10:50 DanielC | CRC is meant to detect errors, not to encrypt passwords"
DanielC and that is correct.
CRC is meant to detect errors, not to encrypt passwords.
That doesn't mean that people won't misuse it
sjohnson well, who is to say that was its original intention only?
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DanielC But passwords is not what CRC was designed for. 11:13
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DanielC sjohnson: Do you know what CRC stands for? 11:13
sjohnson yes
DanielC Doesn't that give you a hint of what it's for?
sjohnson cyclic redunancy check
im just saying, there may be a chance, that back in the day, the people who designed that also maybe thought it was good enough to digest passwords too, 11:14
that's all i am saying
DanielC CRC was meant to detect errors in data transmission. Never to be a one-way trapdoor function.
sjohnson i dont know if it's true or not, but i am reserving jugement
DanielC sigh
CRC is an error-detecting code. 11:15
sjohnson SHA's are used for hashing passwords in some cases, right?
DanielC SHA was designed as a cryptographic hash function, yes.
sjohnson SHA's are also used to check that files weren't changed as well, right?
ie, sha1sum -c
clintongormley recommends ROT13 for ultimate password protection! 11:16
DanielC You can use them for that, that's a popular use.
But their design is as a one-way trapdoor function.
The SHA family would be a bit expensive if all you want to do is check for errors, but today CPU power is cheap, so why not.
sjohnson well, i know why CRC was made and what it is used for, you dont have to explaint that to me, that i understand 11:17
i am just curious if people that designed also thought 'hey, this is good enough for passwords too'
that's all, i just want the proof, that they agreed or disagreed with that 1 statement
DanielC You don't seem to. You said you were "reserving judgment" as to whether CRC was designed to hash passwords or not.
sjohnson that's right 11:18
clintongormley locks sjohnson and DanielC in a room together, to fight it out 11:19
sjohnson just because it stands for "Cyclic Redunancy Check"
is not solid proof
DanielC CRC was designed to be fast, easy to implement, and suitable for detecting accidental error. Making a one-way trapdoor function was not a design goal. You can read the RFC if you like.
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DanielC The publication paper that introduced CRC says that it is for error detection. 11:20
sjohnson ok, that is what i wanted to know
DanielC The IEEE paper that made it a standard said the same.
sigh
sjohnson what's wrong 11:21
you keep sighing
DanielC Just that it took so long to convince you, nevermind.
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DanielC CRC is basically just polynomial division. 11:22
barney used CRC for sanity checking DNA sequences
DanielC barney: What do you do for a living? Are you a bioinformatics guy? 11:23
sjohnson well, sorry to annoy you then
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sjohnson but i liked hearing what you had to say afterall 11:23
DanielC ok
sjohnson i just wasn't sure if at the time they thought "hey! this can be used for passwords!" like bill gates thought that "they'll never need more than 640k of ram!"
DanielC I'm glad I siad something worth hearing.
s/siad/said/ 11:24
barney DanielC: I used to work in a bininformatics company, doing freelancing now
sjohnson DanielC: you see what i mean though, right? just my curiosity?
DanielC sjohnson: sure 11:25
sjohnson i will take your word for it, that no, in no way, did they intend that use
viklund_ always encrypts his files with ROT13 - twice!
sjohnson viklund_: use caesar instead
DanielC barney: I hear Perl is very big in bioinformatics.
viklund_ DanielC: I can give you commit rights to November
sjohnson rot13 is too easy to crack
DanielC viklund_!!!!
viklund_: Good to see you. I have the digest program!
Matt-W rot13 twice is really convenient 11:26
it's my favourite encryption mechanism
for ease of use, you just can't beat it
viklund_ yes, it's the best
DanielC viklund_: You'll love it. Look: pastebin.com/m18d1263c
viklund_ nice, pluggable!
viklund_ reads the Q:PIR with joy 11:27
what does comb do again? 11:28
DanielC array
viklund_ rakudo: my $t="asdf"; $t.comb.perl.say 11:29
DanielC rakudo: "hello".comb.perl.say
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«["a", "s", "d", "f"]␤»
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p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«["h", "e", "l", "l", "o"]␤» 11:29
viklund_ ah
how is comb different from split?
DanielC they are opposites
With split you say what parts you want to remove, and with comb you say what parts you want to keep.
viklund_ rakudo: my $t="asdf"; $t.split.perl.say
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'split'␤in Main (/tmp/5F7YMHMUuJ:2)␤»
viklund_ ahh 11:30
rakudo: my $t="asdf"; $t.comb('as'.perl.say
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "('as'.perl"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
viklund_ rakudo: my $t="asdf"; $t.comb('as').perl.say
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'comb'␤in Main (/tmp/XQ7QmJXWc6:2)␤»
viklund_ rakudo: my $t="asdf"; $t.comb(/a|s/).perl.say
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«["a", "s"]␤»
viklund_ rakudo: my $t="asdf"; $t.comb(<a s>).perl.say
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'comb'␤in Main (/tmp/FV1CkRkn2v:2)␤»
DanielC rakudo: "1a2b3c".comb(/\d/).perl.say
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«["1", "2", "3"]␤»
viklund_ oh well..
nice
and now is the time to add that to November.pm ;) 11:31
DanielC :-)
viklund_ DanielC: what's your github ID?
DanielC DanielC I think.
How do I check?
DanielC goes to github
viklund_ log on to github?
DanielC dcarrera 11:32
That was going to be my next guess :-)
viklund_ now you can commit to November ;)
DanielC thanks :) 11:33
viklund_ if you want to, you can update the log_in method in November.pm to use the digest function, there are some commented lines that describes how it should be done. 11:34
It's more or less copied from how it would be in p5
welcome aboard
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DanielC thanks 11:35
I'll edit November.pm later today. 11:36
viklund_ please do
and you can also join the channel #november-wiki if you want to 11:37
DanielC How many people in that channel?
Are all those people working on November? 11:38
viklund_ not really
Matt-W web.pm is also discussed there
which is definitely a related topic
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viklund_ thanks Matt-W 11:39
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Matt-W it's why I was there for a bit :) 11:40
viklund DanielC: that digest function looks so simple, it's really nice 11:46
DanielC :-D
clintongormley so is all the MD5 etc stuff available via Parrot? 11:47
DanielC yup!
Parrot gets them through OpenSSL
So it's very fast.
clintongormley ok - very nice 11:48
i'm guessing that SMOPS won't support PIR
which means that libraries that use it are Parrot only
DanielC yeah
clintongormley that's a bit sad 11:49
DanielC yeah
Matt-W it's an inevitable consequence of having multiple implementations
clintongormley so either module authors need to have different backends
or SMOPS needs to understand PIR as well, which is unlikely to happen
DanielC I can't imagine how SMOPS could understand PIR. 11:50
Matt-W it's really much the same thing as platform-specific C backends for Perl 5 modules
DanielC y
Matt-W PIR is just part of the platform if you're running on Rakudo Perl
clintongormley yes
but in XS, unless you're calling (eg) a Win32 C library, your C code would be pretty much the same across OSes, no? 11:51
viklund reads about the swedish bloggosspehere, Hume ans Spinoza...
clintongormley says this knowing very little about C
Matt-W that entirely depends what you're calling
and what you're planning on running it on
most of the POSIX API is available in most places 11:52
but most other things are rather less reliable
clintongormley ok
Matt-W and you don't need t ocall out to POSIX anyway, Perl provides most of that for you :)
DanielC clintongormley: Maybe it is possible for SMOP to support PIR if the user also has Parrot installed. Kind of like saying that you can use XS if you have a C compiler.
Matt-W It might be possible for it to embed parrot I suppose 11:54
payload hmm, maybe one can translate PIR to Perl 6 so it is useable in SMOP ^^ 11:56
DanielC payload: That may not be feasible in the general case.
Matt-W rakudo: my $a = 'aa'; $a.=uc; $a.say; 11:57
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«AA␤»
DanielC payload: How would you translate "$P1 = loadlib 'digest_group'" to Perl ?
Matt-W How indeed would you translate to Perl a bunch of PIR designed to expose functions to Perl which Perl doesn't have?
DanielC Exactly. 11:58
payload i use a bigger smiley next time ^^ ;) ;-) 11:59
DanielC Ah... that's what that was.
I didn't realize ^^ was a smiley. I was wondering what it meant. 12:00
Matt-W there seems to be a set of horizontal smileys which I've never learned 12:01
payload it's a japanese smiley
Matt-W but which are common in some groups
oooh
that makes a lot of sense
DanielC ^.^
payload yes, with nose
Matt-W that fits with who uses them elsewhere
payload ^·^ with a middle dot 12:02
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DanielC <:-) dumb questions smiley 12:03
d:-) Baseball cap. 12:04
&:-) Bad hair day.
O:-) Angel.
clintongormley damn - i just deleted a subversion branch which i meant to merge 12:05
any ideas how i can reverse the delete without having to check out all branches first?
DanielC dunno
mberends DanielC, hi! your file-read-and-digest code is great! 12:20
DanielC mberends is here!
hi
Ok, you saw the code. :-) 12:21
mberends sorry, afk a lot because of relocation :(
DanielC np moving house?
mberends yup, to London 12:22
Matt-W hmm
never fancied living there myself
was offered an interview for a good perl job once, but... london
mberends yes, I know, but needs must 12:23
commuting to @jobs will be easier 12:24
the air feels like it has 2% less oxygen than over the rest of the country
DanielC I went to London once. I thought it was an interesting city.
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clintongormley i lived in london for 5 years - and i go there once a month 12:30
i enjoy being there, but the irritation of being subject to the transport in london makes me never want to live there again
not to put a damper on your move, mberends :)
mberends DanielC, so I'm here in between other tasks. There is a Makefile and PIR driven test framework almost ready to commit 12:31
DanielC mberends: Sounds good.
mberends clintongormley, been there an suffered the transport hassles quite often. I think I'll join the hated brigade of cyclists... 12:32
clintongormley cycling in london is good - just beware of the trucks 12:33
DanielC If half the people used bicycles the traffic problems would be cut in half.
clintongormley what area of london are you in? and where will yo ube working?
Matt-W I quite like it to visit
but I can't imagine living there
DanielC Drivers in London shouldn't get mad at cyclists. Would they rather you have a car?
mberends living initially in Bermondsey, working in The City and all about 12:34
clintongormley ahhh - easy bicycle commute then 12:35
mberends I'd like to look at Barbican in a year or two
clintongormley nice
i used to cycle through hyde park every day - good for the soul
mberends very nice
clintongormley especially at 8am on a frosty winter morning 12:36
very pretty, and deserted
Matt-W I like hyde park 12:37
last time I was in london I spent quite some time enjoying it
and then I nearly missed my train :)
it is a dangerous place for that
clintongormley heh
Matt-W I got lost in some memories of other times there
mberends Southwark Park will be close by, It's smaller though. 12:38
Matt-W still a park :)
mberends :) with a fountain, a bandstand, large lawns, it should be very pleasant when it's sunny 12:39
Matt-W :) 12:40
sounds good
where're you moving from?
mberends Vught, NL. about 30 mins by car from the Belgian border. Great place, but lots of time spent travelling to customers 12:42
also near Eindhoven, of PSV (football) fame
Matt-W well london will be a bit different then :) 12:43
although london's a bit different to everywhere
nowhere seems quite like it
mberends indeed, and it helps that I rather like the diversity of London 12:44
well, gotta do @stuff(); afk & 12:45
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Matt-W oh it definitely has good points 12:45
12:47 spage joined
pmurias re SMOP supporting pir it shouldn't be very hard if you embed parrot, smop already has an initial p5 embedding support 12:48
12:48 spage left 12:54 payload joined
[particle]1 std: "x().!" 12:55
p6eval std 27057: ( no output )
12:55 [particle]1 is now known as [particle]
[particle] std: "x().'!'" 12:56
p6eval std 27057: ( no output )
[particle] std: "x().\"!\""
p6eval std 27057: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 36m␤»
[particle] ...okay...
13:00 meppl joined 13:07 jferrero left 13:14 FurnaceBoy joined
rjh CRC is not designed to be secure 13:19
but it is tasty! 13:20
viklund_ DanielC: do you know if there's a list of parrot-libs with descriptions somewhere? 13:24
like the md5 lib 13:25
(or digest really)
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TimToady [particle]: if you're expecting x() to start an interpolation, it won't 14:04
[particle] i'm not
TimToady std: "x().!"
p6eval std 27057: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 36m␤»
jnthn rakudo: say "x().!" 14:05
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«x().!␤»
jnthn IIUC, that's the correct output - nothing to interpolate.
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TimToady yes, the only thing that changed recently is "$foo." 14:05
14:05 alanhaggai left
[particle] what does (no output) mean as a response from std? 14:05
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TimToady it means it's recompiling, usually 14:06
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[particle] ah, well there you go. i expected "ok ..." and got no output 14:06
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[particle] i was mainly making sure that the quoting of methods inside quotes behaved as advertised 14:07
TimToady it should make a new one in a new directory and then rename the whole directory, i think
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TimToady but it doesn't even try any methods in your examples 14:08
std: "&x().!"
p6eval std 27057: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 49m␤»
[particle] std: "x().\"!\"" 14:09
p6eval std 27057: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 36m␤»
TimToady just a string
never sees the . as a potential method call
std: "$x."
p6eval std 27057: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Variable $x is not predeclared at /tmp/cJLGl1pbIG line 1:␤------> "$x."␤ok 00:04 36m␤»
TimToady that one used to try . as a method call 14:10
[particle] oh, duh.
i read your two most recent spec commits and conflated them
TimToady std: "$x."!""
p6eval std 27057: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Variable $x is not predeclared at /tmp/E7o4Qc0GS6 line 1:␤------> "$x."!""␤ok 00:04 36m␤»
TimToady std: "$x."!"()"
p6eval std 27057: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Variable $x is not predeclared at /tmp/h5qHnTV3MK line 1:␤------> "$x."!"()"␤ok 00:04 36m␤»
[particle] assumed $x.'!' syntax applied to "$x."
DanielC viklund_: I just looked at parrot/src/dynpc
[particle] that's what happens with first-thing-in-the-morning-spec-reading 14:11
viklund_ DanielC: thx
TimToady well, if it doesn't find a trailing () it'll throw it out anyway
and just interpolate the $x
but it just used to get very confused on "$x." in trying to find that last ()
[particle] std: $x().{'!'} 14:12
p6eval std 27057: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Variable $x is not predeclared at /tmp/OrEhR6R2AW line 1:␤------> $x().{'!'}␤ok 00:02 36m␤»
14:12 Meldrake_ left
[particle] std: &x().{'!'} 14:12
p6eval std 27057: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 49m␤»
14:12 Meldrake_ joined
TimToady std: &x()."!" 14:13
p6eval std 27057: ( no output )
TimToady recompiling again, I think
[particle] yeah, that's annoying.
rjh hmm, i always assumed 'no output' meant 'not ok' 14:14
[particle] std: &x().'!'
p6eval std 27057: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 49m␤»
[particle] std: &x()."!"
p6eval std 27057: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 49m␤»
TimToady both of those are fine outside of quotes 14:15
and fine inside of quotes as long as you add another ()
the recent change only disallowed whitespace inside "&x()."a method"()" 14:16
so it backtracks and sees "&x()." as the quote 14:17
this should blow up:
std: "&x()."a method"()"
p6eval std 27057: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Syntax error (two terms in a row?) at /tmp/EbgJkZIZqT line 1:␤------> "&x()."a method"()"␤ expecting any of:␤ POST␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infix stopper␤ postfix␤ postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤ standard stopper␤
..statement modifier loop␤ termin…
TimToady std: "&x().'a method'()" 14:18
p6eval std 27057: ( no output )
TimToady that's also okay
std: "&x().'a method'()" 14:19
p6eval std 27057: ( no output )
TimToady std: "&x().'a method'()" 14:20
p6eval std 27057: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 49m␤» 14:21
14:21 masak joined
viklund_ hello masak 14:22
masak viklund_: hi.
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masak DanielC++ # sub digest 14:24
DanielC :-D 14:25
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DanielC masak: I was hoping you could help me write a 'Digest' module. 14:25
masak DanielC: sure.
TimToady wonders what a Perl 6 Word Power page would look like 14:26
DanielC masak: Because the digest sub uses Parrot, I was thinking that the use statement should be "use Digest:from<Parrot>" or similar. But I have no idea how to do that.
masak DanielC: I've never seen someone do that in actual code.
DanielC Me neither. 14:27
masak DanielC: it's a nice thought, but don't expect it to work out-of-the-box.
DanielC I guess Rakudo doesn't implement it yet...
masak guess not.
it probably parses but ignores it.
(I think.)
DanielC Ok, let's just do a regular Digest module and worry about the :from later.
pmichaud good morning #perl6 14:28
DanielC o/ pmichaud
Matt-W wouldn't use Digest:from<Parrot> be for a module written in pure PIR?
rather than a Perl 6 module which happens to use some inline PIR
DanielC Matt-W: How about a module that *requires* PIR? 14:29
jnthn I'd think so.
Matt-W is it Perl 6 using PIR though
it's still a Perl 6 module 14:30
masak mornin', pm.
DanielC But it won't work on SMOP
Matt-W what it does inside isn't the concern of the person using it
no, but that's not the concern of the person using it either
masak DanielC: making a module is as easy as putting a .pm file in a lib/ directory.
viklund_ is thinking about writing his own hex repr -> unicode converter 14:31
masak DanielC: but a nice extra touch is probably to begin it with 'module Digest' and then export the digest sub.
DanielC How do you export?
masak DanielC: have a look at Tags.pm in the Web.pm repo.
[particle] sub digest is export {...}; 14:32
DanielC thanks
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DanielC pastebin.com/m1e3e8c9b <-- that simple? 14:33
masak maybe even 'is export(:DEFAULT)'...
DanielC: no, the 'is export' comes after the params, I think...
rjh please don't export things by default
viklund_ is feeling shifty...
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[particle] that's a perl 5 argument :P 14:34
DanielC masak: Ok. Should I upload it to the November wiki? viklund_ gave me access.
masak DanielC: I'd like that, thanks.
viklund_ DanielC++
masak DanielC: be sure to add yourself to the AUTHORS file while you're at it.
rjh ooh, nice
DanielC :) 14:35
yay, I'm an author now.
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pmichaud_ once again my connection to freenode has been severed 14:35
14:35 payload left
pmichaud ....and restored 14:36
14:36 pmichaud_ left
Matt-W :( 14:36
pmichaud I'm still looking for folks who can try out the new build system in the 'ins' branch of rakudo
Matt-W ooh 14:37
new toys to play with?
where do I sign up?
pmichaud they're still potentially broken toys
s/potentially/likely/
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Matt-W I'll put it in a different place to my normal rakudo 14:37
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Matt-W oh wait 14:38
DanielC masak: I just did "git push". I sorted the AUTHORS file alphabetically. I hope that's ok.
Matt-W git branches
pmichaud instructions for building the branch at gist.github.com/127925
Matt-W different
viklund_ checks new stuff in November 14:39
masak DanielC: perfectly ok. it should have been already, actually.
Matt-W pmichaud: first thing I notice is error messages in Configure.pl saying it can't find gmake 14:40
pmichaud: although it carries on and compiles parrot
pmichaud Matt-W: what platform are you on...? 14:41
Matt-W ...which then, apparently, isn't there
Ubuntu Jaunty
pmichaud that's odd.
why would it be looking for gmake?
Matt-W I've got GNU make, but they don't provide a gmake alias
I don't know
viklund_ afk -> out in the sun 14:42
masak DanielC: oh, you sorted them by first name instead of last name. :) sure, why not.
DanielC masak: I would be happy to sort by last name too if you like.
masak DanielC: that's the way it was until you edited the file. :P
DanielC sorry!
masak doesn't matter. at all.
Matt-W pmichaud: second thing to notice is that it behaves if I realclean it myself before running Configure. Put it down to switching branches, perhaps. 14:43
masak I'm fine either way.
DanielC I didn't notice that because the names are written <firstname> <lastname>
masak aye.
pmichaud oh yes, a realclean is probably in order
DanielC So way I saw them, it looked random.
masak probably better this way, then.
Matt-W waits for Parrot to build
masak anyway, thanks for the module!
pmichaud It should work fairly well on Jaunty (that's what I'm running)
DanielC We can write the names as <lastname>, <firstname> That's very common.
Matt-W heh I hope it does then
pmichaud I'm curious about Win and Mac systems
I really should see about setting up a Win environment for me to test with 14:44
masak DanielC: if you create your own repository for it, we can make a dependency in November.
Matt-W I could get it up and running on windows 7 RC at some point, but the only dev environment on there at the moment is Visual C#
pmichaud: hmm no help, I get
Reading configuration information from parrot/install/bin/parrot_config ...
Parrot revision r39503 required (currently r0)
To automatically checkout (svn) and build a copy of parrot r39503,
try re-running Configure.pl with the '--gen-parrot' option.
Or, use the '--parrot-config' option to explicitly specify
the location of parrot_config to be used to build Rakudo Perl.
masak but it might be nice to get the module to do some actual work first...
DanielC masak: Someone should make a place to store Perl 6 modules. It's not good to have them scattered around the way they are today.
Matt-W sorry, should've nopasted that 14:45
pmichaud Matt-W: what do you get with parrot/install/bin/parrot_config --dump
(I'm expecting segfault)
Matt-W pmichaud: a large pile of key-value pairs
no segfault
pmichaud weeeeird
may try Configure.pl --gen-parrot again? 14:46
*maybe
Matt-W tries that
it's definitely building it
pmichaud it shouldn't try to rebuild parrot a second time
masak DanielC: yes, like a central Perl 6 archive network of some kind.
DanielC :-) 14:47
it should be comprehensive too.
Matt-W pmichaud: it seems to have cleaned it as its first action
masak DanielC: oh, right.
pmichaud cleaned Parrot?
Matt-W looked like it
it went by rather fast
pmichaud that's possible.
DanielC masak: Now, seriously, we do need a place to put Perl 6 modules until "CPAN6" shows up.
masak DanielC: you'll have to excuse me if I don't sit around for that happening, but instead using github as an intermediary. :)
Matt-W pmichaud: and again, it thinks I have parrot r0
pmichaud DanielC: the perl6 repo awaits
DanielC pmichaud: ??? 14:48
masak DanielC: the nice thing about having a separate repo for Digest.pm is that other projects can then use it too.
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pmichaud DanielC: I freely create repos in the perl6 account on github 14:48
DanielC masak: ok
pmichaud (and give out commit bits)
Matt-W pmichaud: parrot_config is saying "revision => '0'"
pmichaud .....I wonder why '0' ? 14:49
DanielC pmichaud: Great. Do you want to make a repo for Digest.pm or a general repo like "modules" or "cpan6" ?
pmichaud DanielC: I can go either way
probably easier to have a Digest.pm repo for now
or we could do "modules"
or "libraries" 14:50
DanielC Ok. I was about to say "modules" because it seems odd to have a repo for just one file.
pmichaud or something like that
Matt-W I've got a whole repo for Form.pm
of course, that comes with its tests
and its support modules
pmichaud definitely _not_ cpan6, that seems like placing a very large match next to a very large container of flammable material
Matt-W gets a fire blanket
DanielC pmichaud: indeed
pmichaud: "modules" is nice. 14:51
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DanielC I think it'll help to have the Perl 6 modules in one place. 14:52
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pmichaud created 14:53
added "dcarrera" as collaborator
DanielC yay
Matt-W pmichaud: configure.pl needs better error handling. I just threw away my parrot, tree and then it realised I didn't have svn installed, but carried on with some other stuff afterwards even though I asked for --gen-parrot. 14:55
pmichaud Matt-W: any chance you have some other parrot installed somewhere?
Matt-W pmichaud: not a tiny weeny little chance
pmichaud so, that means a big one? ;-)
Matt-W less chance than the chance that the sun went nova thirty seconds ago
masak DanielC: this sounds a bit like perl6-examples. what's the difference?
DanielC masak: It's for modules, not examples. 14:56
viklund lol
DanielC As in.. usable modules, with the .pm extension and all, and maybe tests.
masak mberends: maybe you should move your modules to 'modules', then. :)
Matt-W 'maybe' tests?
viklund perl6-tests?
Matt-W there must be tests!
masak please no.
DanielC Matt-W: Ok, definitely tests :)
pmichaud Matt-W: it carried on with some other stuff? Seems like it couldn't have gotten far without parrot installed 14:57
DanielC Matt-W: Maybe you can help me with that?
TimToady maybe the sun could carry on with some other stuff
pmichaud so if you threw away your parrot, it had to have found a parrot somewhere
Matt-W pmichaud: it didn't get far, but it didn't stop straight away
argh
it just built parrot
now it can't find parrot_config!
pmichaud ....but
but
how is it getting parrot if you don't have svn installed?
viklund perl6-obfu?
DanielC pmichaud: Digest.pm is now in perl6/modules
Matt-W I installed it :)
pmichaud ah 14:58
I'm still confused, but okay.
Matt-W I'm confused too
let me make sure everything's all clean and tidy and try again
DanielC Matt-W / masak: I don't know how to do tests. Is there a program you use? Can I get some guidance? 14:59
masak DanielC: take a look at November or Druid or Form.
DanielC ok
masak no special program. just write your tests in t/.
I did write a couple of Test:: modules though. 15:00
Test::InputOutput and Test::Ix.
mberends++ wrote Test::Difference
Matt-W I just use Test.pm from rakudo 15:03
what does Test::Ix do?
masak yes, that's often enough.
Matt-W: hang on, I'll show you.
Matt-W: github.com/masak/druid/blob/master/...me-rules.t
Matt-W: Test::Ix provides the count-tests and run-tests subs. they traverse the array and count/run the tests. 15:04
Matt-W pmichaud: okay, it was my fault 15:07
pmichaud: rakudo's building now 15:08
masak: so it uses the strings to construct subroutine names to run
masak: I like the look o fthat 15:09
pmichaud: build successful
masak Matt-W: yes, it's quite handy.
Matt-W pmichaud: however, it doesn't start up
masak Matt-W: and it encourages a nice workflow, too. write an index of the tests, have the subs generated for you, fill in the subs with content.
Matt-W masak: oh it can generate the subs for you too? 15:10
masak yes, there's a script in the bin/ folder in the Druid repo that does that.
pmichaud "it doesn't start up"? 15:11
as in, ./perl6 doesn't work?
Matt-W oh yes, that works 15:14
if I try and invoke it from another directory though
it doesn't work then
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pmichaud oh, I'm not too surprised that it will now fail from other dirs 15:14
I'm not entirely sure how to fix that, either. 15:15
Matt-W pmichaud: gist.github.com/127965
pmichaud right
DanielC masak: I have no idea how the stuff inside november/t works 15:16
viklund DanielC: are you familiar with TAP?
pmichaud okay, that tells me it's working on your system
"make test" should pass, at any rate.
DanielC viklund: What is TAP and what do you eat it with? 15:17
viklund its the Test Anything Protocol, it's whats used for tests in p5 and in p6
Matt-W pmichaud: not quite
t/01-sanity/07-isa.................FAILED tests 1, 3 Failed 2/3 tests, 33.33% okay
DanielC viklund: Is there a simple tutorial, like "TAP for dummies"? 15:18
viklund en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_Anything_Protocol
search.cpan.org/~petdance/TAP-1.00/TAP.pm 15:19
DanielC *click*
Matt-W DanielC: note that you don't have to worry about most of the details, the Test modules and prove handle most of the work for you
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viklund rakudos Test.pm helps in printing "ok 1" and "not ok 1" ans so forth 15:19
15:20 donaldh left
DanielC Matt-W: I feel like a deer on headlights. This TAP stuff is all Greek to me. The tests for my module should be easy. Just try to hash a sample text for each algorithm... 15:20
masak DanielC: really fast tutorial: you call 'plan 5', or however many tests you want to run. then you call the 'ok' sub five (or whatever) times. 'ok' takes a boolean as its first argument.
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masak DanielC: if the boolean is True, the test succeeds. 15:21
Matt-W DanielC: if you find November's test code too complicated, Form's is pretty simple
and may serve as a good starting point
viklund ok( hash("string") eq '3478987c87d8e')
masak DanielC: 'ok' also has a number of handy synonyms (all found in Test.pm), such as 'is'.
DanielC Matt-W: I'll look at Form. Where can I find it?
Matt-W github.com/mattw/form
DanielC viklund: I need even more elementary help than that. How do I even run the test? Do I need to download Test.pm from somewhere? etc.
Matt-W Test.pm comes with rakudo 15:22
DanielC ah!
Matt-W a lot of projects have a test target in their makefiles
DanielC Ok, I feel better already.
Matt-W Form's uses a tool called prove, which comes with Perl I believe
prove understands the output of things it runs which speak TAP, and gives you an overview of the results
or you can just run the scripts directly 15:23
.t scripts are nothing particularly special, they're just Perl 6 scripts (in Form's case)
DanielC I'll start with the simplest thing possible. I assume that means running directly.
Matt-W it's usually a good start, I find
DanielC Do you run them with "perl6 foo.t" ?
Matt-W it's what I tend to do when I get a failing test
especially because I often start sticking more output statements in the test script to see what's really going on 15:24
yes
just like you would if it was .pl
rakudo doesn't care
DanielC Does Rakudo already know that Digest.pm must be in ../lib/Digest.pm ?
viklund no 15:25
add that to PERL6LIB
pmichaud that may change soon, once we can start to have "installed Rakudo"
then we can look at having a place to stick the modules :-)
Matt-W pmichaud: did you pick up that I got rakudo make test failures
pmichaud Matt-W: yes. I'm trying a fresh checkout on my machine.
masak pmichaud: that'd be great. 15:26
Matt-W pmichaud: great
15:28 barney left
DanielC Ok, now I just need to know how to tell Rakudo to look in ../lib/Digest.pm 15:29
Other than that, I think I'm ready for my first test.
viklund set the shell env var PERL6LIB=../lib
DanielC ok
Can't find ./Test in @*INC 15:30
:-(
pastebin.com/m4ca7fb23 <-- this is my test
viklund hmm 15:31
masak?
masak viklund: sorry, what was the question?
DanielC perl6 -e '@*INC.perl.say' => ["../lib", "."] 15:32
viklund DanielC needs help
masak fwiw, I've had @*INC troubles lately too.
DanielC: what platform are you on?
DanielC Ubuntu Linux.
masak ok. should be fine then.
15:32 alanhaggai left
masak DanielC: did you use export? 15:32
viklund try adding the rakudo dir to PERL6LIB too
DanielC export PERL6LIB=../lib 15:33
viklund PERL6LIB=rakudodir:../lib
masak seems that should work. strange.
DanielC yay!
With the new PERL6LIB it works. 15:34
masak viklund++
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DanielC Yay! I have tests. 15:43
The last line says: # Looks like you planned tests, but ran 11
Is that normal? The "but" confused me a bit.
masak DanielC: then you probably didn't have a 'plan' call in the beginning.
DanielC ah 15:44
how do I add a plan call?
masak DanielC: add 'plan 21' in the beginning.
after 'use Test'
it's just a normal sub call.
DanielC Whoo hoo!
masak it tells Test.pm how many tests you expect to run in the test file.
DanielC Thanks for the help. Now I have my very first Perl 6 test suite. 15:45
"git push" 15:46
Btw, I added shortcut functions: Digest::sha1($text)
masak DanielC: excellent. both the test suite and the shortcuts. DanielC++ 15:48
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viklund_ rakudo: "1a1a1".split(1).perl.say;say "Just bit me" 16:00
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«["", "a", "a", ""]␤Just bit me␤»
amoc i don't know this is issue but: say "ㄱ".."ㅎ"; seems to make rakudo drop in infinite loop. 16:01
viklund_ is there a better way than:
rakudo: "1a1a1".split(1).grep({$^w}).perl.say
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«["a", "a"]␤»
viklund_ to get rid of null elems?
DanielC null elems? 16:02
What are those?
viklund_ ""
DanielC ah
viklund_ empty strings in this case...
DanielC hm
rakudo: "1a1a1".split(1).grep(/./).perl.say 16:03
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«["a", "a"]␤»
masak amoc: care to report a rakudobug?
viklund_ I was more thinking of telling split something
DanielC yeah
I don't know, I'm thinking...
No idea. 16:04
viklund_ oh, well, grep works...
DanielC Ok... so /^/ matches the beginning of a line... is there some regex that says "not the beginning of a line"?
rakudo: "1a1a1".split(/\b1/).perl.say 16:05
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«["", "a1a1"]␤»
DanielC hm
DanielC was hoping that b meant "word boundary"
viklund_ it does
masak pmichaud: is <foo=bar> implemented in PGE?
amoc masak: er.. i was not sure it is okay or real problem to report.
viklund_ that's what you split on
DanielC Ok, so I guess "a1" is considered a single word. 16:06
masak amoc: it sounds like one.
DanielC: words are \S+, so yes.
DanielC rakudo: "1a1a1".comb(/<alpha>/)
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: ( no output )
DanielC rakudo: "1a1a1".comb(/<alpha>/).perl.say
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«[Match.new(␤ # WARNING: this is not working perl code␤ # and for debugging purposes only␤ ast => "a",␤ Str => "a",␤ from => 1,␤ to => 2,␤ named => {␤ 'alpha' => Match.new(␤ ast => "a",␤ Str => "a",␤ from => 1,␤ to => 2,␤ ),␤ },␤), Match.new(␤ # WARNING:
..this is…
DanielC ??
masak ¿¿ 16:07
DanielC rakudo: "1a1a1".comb(/<[a-z]>/).perl.say
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«perl6regex parse error: Unescaped '-' in charlist (use '..' or '\-') at offset 27, found '-'␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
DanielC come on!
rakudo: "1a1a1".comb(/a/).perl.say
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«["a", "a"]␤»
masak rakudo: "1a1a1".comb(/<alpha>/)>>.Str.perl.say
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«["a", "a"]␤»
viklund_ yes well I could do it like this:
DanielC ok 16:08
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mberends DanielC, I have a backlog in my backlogging, but managed to push an initial 'make test'. it may 'make PARROT_DIR=something test' to work for you. and there's a significant "cheat" to be removed ;) 16:08
DanielC "git pull"
viklund_ rakudo: "%E2%98%BB".comb(/(<alpha>|\d)+/)>>.Str.perl.say 16:09
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«["E2", "98", "BB"]␤»
viklund_ it feels saner to split on '%'
rakudo: "%E2%98%BB".split('%').grep({$^w}).perl.say;
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«["E2", "98", "BB"]␤»
viklund_ either way works though 16:10
mberends DanielC, after the initial steps are there any changes you would like to make to our roadmap?
DanielC "make test" seems to work. 16:11
mberends cool
DanielC reads the roamap
I can't think of any changes to the roadmap.
Ok, (3) is obsolete.
mberends ok
DanielC (3) could be replaced with MD5 16:12
mberends md5 makes much more sense
DanielC It's way faster too, since it uses the OpenSSL implementation.
rjh let's use SHA512! 16:13
DanielC :-)
masak goes home to secure food 16:14
16:14 masak left
mberends could you look into 03-checksum.t and figure out why the call to md5() dies? (near the "cheat"). it cannot find the MD5 class, and has stumped me so far. 16:15
DanielC mberends: The roadmap looks good. I hope you know how to o the parrot hashtable thing.
ok
mberends: I don't know if the function can understand hex values. 16:16
0x7fffffff 16:17
mberends DanielC, if the docs make sense, we create a hash pmc, insert module names as key and array pmcs as values into it, and freeze that to a file
16:17 hanekomu left
mberends we can try the 16 million whatever number, but the err was about class MD5 16:17
the file being 'digested' is way shorter anyway 16:18
DanielC The test works on my computer. :-P 16:19
ok 2 - md5 of storage-format.html 16:20
mberends it's great that you're getting into the TAP mindset, and great that chromatic++ ported Test::More to PIR
without cheating?
DanielC Without cheating.
What's the error on your computer?
mberends well done! then something is wrong here... dunno 16:21
chatting from another computer atm
DanielC afk
StephenPollei sha512 is probably overkill , sha224 or skein might be nice though depending on what its needs are 16:23
DanielC StephenPollei: It's just to detect errors. MD5 is more than enough. 16:25
StephenPollei sure than crc32 , crc64, or crc128 might be ok as well then, depends on how much probability of detection and how robust 16:27
DanielC Any CRC would do fine. The reason we pick MD5 is that Parrot comes with it, through the OpenSSL library, so it's very fast.
rjh md5 seems to be more standard for consistency checks 16:28
DanielC The OpenSSL MD5 is faster than a CRC implemented in Parrot.
rjh even if crc is sufficient
for secure hashing, i wouldn't be comfortable with anything less than sha224
but that's another issue
DanielC "secure hashing" is an overly broad term. If you want collision resistance, SHA256 or better would be a good idea (what's the point of using sha224 anyways?). For pre-image resistance, SHA1 and even MD5 are just fine. 16:30
rjh isn't 224 just 256 with some bits chopped off?
StephenPollei I thought there was another small break in sha recently
DanielC rjh: Pretty much.
rjh yeah, no idea why that exists
DanielC rjh: For compatibility with some systems that can't handle more than 224 bits. :-P 16:31
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StephenPollei long term skein or whatever wins the nist contest 16:32
rjh StephenPollei: the nist contest doesn't end until 2012 or something 16:33
sha256 looks decent though 16:34
DanielC I like Whirlpool mostly because it is different from the SHA family.
MD5* SHA* are all basically the same construction.
StephenPollei yes thats why I said long term not short or medium .. I think Bruce Schneier's and others skein sounded neat though, but I haven't really looked to deep into it
DanielC One thing I like about the NIST contest is that it creates an opportunity for people to experiment with other ways to do hashes. 16:35
rjh with the symmetric contest we got Rjindael and Twofish
DanielC y
rjh both quite different to DES
ahem
DanielC Well... but in the case of symmetric algorithms, at least there was already a lot of research on how to make those. 16:36
We don't have anywhere near the same research for hashes.
rjh That's true, hence the contest
leedo a ruby friend of mine just did this, thought someone here might be interested
gist.github.com/128037
DanielC leedo: Your friend just took it from my blog. 16:37
leedo: See the last line in the file.
rjh read down for ruby version
StephenPollei true thats also why its a good idea that they let things simmer until 2012 , in analyzing the new hashes they might come up with new breaking methods
DanielC ah
leedo DanielC: he ported it to ruby for comparison
DanielC leedo: ah!!
Well, I'm glad someone looked at my blog and thought it was interesting. 16:38
leedo yeah, i was intrigued by the new regex stuff
DanielC The Perl grammar is more clean. 16:39
rjh not a good advertisement for ruby in this case, though - using regexes, and not having true lexicals
DanielC But the Ruby port is amazingly similar.
Ruby++
I don't expect Ruby to have everything in Perl 6, just as I don't expect Perl 5 to have everything in Ruby... Languages evolve... 16:40
rjh The regex approach looks primitive in comparison
DanielC rjh: It does. 16:41
As I said... languages evolve.
Perl 5 looks primitive next to Ruby.
rjh yeah
but it's a good sign
DanielC Ruby got the best parts out of Perl 5, and Perl 6 got the best pars out of Ruby.
yeah, that too
It suggests that Perl 6 is going in a good direction.
rjh wonders what a perl 5 implementation would look like 16:42
there's no scan, you'd have to use //g
DanielC The Ruby version looks a bit fragile, because he uses \* instead of <ws> 16:43
16:43 Patterner left, Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
DanielC uses \s* 16:43
rjh ruby's re parser is unicode-aware, though
DanielC That could do something unexpected.
No, that's not what I mean.
rjh oh, is <ws> more intelligent?
DanielC 22 <-- \s* would match in between the 2's but <ws> would not. 16:44
<ws> does not match inside a word.
So yes, <ws> is smarter.
rjh yes
i'd like to see the same approach with infix notation
Perl 6 would be a lot stronger there 16:45
DanielC Do what with infix?
rjh (2 + 2) * 3 etc. rather than RPN
DanielC ah
That would be interesting.
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DanielC rakudo: class F { has ($.position, $.alive = true); } 17:13
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Unable to parse declarator; couldn't find final ')' at line 2, near "= true); }"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
DanielC :-(
rakudo: class F { has ($.foo, $.bar is rw); } 17:14
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: ( no output )
DanielC rakudo: class F { has ($.foo, $.bar = 1); }
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: ( no output )
DanielC rakudo: class F { has ($.foo, $.bar = true); }
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Unable to parse declarator; couldn't find final ')' at line 2, near "= true); }"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
DanielC rakudo: true
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Syntax error at line 2, near "true"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
DanielC rakudo: True 17:15
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: ( no output )
DanielC rakudo: class F { has ($.foo, $.bar = True); }
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: ( no output )
DanielC :-)
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viklund_ is confused 17:22
someone here who has battled with UTF8 conversions? 17:23
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sbp viklund_: what's the problem? 17:27
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viklund_ I'm trying to decode urlencoded unicode into unicode 17:31
I get %E2%98%BB and that should become ☻ 17:32
I manage to do that, but when I mix 3 byte and 2 byte characters, something blows up
I get: ☻ � � � 17:33
(the last three should be "å ä ö")
but if I decode the urlencoded å ä ö by itself it works... 17:34
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viklund_ can I force a string into utf8 in rakudo? 17:56
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StephenPollei maybe you have to convert a buf8 into utf8 Str .. no clue how 17:57
perlcabal.org/syn/ 15Unicode(TBD) 17:59
viklund_ rakudo: say "åäö ☻"
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«åäö ☻␤»
viklund_ hmm
maybe my terminal is breaking stuff as well 18:00
no 18:01
StephenPollei perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html A Str is a Unicode string object.
I don't know how much of the Str stuff is implemented , I know that StrPos and StrLen don't seem to exist 18:02
rakudo: my StrPos $foo; 18:04
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Malformed declaration at line 2, near "StrPos $fo"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
StephenPollei rakudo: my StrLen $foo;
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Malformed declaration at line 2, near "StrLen $fo"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
viklund_ oh well 18:07
pmichaud rakudo still (incorrectly) uses ints for StrPos and StrLen 18:09
the most likely "correct" solution will be to convert %e2%98%bb into an int, and then use .chr on the int to produce the character 18:10
last week I put a query to parrot-dev asking how to convert a fixed 8-bit to a utf8 encoding, but no response yet. 18:11
viklund_ ;(
it's not so easy as to convert %e2%98%bb into an int...
it's the bytes for the unicode chr that is shown there, not the unicode codepoint... 18:12
the codepoint is, ehm
pmichaud its the bytes for the *utf8* char that is there 18:13
viklund_ maybe
yes
maybe I'm confused
you mean: 18:14
rakudo: say :16("e298bb")
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«14850235␤»
viklund_ rakudo: say chr(:16("e298bb"))
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Invalid character for UTF-8 encoding␤in method Any::chr (src/gen_setting.pm:174)␤called from Main (/tmp/ux3duSGugt:2)␤»
viklund_ and not 18:15
rakudo: say chr(:16("263B"))
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«☻␤»
viklund_ I'm not sure about the terminology here
pmichaud the code point for the above would be (0xe2 +& 0x0f) +< 12 + (0x98 & 0x3f) +< 6 + (0xbb & 0x3f)
viklund_ yes
pmichaud rakudo: say (0xe2 +& 0x0f) +< 12 + (0x98 & 0x3f) +< 6 + (0xbb & 0x3f)
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«get_integer() not implemented in class 'Junction'␤in Main (/tmp/oaNUggRGYk:2)␤»
pmichaud rakudo: say (0xe2 +& 0x0f) +< 12 + (0x98 +& 0x3f) +< 6 + (0xbb +& 0x3f) 18:16
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«9787␤»
viklund_ yep, and that's what I feed into chr
pmichaud rakudo: say sprintf("%04x", 9787);
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«263b␤»
pmichaud rakudo: say chr(9787);
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«☻␤»
viklund_ but, say å, thats %C3%A5 18:17
which becomes
pmichaud rakudo: say (0xc3 +& 0x1f) +< 6 + (0xa5 & 0x3f)
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Junction()<0xb6c41020>␤»
pmichaud rakudo: say (0xc3 +& 0x1f) +< 6 + (0xa5 +& 0x3f) 18:18
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«229␤»
viklund_ ty
pmichaud rakudo: say chr(229)
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«å␤»
18:18 buubot left
viklund_ rakudo: say chr(229), chr(9787) 18:19
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«å☻␤»
viklund_ rakudo: say chr(229) ~ chr(9787)
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«\xE5☻␤»
viklund_ That's my problem!
lichtkind mberends: ping
pmichaud ah, that looks like a parrot bug.
Looks to me like parrot has trouble concatenating latin-1 and utf-8 strings.
viklund_ rakudo: say join('', chr(229), chr(9787)) 18:20
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«\xE5☻␤»
viklund_ pmichaud: is there anyway I can work around this in rakudo now? 18:21
pmichaud viklund_: looking 18:23
viklund_ thanks
pmichaud it's a definite parrot bug. I don't have an easy workaround at the moment. 18:24
viklund_ sigh
maybe if I say it to a file and then slurp it ;)
s/say/print/ 18:25
pmichaud the problem is that Parrot is coming up with an invalid utf8 string
it's coming up with the byte sequence e5 e2 98 bb 18:26
viklund_ in the 2 byte case?
pmichaud it should instead be c3 a5 e2 98 bb
viklund_ ah, and the e5 is latin-1?
pmichaud yes.
viklund_ writing to a file and the reading the file seems to work though ;) 18:28
for catenating
rakudo: my $fh = open("/tmp/funny", :w); $fh.say(chr(229), chr(9787));$fh.close();my $s = slurp("/tmp/funny"); say $s
pmichaud oh, that might work
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«operation not permitted in safe mode␤in Main (lib/Safe.pm:25)␤»
viklund_ oh well
it does
pmichaud because output knows how to convert latin-1 to utf-8
it's string concatenation that gets confused
viklund_ yep, so that's what I'll do for November 18:29
finally we can have utf8 working
StephenPollei ouch thats ugly work around
viklund_ StephenPollei: you should have seen my recursion wokraround ;)
last summer recursion didn't work properly in rakudo (vars became shared between recursive calls) 18:30
StephenPollei I am full of fear
pmichaud I'm posting a bug report to parrot -- it may get resolved quickly. I'll also mark it high priority for Rakudo.
StephenPollei so did you just make and handle your own stack?
viklund_ StephenPollei: no, I had the entire sub in a string 18:31
18:31 DanielC left
viklund_ which I evaled before each call to get a new sub ;) 18:31
and new vars
pmichaud: great
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viklund_ this was the first time I did bitwise stuff 18:32
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mberends lichtkind: pong 18:43
lichtkind mberends: what we wanne to today? (tm) 18:44
mberends: i mean do 18:46
mberends lichtkind, not sure. my time in-chat will be limited during the next two weeks, but I may be able to hammer away at something offline.
lichtkind mberends: good want you write more on tablets or tutorial? 18:47
mberends the most interesting subject would be 5-to-6 comparison or migration, because that is planned for my talk in Lisbon 18:48
the documentation inside v6.pm (for Perl 5) is very sparse. Are there any references apart from "the source code"? 18:51
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lichtkind mberends: so you maybe flessh out appendix D: DElta 18:56
i take care of november
mberends lichtkind: ok, that's a fine plan for this evening 18:57
lichtkind mberends: i just yesterday recogniced that you (finished Appendix A) ++ 19:02
mberends: there was lot to do but C is now also ready 19:03
mberends lichtkind: ok, will have to look at it in about an hour 19:05
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DanielC rakudo: my $a = F.new(); class F { } 19:21
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«invoke() not implemented in class 'F'␤in Main (/tmp/5tbwEi6BNz:2)␤»
DanielC Is it right that you have to define a class before you use it?
You don't have to define functions at the top of the file.
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mberends DanielC, it's right that you have to define the class first 19:28
DanielC Why is that? I don't have to define functions first.
19:29 M_o_C left
mberends this is a guess, but it could be that predeclare is the Right Way, and forward referencing to subs is a concession to P5 compatibility. 19:30
DanielC But Perl's motto is not "The Right Way to Do It" 19:31
mberends my guess could be very wrong
StephenPollei rakudo: sub foo() { ... }
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: ( no output )
viklund perl6 is a little more strict than p5 though
DanielC AFAIK, only when there is a good reason. 19:32
StephenPollei TIMTOWTDI
mberends is sure TimToady++ would have given the RIght Answer 19:35
StephenPollei rakudo: foo(); sub foo() { say 'blah' } 19:36
TimToady sub defs don't change subsequent parsing, while type defs do
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«blah␤»
TimToady and you can't change parsing retroactively
DanielC Ok. That's a good answer. 19:37
I guess it'd be a bit much to ask Perl to change parsing retroactively.
TimToady where value names like "pi" also count as "parsing like types"
rakudo: say pi +1 19:38
StephenPollei rakudo: my Sub $foo = { say 'blah' }
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«4.14159265358979␤»
rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Type mismatch in assignment; expected something matching type Sub but got something of type Block()␤in Main (/tmp/DDLc7E8qfr:2)␤»
TimToady pi is not a listop
19:39 charsbar left
TimToady so really it's more like "types parse like values" 19:40
StephenPollei rakudo: my Sub &foo = &bar; foo(); sub bar() { say 'blah' } 19:41
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Cannot handle typed variables with sigil & at line 2, near "= &bar; fo"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:1743)␤»
StephenPollei rakudo: my &foo = &bar; foo(); sub bar() { say 'blah' }
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«blah␤»
DanielC cool 19:42
viklund ... but strange
StephenPollei I think my Sub &foo = &bar; should also work .. I'll add it to some test 19:43
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StephenPollei rakudo: my $foo = &bar; foo(); sub bar() { say 'blah' } 19:49
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub foo␤»
StephenPollei rakudo: sub bar() { say 'blah' }; my $foo = &bar; foo(); 19:52
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub foo␤»
DanielC rakudo: my $foo = &bar; $foo(); sub bar() { say 'blah' }
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«blah␤»
StephenPollei rakudo: sub bar() { say 'blah' }; my &foo = &bar; foo();
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«blah␤» 19:53
DanielC You need the $
rakudo: my $foo = &bar; $foo(); sub bar() { say 'blah' }
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«blah␤»
StephenPollei rakudo: sub bar() { say 'blah' }; my $foo = &bar; foo(); 19:54
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub foo␤»
StephenPollei sometimes I need $ sometimes &
DanielC rakudo: sub bar() { say 'blah' }; my $foo = &bar; $foo(); 19:55
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«blah␤»
DanielC If you do '&foo = &bar' you need the &
If you do '$foo = &bar' you need the $
TimToady rakudo: constant foo = &bar; foo(); sub bar { say 'blah' }
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«blah␤»
DanielC cool too
TimToady put that one in your pipe and smoke it :) 19:56
StephenPollei I quess I never do need the &
DanielC yeah 19:57
StephenPollei rakudo: sub bar() { say 'blah' }; my &foo = &bar; foo();
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«blah␤»
DanielC &foo = &bar; foo(); ... $foo = &bar; $foo()
StephenPollei rakudo: sub bar() { say 'blah' }; my $foo = &bar; foo();
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub foo␤»
StephenPollei except there
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DanielC put a $ there! 19:57
rakudo: sub bar() { say 'blah' }; my $foo = &bar; $foo();
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«blah␤» 19:58
StephenPollei rakudo: sub bar() { say 'blah' }; my $foo = $bar; foo();
DanielC &foo = &bar; foo(); ... $foo = &bar; $foo()
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Symbol '$bar' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/WT4AAfzBha:2)␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3225)␤»
DanielC &foo = &bar; foo(); ... $foo = &bar; $foo()
see?
19:58 pmichaud left, pmichaud_ joined, dalek left
DanielC It actually makes sense. In $foo the $ is part of the variable name. 19:58
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TimToady it is in the &foo variable too, but that's only when you're thinking of it as a noun 19:59
foo() is special verb syntax that knows how to look up the noun form
StephenPollei ok 20:00
japhb watches perl5 crash spectacularly, rather like a plane losing a wing .... Somehow it's nice to see that it's not just the bleeding edge that feels this pain. (Misery loves company?) 20:01
20:01 pmichaud joined
japhb Unfortunately, the perl5 process in question was trying to get me an updated Parrot, so that's less fun. 20:02
StephenPollei so my Sub &foo would always be wrong, it would always need to be my Sub $foo ; and be called with $foo() 20:03
DanielC jnthn: ping?
20:04 kidd_ joined
pmichaud I think jnthn may be on vacation by now. 20:04
DanielC ok
Any other Parrot experts here?
You know that Parrot uses OpenSSL to provide the hash functions. 20:05
pmichaud depends on which part of Parrot you're needing expertise in.
20:05 JDlugosz left
DanielC I was just wondering if it'd be hard to make it also provide AES and RSA which also come with OpenSSL. 20:05
I was looking at the code just now, but I couldn't figure it out.
pmichaud I don't know when Parrot started linking with OpenSSL
I think that's relatively recent. 20:06
DanielC ok
I'm glad that it does though. It made it much easier to get a hash function into Rakudo.
20:07 pmichaud left
DanielC bye bye pmichau 20:07
StephenPollei rakudo: sub isa(Object $var,$type) { $var.isa($type);} ; my Role $cino; isa($cino, Role); 20:09
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Method 'isa' not found for invocant of class ''␤»
StephenPollei rakudo: sub isa(Object $var,$type) { $var.isa($type);} ; my Str $c; isa($c, Str);
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: ( no output )
TimToady StephenPollei: my Sub &foo is fine as long as you expect foo to *return* a Sub object 20:12
pugs_svn r27058 | stephenpollei++ | added another test for Sub
StephenPollei OK thanks TimToady I think I cleaned up my thinking errors on that 20:13
I need to reread the perlcabal.org/syn/ again
TimToady after which I need to rewrite them again :) 20:14
StephenPollei rakudo: my Sub &foo = &bar; foo(); sub bar() { say 'blah' }
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Cannot handle typed variables with sigil & at line 2, near "= &bar; fo"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:1743)␤»
StephenPollei so that might really be a bug then
rakudo: my Sub &foo = &bar; foo(); sub bar() { return baz;} ; sub baz() { say 'blah' } 20:15
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Cannot handle typed variables with sigil & at line 2, near "= &bar; fo"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:1743)␤»
TimToady I suspect so 20:16
StephenPollei rakudo: my $foo = &bar; $$foo(); sub bar() { return baz;} ; sub baz() { say 'blah' } 20:18
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Symbol '$$foo' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/GdozHyQagV:2)␤»
StephenPollei rakudo: my $foo = &bar; $($foo()); sub bar() { return baz;} ; sub baz() { say 'blah' } 20:19
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«blah␤»
StephenPollei rakudo: sub baz() { say 'blah' }; sub bar() { return baz;} ; my $foo = &bar; $($foo()); 20:21
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«blah␤»
StephenPollei rakudo: sub baz() { say 'blah' }; sub bar() { return baz;} ; my Sub &foo = &bar; $foo();
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Cannot handle typed variables with sigil & at line 2, near "= &bar; $f"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:1743)␤»
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StephenPollei non-instantiable Roles ... Integral so does that Role do? 20:39
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pmurias DanielC: 20:51
sorry
20:51 pmichaud joined
DanielC np 20:51
StephenPollei svn.pugscode.org seems to be down 20:53
pmichaud I think it's the connectivity between feather and the outside world
I've been seeing it go up and down a fair bit yesterday and today
StephenPollei oh ok
pmichaud feather itself (which hosts svn.pugscode.org) seems to be fine
(when it can be reached)
StephenPollei yes I didn't do traceroute or ping, so I didn't narrow were the packets were dropping 20:54
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pugs_svn r27059 | stephenpollei++ | added Callable and Integral and Sub with & 20:55
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jnthn Time for me to go rest before an early flight tomorrow. Back in two weeks. 21:05
mberends jnthn, bon voyage
21:08 kane_ joined
jnthn mberends: thanks! :-) 21:09
21:15 payload left, krakan is now known as krakan_, krakan_ is now known as krakan 21:24 kane__ left
jnthn BTW, I won't be reading a whole two weeks of backlog when I return. ;-) So if there's important stuff, please email or /msg me. 21:25
OK, gone. 21:26
o/
viklund o/
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DanielC Is Perl 6 going to have list comprehensions by any chance? You know, like f xs ys = [ x + y | x <- xs, y <- ys, even x, odd y, prime x+y ] 21:40
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pmichaud DanielC: yes -- See S04. Search for "list comprehension" :-) 21:53
DanielC really?
DanielC looks
website is slow... 21:54
pmichaud I think feather is disconnected again
but here:
@names = (-> $name, $num { "$name.$num" } for 'a'..'zzz' X 1..100);
or even
@names = ({ "$^name.$^num" } for 'a'..'zzz' X 1..100); 21:55
DanielC It took me a few moments, but I figured out what that does.
pmichaud @primesquares = ($_ if prime($_) for 1..100) [**] 2;
21:55 eternaleye joined
pmichaud although that one looks wrong to me -- I think it should be >>**>> 21:56
since [**] is a reduction operator
DanielC @sum = ({$^x + $^y} if prime ( ??? ) for @xs X @ys) 21:57
lambdabot Maybe you meant: bug run src
DanielC Say I want to check that $^x + $^y is prime.
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pmichaud THAT's what I've been missing/looking for 21:59
DanielC rakudo: my @xs = <1 2 3>; my @ys = <2 4 6>; ( @xs X @ys).perl.say
pmichaud I wish I had a metaoperator that says "return this value if this condition is true for this value"
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«["1", "2", "1", "4", "1", "6", "2", "2", "2", "4", "2", "6", "3", "2", "3", "4", "3", "6"]␤»
21:59 PerlJam left
pmichaud i.e., something that could do 21:59
21:59 jnthn left
pmichaud foo($x) && $x 22:00
but without having to recalculate $x
DanielC y
pmichaud in particular, it would mean that I could do
well, maybe not 22:01
DanielC rakudo: my @xs = <1 2 3>; my @ys = <2 4 6>; ( @xs Z @ys).perl.say
pmichaud it's close
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«["1", "2", "2", "4", "3", "6"]␤»
DanielC :(
pmichaud what's wrong with those?
DanielC I want to get a list of pairs.
pmichaud you're too attached to the notion of pairs 22:02
watch
put another way -- those are pairs
DanielC Then you could do "if prime($_[0] + $_[1])" for example
watch what? Did you type something?
pmichaud (still typing)
DanielC sorry
viklund rakudo: for <1 2 3 > X <a b c> -> $x, $y { say "$x: $y" } 22:03
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«1: a␤1: b␤1: c␤2: a␤2: b␤2: c␤3: a␤3: b␤3: c␤»
pmichaud rakudo: my @xs = <1 2 3>; my @ys = <2 4 6>; ($^x+$^y).say for @xs Z @ys;
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«too few arguments passed (0) - 2 params expected␤in Main (/tmp/UvWiG8ajB9:0)␤»
pmichaud rakudo: my @xs = <1 2 3>; my @ys = <2 4 6>; { ($^x+$^y).say } for @xs Z @ys;
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«3␤6␤9␤»
DanielC viklund: Yeah, but that's definitely not a list comprehension. It's a regular for loop.
pmichaud what are you looking for as a difference? 22:04
viklund yes, but am I looking at pairs or a list?
pmichaud: nice ;)
DanielC pmichaud: Your example works, but how do you use that with the 'if prime( ... )' filter?
pmichaud I don't know, that's the piece that is kinda missing 22:05
DanielC yeah
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DanielC In any case, these examples look complex enough that in real life I would probably just use map and grep. 22:05
pmichaud but Perl 6 knows how to do "take things n at a time" without them having to be actually set up as lists-of-lists
DanielC take n at a time++ 22:06
That's a feature I need to get used to.
pmichaud so @xs Z @ys can still be processed 2-at-a-time without them actually having to be [[1, 2], [2, 4], [4, 6]]
same for @xs X @ys
DanielC It's different from what you would do in, say, Haskell. Which explains my attachment to pairs :)
pmichaud (all that said, -- in reality they really are lists-of-lists, but Rakudo has trouble with those at the moment) 22:07
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DanielC Perl 6 is supposed to be very malleable. So in principle could someone add list comprehensions that look more like the Haskell ones? 22:11
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DanielC e.g. [ { $^x + $^y } | @xs X @ys, even $^x, odd $^y ] 22:12
or whatever
That might be asking for too much though. 22:13
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DanielC A pre-processor could turn that into a map+grep. 22:14
map {$^x+$^y}, (@xs X @ys).grep({ (even $^x) && (even $^y) }) 22:15
ah... but grep wont work on pairs, will it? 22:16
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DanielC s/pairs/two elements at a time/ 22:16
22:17 jnthn joined
DanielC Well, I guess even Perl 6 has limits. 22:17
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viklund grep on pairs? that's an idea 22:18
rakudo: <a b d d>.grep({$^a ~~ $^b}).perl.say
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«too few arguments passed (1) - 2 params expected␤in method Any::»
viklund rakudo: <a b d d>.grep({$^a ~~ 'd'}).perl.say 22:19
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«["d", "d"]␤»
viklund oh well...
bacek <a b d d>.map({$^a ~~ $^b}).grep.perl.say
rakudo: <a b d d>.map({$^a ~~ $^b}).grep.perl.say
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'grep'␤in Main (/tmp/6mJQSFAwk0:2)»
bacek hmmm 22:20
viklund rakudo: <a b d d>.map({$^a ~~ $^b}).grep({$^fjonkor}).perl.say
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«[Bool::True]␤»
bacek rakudo: <a b d d>.map({$^a ~~ $^b}).grep({ ?$_ }).perl.say
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«[Bool::True]␤»
bacek rakudo: <a b d d c c e f>.map({$^a ~~ $^b}).grep({ ?$_ }).perl.say
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«[Bool::True, Bool::True]␤»
bacek here we go 22:21
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bacek rakudo: say gather for <a b d d> -> $a, $b { take $^a if $a ~~ $b } 22:22
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Cannot use placeholder var in block with signature. at line 2, near " if $a ~~ "␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:1966)␤» 22:23
bacek rakudo: say gather for <a b d d> -> $a, $b { take $a if $a ~~ $b }
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«d␤»
sjohnson1 hello friends
viklund ;)
DanielC rakudo: <1 1 2 3 3 1>.map({[$^a, $^b]}).grep({ $_[0] % 2 == 0 and $_[1] % 2 == 1 }).perl.say
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Method 'postcircumfix:[ ]' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤»
DanielC rakudo: <1 1 2 3 3 1>.map({[$^a, $^b]}).grep({ @^a[0] % 2 == 0 }).perl.say 22:24
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Parameter type check failed; expected something matching Positional() but got something of type Str() for @a in call to _block71␤in method Any::grep (/tmp/g72RVudL5E:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/g72RVudL5E:2)␤»
DanielC ggrrrr
rakudo: <1 1 2 3 3 1>.map({[$^a, $^b]}).grep({ $^a[0] % 2 == 0 }).perl.say 22:25
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Method 'postcircumfix:[ ]' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤» 22:26
DanielC rakudo: <1 1 2 3 3 1>.map({[$^a, $^b]}).perl.say
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«[["1", "1"], ["2", "3"], ["3", "1"]]␤»
DanielC oh well, I give up
sjohnson1 just gotta show that interpretor who's boss 22:28
DanielC By the looks of it, the compiler is boss.
pmichaud rakudo: <1 1 2 3 3 1>.map({[^$a, $^b]})>>.say 22:30
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Symbol '$a' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/nUx6yyHehR:2)␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3225)␤»
pmichaud rakudo: <1 1 2 3 3 1>.map({[$^a, $^b]})>>.say 22:31
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«1 1␤2 3␤3 1␤»
pmichaud rakudo: <1 1 2 3 3 1>.map({[$^a, $^b]})>>.perl>>.say
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«["1", "1"]␤["2", "3"]␤["3", "1"]␤»
pmichaud rakudo: <1 1 2 3 3 1>.map({[$^a, $^b]}).grep( { ($^a)[0] % 2 } ).perl.say 22:32
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Method 'postcircumfix:[ ]' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤»
pmichaud rakudo: <1 1 2 3 3 1>.map({[$^a, $^b]}).grep( { ($^a.perl.say } )
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Unable to parse block; couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near "($^a.perl."␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
pmichaud rakudo: <1 1 2 3 3 1>.map({[$^a, $^b]}).grep( { $^a.perl.say } )
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«"1"␤"2"␤"3"␤»
pmichaud that's odd. 22:33
I suspect a bug in the grep implementation
rakudo: <1 1 2 3 3 1>.map({[$^a, $^b]}).map( { $^a.perl.say } )
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«["1", "1"]␤["2", "3"]␤["3", "1"]␤»
22:33 alester left
pmichaud that's more of what I'd expect. 22:34
My bet is that the grep implementation is imposing a list context somewhere that it shouldn't.
DanielC :-(
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TimToady rakudo: say (-> $x, $y { [$x, $y] if $x % 2 and not $y % 2 }) for ^5 X ^5 22:42
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«_block64␤_block64␤_block64␤_block64␤_block64␤_block64␤_block64␤_block64␤_block64␤_block64␤_block64␤_block64␤_block64␤_block64␤_block64␤_block64␤»
TimToady cool!
sjohnson1 heh
DanielC rakudo: say ((-> $x, $y { [$x, $y] if $x % 2 and not $y % 2 }) for ^5 X ^5).perl
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Perl6Iterator.new()␤»
DanielC :-P 22:43
TimToady what I wrote is specced to work as a list comprehension, but rakudo's not quite there yet
say (42 if 0).perl
rakudo: say (42 if 0).perl 22:44
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«[]␤»
TimToady should be Nil, methinks
rakudo: say do for ^5 X ^5 -> $x, $y { [$x, $y] if $x % 2 and not $y % 2 } 22:45
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«-1␤»
TimToady that's also specced to work
DanielC Though Rakudo can't show the full output, it looks like the list comprehension worked, because the output has 16 blocks instead of 25. 22:46
TimToady rakudo: say gather for ^5 X ^5 -> $x, $y { take [$x, $y] if $x % 2 and not $y % 2 }
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«1 01 21 43 03 23 4␤»
TimToady that's the workaround currently 22:47
pmichaud 17:42 <@TimToady> rakudo: say (-> $x, $y { [$x, $y] if $x % 2 and not $y % 2 }) for ^5 X ^5
shouldn't the "for" be inside the parens? 22:48
TimToady ah, yes
pmichaud rakudo thinks the "for" is modifying "say"
I guessing rakudo can't handle it inside the parens yet either
TimToady rakudo: say (-> $x, $y { [$x, $y] if $x % 2 and not $y % 2 } for ^5 X ^5)
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«-1␤»
pmichaud but wanted to make sure I wasn't completely off.
rakudo doesn't know how to make loops return arrays of values yet 22:49
it always returns the last one
and any number of other oddities 22:50
TimToady DanielC: anyway, the intent is to get list comprehensions to fall nicely out of existing syntax, not introduce it as a special case 22:51
DanielC That would be nice.
TimToady *cough* python *cough* haskell *cough*
DanielC ?
pmichaud rakudo: say (42 if 0).WHAT;
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«List()␤» 22:52
pmichaud I thought I had fixed that already.
rakudo: say (42 if 0).PARROT;
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«List␤»
DanielC Ok, list comprehensions are a special case in Python, but I think they are fairly central to Haskell. Then again, I'm no expert at either language.
I like Haskell. I don't like Python.
TimToady say Nil.perl
rakudo: say Nil.perl
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
TimToady rakudo: say ().perl
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«[]␤» 22:53
TimToady the whole point of Nil is to name ()...
pmichaud I'm sure I haven't fixed that one yet... but should be easily fixable.
my $a = (1,2); # a capture (list) 22:56
my $a = (1); # also a capture, but optimized to an item
my $a = (); # what's this?
sjohnson1 python = Snake++ 22:58
TimToady it's an empty capture, also known as Nil
pmichaud okay, that confuses me a bit 22:59
okay, I'm less confused. It's an empty list that complains if used like an item. 23:00
TimToady Nil only acts undef if you try to use .[0]
yes
pmichaud so: my $a = (); say +$a; # carps
TimToady rakudo: say +() 23:01
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«0␤»
pmichaud rakudo: sub foo { return; }; say +foo();
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤0␤»
pmichaud I'm converting () to return Nil now. 23:02
TimToady is foo returning a () capture?
pmichaud foo is returning Nil :-)
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pmichaud rakudo: sub foo { return; }; say foo().WHAT; 23:02
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p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Nil()␤» 23:02
pmichaud rakudo was just translating () into an empty list
TimToady I'd think that 0 is the right answer to +()
pmichaud and not a failure?
TimToady but maybe I'm thinking of it wrong 23:03
pmichaud i.e., no carp?
my question would then be.... when would Nil carp about being used in item context?
TimToady rakudo: say +(0,0,0)
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«3␤»
pmichaud i.e., what makes Nil different from an empty capture?
TimToady when you do .[0]
pmichaud in particular (more) 23:04
sub foo { return; }
TimToady they should behave identically
pmichaud my $a = foo(); my $b = (); # do these differ?
TimToady no
pmichaud so:
my $a = foo(); say 3 + $a; # no carping 23:05
(this was the case that I think caused us to introduce Nil in the first place)
TimToady well, then probably +() ought to carp as well 23:07
pmichaud fwiw, I'm fine with either answer; just wanting to resolve the internal conflict of "those don't match!" :-) 23:08
I think +() carping is likely to be okay.
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TimToady I just don't quite understand how the I-want-a-value-ness of + differs from that of $a= 23:09
pmichaud I tend to think of it in terms of undefness 23:10
clearly we want to assign undef things to scalars like $a
it's when we try to use them for their values that we throw exceptions
TimToady my Any $a = () vs sub infix:<+> (Any:D, Any:D) 23:11
pmichaud I've been thinking of Nil as a special form of undef that interpolates as an empty list in list context
TimToady which still leads me back toward thinking parameters default to :D, while my sigs don't 23:12
pmichaud I hadn't been thinking of () as being Nil, though.
that feels right somehow
something nags at me about it, though.
TimToady It's more of a value like pi than a type like Object 23:13
pmichaud also, is my Any $a = () a sig or an assignment? 23:14
TimToady but we need it undefined if params distinguish
pmichaud last I checked, it parsed as assignment
TimToady parses as (my Any $a) = () with expectation that semantic analysis looks for declarators on the left and special-casees them 23:15
pmichaud ah
it still leaves the question of the non-decl case though:
my $a; $a = (); # different?
family wants me to take them to dinner now, so I will read backscroll later
TimToady $a is still Any, not Any:D 23:16
rakudo: say ().defined 23:17
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«1␤»
23:17 pmurias left
TimToady rakudo: say Nil.defined 23:17
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«0␤»
TimToady in that case I think () wants to become more like Nil
viklund pmichaud: is take doing some string concatenation?? 23:19
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TimToady it's not supposed to 23:20
pmichaud++ is off to dinner
viklund ahh right
23:20 donaldh joined
viklund_ rakudo: my @s = gather { take chr(229); take chr(9787) }; say @s.perl 23:21
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«["\xE5", "☻"]␤»
viklund_ rakudo: my @s = gather { take chr(229); take chr(9787) }; say @
rakudo: my @s = gather { take chr(229); take chr(9787) }; say @s
p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«say requires an argument at line 2, near " @"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:2416)␤»
rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«å☻␤»
viklund_ it isn't
TimToady it's supposed to return a capture to be incorporated into gather's CoC
viklund_ viklund: your error is elsewhere...
Capture of Captures?? 23:22
TimToady yes
or LoL, if we rename capture to list
which will result in LoLCoDe
viklund_ ehm...
sjohnson1 LOLCODE is hilarious 23:23
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sjohnson1 i honestly laughed very loudly when i read about it on its official site 23:24
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japhb Tene,pmichaud: I *think* I've got parrot compiler export working ... but when I try it from Rakudo, I found that 'use OpenGL :from<Parrot>;' never calls Perl6::Compiler::import(). I'm assuming it should. Where do I find the :from<> code, so I can figure out what went wrong? 23:30
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sjohnson1 raise your hand if you're sick and tired of having to code things in PHP at work 23:34
sjohnson1 raises his hand
japhb Oh, hmmm, src/builtins/eval.pir perhaps. Looks like it tries to do the import from another HLL by itself. 23:35
japhb investigates further.
Personally, I'm getting really tired of having to code Perl 5 at work. Hence my reason for working on Perl 6. :-) 23:37
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sjohnson1 japhb: me too in some cases 23:42
relying on String::Strip to quicly do things, then changing systems, is driving me nuts
StripLTSpace I use a lot
but would much rather use $string.trim in P6
which would yield me greater happiness
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