»ö« | perl6.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, alpha:, pugs:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by lichtkind on 5 March 2010.
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spinclad rakudo: grammar g { rule TOP { a { say $\; make "b"} }; }; say g.parse("a").ast 00:53
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«Unsupported use of $\ variable; in Perl 6 please use the filehandle's :ors attribute at line 11, near "; make \"b\""␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 501 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:327)␤»
spinclad rakudo: grammar g { rule TOP { a { say $/; make "b"} }; }; say g.parse("a").ast
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«a␤␤»
spinclad rakudo: grammar g { rule TOP { a { say $/; make "b"; say $/.ast } }; }; say g.parse("a").ast 00:54
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«a␤b␤␤»
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spinclad rakudo: grammar g { rule TOP { a }; }; class a { method TOP($/) { say $/; make "b"; say $/.ast }; }; say g.parse("a").ast 00:55
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«␤»
spinclad rakudo: grammar g { rule TOP { a }; }; class a { method TOP($/) { say $/; make "b"; say $/.ast }; }; say g.parse("a", :actions(a)).ast 00:56
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«a␤b␤b␤»
spinclad so in { } in a rule, it gets $/ but doesn't seem to actually set its .ast; in :actions, it gets $/ and does set its .ast. 00:58
should the first work, then?
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spinclad afk -> dinner 00:59
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colomon rakudo: say q{hello} 01:46
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«hello␤»
colomon rakudo: my $a = "hello"; say q{$a world} 01:47
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«$a world␤»
colomon rakudo: my $a = "hello"; say qq{$a world}
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«hello world␤»
sjohnson yo dudes
colomon o/ 01:48
sjohnson hi colomon, how's life? 01:49
colomon pretty good, eh?
how are things with you?
sjohnson not bad. i did some *gasp* PHP work that i am proud of
(we chose to use PHP at work about 6 years ago, long before I knew perl :[
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sjohnson Perl and PHP are the main stuff we use at work 01:50
and often i find myself "outsourcing" many parsing jobs to a something.pl script 01:51
colomon :)
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eternaleye rakudo: grammar g { rule TOP { a } } class g { method TOP($/) { make "b" } } say g.parse("a").ast 02:41
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "grammar g "␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 501 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:327)␤»
eternaleye rakudo: grammar g { rule TOP { a } }; class g { method TOP($/) { make "b" } } say g.parse("a").ast
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«Illegal redeclaration of symbol 'g'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6;Grammar;_block257' pc 42723 (src/gen/perl6-grammar.pir:272)␤»
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lue ohai 03:02
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lue echo $greeting 03:36
agentzh lue: this is also a perfectly valid nginx.conf statement now ;)
agentzh imagines a day when he can write full-fledged perl 6 code in nginx.conf directly. 03:39
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jhuni rakudo: say [~] [xx] [xx] (2, 4) 05:46
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«2 2 2 22 2 2 2␤»
jhuni rakudo: say [~] ( 2 xx 2 xx 2 xx 2 ) 05:47
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«22222222␤»
jhuni confused 05:48
rakudo: say [~] ( ((2 xx 2) xx 2) xx 2 ) 05:52
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«22222222␤»
eternaleye rakudo: say [~] ( \((2 xx 2) xx 2) xx 2 ) 05:58
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«Capture()<0x4056fc0>Capture()<0x4056fc0>␤»
eternaleye rakudo: say [~] ( [(2 xx 2) xx 2] xx 2 ) 05:59
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«2 2 2 22 2 2 2␤»
eternaleye jhuni: It looks like it's not flattening correctly. If I remember correctly, a bug has already been filed for that.
rakudo: .say for [\+] ([\+] (1..*)).batch(32) # From the same concept as triangular numbers... Tetrahedral numbers! 06:01
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«1␤4␤10␤20␤35␤56␤84␤120␤165␤220␤286␤364␤455␤560␤680␤816␤969␤1140␤1330␤1540␤1771␤2024␤2300␤2600␤2925␤3276␤3654␤4060␤4495␤4960␤5456␤5984␤»
jhuni The replication operator works correctly 06:02
eternaleye jhuni: It's more that parentheses aren't getting out of the way when they're supposed to sometimes
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jhuni does this have something to do with chaining? 06:05
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eternaleye jhuni: I don't think so 06:08
sorear No
The Perl6 parcel/slicel semantics are still a tad murky, and Rakudo and the spec aren't in complete agreement yet 06:09
jhuni rakudo: say [~] [Rxx] (2, 2, 2, 2) 06:10
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«22␤»
jhuni rakudo: say ((2 ** 4) == (2 R** 4)) 06:13
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«1␤»
sorear TimToady: Do we have the technology to generate good error messages for *syntax* errors in PEGs? 06:37
Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final } at (20 lines away from the actual error) has gotten to the point where I want to do something about it
jhuni If I am understanding this right, the xx operator looks like gather { take $a for 1..$b } from ./operators.pm on line 262 06:43
yeah it looks like there is something wrong with the flattening, so now I wonder where the source code behind this flattening stuff is 06:58
sorear As far as I know that doesn't exist 07:02
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BrowserUk ? 07:12
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jhuni rakudo: say [~] (2 xx 4).reduce: { $^a[] xx $^b } 07:50
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«22222222␤»
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pmichaud incoming nqp bonus 08:05
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sorear pmichaud: no dalek 08:29
mathw morning 08:34
mathw is really starting to hate C++
mathw wants to use Perl 6 instead
m6locks so why dontcha :) 08:54
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sjohnson hi 08:55
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zag Whether there are any restrictions for translate per6/book to other languages ? I plan to translate into Russian. 09:04
perl6/book (github.com/perl6/book.git)
JimmyZ feel free to do it. 09:06
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mathw m6locks: Insufficient concurrency support 09:27
In the future, though...
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k23z__ hi, just read the news about Allison being elected in Python Software Foundation, any thoughts about how this will affect Parrot and implictly Rakudo development ? 09:40
sorear not at all. 09:41
this means that Allison is now most responsible for the paper pushing required to manage a nonprofit organization, with 5-6 figures of grant money involved, and lots of beauracrcy 09:42
it has absolutely no bearing on technical matters 09:43
except insofar as, if the presedent flubs the job, getting a PSF grant will be a wee bit harder
JimmyZ k23z__: where is the new? link? 09:44
k23z__ JimmyZ, check Gabor's blog
JimmyZ er, news
moritz_ good morning
m6locks gm
JimmyZ k23z__: I don't know who is Gabor 09:45
szabgab me
JimmyZ good morning moritz_
k23z__ JimmyZ, szabgab.com/blog/2010/05/1273870026.html
JimmyZ thanks
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cognominal hum, find_lex in a Q:PIR searches for pir opcodes? 09:58
moritz_ does it?
why would an opcode be in a lexical scope? 09:59
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cognominal I try to make sense of method term:sym<pir::op>($/) { in Actions.pm 10:00
moritz_ in rakudo or nqp-rx?
cognominal rakudo 10:01
but I would no be surprised it uses some magic of nqp-rx 10:02
moritz_ it searches $pirop
which is a variable
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cognominal E2MUCHMAGIC 10:05
moritz_ why? 10:06
it works :-)
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cognominal yea, but I don't understand it 10:07
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moritz_ what part is that you don't understand? 10:08
cognominal pir opcodes are not in a lexpad as far as I know 10:09
moritz_ right
it searches for the varible $pirop, which was define two lines above
in Perl 6 code
and which holds a string representation of $<op>
which is what \w+ matched in line 1189 of src/Perl6/Grammar.pm 10:10
cognominal so for example parsing pir::clone__PP($<name><identifier>); will lead to a search of clone_PP in some lexpad. That's where I have a problem 10:12
moritz_ nope 10:13
it compiles to a PAST::OP with pirop set to 'clone PP' 10:14
which will eventually compile down to $P1 = clone $P0
and $P0 is whatever $<name><identifier> compiles down to
cognominal but there a find_lex!! 10:15
moritz_ but that's internal to the method that compiles pir::clone_PP 10:16
it's not in the emitted code
cognominal but it must find the opcode in some pad to work!
moritz_ nope
opcodes are like built-ins in Perl 5 10:17
they are just available
no need to do anything to actually use them
print 5; # look, no search in lexpads involved
cognominal so what the purpose of the find_lex?
moritz_ it acts as a bridge between the perl6 and the PIR code in Actions.pm 10:18
it's run at compile time, and doesn't appear in the PIR output at all 10:19
cognominal as usual, I make some hidden assumption that is dead wrong and blinds me :( 10:22
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moritz_ cognominal: nopaste.snit.ch/20552 10:25
.lex "$x", $P23
find_lex $P24, "$x"
find_lex $P25, "$x"
clone $P26, $P25
that's the non-boilerplate part the program compiles down to
that's for my $x; pir::clone__PP($x) 10:27
the 'my $x;' leads to to the .lex "$x" directive
and the pir::clone__PP($x) looks up $x ( find_lex $P25, "$x" )
cognominal hum, so the find_lex has nothing to do with a pir opcode. 10:28
moritz_ and then just clones it, and stores the result in $P26
right
cognominal I was stuck on that
thx 10:29
moritz_ np
cognominal using ./perl6 --target=PIR interactively is a nice trick 10:31
the find_lex $P24, "$x" seems spurious though 10:35
sorear it is 10:36
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sorear see also: tcurtis' GSoC project to fix that 10:37
moritz_ cognominal: aye; I've just wondered if there's an easy way to prevent that 10:38
cognominal anyway, I am still amazed with how much magic one can pull with Perl 6 grammars 10:42
moritz_ indeed
cognominal many interesting books in perspective 10:43
I long to see the Perl6 Petri dish macros as opposed to the Lisp hygienic macros to further the Perl 6 biotop 10:47
k23z__ cognominal, what are those ? 10:52
cognominal it is a figment of my imagination :) 10:53
pugssvn r30622 | colomon++ | [spec] Switch atan2 to work on Real instead of Numeric. Add TrigBase argument to it as well. 10:54
cognominal k23z__, I just want to say that everything lisp is sterile grammarwise, so if their hygienic macros are great, I suppose that Perl 6 macro will be fertile comparatively 10:55
even I don't know about the specifics
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jnthn o/ 11:37
cognominal \o
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thraidh hi 11:39
JimmyZ \o/ 11:40
thraidh what is the best way to find out if S05 is wrong or the implementation of regexes not up to the spec
colomon ask TimToady when he's around. 11:41
but it's a safe guess that implementation is not up to spec yet.
in general, I don't know about your specific case.
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JimmyZ std: / '' / 11:42
p6eval std 30622: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 113m␤»
thraidh rakudo: "a" ~~ /a {make "b"}/; say $/.ast
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«␤»
thraidh should output "b"
std: "a" ~~ /a {make "b"}/; say $/.ast
p6eval std 30622: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 111m␤»
thraidh is std just a syntax check? 11:43
rakudo: "foo123bar" ~~ / foo <( \d+ )> bar / ; say $()
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "\"foo123bar"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 501 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:327)␤»
JimmyZ thraidh: yes 11:44
thraidh std: "foo123bar" ~~ / foo <( \d+ )> bar / ; say $() 11:45
p6eval std 30622: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 111m␤»
thraidh rakudo: "foo123bar" ~~ / foo <( \d+ )> bar / ; say $()
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "\"foo123bar"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 501 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:327)␤»
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thraidh is there a list of things which do not yet work with rakudo? 11:46
jnthn No 11:48
Not an exhaustive one, anyway
Oh, I think $() is dead anyway - is it still mentioned in S05?
If so, I *think* it's a fossil
thraidh rakudo: "a" ~~ /a {make "b"}/; say $/.ast 11:51
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«␤»
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thraidh but that should work? 11:51
jnthn That should I think work.
Suspect it's a bug
thraidh actually, right now, it only works if you use separate grammar and actions 11:52
jnthn (Knowing other things that are implemented, I quite surprised it doesn't work.)
Yeah
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thraidh rakudo: grammar g { rule TOP { a }; }; class a { method TOP { make "b" }; }; say g.parse("a", :actions(a)).ast 11:53
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 2 but expected 1␤current instr.: 'perl6;a;TOP' pc 913 (EVAL_1:65488615)␤»
thraidh hmm... this works locally... 11:55
rakudo: grammar G { rule TOP { a }; }; class A { method TOP { make "b" }; }; say G.parse("a", :actions(A)).ast 11:56
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 2 but expected 1␤current instr.: 'perl6;A;TOP' pc 913 (EVAL_1:58911895)␤»
thraidh rakudo: grammar G { rule TOP { a }; }; class A { method TOP($/) { make "b" }; }; say G.parse("a", :actions(A)).ast
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«b␤»
thraidh my fault
rakudo: grammar G { rule TOP { a { make "c"; }; }; class A { method TOP($/) { make "b" }; }; say G.parse("a").ast 11:57
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«Malformed regex at line 11, near "TOP { a { "␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 501 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:327)␤»
thraidh rakudo: grammar G { rule TOP { "a" { make "c"; }; }; class A { method TOP($/) { make "b" }; }; say G.parse("a").ast
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«Malformed regex at line 11, near "TOP { \"a\" "␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 501 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:327)␤»
pmichaud good morning, #perl6 12:02
jnthn morning, pmichaud 12:03
colomon o/
thraidh good afternoon, pmichaud
pmichaud nqp: sub A($a) { return { say($a * 2); } }; my $x := A(3); my $y := A(5); $x(); 12:04
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«10␤»
pmichaud ENOTUPDATED?
colomon that's fixed? \o/
pmichaud pmichaud@plum:~/nqp-rx$ ./nqp 12:05
> sub A($a) { return { say($a * 2); } }; my $x := A(3); my $y := A(5); $x();
6
jnthn \o/
pmichaud++
pmichaud the nqp fix ended up being relatively straightforward once PAST was fixed up a bit... I'm hoping rakudo will be the same. 12:06
thraidh jnthn: is that the perl6-communities way to applaud someone?
jnthn thraidh: Aye. :-) 12:07
pmichaud I always thought it was just a postfix sigil identifying a person or entity. :-) 12:10
jnthn I++ think that approach++ could get noisy. ;-) 12:12
pmichaud you++ mean it hasn't been noisy already? ;-) 12:13
thraidh for c-minded people it has the connotation of incremention (is that a word?) 12:14
(or for any other language with roots in c) 12:15
where would the person-or-entity-thing come from?
colomon pmichaud was joking. 12:16
++ is still increment in Perl 6
and in fact, there is sometimes a bot on the channel tracking how many ++'s each person has gotten. 12:17
thraidh it is... but i think its string concatenation in somewhere else (smalltalk?)
jnthn @karma jnthn 12:18
aww, ENOBOT
thraidh *g*
jnthn No point making commits
;-)
thraidh i assume there is no --
jnthn Oh, there is. :-)
jnthn-- didn't write enough patches this week.
thraidh ;) 12:19
do i have to learn pir in order to write a somewhat more complicated program with rakudo? 12:20
jnthn thraidh: No
thraidh: More if you wnat to hack on Rakudo.
thraidh i assumed that might become necessary at some point 12:21
jnthn There's the occasional module that does use PIR.
But they're doing quite low-level-ish things.
Plus end up being backend-specific. 12:22
thraidh i have the bad habit to always want to do things which are hard, impossible or not working (though not intentionally)
is it good style to separate grammar and actions? 12:24
jnthn Yes,
Because then you can choose to associate a different set of actions wiht the same grammar later 12:25
thraidh or is that just 'legacy' since there was no other way in the earlier days
jnthn Or just get the parse tree.
Without doing actions
No, it's not legacy, it's a good way to do it in any non-trivial case.
thraidh i read somewhere that rules are "just" methods 12:27
but i can't find that anymore
what would the capture of such a method be? 12:28
and what would be expected from such a method to do? how do i consume the string to be matched? 12:29
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pmichaud *sigh* Current rakudo on current parrot trunk haz failz 12:38
Multiple declarations of lexical '$' 12:39
that's weird.
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thraidh indeed 12:41
pmichaud will have to clean those up before I can fix closures
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thraidh rakudo: grammar G { rule TOP { a }; }; class A { method TOP($/) { make "b" }; }; say G.parse("a", :actions(A)).ast 12:42
colomon pmichaud: how complicated is it? Could one of us fix that while you work on something else arcane?
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«b␤»
thraidh rakudo: grammar G { rule TOP { a }; }; class A { method TOP($/) { make "b" }; }; say G.parse("a", :actions(A)).ast.perl
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«"b"␤»
thraidh rakudo: grammar G { rule TOP { a }; }; class A { method TOP($/) { make ["b"] }; }; say G.parse("a", :actions(A)).ast.perl
p6eval rakudo 7e0aa3: OUTPUT«["b"]␤»
pmichaud colomon: I don't know how complicated it is. But yes, my nefarious plan was to let you collectively work it out for a while :) 12:43
colomon :)
jnthn pmichaud: ah, I can probably fix that easily if I can work out where it's coming from.
pmichaud I was trying to bump PARROT_REVISION to 46606
jnthn It's probably just an accident that we got away with before Parrot got more strict.
oh, three sixes...that's evil.
;-)
pmichaud you can bump to 46607 if it helps. 12:44
jnthn ;-)
pmichaud: Building a bumped version now to see the fail. 12:45
[Coke] yah, that was a long standard reported bug (duplicate .lexes) 12:46
STANDING.
(stupid brain. I know where you live.)
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thraidh [Coke]: it's not the brain... it's the fingers... they think they can write what they want... 12:49
pmichaud oh, I bet the problem is with anonymous sigils then 12:50
jnthn pmichaud: Yeah
It may be a trivial fix in Signature.pm
pmichaud probably need to switch a ::Var node to be something other than :lexical 12:52
jnthn Well, or just not emit it at all perhaps.
pmichaud yeah, that might work as well, as long as nothing expects to bind
oh, I bet it's .parameter 12:53
grrr
:scope<parameter>
jnthn Very unlikely.
Rakudo barely uses :scope<parameter>
Only to get the call_sig to pass along to the binder.
pmichaud okay, then it's a :scope<lexical> decl that is the likely culprit
yeah, you're right
jnthn Yeah, I very much suspect so.
pmichaud I'll let you hack away on getting it up to latest parrot trunk for a while then, and work on some other stuff for a bit 12:54
afk for a bit
thraidh where do i find my current parrot_revision? 12:56
colomon thraidh: build/PARROT_REVISION 12:58
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thraidh if you do not have a secret developer trunk, then current rakudo passes all tests with parrot revision 46405 13:01
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jnthn > sub foo($, $) { say "ok" }; foo(4, 2); 13:15
ok
> my ($, $, $c) = 1,2,3; say $c;
3
Thing those should be the two main cases that we got broken.
Work now
spectesting.
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mathw \o/ 13:21
sahadev1 rakudo: [reduce { $^a + $^b }, -5..5].perl.say 13:23
p6eval rakudo 6c97fe: OUTPUT«[0]␤»
sahadev1 rakudo: [reduce { $^b < 0 ?? $^a-$^b : $^a+$^b }, -5..5].perl.say
p6eval rakudo 6c97fe: OUTPUT«Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 11␤current instr.: 'perl6;Regex;Cursor;FAILGOAL' pc 1696 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/Regex-s0.pir:932)␤»
sahadev1 is this a bug? 13:24
colomon rakudo: [reduce { $^b < 0 ?? $^a-$^b !! $^a+$^b }, -5..5].perl.say
p6eval rakudo 6c97fe: OUTPUT«[20]␤»
sahadev1 ah, thanks colomon.
colomon rakudo: (reduce { $^b < 0 ?? $^a-$^b !! $^a+$^b }, -5..5).say
p6eval rakudo 6c97fe: OUTPUT«20␤»
colomon you're welcome. 13:26
now if I could just figure out my own bug so easily.... ;)
PerlJam colomon: put your code up where more eyes can view it and get the Internet to help you :) 13:27
colomon code used to be 1 / self.sin($base); 13:28
is now 1 / $x.sin($base);
is it possible that the second one parses as (1 / $x).sin($base) instead of 1 / ($x.sin($base))?
(basically, I went through and switched Complex's trig functions to be in terms of an invocant $x rather than self, and now all the functions which do "/ $x.sin($base)" or "/ $x.sinh($base)" are broken. 13:29
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PerlJam you can easily (?) parenthesize ($x.sinh($base)) if you suspect it's a precedence problem. 13:31
If the parens don't fix it, then there's something else wrong.
colomon PerlJam++ # for simple wisdom that was eluding me 13:32
afk (but compiling PerlJam's suggestion) 13:33
lisppaste3 sahadev1 pasted "why does'nt this terminate?" at paste.lisp.org/display/99224 13:36
jnthn pmichaud: Fixes pushed. 13:39
13:39 plobsing joined 13:45 pnu joined 13:46 BrowserUk left
PerlJam sahadev1: why do you have only two ??, but three !! ? 13:50
oh, never mind. My eyes are playing tricks on me. 13:52
13:52 zag left, isBEKaml joined
sahadev1 PerlJam: :) 13:53
$^a[0..*-3] # is this wrong syntactically?
what is the right way to say, give me the slice from 0 to everything but last 2 elements? 13:54
moritz_ it should work
rakudo: say reduce {$^a + $^b}, (-5)..5 13:56
p6eval rakudo 6c97fe: OUTPUT«0␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say reduce {$^a + $^b}, (-5)..0
p6eval rakudo 6c97fe: OUTPUT«-15␤»
moritz_ \o/ it seems that p6l commit mails now have a proper subject line 13:57
ie my patch worked
jnthn -> köpa öööööööl
sahadev1 rakudo: my @a = 1..5; @a[0..*-3].perl.say 14:00
p6eval rakudo 6c97fe: ( no output )
moritz_ rakudo still has problems with *
current workaround:
rakudo: my @a = 1..5; say @a[0..@a-3].perl 14:01
p6eval rakudo 6c97fe: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 3)␤»
sahadev1 moritz_: thanks.
moritz_ sahadev1: you're welcome
14:03 isBEKaml left
moritz_ sahadev1: I'm curious, how did you learn about Perl 6? 14:03
14:03 isBEKaml joined, JimmyZ joined
sahadev1 moritz_: i have been following it on and off ever since cups were shattered back in 2000 :) 14:04
i have been programming in perl since 1997. 14:05
moritz_ :-)
mathw Welcome!
isBEKaml hi, #perl6! :) 14:06
mathw Hi isBEKaml
colomon o/ 14:07
PerlJam hello isBEKaml 14:08
isBEKaml how's things? bumped parrot revisions, eh? {backloggin}
PerlJam idly wonders what everyone's "perl age" is
moritz_ isBEKaml: ongoing closure fixes, and adaption to parrot changes
isBEKaml PerlJam: you should be wondering about perl{6}age... ;) 14:09
moritz_ has been doing Perl since 2003
14:09 TiMBuS left
colomon oh, bother, additional parens did not fix my issue. :\ 14:09
moritz_ and Perl 6 since 2007 14:10
isBEKaml thinking about it, we might as well put in a new word into our perl dictionary, perlage! :)
PerlJam isBEKaml: actually what I was wondering was "how many perl 6 people have used perl 4 or earlier?"
moritz_ looks at Tene
[Coke] o/
moritz_ erm, TimToady actually
colomon starting learning Perl in 1995, and bought the Perl 6 / Parrot book when it was fairly new (2003ish)
[Coke] cut his teeth on perl 4 on xenix. 14:11
colomon so yes, I used perl 4 for a number of years.
PerlJam that makes at least 5 people so far
[Coke] assumes the xenix is worth bonus points. =-)
sahadev1 remembers looking at some Perl 4 code back in 1995 - using cgi-lib.pl
isBEKaml or it can be perlhexage! :)
colomon it certainly wasn't linux I was using in '95. :)
PerlJam [Coke]: you get some condolences anyway :) 14:12
colomon but I don't remember which of the motley collection of Unixish machines at my old $work had Perl on it.
mathw 11 14:13
colomon is [0..*-3] ever meant to work?
moritz_ yes
colomon rakudo: say 1..5-3
p6eval rakudo 6c97fe: OUTPUT«12␤»
PerlJam I've had this theory for a while that the perl people that most object to Perl 6 are those that have *only* used Perl 5.
isBEKaml has used perl5 on and off, for an year. And, looks at the tall _trees_ around him and feels stymied.
mathw never used Perl 4, and started with Perl 5.6 14:14
At least I think it was 5.6
colomon moritz_: I don't understand how.
mathw But Perl 6 was announced not long after...
moritz_ colomon: with Whatever-currying
colomon oh, wait.
PerlJam colomon: the real question is ... what does it *do* ? :)
mathw And I've followed it all along, with varying involvement over time
colomon moritz_: my problem is that 1..* and 1..*-1 are wildly different things. 14:15
moritz_ mathw: it must have 5.6 for me too, but when I started caring about perl versions i already used 5.8
colomon: seems like, yes
mathw moritz_: I remember an early encounter with Perl 5.004 which left me reeling, because it didn't have three-argument open 14:16
astonishingly, we still have a few servers at work with 5.005 on
colomon mathw: I didn't even learn about three-argument open until last year, I think. :)
isBEKaml thankfully, our servers run perl 5.8.4
mathw I've got 5.10 on my desktop at work 14:17
14:17 bacek left
colomon moritz_: I guess the good news is that 1..* will "do the right thing" in [ ] anyway. 14:17
mathw have written a few scripts which require it
but I can't do much like that as other people have to use them :(
14:17 bacek joined
moritz_ mostly likes say() and infix // about perl 5.10 14:17
mathw // is awesome 14:18
I also like given...when :)
moritz_ I like the other things too, but I don't use them as often
isBEKaml given...when is part of 5.10? :O
mathw yup
isBEKaml I thought it was introduced in perl6...
PerlJam isBEKaml: and a limited form of smart matching
mathw when I last gave my Perl 5 course at work, I teased everyone horribly with it 14:19
moritz_ but you need parens around the arguments to given and when in 5.10
pmichaud jnthn: I still get some failures with new Parrot trunk
mathw because we don't have anything running 5.10 officially here :)
PerlJam isBEKaml: yes, it was introduced in Perl 6, then ported to Perl 5
14:19 moritz_ sets mode: +oooo pmichaud mathw PerlJam isBEKaml, moritz_ sets mode: +o colomon
isBEKaml PerlJam: wow, nice.. :) 14:19
PerlJam isBEKaml: Perl borrows from everywhere, even its siblings.
lisppaste3 pmichaud pasted "current rakudo failures" at paste.lisp.org/display/99226 14:20
14:20 hugme joined, moritz_ sets mode: +vv lisppaste3 hugme
isBEKaml PerlJam: I knew that about Perl in general. I just didn't know that p5p still port stuff from newer releases... 14:21
moritz_ t/spec/S03-junctions/autothreading.rakudo regularly aborts when run as part of 'make spectest' 14:22
colomon pmichaud: you mean, current Rakudo with Parrot HEAD?
PerlJam isBEKaml: What makes Perl 6 special that p5p *wouldn't* borrow from it? :)
pmichaud current Rakudo.
as pushed by jnthn a short while ago
colomon oh, I see, jnthn++ pushed stuff while I was out.
isBEKaml PerlJam: Ops? :)
14:22 patspam joined
mathw isBEKaml: the thing is that Perl 6 isn't newer than 5.12, they're contemporaries so why shouldn't they share things? 14:23
moritz_ t/spec/S12-class/attributes.rakudo emits an IMCC syntax error
14:24 Trashlord left
moritz_ t/spec/S12-attributes/instance.rakudo same 14:24
isBEKaml mathw: they can and that's nice. I thought current releases are generally maintenance stuff. The nice thing is, that's not. :)
moritz_ the last time I've seen IMCC syntax errors from Perl 6 code, it was because of has ($.a, $.b) 14:25
PerlJam isBEKaml: oh no. Perl 5 is still active and evolving. It's not "in maintenance" while waiting for Perl 6 or anything.
mathw isBEKaml: I think for a while they were, but it's really kicked back up on Perl 5 recently. 14:26
Which is awesome, really
14:26 sahadev1 is now known as sahadev
PerlJam mathw: when releases were onerous, they were few and far between. So p5p decided to fix that. :) 14:27
isBEKaml mathw: yes, I remember reading somewhere (shadowcat ? don't recall) that p5 switched dev releases from bug fix cycles to monthly cycles. Now, that's great for p5!
mathw PerlJam: That was a good thing for them to fix
Releases should never be difficult
PerlJam indeed.
colomon rakudo: say acosec(1i) 14:28
p6eval rakudo 6c97fe: OUTPUT«0 + -0.881373587019543i␤»
jnthn pmichaud: Oh? What fails?
PerlJam This is the first time in over 10 years that I've started paying attention to p5p (well, #p5p really).
jnthn pmichaud: oh, nm, just saw paste
pmichaud: Those two aren't specific to the Parrot bump 14:29
pmichaud: One of them seems to be intermitent too.
pmichaud: They're on my todo list.
oh, wtf 14:30
"syntax error ... somewhere"
Thanks Parrot, that's wonderful. :| 14:31
isBEKaml PerlJam: I didn't too much about p5p's changes in release cycles. What did they do that eased release cycles?
moritz_ btw I've got a mail from Aliaksandr Zahatski, asking about licensing/legal issues regarding translating the Perl 6 book to Russian
14:31 xomas_ joined
moritz_ I'm going to answer "fine by me, see license notice in README", only more verbose... anything else I should write? 14:32
colomon rakudo: say acosec(1i, Degrees)
p6eval rakudo 6c97fe: OUTPUT«0 + -50.4989867105262i␤»
moritz_ he proposed the same license for his work as we already use (cc by attribution, share-alike, non-commercial=
pmichaud should we also check with chromatic? 14:33
moritz_ I'm going to CC him
pmichaud wfm
moritz_ and anybody else who wants :-)
mathw Surely if it's CC-BY-SA-NC he can do what he likes with it as long as he doesn't sell it, releases it under the same licence and credits you 14:34
PerlJam moritz_: sounds good to me.
jnthn spots the underlying issue
(with the two failures)
mathw posts jnthn a giant cookie
moritz_ mathw: yes; still it's a nice move of him to ask first
jnthn Trying a patch now
mathw moritz_: oh definitely
14:35 xomas_ is now known as xomas
PerlJam moritz_: be sure to tell Aliaksandr to give himself attribution for the translation :) 14:35
PerlJam wonders if Onyx Neon Press does multi-lingual publications 14:36
isBEKaml PerlJam: I believe that's what moritz_ will be asking of chromatic. .. :)
moritz_: that's nice of him to ask first. I see no issues if he uses CC by SA and NC. But what will he do when you go live with the book? 14:38
I think he should clarify that first, though he's free to continue using the same licence. 14:39
moritz_ what will he do? I don't understand the issue...
isBEKaml moritz_: you had mentioned on the README that you'll be revoking CC by SA licence when you go to print. Aliaksandr, though he can continue with the same licence and offer online reading, should clarify his position on this. 14:40
PerlJam er, what? 14:41
moritz_ isBEKaml: the README says that maybe we'll remove the "noncommerical" part of the license in future
14:41 JimmyZ left
isBEKaml just to be sure, if you're going to link to his work under translations. 14:41
moritz_ isBEKaml: which leaves him in a better position 14:42
and I don't plan to make money from his translation anyway :-)
isBEKaml oh, we're good then. :)
jnthn pmichaud: Have a fix for those two as well 14:43
pmichaud: spectesting again, then will push
pmichaud jnthn: okay, good. I'm having to rethink our sub wrapper objects a fair bit
jnthn Turned out to be a trivial fix.
pmichaud: oh?
pmichaud: The wrappers getting in the way of lexical capturing somehow? 14:44
pmichaud in order to properly get a clone of the (parrot) sub, we need a clone of its wrapper
jnthn *nod*
Cloning the wrapper *should* clone the Parrot sub.
I'm pretty sure it does, anyways.
pmichaud right, but PAST doesn't know about wrappers.
I mean, PAST::Block doesn't know about wrappers
and it's the thing that is doing the newclosure to clone the sub
jnthn Ah. 14:45
Yeah, I can sorta see that issue.
Hmm.
pmichaud cloning the wrapper also has to clone its properties
or, at least some of them (e.g., signature)
...unless those are attributes now? 14:46
jnthn pmichaud: Still prop.
isBEKaml moritz_: what exactly were those "ongoing closure fixes" that you mentioned?
moritz_ isBEKaml: what pmichaud is working on... some fixes to parrot's closure handling 14:47
pmichaud well, parrot's closure handling is fine now... it's rakudo's that is a pain
colomon Strange question: what is supposed to happen when we define two multi methods with the exact same signature in a class?
jnthn colomon: Nothing until you call it.
colomon: At that point, a conflict. 14:48
colomon: Unless one is marked "is defualt"
isBEKaml oh, I see.
pmichaud nqp: sub A($a) { return { say($a*2); } }; my $x := A(3); my $y := A(5); $x(); # just checking
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«10␤»
pmichaud ESTILLNOTUPDATED
pmichaud checks that he did actually push the nqp changes to github...
jnthn colomon: It can be useful, though. Like you can write multiple methods with the same signature as "even handlers" 14:49
colomon: And have them all invoked with .*
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isBEKaml pmichaud: I think I came across something like this last week. I wasn't here since - so I'll just paste what I didn't understand then 14:49
pmichaud isBEKaml: yes, I fixed closures in nqp last night 14:50
isBEKaml: I was just seeing if p6eval had updated yet (it hasn't)
14:50 snarkyboojum left
isBEKaml pmichaud: oh, didn't moritz_++ update cron entries to p6eval? 14:50
moritz_: ? 14:51
pmichaud here's how it looks on my system:
colomon jnthn: neither marked default, and the calls were working.
pmichaud > sub A($a) { return { say($a * 2) } }; my $x := A(3); my $y := A(5); $x();
6
isBEKaml pmichaud: nice, is it really necessary that closures are to be bound always? 14:52
pmichaud isBEKaml: how do you mean?
isBEKaml nqp: sub A($a) { return { say($a * 2) } }; my $x = A(3); my $y = A(5); $x();
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Assignment ("=") not supported in NQP, use ":=" instead at line 1, near " A(3); my"␤current instr.: 'parrot;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (src/cheats/hll-grammar.pir:197)␤»
isBEKaml pmichaud: :=
pmichaud isBEKaml: nqp doesn't have assignment, only binding
jnthn colomon: Oh.
colomon: That sounds very odd.
isBEKaml pmichaud: Oh
colomon jnthn: do a search on acosec in Complex.pm. 14:53
isBEKaml nqp: sub subbydo_returns { my $temp:=23; return {$_ + $temp}; }; my $ttr := subbydo_returns;my $test2:=$ttr(23);say $test2.WHAT; say $test2; # just checking, I may be sorely wrong in usage 14:54
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«./nqp: error while loading shared libraries: libparrot.so.2.1.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory␤»
colomon I've been trying to figure out how I broke it, and it turns out the answer was that I changed the first Complex.acosec to be a method instead of a multi method, and suddenly dispatch switched to using the second acosec, which was broken.
pmichaud jnthn: I'm wondering if I want/need a wrapper PAST node of some type
moritz_ rebuilding nqp-rx's parrot failed on the server that runs evalbot
cleaning now, and trying again
pmichaud yes, there are times when make realclean seems to fail horribly for parrot 14:55
I run into that when doing batches of spectest_progress updates
isBEKaml nqp: sub subbydo_returns { my $temp:=23; return {$_ + $temp}; }; my $ttr := subbydo_returns;my $test2:=$ttr(23);say $test2; # just checking, I may be sorely wrong in usage
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«./nqp: error while loading shared libraries: libparrot.so.2.1.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory␤»
moritz_ on my dev box I have a git clone of parrot, and use git clean -xdf to wipe out old files
it's *very* thorough
14:55 JimmyZ joined
moritz_ so if you have patches lying around... don't. 14:56
isBEKaml pmichaud: where am I failing?
pmichaud isBEKaml: you're not ... the problem is that nqp is currently being rebuilt for p6eval
moritz_ nqp-rx is currently being rebuilt
pmichaud isBEKaml: you're just catching it in the middle of a rebuild
isBEKaml oh, jeez :( 14:57
14:57 snarkyboojum joined
pmichaud but beyond that, in NQP all sub declarations require a signature 14:57
isBEKaml really should go drink another strong cup of coffee
pmichaud and there's no implicit $_
jnthn pmichaud: (wrapper type) could we have it as a property on the PAST::Block?
pmichaud jnthn: I'm thinking perhaps a bit more general (more) 14:58
jnthn pmichaud: I'd actually quite like to still have a PAST::Block in the AST.
pmichaud what we really want is a PAST node type that can deal with context
jnthn In that it makes various bits of analysis easier later perhaps.
jnthn listens
14:58 ruoso joined
pmichaud "if in void context, return this otherwise return this-other-thing" 14:58
the chances I made to PAST::Block for better closure support basically are context aware... if a block is being used as an rvalue (i.e., not void context), then we make a clone and return it 14:59
otherwise, if in void context, we do nothing more than generate the block definition
moritz_ nqp: say('rebuild finished') 15:00
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«rebuild finished␤»
pmichaud because creating a clone is an unnecessary cost in that case
for Rakudo, it's a bit more than just creating a clone
because in our case, we're actually creating PAST nodes that create a wrapper for the block
[Coke] (realclean on parrot is not guaranteed to work across svn updates.) 15:01
pmichaud so, what I'd like is some sort of node (or way to use existing nodes) such that in void context it just builds the wrapper + block, but in non-void context it clones the wrapper
jnthn pmichaud: +1 15:02
That sounds quite sane.
pmichaud so more generically I think I want a context-aware node type in PAST
so that context sensitivity can be exploited by PAST users as well as PAST internally.
moritz_ so... is there some mechanism for detecting sink/void context already?
pmichaud moritz_: not that is exposed to a PAST user. 15:03
I'm thinking this might be a way to get that.
moritz_ that would be great
pmichaud ....but YES! This would also resolve the sink/void context deal as well.
moritz_ because it would bring us close to lazy 'for' loops
pmichaud "in void context, add a .sink call to the result; in non-void context, just return the result"
moritz_ right
15:04 plobsing left
pmichaud it's much cleaner (so far) to let PAST figure out context than to try to have the actions determine it. 15:04
jnthn pmichaud: oooh! :-)
moritz_ and the PAST optimizer can get rid of PAST::Val nodes in sink context, and optionally warn
jnthn pmichaud: TimToady++ has been talking about it as a later pass too, iirc.
pmichaud: So it all fits together.
15:04 iblechbot left
pmichaud moritz_: even better, the PAST compiler itself can do it. 15:05
it doesn't have to be an optimization setp.
*step
it falls out fairly naturally
jnthn *nod*
jnthn likes it
pmichaud that potentially means I could remove my .closure addition I just made to PAST::Block, and use the new nodetype instead
(but I kind of like the .closure addition; it's common enough to almost warrant being a default) 15:06
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pmichaud I suppose it would also be possible to generalize the node to handle several types of context beyond just void 15:06
jnthn Just pushed the fixes to has ($!x, $!y)
pmichaud i.e., int, string, and pmc
jnthn There's an RT for that somewhere, if anyone feels like finding it. 15:07
pmichaud: I suggest just void and not at first.
pmichaud so... "when in int context, generate this code; when in string context, generate this other code, when in ..."
jnthn pmichaud: I'd like to be more sure HLLs could use int/string etc context thins. 15:08
*things
(In a useful way.)
pmichaud jnthn: I'm thinking there's a default "generate this code" and exceptions "but when in X context, use this instead"
jnthn: I'm certain of it.
jnthn And also that we don't tie PAST too closely to Parrot.
pmichaud I agree, tying past closely to parrot is a small issue
jnthn (PMC is quite specific in that sense.)
pmichaud well, it's more "other" than "pmc" 15:09
jnthn ("boxed thingy" is more generic though)
*nod*
If you're comfortable there will be HLL uses, it's fine - I do OTOH like the small-ness of PAST. :-)
pmichaud but I know that a HLL might want to be able to optimize my int $i = 2 + 3 to use an integer add opcode instead of generating a function call 15:10
i.e., it provides another place for some good type optimizations
I'd probably just have "void", "int", "str", and "default"
and rakudo would tend to stick to "void" and "other" for its work. 15:11
jnthn pmichaud: Yeah, that does make sense. 15:12
pmichaud: OK, I like it.
pmichaud (I'm thinking that NQP could itself make use of these features... so yeah, at least one other HLL has a use case :) 15:13
jnthn pmichaud: Just suggest to avoid "PMC" as one of the options, call it something more generic.
pmichaud right
"default"
"object"
something like that
jnthn likes object
pmichaud most likely default
moritz_ "Mu"
moritz_ hides
jnthn switches moritz_ to Mu-te
;-)
moritz_ :-)
pmichaud afk, time to walk and roll this around in my head a bit more 15:14
moritz_ roll, roll, roll the head
15:14 cdarroch joined, cdarroch left, cdarroch joined
isBEKaml lolling on the shoulders? ;) 15:14
I admit all this discussion was way over my head and understood next to nothing of what actually transpired :( 15:15
moritz_ isBEKaml: 'twas the same in my first year in here too 15:16
and mostly in the second, too
15:16 xomas left
isBEKaml moritz_: hopefully I'll catch on. :) 15:16
moritz_ and I still don't understand many of the current discussions, especially those about closure guts and concurrency
pmichaud back for a sec 15:17
I think it's going to be a PAST::Context type, which has two children and a "context type" attribute. The first child is generate if the context is given by "context type", otherwise the second child is generated. (either may be null, which causes nothing to be generated) 15:18
if there are situations wehre multiple contexts are possible, then just chain them together like if-then-else logic
jnthn isBEKaml: In summary, we found a place where we could do with passing a bit more high-level semantic information down to a lower "layer" of the compiler so it can generate the correct / better code. 15:19
pmichaud isBEKaml: ...thereby providing a framework to solve several seemingly unrelated problems at once. :-)
jnthn pmichaud: I like that. Chaining them will probably be a rare case.
So I don't mind if it's a little more effort, and really it's not that much anything 15:20
pmichaud in this case, we fix closures and also void/sink context
right, I agree
and it also allows greater generalization of context types
okay, afk again
jnthn We do the same with the if pasttype node anyway.
pmichaud++
isBEKaml jnthn++; pmichaud++
jnthn: so that's what you were referring to as PAST? Btw, stupid qn here, does PAST stand for Parrot Abstract Syntax Tree? 15:22
jnthn Yes, it does. 15:23
PAST is a representation of programs. We turn that (through an intermediate step) into Parrot Intermediate Code 15:24
Though in the future we plan to be able to transform it into other VM's code too
isBEKaml that would be further low level? not in intermediate PIR?
[Coke] s/further/different/ 15:25
jnthn isBEKaml: different, as Coke said. 15:26
isBEKaml: PIR is specific to Parrot.
I guess PAST is kind of our last abstraction layer before we start to Go Specific.
If you do perl6 --target=past and then type some code, you can see the PAST tree. 15:27
isBEKaml jnthn: where is this laid down? I really would like to go through those docs first and come back asking (stupid ;) ) questions
15:28 PerlJam left
jnthn Depends on the "this". If you want details of PAST, see docs.parrot.org/parrot/latest/html/...t.pod.html 15:28
isBEKaml ah, jnthn. I remember asking that exact question about perl6's switches on the cmd line, last week. Got no answer though.
15:28 PerlJam joined
jnthn isBEKaml: Those are documented in docs/running.pod 15:28
(In the Rakudo repo) 15:29
isBEKaml jnthn: I was looking at running.pod included with rakudo. It was very sparse about the switches esp --trace
jnthn: it says trace=[flags]. What flags can we pass in? 15:30
jnthn isBEKaml: Ah
isBEKaml: That's just actually iirc passing flags straight down to Parrot's trace code.
So would be the same as the Parrot trace flags 15:31
jnthn very rarely uses --trace
You're right though, it's not documented at the Rakudo level.
isBEKaml jnthn: yes. just ran parrot --help-debug and got trace codes. 15:32
jnthn svn.parrot.org/parrot/trunk/docs/running.pod offers a little more info
jnthn isn't sure what's available there. 15:33
[Coke] points at PARROT_OPTIONS later in rakudo's running.pod
jnthn Last time I used --trace I think it actually crashed.
That maybe was fixed though.
[Coke] if --trace is just passthrough, just point down there.
jnthn (was quite a while ago)
isBEKaml jnthn: When I used trace and passed some random integer like 1, it just went out spewing lots of stuff scrolling 15:34
[Coke] 1 is "every opcode" 4 is "every parrot sub"
5 is "both"
isBEKaml [Coke]: parrot --help-debug doesn't say anything about 5. 15:35
[Coke]: 1 - opcodes, 2 - find method, 4 - function calls.
[Coke] isBEKaml: bitflags. 15:36
isBEKaml [Coke]: ah, well
[Coke]: 7 is everything under the Parrot's Sun!
JimmyZ uses perl6 -target=past -e 'say "hi", but it outputs nothing. 15:37
TimToady sorear: yes, STD almost always nails the exact location of the error; if you get an off-by-20-lines error in rakudo, try feeding to STD
JimmyZ err. --target
TimToady of course, it's also possible that STD will accept it...
jnthn isBEKaml: Yes, it's extremely verbose. 15:38
isBEKaml jnthn: and, I was thinking there must be something wrong here. This is a simple program, trace just spits out the entire trace to parrot assembly than just the program? :O 15:40
moritz_ JimmyZ: use --target=past together with a file (or STDIN), not -e 15:41
JimmyZ: known bu
jnthn isBEKaml: I think it traces the parser/compiler stages as well as the runtime. 15:42
isBEKaml jnthn: I just tried perl6 --trace=1 -e 'say "hi"'. It just spews out stuff
JimmyZ moritz_: okay, thanks.
jnthn isBEKaml: Yup
isBEKaml: As I said, it's verbose. :-)
TimToady sorear: there are reasons rakudo cannot do as well as STD: 1) rakudo must backtrack more aggressively to make up for lack of true LTM, so cannot commit to knowing that a panic is warranted where STD commits.
and 2), it doesn't use a highwater algorithm to track what we were trying when we failed, or where that was. 15:43
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isBEKaml jnthn: way too much verbose! :) Not that I complain, but maybe, cut down to what's just necessary or does it have all the debug switches enabled? 15:43
jnthn isBEKaml: If I get to running with --trace, I probably *want* to know everything that happens. 15:44
isBEKaml: It's rare that you need that much info though, which is why the --target=... options are often awy more useful for debugging. 15:45
*way
moritz_ rakudo: sub X { }; sub X { }
p6eval rakudo cddbf3: OUTPUT«Multiple declarations of lexical '&X'␤␤current instr.: 'perl6;PCT;HLLCompiler;evalpmc' pc 987 (compilers/pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:542)␤»
moritz_ parrot++
isBEKaml moritz_: has it enforced public/private jurisdictions in classes yet? 15:46
moritz_ it's not parrot's job
isBEKaml jnthn: I just tried --target=past, it's way more readable. :) 15:47
jnthn :-) 15:48
isBEKaml moritz_: It's our job. ;)
pmichaud isBEKaml: also, --target=pir is sometimes more useful
--trace shows every parrot instruction that executes... which can be a lot 15:49
--target=pir shows the PIR code that is generated
moritz_ should redefining an "only" method in class be an error?
I think so, just not sure...
jnthn moritz_: Believe so
I thought we checked that...
rakudo: class Foo { method m { }; method m { }; } 15:50
p6eval rakudo cddbf3: ( no output )
jnthn Ah, apparently not.
isBEKaml jnthn: another stupid qn, what does PMC in PAST code here stand for? 15:51
pugssvn r30623 | moritz++ | [t/spec] some Rakudo unfudges
moritz_ jnthn: RT #68290, if you care
jnthn moritz_: Need to care about $dayjob for a little ATM, but may be an easy fix. 15:52
isBEKaml Parrot Machine Code?
moritz_ Parrot Magical Cookie 15:53
jnthn Parrot Magic Class
pmichaud PolyMorphic Container
moritz_ or PolyMorphicContainer
jnthn ...or cookie
:-)
pmichaud originally it was Parrot Magic Cookie
moritz_ it's basically "any parrot objects"
isBEKaml That's a lot to remember. :)
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isBEKaml pmichaud: just did --target=pir, I'd say I prefer to look at PAST. :-). PIR generated looks like obfu to me compared to PAST compared to what I wrote in p6. ;) 15:57
[Coke] it's been retcon'd.
pmichaud isBEKaml: yes. it actually makes a lot more sense to look at --target=pir for simpler languages like nqp
in rakudo's case, there's so much setup+takedown that has to take place that it's hard to see the underlying bits at times 15:58
isBEKaml pmichaud: and, I just noticed the .tailcall keyword in the pir. (hazarding a guess here) closure? 15:59
pmichaud no, just a tailcall
moritz_ tailcall is ... tailcall
pmichaud it calls another sub while removing the caller
isBEKaml ok. 16:00
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pmichaud takes a continuation on handling rakudo closures and works on nqp settings. 16:04
isBEKaml nqp: sub subbydo_returns($x) { my $temp:=23; return {$x + $temp}; }; my $ttr := subbydo_returns;my $test2:=$ttr(23);say $test2; 16:05
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Confused at line 1, near "say $test2"␤current instr.: 'parrot;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 501 (src/cheats/hll-grammar.pir:196)␤»
jnthn isBEKaml: need parens around args 16:06
say($test2)
isBEKaml nqp: sub subbydo_returns($x) { my $temp:=23; return {$x + $temp}; }; my $ttr := subbydo_returns;my $test2:=$ttr(23);say($test2);
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«_block20␤»
isBEKaml what? 16:07
rakudo: sub subbydo_returns($x) { my $temp:=23; return {$x + $temp}; }; my $ttr := subbydo_returns;my $test2:=$ttr(23);say($test2);
p6eval rakudo cddbf3: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 0 but expected 1␤current instr.: 'subbydo_returns' pc 253 (EVAL_1:34731342)␤»
isBEKaml rakudo: sub subbydo_returns { my $temp:=23; return {$_ + $temp}; }; my $ttr := subbydo_returns;my $test2:=$ttr(23);say($test2);
p6eval rakudo cddbf3: OUTPUT«:= binding of variables not yet implemented␤current instr.: '&die' pc 17864 (src/builtins/Junction.pir:393)␤»
isBEKaml rakudo: sub subbydo_returns { my $temp=23; return {$_ + $temp}; }; my $ttr:= subbydo_returns;my $test2=$ttr(23);say($test2); 16:08
p6eval rakudo cddbf3: OUTPUT«:= binding of variables not yet implemented␤current instr.: '&die' pc 17864 (src/builtins/Junction.pir:393)␤»
isBEKaml rakudo: sub subbydo_returns { my $temp=23; return {$_ + $temp}; }; my $ttr= subbydo_returns;my $test2=$ttr(23);say($test2);
p6eval rakudo cddbf3: OUTPUT«46␤»
[Coke] . o O (and people say purl is noisy. =-)
moritz_ [Coke]: people not reading error messages is pretty noisy :-) 16:09
isBEKaml [Coke]: personally, I like fail-loud languages :)
jnthn [Coke]: Yes, but there's some signal here. ;-) 16:10
PerlJam isBEKaml: you must *love* Moose then! It gives a complete strack trace when things go wrong. 16:11
isBEKaml what's with nqp's response?
PerlJam er, s/strack/stack/
isBEKaml PerlJam: I haven't used p5 that much. Just some silly scripts here and there.
jnthn PerlJam: You almost make that sound like a bad thing?
moritz_ rakudo also has noisy stack traces
p6eval just strips them
jnthn Main problem is that Rakudo's give all the PIR level info 16:12
Rather than just the Perl 6 subs.
PerlJam jnthn: It's not bad, but sometimes it is annoying. 9 times out of 10, I don't need the full stack trace.
isBEKaml and stack traces aren't a bad thing per se. It's the ppl that code them to avoid problems. like passing over exceptions.
16:12 moritz_ sets mode: +oo PerlJam [Coke]
isBEKaml PerlJam: I have been using java and I use stack traces to print everywhere I catch exceptions when in development and remove them to just include loggin when they go live. :) 16:13
PerlJam I want a .perlrc file where I can tell it to be less verbose, but also remind me that I told it that and to suggest that I might want to be more verbose :) 16:14
isBEKaml or an environment variable? 16:15
PerlJam whatever the mechanism, I'm not picky
moritz_ btw test_summary.pl counted 32020 passing tests
Juerd PerlJam: In that case you get a compile time option! ;)
Sometimes it's better to be picky :P 16:16
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isBEKaml what? perl6 --help shows stagestats as one of its options but not on running.pod? :O 16:18
moritz_ patches welcome
isBEKaml moritz_: in that case, stagestats had either been removed or you'd have to tell me what they do. :) 16:19
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PerlJam isBEKaml: looks like time spent in each stage to me 16:20
moritz_ finds that pretty obvious from the output
isBEKaml Unable to open filehandle from path '--stagestats'
this is what i get
moritz_ ./perl6 --stagestats t/spec/S02-literals/quoting.rakudo
works here
PerlJam isBEKaml: are you sure you didn't misspell the option?
isBEKaml PerlJam: no. Was it added recently? 16:21
moritz_ yes
isBEKaml ah, time for compile and upgrade. :) 16:22
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moritz_ std: sub a($!) { } 16:45
p6eval std 30623: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 113m␤»
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diakopter most of us are rational? or each of us is usually rational? 16:57
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diakopter std: sub a($!!) { } 16:59
p6eval std 30623: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 111m␤»
diakopter std: sub a($!!) { !!$!!%!!$!!%$! } 17:02
p6eval std 30623: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 112m␤»
jnthn Ouch my eyes. :-P 17:03
arnsholt diakopter: I hate you =p
diakopter I see :)
rakudo: sub a($!!) { !!$!!%!!$!!%$! }; say a(&a) 17:06
p6eval rakudo f3998c: OUTPUT«Unable to bind attributive parameter '$!!' - could not find self␤current instr.: 'a' pc 193 (EVAL_1:78)␤»
jnthn ...creative.
rakudo: nice try :-) 17:07
p6eval rakudo f3998c: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "nice try :"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 501 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:327)␤»
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Tene looks at moritz_ 17:35
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moritz_ Tene: sorry, mis-hilighted you earlier 17:43
Tene moritz_: I know. Just harassing you.
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[Coke] rakudo: try nice; "ok" 18:02
p6eval rakudo f3998c: ( no output )
diakopter rakudo: say "ok" if try nice 18:07
p6eval rakudo f3998c: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in get_bool()␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
sorear isBEKaml: Due to a bug in rakudo (which moritz++ recently applied my fix for), --stagestats wasn't being parsed 18:08
jnthn:
buubot: karma jnthn
buubot sorear: jnthn has karma of 810
jnthn Ah, like that. :-)
buubot: karma jonathan
buubot jnthn: jonathan has karma of 397
18:08 lue left
jnthn I spread myself around. :-) 18:09
sorear it's a real shame @karma is gone; having written large parts of the @karma bot I have a couple hundred on file there ;)
jnthn Aww
buubot: karma sorear
buubot jnthn: sorear has karma of 64
jnthn Power of 2 win!
18:09 Trashlord joined 18:10 envi^home left
[Coke] jnthn++ # WOO! 18:16
# ... oh, wait.
diakopter TimToady: you may find this relevant: www.infoq.com/news/2010/05/STM-Dropped 18:20
ruoso: u2 ^^
jnthn [Coke]: :-P 18:25
cognominal buubot: karma gnole
buubot cognominal: gnole has karma of 1
cognominal stupid French pun, about a revolutionary dance and booze. :) 18:26
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pugssvn r30624 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Unfudge a tad. 19:05
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cognominal diaokopter: the ghc haskell people are partlly founded by MS, are they still found of STM? 19:32
*fond 19:33
colomon has decided it's worth deathmarching to 33,000 passing tests...
sjohnson y0 19:35
[Coke] colomon: This for trig stuff?
colomon nope, for everything. 19:36
right now we're just over 32,000 passing tests. 19:37
[Coke] oh, you should totally aim for 33,333, then!
colomon And I'm spectesting changes that will get us about 30 more. (in ceiling and floor)
mostly I'm hoping to have more passing than alpha used to before next week's release. 19:38
PerlJam colomon++
[Coke] rakudo: say 2**15
p6eval rakudo f3998c: OUTPUT«32768␤»
cognominal are the apps on proto using alpha or more recent rakudo? 19:40
colomon cognominal: yes
depends on the app. 19:41
may not be many that are off alpha yet.
cognominal ok
sorear I'd like to call Rakudo's "say" from within Perl6::Compiler. 19:57
But say is a "my" sub. 19:58
Should I make it "our" or is there a less bad way?
maybe I could just use $*OUT.say directly 20:00
colomon please try the last and let us know if it works... 20:05
:)
sorear if it works?
I'm supposed to read something in that statement but I can't tell what. 20:06
colomon say has been pretty hard to use in the core code lately, and if you've got a clever way I don't know about, I'm excited. but only if it actually works, rather than just being a clever idea.
pugssvn r30625 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Unfudge tests that now pass. 20:07
colomon I've been setting a global code variable and then assigning &say to it when I run tests. uuuuugly. 20:08
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sorear it works. 20:12
sorear wonders if $*AUTOPRINT should actually be &*AUTOPRINT and be able to override formatting 20:13
TimToady std: [reduce { $^b < 0 ?? $^a-$^b : $^a+$^b }, -5..5].perl.say 20:14
p6eval std 30624: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Precedence too loose within ??!!; use ??()!! instead at /tmp/WSMtoqmShK line 1:␤------> [reduce { $^b < 0 ?? $^a-$^b ⏏: $^a+$^b }, -5..5].perl.say␤ expecting an infix operator with precedence tighter than item assignment␤Parse
..f…
TimToady hmm, correct, but LTA
colomon sorear++: \o/
PerlJam would have no clue how to get from "precedence too loose" to "oh! I used a colon instead of !!" 20:17
[Coke] wonders if there is a limit as to how potentially helpful we can make the error messages. 20:18
[Coke] waits for a module that will just try to run your code and edit it with appropriate "did you mean" updates. 20:19
PerlJam [Coke]: the limit is our ability to guess a priori what programmers *might* do and provide a hint as to what they should do. 20:20
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sorear I spoke slightly too soon 20:31
my perl6 cannot run any code from files
[Coke] D'oh. 20:32
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pugssvn r30626 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Add tests for method forms. 20:39
diakopter cognominal: I don't know; probably. 20:45
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cognominal I have not checked recently, but spj was a STM advocate 20:55
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bkeeler That's because STM is easy in Haskell 20:56
ashleydev I'm not sure if this commentary on the discussion of currency and STM has been mixed in here, but I thought I'd bring it up: www.bluebytesoftware.com/blog/2010/...emory.aspx
bkeeler OH HAI #perl6!
ruoso hugme, hug ruoso 20:57
hugme hugs ruoso
ruoso too tired for a friday
jnthn bkeeler! \o/ 20:58
bkeeler Sorry I been scarce, it's been a hectic couple of weeks 21:04
colomon just added 100 passing tests the way that feels cheap.... :(
bkeeler Who knew that turning 40 was such an involved process? 21:05
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colomon bkeeler: oh no! what do I have to fear in the near future? 21:05
(for generous definitions of "near")
bkeeler Oh, big party, lots of guests, BBQ was going full swing for two days prior 21:06
Cooked nearly 50 pounds of meat
colomon bkeeler++++++!
jnthn Wow!!!
colomon you have a smoker?
bkeeler Yeah
Pulled pork, brisket, ribs etc
colomon drool
bkeeler The house is just now returning to normal 21:07
colomon I was just looking at a smoker on Amazon.com, and fantasizing...
bkeeler I recommend the pellet kind. Sooo easy to use
21:08 pmurias left
bkeeler drangle.com/~bruce/meatfest.jpg 21:09
Anyway, I figure its finally time to get back to the regex interpolation stuff 21:11
sorear Why is "eval" silent? 21:13
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jnthn bkeeler: Nice invite! :-D 21:20
sorear: Silent?
sorear rakudo: eval '$two'
p6eval rakudo e98866: ( no output )
jnthn What would you expect?
sorear rakudo: $two
p6eval rakudo e98866: OUTPUT«Symbol '$two' not predeclared in <anonymous>␤current instr.: 'perl6;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 152 (compilers/pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:108)␤»
jnthn Right, eval catches errors
sorear That's a disgusting p5ism
jnthn rakudo: eval '$two'; say $!
p6eval rakudo e98866: OUTPUT«Symbol '$two' not predeclared in <anonymous>␤» 21:21
jnthn ?
sorear Runtime evaluation and exception handling are orthogonal issues.
If I want try eval "", I should have to say try eval ""
It's not even that much longer
jnthn Well, then you're asking about the Perl 6 spec rather than Rakudo. :-) 21:22
I don't feel strongly either way.
And Rakudo can implement either.
sorear rakudo actually goes out of its way by a fair amount to implement implicit try
so there must be a good reason 21:23
jnthn It being the current spec and expectation is a good reason.
Now we have the blockless form of try though, it is pretty short to seperate the two out. 21:24
TimToady first let's count how many evals in the test suite would have to change to 'try eval' 21:28
colomon just added a few. 21:29
jnthn TimToady: A lot of things use eval_dies_ok and eval_lives_ok, which certainly would need to be changed.
TimToady: Though that's a test harness change rather than a test change.
sorear TimToady: some evals in the test suite are already try { eval }
21:29 ruoso left
sorear S02-builtin_data_types/anon_block.t :94 21:30
TimToady then there's the question of whether we can actually change Perl culture that much...
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TimToady on that topic, it'd be better to leave eval as is, and come up with a different word for the tryless kind 21:31
jnthn
.oO( compile )
Though that sounds like it doesn't run it
bkeeler A version that doesn't run it could be useful though 21:32
jnthn True 21:33
compile('foo').() # bit ugly though.
arnsholt my &code = compile('foo') might be nice though 21:35
jnthn yeah
arnsholt Stuff like mod_perl wrapping CGI scripts would probably like it 21:36
sorear rakudo: my &code = Perl6::Compiler.compile('say "Hello"'); code; 21:38
p6eval rakudo e98866: OUTPUT«Hello␤»
arnsholt Quick to implement too it appears =) 21:39
moritz_ rakudo: my &code = Perl6::Compiler.compile('say "Hello"'); say "compiled"; code(); code() 21:40
p6eval rakudo e98866: OUTPUT«compiled␤Hello␤Hello␤»
sorear Does anybody else see failures with S02-magicals/progname.t ?
It doesn't look like any of my changes should have had an effect there 21:41
colomon sorear: not here.
moritz_ recompiles
sorear rakudo: $*PROGRAM_NAME ~~ /./
p6eval rakudo e98866: ( no output ) 21:42
sorear rakudo: say $*PROGRAM_NAME
p6eval rakudo e98866: OUTPUT«/tmp/dzElm34En4␤»
sorear huh.
moritz_ you didn't say anything in the first eval
jnthn rakudo: say $*PROGRAM_NAME ~~ /./
p6eval rakudo e98866: OUTPUT«/␤»
sorear yes
I know
however, $*PROGRAM_NAME doesn't exist here!
I seem to have magically broken whatever is supposed to set it 21:43
pugssvn r30627 | lwall++ | [STD.pm6] do a bit better at diagnosing bogus ??!! constructs of various sorts 21:44
cognominal what is the story on the := operator in rakudo?
moritz_ NYI in master. 21:45
that's a short story :-)
21:45 ashleydev left
moritz_ though I think binding to a a scalar, hash or array shouldn't be too hard - it's already implemented for signatures 21:46
binding to a hash or array item could be harder
cognominal ok. 21:47
sorear really, the hardest part is parsing
moritz_ it's parsed already 21:48
sorear the LHS of := has to be parsed as an expression then turned into a signature
moritz_ for some value of "parsed"
jnthn sorear: Not really.
sorear and we can't currently do that except in very limited cases
jnthn sorear: At least, that's not the plan I heard for implementing it.
sorear jnthn: What complicated plan was that? 21:49
rakudo: my $a; my $b; Q:PIR { $P0 = find_lex "$a" ␤ store_lex "$b", $P0 }; $a = 5; say $b
jnthn sorear: Something fun involving object refs and in-place upgrade or something. It makes sense every time pmichaud++ explains it to me. :-)
p6eval rakudo e98866: OUTPUT«5␤»
sorear see, we have the backend technology for binding RIGHT NOW 21:50
pmichaud: why am I wrong?
jnthn sorear: We could perhaps maybe doing it that way.
*do
sorear does anyone see any spectest failures at the moment? 21:52
moritz_ last time I tried I saw a lot '1' exit codes 21:53
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sorear S04-statements/return.t looks like a case of "how could this work" 21:53
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sorear rakudo: eval 'return 1'; say $! 21:59
p6eval rakudo e98866: OUTPUT«␤»
sorear rakudo: use Test; eval_dies_ok 'return 1' 22:01
p6eval rakudo e98866: OUTPUT«ok 1 - ␤»
moritz_ rakudo: my $x = eval 'return 1'; say $!.Bool; say $x.perl
p6eval rakudo e98866: OUTPUT«1␤()␤»
moritz_ eval_dies_ok probably uses the old perl 5 trick
no 22:02
sorear This is amazing.
moritz_ try { eval ($code); $eval_exception = $! }
sorear 'return 1' throws a return exception
it's caught by the blanket handler in eval
which stores the 1 in $!
I think
rakudo: my $x = eval 'return 0'; say $!.Bool; 22:03
p6eval rakudo e98866: OUTPUT«1␤»
jnthn sorear: Sounds plausible.
moritz_ rakudo: my $x = eval 'return 0'; say $!
p6eval rakudo e98866: OUTPUT«␤»
jnthn Well
Plausible that it's catching the return exception. 22:04
sorear Anyway, when I simplified eval to use $compiler.eval instead of $compiler.compile; #`( stuff that eval does itself these days ); $code()
it stopped working
jnthn Must be some subtle difference between them. 22:05
moritz_ the difference in scope of the $code() call?
sorear moritz_: and the return exception handler
extra handler 22:06
moritz_ for example in Perl 6 there are the $_, $/ and $! magical vars automatically set up
sorear they're set up from OUTER, not CALLER
and the OUTER will be the same here
src/cheats/eval.pm uses a blanket exception handler; it will catch return exceptions and put them in $! 22:07
moritz_ t/spec/S06-signature/named-parameters.rakudo (Wstat: 11 Tests: 82 Failed: 0) Non-zero wait status: 11 Parse errors: No plan found in TAP output 22:08
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moritz_ that's the only fail in my spectest that's not just non-zero exit status 22:09
off to bed, good night() to near UTCish people :-)
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lue AUGCAUAUUUAA! 22:45
hello? 22:50
saaki echo echo echo 22:53
lue XKCD-inspired Wikipedia war: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malamanteau (check out the discussion tab) 22:55
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lue is getting really annoyed that whenever he comes to #perl6 lately, it's dead silent. 22:59
bkeeler *crickets* 23:00
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pmichaud no, the lhs of := does not have to be a signature. TimToady clarified that a short time ago. 23:07
lue Just Mu, right? 23:09
23:10 nimiezko left
lue starts wondering about less defined than Mu. 23:10
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lue
.oO(a portmanteau, malapropism, and neologism... malamanteau is awesome!)
 23:18
23:20 kensanata left
saaki heh 23:20
jnthn The discussion page was, like, almost YouTube comment page quality.
bkeeler In pir, what happens if you call 'iter' on something that's not an array, or otherwise iterable? 23:22
sorear demons fly out of your nose
bkeeler Sounds painful
sorear you can't do anything with a PMC unless you know exactly what APIs the PMC is written to
a PMC is allowed to interpret any operation in any way 23:23
most non-iterable PMCs will probably use the 'default' iter, which throws an exception
jnthn bkeeler: The boring answer that doesn't involve nose demons is that you'll get an error about get_iterator not being implemented in a PMC of type worreva. :-)
sorear but you can't count on that :/ 23:24
jnthn You can't count on nose demons either. ;-)
bkeeler Any way to find out if it does support get_iterator?
jnthn bkeeler: not afaik
sorear If you have a PMC without knowing what it is, you're already doing something wrong
jnthn sorear: Well...or the set of things it could be, anyway. 23:25
sorear trace that PMC backward; where it enters your code, slap an interface comment
jnthn: sure, all thet matters is you need to require an interface 23:26
lue
.oO(EPMCDESIGNFLAW)
jnthn bkeeler: A Perl 6 thing will have a .iterator method and do the Iterable role.
bkeeler Indeed. I'm in nqp-land right now though
sorear it doesn't make sense to say "this function takes an arbitrary PMC" (unless it's just storing them)
it does make sense to say "this function takes an arbitrary PMC which either iterates like an array or throws an exception in iter" 23:27
lue afk (whilst thinking about malamanteaus) 23:38
sorear we have 1,000+ tests for cosine? 23:50
jnthn Well, that's 'cos... ;-) 23:52
sorear: Well, when you consider boundary conditions + the various Perl 6 number types (int, num, complex, rat)..and then do something combinatorial...you easily get a lot of tests. 23:53
sjohnson hello all 23:57
jnthn o/ sjohnson 23:58
sjohnson （　｀ー´） 23:59

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