»ö« | perl6.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo: / pugs: / std: , or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by wolfe.freenode.net on 30 October 2009.
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dalek kudo: f16c9e2 | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
spectest-progress.csv update: 451 files, 32696 (85.2% of 38389) pass, 15 fail

S02-lexical-conventions/unicode.rakudo aborted 5 test(s) S12-introspection/methods.t aborted 10 test(s)		 00:04
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jnthn S12-introspection/methods.t # unexpected... :-/ 00:08
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jnthn pokes zaslon 00:34
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pmichaud s1n/others: note that I'll be late to p6m tonight 00:39
afk
japhb jnthn, is it expected that blizkost no longer builds against current Parrot (at least, Plumage can't build it)? 00:41
jnthn japhb: Yes, I think the PCC changes probably hit it quite hard. 00:44
japhb jnthn, ah, OK. I wanted to make sure I hadn't broken something in Plumage it needed.
jnthn No, almost certainly not.
OK, sleep for me...night o/ 00:49
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Woodi jnthn: ... 00:55
1Gb memory looks not so much for Rakudo build now... 00:56
820 Mb used for settings...
Wolfman2000 ...and among the new pieces of stress to my convoluted puzzle...I apparently now have two full time job opportunities while I'm trying to get through college...and neither job seems to allow the flexibility of staying with college.
I'm starting to wonder whether you guys are good luck for me or not. 00:57
Woodi Wolfman2000: easy, collage is important and Perl6 ALPHA :) 00:58
Wolfman2000 Woodi: I don't get how ALPHA fits into "important"
Woodi whatewer you do Perl6 will wait :) 00:59
probably :)
"first things first"..
Wolfman2000 Woodi: Hmm...true. Still, I want to at least get a dedicated Perl 6 pastebin up. 01:03
I'm actually almost ready to test that part...slowly.
Woodi you write it entirelly in Perl 6 ? 01:04
Wolfman2000 Woodi: nope. This is in Perl 5. masak is working on a Perl 6 version. Eventually we'll combine forces or something. 01:05
I still don't know enough about Web.pm to even attempt. 01:06
Woodi Rakudo master at least builds :) 01:07
Wolfman2000 Woodi: Would you at least know how much the master branch has been updated within the past...week? 01:09
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Woodi Wolfman2000: probably no updates in last few weeks :) but required Parrot version changed today 01:11
and debian upgraded libicu sho i needed to rebuild 01:12
k, gn #perl6 01:16
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colomon Wolfman2000: do you want to know how much the master branch has updated recently? 01:44
Wolfman2000 colomon: I'm curious. 01:45
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colomon One sec... 01:45
lisppaste3 colomon pasted "rakudo git log for november" at paste.lisp.org/display/90149 01:46
colomon Most of the changes are quite minor, but there's been about one a day in November. 01:47
emma 08:56 < Wolfman2000> masak: ...that means we're going to be competing then 01:49
08:57 <@masak> Wolfman2000: competition in here is usually quite mutually beneficial.
Wolfman2000 colomon: understood 01:50
emma ^ Is this the start of a code-off?
Wolfman2000 emma: no clue.
emma "we'll settle this with regular expressions"
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diakopter my PAST interpreter in JavaScript proceedeth. it passes the first 10 nqp-rx test files 01:51
whee.
and 16-ternary.t and 36-callable.t 01:55
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diakopter reads golang.org 03:04
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pattm ned:~$ Database last updated on 10-Nov-2009 21:33:02 EST. Domain servers in listed order: www.greatestate.com www.westonmass.net www.myefact.com www.efactusa.com 205.178.190.14 bash: Database: command no t found 03:26
whoops 03:27
sorry, accidental cutpaste :(
stupid putty buttons
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Wolfman2000 Back from 2nd dinner. 1st dinner sucked. eternaleye: first attempt at pasting went...unsuccessful. Trying to understand what went wrong. 04:13
eternaleye Wolfman2000: Okay. Have you got the API the commandline client will use figured out? If so, maybe I can start with getting an actual CLI client coded up. 04:14
Wolfman2000 eternaleye: Didn't get that far yet. Sorry.
I need to make sure the thing pastes and can be viewed first.
eternaleye Wolfman2000: Not a problem; I'm in no rush :D
Wolfman2000 What I can tell you: whatever your client does, it has to be able to send POST data.
Also, while I'm here: is there a permanent way to force MySQL into a sort of strict mode? 04:16
eternaleye Wolfman2000: Global sql_mode is probably what you want: dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/ser...-mode.html - session is for that connection; global is for _all_ connections 04:22
(I googled 'mysql persistent strict')
(I can haz the googlemancy powerz)
Also, POST is easy enough with either curl or wget 04:23
I'm thinking to use curl or wget, wrapped in perl for the first client, then transition to pure-perl so that it works on Windows 04:24
Wolfman2000 eternaleye: what I'm also debating...do we allow anonymous pastings with the CLI?
eternaleye Wolfman2000: Yes. 04:25
Wolfman2000 right: check credentials before parsing the files.
eternaleye Wolfman2000: Although I'd recommend setting up Apache to deny unreasonable numbers of connections from individual IPs
Wolfman2000 eternaleye: Don't know how to do that yet, not worried at this point 04:26
eternaleye where 'unreasonable' is > 20..30
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eternaleye Wolfman2000: dominia.org/djao/limitipconn.html 04:27
There are other modules that do the samwe thing.
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eternaleye It's a popular wheel to reinvent ;D 04:27
Wolfman2000 eternaleye: sorry, on slight brain burnout. will read that later. 04:28
eternaleye Wolfman2000: Mainly pasted it so it's there for you to come back to in the backlog
Wolfman2000 eternaleye: that means I'd have to remember to check the backlog
eternaleye Wolfman2000: irclog.perlgeek.de has a nice search function 04:29
Wolfman2000 let's see if I can at least set the global modes without causing problems. 04:30
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Wolfman2000 ...figures 04:33
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pmichaud hugme: tweet rakudoperl The Rakudo-ng branch -- enode 7|mst 8|chanserv 9|frew] 05:01
hugme hugs pmichaud; tweet delivered
pmichaud grrrrr
hugme: tweet rakudoperl The Rakudo-ng branch -- use.perl.org/~pmichaud/journal/39874 05:02
hugme hugs pmichaud; tweet delivered
pmichaud better.
time for sleep 05:03
bbl
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metal !help 05:32
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Wolfman2000 metal: what's the problem? 05:36
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metal no 05:43
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Wolfman2000 Juerd: If you are there, I will require DateTime::Format::MySQL installed please. 05:54
...wait, use the bots
phenny: tell Juerd to please install DateTime::Format::MySQL on feather.
phenny Wolfman2000: I'll pass that on when Juerd is around.
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quietfanatic_ Oh, whoops, still logged on in the kitchen. 06:17
I gues I'll use that to backlog huh
diakopter I thought it was in the dining room, with the lead pipe. 06:18
by Miss Scarlet. 06:19
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Wolfman2000 phenny: tell Juerd I may want postgresql at this rate. Mysql + Catalyst + DBIC = Trainwreck at this stage. 06:30
phenny Wolfman2000: I'll pass that on when Juerd is around.
Wolfman2000 ...pastebins are NOT supposed to be this compliated, are they?
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mathw Morning 07:23
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zaslon loljnthnhazblogged! jnthn++ 'Starting to get over the hump': use.perl.org/~JonathanWorthington/j...3?from=rss 07:54
lolpmichaudhazblogged! pmichaud++ 'The Rakudo-ng branch': use.perl.org/~pmichaud/journal/39874?from=rss 07:57
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moritz_ good morning 08:11
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moritz_ Wolfman2000, Juerd: I installed DateTime::Format::MySQL on feather 08:15
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Woodi morning 08:22
moritz_: should Plumage be default installer for all Parrot based languages or just for things wroted in Parrot language ? 08:24
mathw morning 08:25
moritz_ Woodi: I don't know 08:27
#parrot is probably the better place to ask
good morning mathw 08:28
mathw hi moritz_
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pugs_svn r29050 | lwall++ | [STD] refactor most P6 rules out to STD::P6 subgrammar 09:10
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bryan[c1] can someone recommend a good article or something to enhance my knowledge of regular expressions? 09:31
Su-Shee bryan[c1]: "mastering regular expressions" or something perl 6 specific? 09:33
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Woodi mberends: ping 09:46
jnthn morning, folks 09:48
Woodi o/
moritz_ o morning
frettled Good morning! 09:49
jnthn Woodi: Yes, that memory usage seems rather...high. :-/ 09:50
mberends Woodi: pong
Woodi mberends: just trying to install http-daemon with not--gen-parrot rakudo... 09:51
and had problems with Configure.pm
mberends Woodi: right, there was something in the backlog about the directory layout being neither parrot-in-rakudo or rakudo-in-parrot 09:52
Woodi looks things change...
i would like what is "normal"...
moritz_ "normal" is installed. 09:53
Woodi so /opt/perl/bin/perl6 is right one if parrot there too ?
moritz_ IMHO yes
mberends at short notice there is no remedy except to restructure your Rakudo installation... next week I shall have some time to fix the thing properly. 09:54
Woodi rakudo_dir will be in that case /opt/perl/bin... but rakudo Test.pm is moved deeply into parrot-dev install
mberends afk& # teaching Perl 5 on Padre in London :) 09:55
Juerd Good morning
phenny Juerd: 05:54Z <Wolfman2000> tell Juerd to please install DateTime::Format::MySQL on feather.
Juerd: 06:30Z <Wolfman2000> tell Juerd I may want postgresql at this rate. Mysql + Catalyst + DBIC = Trainwreck at this stage.
Woodi gl :)
moritz_ installed that module already 09:56
moritz_ would also like to know what kind of trainwreck that is 10:01
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jnthn pmichaud++ # good post 10:03
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Woodi rakudo: my $tpm = %*VM<config><libdir> ~ %*VM<config><versiondir> ~ "Test.pm"; say "$tpm"; if $tpm ~~ :f { say "ok" }; 10:18
p6eval rakudo f16c9e: /home/p6eval//p2/lib/parrot/1.7.0-develTest.pm␤ 10:19
Woodi rakudo: my $tpm = %*VM<config><libdir> ~ %*VM<config><versiondir> ~ "/Test.pm"; say "$tpm"; if $tpm ~~ :f { say "ok" };
p6eval rakudo f16c9e: /home/p6eval//p2/lib/parrot/1.7.0-devel/Test.pm␤
Woodi any idea how to automatically get rakudo test.pm install path ? 10:20
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moritz_ my best bet would be 'use Test;' and then inspect %*INC 10:22
Woodi err :) 10:23
moritz_ err, what's wrong? 10:24
Woodi if it can be use(d) it why Makefile tries to install it ? :) 10:25
jnthn
.oO( didn't err used to be a Perl 6 operator? )
moritz_ Woodi: which Makefile?
Woodi json one :) 10:26
http-daemon particulary
moritz_ json is quite a different beast than http-daemon 10:27
Woodi prove need test.pir maybe ?
moritz_ anyway, the likely answer is "because it's out of date"
Woodi i'm aware of it... just wondering is agrement new path/names conventions... 10:29
for %*INC.kv -> $k, $v { say "$k: $v"; } 10:32
rakudo: for %*INC.kv -> $k, $v { say "$k: $v"; }
p6eval rakudo f16c9e: Temporal: 1␤Hash: 1␤Rat: 1␤Junction: 1␤Block: 1␤Pair: 1␤Bool: 1␤NYI: 1␤Num: 1␤Signature: 1␤traits: 1␤IO: 1␤Complex: 1␤List: 1␤Array: 1␤Parameter: 1␤Whatever: 1␤Any: 1␤Int: 1␤Mapping: 1␤Range: 1␤Match: 1␤IO/Socket/INET: 1␤IO/Socket: 1␤Attribute: 1␤Object: 1␤Str: 1␤Code: 1␤Buf: 1␤Safe:
../hom…
Woodi $keys are @ ?
is p6 Data::Dumper available ? 10:36
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Woodi moritz_: what you say works perfectly - use and then inspect :) 10:39
rgrau` rakudo: my $b = 4,5,6; my $a=1,2,3,$b; say $a.perl
p6eval rakudo f16c9e: [1, 2, 3, [4, 5, 6]]␤
Woodi rgrau`: .WHAT works too 10:41
coffe & 10:42
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rgrau` rakudo: my $b = 4,5,6; my $a=1,2,3,$b; say $a.WHAT , "(.WHAT asks for the Class AFAIK)" 10:55
p6eval rakudo f16c9e: Array()(.WHAT asks for the Class AFAIK)␤
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Woodi right 10:57
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Woodi .perl can be used as serialisation or like json for js ? 10:58
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jnthn Woodi: Yes, that's the right kinda idea. 11:00
.perl is like Data::Dumper built in. 11:01
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Woodi so i can say .perl | perl -e STDIO ? 11:01
mathw jnthn: I was going to ask you today about helping with the ng branch. Unfortunately my internet connection's insanely unstable at the moment. 11:02
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mathw jnthn: so if I ask things and then go quiet, that's why 11:02
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jnthn mathw: OK. :-) 11:04
mathw But there is a very simple question which probably has a very nasty answer: is there anything I can pick up?
jnthn Flu? 11:05
;-)
mathw umm
jnthn mathw: Oh, you didn't want a nasty answer... :-)
mathw something that will still allow me to sing in the gig I'm in tonight might be preferable
jnthn mathw: We're actually at the point where we're starting to bring back the setting. :-) 11:06
mathw ahah
jnthn mathw: That is, we actually can write operator decls in there now.
And classes and other bits.
mathw woo
I can do that
jnthn *nod*
mathw as it's in Perl 6 :)
jnthn However, we've still got some missing bits that will cause ouch.
mathw no doubt 11:07
jnthn I think "for" loops are still kinda missing.
I fear given/when is too.
mathw umm
okay
those are quite important
jnthn ;-)
given/when should be easy enough to put back.
Mostly because I doubt in terms of the PAST they make they would need to change at all from master.
The for loops are a bit more interesting, because laziness plays in here. 11:08
And the relation between for and map.
mathw hmm
I think I shan't look at for loops
jnthn pmichaud++ has those bits in his head much more than I, so I'm inclined to leave him to put that back.
If you want to put something core back though, given/when should be fairly approachable.
mathw mmm
jnthn mathw: You can almost copy-paste the grammar decls from STD for given/when/default to get the parsing. 11:10
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mathw I shall take a look 11:10
jnthn Note statement_control:given needs to become statement_control:sym<given>.
(We don't have that bit of sugar.)
mathw adds rules 11:12
Woodi running http-daemon gives: the int() sub and .int method have been replaced by the .Int method.. 11:13
it's from rakudo internal ?
mathw jnthn: so you think the action methods for given/when/default are going to be much the same? 11:14
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jnthn mathw: I'd think so, yeah. 11:16
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Woodi Int works; what can i do with: invoke() not implemented in class 'Integer' ? 11:19
moritz_ where does this error come from?
Woodi http-daemon: make run
i replaced int(..) to Int and it helps. but cannot find any invoke 11:20
moritz_ you need (...).Int instead
Woodi kind conversion ? 11:21
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mathw hmm 11:21
rakudo's just segfaulting 11:22
stashed my changes, it's still segfaulting
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mathw booooo 11:22
moritz_ rm -rf parrot_install; make realclean; build again
mathw that's what I just did
and it works
yay
now to test
woohoo 11:23
it's broken
that's good, I'd have been most astonished if it wasn't
jnthn mathw: Note that you can't just copy-paste the actions without changing the method names. 11:24
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jnthn If you didn't already do that. 11:24
mathw yes, I figured that bit out
I've got
Method 'blocktype' not found for invocant of class 'PAST;Op' 11:25
current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6;Actions;statement_control:sym<when>' pc 88129 (src/gen/perl6-actions.pir:825)
Woodi moritz_: s/Int\((.+)\)/($1).Int/ resolved :)
moritz_ mathw: is that the ng branch?
mathw moritz_: yes
jnthn mathw: Can you nopaste your diff so I can glance at it? 11:26
mathw sure 11:27
I'm finding the error stack highly confusing
gist.github.com/231876 11:28
no doubt something needs migrating to new-way that I don't know about
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moritz_ mathw: uhm, where is the EXPR rule whose capture you're accessing in there? 11:30
mathw moritz_: I'm not sure, actually. It's mentioned several times in the grammar, but doesn't seem to be defined in there 11:31
jnthn mathw: OK, does given work?
mathw jnthn: I'll check
jnthn Let's do one at a time. :-)
mathw heh no 11:32
non-existent sub declare_implicit_function_vars
is there an alternative to that?
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jnthn mathw: As a first effort, try just ripping that line out. 11:33
I think we're handling it automatically now as part of .finishpad or so.
mathw oooh
that would be fancy
okay, something of an improvement 11:34
it runs
jnthn \o/ 11:35
mathw I'm not sure it's right though
jnthn But does $_ get set? :-)
mathw given 1 { say $_; }
produces
Object()
jnthn Ah.
mathw this seems wrong
jnthn I think that's a no.
11:37 moritz_ sets mode: +o mathw
jnthn mathw: I think maybe look at the output of --target=pir 11:37
mathw: And see what the signature code for the inner block looks like 11:38
There'll be a set_signature_elem line, which if you paste here I can explain.
mathw set_signature_elem does not appear in the PIR
jnthn Oh? 11:40
That's...odd.
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Woodi PERL6LIB keeps *.pm ? where *.pir should go ? 11:42
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moritz_ I think rakudo searches for .pm and .pir files in the same directories 11:44
mathw jnthn: want to see the PIR? 11:48
(had a net glitch again, am on hold with tech support)
jnthn: gist.github.com/231884
jnthn mathw: thanks, looking 11:49
mathw as far as I can see, it looks up $_ from the outer scope, but there's nothing to do anything given-y with it 11:50
but then, I'm not sure there's anything to cause that in the action method 11:53
mathw doesn't understand the swapping <EXPR> and <xblock> thing
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moritz_ doesn't understand wher <EXPR> comes from 11:54
ah, from xblock 11:57
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moritz_ but why is it $<EXPR> and not $<xblock><EXPR>? 11:58
Woodi must be automagic :) 12:00
mathw moritz_: no I think you're correct
however, that's only mentioned in when, so it's not the problem with given :) 12:01
bah, tech support are useless as always
are you using a router
yes
plug the modem directly into your computer, it's probably the router's fault 12:02
mathw scowls
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jnthn mathw: Sorry, got dragged in to sort out some flash/perl interaction bug. 12:21
mathw jnthn: no problem 12:22
As far as I'v egot is convincing myself that there's no mechanism in the PIR which can possibly allow $_ to be set properly inside the given, by which I assume I'm missing something in the action method which would do that 12:23
jnthn mathw: looking at the PIR, I agree. 12:24
The block is not getting a signature / optional $_.
moritz_ rakudo: given 5 -> $x { say $x } 12:25
p6eval rakudo f16c9e: 5␤
moritz_ rakudo: given 5 -> $x { say $x; say $_ }
p6eval rakudo f16c9e: 5␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤
12:26 payload left
mathw std: giv{ 12:26
p6eval std 29050: ===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse subscript; couldn't find final '}' at /tmp/m8DUR2ZoAd line 1 (EOF):␤------> giv{⏏<EOL>␤Undeclared routine:␤ giv used at line 1␤FAILED 00:01 101m␤
mathw argh
damned cat
std: given 5 -> $x { say $x; }
jnthn :-)
p6eval std 29050: ok 00:01 104m␤
mathw interestingly 12:27
my local rakudo-ng-with-given can't parse that
but I used the rules from STD
jnthn That's...odd. 12:30
mathw yes
especially since I can't see why STD can handle it either
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moritz_ does rakudo's xblock rule do the same as STD's? 12:31
jnthn Yeah, that's what I'm pondering. It may do the wrong thing. 12:32
Also, fixing that may fix the other issues.
mathw rakudo says
token xblock($*IMPLICIT = 0) { <EXPR> <.ws> <pblock($*IMPLICIT)>
}
STD's is messier 12:33
moritz_ that looks rightish
mathw token xblock {
:my $*GOAL ::= '{';
:my $*BORG = {};
<EXPR>
{ $*BORG.<culprit> //= $<EXPR>.cursor(self.pos) }
<.ws>
<pblock>
}
the difference is the <pblock> rule 12:34
STD's looks for signature
moritz_ right, I just found that too 12:35
mathw rakudo's calls <.newpad> and then goes to <blockoid>
moritz_ rakudo-ng's pblock is really just block
mathw yes
that did strike me as odd
jnthn Oh. 12:36
That...might just be the source of the problem.
mathw :)
moritz_ somehow I thought of pblock as "pointy block", not "parameterized block" 12:37
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mathw either way it's still not the same as a normal block 12:38
jnthn Aye 12:40
mathw experiments
jnthn OK, I think I'm done sorting out the "fun" 12:41
*sigh* I can't help but feel that a browser that allows you hit "back" and return to a page that did a POST to without prompting you to reload, is buggy.
Or at least breaking protocol.
moritz_ what kind of browsers do that? 12:42
jnthn Firefox was.
Well, does
IE doesn't.
moritz_ well, it does ask me
huf it usually asks you if you want to do it 12:43
might be a bug, firefox has a few of those i hear ;)
jnthn It was showing a cached copy of the page.
Why on earth it thought it was OK to cache a page resulting from a POST, I've no idea.
Ah well, issue worked around.
mathw ah yes it does sometimes from the cache when it realy shouldn't 12:44
jnthn Yeah.
It feels wrong-ish to me. 12:45
mathw fails to comprehend how to fix pblock
jnthn mathw: Looking.
mathw: eh, I think our pointy blocks just ain't very pointy at all. :-) 12:48
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jnthn mathw: I sorta need to feed myself a bit before I collapse. :-) 12:54
mathw: I'll have a crack at fixing pblock shorly.
*shortly
12:55 masak joined
masak good too-late-to-even-pretend-it's-morning, #perl6. 12:56
moritz_ rakudo: say "good {time}, masak" 12:57
p6eval rakudo f16c9e: good 1257943750.76453, masak␤
masak :) 12:58
Juerd rakudo: say date 12:59
;)
12:59 lisppaste3 left, lisppaste3 joined
moritz_ wonders why rakudo on p6eval's server is so abysimal slow 13:00
p6eval rakudo f16c9e: ( no output )
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Woodi should Configure.pm used for build be in project lib/ ? 13:08
masak aye. 13:11
as soon as mberends shows up next time, I'm going to ask him what he thinks about Configure.pm under the new installed-modules regime.
pugs_svn r29051 | pmurias++ | [mildew-js] load Failure.pm, t/fail.t passes 13:14
Woodi masak: building modules should be possible from cmd too.
pmichaud hello
masak Woodi: yes.
Woodi and just cleaned http-daemon. now looking into web and have de ja vu or something... 13:15
masak Woodi: I've always been a proponent of proto making things possible, but not making projects dependent on it.
pmichaud: \o
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Woodi hi :) 13:16
13:16 jnthn sets mode: +o pmichaud
pmichaud people are having issues with xblock/pblock...? 13:16
mathw pmichaud: yes
pblock appears to be the same as block
jnthn pmichaud: Our pblock isn't...pointy :-)
moritz_ pblock in ng doesn't match a pointy block
pmichaud right, I didn't add that in yet. 13:17
jnthn pmichaud: So we've been discovering. :-)
pmichaud but see the definition of pblock in nqp-rx for an example of what it should look like
masak people interested in new languages might want to check out the new Go language: developers.slashdot.org/story/09/11...g-Language
mathw pmichaud: I'll take a look
jnthn masak: Spent half an hour this morning glancing over that. :-) 13:18
moritz_ Go is an interesting mixture of really good and really bad ideas, IMHO
Woodi masak: perl-sqlit3 works ?
masak Woodi: to my knowledge, yes.
Su-Shee moritz_: "but it's from google!1!"
moritz_ the bad idea is that they don't have exceptions
masak moritz_: oh, that's too bad. :/
moritz_ and checking the return value of each function is so web 1.0
Woodi masak: it's just wrapper from parrot ? 13:19
mathw pmichaud: that looks far more comprehensible than the pblock in STD
moritz_ (actually it's pre-web 1.0)
masak Woodi: aye. but don't say "just". :)
pmichaud mathw: yes, I would suggest going with it to begin with
STD's pblock is a bit more complex because it's doing some advanced error handling. I totally agree with the error handling, but at this point it's more important to get correct functionality in pblock, I think; and I'm also hoping to find a slightly cleaner way to handle the errors. 13:20
Woodi masak: ok :) maybe there is wrapper for ncurses ?
moritz_ golang.org/doc/go_lang_faq.html#exceptions
pmichaud "Everything works in Go. No exception!"
masak Woodi: I've seen ncurses in Parrot, so at least it's possible.
pmichaud: :)
moritz_ basically they say "it didn't fit in our design, so we left it out"
pmichaud designs are much easier when you don't have to handle the exceptional cases. :) 13:21
mathw I've read a bit about Go this morning, as my dodgy internet has let me do so
I'm not convinced
jnthn I'm not fond of the declaration syntax for functions.
moritz_ their concurrency ideas sound interesting
jnthn De-values the name of the thing a bit. 13:22
moritz_ I'm curious if it works out well in practice
13:22 whooosh left
jnthn moritz_: Yes, that was what I found most interesting from it. 13:22
mathw pmichaud: I'm curious - pblock's action method in both NQP-rx and Rakudo-ng just does make $<blockoid>.ast. Shouldn't it be doing something with any pointiness it might have found? 13:23
pmichaud mathw: method signature will have already taken care of it
mathw ooh
cunning
okay
of course, my given statement is still missing something
pmichaud at least, that's the case in nqp-rx
mathw wonders if it's really actually using the new grammar 13:24
pmichaud I'm not sure what will be needed to fully handle the signature in Rakudo
might need a $*IN_DECL setting in pblock 13:25
oh, looks like not.
pblock's action method has to be a bit special, though, as it's the thing that has to handle $_ as an implicit parameter. 13:28
jnthn pmichaud: Ah, that belongs in pblock's action? OK...I was wondering where it was meant to go.
mathw still something wrong with the parsing of it here :(
every time it sees -> it gets confuesd
pmichaud mathw: we have to tell infix:sym<-> and prefix:sym<-> not to match there 13:29
mathw oh
pmichaud when we have full ltm with fate we won't have to do that, but at the moment we do
mathw okay
pmichaud (see nqp for examples of that also)
13:30 am0c left
pmichaud actually, that probably shouldn't be an issue here -- EXPR should be able to deal with it already, but possibly doesn't 13:31
mathw NQP doesn't have anything for infix:<-> on that
pmichaud well, try it just for prefix:sym<->
really it shouldn't happen at all, though
mathw ideally no
pmichaud but I think EXPR may have a bug in it
moritz_ std: sub x -> $x { } 13:32
mathw where is EXPR defined?
p6eval std 29051: ===SORRY!===␤Malformed block at /tmp/yM6jiysi55 line 1:␤------> sub x ⏏-> $x { }␤ expecting any of:␤ block␤ routine_def␤ terminator␤ trait␤FAILED 00:01 101m␤
pmichaud (I meant nqp-rx's EXPR, not STD's)
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mathw hmm that didn't seem to help 13:32
pmichaud mathw: okay, I'll take a closer look in just a minute
EXPR is in src/cheats/hll-grammar.pir
(in nqp-rx) 13:33
mathw I feel dreadful, I try to help out and I end up just finding more things for you and jnthn to fix
pmichaud oh, don't feel dreadful about that
I at least know that we still have a lot to fix :)
and I'm very glad you're trying to help out and learning in the process
masak mathw++ # dreadfully help1
s/1/ful!/
mathw What will be really learning is when I see what the fixes for this lot are
moritz_ std: sub x (-> $x ) { } 13:34
pmichaud it also (pardon the pun) points out what people find most interesting/useful/important at any (argh!) given time :)
p6eval std 29051: ===SORRY!===␤Malformed parameter at /tmp/K7BWGQHEnW line 1:␤------> sub x (⏏-> $x ) { }␤ expecting any of:␤ name␤ parameter␤ signature␤ whitespace␤FAILED 00:01 106m␤
mathw pmichaud: jnthn mentioned that he thought adding given/when/default might be something suitable for me to look at, it wasn't so much that I found it out myself
13:35 iblechbot left
pmichaud he probably didn't realize that pointies weren't done yet 13:35
mathw no I don't think he did
jnthn pmichaud: I thought they were, yes.
pmichaud or implicit $_, whichis needed for the non-pointy block :)
jnthn pmichaud: I remember some discussion we had about implicit $_ in ng a while back.
mathw it'll parse given 1 { say $_; }
but it just says 'Object()' at the moment
moritz_ can't read, and confused with -> with -->
jnthn pmichaud: And I'd kinda assumed that you'd done it at that point. :-) 13:36
pmichaud jnthn: no, I still hadn't figured out the parameter handling in ng yet
jnthn Ah.
mathw so I need to wait for someone clever to do pblock
and then I can continue
pmichaud I'll do pblock immediately after I write my informal hague grant report to the grants managers 13:37
(I'm trying to close out my grant this month)
jnthn pmichaud++ # ok, I'll leave that one for you. :-)
mathw :)
pmichaud++
pmichaud jnthn: I may need a bit of help on the $_ param 13:38
but let me get the rest in place first
jnthn pmichaud: Oh, that bit is probably not quite so bad.
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pmichaud jnthn: probably not -- I had a little difficulty following when I looked at it last week (but I was also extremely tired at the time) 13:41
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moritz_ didn't get any new emails for the last few hours, not even spam or mailing list mails, and wonders if his mail server is broken 13:50
pmichaud sends moritz' mail address to a spam bot to help him test his mail server. 13:51
moritz_ pmichaud: no problem if you receive the delivery failures :-) 13:52
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mberends shows up, ears burning 14:04
jnthn takes a fire extinguisher to mberends ears
pmichaud throws water onto mberends ears.
mberends wipes the excess moisture off with two towels 14:05
moritz_ joins the towel party
pmichaud Wasn't that a Tolkein novel... "The Two Towels"?
pmichaud thinks he misplaced a consonant. 14:06
mberends pmichaud: a toweletta
masak mberends: hiya, Hot Ears.
mberends masak: you'e the one who set fire to my ears!
masak mberends: I did? sorry about that... :/ 14:07
mberends forgiveness > permission
masak was it something I blogged? :)
jnthn
.oO( must never lend masak my blowtorch again )
mberends s/blogged/backlogged/
about Configure.pm, you threatened to bash my ears about that 14:08
PerlJam good morning
masak mberends: I'm pretty sure I didn't say it like that. :)
mberends: just wanted to discuss it, peacefully.
mberends must be my paranoia playing up again ;)
mberends gets peaceful 14:09
masak just because your ears aren't burning doesn't mean they're not out to bash 'em...
mberends yeah
masak: will you have time to plan installed-modules and Configure.pm this evening? 14:10
masak yes.
14:11 payload joined
moritz_ speaking of this evening... do we want a #perl6book meeting tonight? 14:11
masak does
moritz_ would you mind doing it a bit later than usual, 19:00 UTC?
(this question also goes to pmichaud, jnthn, PerlJam) 14:12
masak a bit later is fine by me.
mberends masak: good, any time after 18:00 UTC, gotta &work() now &
PerlJam 1900UTC is fine by me.
masak mberends: have the appropriate amound of fun! see you tonight!
jnthn books that time into his schedule
PerlJam jnthn: do you have punitis?
moritz_ sighs
14:13 moritz_ sets mode: +v jnthn
moritz_ our punbot :-) 14:13
14:13 whooosh joined
jnthn I'd like to voice my concern about this mode change... 14:14
;-)
obra_ 'morning 14:15
moritz_ hi obra_, what's up?
jnthn hi obra_
masak obra_: \o
PerlJam jnthn: I'm not sure if you're corny or campy today, but it's some c-word.
obra_ masak: me, barely
PerlJam crazy perhaps?
masak obra_: that was for moritz_, I presume. :) 14:16
moritz_ m<tab> :-)
masak obra_: welcome to the club of people who mis-tab on me and moritz_ :)
jnthn PerlJam: Putting var traits in tends to leave one that way. :-)
PerlJam :-)
moritz_ but mathw and masak are even worse, the mis-tab with two leading characters
masak oh, true.
obra_ masak: sorry about that :) 14:17
moritz_ one of you should .flip :-)
masak that's why I tend to throw a cat at mathw when I intend to say something. :)
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masak obra_: it's ok. :) 14:17
pmichaud later is much better than me 14:18
much better for me
(sorry, too many conversations again)
moritz_ 1900 UTC it is then
14:18 reid05 left
moritz_
.oO( pmichaud is a conversative :-)
 14:19
14:19 kidd` joined
moritz_ wow, that word actually exists 14:19
14:19 reid05 joined
moritz_ I just wanted to make a pun on conservative 14:19
masak moritz_: isn't 19:00 UTC the usual time?
masak confused 14:20
moritz_ didn't we have 18:30 UTC usually?
pmichaud 18:30 is parrotsketch
moritz_ or was that #ps?
masak yes.
pmichaud 19:00 is book
masak still fine by me, though.
just not later than usual. :P
pmichaud personally, I think there's just far too much Perl 6 activity taking place for a dead language. 14:21
moritz_ any starting time between 19H and 20H UTC is fine by me, then
masak pmichaud: well, a minimum of activity is needed, so we can change the name of the language everywhere. 14:23
pmichaud I've already done my bit: "Rakudo" :-)
masak also, don't worry, because it's all *academic* activity, which doesn't count. 14:24
PerlJam masak++
pmichaud Besides, I think we should give Perl 5 a name. "Classic Perl", perhaps. :-)
14:24 mj41 joined
pmichaud "Perl: The Original Series" 14:24
masak Vanilla Perl. oh wait. 14:25
pmichaud We have a winner!
PerlJam as long as we don't accidentally create the "New Perl" meme
jaffa4 Perl Reloaded.
masak "Perl 6: a New Deal"
pmichaud Perl Overloaded.
jaffa4 Revenge of The Perl.
pmichaud "I for one, welcome our new Perl overloads."
masak I, for one, welcome these new Perl 6 Overloads. 14:26
moritz_ Vanilla Perl and Stracciatella Perl!
masak dang, pmichaud is faster :)
jaffa4 Perl Squared.
PerlJam Perl to the Perl
Perl is dead. Long live Perl! (oh wait, we've already been there) 14:27
moritz_ I thought it wasn't dead after all :-)
jaffa4 Perl on a new horse.
pmichaud The Legend of the Black Perl. (Oh, wait)
masak Perl: Imerial Edition.
jaffa4 Perl Strikes back.
masak Perl: Second Coming. 14:28
jaffa4 Perl Renasaince.
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Woodi fells something will happen soon... 14:30
PerlJam something is always happening.
Woodi brainstormes usually have some/side effects :) 14:31
jnthn shows up with a patch for var traits, after an adventure involving making POST::Compiler recurse infinitely. Oops. 14:32
PerlJam looks at ng's Grammar.pm and Actions.pm for a few minutes 14:34
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colomon Is there a guide for mere mortals to build ng somewhere? 14:41
pmichaud At the moment, no.
It will become much simpler once nqp-rx is in Parrot.
Perhaps I should do that before working on pblock 14:42
so that more people can be building ng
moritz_ colomon: build parrot, install it. Build nqp-rx, install it (into the same location)
colomon: then configure ng, and build
masak not necessarily the same location. just configure nqp-rx to find parrot.
(with --parrot-config to Makefile.PL) 14:43
PerlJam colomon: perl Configure.pl --parrot-config=/path/to/parrot_config # very useful
moritz_ well, rakudo and nqp-rx should use the same parrot ;-)
PerlJam colomon: you use that same line for both nqp-rx and ng :)
jnthn pmichaud: ping 14:44
colomon danke, everyone. will try it now.
masak right, Configure.pl of course, not Makefile.PL
masak is behind the times :)
pmichaud jnthn: pong 14:45
jnthn pmichaud: I've got code-gen for variable traits working
pmichaud \o/
jnthn my $x of Int # now dispatches to the right place
Anyway, my Int $x should really do the same thing.
My first thought was "well fine, just build us an AST that we can tweak" 14:46
But now I'm looking at it and thinking "gah, we parse a multi_declarator, and thus a declarator, after this"
PerlJam colomon: make sure your parrot revision is the same as in rakudo/build/PARROT_REVISION if you're not using the --gen-parrot option to Configure.pl
jnthn And wondering if we really want to be capturing <typename>+ into some contextuval
*contextual
colomon PerlJam: I'm too lazy to do anything other than --gen-parrot. :) 14:47
jnthn So the nested decls can use them.
pmichaud does STD.pm do that?
jnthn pmichaud: No, it doesn't.
masak jnthn: contextuval = contextual + nothingmuch :)
pmichaud (in general I'm not happy with the multi_declarator/declarator sequence of rules in STD.pm)
14:47 kst left
PerlJam masak: heh, I was thinking the same thing :) 14:47
jnthn pmichaud: Wait, does STD do which bit?
14:47 kst joined
pmichaud does STD provide a contextual for traits 14:47
er, <typename>+ 14:48
jnthn pmichaud: No
pmichaud: I can do it either way I guess.
I'm just looking at the code I'm about to write and thinking "oh gee, this is going to look horrible by the time we're done"
PerlJam colomon: I don't know that nqp-rx and ng keep build/PARROT_REVISION in sync. You'll want to use the parrot revision that Rakudo expects though, I think
pmichaud rakudo's PARROT_REVISION is generally more up to date 14:49
jnthn Because the type name there could be any of...
* Variable declarator
* Bunch of variables declared through a variable declarator
masak wohoo! suddenly 'make test' on the ng branch looks much better!
Woodi colomon: you can use ready Makefile for build parrot and rakudo, perl.lunski.pl/perl6/spi/
jnthn * Routine or some kind, but we don't actually pass that back up the tree anyway, we emit code to install it somewhere
*of
pmichaud: It just gets massively neater if the individual actions have the typename available. 14:50
Well, the match node and thus ast of...
Woodi do rakudo soon need to build nqp-ng ?
pmichaud jnthn: yeah, I know what you mean. That whole section of declarators feels like it wants a refactor somehow.
jnthn: anyway, go with whatever seems cleanest or best to you
jnthn I mena, for now in scoped I can look for PAST::Var, but I know that in a day or two, I'm just going to he tearing my hair out over this. :-) 14:51
std: my Int $x of Str;
p6eval std 29051: ok 00:01 103m␤ 14:52
jnthn heh
Well, guess semantic check.
pmichaud maybe that's really the same as "my $x of Int of Str"
jnthn pmichaud: Yeah, it would be.
oh
wait
jnthn ponders how that associates
PerlJam std: my $x of Int of Str 14:53
p6eval std 29051: ok 00:01 101m␤
jnthn Is that of Str going as a trait mod on $x?
14:53 whooosh left
jnthn e.g. if I wrote my $x of List of Book 14:53
PerlJam std: my $x of Int of Str of Int of Str
p6eval std 29051: ok 00:01 101m␤
jnthn Then that's parametric like List[Book], iirc. 14:54
pmichaud jnthn: correct
jnthn So no, it's not quite the same. :-)
pmichaud so I'd take my Int $x of Str to be parametric like Int[Str]
which doesn't make sense for Int
but
jnthn Oh?
Hmm. And ouch.
pmichaud my List $x of Str would be List[Str]
that would be my expectation at least, based on present knowledge. 14:55
jnthn groans
Yeah, I guess that can be made to work. :-)
pmichaud I'm not sure that's actually correct.
jnthn Me either.
It sure isn't what current Rakudo does.
I suspect current Rakudo silently discards one of the types. 14:56
pmichaud in that sense, the <typename>+ should really end up being the equivalent-ish of an "of Type" trait
jnthn Which is of course wrong too.
Well, we compile it (even in master) to a trait dispatch, yes.
The question is just about its relationship with any other "of Type" trait.
pmichaud whatever currently handles the trait dispatch in (variable_declarator?) should probably have some way of seeing "oh, there was also a typename trait, add that as well)
jnthn Well, I was just going to push a call to trait_mod:<of> onto the traits list for the variable. 14:57
pmichaud wfm
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jnthn Yes, but it won't quite work, because we need to "merge" the two. 14:57
pmichaud thus my comment
whatever does the "normal" "of XYZ" handling should probably be made smart enough to also see the traits supplied by <typename>+ 14:58
jnthn *nod*
Sure, I can do that. It's just a bit magical. :-) 14:59
pmichaud i.e., basically treat my Int $x as syntactic sugar for my $x of Int
jnthn Sure, I have been - I just hadn't been handling the merging up until now.
pmichaud okay
PerlJam where does the implementation type go?
pmichaud that's an "is" trait 15:00
my $x is Scalar of Int of ....
I'm not sure we handle that yet. Basically the implementation type is implied by the sigil if not explicitly given.
jnthn No, we've never handled that yet. 15:01
pmichaud shouldn't be too difficult when we get to it :)
moritz_ 1) spec it properly 2) test it 3) implement it 4) ... 5) profit! 15:02
of course they are partially parallelizable :-) 15:03
masak I still don't grok what a Scalar is.
15:03 KyleHa joined
pmichaud It's a container 15:03
15:03 kst left
pmichaud just like Array and Hash are containers 15:03
masak kind of a one-element array?
pmichaud yeah
masak ok.
pmichaud it's basically the least restrictive form of container
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Wolfman2000 masak: The way my luck has been with Catalyst, DBIC, and Mysql last night...I think a part of me wants Web.pm to be closer to done so that I can actually have a pastebin on Perl 6 written in Perl 6 15:06
PerlJam where is it specced that "of Foo of Bar" is the same as "Foo[Bar]" ?
masak Wolfman2000: that's what I'm aiming for.
Wolfman2000: maybe I'll spend some time on it today.
jnthn PerlJam: Probably S14. 15:07
Wolfman2000 masak: I would...rather not explain the hurdles I failed to get over. But I need to anyway for context.
masak yes, please.
Wolfman2000 masak: However you plan on handling database joins...make them consistent, and make them WORK.
PerlJam jnthn: ah, thanks.
jnthn =head2 Relationship Between of And Types 15:08
masak Wolfman2000: what prompted the need for joins in a pastebin?
PerlJam yeah, reading now :)
Wolfman2000 masak: the pastebin I'm designing allows for registering, tags, annotations/grouping.
Each key part requires a separate table.
masak Wolfman2000: oh, cool!
I didn't plan to be that ambitious on the first go. 15:09
Wolfman2000 masak: Only reason I'm trying to be this ambitious...well, www.pumpproedits.com <-- I made that. Granted, that's in Python/Pylons, but we're talking similar complexity.
Actually, should be less complex, but...well, that website was in Pylons and Postgresql, while I'm trying Catalyst and I'm stuck with Mysql. 15:10
colomon Two of the "make test" tests failed on my ng build, is that expected at the moment?
jnthn colomon: yes
PerlJam only 2? ;) 15:11
moritz_ test, not spectest
PerlJam still.
colomon PerlJam: make spectest is failing gloriously at the moment. :)
moritz_ it should pass about 90 tests (not files, single tests) 15:12
jnthn Glorious fail!
masak Wolfman2000: I think I'm drifting over to the TDD/release-early camp more and more. that's why I'm surprised your adding everything at the outset. YMMV. use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39483
KyleHa Does it run the spectests? 15:13
moritz_ yes
KyleHa Far out. That's progress!
Wolfman2000 masak: ...The Cult of Dome? Sorry, I can't say I'm understanding it.
pmichaud fsvo "run" :)
masak Wolfman2000: not 'dome', 'done'. :) 15:14
moritz_ for "run" as in "fail" :-)
jnthn We can run the spectests in the sense that I can run a marathon.
It'll be quite some work before a successful running. :-)
Wolfman2000 masak: ah. I'll give it another read later: right now taking care of another assignment, non perl related I'm afraid. 15:15
KyleHa Well, I didn't think it PASSED the spectests, but I'm impressed that it's up to running them. 15:17
lisppaste3 moritz_ pasted "passing spectests in ng branch" at paste.lisp.org/display/90175 15:18
KyleHa Seven whole files!
jnthn Wow.
moritz_ this reminds me of the good old days when I used to run 'make spectest' (which is now spectest_all or so) to see if any new tests would pass 15:19
and submit patches to spectest.data
(what is now spectest was called spectest_regression or so)
KyleHa Sounds like fun.
15:20 Psyche^ joined
moritz_ now tools/update_passing_tests_data.pl does the same, with much less noise and more information 15:20
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moritz_ masak: that could the kind of style question you're interested in: www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=806515 15:30
15:31 jaldhar joined
masak moritz_: it is indeed. thanks. 15:31
japhb Woodi: Plumage will be the default installer for anything on parrot (language, library, whatever). Of course languages are welcome to port their own "native" installers, but they need not do so. 15:32
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KyleHa I'm running that tools/update_passing_test_data.pl now. I'm surprised by how much it says works (in 'master'). Has this not been done in a while, or does it not work the way it used to, or am I not reading the results right? 15:36
jnthn pmichaud: OK, the only thing I think is left in the typed variables (not attributes) thing now is filling out the trait_mod. 15:38
moritz_ KyleHa: it seems to have problems with files marked with #icu
pmichaud jnthn++
KyleHa Intensive Care Unit?
jnthn pmichaud: Any requests for "what next"?
moritz_ KyleHa: and reports them even though they are in t/spectest.data already
KyleHa: unicode library
pmichaud I think I'll do pblock, then work on nqp-in-parrot
15:38 kst left
KyleHa Oh, I see. 15:39
pmichaud jnthn: no requests that I can think of at the moment
jnthn 'k
pmichaud I haven't even tried running "make spectest" yet to see the fireworks :)
15:39 kst joined, pmurias joined
jnthn pmichaud: Expect glorious fail. 15:39
15:39 jaldhar left
moritz_ KyleHa: also some test files run all tests, and pass some of them, but there's no point putting them in t/spectest.data because they simply don't implement that feature yet 15:40
for example there's an LTM test
masak moritz_: I put in a reply: www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=806515
moritz_ which rakudo runs, and it passes some sanity tests in there
KyleHa: but if you find some low-hanging fruits for fudging and inclusion, feel free :-) 15:41
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pmurias masak: does a lot of people actually want to keep the parenthesis in if's? 15:43
masak pmurias: maybe not a lot. but a vocal minority.
pmurias i find it similiar to wanting to unpack @_ manually
KyleHa If minorities weren't vocal, you'd never hear from them. 15:44
masak pmurias: believe it or not, there are proponents for the mutating sigils in Perl 5 as well. :)
pmurias mutating sigils actually have some sense 15:45
masak they do.
pmurias extra parens in ifs are just extra cruft
moritz_ they are needed for Perl 5's context model
masak moritz_: that sounds like material for a blog post.
moritz_: along with how Perl 6 does without them. 15:46
pmurias you could add extra parens everywhere (but you might just switch to lisp)
moritz_ (the mutating sigils, not the parens)
masak: nice idea, yes
15:47 justatheory joined
masak moritz_: it's all yours. :) 15:47
KyleHa Is t/spec/S32-trig/trig.t obsoleted by all the other trig tests? 15:52
moritz_ we should ask colomon 15:53
15:54 kidd` left
pmurias perl6: say (do {if 0 {}}).perl 15:56
p6eval elf 29051, pugs: undef␤
..rakudo f16c9e: 0␤
pmurias is rakudo right here?
moritz_ no
IMHO it should really be Nil
pmurias Nil? 15:57
dalek kudo: a02a26e | (Kyle Hasselbacher)++ | tools/update_passing_test_data.pl:
tools/update_passing_test_data.pl: ignore spectest.data comments better
moritz_ the thing that's an empty list in list context, and undef in scalar context
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KyleHa What's bitwise negation in Perl 6 (that is, prefix ~ in Perl 5)? 16:02
16:02 kst left 16:03 hudnix left
moritz_ rakudo: say +! 4 16:03
p6eval rakudo f16c9e: 0␤
16:03 kst joined
moritz_ rakudo: say +^ 4 16:03
p6eval rakudo f16c9e: -5␤
moritz_ that's it
rakudo: say ~^ 4
p6eval rakudo f16c9e: 0 1 2 3␤
Woodi masak: ping
moritz_ erm
masak Woodi: pong
KyleHa Hmmm. In Perl 5, I get 'say ~0' as a huge number, but in Perl 6, 'say +^ 0' is -1. 16:04
Woodi masak: Squerel isn't part of Web ?
16:04 jaldhar joined
PerlJam rakudo: say ~^4 16:04
p6eval rakudo f16c9e: 0 1 2 3␤
PerlJam heh, that's a rakudo bug
(maybe) 16:05
rakudo: say ~^~4
p6eval rakudo f16c9e: 0 1 2 3␤
PerlJam no, definitely
masak Woodi: it is, currently. 16:06
Woodi: though the relation 'part of Web.pm' is a bit problematic, and has never been wholly nailed down.
Woodi: I consider Web.pm as a sort of incubator for projects that will be needed for web-related modules.
Woodi masak: k 16:07
16:08 kst left, kst joined
pmichaud pointy blocks should now "work" in ng, for various values of "work" 16:12
16:12 kst left
pmichaud we still don't handled implicit $_ yet 16:12
*handle
16:13 kst joined
pmichaud afk, lunch 16:13
16:16 alester joined
alester Where's my backup admins at? twitter.com/clonezone/status/5622151808 16:17
16:17 kst left, kst joined
PerlJam wasn't aware that there were any backup admins for rakudo.org 16:18
KyleHa We have backups? 16:19
Woodi masak: may I move Test.pm and Configure.pm from web/lib into somewhere else ? web/tools or web/plib ?
moritz_ I think I've mentioned that a few times here on the channel
masak Woodi: oh dear, is there a Test.pm still in there? :/
Woodi: what is it you're doing, by the way? packaging something? 16:20
Woodi making moduless are possible to build...
16:21 payload left
Woodi and make way to put make install into modules... 16:21
16:21 kst left, mariuz left, kst joined
moritz_ that's what the installed-module branch in proto aims at 16:22
Woodi it is root of all evil...
16:23 mariuz joined
Woodi it makes installation code not required... 16:23
so no way to install
assume you have /usr/lib/perl6 for modules... 16:24
moritz_ the branch I'm talking about doesn't
Woodi none of modules is possible to install... ENOTSEEYET
moritz_: branch cannot do magic if module do not designate what .pm files belong to module... 16:25
moritz_ Woodi: right, but that can be declarative 16:26
Woodi not at the moment...
i think module/lib should be only for important modules, not build tools... 16:27
maybe plib for private module libraries ? 16:28
moritz_ some Perl 5 modules use 'inc' for build tools, iirc 16:29
Woodi works for me 16:30
[particle] inc/Module/Install.pm
moritz_ that's what I meant, [particle]++
Woodi and blib is ?
PerlJam Woodi: staging area for installation "build lib" or somesuch 16:31
Woodi so install copies from blib ?
[particle] it's the install tree
files are copied to blib (the install tree), and testing is performed from there 16:32
masak I don't know why, but every time I think of questions related to 'what proto should do', a great weakness comes upon me.
[particle] that way, you're testing things as they will be installed, not as they are in source
Woodi good for packaging too (tgz, etc)
masak: proto_project_dir can be good for versioning 16:33
masak Woodi: versioning? please, please do not make proto handle versions. make something that works instead. 16:34
Woodi masak: except it should be downloading directory imo...
masak cf. pigs, lipstick, etc.
16:34 cotto_work joined
[particle] mmm, pork. 16:34
Woodi masak: why ? :)
masak Woodi: because we deserve something that works.
moritz_ masak: I've written the blog post now... will be published in a week :-) 16:35
masak and proto isn't it.
moritz_: :)
moritz_ so that I can stay in the ironman competition a bit longer :-)
Woodi masak: 1. name is superb; 2. proto works - ppls use it atm
moritz_ fsvo "works"? 16:36
Woodi masak: and i just removed perl6 installing things from proto and started (after month) working to me too
masak Woodi: I know. see use.perl.org/~masak/journal/38876
Woodi masak: but then i had stuck with modules "design"... 16:37
PerlJam masak: proto may be a victim of its own success relative to Woodi :)
masak PerlJam: frothing at the mouth and mumblings of 'Austria' are early symptoms.
pugs_svn r29052 | kyle++ | [t/spec] fudge S04-phasers/in-eval
Woodi the most successful Perl 6 installer of the decade is true as 100% :) 16:38
masak I rest my case.
PerlJam he
heh even 16:39
Wolfman2000 moritz_: thanks for installing DateTime::Format::MySQL. I'll mess with it once I actually get the initial query I'm trying to do to work. 16:41
Woodi masak: so i will move config.pm and test.pm from lib to inc and add inc to perl6lib, k ? 16:42
masak Woodi: I have no idea whether that is 'k' or not. :/
Woodi o(k) ?
masak I don't feel I have an overview of the problem landscape.
alester No, we don't have backup admins, but last time there was something b0rken on rakudo.org, there was much hue and cry over the need for them.
16:43 NorwayGeek_ joined
Woodi backups ? was looking on github in perl projects and rakudo was: moust forked thing :) 16:43
moritz_ alester: it's an old problem, and the cries have long since faded 16:44
(the RSS feed thing)
alester I figured.
16:44 jaldhar left
PerlJam alester: Well ... make me an admin and i'll fix broken things if I can when I can. 16:44
pugs_svn r29053 | pmurias++ | [mildew-js] empty blocks have a value (TODO make it Nil) 16:45
r29054 | pmurias++ | [mildew-js] added t/dollar_bang.t to TESTS-js
masak someone complained about rakudo.org's feed today on Twitter: twitter.com/clonezone/status/5622151808
PerlJam deja vu
16:46 mariuz left
Woodi re-mildew Perl6 compiler need a lot of Perl5 Moose to install... 16:47
pmurias Woodi: you mean re-mildew needs Moose, yes
Woodi a lot, a lot of keypressing in -e CPAN :) 16:48
16:48 jaldhar joined
pmurias Woodi: i think it's possible to make CPAN install stuff without asking 16:48
Woodi hmm, to late... 16:49
what module Mouse do ? :)
pmurias Woodi: by the way, installing {mildew-js,re-mildew} is a bit rough so if have problems ask
Woodi: Moose without meta stuff
Woodi oki
PerlJam Woodi: Mouse is a tiny Moose 16:50
Woodi but re-mildew emits plain old C ?
KyleHa Is there a way for me to determine from Rakudo whether my CPU is 32 bit or 64 bit?
moritz_ KyleHa: probably over %*VM<config>
KyleHa More to the point, I want to know when an int will overflow.
jaffa4 what is *? 16:51
PerlJam jaffa4: contextual
moritz_ an asterisk
pmurias re-mildew it emits C but it needs SMOP for the runtime to work
PerlJam jaffa4: assuming you're referring to %*VM<config>
Woodi to link ?
jaffa4 contextual? yes,.
pmurias Woodi: yes
jaffa4 How does that differ from local or global declaration?
moritz_ it's lexotic :-) 16:52
Woodi pmurias: let modules install and make all works then i see what happens :)
PerlJam moritz_: heh, you were reading my mind (I was trying hard not to say that :)
16:53 oZ] joined
KyleHa Would it be bad for spectests to use some Perl 5? 16:53
moritz_ it should be avoided whenever possible 16:54
pmurias Woodi: re-mildew doesn't support much features yet, i'm working on mildew-js now (which is a javascript backend for re-mildew) and features re-mildew after it passes the re-mildew tests
KyleHa Yeah, that was my thought too.
pmurias KyleHa: how do you want o use Perl 5?
16:54 NorwayGeek left
KyleHa pmurias: I want to get its value of '~0'. 8-) 16:54
pmurias the only place where using Perl 5 is acceptable is in perl5 interop tests 16:55
KyleHa I see S03-operators/overflow.t works for me, but that may be because it's aimed at 32 bit procs, and I have a 64 bit proc.
Woodi pmurias: but it is one language more in chain p6->js->c...
masak & 16:56
pmurias Woodi: yes, but js can run in browsers 16:57
Woodi pmurias: how many MB m-js is now ? :) 16:58
16:58 oZ] left, oZ] joined
pmurias Woodi: you mean how big is the source code? 16:59
jaffa4 How does that differ from local or global declaration?
Woodi pmurias: no, compiler compiled to js
pmurias it's not yet bootstraped 17:00
Woodi i do not expect something comparable to css, but.... realy no idea what to think...
pmurias css = ? 17:01
Woodi pmurias: but what should be expected ? mean: for what can be used, if big then not for plain www users...
moritz_ jaffa4: read r29049 of the pugs repo, it explains that in great detail
Woodi p6 compiler should weight more then cascade style sheets... 17:02
or for server side usage ?
pmurias you would compile p6 to js on the server and if you don't use eval the user doesn't have to download the compiler 17:03
just compiled code + runtime 17:04
Woodi super. but it implies i have no idea how big picture looks like :)
TimToady pmurias: regarding if 0 {} returning Nil, see S04:197 and S04:266 17:05
pmurias you compile p6 code with mildew-js to js and the the user downloads the js
TimToady this was an explicit change from P5 so that we could write list comprehensions without special syntax 17:06
pmichaud back from lunch
dalek kudo: 50e495b | (Kyle Hasselbacher)++ | t/spectest.data:
[spectest.data] add a couple runnable files
Woodi pmurias: ah, that explains everything :)
jnthn pmichaud: w/b. I'm finally gearing up to put parametric roles back. 17:07
pmurias TimToady: thanks
jaffa4 I see
pmurias the actuall problematic case was if 1 {}
TimToady: does if 1 {} return 1 or Nil? 17:08
TimToady KyleHa: the difference on bitwise complement between p5 and p6 results from the fact that p6's Int is reallly BigInt, so if we do unsigned complement we end up with Inf 17:09
KyleHa Aha.
TimToady so signed complement seems more useful
pmurias: it returns Nil too
17:09 cdarroch joined 17:10 masak left
pugs_svn r29055 | pmurias++ | [S04] clarify the return value of {} 17:13
pmurias TimToady: forgive me if i'm wrong ;)
Wolfman2000 phenny: tell Juerd Sorry to make another request, but mysql is causing too many problems for me. Any chance of installing postgresql, or will I have to adapt to using SQLite instead? 17:14
phenny Wolfman2000: I'll pass that on when Juerd is around.
TimToady pmurias: well, I'll just have forgive you for the editing collision :)
colomon KyleHa: trig.t is officially obsolete. I think I told rakudo not to run it? 17:15
KyleHa Yes, it doesn't run, but it's still in the pugs repo. Can it go away completely, or is there something in there we need? 17:16
colomon As far as I know it can go away completely, I was just paranoid about making it so. 17:17
I suppose it will still be hiding in svn history anyway... 17:18
pugs_svn r29056 | lwall++ | [S04] clarify Nil semantics of empty blocks and missing branches, pmurias++
KyleHa Yes.
Thanks, colomon++
colomon Want me to get rid of it?
KyleHa If you don't, I will. 17:19
colomon I'll take it.
pugs_svn r29057 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Delete dead trig.t tests. 17:20
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colomon KyleHa++ # for appropriate prodding 17:22
17:22 jaldhar left
TimToady moritz_: context vars aren't precisely lexotic, but they are dynlexic. 17:24
lexotic is specifically about preferring the lexical search over the dynamic search
and context vars are purely dynamic search, albeit into lexpads 17:25
colomon is wondering what percentage of the sentences of #perl6 would have been meaningless gibberish just the week before...
moritz_ colomon: aren't the still? ;-)
TimToady: got it, thanks 17:26
s/the/they/
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cognominal TimToady is clearly a lexomane 17:27
moritz_ not a dynlexomane? ;-)
pugs_svn r29058 | kyle++ | [t/spec] refudge S10-packages/basic. One more pass since parrot rev bump
cognominal ...and a syno maniac too, probably what perl is sinful chinese to many 17:29
TimToady 哈哈 17:33
I guess a laugh/yawn is something that "fits in your mouth" 17:34
and makes a "ha" sound 17:37
cognominal anyway, with OO in Perl 6, TimToady is a role model 17:41
TimToady you're pretty classy yourself 17:42
jnthn You both have your good attributes. :-)
pmichaud wonders if he is a Failure, albeit a very interesting one. :-)
[particle] if you both introspect, i think you'll find you're not objective enough
TimToady is picturing Introspector Clouseau 17:44
"Cato, what have you done to my brain?"
mb 17:45
17:46 mberends left, TimToady sets mode: +vv dalek hugme, TimToady sets mode: +vvvv ilbot2 ilogger2 IRSeekBot lambdabot, TimToady sets mode: +vvvv lisppaste3 mubot p6eval phenny, TimToady sets mode: +vvv pointme pugs_svn zaslon
[particle] v++ 17:49
KyleHa smolder.plusthree.com not feeling well today? 17:51
jnthn finally finds and catches the irritating buzzy insect that's been distracting him on and off all afternoon
TimToady debugging, eh?
jnthn *groan* 17:52
PerlJam jnthn: come on! That was *much* better than some of your earlier puns. :)
jnthn It was an admiring groan. :-) 17:53
TimToady
.oO(it wasn't that good...)
 17:56
17:57 payload joined 17:58 NorwayGeek_ is now known as NorwayGeek
TimToady y'know, the bug metaphor isn't very good. with a meatspace bug, it's more efficient to just let it bite you and fly away again. 17:58
unlike with a computer bug, that keeps biting over and over
well, assuming you don't get malaria, which isn't very efficient either, except in the way that it is... 17:59
moritz_ oh, I've been bitten by some meatspace bugs multiple times 18:00
TimToady well, fleas are special
Woodi TimToady: any ideas about filesystem layout for versioned modules ? or it should be db or git or ... ? 18:06
18:09 stephenlb joined 18:11 explorer left
pugs_svn r29059 | kyle++ | [t/spec] move a test that passed only because previous test autovivified 18:20
18:22 payload left
pmichaud decides he really ought to write an article about how modules aren't likely to be tied to a filesystem. Except he doesn't want to touch that tarbaby. 18:23
jnthn -> store, bbs 18:24
pmichaud ugh, requiring default values to be in their own blocks is making $_ a pain 18:28
Wolfman2000 brb/afk 18:31
18:32 Wolfman2000 left
pmichaud jnthn: ping (when you get back) 18:35
18:42 fax left
dalek ok: 30057bc | masak++ | src/basics.pod:
[basics] more minor fixes
 18:43
ok: a6cee3d | masak++ | :
Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/book

src/basics.pod
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jnthn pmichaud: pong, I'm back 18:52
pmichaud I'm a little concerned about handling $_ as a default parameter
jnthn (just unpacking shopping, but go ahead) 18:53
pmichaud a bare pblock is generally equivalent to <-> $_ is ref = OUTER::<$_> { ... }
(perhaps not 'is ref', not relevant to this discussion) 18:54
but since default parameters are now always required to be Parrot subs, we're likely to end up with a *lot* of Parrot subs that do nothing but look up two outer scopes for $_
jnthn pmichaud: Right. It did run through my mind earlier that this may be an issue for us. 18:55
If nothing against an extra flag we set on the signature, that the binder recognizes and handles specially.
"default from outer" or something.
pmichaud since this is extremely common, I think I'd prefer that. 18:56
jnthn Yeah.
Same.
pmichaud let me test and check in what I have now
the code that generates the default $_ is at line 128
you can switch it to whatever you decide for the binder
test succeeded. 18:57
jnthn pmichaud: You just create a Parameter object, followed by a Signature?
pmichaud signature, followed by parameter, but yeah.
jnthn oh, yes
OK, cool
pmichaud it's pretty obvious how it works when you see it
jnthn I can probably have this together Real Quick.
pmichaud I suspect you can :-) 18:58
just a "bind from outer" flag that binds the variable to its equivalent outer would be excellent
jnthn Right.
pmichaud er, default from outer
whatever
jnthn I'll just put it as a generic flag.
If there's anything else that needs it, it'll be there. :-)
(And if not, it's all guts.) 18:59
18:59 seanstickle joined
pmichaud pushed. 18:59
jnthn (that is, not exposed leakily)
oh, maybe apart from introspection...
18:59 seanstickle left
jnthn can solve that if we need to. 18:59
dalek ok: 25e3c18 | masak++ | src/classes-and-objects.pod:
[OO] added three questions

to have exercises), or they could perhaps be incorporated in the text itself. I plan to write full answers to these three questions as well.		 19:00
pmichaud hugme tweet rakudoperl rakudo-ng now has pointy blocks again 19:02
hugme hugs pmichaud; tweet delivered
jnthn oh no!!! 19:03
when I went to the store, I forgot to buy beer. :-/
19:03 cdarroch left
[particle] hugme: hug jonathan 19:03
hugme hugs jonathan
jnthn :-)
Eh, it's open for another 2 hours...
pmichaud watches as rakudo development grinds to a complete stop.
Q: "Why did Rakudo fail?" A: "Insufficient beer." 19:04
[particle] EBEERRUN
KyleHa has a new respect for the pugs/VICTUALS file. 19:05
pmichaud I'm not sure which concerns me more -- the fact that jonathan is running short of beer, or the fact that he went to the store AND FORGOT TO BUY BEER.
:) 19:06
KyleHa I have a dream that someday, I too might consume something worthy of inclusion in VICTUALS.
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dalek ok: 5a61748 | masak++ | src/classes-and-objects.pod:
[OO] added answer to the first question
 19:18
Wolfman2000 ...okay, I think I'm doing a little better. These past few days have been slightly stressful. 19:22
19:22 SmokeMachine joined, masak joined
Wolfman2000 masak: I am starting to not like Catalyst. or MySQL. 19:25
masak Wolfman2000: sorry to hear that.
Wolfman2000 mysql--; postgresql++; sqlite++;
@karma mysql 19:26
...the bot's not here? BAH
moritz_ zaslon: karma mysql 19:27
zaslon Sorry, I don't understand that command
KyleHa Pg > MySQL
moritz_ mubot: karma mysql
mubot mysql has a karma of -1
moritz_ mubot: karma postgresql
mubot postgresql has a karma of 1
Wolfman2000 ...hold on a second...one of my scripts is acting up.
19:27 cdarroch joined
Wolfman2000 moritz_++: thanks. 19:28
masak: What are your thoughts of sqlite anyway? 19:34
19:34 NorwayGeek_ joined
masak Wolfman2000: that it's what currently works with Web.pm :) 19:35
Wolfman2000 If nothing else, SQLite does seem like a good fallback. But...is it a good primary? 19:36
PerlJam fallback? 19:37
Wolfman2000 ...great: I've angered a fan.
PerlJam not at all
Su-Shee I like sqlite very much. small, fast, convenient. great project.
moritz_ Wolfman2000: sqlite is very good, unless you have lots of concurrent accesses 19:38
PerlJam sqlite is great if you need a self-contained RDBMS with a small set of tables with a small amount of data in them. :)
(where you get to pick what "small" means here)
Su-Shee PerlJam: though small is relative relative ;)
Wolfman2000 PerlJam: ...you just answered my question.
Su-Shee no, he didn't really. 19:39
Wolfman2000 I'm debating chucking the mysql database that I have planned for the Perl 6 Pastebin I'm making and using sqlite instead. It will probably work better with DBIC and Catalyst.
Su-Shee for the average joe web developer and website and minor shops, sqlite would be a great choice.
Wolfman2000 masak: If I run into further trouble, I'll probably find a way to email you the schema I made.
Su-Shee: You can't read my mind. 19:40
masak Wolfman2000: oki.
Su-Shee Wolfman2000: ah well whatever. use what you want. none of my business anyway. 19:41
19:41 cognominal joined
Wolfman2000 Su-Shee: I'm thinking of sqlite. I'm not expecting postgresql to be installed on feather...that, and I probably will need to learn how to work with sqlite at some point anyway. 19:42
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TimToady wow 19:50
Wolfman2000 TimToady: surprised at the split? 19:52
TimToady just surprised it recovered so well :)
dalek ok: 5992bee | masak++ | src/classes-and-objects.pod:
[OO] added answer to the second question
 19:53
21:29 xenoterracide left 23:19 masak left

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