»ö« | perl6-projects.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot: perl6: say 3;' | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz_ on 27 June 2009.
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dalek kudo: ee1fd13 | pmichaud++ | src/classes/Multi.pir:
Allow .WHAT and other p6object methods on Parrot MultiSub objects (RT #66928).
 00:35
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dalek kudo: 7fdd7c8 | pmichaud++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
Bump PARROT_REVISION so we get some Parrot fixes (RT #66060).
 00:41
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pugs_svn r27345 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT #66928 01:45
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dalek kudo: 6c6299f | pmichaud++ | src/builtins/globals.pir:
Fix %*VM<config> (RT #66818).
 02:45
kudo: 5351a33 | pmichaud++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
Bump PARROT_REVISION to get fix for RT #66840 (ternary error shouldn't exit)
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pugs_svn r27346 | kyle++ | [t/spec] unfudge the RT #66840 test since it passes in Rakudo 5351a33 02:55
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pugs_svn r27347 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec]: Unfudge test for unicode method names (now fixed in Parrot). 03:02
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azawawi good morning 06:06
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pugs_svn r27348 | kyle++ | [t/spec] fix the plan I broke in what.t 06:08
Matt-W morning azawawi
eternaleye Hi azawawi, Matt-W 06:09
moritz_ good morning
Matt-W wants to know how to move an operator into the setting
eternaleye oh hai, moritz_
Matt-W: Just define it in the setting, remove it from the PIR, and spectest! 06:10
Matt-W eternaleye: it causes a null pmc access :(
moritz_ ... in find_method?
eternaleye Well, that's _never_ right
moritz_ which operator?
Matt-W moritz_: yes. I was trying to do infix:<leg>
eternaleye I was just thinking, we're going to need to be careful defining operators in terms of other operators, because we might get an infinite recursion going. 06:11
moritz_ Matt-W: you also have to remove it from build/gen_junction_pir.pl
Matt-W ah
Matt-W tries that 06:14
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Matt-W ah that's better :) 06:14
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Matt-W just have to wait for spectest now 06:15
eternaleye rakudo: my @seed = 2, 3; .say for @seed ... -> *@prev { state $c = 0; return () if $c > 100; my $cur = @prev[*-1]; while ++$cur { return $cur unless $cur % any( @prev ) == 0 }; };
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«5␤»
eternaleye rakudo: my @seed = 2, 3; .say for @seed ... -> *@prev { state $c = 0; return () if $c > 100; my $cur = @prev[*-1]; while ++$cur { last unless $cur % any( @prev ) == 0 }; $cur }; 06:16
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: ( no output )
eternaleye rakudo: my @seed = 2, 3; .say for @seed ... -> *@prev { state $c = 0; return () if $c > 100; my $cur = @prev[*-1]; while ++$cur { take $cur unless $cur % any( @prev ) == 0 }; };
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«Died␤in sub infix:... (/tmp/mAFnftJ9B8:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/mAFnftJ9B8:2)␤»
eternaleye In any case, the first one appears wrong - it looks like it's returning from infix:<...> 06:17
Do we need to do a wrapping sub around $generator, so that it DWIMs
?
When I define the generator as a sub, and then use &nextprime in infix:<...>, it works 06:18
rakudo: sub nextprime( *@prev ) { state $c = 0; return () if $c > 100; my $cur = @prev[*-1]; while ++$cur { return $cur unless $cur % any( @prev ) == 0 }; }; my @seed = 2, 3; .say for @seed ... &nexprime; 06:19
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moritz_ return() is specced to exit a routine, not a block 06:19
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'infix:...'␤in Main (/tmp/lsLy8NUC4i:2)␤»
eternaleye Hmm
moritz_ you'd need leave() to leave the block, but I don't think it's implemented yet
rakudo: say { leave 3 } 06:20
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«_block49␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say { leave 3 }.()
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub leave␤»
eternaleye Ah
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eternaleye rakudo: my @seed = 2, 3; .say for @seed ... -> *@prev { state $c = 0; my $cur = @prev[*-1]; while ++$cur { break unless $cur % any( @prev ) == 0 }; $c > 100 ?? () !! $cur }; 06:21
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«Died␤in sub infix:... (/tmp/LEbFssDoqU:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/LEbFssDoqU:2)␤»
eternaleye rakudo: my @seed = 2, 3; .say for @seed ... -> *@prev { state $c = 0; my $cur = @prev[*-1]; while ++$cur { last unless $cur % any( @prev ) == 0 }; $c > 100 ?? () !! $cur };
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: ( no output ) 06:22
eternaleye Hm
Loop control is apparently NYI
moritz_ what do you mean by loop control? 06:23
last should work 06:24
eternaleye rakudo: sub nextprime( *@prev ) {{ state $c = 0; return () if $c > 100; my $cur = @prev[*-1]; while ++$cur { return $cur unless $cur % any( @prev ) == 0 }; }; my @seed = 2, 3; .say for @seed ... &nextprime;
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«Unable to parse block; couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near ""␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3279)␤»
eternaleye rakudo: sub nextprime( *@prev ) { state $c = 0; return () if $c > 100; my $cur = @prev[*-1]; while ++$cur { return $cur unless $cur % any( @prev ) == 0 }; }; my @seed = 2, 3; .say for @seed ... &nextprime;
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: ( no output )
eternaleye moritz_: last doesn't seem to work, since it loops forever on that one. If I put a say in there, it just repeats
It should give a 5, a 7, etc
rakudo: my @seed = 2, 3; .say for @seed ... -> *@prev { state $c = 0; my $cur = @prev[*-1]; while ++$cur { last unless $cur % any( @prev ) == 0; say "hi" }; $c > 100 ?? () !! $cur }; 06:25
p6eval rakudo 5351a3:
..OUTPUT«hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi􏿽xE2
moritz_ still too tired to actually *look* at the code
eternaleye or maybe...
rakudo: my @seed = 2, 3; .say for @seed ... -> *@prev { state $c = 0; my $cur = @prev[*-1]; while ++$cur { last unless $cur % any( @prev ) == 0; say "hi" }; $c > 5 ?? () !! $cur };
p6eval rakudo 5351a3:
..OUTPUT«hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi␤hi􏿽xE2
eternaleye Nope, that is what's happening 06:26
Also, does that look like a NL symbol to everyone else? Since it looks like lower-a, circumflex acce,t, space, Euro sign here
moritz_ it looks broken here too 06:27
rakudo: say 'ö'
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«ö␤»
eternaleye _weird_
moritz_ hm, that looks fine
eternaleye Bug? 06:28
Running in local rakudo
moritz_ it loooks OK on the IRC logs, though
Matt-W woohoo
my operator passed its part of the spectest
what's the preferred way to submit a patch?
moritz_ eternaleye: ah, I know why... the last NL character got trunkated, so our IRC client's autodetection thought "that's not valid UTF-8" and went beserk. 06:29
Matt-W: [email@hidden.address]
Matt-W moritz_: yes but how to make the patch
eternaleye Ah
Matt-W moritz_: unfamiliar with git for this
eternaleye Matt-W: git format-patch --stdout 'HEAD^' 06:30
and nopaste/rakudobug/email/etc it
Or remove the --stdout and it'll make a file
I like the --stdout, so I can pipe it to wgetpaste 06:31
moritz_ Matt-W: first commit it (git commit -a)
Matt-W: then git-format-patch HEAD^
Matt-W: and attach the generated file
Matt-W sends 06:34
and just in time to go to work too
I'll be back later
Matt-W -> commuting &
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moritz_ rakudo: say 'a' cmp 'b' 07:27
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«-1␤» 07:28
moritz_ rakudo: say 'b' cmp 'b'
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«0␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say 'c' cmp 'b'
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«1␤»
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moritz_ I just found out that mathematica has something similar to our [\...] meta operatr (called FoldList) 07:42
Matt-W back 07:44
moritz_: o rly? 07:46
list folds are generally very useful things
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moritz_ I first searched for reduce in the mathematica docs, but that does something entirely different :-) 08:27
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jnthn morning 08:41
pmichaud++ # blogging 08:43
moritz_ indeed.
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Matt-W moritz_: what we call reduce feels a lot like what they call a fold in Haskell 08:45
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moritz_ I know 09:07
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moritz_ Matt-W: I just replied to your patch. There's nothing wrong with this particular move, I'm just wandering of the overall design of that operator is sound 09:13
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masak IO.eof is gone? 10:53
I do wish people would discuss these things a bit before attacking the spec... :/ 10:54
jnthn masak: I'm not sure it's gone as such, perhaps just gone missing. ;-)
masak to me, IO::Endable is perilously close to abstraction astronautism.
just give me the IO.end and be done with it. 10:55
no need for a whole interface for it.
jnthn (e.g. it was meant to be defined in IO::Endable, but somehow forgot)
masak mutters into his beard
jnthn Yeah, it feels a bit...overkill.
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masak also, I think ruoso++ had an argument about why that kind of role (including IO::Readable) doesn't work in practice. 10:56
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pugs_svn r27349 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Fix a .WHAT test after review from jnthn++ 11:03
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masak rakudo: my @a := (1,2,3,4); say @a.WHAT 11:14
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«List()␤»
masak so far, so good. @a is bound to a List. I agree.
rakudo: my @a := (1,2,3,4); @a.push(4); say @a.perl; say @a.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«[1, 2, 3, 4, 4]␤List()␤»
masak but this puzzles me.
aren't Lists immutable?
moritz_ that's a rakudobug (known) 11:15
masak oh.
jnthn I think that's one of the things pm's rw work is meant to solve.
masak ah.
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dalek ok: b1e7f47 | (Hinrik Örn Sigurðsson)++ | (6 files):
Support xhtml output
 12:10
ok: 86f0183 | (Hinrik Örn Sigurðsson)++ | lib/App/Grok/Pod (2 files):
Forgot to bump these version numbers earlier
literal @tell azawawi preliminary support for xhtml output: nix.is/grok-0.07_01.tar.gz
lambdabot Consider it noted.
masak nice! literal++ 12:11
literal rakudo: say $?GRAMMAR 12:12
lambdabot literal: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«Symbol '$?GRAMMAR' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/f6Iuf7KPUx:2)␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3279)␤»
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masak rakudo: say '_' ~~ <alpha> 12:29
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«0␤»
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Matt-W moritz_: Well argue that with the spec - I checked, and it just says it's defined in terms of ~$a cmp ~$b 12:41
moritz_: You may in fact be right about which way round things should be. 12:42
ruoso Bom dia, #perl6 12:43
Matt-W (trust me to pick an operator that causes a debate...)
pmichaud good morning, #perl6
Matt-W hi ruoso, pmichaud
jnthn hi, pmichaud 12:44
pmichaud: Nice fixing and blogging!
pmichaud jnthn: thanks, you too :-) 12:45
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pmurias hi 12:45
Matt-W between the two of you things are looking a mite shinier today :)
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literal rakudo: say '_' ~~ /<alpha>/ 12:50
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«_␤»
masak oh, right.
silly me.
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pmurias ruoso: do we have a long term smop plan/ROADMAP? 12:52
jnthn Implement Perl 6. :-) 12:53
ruoso heh... jnthn++
but seriously... that's the plan... I mean
once we have multi and module loading working
pugs_svn r27350 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] correct indentation
r27351 | pmurias++ | [re-mildew] fix if bug
ruoso we can start working on Perl 6 features
pmurias and when's the bootstrap point? 12:54
ruoso well, there's the type system bootstrap
that should happen soon after we have module loading
but then there's a long way before we implement a grammar engine in SMOP
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ruoso and then this grammar engine will have to be able to run STD 12:55
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ruoso and we must be able to parse STD using that grammar engine 12:56
and, finally, have this grammar engine being used to compile STD to SMOP
and that's the real bootstrap
pmurias a partial bootstrap would be to have mildew in Perl 6 and using the STD compiled down to perl5 12:57
masak rakudo: / <[\x10000..\xEFFFF]> /; say "alive"
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: ( no output )
masak pmichaud: is this a known issue?
pmurias perl6: say [].true
masak pmurias: locally, I had a bus error.
p6eval elf 27351, rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«1␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«␤»
masak pmurias: oops, mistab. 12:58
pmichaud masak: not known issue
masak submits rakudobug
pmichaud I'm guessing parrotbug :-)
masak PGE-bug, possibly.
ruoso pmurias, even before that, just having all the Perl 6 type system written in Perl 6 is a very important milestone
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masak pmichaud: note that it hangs during execution, not during compilation. 12:58
pmichaud rakudo: / <[\x100..\xEFF]> /; say "alive" 12:59
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«alive␤»
pmichaud PGE gets that one right.
masak and the hex numbers have to be high enough for it to trigger.
pmichaud right
I suspect that Parrot strings are having difficulty with it.
pmurias ruoso: type system meaning ClassHOW,RoleHOW etc?
ruoso pmurias, and all the built-in types 13:00
pmichaud rakudo: say 0xeffff;
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«983039␤»
pmichaud oh, the problem could also be that Parrot doesn't like creating a 920+K string. 13:01
rakudo: say 0xeffff-0x10000;
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«917503␤»
pmurias 14:59 <@pmichaud> I suspect that Parrot strings are having difficulty with it. 13:04
14:59 < pmurias> ruoso: type system meaning ClassHOW,RoleHOW etc?
15:00 < ruoso> pmurias, and all the built-in types
15:00 <@pmichaud> rakudo: say 0xeffff;
ruoso pmurias, I guess you have an issue with yuor touchpad 13:05
masak rakudo: say "foo" ~~ /<[f] #[comment] + [o]>/ 13:08
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«perl6regex parse error: Error parsing enumerated character class at offset 30, found '['␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3279)␤»
masak pmichaud: I posit that this should work.
pmichaud pge doesn't understand embedded comments. 13:09
masak it does outside of <>.
pmichaud right
masak rakudo: say "foo" ~~ / fo #[ comment here! ] o /
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«foo␤»
pmichaud huh.
well, it's very likely that the part that parses <[ ... ]> doesn't understand them then. 13:10
std: /<[f] #[comment] + [o]>/
p6eval std 27351: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 36m␤»
masak submits rakudobug 13:11
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masak rakudo: module M; grammar G {}; say "foo" ~~ /<M::G>/ 13:20
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in set_attr_str()␤in regex M::_block62 (/tmp/9t1CmrXEZb:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/9t1CmrXEZb:2)␤»
masak I know that's not the way to match against a grammar, but -- look, a Null PMC access!
masak submits a rakuodbug
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PerlJam why is that not a way to match against a grammar? 13:22
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masak PerlJam: because what goes into the <> is regexes and the like. not types. 13:24
PerlJam: it's deceptively easy to try and do something like that, though.
PerlJam oh. Indeed. I apparently did a mental substitution of s/grammar/rule/ s/module/grammar/ 13:25
masak that's part of why it's easy, I guess. 13:26
Matt-W Must remember that grammars are just funny classes
it's almost like 'grammar G' is sugar for 'class G is Grammar' 13:27
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masak I haven't found that rule of thumb to help me yet. :) 13:27
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masak at least not more than "a grammar is just a funny module". 13:27
Matt-W masak: I don't usually think about it, I've just got the 'use the .parse method' thing in my head
masak aye. 13:28
moritz_ but that doesn't work if you want to handle control to another grammar
from within a grammar
masak g'ah, the error reporting sucks! 13:29
moritz_ like rule link { '<a' 'href=' <URI::Gramamr::Call> ... }
masak does anyone want to help me diagnose a problem?
masak tickles himself with the "don't ask to ask" feather 13:30
hold on, I'll just push the latest commits
there. if someone would clone grampa, run 'make test' and tell me whence the 'Null PMC access in find_method()' comes... 13:32
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masak ah, found it. nvm. 13:37
moritz_ so what was it? 13:38
masak rakudo: module A; grammar G {}; say ?G.parse("foo")
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in find_method()␤in Main (/tmp/jx8uygHmjM:2)␤»
masak rakudo: module A; grammar G {}; say ?A::G.parse("foo")
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«The grammar has no TOP rule to invoke.␤in Main (/tmp/hezoJQJVrc:2)␤»
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masak I don't know, but I have a feeling that one's reported. 13:40
still very hard to track down. I realised that was it when I had completely disables the whole grammar and the problem still remained. 13:41
pmichaud it's the general "we don't know how to handle nested namespaces" issue.
masak aye.
pugs_svn r27352 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Mark where RT #60992 is tested. 13:42
Matt-W Hmm 13:44
Sounds like that one needs a fix
pmichaud: thanks for commenting on my patch
pmichaud Matt-W: you're welcome -- thanks for the patch.
Matt-W I just poked around until I found an operator that looked nice and simple 13:45
pmichaud You picked a good one. :-)
There are some others lying about.
Matt-W Yeah I only had time for the one
13:45 PacoLinux joined
pmichaud From a performance perspective, it might be worthwhile to also write a infix:<leg>(Str $a, Str $b) { ... } variant. 13:46
Matt-W Mmm good point
would save two calls to prefix:<~>(Str)
pmichaud but we can/should probably wait until we have a way to measure the performance :-)
Matt-W (in the str case)
yes :)
or perhaps until there aren't various other crippling performance issues :) 13:47
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masak I keep forgetting that the '?' quantifier creates Arrays in the Match tree... 13:52
jnthn masak: Took me a while to remember that one too. :-)
pmichaud yes, I've had that trouble also. Especially since in an earlier draft of the spec the ? quantifier *didn't* create arrays. :-)
masak oh, so it was added? 13:54
would be interesting to hear the rationale for that.
it doesn't feel immediately obvious that it should.
pmichaud "all quantifiers produce arrays"
masak ok, so consistency.
pmichaud right.
also so that ? remains the same as ** 0..1
masak oh, that's a nice reason. 13:55
pmichaud previously ? was the exception to the rule... and I think the desire was to eliminate exceptions.
Matt-W it makes a nice consistency
? not matching just gives you an empty array
which suits me
although I thought the whole capture thing was broken last night... turned out I'd made a stupid one-character mistake 13:56
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Matt-W no matter how cool Perl 6 is, it's not going to protect us from those 13:56
masak no, but clueful error messages go a long way. 13:57
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Matt-W well my mistake was syntactically valid... 13:59
I was just ending up with an undefined value
which should not have been undefined
I thought it wasn't capturing properly 14:00
but of course it was
noooo
$colleague over there *points* is eating an ice cream!
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masak Matt-W: ice cream is overrated. it's just frozen sugar. 14:04
jnthn Frozen flavorings too!
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Matt-W and frozen cream! 14:15
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masak Rakudo still returns 0 when it finds a syntax error. :/ 14:29
that way, running 'make test' proceeds to the tests even when the build fails. 14:31
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masak ooh, I found another one! 14:33
rakudo: regex foo { foo }; "foofoofoo" ~~ /<foo>+/; bar($<foo>); sub bar(@foos) {}
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«Parameter type check failed; expected Positional, but got List for @foos in call to bar␤in sub bar (/tmp/FtrwyZv3La:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/FtrwyZv3La:2)␤»
masak jnthn: how does that happen?
masak submits rakudobug 14:34
jnthn Probably to do with the way Match objects are made perhaps 14:37
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pmichaud I'm guessing that ResizablePMCArray doesn't ~~ Positional 14:37
jnthn rakudo: regex foo { foo }; "foofoofoo" ~~ /<foo>+/; say $<foo>.PARROT
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«ResizablePMCArray␤»
jnthn Right.
pmichaud That's likely to be an issue.
moritz_ rakudo: my @a = 3, 4; say @a.PARROT 14:38
masak it is an issue.
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«Perl6Array␤»
jnthn Not sure quite what we can do about it off hand.
moritz_ can't you just invoke some magic that type-maps RPA to Perl6Array?
pmichaud moritz_: not easily.
masak more workaroundly, what's the easiest way to convert the former to the latter?
buubot masak: Sorry, no more output
pmichaud but in the larger sense, we need for non-Rakudo arrays to still be treated as Positional
masak buubot: shush! 14:39
buubot Couldn't match input.
moritz_ is about to kick buubot
pmichaud i.e., if we're ever to get language interop to work.
jnthn Probably need to as a fall-back check if it provides array from a Parrot POV too.
pmichaud I'd be fine with adjusting Positional.ACCEPTS to check "does array"
jnthn Me too, if that was actually easy to do. 14:40
pmichaud it's not?
masak ah. .list worked.
jnthn Not until we have a decent way to provide a non-punning ACCEPTS on a role or something. 14:41
I (and afaict the spec) are a bit hazy on that area. 14:42
pmichaud how does Positional.ACCEPTS work now?
jnthn It's just Perl6Role::ACCEPTS 14:43
Positional is an instance of Perl6Role
pmichaud and we can't override ACCEPTS ?
jnthn Not without mixing another ACCEPTS into Positional, but not sure what else that would do as a side-effect. 14:44
pmichaud okay. 14:45
jnthn Though this is all tied into "how we do define non-punned methods on a role separate from punned ones?"
pmichaud I don't understand "non-punned" versus "punned" in this context.
jnthn And I've not seen an answer to that yet.
role Foo { }; Foo.new # puns
Foo.ACCEPTS($thingy) # can't pun 14:46
At the moment, the dispatcher just has a "magic list"
But that's almost certainly not the Right Answer.
I just don't know what the right answer is.
pmichaud Oh. Do the :U, :D, etc modifiers have anything to do with that?
or is that totally separate?
jnthn Possibly.
Matt-W hmm, a magic list sounds bad 14:47
jnthn We could maybe make them mean that in the role invocant case.
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jnthn Would need to think some more on how sane that is. 14:47
Matt-W In my head, it's all simple 14:48
Until I remember that PGE is a Parrot thing, and is going to speak Parrot types that don't know about things like ACCEPTS
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pmichaud well, I may be able to get PGE to do some sort of type mapping, but specifying that mapping is a bit of a pain atm. 14:49
masak interoperability theory is so much easier than interoperability practice.
Matt-W interoperability is easy the moment you try something more complicated than making something interoperate with itself
*until the
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Matt-W Does this also have impact on things like getting objects back from, say, a Ruby module? 14:52
Or is that a different problem
pmichaud same problem.
Matt-W well that's something at least
only have to solve it once...
14:53 finanalyst left
Matt-W seems easy to say oh let's have some sort of mapping so that we know that RubyList and ResizablePMCArray do Positional, but I guess that could get big and fragile 14:53
pmichaud jnthn: why is it the method that does the punning? 14:54
jnthn pmichaud: I don't get the question.
pmichaud: ah
pmichaud I would think it's vivification that forces punning.
jnthn pmichaud: It's the dispatcher that realizes you're calling a method on a role and decides "ah, we need to pun"
vivification? 14:55
pmichaud well, Foo.new # vivifies, thus puns
jnthn is confused
pmichaud Foo.bar # may not involve vivification, so no punning
jnthn Define vivifies.
Oh
pmichaud S12: When the typename happens to be a role, autovivifying it involves
attempting to create a punned class of the same name as the role.
jnthn Isn't that from the section on auto-vivifying protos, which we don't do yet anyway? 14:56
pmichaud autovivifying objects, yes.
Matt-W how does it know the difference between .new and .bar?
pmichaud but that's the only place where I see any mention of role punning atm. 14:57
jnthn Matt-W: There isn't one.
pmichaud Matt-W: presumably the difference would come about when .new attempts to do a CREATE
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Matt-W pmichaud: So the magic might actually be in CREATE then 14:57
pmichaud Matt-W: right. 14:58
masak how do I get all the named captures of a Match object?
pmichaud %/.hash
%/.hash.kv # maybe
masak thanks.
yes, that worked. I was trying .keys, but needed .hash.keys.
pmichaud it's not clear to me what .keys on $/ should produce. 14:59
moritz_ I think it was decreed that it should die with a friendly message
pmichaud while we can do that, I'm curious then about:
<a b c d>.keys 15:00
moritz_ (although I voted for a combined list of .list.keys, .hash.keys)
masak pmichaud: (0,1,2,3), no?
pmichaud masak: yes. But <a b c d> is just a capture, and a Match object is a capture, so....
Matt-W Hmm. I thought .keys only had meaning on something which actually has keys 15:01
i.e. a Hash
pmichaud Matt-W: lists have keys also
moritz_ pmichaud: stop digging up problems, and solve them instead ;-))
masak pmichaud: maybe die only in the Match case? though I wouldn't mind .keys being the same as .hash.keys for a Match.
pmichaud++ # problem wrangler 15:02
pmichaud masak: I can make it die in the Match case, yes.
Matt-W pmichaud: they do??
pmichaud masak: but should we then do the same for .kv, .values, .pairs, etc?
masak s'pose so.
pmichaud Matt-W: say <a b c d>.kv.perl;
rakudo: say <a b c d>.kv.perl;
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«[0, "a", 1, "b", 2, "c", 3, "d"]␤»
pmichaud rakudo: say <a b c d>.pairs.perl;
moritz_ please don't act on my possibly mis-rememebered answer
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«[0 => "a", 1 => "b", 2 => "c", 3 => "d"]␤»
pmichaud rakudo: say <a b c d>.keys.perl; 15:03
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«[0, 1, 2, 3]␤»
Matt-W ooh
okay
that makes sense
thanks pmichaud
masak pmichaud: right now it takes the patience of a saint to extract information out of Match trees. it's a really powerful tool, but it's far too easy to use it wrongly right now.
pmichaud masak: suggestions for things that would help? 15:04
masak pmichaud: $<a><b> not dying when $<a> isn't defined.
pmichaud rakudo: my %h; say %h<a><b> 15:05
p6eval rakudo 5351a3: OUTPUT«Method 'postcircumfix:{ }' not found for invocant of class 'Failure'␤»
KyleHa Where would be a good place for a test for this bug: rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=67124
pmichaud masak: I can fix that when I get containers cleaned up a bit.
masak \o/
pmichaud: right now, the if statements have to fill up with workaroundish circumscriptions due to that flaw. 15:06
pmichaud masak: okay, I'll prioritize that a bit.
moritz_ KyleHa: t/spec/S05-metasyntax/charset.t
masak yay
KyleHa moritz_: Thank you!
15:08 rfordinal joined
pmichaud need lunch.... bbiaw 15:09
15:09 jaldhar joined
dalek kudo: 2dded8e | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
spectest-progress.csv update: 412 files, 11592 passing, 52 failing

   S04-declarations/my.rakudo aborted 47 test(s)
   S12-enums/basic.rakudo 27 - short name of the enum without parenthesis is an enum
   S32-num/rand.rakudo aborted 4 test(s)		 15:12
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masak ok, Grampa now does something useful. it can now search for things like '//foo/bar', which puts it in an advantage versus just treating the Match tree directly. 15:14
so if you ever need to recurse through a tree of Matches, Grampa's the thing.
pugs_svn r27353 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT #67124 15:15
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jnthn grampa? 15:17
jnthn can't keep track of all the Perl 6 projects :-) 15:18
masak jnthn: it's easy, they're all listed in proto's projects.list :)
jnthn: Grampa traverses Match trees with XPath expressions.
since XPath is so darn useful in other places too, we'll likely make the core XPath engine pluggable. 15:20
but DOM maps pretty nicely over Match trees, actually. 15:21
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masak the <from to Str> things can be mapped to DOM attributes, for example. 15:22
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literal @tell azawawi actually, just try 0.08 instead (it's on CPAN now) 15:49
lambdabot Consider it noted.
15:49 sri_kraih left
masak literal: I'm going swimming soon. see you at 19 UTC? 15:50
literal yep
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dalek ok: 2d5db1d | (Hinrik Örn Sigurðsson)++ | (6 files):
Detect whether a file contains Pod 5 or Pod 6
 15:55
ok: 1259af1 | (Hinrik Örn Sigurðsson)++ | (2 files):
Some minor Pod reformatting
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KyleHa Where's a good place for the test for this bug: rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=67024 16:08
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TimToady ya know, if we made captures return captures instead of arrays, a ? capture would naturally work as either an array or a scalar 16:27
s:2nd/captures/Captures/
Matt-W captures don't return Captures? Headache time... 16:28
TimToady well, maybe they should be more unified :)
Matt-W maybe they should 16:29
TimToady that was part of the reason we named them captures in the first place
because they're *like* match captures
maybe they should be liker
er, other way around
Matt-W what are the captures with a small c that you're referring to? To be precise.
TimToady /(...)/ 16:30
Matt-W ah captures in regexps
good
TimToady masak was carping about ? producing an array like ** 0..1 16:31
Matt-W he was
I agreed that consistency is good
and that I tend to think of ? as a synonym for ** 0..1 anyway
pmichaud so, would the other quantifiers also have the same effect?
for example: "foo" ~~ / ('foo')+ / 16:32
the resulting single-element Capture would naturally work as either an array or a scalar?
TimToady yes, I think so
the [0] becomes optional
whereas currently it's mandatory 16:33
Matt-W what happens if it's captured multiple things and you treat it like a scalar? You get the first one?
TimToady no, you get all of them.
a scalar capture is still just a capture until it's bound
pmichaud in my example above, what would be the value of +$0 ?
16:33 m-i-l-a-n left
TimToady good question 16:34
pmichaud or worse
16:34 m-i-l-a-n joined
pmichaud "123,123" ~~ / (\d+) ** ',' /; # +$0 == 2 16:35
"123" ~~ / (\d+) ** ',' /; # +$0 == ???
Matt-W 1, surely? 16:36
pmichaud Matt-W: surely not.
We already have this issue to some extent, though:
rakudo: say +<123 123>;
p6eval rakudo 2dded8: OUTPUT«2␤»
pmichaud rakudo: say +<123>;
p6eval rakudo 2dded8: OUTPUT«123␤»
Matt-W pmichaud: doesn't that match at all then?
oooh
hmm
TimToady if we went the total capture route, we'd have to train people to say $0.elems 16:37
pmichaud or +@$0
rakudo: say +@(123) 16:38
TimToady might be worth it for the consistency
p6eval rakudo 2dded8: OUTPUT«1␤»
Matt-W I tend to say .elems anyway, somewher eI got in my head that the array in scalar context thing didn't work in perl 6 anyway
I think the consistency is a big win, the trick is training people how captures behave
pmichaud rakudo: say +@(123,123)
p6eval rakudo 2dded8: OUTPUT«2␤»
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TimToady rakudo: say (123).elems 16:39
p6eval rakudo 2dded8: OUTPUT«1␤»
Matt-W must learn about captures 16:40
pmichaud must learn about captures, also.
it'd be nice if our specs about captures were as immutable as the captures themselves :-P 16:41
KyleHa It'd be nice if the specs about captures were all in one place.
Matt-W it'd be nice if the specs for a lot of things were a bit more immutable!
But that'll happen one day
TimToady looks for a convenient bus to get run over by
Matt-W TimToady: you really want to leave it to us to finish? hah! 16:42
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pmichaud do we still have separate Capture and List types? Or are they fairly unified these days? 16:43
TimToady maybe, or possibly a List is a Capture that guarantees to have no nameds 16:44
don't know if that's worth anything
pmichaud would we still have Array ~~ List, then ?
TimToady so what's the mutable analog of Capture? a Harry? 16:46
pmichaud I don't know. But I have a sense that Match objects want to be mutable, at least inside of regexes. 16:47
Could be wrong about that.
TimToady in Cursor/STD we allow mutability to the extent that it doesn't interfere with simple backtracking by throwing away a cursor 16:51
pmichaud okay.
TimToady it's not "pure", and it might in fact be a premature optimization, but it seems to work out okay
Lorn moritz++ #perl5_to_perl6 awesome 16:52
TimToady it also sneakily reuses cursors when ratcheting when it knows it can get away with it
but a user-embedded closure can kinda be considered a BUILDer for the next immutable closure, in a sense 16:53
so it's allowed to cheat
KyleHa kinda considered cheat, in a sense. 16:54
TimToady when you assign to $<foo> in a closure, it's actually changing $¢<foo>, not $/<foo>
those start out the same, but $/ is the match object within the closure, and would
KyleHa See, even if I knew "user-embedded closure" and "BUILDer for immutable closure", I still wouldn't know what that meant. I'm guessing. 16:55
TimToady be overridden by an inner match, whereas $¢ is not
16:55 Patterner left, Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
TimToady mumbling to pmichaud mostly 16:55
pmichaud eagerly absorbing TimToady++'s mumblings (mostly) 16:56
servers for $otherjob crashed overnight, so today I'm having to resurrect them a bit. 16:57
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TimToady now if we ever implement "let $<foo> = ..." then we'll likely have to generate a new $¢ at that spot and let the old one exist unchanged in any backtracking lists 16:57
[particle] rakudo: '¢' ~~ /<alpha>/
p6eval rakudo 2dded8: ( no output )
[particle] rakudo: say '¢' ~~ /<alpha>/
p6eval rakudo 2dded8: OUTPUT«␤»
TimToady no more alphabetic than $
pmichaud $¢ is special, like $/ $! and $_
TimToady or €
[particle] right
why aren't i getting 0 there? 16:58
pmichaud you didn't ask for a boolean
[particle] what's the context from the smartmatch if i don't ask for boolean?
pmichaud it's the context of the say
and that context is string
arguably, though, a failed match might ought to throw a warning in that case 16:59
[particle] is the match returning Nil?
pmichaud it's returning a Match object that evaluates "false" in boolean context
[particle] rakudo: say ('¢' ~~ /<alpha>/).WHAT
p6eval rakudo 2dded8: OUTPUT«Match()␤»
pmichaud matches always return match objects.
[particle] ah, right
TimToady rakudo: say ~() 17:00
[particle] and a Match in string context is the content of the match
p6eval rakudo 2dded8: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤␤»
TimToady rakudo: say ~Nil
p6eval rakudo 2dded8: OUTPUT«Nil()␤»
pmichaud so perhaps stringifying a failed match or otherwise using it for its value should throw an exception
(i.e., it should act like a Failure) 17:01
[particle] yeah, i think so
TimToady again, Nil is really a value, not a type
pmichaud right -- I haven't been able to make that change yet.
[particle] it is a failure, not a match
pmichaud it's still a Match, but it has failure semantics in it.
TimToady rakudo: say ?/nonesuch/.defined 17:02
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p6eval rakudo 2dded8: OUTPUT«1␤» 17:02
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TimToady if failures report defined, foo() // die won't work 17:02
pmichaud right 17:03
so I think I need to adjust Match objects to have Failure semantics on failed matches
TimToady we have failure to communicate :)
pmichaud the spec probably wants some explication there. 17:04
because I didn't pick that up from reading the current spec.
TimToady S02:616
pmichaud I meant S05.
TimToady hmm. in the Cursor model, failure to match really is () 17:05
pmichaud and ().defined is false?
rakudo: say ().defined
p6eval rakudo 2dded8: OUTPUT«0␤» 17:06
pmichaud failure to match is really (), but is that also something that does Match ?
TimToady rakudo: say () // "hi"
p6eval rakudo 2dded8: OUTPUT«hi␤»
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TimToady matching ? 0 times returns a new cursor with the same pos rather than () 17:07
dalek ok: 8227fcc | (Hinrik Örn Sigurðsson)++ | TODO:
Add a bunch of stuff to the TODO file
 17:10
ok: 5446fa1 | (Hinrik Örn Sigurðsson)++ | (3 files):
Add homepage and source repository to Makefile.PL
ok: 7d7f20f | (Hinrik Örn Sigurðsson)++ | (4 files):
Refactor the code a bit and document public methods
ok: 5a0d6ae | (Hinrik Örn Sigurðsson)++ | (9 files):
Add some author tests (Pod, Perl::Critic, etc)
ok: bb28e42 | (Hinrik Örn Sigurðsson)++ | (3 files):
Various fixes suggested by Pod::Coverage and Perl::Critic
ok: b1dddd4 | (Hinrik Örn Sigurðsson)++ | (4 files):
Bump version to 0.09
TimToady good think I have dalek lolighted in dark blue... 17:11
s/k/g/
pmichaud okay, so let me briefly test my understanding of captures (in the Perl 6 sense, not the regex sense) 17:12
(), (1), and (1,2,3) all produce captures 17:13
Nil is just another way of saying ()
Nil.perl and ().perl should result in "()"
().elems is 0, (1,2,3).elems is 3 17:15
($x).elems would end up invoking $x's .elems method
in fact, any capture with exactly one positional element delegates method calls to that element 17:16
(@a, @b).elems would produce ... ? 17:17
literal is dalek's source available publicly? 17:18
pmichaud I'm guessing (@a, @b).elems would be the same as @a.elems + @b.elems, because the .elems method on a capture will impose flattening list context on its positional elements 17:23
same for .keys, .values, etc.
jnthn pmichaud: But foo(@a, @b) doesn't flatten, no? 17:24
pmichaud jnthn: depends on how it's bound
bruce what about (%a, %b).elems or (1, 2).elems? 17:25
pmichaud (1, 2).elems would be 2
(%a, %b).elems would be %a.elems + %b.elems, or more precisely (@%a, @%b)
(%a, %b).elems would be %a.elems + %b.elems, or more precisely (@%a, @%b).elems
because .elems would implose flattening list context on %a and %b 17:26
*impose
in the foo(@a, @b) case, the arrays flatten if bound to a slurpy param
they don't flatten if bound to scalar or array params
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pmichaud (perhaps "interpolate" is a better word than "flatten" here.) 17:28
bruce so, (1, @a, %b).elems would work out as 1 + @a.elems + %b.elems, right? 17:29
pmichaud yes.
but we're not distributing .elems over the components of the capture, we're actually building a flattened list from the capture and counting the elements in that 17:30
so it's more like [1, @a, %b].elems but without creating the Array component
(because the array composer imposes interpolating list context on its elements) 17:31
TimToady I'm not sure about all that flattening in invocant position 17:32
I think the capture delegates methods it doesn't recognize itself 17:33
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TimToady so there at least ought to be a .elems-ish method that a Capture can answer 1 to 17:34
pmichaud what would it delegate to...?
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TimToady even if you say (@x).capelems 17:34
it only delegates if there's a single *mumble* in the Capture 17:35
if it's not an element, what is it?
.args?
pmichaud I agree it would be good to ask a capture for its positionals without any flattening 17:36
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pmichaud would @x.capelems and (@x).capelems be different in that case, though? 17:36
jnthn -> dinner, hopefully some Rakudo time later on
TimToady there's no capture on the left one 17:37
pmichaud so, it's no longer true that (@x) is the same as @x
okay.
TimToady but capelems is unweildy
and it's really strange to ask a Match object for .args 17:38
pmichaud jnthn: do we have an easy way to delegate methods (e.g., from a builtin?)
well, normally for a Match object I recommend @$/.elems or %$/.elems
which comes around to the earlier discussion that perhaps $/.keys (and $/.values $/.elems etc.) should throw an ambiguity exception of some sort 17:39
TimToady +@()
ruoso TimToady, I always understood that a capture returning an array something as "a capture returning something that behaves like an array" 17:40
dalek ok: 8436b20 | (Hinrik Örn Sigurðsson)++ | lib/App/Grok (2 files):
Make a couple of diagnostic messages friendlier
TimToady well, it does positional readonly, not necessarily read/write 17:41
I fear a lot of our roles are really two different roles for ro vs rw
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ruoso TimToady, isn't ro/rw'ness a state? 17:41
TimToady define state 17:42
ruoso I mean... does it really make sense to have different roles for ro and rw?
some list might be read only or read write depending on runtime issues
is it really necessary to bring that distinction to the type system/
?
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TimToady it's just a little strange to say that something provides the Array interface but will fail at anything outside Positional 17:43
and does Positional include lvalue subscripts? 17:44
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ruoso I always thought so 17:44
pmichaud I've lost the thread here, I fear.
ruoso sometimes they are read only
sometimes they are not
pmichaud, I was backlogging
and brought an issue from about 1 hour ago 17:45
pmichaud we're still discussing that same issue, I thought.
ruoso ok... trying to put it another way, if Capture has a capitalized C, it means any object can be a Capture 17:46
17:46 clintongormley left
ruoso since it's not a native type 17:46
pmichaud thus far I've just been trying to nail down the behavior of captures, without worrying about whether it's a native type.
ruoso the behavior, imho, is the union of Array and Hash 17:47
but it is read-only
pmichaud in which case you really mean List and Mapping
instead of Array and Hash?
ruoso is there really a difference in API between List and Array? 17:48
pmichaud yes.
Array.push
ruoso but, in theory, "my List $a = (1,2,3); $a[$a.elems] = 2" wouldn't fail in compile-time, right? 17:49
since List implements .[]
pmichaud it's a readonly .[] 17:50
TimToady the compiler is allowed to complain about things it knows will fail
pmichaud but it's not required to complain here.
it would complain at runtime, though.
ruoso does the Multi dispatch considers the return of the method when choosing the candidate?
pmichaud ruoso: consider my Range $a = 1..3; $a[$a.elems] = 2 # fail 17:51
ruoso in run-time
the compile can't know that the Range that will be stored in $a is read-only or not 17:52
s/compile/compiler/
pmichaud Ranges are immutable.
ruoso the default Range implementation is immutable
pmichaud at any rate, it can know as much in the Range case as it can in the List case you gave above, I think.
ruoso but I can have some weird object that says true to .does(Range)
pmichaud, that's the poitn
17:53 KyleHa left
pmichaud what's the point? 17:53
ruoso it can't know about List as well
17:53 fridim_ joined
pmichaud fair enough. 17:53
but I don't understand the larger point that you're getting at.
ruoso there's no point in having different roles for ro and rw
this is a runtime state
of each particular object
pmichaud there could be a point other than compile-time detection of things, though. 17:54
or we could compile-time detect things other than the examples you've given
ruoso I'm thinking about the API itself, not about the hints it gives to the compiler 17:55
pmichaud I'm still lost. But I don't feel a strong need to find myself on this particular issue.
ruoso I'm proposing the merge of List and Array, Hash and Mapping 17:56
and Capture is a union of both APIs
pmichaud What methods would a capture object "recognize itself"?
ruoso what do you mean?
pmichaud 17:33 <TimToady> I think the capture delegates methods it doesn't recognize itself 17:57
ruoso I'm not sure I see any delegation happening... 17:58
a Capture in Item context might return a different object, when there's only one item inside it
but other than that, it's a regular container
pmichaud clearly ($x).foo delegates the foo method call to $x
ruoso that's because ($x).foo uses the capture in item context
pmichaud and in the case of ($x, $y).elems ? 17:59
ruoso 2
pmichaud right, but what received the .elems ?
ruoso the Capture
pmichaud so the Capture *does* understand some methods
ruoso and that's when the need for a capture sigil emerges 18:00
18:00 mvuets joined
ruoso pmichaud, the Capture understand the Array and Hash API 18:00
pmichaud ruoso: I'm not disagreeing. But then TimToady made his comment that "the capture delegates methods it doesn't recognize itself" 18:01
thus my question
17:56 <pmichaud> What methods would a capture object "recognize itself"?
TimToady was blathering
what can I say to get ((),(),()) to return 3
@@, I guess 18:02
ruoso ((),(),()).elems does return 3
pmichaud No.
it returns 0.
TimToady @ flattens
@@ doesn't
lambdabot doesn't
ruoso where is the @
?
pmichaud ruoso: (@a, @b).elems
ruoso ah... that's a different case 18:03
pmichaud it's not.
ruoso but...
I'm not sure (@a, @b).elems return somethign different from 2
because it hasn't been flattened yet
if you say
pmichaud You didn't read my comments from earlier.
TimToady then why does (@a).elems not return 1 18:04
pmichaud fair enough. If TimToady++ says that (@a, @b).elems returns 2, I'll make it happen that way in Rakudo.
ruoso my ¢foo = (@a, @b); say ¢foo.elems
pmichaud but I don't think that's been the expectation.
ruoso TimToady, because of the Capture DWIM
PerlJam ruoso: but what about what *I* mean? :)
ruoso the barrier that determines the flattening is not the infix:<,>, nor is the circumfix:<( )> 18:05
but the enforcing of the list context
PerlJam I've only been paying attention for about a minute here and it already seems confusing. I typically just look for a nice clear rule I can follow to predict how code will behave and I'm not seeing one.
ruoso when you assign to @a, for instance
PerlJam, there are two ;)
PerlJam ruoso: that's one fewer than 0, 1, infinity at any rate :) 18:06
pmichaud ruoso: as I speculated earlier, (@a, @b).elems returns @a.elems + @b.elems because .elems imposes list context on the capture. But if (@a, @b) is to return 2, I'll happily adjust my worldview to that position. I just want to see it clearly stated somewhere. 18:07
ruoso pmichaud, how .elems imposes list context?
TimToady the original question was how we get 0/1 from /(...)?/
if we make it a real capture with the Capture DWIM 18:08
pmichaud yes, but I'm just looking for clarification of how captures work in general.
ruoso maybe the problem is the Capture DWIM
pmichaud Obviously ruoso++ and I don't have the same picture in mind.
I don't mind if my picture is incorrect, but I'd like to know that's the case because... well, I'm tired of Rakudo reporting incorrect results for things like (), Nil, and the like. 18:09
I'd really like to fix it.
So I'm looking for clarification on what we really mean by something like (@a, @b).elems or +(@a, @b) 18:10
as well as the other items that I speculated above, following the section of "let me briefly test my understanding of captures..." 18:11
TimToady so perhaps we should generate a short list of examples and what our various expectations of them might be
ruoso I see... one thing I'm trying to keep in mind is that premature flatenning was one of the worst mistakes in p5
pmichaud yes, that's what I was doing above.
(generate a short list of examples)
TimToady scattered throughout IRC is not my idea of a list :P 18:12
pmichaud fair enough -- we have wikis.
TimToady we need to capture it :)
ruoso )PGUP,PGUP(
pmichaud we can also do something like google docs, which makes it easier to collaborate in real time
pmichaud starts a google doc
ruoso trying to get to a more concrete question, 18:13
I think the issue resides in "where is the flattening barrier?"
TimToady ruoso: on a different subject (yesterday's), I'm currently thinking that for bare names we have an object in the stash that is not the type object but points to things like type object, stash, or value 18:15
biab &
ruoso feels a disturbance in the force, by the remote presence of globs
18:16 mizioumt joined 18:19 clintongormley joined, athomason joined
ruoso TimToady, honestly, I think having more sigils, or even the "::" "post-sigil" is a much better elegant way to solve the problem 18:22
skids Then there's www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....erl6_tasks But of course, if we follow OpenSource tradition every time "we need a wiki page for that" we make a new one, even if 3 more alrwady exist :-) 18:23
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pmichaud skids: I specifically didn't aim directly for the perl6 wiki because I find editing it to be a pain. 18:23
(and I like wikis.) 18:24
(other than the perl6 wiki, that is)
18:24 clintongormley1 left
ruoso (social text)-- 18:24
Tene pmichaud: ever tried the verious wiki-as-filesystem FUSE projects? 18:27
pmichaud Tene: not really.
Tene Okay. Passingly curious. 18:28
18:28 nihiliad joined
pmichaud spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=rZO...mYnFt5Ck1g # a spreadsheet with initial capture notes 18:28
skids
.oO(collaborative editing mode/IRC integration for November?)
pmurias Tene: are you a FUSE user?
Tene pmurias: occasionally. 18:30
18:30 macae joined 18:33 mizioumt1 left
pmichaud ruoso: perhaps Capture ~~ Positional and Capture ~~ Associative 18:35
as opposed to Capture ~~ Array and Capture ~~ Hash ?
if Capture ~~ Array, then I would expect to be able to do Capture.push 18:36
ruoso pmichaud, well... yeah... I still don't see much the boundaries between Array, List and Positional
pmichaud ruoso: that's reasonable. I'm working more from "what is currently specced" than from "what I'd like to see"
I do know that it's traditional in Perl (5) to distinguish "list" and "array"
one key distinction is that @a = .... is different from ($a, $b) ==== 18:37
oops, one =
@a = ... # array assignment
lambdabot Maybe you meant: activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask . ? @ v
pmichaud ($a, $b) = ... # list assignment
which somewhat argues that array != list 18:38
ruoso is that *really* different?
pmichaud rakudo currently relies on the distinction, yes.
ruoso I mean, in both cases, you need to take the rhs, get an iterator, and push into the lhs the values... the difference is what you do before that 18:39
18:39 xomas left
pmichaud "push into the lhs" is a little different, though. 18:40
ruoso only to the extent that the lhs is different
not the process
pmichaud right, but the lhs being different is exactly what I'm referring to here.
ruoso but they are *implemented* differently 18:41
pmichaud 18:38 <ruoso> is that *really* different?
18:41 <ruoso> but they are *implemented* differently
ruoso but they follow the same API
pmichaud answer to your question: Yes, they're *really* different (in implementation)
ruoso does that needs to be represented as the presence of other built-in type? 18:42
pmichaud just because things follow the same API doesn't mean they are the same.
ruoso couldn't it be private to the implementation?
pmichaud That's the whole point of an API :-)
ruoso pmichaud, but we're precisely discussing the API itself
pmichaud iiuyc, you're saying that Array and capture (list) are essentially the same 18:43
I'm pointing out a place where their behavior differ
they may have the same api, but the fact that the behaviors differ argues for them being different types
or for one being a subtype of another
18:43 clintongormley left
ruoso ok, we're arguing about different things 18:44
I'm talking about what's the built-in API
pmichaud I'm still just trying to understand what a capture does :-)
ruoso as the Perl 6 spec defines
each implementation is free to have different types to fulfill implementation details
so, back to capture
pmichaud the primary way I know to understand a type is to know how it responds to certain stimuli
skids @a[0] := $a; @a[1] := $b; (@a[1],@a[2]) = ...; @a[1..2] = ...; @a = ...; # which does what?
18:45 justatheory left
ruoso Capture does Positional | List | Array; # let's wait to collapse that later 18:45
Capture does Associative | Mapping | Hash; # let's wait to collapse that later
pmichaud ruoso: good by me
skids: the first two assignments have the effect of modifying $a and $b
the last assignment simply gives @a a new set of values. 18:46
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skids That's what I thought. thanks. 18:46
masak #p6s in 14.
pmichaud ...#p6s ?
literal #perl6-soc
pmichaud ah, thanks.
masak weekly meeting.
pmichaud freenode? 18:47
masak aye.
pmichaud lurks.
masak backlogs
ruoso pmichaud, we're saying that () generates a capture... so what's the role of infix:<,>? 18:48
pmichaud it separates the elements of a capture
ruoso but what happens in 18:49
pmichaud I should note that I still haven't grown comfortable with the idea of () generating a capture... that ends up being a bit new to me.
ruoso ¢foo = 1, 2, 3
is that just a syntax sugar for (1, 2, 3)?
skids
.oO(implicit ()'s because there's a , ?)
pmichaud I'm okay if infix:<,> also produces a capture.
ruoso pmichaud, you mean instead of a List 18:50
pmichaud internally I'm somewhat working from the premise that "capture" and "list" mean the same thing.
and that it's really "argument list"
but that we call it "list" for short.
18:50 mizioumt1 joined
ruoso if your list support named elements as well... 18:50
pmichaud yes
ruoso that's the only difference
pmichaud list might end up supporting named elements.
ruoso (that and the DWIM
pmichaud but that also make it fit better with the notion of "lists" from a syntactic sense, as in "argument lists" (which can have named elements) 18:51
ruoso ok... if we switch from () generating captures to infix:<,> 18:52
pmichaud if we simply say that infix:<,> produces captures, then I'm not sure that we need circumfix:<( )> to do so.
ruoso it might have some impact on the ($x).elems issue
pmichaud heh... great minds think alike :-)
I think that ($x).elems should be the same as $x.elems
ruoso ok... how that works in "return $x"? 18:53
do we simply send $x instead of a capture
?
pmichaud I don't know yet -- that part is still fuzzy to me. Along with how we deal with "take $x" inside of a loop.
ruoso in theory, it's the same issue 18:54
pmichaud sure.
ruoso if I see what you mean
pmichaud the real question is how do we unpack the capture in $a = foo() where foo has done "return $x" 18:55
(assuming there's a capture)
ruoso that's when the DWIM emerged
pmichaud for "return $x" itself, we know there's a capture because that's what is passed to the return() function.
I'm fine with capture of one element still delegating
ruoso it doesn't delegate
it disappears
leaving that object in its place
pmichaud just because ($x) doesn't produce a capture doesn't mean we still can't have captures-of-one-element 18:56
in particular, ($x,) could still be a capture.
ruoso right
it would, indeed
pmichaud anyway, for $a = foo() I would guess that $a gets the item from the capture 18:57
ruoso exactly
pmichaud somewhat more interesting is the case where foo does "return $x, $y"
ruoso in that case, it will store the capture
pmichaud in that case there probably ought to be a warning
ruoso not $x
why?
since my $a = (1,2,3) doesn't 18:58
pmichaud no, but foo(1,2) does give a mismatch
dalek ok: f2b5b09 | (Hinrik Örn Sigurðsson)++ | lib/App/Grok/Pod (2 files):
Fix a typo and change the wording of an error msg
ruoso pmichaud, assignment is not binding
pmichaud right
I know that.
ruoso if you try
:($a) := foo(); and foo return 1,2 18:59
it will fail
masak rakudo: my $r = 1..9; $r.pop; say $r.perl # pmichaud: if ranges are immutable, how come I can pop from them?
p6eval rakudo 2dded8: OUTPUT«1..8␤»
pmichaud it will also fail with ($a, $b, $c) = foo()
ruoso fail? $c will still be undefined, but not failure
pmichaud no, it's failure.
ruoso by spec? 19:00
pmichaud ($a, $b, $c) = (1, 2) # fails
perhaps I'm misremembering 19:02
the spec does say
($a, $b) = (1, 2, 3, 4) # warns
ruoso that's fair.. since the runtime can detect that some items were lost
TimToady um, S03:2443
pmichaud TimToady: okay, got it. Thanks. 19:03
TimToady my ($a,$b,$c) is a degenerate case of =()
pmichaud so ($a, $b, $c) = (1, 2) # leaves $c as undef
TimToady yes
pmichaud my apologies for getting it wrong
TimToady not wrong, just not what is specced :) 19:04
pmichaud still, having $a = foo() give $a the capture itself feels funny
it feels like I should have a special notation that says "I want the capture" rather than that being the default
ruoso maybe we start requiring the capture sigil to get the capture 19:05
TimToady that one is jsut the Capture DWIM
ruoso and item will always get the first element
TimToady no
skids But then if it does return a capture and you use the notation, do you get a capture of a capture?
TimToady no throwing away data like P5
ruoso point taken 19:06
so
my $a = foo();
will get a capture,
which means that
pmichaud okay.
ruoso if foo return @a, @b
$a.elems return 2
pmichaud that still seems open for discussion.
in the same sense that
my $a = (@a, @b)
could have .elems return something other than 2 19:07
ruoso indeed...
pmichaud (I'm fine with $a = foo() causing $a to get a capture.)
ruoso it's a matter of where the flattening barrier is
er... in my $a = (@a, @b), $a does get a Capture
pmichaud right. 19:08
although whether that's because of the infix:<,> or the circumfix:<( )> is undecided (based on earlier discussion in this thread)
ruoso I actually currently think infix:<,> is a more precise way of defining it 19:09
pmichaud I do like the notion that 3*($a+5) doesn't involve any captures.
at least, not because of the parens
(we still get captures from infix:<*> and infix:<+>, I guess) 19:10
ruoso yeah
pmichaud (but they may be optimizable away)
ruoso indeed
TimToady return types have to be good for something...
pmichaud masak: (ranges) there was a spec change at npw that declares ranges as immutable. Rakudo hasn't caught up. 19:13
masak: in particular, .pop and .shift are now gone from that part of the spec.
19:14 mizioumt left
pmichaud masak: indeed, part of the reason that rakudo hasn't caught up is because Ranges need to be refactored to be properly Positional, and doing that means we really need a good understanding of captures. Hence, the discussion today. 19:14
masak submits rakudobug
pmichaud we also need to remove the tests for .pop and .shift from the suite. 19:15
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masak I like ranges better when they're immutable. 19:15
pmichaud yes, me also.
TimToady I'm thinking .elems should be undefined on a multi-arg capture, probably
pmichaud TimToady: same for values, prefix:<+>, .keys, etc? 19:16
keep in mind we get weird things like 19:17
my $a = <a b c d>; say $a.elems
which would not like having .elems undefined.
(the correct formulation would have to be @$a.elems or something like that.) 19:18
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TimToady $a[].elems 19:19
ruoso I think we'll need to assume lists work differently in p5 than in p6
and that flattening needs to be explicit
so
TimToady, the problem about that is that the flattening will have to be implemented by the capture itself
TimToady or we need something VAR() like to get at naked capture 19:20
pmichaud yes, there does seem to be a point where captures start to look like fancy containers. 19:21
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ruoso that's why I think the flattening needs to be external to the capture 19:22
by explicit operations
$a[].elems kinda work 19:23
because it means we have postfix:<[]>
pmichaud there's still prefix:<*> :-)
TimToady er, no
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masak :) 19:23
TimToady have to know whether to expect term/infix after
pmichaud okay. 19:24
ruoso std: multi postfix:<[]> {}; say $a[].elems;
p6eval std 27353: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Variable $a is not predeclared at /tmp/pJNrZxsLxp line 1:␤------> multi postfix:<[]> {}; say $a[].elems;␤ok 00:03 43m␤»
ruoso yeah... postfix:<[]> is ok... and this operator is responsible for getting it flatten 19:25
so...
(@a, @b)[].elems is different than (@a, @b).elems
pmichaud wait, I have a question about that.
pugs_svn r27354 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] 19:26
r27354 | pmurias++ | prefix:<->
r27354 | pmurias++ | Code.arity
r27354 | pmurias++ | multis do simple sorting of signatures based on positionals
r27354 | pmurias++ | stringifing negative integers works (as do negative integers)
r27354 | pmurias++ | Role.ACCEPTS($object) also checks if the object has composed Role
r27354 | pmurias++ | Array.true always returns true
pmichaud my $a = (@a, @b); say $a[5]; # flattens?
19:26 amoc left
ruoso pmichaud, no 19:26
pmichaud how would I get @a or @b themselves out of the capture?
ruoso $a[0] and $a[1]
pmichaud oh, and to get the 5th flattened element it would be $a[][5] ? 19:27
(6th, whatever)
ruoso my $a = (@a, @b)[]; otoh...
TimToady ick
ruoso it only looks ugly while we don't look at the use of unflattened lists 19:28
I mean... 19:29
use @ if you want a flattened lsit
pmichaud (mostly eager flattened list)
ruoso or use @a <==
if you want a mostly lazy flattened list
19:30 sri_kraih left
pmichaud afk for a bit 19:31
ruoso I think this is one of the things we can say "Hey! This is really different in Perl 6, you'll have to get used to it" 19:32
huf what's the reason for it?
19:33 ejs left
huf i'd like to know why it was changed because i kinda liked the automatic list flattening in perl5. 19:33
ruoso it still has flattening
but it requires you to use the sigil to have it
skids
.oO(if lists/captures are the same and have named, what's an ordered list of pair objects look like as a literal?)
ruoso my @a = (@b, @c); will have it flattened
huf ah. 19:34
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huf so how would you have an array with the $ sigil? arrayref? 19:35
or one of these captures acts like an array in some contexts, but doesnt flatten?
ruoso huf, just backlog a bit, we've been discussing that exact issue
huf will do, thanks 19:36
skids huf: reference is a dirty word around here :-)
huf yes, i know they are dead
19:40 mvuets left 19:45 last joined
PerlJam ruoso: if @a = (@b,@c) flattens, then does (@a,@b) = (@c,@d) too? 19:48
ruoso what is this line supposed to do?
PerlJam I'd want (@a,@b) = (@c,@d) to copy the values from @c into @a, and same for @d and @b. 19:49
ruoso I'm not sure that will do it 19:50
:(@a is copy, @b is copy) := (@c, @d)
that would do it
but in the assignment, it doesn't really have a way to know when to stop putting things on @a 19:51
19:51 finanalyst left
ruoso (except if @a has a pre-defined shape) 19:51
masak could anyone with a bit more EBNF-fu than me explain how rules [3] and [11] would _not_ create an infinite regress in www.w3.org/TR/xpath ? because they do when I turn them into a Perl 6 grammar. 19:54
pmichaud masak: ebnf doesn't concern itself with left-recursion issues 19:55
i.e., left-recursion is automatically taken care of
19:56 xomas joined
masak pmichaud: I sense there's some theory behind that, probably to be found in the Dragon Book or something? 19:57
pmichaud yes, or a theory of languages course 19:58
masak reads up on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_recursion 19:59
TimToady [S09] add missing rat native types
oops
phone 20:00
20:01 justatheory left
TimToady n 20:03
oops again
masak feels the S/N ratio of the channel drop sharply... :) 20:06
20:07 exodist joined, exodist left, macae left
jnthn masak: whoz up? 20:07
;-)
masak 哈哈 20:08
ok, rewriting the Grampa XPath grammar so it'll take advantage of Perl 6 grammars instead of trying to stay true to the XPath spec. 20:11
when I have a part of a Match tree $<foo><bar> which I know to be a list, and I want to loop over it, do I write 'for $<foo><bar> { ... }' or 'for $<foo><bar>.values { ... }'? 20:14
pmichaud maybe @($<foo><bar>) 20:15
or $<foo><bar>.list
masak ok. 20:16
pmichaud using $<foo><bar> by itself seems like it would only give one iteration
masak yes.
even though that particular thing is a List, the $ sigil makes Perl treat it like an item.
jnthn rakudo: for 1..15 -> $n { when $n % (3&5) { say "FizzBuzz" }; when $n % 3 { say "Fizz" }; when $n % 5 { say "Buzz" } } 20:17
p6eval rakudo 2dded8: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Fizz␤Use of uninitialized
..value␤Use of …
jnthn Am I being especially stupid this evening, or are those unit value warnings a bug?
*uninit
pmichaud what are you matching against? 20:18
masak jnthn: I thought 'when' matched against $_
jnthn oh duh 20:19
pmichaud note that $n % (3&5) isn't a boolean :-)
jnthn right
gah
masak ?() should solve it, then.
lambdabot Maybe you meant: . ? @ bf ft id pl rc v wn
masak lambdabot: oh, hush.
jnthn was pondering doing some Rakudo hacking tonight and now wonders if he really should...
masak @@ lambdabot is stupid
lambdabot lambdabot is stupid
masak :)
jnthn @@ sucks
lambdabot sucks
jnthn more input is given by all non-stupid bots 20:20
buubot jnthn: Sorry, no more output
jnthn ...output too.
masak more output, buubot, please! we beg you!
buubot masak: Sorry, no more output
jnthn we wish.
jnthn git stash apply's his traits work from Monday and continues hacking on it 20:21
20:23 iblechbot joined
jnthn wonders when S14 got marked [DRAFT] 20:24
masak is there any synopses which is not a draft? 20:25
ruoso masak, there are several levels of draftness
PerlJam It would be interesting to see one marked "final" :)
jnthn S12 isn't marked DRAFT for example. 20:26
ruoso the thing is that several concepts haven't been stressed out yet
and usually, as the implementations get there, it requires a lot of changes
jnthn Aye, but S14 is probably the synopsis that Rakudo has the best coverage of. ;-) 20:27
masak rakudo: take 5
p6eval rakudo 2dded8: OUTPUT«Died␤in Main (/tmp/uuckDsGlCB:2)␤»
ruoso masak, that's expected
masak do we suddenly have no error message for take without gather? 20:28
ruoso take should throw an exception
jnthn Did we ever have one?
ruoso a control exception
masak I'd like one.
Tene 'take' does throw an exception, one that 'gather' catches.
masak: you could add it to perl6.pir's global exception handler
check the type of the exception
masak ok; let me just create the rakudobug first, in case I fail. :) 20:29
Tene :)
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Tene TimToady: is there any specced behavior for 'take' without 'gather' or another EH? 20:30
masak I'm not 100% it should halt execution... 20:31
is there any way to resume it after giving a warning?
Tene Yes.
In fact, you could just modify the 'take' sub to set the severity to 'normal'
and it should auto-resume
masak cool! 20:32
Tene++ Parrot++
Tene ... except I think that rakudo's global exception handler grabs everything, not just non-fatal exceptions
so, maybe some issues there
jnthn rakudo: say infix:<+>(2,2)
p6eval rakudo 2dded8: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near ":<+>(2,2)"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3279)␤»
jnthn std: say infix:<+>(2,2)
p6eval std 27354: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
Tene masak: in fact, it *does* auto-resume with the EH disabled 20:33
jnthn trait_mod:<is>($declarand, $trait, &arg);
Tene so, the EH needs to either rethrow or ignore non-fatals
jnthn std: trait_mod:<is>($declarand, $trait, &arg);
p6eval std 27354: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Variable $declarand is not predeclared at /tmp/Sy7NusDoT1 line 1:␤------> trait_mod:<is>($declarand, $trait, &arg);␤ Variable $trait is not predeclared at /tmp/Sy7NusDoT1 line 1:␤------> trait_mod:<is>($declarand, $trait,
..&arg);[0…
Tene probably the latter
I can do that.
masak nice.
I'll leave it in your competent hands, and go back to hacking on Grampa. :) 20:34
Tene masak: try changing != to <= on perl6.pir:217
masak ok.
Tene: doing only that didn't help. 20:37
Tene: do I also need to check for the exception type?
Tene masak: no, you should not check for the exception type. You should use >= instead of <= like I told oyu the first time.
ETENECANTREAD
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masak tries again 20:38
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Tene erm 20:38
just >
Tene fail 20:39
masak :)
Tene but seriously, it should just be '>'
I'm confident this time.
Again.
masak I'll try that, then. 20:40
Tene: that seems to work. now it survives the take-outside-of-gather. 20:42
Tene: still no useful message, though.
just a blank line in STDERR. 20:43
Tene masak: well, no message is set in the take() function
justatheory What is "huffmanized" or "The Huffman principal"? groups.google.com/group/perl.perl6....c64556ad07
masak looks
justatheory: he's headmaster at the Huffman academy. *scnr*
justatheory There should be a definition for this…
PerlJam justatheory: things that are used often have the shortest token
Tene add $P0['message'] = 'OMG HAI MASAK!!!' as line 88 of control.pir
justatheory masak: No, that's the Huffmanator.
PerlJam: I see. 20:44
masak Tene: gotcha.
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PerlJam justatheory: or perhaps you'd say that the length of your tokens are inversely proportional to their frequency of use. 20:44
justatheory Is there a name for TimToady's rule that similar things should have very different names? 20:45
PerlJam: That's nicely put, thans.
*thanks
masak justatheory: similar things should have different names? that sounds backwards.
isn't it different things that should have different names? :) 20:46
justatheory masak: Functions that do similar names should not be named too similarly. Something like that.
Tene masak: "things that can be easily confused should have something to clearly distinguish them" perhaps
justatheory right
masak justatheory: IMO, .values and .elems are too similar in that respect.
PerlJam Tene++
Tene you wouldn't want "subst" and "substr" as functions that do slightly different things.
masak Tene: right. :) 20:47
PerlJam Tene++ again :)
justatheory Yeah, is there a name for the concept?
TimToady's Rule
masak "different things should be different"
Tene iirc there's a name in linguistics somewhere.
for something similar
justatheory Hrm, allison would know, too, then. 20:48
pugs_svn r27355 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] fix test count 20:49
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pmurias masak: the point of "similiar things should be different" is that you don't confuse them 20:50
masak pmurias: aye. I get it.
jnthn
.oO( pisat vs pistat )
masak
.oO( honourous vs onerous )
 20:51
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jnthn
.oO( laughter vs slaughter )
 20:51
jnthn watches the spectests roll by 20:52
pmichaud
.oO( through versus though versus tough versus thorough versus throughout versus thought versus ...)
dalek kudo: 468c021 | masak++ | (2 files):
[control.pir] take without gather now warns

block halted the program without explanation. This commit makes the condition non-fatal and adds a warning message. Tene++ for guidance.
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jnthn trait_auxiliary is dead. :-) 20:53
Long live trait_mod
pmichaud yay! die <trait_auxiliary> 20:54
masak rakudo: die <trait_auxiliary>
p6eval rakudo 2dded8: OUTPUT«trait_auxiliary␤in Main (/tmp/GyGvFtHLBn:2)␤»
jnthn Tomorrow trait_verb can go away.
Then we start refactoring towards multi-dispatch. 20:55
Tene On that note, many years ago the Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation decided to require all its weathermen to use the non-standard form “aust” /æʉst/ (east) in lieu of the standard form “øst” /øst/, because the latter could easily be confused with “vest” /ʋest/ (west).
jnthn Apart from, I need to fix up multi-dispatch before that...
Tene -- from another channel, where I brought the question up
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dalek kudo: 59d2b7a | jnthn++ | (5 files):
More work on bringing our traits support closer in line with S14 and STD.pm. This kills trait_auxiliary in favor of trait_mod, adds parsing and an implementation of will (just delegates to is) and parsing of hides too (not yet implemnted), so now we should parse all the trait mods that STD does.
 22:46
kudo: 3d94ef4 | jnthn++ | :
Merge branch 'master' of [email@hidden.address]
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skids justatheory: (backlogging) a close concept to the linguistic one you are looking for is the "avalanche effect" property of hash functions -- similar hash inputs must give much different outputs. 23:14
ruoso: what test should be run before committing to re-smop? 23:25
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