»ö« | perl6-projects.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz_ on 30 July 2009.
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tann rakudo: my $f = '.'; given $f { when ~~ :f { say "f" } when ~~ :d { say "d" } when ~~ :l { say "l" } default { say "unknown type" } }; 00:09
p6eval rakudo af3efa: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "default { "␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3369)␤»
meppl good night 00:11
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mikehh rakudo (af3efaf) builds on parrot r40480 make test/make spectest (up to 27955) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 00:55
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eternaleye tann: 'when' has an implicit ~~ 01:19
Also, file test operators aren't specced as :<test> anymore
rakudo: my $f = '.'; given $f { when :f { say "f" }; when :d { say "d" } when :l { say "l" }; default { say "unknown type" }; }; 01:20
p6eval rakudo af3efa: OUTPUT«d␤»
eternaleye You were missing some semicolons, too
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TimToady std: my $f = '.'; given $f { when :f { say "f" }; when :d { say "d" } when :l { say "l" }; default { say "unknown type" }; }; 01:53
p6eval std 27955: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Statements must be separated with semicolon at /tmp/jd75sBe4Tk line 1:␤------> hen :f { say "f" }; when :d { say "d" } ⏏when :l { say "l" }; default { say "unkn␤ expecting any of:␤ infix stopper␤ statement␤FAILED 00:04
..38m␤»
TimToady rakudo shouldn't have accepted yours either :)
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eternaleye TimToady: Whoops 02:29
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dduncan Is there a comparison somewhere about how complete Rakudo is compared to Pugs? Eg, is there any Perl 6 conforming the current spec which will run under Pugs but not Rakudo? 03:40
I tried the smoke server that used to exist for Pugs but it isn't contactable now.
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dduncan Also, a few years ago, it was possible to write a Perl 6 module, put it in ext/ of the Pugs project, and it had a Makefile.PL and you could run its test suite as if it were a Perl 5 module. 03:42
Can you do this with Rakudo now? Does a basic toolchain exist for TAP with Perl 6 under Rakudo?
for modules
depending on how complete things are, I'm thinking to try porting my new Set::Relation module to Perl 6 any day now 03:43
but at this point I only care about running it under Rakudo
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dalek kudo: 11a2934 | (Kyle Hasselbacher)++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
[release_guide] Volunteer to do the next release
 03:45
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missingthepoint morning all :) 05:03
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dukeleto missingthepoint: good localtime() 05:04
missingthepoint dukeleto: how did you know it's not actually morning here !?! 05:06
;)
tann rakudo: say time;
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«1249967207.51737␤»
dduncan good for youuuuuu 05:07
dukeleto rakudo: say localtime
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub localtime␤» 05:08
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eternaleye rakudo: say time().^methods.join(', '); 05:11
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«asec, cotanh, acotanh, sech, ACCEPTS, atan, asech, acos, tanh, asin, atanh, cosec, cosh, succ, acosh, perl, WHICH, cotan, atan2, Scalar, sec, tan, cos, sin, pred, acosec, sinh, asinh, cosech, acotan, acosech, Str, ceiling, p5chomp, 1, pairs, 1, 1, comb, unpolar, ord, chop, 1,
..1, ro…
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eternaleye rakudo: say Temporal.methods(Temporal.new).join(', '); 05:12
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in getprop()␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3369)␤»
eternaleye rakudo: say Temporal.new 05:13
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in getprop()␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3369)␤»
tann ouch
eternaleye rakudo: say Temporal::DateTime.methods(Temporal::DateTime.new).join(', '); 05:14
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Method 'methods' not found for invocant of class ''␤»
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eternaleye rakudo: say Temporal::DateTime.new.^methods.join(', '); 05:15
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«timezone, Int, date, time, epoch, Num, Str, iso8601, flip, 1, does, p5chop, lc, 2, 1, 1, end, 1, reduce, 1, ceiling, p5chomp, 1, pairs, 1, 1, comb, unpolar, ord, chop, 1, 1, roots, uc, reverse, keys, isa, ucfirst, 1, fmt, bytes, 2, 1, join, trim, chr, floor, rand, 1, 1, round,
..1, 1…
eternaleye rakudo: say Temporal::DateTime.new.date
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Date()␤»
eternaleye rakudo: say Temporal::DateTime.new.time.Str 05:16
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Time()␤»
eternaleye rakudo: say Temporal::DateTime.new.iso8601 05:17
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤0000-00-00T00:00:00+0000␤»
eternaleye rakudo: say Temporal::DateTime.new(:epoch(time)).iso8601
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤0000-00-00T00:00:00+0000␤»
eternaleye rakudo: say Temporal::DateTime.new(time).iso8601 05:18
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤0000-00-00T00:00:00+0000␤»
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eternaleye hm 05:18
Spec-reading time
tann oh boi, if eternaleye is having trouble with Temporal, how on earth can a novice survive this ordeal? :) 05:19
eternaleye tann: I am a novice - I've just been lurking in the channel for a long time 05:20
tann that makes you a lurking expert
eternaleye Temporal has gotten relatively little use, so I haven't had much chance to learn by osmosis. Most of the corrections I make are just repeating corrections I've seen the real experts make ;D
tann Temporal might not be much of an interest of the gurus but web dev and others certainly appreciate its ease of use 05:22
dduncan I'm interested now in the easiest way to make and test a Perl 6 module under Rakudo, eg if there's an example template with a t/*.t etc where I can run something like 'make test' and it runs under Rakudo 05:24
or where should I look for existing Perl 6 modules with automated tests, easily runnable under Rakudo
I know about the ext/ of the Pugs repo but I don't want to build Pugs, just use Rakudo
duckyd does .substr(/$var/, 'foo'); not work yet? or will it never be valid?
tann dduncan, if you run the spectest, that should be pulled in 05:25
the 't' dir that is
and you can peek at those tests
dduncan okay
and it can pull in my own new modules?
tann dduncan: no, you have to place your stuff in there
dduncan looking ... 05:26
tann look at Test.pm
dduncan okay
tann rakudo: my $s = "oh hai"; my $x = "hai"; $s.=subst(/$x/, "bai"); say $s; 05:27
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in get_string()␤in regex PGE::Grammar::_block58 (/tmp/NMkcAlc8Fr:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/NMkcAlc8Fr:2)␤»
duckyd tann: yea, that's what I'm getting :)
tann doesn't look like it works yet
duckyd funny thing is, it doesn't barf the same way for $_
rakudo: my $foo = "foo"; say "foo bar baz".subst(/$foo/, "abc"); 05:28
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in get_string()␤in regex PGE::Grammar::_block55 (/tmp/ob1uDPYyYl:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/ob1uDPYyYl:2)␤»
duckyd rakudo: say "foo bar baz".subst($_, "abc");
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤foo bar baz␤»
duckyd what's the equivalient of qr// ?
tann rakudo: $_ = 'hah"; say "hah ha ha".subst($_, "oh"); 05:29
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "= 'hah\"; s"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3369)␤»
tann rakudo: $_ = 'hah"; say "hah ha ha".subst(/$_/, "oh");
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "= 'hah\"; s"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3369)␤»
tann rakudo: $_ = "hah"; say "hah ha ha".subst(/$_/, "oh"); 05:30
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in get_string()␤in regex PGE::Grammar::_block54 (/tmp/5lX2xHAAiE:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/5lX2xHAAiE:2)␤»
duckyd oh!
rakudo: $_ = "foo"; say "foo bar baz".subst($_, "abc");
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«abc bar baz␤»
eternaleye duckyd: regexes are now first-class citizens and are a language in and of themselves, rather than being treated as strings (Quoted Regex). If you want a regex object, rx// is probably what you want.
duckyd: What is it you're trying to do? 05:31
duckyd eternaleye: ah! is that why subst wants subst($foo,.. not subst(/$foo/,...?
tann i thought, 1st arg of subst was a regex?
eternaleye Well, .subst has two variants now 05:32
One takes a string, one takes a regex
Multi-method dispatch means Perl 6 can distinguish functions and methods based on the types of their arguments 05:33
duckyd is the one that takes a regex broken?
or is the syntax /$foo/ no longer valid?
missingthepoint duckyd: i think interpolating variables in regexes is not yet implemented in rakudo 05:34
duckyd missingthepoint: okee dokee
missingthepoint (see the example above where .subst with a constant string worked)
eternaleye rakudo: my $foo = 'bar baaar baz boz'; say $foo.subst( /ba+/, 'flu' );
duckyd it's funny to me that the version with $foo rather than /$foo/ works
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«flur baaar baz boz␤»
tann rakudo: my $x = "hai"; say "oh hai" ~~ /$x/;
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in get_string()␤in regex PGE::Grammar::_block54 (/tmp/InA8SWueQh:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/InA8SWueQh:2)␤»
eternaleye rakudo: my $foo = 'bar baaar baz boz'; say $foo.subst( /ba+/, 'flu', :g ); 05:35
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«flur flur fluz boz␤»
missingthepoint rakudo: say "fruhe weinachten".subst(/<[aeiou]+>/, '')
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«perl6regex parse error: Error parsing enumerated character class at offset 49, found '>'␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3369)␤»
missingthepoint gah 05:36
rakudo: say "fruhe weinachten".subst(/<[aeiou]>+/, '')
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«frhe weinachten␤»
missingthepoint rakudo: say "fruhe weinachten".subst(/<[aeiou]>+/, '', :g)
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«frh wnchtn␤»
missingthepoint duckyd: so regexes work with .subst, but s/// and interpolating vars in regexes is NIY in rakudo
eternaleye duckyd: You can pass a closure as the second argument to .subst as well, in which case $0 is the first parentheses, and $<foo> gives the text matched by the subrule 'foo' 05:37
$/ is the whole match 05:38
duckyd eternaleye: ah, that will be useful :)
tann rakudo: say "Rakudo *".subst("*", "Star"); 05:39
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Rakudo Star␤»
eternaleye duckyd: The new grammar system has some core concepts in common with Parse::RecDescent, especially with subrules
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duckyd I always knew I'd have to learn Parse::RecDecent someday :p 05:40
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eternaleye duckyd: I highly recommend checking out the specs at perlcabal.org/syn/ 05:41
duckyd rakudo: if "foo bar baz".match("foo") { say "foo"; }
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Method '!invoke' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤»
eternaleye Especially S05, which deals with the new grammars system
duckyd eternaleye: I have been, but I guess I need to look at S05 again
eternaleye duckyd: m// works 05:42
duckyd google has been leading me to misleading things, at times
missingthepoint duckyd: i second that advice from eternaleye... the specs can be rather dense, but they yield to thinking and experimentation
eternaleye rakudo: if "foo bar baz" ~~ /foo/ { say "foo"; }
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«foo␤»
tann rakudo: @*ARGS = <a b c d>; sub MAIN($a, $b, *@c) { say $a; say $b; say @c.perl }; MAIN;
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«too few arguments passed (0) - 3 params expected␤in sub MAIN (/tmp/UGS5ZTRXPZ:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/UGS5ZTRXPZ:2)␤»
eternaleye tann: MAIN gets called before you set @*ARGS 05:43
In fact, the assignment is never called IIUC
since MAIN is the root of execution if defined
tann i thought the mainline code got called first 05:44
and what's left in ARGS would be handed off to MAIN at the last cleanup? 05:45
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tann rakudo: @*ARGS = <a b c d>; sub MAIN($a, $b, *@c) { say $a; say $b; say @c.perl }; MAIN(@*ARGS); 05:46
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«too few arguments passed (1) - 3 params expected␤in sub MAIN (/tmp/tTFvD2RQKR:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/tTFvD2RQKR:2)␤»
eternaleye tann: maybe, I'm not entirely sure mystelf
*myself
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tann it's specced here perlcabal.org/syn/S06.html#Declarin...subroutine 05:46
eternaleye duckyd: Have you seen 'when' yet? 05:47
rakudo: given "foo bar baz" { when /foo/ { say "Foo found, friend!"; }; };
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Foo found, friend!␤»
duckyd eternaleye: when is new to me. But there are a lot of perl6isms I've looked at but not played with yet, and mostly forgotten 05:48
eternaleye duckyd: given/when is basically switch/case, but smarter and with fallthrough _off_ by default 05:49
duckyd currently trying to figure out how to accomplish $foo.subst(/$bar(.*)$baz/, $first$1$second);
tann eternaleye: is 'as' a keyword?
duckyd sorry
$foo.subst(/$bar(.*)$baz/, $baz$1$bar);
eternaleye given $foo sets $_, and when $bar calls $bar.ACCEPTS( $foo ). If true, it runs the following block 05:50
tann: Not that I know of
tann then i like given ... as better
'when' is too much typing for me :D
eternaleye tann: Think of it as "given the object $foo, when it is $bar, do this" 05:51
duckyd: try this 05:52
rakudo: regex bar { qux }; regex baz { corge }; my $foo = "quxtastycorge"; say $foo.subst( rx/<bar>(.*?)<baz>/, { $<baz> ~ $0 ~ $<bar> } ); 05:53
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«corgetastyqux␤» 05:54
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missingthepoint eternaleye: thank you! :) 05:54
eternaleye duckyd: Cool, huh? 05:55
duckyd holy moly
eternaleye the '?' makes the * non-greedy, so that it doesn't eat the 'qux'. I could have left it out, though, and it would have backtracked since it couldn't match the subrule <baz>, and then matched correctly 05:56
infix:<~> is string concatenation 05:57
duckyd: Also, all (and I mean _all_) operators are specced as user-overridable. Also, you can define new ones.
tann eternaleye: builtin functions/methods as well? 05:59
eternaleye rakudo: sub infix:<cow>( Str $cow, Str $obj ) { say "$cow moos at $obj" }; 'Bessie' cow 'the barn';
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Bessie moos at the barn␤»
eternaleye tann: Yep
duckyd: There are also hyperoperators, which take regular operators and apply them to collections 06:00
rakudo: sub infix:<cow>( Str $cow, Str $obj ) { say "$cow moos at $obj" }; ('Bessie', 'Daisy', 'Shirley') >>cow<< ('the barn', 'Farmer Bill', 'a dog');
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Bessie moos at the barn␤Daisy moos at Farmer Bill␤Shirley moos at a dog␤» 06:01
eternaleye the 'wide end' goes towards a list
so >>op<< applies element one of each list together, and so on; >>op>> applies each element of the left list to the single element on the right 06:02
duckyd eternaleye: I've played a bit with hyperoperators, they're neat 06:11
moritz_ good morning 06:12
missingthepoint good morning moritz :)
tann rakudo: my $f = IO::FSNode.new("."); say $f ~~ :d; say $f ~~ :f; 06:13
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in invoke()␤in Main (/tmp/1nltbgizJz:2)␤»
tann i like to greet moritz with a «Null PMC access in Main» 06:14
moritz_ what a friendly welcome ;-) 06:16
tann parrots are always friendly creatures 06:17
moritz_ unless they bite you ;-)
ok, even then they don't mean to be unfriendly, it's just their way of playing 06:18
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duckyd rakudo: my $qux = "qux"; my $corge = "corge"; regex bar { $qux }; regex baz { $corge }; my $foo = "quxtastycorge"; say $foo.subst( rx/<bar>(.*?)<baz>/, { $<baz> ~ $0 ~ $<bar> } ); 06:19
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in get_string()␤in regex bar (/tmp/2DNPaGW0KM:1)␤called from regex PGE::Grammar::_block63 (/tmp/2DNPaGW0KM:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/2DNPaGW0KM:2)␤»
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duckyd scratches his head 06:20
moritz_ duckyd: interpolation of variables into regexes is not yet implemented 06:21
duckyd moritz_: well, one way or another I'm trying to do the equivalent of 06:22
$foo.subst(/$bar(.*)$baz/, $baz$1$bar);
moritz_ uhm, isn't that a no-op? 06:24
duckyd no, $bar and $baz get reversed
moritz_ oh, yuck ;-)
you can use eval to build a regex 06:25
duckyd rakudo: my $foo = "one two three"; regex bar { one }; regex baz { three }; say $foo.subst( rx/<bar>(.*?)<baz>/, { $<baz> ~ $0 ~ $<bar> } );
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«three two one␤»
duckyd moritz_: hrm. something like eval { regex bar { $bar } }; ?
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moritz_ rakudo: my $bar = "foo"; $bar = eval "rx { $bar }"; say "seefood" ~~ $bar 06:28
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«0␤»
moritz_ rakudo: my $bar = "foo"; $bar = eval "/ $bar /"; say "seefood" ~~ $bar
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«foo␤»
duckyd ah! 06:29
eternaleye duckyd: String eval is now the only eval, block eval (which caught exceptions) isn now try { } (with CATCH { } blocks _inside_ it, not after it) 06:31
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duckyd rakudo: my $one = "one"; my $three = "three"; my $foo = "one two three"; my $bar = eval "regex { $one }"; my $baz = eval "regex { $three }"; say $foo.subst( rx/<bar>(.*?)<baz>/, { $<baz> ~ $0 ~ $<bar> } ); 06:42
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Unable to find regex 'bar'␤in regex PGE::Grammar::_block91 (/tmp/YzkAZNsfDP:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/YzkAZNsfDP:2)␤»
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duckyd rakudo: my $one = "one"; my $three = "three"; my $foo = "one two three"; my $my_regex = eval "regex { $one(.*)$three }"; say $foo.subst( rx/<my_regex>/, { $<baz> ~ $0 ~ $<bar> } ); 06:44
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "(.*)$three"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3369)␤»
moritz_ duckyd: note that { ... } in double quoted strings is execute as a closure 06:46
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moritz_ rakudo: "foo { say 'hi' } " 06:46
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«hi␤»
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eternaleye duckyd: Also, matches nest. if <foo> is defined as <bar><baz>, you access baz through $<foo><baz> 06:48
duckyd rakudo: my $one = "one"; my $three = "three"; my $foo = "one two three"; my $bar = eval "/ $one /"; my $baz = eval "/ $three /"; say $foo.subst( rx/<bar>(.*?)<baz>/, { $<baz> ~ $0 ~ $<bar> } ); 06:52
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Unable to find regex 'bar'␤in regex PGE::Grammar::_block79 (/tmp/yIKXd97sTg:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/yIKXd97sTg:2)␤»
moritz_ if you don't declare a regex named 'bar' then it can't find one 06:54
duckyd what does my $bar = eval "/ $one /"; do?
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moritz_ rakudo: eval "regex bar \{ 'arg' \}"; say "bargain" ~~ /<bar>/ 06:55
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«arg␤»
moritz_ rakudo: my $one = 'one'; my $three = 'three'; eval "regex bar \{ $one \}; regex baz \{ $three \}; "; say 'onetwothree'.subst(/ <bar> (.*) <baz> /, { $<baz> ~ $0 ~ $<bar> }); 06:56
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«threetwoone␤»
moritz_ rakudo: my $one = 'one'; my $three = 'three'; eval "regex bar \{ $one \}; regex baz \{ $three \}; "; say 'onetwothree'.subst(/ <bar> (.*) <baz> /, { join ', ', $<baz>, $0, $<bar> }); 06:57
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«three, two, one␤»
duckyd ah
I have to define the regex by name inside of the eval?
moritz_ only if you want to use it by name later on 06:58
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Su-Shee good morning. :) 07:16
moritz_ oh hai Su-Shee
mberends \o
finanalyst good morning
just read all the comments on comments on p6l 07:17
seems like comments (like POD) and whitespace have several functions, associated but not a part of code 07:18
moritz_ Su-Shee: one step closer to world domination and home made truffles: PerlJam and I have commit access to the java2perl6 translator, committed some small fixes, and have an IRC channel with logs, bots etc ;-)
finanalyst will java2perl6 translate all java or just a subset 07:19
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Su-Shee moritz_: on sept 1st the new cholocate season starts :) 07:20
moritz_ finanalyst: just declarations 07:21
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Matt-W Good morning 07:21
duckyd thanks for all your help #perl6 :) 07:22
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finanalyst Su-Shee: "new" chocolate season. didnt know there were seasons. do you mean the actual coca plant harvest? 07:22
Matt-W finanalyst: the whole comments/Pod thing is really weird 07:23
Su-Shee finanalyst: in summer, no truffle-making food ist available in online shops due to heat.
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missingthepoint duckyd, thankyou for your questions. 07:31
hi Matt-W, Su-Shee :)
hi finanalyst 07:32
finanalyst missingthepoint: hi
Matt-W hi missingthepoint
finanalyst Su-Shee: where I live, truffles possible even in summer 07:33
how come 'online' shops suffer from heat?
:)
Su-Shee finanalyst: I should move there, I hate summer.
finanalyst: well there's the way from the shop to your house ;)
finanalyst probably hate winter more
Matt-W deliveries 07:34
I don't like summer very much
there are occasional days when it seems worthwhile
finanalyst when the sun shines?
Matt-W but when you're stuck at work in the middle of a relatively grubby city in the Midlands, it loses a lot of its charm
I prefer summer back home
Su-Shee well more or less _everything_ I like to do isn't very nice when it's hot. 07:35
Matt-W Definitely moving back there one day
Su-Shee: I find aikido much less fun when it's hot
Su-Shee Matt-W: exactly.
Matt-W After a while you don't notice the heat anymore 07:36
But you do notice the smell afterwards
Su-Shee :)
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mberends fascinating: re-mildew (after a complicated build process on ubuntu 9.04) passes stuff in its 'make test' :) 07:42
after a bit more experience I'll update www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....pendencies 07:45
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masak morning #perl6, you wonderful channel you. 08:39
moritz_ o/ masak
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masak moritz_: would you say writing tests has taught you a lot of the Perl 6 you know? 08:41
moritz_ masak: yes. Writing tests, reading the synopsis and hanging out here 08:42
masak: you should ask KyleHa++ too :-) 08:43
masak yes, I plan to. :)
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pmurias ruoso: hi 08:44
masak to me, learning happens when I pause when writing an application, and go "hm, this is Perl 6. is there a more idiomatic/nicer way to do this?"
moritz_ there are often constructs that scream for a better way 08:45
if you listen to it, that is :-)
however when writing tests I ususally try to focus on one thing to test, and keep the rest simple 08:46
masak indeed.
moritz_ so I don't write idiomatic Perl 6 code very often
masak that's an oddity with the tests.
they should be viewed from the perspective of feature constraints.
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moritz_ but when I do, I cram my code with too many idioms 08:46
masak :)
moritz_ making it look like golfed code far too often 08:47
masak during summer 2008, we often put in Perl 6 idioms, only to discover that Rakudo blew up.
that doesn't happen anymore, not nearly to the same degree anyway.
moritz_ confirmed. 08:48
masak but at that time, one had to think about how to write the code _less_ idiomatic, and closer to the constituent instructions.
moritz_ but you still use $str.subst(...) instead of $str ~~ s///
masak that is, less Perl, more assembly.
moritz_: yes, that's a lingering anti-idiom.
(.=subst, btw) :) 08:49
moritz_ right
frettled masak: that means you have quite a challenge in refactoring your code afterwards. 08:52
moritz_ that means that masak++ needs a good test suite
masak frettled: I wouldn't know about challenge. the projects I've been on have been quite ruthlessly refactoring things as soon as Rakudo has enabled that. 08:53
I think of it as code that constantly seeks a point of lowest potential energy. 08:54
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masak seen that way, refactoring is not challenging at all; it's just a matter of giving the code a little push. 08:54
moritz_ and if you don't let it do that, it builds up latent heat 08:55
and burns you when you touch it
moritz_ likes that analogy
frettled masak: :) 08:56
masak maybe -- I haven't experienced the heat bit :)
frettled moritz_: you may think that's cute today ... ;)
masak :P
frettled masak: that was one of the better running gags during YAPC :) 08:57
masak but I can say that having a personal relation to the bugs sure helps in remembering to refactor. it means I often go "oi, RT #xxx is fixed! now I can make piece Y of codebase Z nicer!"
frettled masak: that's quite true.
masak: being the perpetrator of said code helps a lot ;) 08:58
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masak moritz_: "you think that's cute today..." was apparently something that TheDamian told TimToady occasionally. he had it as one of the (language designer) error messages in his talk. 08:58
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masak frettled: oh, I don't do the shame bit very much, actually. I have the ultimate excuse: Rakudo is under construction. :) 08:59
frettled masak: nyar nyar nyar :D
masak I should collect more war stories, though. 09:00
the one I told about in the NPW talk is one of the more extreme.
moritz_ I'd love to have a switch that turns off all the Perl 5 deprecation warnings
frettled Yes, some day, these anecdotes may be interesting to someone.
moritz_ std: while (my $x = <foo> ) { } 09:01
p6eval std 27955: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤This appears to be Perl 5 code at /tmp/RlHY3tOZ0T line 1:␤------> while (my $x = <foo>⏏ ) { }␤FAILED 00:02 36m␤»
moritz_ std: <STDIN>
p6eval std 27955: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Obsolete use of <STDIN>; in Perl 6 please use $*IN.lines instead at /tmp/HF0gBk9apz line 1:␤------> <⏏STDIN>␤FAILED 00:02 36m␤»
Matt-W they're not very helpful to people who don't know Perl 5
masak nowadays, you youngsters can do '$file.IO ~~ :f'. we had to do 'my $exists = 0; try { open $file, :r; $exists = 1 };'
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masak Matt-W: why would people who don't know Perl 5 write <STDIN>? 09:02
moritz_ Matt-W: aye. If there's a new generation of Perl 6 programmers they will ask "why can't I make a list quote that's made only of STDIN? what kind of artificial restriction is that?"
masak: why wouldn't they? it's a perfectly valid list quote construct
or at least it looks like one 09:03
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frettled std: my @x = <STDIN>; 09:05
p6eval std 27955: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Obsolete use of <STDIN>; in Perl 6 please use $*IN.lines instead at /tmp/1UyWfjChYA line 1:␤------> my @x = <⏏STDIN>;␤FAILED 00:02 37m␤»
frettled std: my @x = <STDIN STDOUT>; 09:06
p6eval std 27955: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 38m␤»
frettled Nanny! The standard is mocking me!
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masak fwiw, I don't think disallowing <STDIN> is ever going to bite anyone so innocent as not to know about Perl 5. 09:14
moritz_ std: <>
p6eval std 27955: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Obsolete use of <>; in Perl 6 please use lines() or () instead at /tmp/WLKSv6UL8A line 1:␤------> <⏏>␤FAILED 00:02 36m␤»
moritz_ masak: what about this one?
masak moritz_: that one has slightly more of a case going for it, yes. 09:15
moritz_: however, is it only in void context?
moritz_ std: my @a = <>; 09:16
p6eval std 27955: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Obsolete use of <>; in Perl 6 please use lines() or () instead at /tmp/XuxVO5OHxb line 1:␤------> my @a = <⏏>;␤FAILED 00:02 37m␤»
moritz_ masak: no
masak ah.
I feel it should be a warning, not a parse error.
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Matt-W there are problems when it stops you doing things which are actually valid Perl 6 09:19
moritz_ which is why I'd like to have a switch to turn it off 09:20
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moritz_ but that can wait for post-6.0 09:20
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pmurias moritz_: the hardest part to come up with seems the name for the switch 09:25
moritz_ 'no legacy;' 09:26
masak likes that
'no looking-back;'
pugs_svn r27956 | jani++ | Added myself to AUTHORS 09:27
frettled == jani 09:28
Matt-W no regrets;
frettled With that massive contribution to the Perl community, I'll need a brief break. ;)
Matt-W as long as you spend it all thinking about embedded comment syntax and Pod directives 09:29
It strikes me that part of the problem with Rakudo Star is that while we're all excited about an evolving language, the ignorant masses want a 'finished product' and can't understand why such things don't exist in the happy world. 09:30
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masak after writing the embedded-comments email to p6l, I felt a slight twinge of concern that my last paragraph might actually discourage people entirely from responding. 09:32
my concern was unwarranted.
frettled masak: oh?
Matt-W :)
frettled I see that there's a mailing list I should join. 09:33
Matt-W perl6-language
masak and yes, you should definitely join.
Matt-W I'm trying to stay out of the comments one
instead diving into the one about Pod
and I didn't once say that it's not called POD anymore
I think I was very restrained
masak :) 09:34
Matt-W Maybe I'll save that for my response to someone else's response to my response
pmurias perl6: my $foo is context = 1;sub foo {my $foo;say $*foo};foo(); 09:35
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'trait_mod:is'␤in Main (/tmp/DH4hzlveL1:2)␤»
..elf 27956, pugs: OUTPUT«␤»
pmurias perl6: my $foo is context = 1;sub foo {my $foo = 2;say $*foo};foo();
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'trait_mod:is'␤in Main (/tmp/EgXRKHgFAu:2)␤»
..elf 27956, pugs: OUTPUT«␤»
masak why isn't mildew in the list of implementations run when 'perl6: ' is issued?
Matt-W it doesn't seem to know what to do with 'is context'
pmurias masak: mildew doesn't support enough stuff yet 09:36
masak pmurias: neither do the others. :P
pmurias that's true 09:37
moritz_ secondly mildew is rather slow
and third of all its build system has been whacky in the past, leading to errors quite often 09:38
pmurias ruoso: what should $foo is context desugar to? 09:41
Matt-W hah 09:43
Rakudo White Bikeshed
One day we have to have Rakudo "Now with s///"
masak :D
09:44 donaldh left
masak is looking forward to Rakudo Macros 09:44
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Matt-W oooh yes 09:44
that'll be fun
every control structure you ever wanted but couldn't persuade TimToady about will be within your grasp 09:45
masak I know!
Matt-W no more life without random-if
masak people won't _have_ to bikeshed anymore. it'll be a brave new world.
Matt-W :) 09:46
frettled I'm scared now.
Matt-W Just sit back and enjoy it 09:48
you can always use sanity;
masak
.oO( who would want to use that? :P )
 09:49
Matt-W masak: I don't know, but it might be reassuring for some people :D
corporate types 09:50
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masak use suit-and-tie; 09:50
Matt-W run :screaming
masak oh, oh, and here's another complaint I have: I'm apparently totally incompetent when it comes to telling pairs and named arguments apart. 09:51
it bites me all the time, often silently or with action-at-a-distance.
and because I'm inept at telling them apart, there's obviously something wrong with the language. :P 09:52
just FYI.
frettled masak: what is it about them that makes it hard to tell them apart?
masak here's an example of what's surprising:
rakudo: my $a = :foo<bar>; say $a 09:53
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«foo bar␤»
masak rakudo: say :foo<bar>
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«␤»
masak o_O
frettled eh uh. yes.
Matt-W yes
remembering all the rules is a bit sticky
say (:foo<bar>)
rakudo: say (:foo<bar>) 09:54
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«foo bar␤»
Matt-W I tend to say to myself 'to pass a pair, put it in brackets'
but that's only in argument lists
dakkar rakudo: say(:foo<bar>)
masak good idea, I'll try that.
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«␤»
frettled So without the parentheses, it's a named argument. hmm.
Matt-W frettled: correct
it is something that's likely to catch people out
I don't know if it's something that's worth trying to find a solution for though 09:55
then there's the => syntax for them
frettled Okay, I agree that the syntax is confusing here, especially considering that quite a bit of work has been put into reducing the amount of syntax surprises elsewhere.
dakkar no, in an argument list, it's a named argument; in an expression it's a pair
Matt-W rakudo: say foo => bar;
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub bar␤»
Matt-W aaah
hah
dakkar rakudo: say foo => 'bar'
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«␤»
Matt-W wake up matt
rakudo: say "foo" => 'bar' 09:56
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«foo bar␤»
dakkar argh!
Matt-W that's the one that *really* surprises me
dakkar i'm pretty sure this is a bug
Matt-W even though it makes sense in that named arguments have to be identifiers, so will always autoquote
no that's not a bug, it's in the spec
dakkar really?
Matt-W yup
dakkar it's more confusing than I expected, then
Matt-W there's no point making a named argument out of => with a quoted lhs, because it might not be valid
because a name argument's name can't be "hello there" 09:57
frettled aha
Matt-W because identifiers can't have spaces in them
frettled I forget: can an identifier have NBSP?
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Matt-W the rules are fairly logical, but they're going to surprise a lot of people 09:57
dakkar so a pair in argument list is intepreted as a named argument, unless the key is explicitly quoted?
Matt-W frettled: nbsp counts as whitespace, so no
frettled Matt-W: thank goodness :D 09:58
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frettled Hmm. Lunch. 09:58
Matt-W dakkar: yes, or the pair is enclosed in its own set of parens
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Matt-W rakudo: say (foo => "bar"); say (:foo<bar>); say "foo" => "bar"; 09:58
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«foo bar␤foo bar␤foo bar␤»
Matt-W I don't recommend the parens thing with subs called without parens though... that whitespace is too missable given how many other languages would interpret the ( as opening the argument list 09:59
dakkar true 10:00
Matt-W basically the problem is really with passing pairs in as arguments 10:03
try to avoid it :)
dakkar rakudo: my $a=:foo<bar>;say |$a 10:10
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«elements() not implemented in class 'Perl6Pair'␤in Main (/tmp/qDqmltw6Kv:2)␤»
dakkar rakudo: my %a=:foo<bar>;say |%a 10:11
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«␤»
dakkar should the first one work?
timbunce where can I find docs on the rakudo perl6 --trace flags? docs/running.pod isn't very enlightening 10:19
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timbunce or, failing any docs, how can I see what file is being parsed at the time there's an error? 10:20
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missingthepoint timbunce: i'm afraid it's "failing any docs" ATM... 10:29
ruoso pmurias, it depends... is the "is context" applied to the container or to the lexical scope itself/ 10:36
?
pmurias ruoso: to the variable 10:41
like $foo is context
and what should $*foo desugar to?
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mzedeler rakudo: say foo => "bar"; say(foo => "bar"); 10:44
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«␤␤» 10:45
mzedeler Eh?
pmurias ruoso: but on the desugared layer i would guess that it should be applied to the container
* lexical scop 10:46
e
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mzedeler rakudo: say (foo => "bar1"); say(foo => "bar2"); 10:47
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«foo bar1␤␤»
mzedeler Now I learned something too. 10:49
dakkar eh, the whitespace "trap" 10:51
an open parenthesis immediately after a name is intepreted as a function call 10:52
if there's whitespace in the middle, it's the regular grouping parenthesis of expressions
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mzedeler Yes. Thats what I realized now. 10:52
dakkar s/function call/start of an argument list/
mzedeler ...and I guess the "foo" in say(foo => .. ) just becomes a named parameter not recognized by say. 10:53
dakkar precisely
mzedeler Maybe if say could complain about it, when receiving unknown named parameters. 10:55
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mzedeler rakudo: say +1; say 1; say (+1); 11:00
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«1␤1␤1␤»
mzedeler Of course. Didn't manage to catch it off guard.
:-)
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guest_007 hi, i am curious why perl6 use that obscure @array.elems instead of @array.size ? 11:08
or @a.length or @a.count 11:10
that's really strange, because i feel that "elements" err "elems" should return an array of elements 11:11
if anyone care :)
looking specifications i feel that perl6 is going to become obscure as php with thousands of hard-to-remember functions 11:12
Matt-W it's less obscure
what does 'size' mean? 11:13
'elems' unambiguously means the elements
size could be... how many bytes to store them
guest_007 count? 11:14
frettled Matt-W: but 'length' wouldn't be too bad.
carlin elems is a bit obscure 11:15
dakkar might it be related to the fact that there is no "length" for strings? 11:16
(for strings, "length" is so ill-defined to be completely useless)
frettled dakkar: perhaps, I haven't read the apocalypse or exegesis for that. 11:17
guest_007 as Perl don't operate with bytes as C so size does not matter the real size like type_size * count 11:18
dakkar guest_007: I *think* the idea is that people do operate at that level, some times 11:19
frettled hmm, the exegesis for operators uses 'length' for the number of elements in an array/list.
dakkar but I'm no expert
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dakkar I see it this way: "some string".chars gives you the number of characters; "some string".bytes gives you the number of bytes, <some list>.elems gives you the number of elements 11:20
(and yes, it took me a while to figure out that .elems returns an integer instead of a list)
guest_007 the most funny thing that i've found at this moment, that foreach shifted to for and for shifted to loop :) the most obscure thing that can be imagined :) when people doing for($i=0;$i<x;$i++) for > 20 years, we rename it to loop :))) 11:21
frettled Not only does it give you the number of elements, but in a sparse list, it should give you the actual number of elements present.
guest_007: 􏿽xABforeach􏿽xBB was deprecated in Perl 5.
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guest_007 dunno. i use for for lists and loops 11:21
frettled That is, using 􏿽xABforeach􏿽xBB was recommended _against_.
guest_007 i really don't care about foreach 11:22
dakkar guest_007: the idea is that people should just stop doing C-style loops when they can avoid it
frettled guest_007: Try removing the 􏿽xABeach􏿽xBB part while coding in Perl 5 and observe the huge changes :)
guest_007 frettled: i use for (@a) or for (1..100)
dakkar (and having the two completely different syntaxes introduced by different keywords simplifies the parser and helps extensibility) 11:23
oh, and loop { ... } is an infinite loop
rakudo: my $i=0; loop { say $i; last if $i++ > 3 }
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«0␤1␤2␤3␤4␤»
guest_007 while($condition) was perfect 11:24
pmurias guest_007: no, while $condition is better
Matt-W frettled: the exegesis is out of date
frettled: synopsis is the only thing that's maintained usually
dakkar guest_007: what's "while" got to do with "for"? 11:25
(nobody killed "while")
frettled Matt-W: I know, but the exegesis shows some of the rationale behind the synopsis.
Matt-W: just like the exegesis is an attempt at explaining the apocalypse :) 11:26
guest_007 i see- "can also"
Matt-W yes, but it's out of date, so the fact that it mentions .length (which was indeed what was correct at one point) isn't really relevant
guest_007 so loop is "throw -away" function like "goto" 11:27
dakkar guest_007: uh??
Matt-W no, loop is a control structure
guest_007 sure, control structure
frettled Matt-W: I think we're talking past eachother :)
Matt-W it's the most general type of loop
pmurias guest_007: length is not used anywhere in perl 6 as it does not specify the unit 11:28
Matt-W frettled: quite possibly
Matt-W has to go for a bit &
frettled . o O ( one could specify a length role? ) ;)
guest_007 personally i say "array size" or "array elements count" 11:29
frettled guest_007: what would you call the size of a sparse array ranging from 0 to 100, where 27 positions are populated? 11:30
guest_007 count i think 11:31
frettled I was looking for a number, 100 or 27? 11:32
In the case of 􏿽xABarray size􏿽xBB
moritz_ or 101?
frettled moritz_: hush :D
moritz_: (at first, I wrote 􏿽xAB1 to 100􏿽xBB, then conflated it with 􏿽xAB0 to 99􏿽xBB, but forgot to replace the 􏿽xAB100􏿽xBB, haha) 11:33
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guest_007 @a.number 11:34
lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
frettled guest_007: or, to put it in other words: If an array is specified as having elements ranging from 0 to 99, but only 27 positions are populated, is the "array size" 27 or 100? 11:35
guest_007 what is the element count? 27 11:36
i don't propose anything particular, i am trying to find something that fit better 11:37
pmurias but the general convention is that you get the size of something by specifing the unit
guest_007 yes, size is more like @a.end + 1 if @a.start == 0;
frettled 27 out of the 100 positions are populated. In your words, that may be the "array size", "array elements count", or something else. I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
guest_007 i think that "count" fit better 11:38
pmurias guest_007: i don't really matter
even if it would be slightly better it would be inconsistent with the getting the size of the string 11:39
frettled mm
guest_007 character count, element count
pmurias byte count, graphem count 11:40
guest_007 so count is more universal?
pmurias it's ambiguous 11:42
carlin PHP uses count(), Python uses len(), we'll use elems, can't make everyone happy
pmurias characters aren't as clearly defined when you go from ASCII to unicode 11:43
guest_007 $str.elems ?
pmurias is an error
moritz_ carlin: one can always use +@array to avoid bikeshedding :-)
pmurias but $array.chars works 11:44
moritz_ rakudo: say "foo".elems # 1?
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«1␤»
pmurias argh $array.graphems
moritz_ .graphs actually
pmurias yes... :/
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guest_007 404: feather.perl6.nl/syn/Perl6%3A%3AFAQ...pture.html 11:48
frettled rakudo: my @arr = <foo bar baz>; say +@arr; 11:49
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«3␤»
frettled ...which is like saying $#arr+1 in P5 11:50
rakudo: my @arr[10]; @arr[1] = "foo"; @arr[8] = "bar"; say +@arr;
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "[10]; @arr"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3369)␤»
guest_007 +@arr is not equal to $#arr
frettled hmm, I thought that would be valid 11:51
guest_007 $#arr is @a.end
frettled guest_007: I didn't say it was equal :)
moritz_ frettled: sized arrays are not yet implemented in Perl 6
guest_007 after eight years? O_O
frettled moritz_: aha! 11:52
moritz_ rakudo isn't 8 years old.
masak right. it's more like two years old or something. 11:54
looking at what's happened in that time, the growth of features has been amazing. 11:55
frettled maybe pugs supports them?
masak I'm not so sure it does.
moritz_ pugs: my @a[10]; @a[5] = 5; say @a 11:56
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«5␤»
moritz_ pugs: my @a[10]; @a[5] = 5; say @a.perl
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«\(undef, undef, undef, undef, undef, 5)␤»
moritz_ pugs: my @a[10]; @a[12] = 5; say @a.perl
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«\(undef, undef, undef, undef, undef, undef, undef, undef, undef, undef, undef, undef, 5)␤»
moritz_ it just ignores the count
guest_007 should it? 11:57
moritz_ no
frettled pugs: my @arr[10]; @arr[1] = "foo"; @arr[8] = "bar"; say +@arr;
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«9␤»
frettled So with pugs, +@arr == .end, then. 11:58
dakkar uh… no 12:00
.end is the last index
frettled hmm, ah, right, I had arr[8]
pugs: my @arr[10]; @arr[1] = "foo"; @arr[6] = "bar"; say +@arr;
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«7␤»
frettled Better put: pugs adds undef elements to the array until the last defined element
That's an interesting case of autovivification, btw. 12:05
dakkar i'm not sure if they're really there, or just a limitation of the .perl form
frettled shouldnt +@arr be equivalent to @arr.elems? 12:06
dakkar I think so
or maybe not…
masak yes, it should.
unless it's multidimensional, maybe. 12:07
dakkar even in the case of non-existing elements in the middle of the array?
masak I don't really know what happens then. but I think .shape is for multi-dim things.
dakkar: yes, even then.
dakkar rakudo: my @a;@a[10]=';say +@a;say @a.elems 12:08
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "=';say +@a"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3369)␤»
dakkar rakudo: my @a;@a[10]=1;say +@a;say @a.elems
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«11␤11␤»
dakkar 11, or 1?
masak 11.
guest_007 lol
dakkar all right. is there no pre-defined way to get 1? 12:09
masak dakkar: I think you'll find S09 enlightening.
frettled rakudo: my @a;@a[4]=1;say ~@a;
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤ 1␤»
dakkar re-reads S09
frettled masak: or confusing :D
masak dakkar: +(grep { defined $_ }, @a)
dakkar masak: not "defined", "existing"
(see the "delete" method)
masak isn't that for hashes? 12:10
dakkar also arrays (even in Perl 5)
masak ok.
masak did not know that
guest_007 rakudo: my @a; @a[1_000_000]=1; say "aah:" _ +@a;
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "_ +@a;"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3369)␤»
guest_007 rakudo: my @a; @a[1_000_000]=1; say +@a;
moritz_ delete on arrays is mostly borken in Perl 5
dakkar guest_007: ~ instead of _
p6eval rakudo 11a293: ( no output )
masak guest_007: _ is ~ nowadays.
moritz_ when was it ever _ ? 12:11
masak moritz_: before your time :)
moritz_ rakudo: my @a; @a[1000]=1; say +@a;
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«1001␤»
guest_007 you mean the split char?
rakudo: my @a; @a[1000000]=1; say +@a;
dakkar guest_007: no, the concatenation operator
p6eval rakudo 11a293: ( no output )
moritz_ strong concatenation is ~
*string
masak :)
guest_007 in p5 the 1_000_000 == 1000000 - just the visual representation, because 10000000 is not readable 12:12
cono in perl6 we have strong concatenation :D
j/k
moritz_ rakudo: say 1_0 == 10
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«1␤»
moritz_ guest_007: still works in Perl 6
guest_007 rakudo: my @a; @a[1_000_000]=1; say +@a;
moritz_ it was the second _ that upset rakudo
p6eval rakudo 11a293: ( no output )
guest_007 rakudo: my @a; @a[1_000]=1; say +@a; 12:13
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«1001␤»
guest_007 rakudo: my @a; @a[1_0_00]=1; say +@a;
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«1001␤»
guest_007 rakudo don't want to create large array ))
rakudo: say 1_2_3; 12:14
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«123␤»
cono i guess p6eval just have limit
guest_007 fine
12:14 Su-Shee left
cono limits.conf or something 12:14
moritz_ BSD::ResourceLimits actually
cono what about forks? 12:15
BSD::ResourceLimits though?
moritz_ the code is all in the pugs repo, feel free to find out :-)
cono moritz_: p6eval's ? 12:16
moritz_ cono: yes
cono k,ty
moritz_ in misc/evalbot/
cono ty, ty
12:16 alester joined 12:36 alester left
moritz_ rakudo: constant Int $x = 4; say $x 12:48
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«4␤»
moritz_ rakudo: constant Int $x = 4; say ++$x
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to readonly variable.␤in Main (/tmp/M2A8dFmLPZ:2)␤»
moritz_ rakudo: module Foo { constant Int $x = 4; }; say $Foo::x 12:49
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤␤»
moritz_ rakudo: module Foo { constant Int x = 4; }; say Foo::x
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in type()␤in Main (/tmp/g8yK3pIsBj:2)␤»
Matt-W BUG! 12:50
masak oh hai 12:51
guest_007 rakudo: my $file = open('/etc/passwd') err die "Can't read file: $!";
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "err die \"C"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3369)␤»
masak Matt-W: : but that one's submitted already.
guest_007 rakudo: my $file = open('/etc/passwd') or die "Can't read file: $!";
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«operation not permitted in safe mode␤in Main (lib/Safe.pm:25)␤»
guest_007 ;) 12:52
Matt-W masak: by you?
12:52 ruoso joined
masak Matt-W: think so. 12:52
frettled masak: how many percent of the submitted bugs are yours? :)
masak submitting duplicate bug requests is so yesterday. 12:53
frettled: a guess would be somewhere over 50%.
frettled masak: I'm not surprised.
masak frettled: I actually pulled down the data the other day to find out. hold on.
12:53 szabgab left
frettled you lovely nerd you :) 12:54
masak hm, 36.82%, it seems. 12:55
that can't be right. :P
frettled No, there must be a mistake somewhere, perhaps you accidentally submitted some bugs with a different e-mail address? :D
masak no, don't think so. 12:56
but my analysis tool (grep) might be missing something.
I now get 38.11%, hardly an improvement.
masak mumbles "need to submit more bugs" 12:57
cono destroyer :D
Matt-W I think there must be a lot of old ones from other people before masak really got involved
moritz_ Matt-W: not so very many 13:00
masak actually, no.
Matt-W hopefully though most of them would have been closed a long time ago
frettled masak: what's the ratio before and after NPW?
masak frettled: I think about the same. 13:01
I've made one graph so far. we've been fairly constant in bug report frequency since beginning of last summer.
moritz_ rakudo: class A::B { }; sub foo (--> A::B ) { }; say "alive" 13:02
masak that's sort of the clear breakpoint between two phases in bug reports.
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«alive␤»
frettled masak: aha
masak: as in the period between when it was 20/80 and now? 13:03
masak 20/80 in what sense? 13:05
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frettled masak: in your talk at YAPC, you mentioned something about rakudo being at a 20/80 stage a year ago (perhaps it was useful/cool, I've forgotten) 13:13
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masak frettled: ah, you're mixing up two things. the 80/20 in my talk was between scripty/appy things (or, similarly, whipuptitude/manipulexity). the 80/20 of Rakudo is from this post: use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39322 (also features in pmichaud++'s Hacking Rakudo talk) 13:18
frettled Of course, you're expected to recall such details from the mere mention of 􏿽xAB20/80􏿽xBB without any useful context. ;) 13:19
masak: ah. yes, but I thought that the rate of bug reports might be correlated to those numbers.
masak hm, no. not directly anyway.
I've been steadily submitting an average of one bug ticket a day since June 2008. 13:20
Rakudo seems to get better, but the number of discovered bugs doesn't seem to be slacking off.
moritz_ there's the well-known 20/80 rule (in variations)
that it takes you 20% of the time to code the first 80% of your application 13:21
or so
PerlJam wonders what relation the first and second 90% has to the 20/80 rule :) 13:22
moritz_ masak: as rakudo grows it also offers more surface to attack 13:24
masak moritz_: aye. another feeling I have is that I'm mostly discovering bugs from yet-untested features. 13:26
actually, that's usually a good tip for actively looking for bugs. 13:27
guest_007 parrot: my $a = 1; {my $a = 2;}; say $a; 13:32
rakudo: my $a = 1; {my $a = 2;}; say $a;
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«1␤»
guest_007 mistakae:)
rakudo: {my $a = 2;}; say $a; 13:33
p6eval rakudo 11a293: OUTPUT«Symbol '$a' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/RT6CqPoljn:2)␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3369)␤»
moritz_ the bots don't forgive - they just ignore :-)
frettled moritz_: the 20/80 - 80/20 rule is applied to almost every area where some sort of effort or skill is involved :)
moritz_ it seems the 80/80 rule is, too
for the first 20% you need 80% of the time, and for the next 80% you need again 80% of the time :-) 13:34
frettled haha
guest_007 дщд 13:36
lol
Matt-W moritz_: yes that's not uncommon 13:43
cono guest_007: дщд ;) 13:44
guest_007: ru/ua ?
guest_007 ак 13:45
bg
cono guest_007: are you was at YAPC? 13:46
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takadonet morning all 13:52
masak takadonet: o/
takadonet how are you doing masak?
masak takadonet: I am extremely well, thank you. I hope you are, too. :) 13:55
14:03 molaf left
masak I'm writing a longish use.perl post called "Perl 6 is my MMORPG". gist.github.com/165851 -- I'd like some feedback/criticism on it before I post. especially the RPG parts, where I'm admittedly very weak, since my experience is limited to thousands of hours of playing Angband. 14:05
14:05 __ash__ joined
masak so, comments welcome. I'll post it in an hour or so. 14:05
frettled Angband is to role-playing games what a hammer and chisel is to a computer. ;) 14:07
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masak frettled: I'm not sure either of me or Angband deserved that. :P 14:09
frettled masak: hee-hee.
But it's rather true; Angband is a single player game, with extremely little role playing per se.
masak frettled: if what you mean is that Angband is simplistic, I think you haven't played it enough. 14:10
mkelly32 hi. i stopped in here a few weeks ago asking about where to send smoke test reports. is there anywhere that would be useful to send those right now? or, if i just throw them up somewhere web-accessible, would anyone be interested in looking at them?
frettled masak: no.
14:10 jferrero left
masak mkelly32: smoke-reports of what? Pugs? 14:10
PerlJam masak++ nice article.
masak PerlJam: thanks. :) any particular comments?
frettled masak: but you don't do role-playing, do you? Do you enter as a warrior, and imagine your armour, the great new stuff, and shout 􏿽xABhave at you, fiend!􏿽xBB when striking with your sword? Do you cry or moan when you're hurt? and so on. 14:11
PerlJam masak: nothing stood out as needing change or improvement or clarification to me.
mkelly32 masak: rakudo running the spec tests
masak frettled: oh, is _that_ role-playing. I tend to call that "overacting". :P
PerlJam masak: so the only comment I have is "great job!" :)
masak PerlJam: ok. gotcha. :)
dakkar masak: "LFA"? 14:12
frettled masak: role playing is to _play_ a _role_, a part, a character in a setting, usually with other people :) In MMORPG, you'll find these separated between the hack'n'slash types, the 􏿽xABreal men􏿽xBB, the loons and the 􏿽xABreal roleplayers􏿽xBB.
masak mkelly32: either a smoke upload somewhere, or a summary of what failed for you here on-channel would be good.
dakkar: ok, I looked that one up. "Looking For Adventure".
frettled masak: but it's about experiencing the game. :) 14:13
masak dakkar: I thought it might give a sense of genuineness to someone. :)
dakkar ow. couldn't find it (google, wikipedia, acronymfinder)
[particle] has posted a reply to correct the inaccuracies and miscategorizations in news.softpedia.com/news/Perl-6-Comi...819.shtml, which awaits moderator approval
masak [particle]++
moritz_ obra++ # "Rakudo White Bikeshed" 14:14
frettled Anyhow, the analogy between Perl 6 and MMORPG (or possibly just a traditional over-the-table RPG, like D&D) is cute, it may work, but I'd skip the references to Eve Online, which is a science fiction setting -- your examples are from a fantasy setting, and that jars abit.
masak nonsense! the bikeshed should be pink!
PerlJam masak: I don't see which one of your character roles would best fit myself, but maybe it's a not seeing the forest for the trees kind of thing. :-)
[particle] (google alerts)++
masak frettled: so I should cut the first part? I can do that. 14:15
frettled masak: another way to look at it is that the Perl 6 community is more like a MUD, where the players actually contribute not only by playing (using the game), but also by building and changing the game (coding)
PerlJam frettled: I take it you're a gamer geek? :)
frettled PerlJam: I've been playing role-playing games on and off since 1991, so, possibly yes.
14:15 payload left
cono lineage2 more than 5 years ;( 14:16
PerlJam That first part seems fine to me as an introduction into the material, especially if that's what really happened :)
frettled But I quit playing computer games five or six years ago, and I never joined any MMORPG setting, although plenty of friends have.
PerlJam: that's a good point, yes.
frettled also learned object-oriented programming by programming in LPC on Viking MUD. 14:17
...which is kind of weird, considering that my _theoretical_ background is from studying computer science/informatics at a university at the same time.
go figure :)
masak ok, keeping the first part.
gist.github won't let me edit the gist anyway, it seems. :/ 14:18
frettled masak: oh, and I might have swapped the 􏿽xABmage􏿽xBB and 􏿽xABpriest􏿽xBB descriptions, BTW. 14:19
compiler implementation and deep language stuff is like magic, you know ;)
Now all you lack is descriptions for paladins, rogues and rangers ;) 14:20
(And in case it wasn't clear - I wouldn't bother spending time commenting on this if there wasn't merit to the thing!)
masak frettled: good idea, switching mage and priest. 14:21
it's exactly this kind if feedback I need. :)
frettled: is there a priest equivalent of 'mana'? 14:22
frettled masak: favour from the gods!
masak thanks.
that fits in very well.
frettled or 􏿽xABfavor􏿽xBB if you prefer American English.
moritz_ it's "karma points" in other RPGs 14:23
frettled masak: you're very welcome.
moritz_: I don't think I've played those other RPGs, or maybe I've just forgotten that one :)
masak I tend to want to write in Commonwealth English.
moritz_ frettled: "The Dark Eye" 14:25
frettled In D&D, the most-played system, you have something else. I think Mage: the Ascension uses something peculiar. Ars Magica doesn't use spell points, either.
moritz_ very popular in Germany
frettled moritz_: Never even heard of it.
Ah, it first appeared in English in late 2003. 14:26
Apparently the most popular one in Germany. 14:27
moritz_ right
frettled See all the cool things you can learn by being interested in Perl 6?
masak here's the post again, with "mage" and "priest" reversed: gist.github.com/165861
I hope I got all the substitutions right. 14:28
finanalyst how about adding TheProphet instead of a special Healer?
mkelly32 masak: test.pioto.org/rakudo/smoke/
finanalyst after all He wrote the appocalypses
masak finanalyst: no, I sincerely believe that it's not a singleton class.
frettled masak: wisdom would also be useful to a 􏿽xABpriest􏿽xBB
mkelly32 aether is an exherbo linux x86_64 box. domusporta is an i386 freebsd 7 box.
finanalyst true Healer is not singleton, but Prophet could be 14:29
frettled masak: It looks good enough that you'll get all sorts of irrelevant feedback now. :D
masak frettled: yes, useful, but not strictly necessary.
finanalyst And Trolls!
frettled masak: as in 􏿽xAByou may think it's cute now􏿽xBB? ;)
masak frettled: indeed. :) posting.
frettled: heh. :)
moritz_ masak: there's another good reason why warriors need karma... ;-) 14:32
masak: they have to convince the implementors to actually fix their blocker bugs
dalek kudo: 8d7fc7d | moritz++ | docs/ChangeLog:
[docs] updated ChangeLog. Corrections welcome
 14:33
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masak moritz_: I find that to be not that hard at all, actually. 14:33
well, there's #58392, of course... :)
the mythical ticket.
moritz_ so mythical that you still remember its number? ;-) 14:34
masak in my sleep. 14:35
PerlJam moritz_: did :local and such get added just before the 2009-07 release?
moritz_ PerlJam: not sure 14:37
masak frettled: another disadvantege of naming the class 'TheProphet': it actually shadows the significant role played by the community itself nowadays.
there, posted. use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39445 14:42
thanks, y'all, for your feedback.
frettled masak: yes, quite 14:43
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frettled Back to my proposed change to S09, here's a diff -- is there anything else/anywhere else I should write this? I was thinking about putting it under the header for autosorted, but it didn't seem right: gist.github.com/165868 14:45
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PerlJam frettled: what is that "except for successive calls" clause all about? Each call should result in the same (arbitrary) order barring any insertions or deletions in the mean time? 14:47
frettled Apparently, I don't have a gist user even if I have a github user. Hmm. What do I do to get there, I wonder ...
PerlJam: See S32 :)
PerlJam S32 isn't exactly small :) 14:48
frettled PerlJam: but yes, that's the meaning I glean from it.
masak frettled: I found the reference in S32. I do, however, think that it's better to re-state what it says than to refer to S32.
frettled Or there could be other changes than insertions and deletions that 􏿽xABchange􏿽xBB the hash.
masak frettled: apart from that, it looks good.
finanalyst masak: i looked at #58392 on RT and it was resolved. Why did you call it 'mythical'? 14:49
frettled Hmm. Perhaps it should be the same for _any_ iterator, I mean, it shouldn't be iterator specific, should it? 14:50
masak finanalyst: in a way, you had to be there.
finanalyst: it's one of those "in my time, we didn't even have proper lexical pads, and we were happy" things. 14:51
finanalyst masak: ok. :)
nostalgia already!
have to go.
14:51 finanalyst left
masak oh, there was reason to be nostalgic way before #58392. :) 14:52
cosimo hey guys, is there a template I can take as "well-written" perl6 class? like with documentation and perl6 best practices? 14:53
masak cosimo: yes.
cosimo ok
masak oh, you'd like examples? :)
I've always like how Druid turned out. 14:54
that said, I plan to re-write the Pod comments there in some other way that better reflects my ideal of how to use Pod.
but the code is very idiomatic, I'd say. I'm proud of it.
it even uses a Listener Pattern! 14:55
mzedeler But that .+ invocation you showed me could be replaced.... 14:56
s/could/should/
cosimo it sounds awe^Wgrand, but unfortunately I know nothing about it
this one? github.com/masak/druid/tree/master
masak cosimo: aye.
frettled Is the text better now? Comprehensible enough? gist.github.com/165868 14:57
masak mzedeler: sorry, I have a bad memory; which .+ invocation?
cosimo masak: thanks 14:58
masak here's where I first blogged about Druid: use.perl.org/~masak/journal/37885 14:59
mzedeler I am not sure if it was .* or .+, but the intention was to make an abstract parent class do proper initialization, except it seemed that it was the responsibility of the code outside the class to have the parent class called. 15:00
moritz_ frettled: s/', and may be//
15:00 zamolxes left
moritz_ frettled: s/', and may be'// I meant ;-) 15:00
masak mzedeler: ok, then it was the BUILD one.
frettled masak: ah, that's the one that had the LEGO implementation magically appearing on the table in my livingroom during NPW? :D
masak mzedeler: but the nice thing is that that one already is implicit. it's BUILDALL that does a .* on all the BUILD submethods. 15:01
frettled: yep, that's the one. :)
frettled moritz_: well, it doesn't have to be arbitrary?
mzedeler Can I find it somewhere here? github.com/masak/druid/tree/b2f6c89.../lib/Druid
Matt-W appears to be a Priest/Warrior/Mage multiclass build
moritz_ frettled: it *is* arbitrary. Sorted (or insertion order) is also a form of being arbitrary
mzedeler :-) 15:02
frettled moritz_: ah, I meant to suggest that it may be arbitrary between implementations, not arbitrary within an implementation.
moritz_: perhaps something like this, then: 􏿽xABimplementation dependent and arbitrary, but should be consistent within an implementation􏿽xBB? 15:03
moritz_ anyway, either version is fine to commit
frettled: no need for that
masak mzedeler: well, github.com/masak/druid/blob/b2f6c89...ew/Text.pm on line 74. and github.com/masak/druid/blob/b2f6c89...id/View.pm on line 14.
frettled moritz_: okay, I'll change it to 􏿽xABdependent and arbitrary􏿽xBB then.
mzedeler I also found it. Still cant see why nextsame or nextwith aren't sufficient. Honestly, I consider any use of .* and .+ harmful. 15:04
moritz_ for example in perl 5 perl -wE 'say for keys %ENV' is always the same - until you provide enough hash collisions, then it will randomize
that's reasonable, IMHO
and should not be forbidden 15:05
frettled moritz_: good point.
re-hashing should be allowed at any time.
masak mzedeler: I, for one, would like to see you expand on this in a p6l thread. 15:06
frettled the point to make is that one shouldn't rely on any specific behaviour, unless you (or something else) alters the hash.
moritz_ yes, that's very clear
masak mzedeler: your arguments sound interesting, but my brain is very small, and I often need to read things several times.
pugs_svn r27957 | jani++ | Clarification of hash key sort order, based on S32 15:08
frettled masak: for a small brain, yours is amazingly efficient. 15:09
PerlJam the electrical impulses don't have as far to travel.
frettled exactly! 15:10
huf watch out for that "small brain" trick, fenyman used it too
PerlJam huf++
huf +spelling.
frettled PerlJam: I would have thought of that as well, but it takes a while to think things up with this huge brain of mine.
huf: spleling is opitonal ;) 15:11
PerlJam My brain is large and efficient. The only problem is that I can't control it :) 15:12
I'll be trying to focus on something that's nominally important and my brain will tell me, "that's not as important as this small shiny object glittering out of the corner of your eye"
__ash__ the internet is a dangerous place with that attitude then 15:13
PerlJam Next thing you know, my brain has hijacked my focus to its own nefarious purposes.
frettled __ash__: there's a kitten picture illustrating that.
frettled patiently waits for someone to google it. 15:14
__ash__ shogun.shafted.com.au/temp/domokuns-kitten.jpg
mzedeler Sorry - I was afk.
masak: where should I post something about the .+ and .* invocation operators? 15:15
mzedeler is rebooting brain after seeing kitten chased by brick shaped chocolate cupcakes. 15:16
masak mzedeler: p6l.
mzedeler The usenet group? 15:17
moritz_ the mailling list
frettled mzedeler: dev.perl.org/perl6/lists/ 15:18
mzedeler Thanks.
frettled I've been a subscriber for almost six hours, so I'm very inveterate. 15:19
masak I've been a subscriber for four years, and some emails still make me feel like I don't understand Perl 6 at all. :) 15:20
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masak hm, five years. 15:20
moritz_ masak: same here (although I'm not subscribed that long)
15:20 donaldh joined
PerlJam moritz_, masak: same here and I've been subscribed since it was created (I don't know when that was) 15:22
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mzedeler Thanks for the pointer anyway. I'll prepare some kind of posting, but first I have to do some research into the history of those two operators. 15:36
masak mzedeler: what kind of history did you have in mind? 15:38
mzedeler: I think the important point is the different uses of those operators in different contexts. (multi dispatch, inheritence, list of candidates...)
PerlJam mzedeler: .* and .+ have bothered me too, but I haven't thought about it enough to come up with some specific, coherent arguments against them. 15:41
moritz_ if you don't like them, don't ues them? 15:42
PerlJam I don't.
But I primarily think that I just don't understand them. What problem do they solve?
mzedeler I'll try excavating the original justification and possible use cases first. 15:43
alester ping masak
masak alester: pong. 15:44
alester may I rerun your MMORPG story on Perlbuzz?
masak alester: yes.
mzedeler First argument is that most problems you can solve with .+ or .* can be done cleaner by explicit calls inside the classes themselves.
alester I need a bio for you, then, and a URL for me to link yr name to.
mzedeler Second argument is that outside code shouldn't know about any class implementation and how calls are subdivided into other calls. 15:45
masak alester: ok. I'm on the phone, so plz hold on for a few minutes.
alester sure.
15:45 KyleHa left
mzedeler Third, try to imagine the wierd call chains that shows up if you have multiple inheritance with some diamond shaped inheiritance paths. 15:46
moritz_ mzedeler: TimToady mentioned here multiple times that for .+ and .* your classes have to be specially designed 15:47
mzedeler I have to go and cook. Sorry for throwing all that stuff at you and then leaving. Anyone who'd like to talk more are welcome to send a mail to me at [email@hidden.address]
moritz_: I'd like to see such design.
Sorry, have to go.
moritz_ mzedeler: so would I ;-)
bye
PerlJam moritz_: or rather than being specially designed, you get a lazy Capture out of using .* or .+ that encapsulates the inheritance graph somehow. 15:49
moritz_ PerlJam: sounds like you're about to re-invent WALK or ^methods or so ;-)
pmichaud good afternoon, #perl6 15:52
TimToady continues to lurque 15:53
masak alester: URL: that'd be either masak.org/carl or feather.perl6.nl/~masak -- bio: how long? does the one on use.perl suffice?
pmichaud: good afternoon.
moritz_ pmichaud: still wrong time zone? ;-)
alester masak, i can adapt that. 15:54
PerlJam good morning pmichaud
pmichaud moritz_: just adopting whatever time zone seems appropriate
moritz_ asset.soup.io/asset/0420/8585_49f9_500.jpeg why does that remind me of Perl 6? ;-) 15:55
TimToady because everything reminds one of Perl 6... :P 15:56
masak moritz_: wonderful! :D
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pmichaud notes the increased level of bikeshed discussions taking place on p6l 15:59
moritz_ aye 16:00
masak looks at the "embedded comments" thread, thinking "what have I done?"
TimToady well, you predicted it too, so that's okay :)
masak "all is fair if you pre-predict" 16:01
TimToady it's an interesting aspect of human psychology that the less abstract issues get more bikeshedding, since everyone says "Ooh, something I understand well enough to have an opinion on." 16:02
pmichaud KyleHa++ # volunteering to do the august release! 16:04
KyleHa1 *bow*
moritz_ should I comment on the (#...) / {#...} proposal, or is it clear that we don't adopt it anyway? 16:05
masak moritz_: comment on it.
TimToady that one's not going to fly, but if you want to elucidate some of the reasons it won't, go ahead
masak exactly. 16:06
PerlJam Ask yourself how much longer you are willing to put up with the bikeshedding first :)
TimToady Oh, I'm very patient on that subject :)
pmichaud Is #= still in the running for indented pod, ooc? I haven't seen that in the thread. (more)
if #= is still available, then perhaps embedded is #=(...) :-P
TimToady the more people bikeshed, the more they realize they need a Designer. :)
or at least a Decider...
I'm reserving #= for TheDamian if he wants it 16:07
pmichaud #=(...) would seem to avoid many of the inadvertent cases. On the wrong hand, it would seem that (...) should then be pod-ish somehow, because of the '='
TimToady nodnod
pmichaud there's a self proclaimed Decider that lives just a few miles from me. I wish he hadn't ever gotten that job. 1/2 :-) 16:09
TimToady yes, well, I'm hopeful the best Deciders are the ones who don't actually like deciding things arbitrarily 16:10
"I am overcome with a sudden burst of wishy-washiness." --Charlie Brown 16:11
pmichaud news.softpedia.com/news/Perl-6-Comi...8819.shtml # nice to see a good (accurate) summary of things
masak did [particle]'s proposed changes go in already? 16:13
pugs_svn r27958 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Update some more filetest-using code. 16:14
r27958 | kyle++ |
r27958 | kyle++ | These tests are not run in Rakudo's spectest.data, so I haven't
r27958 | kyle++ | fudged them.
pmichaud I didn't see the proposed changes
[particle] no, that have not
moritz_ speaking of changes... I think it would be a good idea to apply Ben Morrow's patches
I don't know if the behaviour he proposes is the most sensible, but we should at very least be explicit about what we do 16:15
lisppaste3 particle pasted "comments on softpedia article" at paste.lisp.org/display/85200
KyleHa1 I haven't gotten to look at Ben's patches yet, but I was excited to see their existence. 16:19
TimToady Um, I thought it was the San Diego Times 16:21
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pmichaud particle has it right. I had mistaken the name a few months ago as well. 16:21
TimToady sudo apt-get install rar 16:22
ah, so I see
16:22 Matt-W left
TimToady huh, how did it do that paste? 16:23
16:23 Matt-W joined
TimToady maybe a cosmic ray hit my mouse button 16:23
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pmichaud particle++ raises some good factual corrections, but I don't think the article is as wrong as particle's comments make it seem to be 16:24
Matt-W rakudo: class A { }; class B { }; class C { has A|B @.a; }; say "alive";
p6eval rakudo 8d7fc7: OUTPUT«Malformed declaration at line 2, near "A|B @.a; }"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3369)␤»
pmichaud yes, the author has confused "rakudo" and "parrot"
TimToady it just comes across as a bit more aggrieved than it needs to be, I think
pmichaud but just because an article contains factual inaccuracies doesn't automatically put it into the realm of "opinion". It just makes it incorrect. 16:25
PerlJam [particle]: I think your tone is a little harsh and some of the comments have a bit of a knee-jerk feel to them, but I thought several of the same things that you said :)
pmichaud TimToady: I agree.
[particle] PerlJam: you're right about my tone. it was a 6am reply with a bit of a birthday hangover 16:26
PerlJam birthdays++ 16:27
pmichaud ....birthday? 16:28
TimToady it's because you're so old now
[particle] i'm crankier at 36, i guess.
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PerlJam [particle]: have you told anyone to get off of your lawn yet? (whether you actually have a lawn or not) 16:28
[particle] every blade of grass growing in my yard has been classified as a weed 16:29
i have fewer than 1000 left, i think
TimToady yards? weeds? blades? 16:30
Infinoid people to tell to get off your lawn?
pmichaud in general I hope our collective approach will be to gently correct the misconceptions about rakudo, perl 6, and parrot. I think it's entirely understandable that people outside the project can't immediately see how the pieces fit together, especially since it is substantially different from the perl 5 ecosystem
16:30 SolitoMortis left
TimToady aikido, and all that... 16:31
[particle] instead, i've got plum, asian pear, strawberry, blueberry, raspberry, tomato, fava, peppers, beets, radishes, pole beans, lettuce, zucchini, broccoli, ...
TimToady gently assist them to a stable position where they cannot harm themselves :)
PerlJam pmichaud: not to mention that the people writing the copy may not necessarily be the most technically minded.
[particle] pmichaud: i should rewrite that reply
pmichaud sounds a bit like my place. We have 17 trees on our lot. But all those trees leave very little sunlight for any grass beneath them
[particle] all on 0.06 acres, including the house 16:32
PerlJam [particle]: are you a master of vertical development?
[particle] yes :)
oh, i forgot the three varieties of onions, plus garlic 16:33
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pmichaud [particle]: anyway, happy belated birthday. I'm guessing your birthday is the same as my father's birthday. He doesn't have a lawn either. :-P 16:34
[particle] yesterday? yes, i think i remember that. thanks, and :P 16:35
PerlJam pmichaud: spekaing of birthdays ... I'm going to wish you yours early in case I forget in a couple of days: Happy Birthday! :)
pmichaud PerlJam: thanks
[particle] coke's is friday, i think
pmichaud (Thursday, for those keeping track of such things)
And yes, I was born on a Friday the 13th. :-)
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PerlJam next year Aug 13 will be a friday again. 16:38
Matt-W silly questions 16:39
pmichaud indeed it will.
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Matt-W if I make an object in $o and then say my $j = $o, does it copy by value or will methods called on $j affect $o? 16:39
pmichaud Matt-W: most objects act like references, as in P5
PerlJam Matt-W: $j and $o will refer to the same object.
Matt-W pmichaud: okay 16:40
so I need to manually copy
does this also apply to @arrays
pmichaud depends on what you mean by "apply to @arrays"
Matt-W does @a = @b copy @b into @a, or just duplicate the reference to the Array object that's sitting behind them? 16:41
pmichaud it copies the elements of @b into @a
Matt-W excellent
thanks :)
a semantic difference between storing your arrays in @ and $ variables
marvellous!
pmichaud oh, drat. 16:42
I just remembered that my driver's license expires on thursday
Matt-W doh
pmichaud guess I get to wait in line today or tomorrow
Matt-W that'll be fun
frettled Is there already an overview of what things are copied by value, name or reference in Perl 6? (They are probably defined in the spec, but are they listed somewhere in that particular context? 16:45
pmichaud alester: fwiw, here are my "missed the boat" comments that just occurred in another location. darkeside.blogspot.com/2009/08/perl...-date.html 16:46
(these were independent from the ubuntu forums thread that you were commenting on)
alester In general I've grown less tolerant of backseat drivers. 16:48
frettled Clive seems to have taken the feedback rather well, I think. 16:49
pmichaud agreed, very well.
frettled @karma birthdays
lambdabot birthdays has a karma of 1
frettled tsk, tsk.
birthdays++
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moritz_ (ben morrow)++ 16:52
(I really want to suggest £, just to teach USAnians '#' isn't called
'pound'... :) )
frettled heh
moritz_ nice idea ;-)
pmichaud moritz_: you'll never be able to pound that into our heads 16:53
frettled moritz_: the closure traits patch?
pmichaud moritz_: most of us don't have a pound of sense
moritz_ frettled: that was from the comments discussion
frettled moritz_: oh!
PerlJam moritz_: "pound" is easier to say than "octothorpe"
pmichaud and everyone knows that "hash" is "%" :-P
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frettled hehe 16:54
pmichaud and "tic-tac-toe symbol" is a bit cumbersome as well
frettled "grid" works.
moritz_ call it "crosshatch" then ;-)
or U+0023 NUMBER SIGN
PerlJam ETOOMANYSYLLABLES
pmichaud starts thinking about the "Rakudo Pound" release :-P 16:55
frettled pmichaud++
Using "sharp" is right out.
pmichaud "Rakudo ♯" ? 16:56
frettled moritz_: How about U+2116? :D
pmichaud: perhaps Rakudo flat instead? 16:57
U+266D
pmichaud We'll do "Rakudo Natural" first.
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PerlJam As long as we don't ever get "Rakudo ?" 16:57
frettled wonderful :)
moritz_ meh, the bikeshedding swapped over to #perl6, and it's my fault again 16:58
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pmichaud "Rakudo ‽" 16:58
PerlJam hrh
er, heh
TimToady actually, it's going to be #`{ your ad here }
alester The Tostitos / FedEx Perl 6 16:59
PerlJam Have a Rakudo and a Smile
frettled moritz_: but do you prefer Italian craftsmanship or Japanese fishing equipment? ;D 17:00
moritz_ frettled: yes
;-)
frettled darnit, that came right back in my face, didn't it ...
alester Handcrafted from pure Silicon Valley bits, Perl 6 provides you the power you need for your toughest computing problems, plus the arcane syntax women love.
frettled alester: May I quote you? 17:01
alester Sure.
moritz_ alester++
frettled Now I only need to find some examples of tough computing problems that Perl 6 solves powerfully, and arcane syntax that women love.
alester++ 17:02
japhb frettled: any use of the butterfly operator.
(see topic)
takadonet this channel starting to get little weird..... 17:03
pmichaud masak++ # use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39445
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moritz_ takadonet: starting? you're not here very long, are you? ;-) 17:04
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takadonet on and off the last 6 months 17:04
plarett ok just wondering whats discrete optimization
integer programming
frettled japhb: that will be interesting ...
[particle] hey, i was born on a friday, too.... 17:05
japhb I was born. I'm pretty sure of that. The rest I don't really know.
pmichaud Somehow I'd like to see "Perl 6 is my MMORPG" linked or summarized on perl6-projects.org 17:06
alester it's goin' up on Perlbuzz right now.
moritz_ maybe we need an -Ofun box
pmichaud -Ofun +2
frettled moritz_: yes! 17:07
pmichaud we can reshuffle the boxes and move "download"
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frettled 􏿽xABDownload􏿽xBB should be closer to the top, anyway. 17:07
guest_007 will perl6 be fast as perl 5.10?
frettled yesno
PerlJam guest_007: Is english as fast as spanish?
frettled knew the answer to that one. 17:08
...especially after all the comparisons of performance between 5.6.x, 5.8.x and the prereleases of 5.10.x...
guest_007 do you agree that Java is slow?
frettled no.
guest_007 will perl6 be as slow as Java? 17:09
__ash__ doesn't that depend on how many cores and the quality of the code being written?
PerlJam guest_007: you are asking questions devoid of anything meaningful.
frettled guest_007: do you agree that the RISC 4k processor had a superior architecture to Intel 686? :D
guest_007 :))
pmichaud guest_007: I'm guessing that someday Perl 6 will be fast enough that we don't care if it's faster than perl 5.10 17:10
guest_007 i want someday
pmichaud guest_007: another way of asking: is perl 5.10 faster than awk?
PerlJam pmichaud: or perl 4 even.
I know one of the things that worried me for a while after perl 5 came out was how slow it was as compared with perl 4. It didn't take very long for me to get to the "who cares?" stage 17:11
pmichaud I think it's useful to remember that 5.8 and 5.10 are not really my targets at the moment. These days I'm more inclined to ask "Is Perl 6 faster than Perl 5.004?"
guest_007 )
pmurias guest_007: actually it's the java app which are horribly slow 17:12
java itself is quite fast
frettled pmichaud: Then rakudo is doing far better than I would expect at this point in time.
Matt-W Java with a decent JIT is quite nippy
pmichaud frettled: well, Rakudo still has some serious speed issues. But we know where some of them are, and they're being addressed. 17:13
japhb pmichaud: Why 5.004?
pmichaud japhb: because 5.8 and 5.10 have had 15 years of optimizations in them
japhb pmichaud: Ah, I see.
How much cumulative difference has that actually made? 17:14
pmichaud if I want to compare speed, then in some sense I should ask if Perl 6 ten years from now is faster than 5.8 or 5.10 of today
japhb would be mildly surprised (though happy) if 5.8/5.10 were even 2x faster than 5.004
guest_007 pmichaud: perl6 will be faster then perl 5.10 in 2025
moritz_ who can see that far in the future? 17:15
japhb guest_007: well volunteered.
frettled :)
In some respects, Perl 6 is already faster than 5.8 in several ways that make eminent sense.
E.g. programmer time. 17:16
guest_007 perl6: say 1; say 2; say 3; say 123;
frettled And later: maintenance time.
p6eval elf 27958, pugs, rakudo 8d7fc7: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤123␤»
PerlJam frettled: that sounds like a really good topic for a blog post or a short article of some sort. 17:17
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frettled PerlJam: Yes, I should think so, and I think that masak or mberends would be good people for writing that. They're both pretty darn good at such. 17:17
Another thing that would be cute (􏿽xABI may think it's cute now􏿽xBB), would be to compare the speed of a small test program with Perl 5.10.1 + Moose. 17:18
But it would have to be a program that did some RL things.
Hmm. Do we have a replacement module for DateTime in Perl 6, BTW? 17:19
I've already pissed off Dave Rolsky once, so I might as well give it a second try.
:-/
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pmichaud frettled: lib/Temporal.pm in the rakudo repo 17:20
frettled aha!
That reminds me that I should check out a recent version of Rakudo, instead of fiddling with one that was current during NPW. 17:21
Regarding pissing off Dave Rolsky: no, I didn't and don't mean to. :) 17:22
takadonet loving having 8 CPU at work 17:23
pugs_svn r27959 | lwall++ | change embedded comment syntax to #`[...] and variants 17:28
r27959 | lwall++ | define statement_prefix:<void> to return Nil
r27959 | lwall++ | more s/Capture/Parcel/ mods
PerlJam TimToady++ that's bound to irk everybody equally :) 17:29
moritz_ TimToady++ # finding a use for the last unused printable ASCII character
TimToady I think ` is highly unlikely to occur in typical Perl 6 programs :)
guest_007 rakudo: #`[lwall did this] 17:31
p6eval rakudo 8d7fc7: ( no output )
PerlJam See? It's already implemented ;>
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frettled \o/ 17:32
[particle] editors will love you
frettled TimToady++
guest_007 What will happen if Larry Wall work with Bill Gates?
[particle] why don't you ask him?
frettled guest_007: Error: imagination out of bounds at line 23456. 17:33
PerlJam Larry might be a tad richer
But then he might also be more like Darth Vader than we would like ;)
frettled Nah, Bill Gates wouldn't be more like Darth Vader then. ;) 17:34
guest_007 they will need John Window and Mary Roof 17:35
PerlJam continues consuming an inordinate amount of well-seasoned and smoked brisket 17:36
guest_007 vista will become stable 17:38
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Matt-W nah 17:40
windows 7 is what vista should've been
forget vista
guest_007 ubuntu is what vista should have been :) 17:41
pmichaud should I switch Rakudo to use the #`(...) form now, or should we transition to allow #(...) for a while longer yet?
moritz_ pmichaud: if you switch now, I'll try to update the tests
pmichaud well, I think I can allow both for a while :-) 17:42
but better is probably to just use the #` form
guest_007 i agree
moritz_ can I assume that it's also #`[comment] in char classes? 17:43
pugs_svn r27960 | lwall++ | [STD] deprecate backticklessness
pmichaud Ah, STD deprecates it with a worry 17:44
guest_007 i think that lwall know what are you talking about!
TimToady the deprecation will disappear soon
well, it was the logical next thing to do, I suspect 17:45
pmichaud I wonder if it's worthwhile to add <worry> to Rakudo's current grammar somehow
guest_007 r27961 | lwall++ | I know everything, my children
TimToady I can fix everything in the test suite, but I can't fix rakudo's darkpan :) 17:46
pmichaud We don't (yet?) support the darkpan
frettled SEP
PerlJam TimToady: rakudo's darkpan have active developers.
er, has
(anyone using rakudo at this point isn't relying on things NOT changing) 17:47
moritz_ TimToady: are you going to update the test suite, or should I?
TimToady well, if you want to do it, I won't stop you :)
make snaptest should tell you everything that needs changing 17:48
frettled Hmm, now that we have Parcel, where is Part?
TimToady I think we'll add Post first
frettled And at a later point in time, Farce. 17:49
TimToady once we have Post, we can add Modern
frettled :)
pugs_svn r27961 | moritz++ | [t/spec] embedded comments and unspaces now have a backtick 17:51
guest_007 r27962 | guest_007++ | [fix] Perl6 now runs faster 17:53
frettled For some reason, pugs_svn is not fooled. 17:54
TimToady @karma guest_007
lambdabot guest_007 has a karma of 0
TimToady nor is lambdabot :)
frettled heh
japhb guest_007 += e**(pi * i) + 1; 17:55
(No sigil on nicks, you see.)
TimToady shouldn't that be -i ?
moritz_ bikeshed harder! 17:56
japhb heh
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dalek kudo: 1d75a78 | pmichaud++ | src/ (2 files):
Embedded comments now require backticks.
 18:12
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[particle] -Obikeshed 18:31
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pmurias how can i read in a 32 bit little endian number portably in C? 18:53
Matt-W use a library which provides the function for you
pmurias :)
Matt-W otherwise you need a pile of configs and #defines, I think
don't think anything comes as standard which can figure it out 18:54
because you have to know if you're big-endian or not
and how big your target variable is
reading it is easy, it's putting it somewhere that's hard :)
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frettled rakudo: my $year=1993; ((time - Temporal::DateTime.new(date => Temporal::Date.new(:year($year), :month(9)), time => Temporal::Time.new()).epoch) / 86400).ceiling.fmt("September %d, $year").say; 19:15
p6eval rakudo 1d75a7: OUTPUT«September 5824, 1993␤»
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TimToady any Perl 6 code containing the constant 86400 is probably wrong anyway, at least until the astronomers give up on leap seconds 19:17
japhb
.oO( Another warning like concatenating the string 19 in front of something? )
frettled TimToady: Yes, there's a high risk for failure around midnight. 19:18
I was thinking about the leap second problem the other day, and I've come to the realization that it's just a bloody nuisance that one either has to live with or ignore. 19:19
19:20 donaldh left
frettled Anyway, there doesn't appear to be a reasonably easy way to compare date and time yet. :-/ 19:20
19:20 donaldh joined
[particle] run an external perl 5 script 19:21
frettled /o\ 19:22
Of course, I could try to reimplement that part of the DateTime module, hahahahahaa.
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[particle] pick your poison :) 19:27
frettled Hmm. And there is implied some difference in what will happen if I use time instead of gmtime, since gmtime is always UTC, which means it includes leap seconds. 19:28
frettled checks the code for september.pl.
Ooh, this is ooold: 19:29
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frettled require "timelocal.pl"; 19:29
Hmm. 19:31
moritz_ alester: on perlbuzz.com/2009/08/perl-6-is-my-mmorpg.html all the side bars appear below the post contents, all on the left side (firefox 3.0, linux) 19:32
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frettled aha, aha (I think).^H 19:43
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frettled alester: what moritz_ said happens in Opera 9.64 as well. 19:45
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frettled rakudo: (Time.new.gmtime - time.truncate).say; 19:52
p6eval rakudo 1d75a7: OUTPUT«0␤»
frettled Shouldn't the result be 23?
moritz_ rakudo: say TIme.new.gmtime 19:53
japhb rakudo: say Q:PIR{ %r = time };
p6eval rakudo 1d75a7: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub TIme␤»
rakudo 1d75a7: OUTPUT«The opcode 'time_p' (time<1>) was not found. Check the type and number of the arguments␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3369)␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say Time.new.gmtime
p6eval rakudo 1d75a7: OUTPUT«2009-08-11T19:53:32+0000␤»
moritz_ no fractional seconds here
japhb How do you feed a carriage return *into* the evalbot? 19:54
moritz_ japhb: with ␤
frettled A result of 23 would indicate that it included leap seconds, as it should according to S32::Temporal, because gmtime is supposed to be in UTC, which has had 23 leap seconds added since 1972.
japhb rakudo: say Q:PIR{ $N0 = time␤%r = $N0 }; 19:55
p6eval rakudo 1d75a7: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in set_number_native()␤in Main (/tmp/wT0ySePYtA:2)␤»
japhb rakudo: say Q:PIR{ $N0 = time␤%r = box $N0 };
p6eval rakudo 1d75a7: OUTPUT«1250020542.9451␤»
moritz_ japhb++
japhb There we go. Sheesh.
frettled japhb: and then you need to either use truncate or ceiling (depending on what's actually correct, you'll only be off by max 1 second) :) 19:56
japhb: btw, what did you do to insertthe newline? 19:57
japhb GNOME Unicode-char-by-hex-codepoint. CTRL-SHIFT-U, type hex, ENTER (Or alternately hold CTRL-SHIFT, U, hex, release CTRL-SHIFT) 19:58
moritz_ or simply copy&paste it ;-)
frettled Ah, so _now_ I get to suggest Rakudo ? 19:59
moritz_ doesn't understand the question
note that the line break stuff is not a rakudo feature, but one of p6eval
frettled Or, as pmichaud suggested, Rakudo ? 20:00
moritz_: which question now? :d
moritz_ bah.
frettled hmm, s/d/D/
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frettled moritz_: but seriously, it appears to me that Rakudo should have returned a result of 23 (or 22 because of rounding error). 20:04
moritz_ frettled: feel free to submit a bug report
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frettled Ah, rakudobug@... 20:08
20:09 mikehh left
frettled Hmm, now how do I find the version number of Rakudo? 20:12
Just 2009-08? 20:13
[particle] did you build from source? 20:14
or install a package?
frettled proto did it for me.
[particle] proto installed rakudo?
frettled it downloads and builds. 20:15
(well, and installs, FSVO 􏿽xABinstalls􏿽xBB)
[particle] proto, written in perl 6?
[particle] is missing something
if you have a git checkout of rakudo, change to that directory and type 'git rev-parse HEAD' 20:16
frettled No, proto is written in Perl 5.
japhb [particle]: proto is partly written in perl 5
[particle] ah
frettled okay, partially, then.
[particle] was missing something :)
japhb [particle]: you must be weakly interacting today.
mkelly32 `git describe` is slightly prettier, potentially. 20:17
frettled So when that gives me this nice string, that's sort of the version? 8d7fc7d4a16b26b4b539de8c08a030cfecfe1bb5
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frettled mkelly32: FSVO "pretty", I suppose. :) 2009-07-90-g8d7fc7d 20:17
japhb frettled: that is exactly the version. DVCS software tends to treat nodes in the version graph as opaque hashes.
mkelly32 frettled: so, that's 90 revisions after 2009-07 was tagged, iirc
[particle] yep, git uses hashes to identify commits, not versions or revisions
frettled mkelly32: aha.
japhb: oki! 20:18
mkelly32 the longer thing is the sha1 hash of the commit pointed to by HEAD
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mkelly32 which references the sha1 hash of the 'tree' representing the code at that revision, as well as the hash of the 'parent', the revision which came before it. 20:19
japhb Apparently Linus got bored last week and rewrote the sha1 code in git.
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moritz_ is it faster now? 20:23
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KyleHa1 How much faster would it have to be for the time savings to add up to the time spent on the rewrite? 20:26
frettled smaller than ? (git-using programmer time) 20:29
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frettled Hmm, the test for time stuff doesn't check this leap second thing either. 20:31
It's all TimToady's fault for that innocent comment 79 minutes ago! ;) 20:36
moritz_ perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/timeline...hange.html 20:37
frettled nice! 20:38
I hope that's on Iron Man.
moritz_ it is not. 20:39
I had some problems with my RSS feed
japhb moritz_: I believe it is in some cases ... but the major goal was apparently to speed up startup for all the git commands by not needing a whole crypto lib for just that one function.
moritz_ and after they removed my feed twice without any notification I had no more motivation left to ask them what's wrong this time. 20:40
japhb KyleHa1: well, if git gets used by a great many people, using it quite a few times a day ....
KyleHa1 japhb: Good point. 20:42
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payload rakudo: say ?(" " ~~ /<-[\s]>/) 20:50
p6eval rakudo 1d75a7: OUTPUT«1␤»
payload did i sai it wrong to match something _not_ ?
moritz_ rakudo: say ?(" " ~~ /<-\s>/) 20:51
p6eval rakudo 1d75a7: OUTPUT«perl6regex parse error: Error parsing enumerated character class at offset 26, found '\'␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3369)␤»
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dalek kudo: 012b1ab | (Kyle Hasselbacher)++ | docs/ChangeLog:
[docs/ChangeLog] Add a line for the embedded comments change
 20:53
moritz_ the S02 change broke a smartlink in t/spec/S02-whitespace_and_comments/comments.t (line 141) 20:55
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pugs_svn r27962 | kyle++ | [t/spec] new style filetests in unlink.t 21:01
KyleHa1 Is it possible for me to define my own tags for rt.perl.org ? 21:02
moritz_ don't think so
KyleHa1 I'd like to flag things as [tested] so I can easily skip over them in searches and maybe even [untested] (or [testable]) so I can target them.
Oh. Bleah. I guess I'll stick to my personal spreadsheet. 21:03
moritz_ yes, I'd love that too
if we can convince pmichaud++ to suggest such a tag I'm sure he can convince the rt.perl.org admins
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frettled I have this hunch that he won't be hard to convince. 21:04
dalek kudo: a5dfe96 | (Kyle Hasselbacher)++ | t/spectest.data:
[spectest.data] unlink.t also regressed due to filetest changes
 21:05
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pmichaud I'm not sure how such things are done, tbh 21:18
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moritz_ pmichaud: you send a mail to perlbug-admin I suppose? 21:20
saying you want a tag 'testscommited', and a rule that if an email contains an appropriate moniker the ticket is marked automatically with that tag 21:22
just like it is for [PATCH] right now
pmichaud so we'd like "[tested]" as the tag? 21:23
KyleHa1 I think [testscommitted] is more accurate, less ambiguous.
Someone could think 'tested' means "independently verified" or something. 21:25
pmichaud hmmm, looks like I might be able to add the tag myself. 21:26
I'm not sure I can get it to automatically tag from email, though
Let's try.
frettled btw, that should be testscommitted
Hmm, I somehow missed KyleHa1's line, sorry.
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pmichaud Results: "Permission denied" :-( 21:27
KyleHa1 Actually, I probably should have highlighted my spelling change, frettled++
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pmichaud message to perlbug-admin sent 21:34
we'll see what kind of response we get :)
KyleHa1 Thank you, pmichaud++
pmichaud afk, dinner 21:42
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KyleHa1 S10-packages/basic.t is packed full of regression tests. 21:44
pugs_svn r27963 | moritz++ | [t/spec] test for RT #67450 - +* as array index
KyleHa1 They step on each other a lot because of the heavy use of eval and the i
"inner runloop" thing. 21:45
I'm thinking about creating S10-packages/rt.t, but I'm afraid I'm just getting lazy.
moritz_ I'm not at all against removing eval, and #?rakudo skip the tests that fail now
KyleHa1 Time for my commute, so I'll think about it. 21:46
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colomon_ That reminds me, I never got a satisfactory answer to my bignums question the other day. 23:01
Is it possible to enable them in Rakudo?
pmichaud colomon_: we're waiting a bit to see how Parrot's bignum support evolves 23:06
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colomon_ Fair enough. 23:09
pmichaud I'll add it to the ROADMAP, though (if it's not already there)
colomon_ If you need a guinea pig, I'd be happy to do insane Project Euler-esque testing on them. 23:10
pmichaud (It is. It's listed as "ought to have", although I think we might be leaning a bit towards "nice to have" instead.)
colomon_ Yeah, I must admit that while they are very fun for little toy mathematical scripts, I don't think I've ever used them in a real-world application (in Perl 5). 23:12
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jonjj hello guys ... i am new here .. i have a doubt about perl6 grammar .... say i am wrting simple scripts which dont use any oop or avanced aspects of perl6 will my scripts pay an overhead at parsing time ?? 23:29
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japhb jonjj: Are you concerned about the complexity of the Perl 6 grammar? If so, note that there was extensive work put into the grammar design so that the theoretical performance can be faster than Perl 5 (fewer places where backtracking is necessary) -- but the currently implementations are simply not yet speed-optimized. We're more in the 'completeness' phase than the 'speed' phase. 23:38
BAH
jnthn is back from @travel 23:40
Was sick most of the time I was in the UK, but enjoyed it for the most part anyway.
Sleep now, and will be back hacking on Rakudo tomorrow. :-)
japhb *yay*
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mikehh rakudo (a5dfe95) builds on parrot r40495 - make test/make spectest (up to 27963) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 i386 23:51
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