»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 25 June 2013.
lizmat more like sleepcrawling :-) 00:00
timotimo :)
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timotimo oh damn, i didn't map it properly :( 00:04
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timotimo ah, i found where i had missed the mapping, in nqp itself! 00:08
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colomon building latest rakudo gives me a broken executable. :( 02:34
Missing or wrong version of dependency 'gen/parrot/stage2/QRegex.nqp' 02:35
current instr.: '' pc 952 (src/gen/perl6.pir:336) (gen/parrot/main.nqp:58)
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colomon complete rebuild fixed it. 03:31
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segomos where is moarvm these days? 05:29
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FROGGS segomos: pretty good on its way actually 06:10
segomos: when building rakudo it passes stage parse but explodes in the optimizer due to NYI ops 06:11
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jnthn yawns 07:50
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FROGGS jnthn: what do you yawn for? :o) 07:55
good morning all
moritz \o 07:56
jnthn FROGGS: 'cus it's morning
FROGGS ahh, I forgot :P
hi moritz
jnthn oh, THAT's why the 30 min walk to teaching felt chilly... 07:57
it's -6
FROGGS nice
jnthn yes, though probably hat and gloves woulda been wise :) 07:58
FROGGS -3 here
moritz FROGGS: I've given you a rakudo.org account
jnthn ok, gotta teach; bbl
FROGGS ohh
jnthn: have fun
moritz: so I'd be able to fix the guide?
moritz anybody else need one? (like, for publishing release announcements or fixing docs on rakudo.org)?
FROGGS: I dearly hope so :-)
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timotimo o/ 08:59
masak good antenoon, #perl6 09:00
FROGGS[mobile] morning 09:01
masak good mobile morning to you, FROGGS. 09:02
timotimo maybe i'll have a closer look at newexception on moarvm today
skipping the optimizer gives clearer instructions on what's next.
masak nice.
timotimo though newexception being needed could hint at "something in the logic is going wrong, such that it wants to throw an exception"
masak if I have time today, I will do either t4 reviewing, or start looking at the event framework needed to get Nomic off the ground.
timotimo which could be benign, like a missing op causing not an ad-hoc exception, but a "real" exception this time
cool :) 09:03
and i'll go pick up my in-ear headphones
i'm fed up with those hand-me-down ipod earplugs that keep falling out of my left ear every minute >_<
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jnthn timotimo: I expect somewhere uses nqp::newexception 09:20
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timotimo jnthn: i expect that, too. the question is, is it an exception that points to a bigger problem than just ops missing, like some op misbehaving or even worse, or if it's totally benign ;) 09:39
i guess i'll only find out once i implement it.
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jnthn timotimo: What was the exact error? 09:47
timotimo Error while compiling op newexception: MoarVM op 'newexception' is unknown as a core or extension op 09:49
at gen/moar/stage2/QAST.nqp:4105 (/home/timo/build/rakudo/install/languages/nqp/lib/QAST.moarvm:frame_name_1131:21)
from gen/moar/stage2/QAST.nqp:4103 (/home/timo/build/rakudo/install/languages/nqp/lib/QAST.moarvm:as_mast:70)
jnthn Yeah, don't think it's trying to throw, just compile an nqp::newexception 09:50
timotimo ah, sounds good
now i'll just have to figure out how to work the hllconfig of moar
is there another op that demonstrates?
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jnthn hllboxtype maybe 09:53
uh...or something like that
of hllize
timotimo thanks :) 09:55
would the op go in core/exception.c?
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arnsholt Do we have any tests, either in NQP or Rakudo, that exercise sockets? 10:13
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timotimo there's a test in rakudo, aye 10:14
FROGGS arnsholt: S32-IO_Socket-INET.t?
timotimo it is usually the test that takes the longest :|
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FROGGS preflex: tell ajr_ it works on my box: gist.github.com/FROGGS/7582ad250ea...l-txt-L349 10:15
preflex Consider it noted.
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FROGGS jnthn: btw, you can merge cursor-mem-opts into master 10:16
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timotimo i don't really understand how the concepts i see in the jvm implementation of newexception map to moarvm 10:22
but if it calls newexception, it probably also directly calls setpayload and setmessage and friends
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timotimo huh, the line in question just calls "die" 10:24
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timotimo shouldn't that work already? 10:24
oh, haha
that part does work
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FROGGS maybe it happens when creating the X::AdHoc? 10:25
timotimo no, nqp::die works. it's just dieing with the message "unable to compile op 'newexception'" 10:26
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hoelzro morning #perl6 10:37
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hoelzro I'm looking over jnthn.net/papers/2013-npw-conc.pdf 10:37
and trying to understand slide 25
(nth_or_timeout 4)
timotimo i can help with that
hoelzro I understand the bit about checking the timeout promise in the for loop
but after the check, I see $result = @source[$n] 10:38
and that line confuses me
timotimo ah, easy enough
hoelzro wouldn't that just fetch @source[$n] $n times?
timotimo @source is supposed to be a lazy evaluated list that does some computation each time you get a new item
hoelzro is it supposed to be @source[$_]?
timotimo oh, hah
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timotimo yeah, you're right 10:38
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hoelzro ok, I thought I was missing something! 10:39
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jnthn FROGGS: You can merge cursor-mem-opts into master too :P 11:01
FROGGS jnthn: yes, now I can :o)
jnthn ;) 11:02
dalek p: 3b28064 | jonathan++ | src/QRegex/ (2 files):
Be more eager to throw out things we'll not need.

This saves memory and eases the GC's role, especially as we keep hold of a lot less call frames.
p: ef756d4 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/QRegex/ (2 files):
Merge branch 'cursor-mem-opts' of github.com:perl6/nqp
FROGGS - [deleted] cursor-mem-opts 11:04
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masak perl6: label1: say "OH HAI"; label1: say "OH NOES" 11:40
camelia rakudo-parrot 60c8c1, rakudo-jvm 60c8c1: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤OH NOES␤»
..niecza v24-98-g473bd20: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Illegal redeclaration of symbol 'label1' (see line 1) at /tmp/jjMkfXZYjO line 1:␤------> label1: say "OH HAI"; label1: ⏏say "OH NOES"␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6ev…»
masak submits rakudobug 11:41
FROGGS masak: I've fixed that in nqp in my branch fwiw
masak what a wonderful coincidence.
it's been too long since I submitted a good rakudobug. 11:42
you guys need to put more bugs in the code so I can submit them! :P
FROGGS :(
there are too many open bugs
masak s/guys/guys, gals, and bots/
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FROGGS I'll introduce some when we have less then a hundred :o) 11:42
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masak deal. 11:43
I wonder when we last had less than a hundred... 11:44
sometime in 2008, I bet.
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moritz in the days before the masak 11:50
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carlin hi all, I've been out of the perl6 loop for a while... is rakudo on parrot still the way to go? 11:54
moritz carlin: depends on what you want to do :-)
carlin: rakudo-parrot still has the best module support, but rakudo-jvm now does proper threads and async stuff 11:55
the patch in RT 120630 has this hunk 11:56
-p-runner-default-install: p-all
+p-runner-default-install: p-all | $(DESTDIR)$(PARROT_BIN_DIR)
what does the | mean, and do non-gnu makes understand it?
carlin I guess I'll go with parrot for now since it's what I was familar with 11:57
moritz carlin: the good news is, you can now build rakudo-parrot and rakudo-jvm from the same source dir, and install them alongside 11:58
perl Configure.pl --backends=parrot,jvm --gen-parrot 11:59
timotimo that's for nqp, though, right? or do you not have to --gen-nqp for that?
moritz that's for rakudo 12:01
and gen-parrot implies gen-nqp
timotimo that's good
arnsholt moritz: | DEPS just makes sure that the DEPS exist, it doesn't check timestamps 12:07
Useful for creating directories and such 12:08
Probably a GNU extension
timotimo does gdb offer something like time travel? regular checkpoints? so we could see what the last ops were that were called? 12:09
moritz I wonder if we shouldn't just always create the directory in that target, and be done
arnsholt timotimo: The GDB term for it is reverse debugging 12:11
It's supported, but logging all the required information takes up quite a bit of memory, so I doubt you'll be able to use it on a setting compilation
I had trouble using it on anything with Rakudo/Parrot 12:12
timotimo mhm
can it selectively be activated late-ish?
arnsholt Not sure 12:13
But you can walk the stack in GDB
That can often help
timotimo i know about that part
arnsholt Sometimes knowing where the NULL pointer originates is an important clue
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timotimo the advent calendar is going to start real soon 12:43
moritz \o/
I could do the "State of Perl 6" post, or claim Dec 02 with a to-be-determined topic 12:44
what do you folks prefer?
tadzik I think you're the right person to do the State of Perl 6 :) 12:45
moritz thanks :-) 12:46
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dalek : fe6fa2f | moritz++ | misc/perl6advent-2013/schedule:
[advent] claim Dec 01, SoP6
 12:46
timotimo already wrote 0 bytes on my experiences of contributing during the first year 12:48
moritz timotimo: then I recommend exponential progression :-) 12:51
diakopter timotimo: better than 10000000000000000000000000000000000 bytes, I guess
or negative byts.
timotimo :)
diakopter timotimo++ # moar progression 12:52
timotimo (by a tiny bit)
i don't see what i have to do to make newexception and friends work
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dalek ecs: 0f9df8a | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-setting-library/Containers.pod:
Change the listless map into a Whatever map
 13:23
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dalek kudo/nom: b4cd1da | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Any.pm:
Transmogrify listless map into Whatever map
 13:32
moritz lizmat++ # epic commit messages 13:34
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dalek kudo/nom: e5fd34e | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/vm/jvm/core/Channel.pm:
Channel.list now uses Whatever map
 13:59
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masak +1 # moritz++ doing "State of Perl 6" 14:08
colomon +1 indeed 14:23
arnsholt Does anyone happen to know about how frequently donaldh stops by here? 14:29
lizmat preflex: seen donaldh 14:33
preflex donaldh was last seen on #perl6 28 days, 2 hours, 23 minutes and 17 seconds ago, saying: does anyone know a FAX number for TPF ?
atroxaper What is the magic eval slurp($file.path) ~ "\n\$=pod"; ? What is $=pod mean and how does it work? 14:34
arnsholt Not very often then. In that case I'll try to decipher his readline code 14:35
masak hehe, Crockford in www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgwSUtYSUqA demos "loop { ... }", and says it's a pity JavaScript doesn't have it. :) 14:39
(he doesn't mention Perl 6 by name, but I haven't seen "loop { ... }" in any other language, I think)
moritz atroxaper: slurp() just reads the whole file 14:40
atroxaper: and ~ "\n\$=pod" appends a newline, and then the string $=pod
atroxaper: and $=pod contains a data structure with the whole pod of this compilation unit
Woodi hallo :) 14:42
masak Woodi! \o/
lizmat masak: FWIW, "loop" was in TenCORE, afair 14:43
atroxaper moritz: thanks. I didn't know that $=pod can help eval to parse pod file. Are there another methods for making pod structure from file or is it good one? 14:44
Woodi I wonder do Perl6 want to include "suspend to disk" feature.. something like Smalltalk: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk#Im...ersistence 14:45
moritz atroxaper: I didn't find a better way, which is why I wrote the line you quoted above 14:46
atroxaper: I don't find it very nice though
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atroxaper moritz: ok. Just to know. 14:48
Woodi and btw. can we have something like: class Object is frankenstained with Thread { ... } # :)
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FROGGS Woodi: everything you put in a BEGIN block is "suspended to disk" 14:50
Woodi I assume we can have thousands and thousands of VM threads like in Erlang or Go... 14:51
FROGGS: precompiled ? right :)
FROGGS Woodi: only when you compile it, correct 14:52
Woodi but seems nice to have feature like: kill -SIGSUSPENS perl6prog 14:54
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Woodi "=date col1 col2 col3" ~~ m/^ '=date' [\s(\S+)]+/; say @$/.join(':'); 14:59
r: "=date col1 col2 col3" ~~ m/^ '=date' [\s(\S+)]+/; say @$/.join(':');
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34, rakudo-jvm e5fd34: OUTPUT«col1:col2:col3␤»
Woodi it works this way but can someone help me with grammar for that line format ? especially how to say @$result from grammar... 15:01
I have something like this: pastebin.com/Dw6R7NuB 15:02
moritz rule colname { $<colname>=(\S+) } 15:03
you can just write token colname { \S+ }
and the mere fact that you call it as <colname> generates a named capture alreay
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FROGGS rp: "=date col1 col2 col3" ~~ m:s/^ '=date' (\S+)+ % \s /; say @$/.join(':'); 15:04
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34: OUTPUT«col1:col2:col3␤»
Woodi ok, I will try this
FROGGS rp: grammar Header { rule TOP { '=data ' <cs> $ }; rule cs { <cn>+ % \s }; rule colname { \S+ } }; say Header.parse("=date col1 col2 col3") 15:06
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34: OUTPUT«#<failed match>␤»
FROGGS :( 15:07
rp: grammar Header { rule TOP { '=data ' <cs> $ }; rule cs { <cn>+ % \s }; rule cn { \S+ } }; say Header.parse("=date col1 col2 col3")
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34: OUTPUT«#<failed match>␤»
FROGGS rp: grammar Header { rule TOP { '=data ' <cs> $ }; token cs { <cn>+ % \s }; rule cn { \S+ } }; say Header.parse("=date col1 col2 col3") 15:08
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34: OUTPUT«#<failed match>␤»
FROGGS arrgg! 15:09
rp: grammar Header { rule TOP { '=data ' <cs> $ }; rule cs { <cn>+ % \s }; rule cn { \S+ } }; say Header.parse("=data col1 col2 col3")
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34: OUTPUT«#<failed match>␤»
FROGGS rp: grammar Header { rule TOP { '=data ' <cs> }; rule cs { <cn>+ % \s }; rule cn { \S+ } }; say Header.parse("=data col1 col2 col3") 15:10
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34: OUTPUT«｢=data col1 ｣␤ cs => ｢col1 ｣␤ cn => ｢col1 ｣␤␤»
FROGGS rp: grammar Header { rule TOP { '=data ' <cs> }; token cs { <cn>+ % \s }; token cn { \S+ } }; say Header.parse("=data col1 col2 col3")
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34: OUTPUT«｢=data col1 col2 col3｣␤ cs => ｢col1 col2 col3｣␤ cn => ｢col1｣␤ cn => ｢col2｣␤ cn => ｢col3｣␤␤»
FROGGS rp: grammar Header { rule TOP { '=data ' <cs> $ }; token cs { <cn>+ % \s }; token cn { \S+ } }; say Header.parse("=data col1 col2 col3") 15:11
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34: OUTPUT«｢=data col1 col2 col3｣␤ cs => ｢col1 col2 col3｣␤ cn => ｢col1｣␤ cn => ｢col2｣␤ cn => ｢col3｣␤␤»
FROGGS good, so I am not stupid :o)
sorry for the spam
Woodi about frankenstaining objects :) : everyone is looking for composability in general case, for N threads, etc... I think we should start with 2 or 3 threads sharing memory/work. Boss is delegating work and shares documents with few assistants... Then we should make TEAM of objects/threads sharing data and threads outside of team should lock/be messaged...
thank you FROGGS, now I have my problem resolved :) 15:12
FROGGS Woodi: yw, now you have to pick an RT ticket instead :P 15:13
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FROGGS btw, the problem was the the *rule* cn eats up whitespace 15:14
where a token does not
Woodi becouse our programs emulate humanity :) human read book, human slurp coffe, human smokes... but computers (with many cores) are not humans, they are more like ZOO animals: they are all spawned at program start... 15:15
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Woodi EOSCIFI :), thinking on, dreaming off :) 15:15
what % in <cn>+ % \s means ? 15:17
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FROGGS look a the symbol % 15:18
it is a thing, divided by another thing 15:19
so it is: <cn> split by \s
Woodi Perl6 grammar have split build in ? :)
FROGGS and the + is just a quantifier like in other positions too 15:20
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FROGGS no, it is just about token repetition with a thing in between 15:20
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FROGGS rp: say "ababa" ~~ / a+ % b / 15:21
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34: OUTPUT«｢ababa｣␤␤»
FROGGS rp: say "ababa" ~~ / $<thing>=a+ % $<divider>=b /
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34: OUTPUT«｢ababa｣␤ thing => ｢ababa｣␤ divider => ｢b｣␤ divider => ｢b｣␤␤»
FROGGS rp: say "ababa" ~~ / [$<thing>=a]+ % $<divider>=b / 15:22
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34: OUTPUT«｢ababa｣␤ thing => ｢a｣␤ divider => ｢b｣␤ thing => ｢a｣␤ divider => ｢b｣␤ thing => ｢a｣␤␤»
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Woodi hmm, is something like $r.perl.prettyprint available maybe ? :) 15:42
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Woodi rp: grammar Header { rule TOP { '=date ' <cn>+ % \s+ $ }; token cn { \S+ } }; my $r = Header.parse( '=date col1 col2 col3' ); say @(%$r{'cn'}).join(':'); 16:00
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34: OUTPUT«col1:col2:col3␤»
Woodi this work but 'say @(%$r{'cn'}).join(':');' part is not nice...
FROGGS rp: grammar Header { rule TOP { '=date ' <cn>+ % \s+ $ }; token cn { \S+ } }; my $r = Header.parse( '=date col1 col2 col3' ); say $r<cn>.values.join(':'); 16:01
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34: OUTPUT«col1:col2:col3␤»
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FROGGS rp: grammar Header { rule TOP { '=date ' <cn>+ % \s+ $ }; token cn { \S+ } }; my $r = Header.parse( '=date col1 col2 col3' ); say @($r<cn>).join(':'); 16:02
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34: OUTPUT«col1:col2:col3␤»
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FROGGS rp: grammar Header { rule TOP { '=date ' <cn>+ % \s+ $ }; token cn { \S+ } }; my $r = Header.parse( '=date col1 col2 col3' ); say join(':', @$r<cn>); 16:02
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34: OUTPUT«postcircumfix:<{ }> not defined for type List␤ in method Str at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:12003␤ in method Str at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:996␤ in method join at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:1593␤ in sub join at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:1781␤ in su…»
FROGGS err, ok
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japhb_ Another variant use case for blobs: Blob.subbuf() should be a constant-time, memory sharing operation. 16:12
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dalek -pb: 49074a5 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | lib/Metamodel/Perlable.pm:
Only use .container_descriptor if method exists
 17:50
p6-pb: 5c7c5dd | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | lib/Metamodel/Perlable.pm:
p6-pb: Don't try to .perl a non-PerlableAttribute
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TimToady lizmat: I still don't see how "map {}, *" is better than just "{} xx *" 17:51
jnthn TimToady: You can use "last" with map when you're done; how do you say you're done with {} xx * ? 17:52
TimToady point
jnthn TimToady: Also, does {} xx * not actually produced a bunc of closures? :)
r: say ({ 42 } xx *)[^5].perl 17:53
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34, rakudo-jvm e5fd34: OUTPUT«(Block.new(), Block.new(), Block.new(), Block.new(), Block.new())␤»
jnthn Yeah...
Though I dunno if that's spec or accident ;)
I just know it's what it does :)
TimToady seems rightish
but then, of course, simply loop {} is specced to work like that in lazy context 17:55
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jnthn Um...it is? 17:58
I knew, though never felt keen to implement, the thing where the loop keeps all its results... 17:59
...didn't really think that would need laziness to get involved too
Feels like we're asking for the same trouble as for. Or maybe you need the parens around it like for?
TimToady S04:371 has been in there from time immemorial 18:00
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S04.html#line_371
TimToady use at statment level just makes it eager, unless it's in sink context, in which case you can not produce any values 18:01
jnthn Well, that doesn't say anything about laziness...
TimToady all lists are lazy by default :) 18:02
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jnthn Ugh. It's a good bit harder to efficiently implement these when they gotta deal with laziness 18:03
Or maybe the insight is, if I'm going to code-gen the lazy case completely different from the sink case, I'll just got ahead and do that for "for" also :) 18:04
*go
TimToady that was the original idea; sink context is generally known at compile time 18:07
jnthn OK. So seems like we just need loop { ... } up to spec 18:11
jnthn looks forward to working on this; also to doing great evil with for :P 18:12
Which I hope will make most cases of it faster.
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TimToady loop in eager context probably deserves a warning, so maybe we end up with "lazy loop {...}" or an appropriately listy return type 18:14
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TimToady I believe lazy is specced as a statement prefix...yeah 18:15
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lizmat is back from cycling 18:21
fwiw, map {} feels more natural to me than loop {} 18:22
map means returning values to me, loop doesn't
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TimToady map is a correspondence, and you're missing one end of it 18:23
lizmat that's why I respecced with Whatever, so there *would* something at the other end, at least conceptually 18:24
*be
sub foo { loop {} }; my @a=foo; foo; # how would we know at compile time whether or not to return values? 18:26
composability would dictate that sub foo would be generated only in one way, with return values, to accommodate the first call, right? 18:27
benabik You would always return values, just one of them would be discarded.
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TimToady statement level loops are never lazy now 18:27
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TimToady we could either warn on a last-less loop, or make that one default to sink instead of eager 18:28
lizmat so, in the case of Channel.list, you would use a loop {} instead of a map {} ?
TimToady or "lazy loop {}"
there's really not much use for an eager loop {} unless there's a last in it :) 18:29
since it would chew up all your memory 18:30
moritz or an exit, or a return
TimToady but I'm inclined to change the default on statement loop from eager to sink
lizmat well, I guess I'll have to reprogram my brain to look at "loop" as a thing returning values
timotimo or a goto to an outer label
TimToady well, any exception, really 18:31
so changing the default looks saner
you might be able to argue me into extending that to 'while', but probably not to 'for' :) 18:32
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PerlJam moritz++ (Advent day 1 :) 18:33
FROGGS I just hope that this does not break too much code :o)
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TimToady how many people are using 'while' loops to return values without gather/take? 18:36
not many, I think
jnthn TimToady: I'd really like it if for sunk by default in statementlist :) 18:37
moritz well, people put while-loops as the last statement in a routine, and then expect to return() from it
jnthn TimToady: I think that's better than eager + a warning. 18:38
TimToady: It'd avoid memory-hungry accidents too 18:39
TimToady: Personally I'd tend towards using map all the time I wanted to convey "I'm returning stuff"
moritz +1
jnthn TimToady: Or shove a "lazy for ..." in to be clear. 18:40
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moritz we should just says that loop and while and for always return Nil by default 18:40
jnthn *at statement level*, yes
moritz aye
jnthn statementlist, that is
18:43 ajr_ left
dalek ecs: 2772066 | larry++ | S04-control.pod:
all loops but 'for' default to sink

At statement level, all loops used to default to eager. That behavior is now reserved to 'for' loops, and all other statement loops default to 'sink'.		 18:45
jnthn Dang...so close... :(
TimToady chaning for would break existing code :)
*ng
jnthn It'd probably bring down the memory use of even more code :P 18:46
18:46 eternaleye left
PerlJam
.oO( Are we starting to worry about backcompat now? ;-)
 18:46
TimToady well, I know changing 'for' would break some rosettacode entries... 18:47
jnthn TimToady: At statementlist level? 18:48
Hmmm
TimToady might be worth it, but we'd also have to change eager into a statement prefix, to go with lazy 18:49
jnthn It's not today?
Just a function?
TimToady r: say eager {...}.WHAT 18:50
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34, rakudo-jvm e5fd34: OUTPUT«(Block)␤»
TimToady just a function
r: say lazy {...}.WHAT
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/YOdEcqvZfz␤Undeclared routine:␤ lazy used at line 1␤␤»
..rakudo-jvm e5fd34: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/1F0ylWEpBt␤Undeclared routine:␤ lazy used at line 1␤␤»
TimToady 'course, that's better than not existing at all :P
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FROGGS I'd think we should care more about the few modules we have rather then rosettacode example we can edit 18:51
jnthn FROGGS: True.
TimToady I'd think we should care more about the millions of people who will write code someday, not the few who have done so already 18:52
FROGGS that is true too
jnthn I'm pretty sure none of the ones I've written depend on for returning a result, fwiw.
'cus I'm pretty sure I'd not write it like that...
But that's just one data point :)
FROGGS yeah
and a P5er would not do that either
jnthn Well, it's not like we don't smoke the modules... :) 18:53
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jnthn puffs on Rakudo::Debugger, and takes a long draw on Bailador... 18:53
.oO( I think this means I need dinner... :) )
 18:54
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dalek ecs: 96e17b9 | larry++ | S04-control.pod:
add eager as a statement prefix
 18:56
diakopter keyword all the things 18:57
dalek kudo/moar-support: 826f2b3 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/World.nqp:
Add a missing null check.
FROGGS .oO( Do we always have to call it "thing" Jim? ) 18:58
diakopter jnthn: theoretically, can NQP do this? (nqp::getattr($_, $code_type, '$!compstuff') || [])[0] 19:00
jnthn diakopter: Not if it's null
the boolification will choke on the null
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diakopter nqp-m: say($*h || []) 19:01
camelia nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«cannot stringify this␤frame_name_8␤»
diakopter nqp-p: say($*h || [])
camelia nqp-parrot: OUTPUT«0␤»
diakopter nqp-j: say($*h || [])
jnthn nqp-j: say($*h || [])
camelia nqp-jvm: OUTPUT«Cannot stringify this␤ in (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPCORE.setting:672)␤ in print (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPCORE.setting:671)␤ in say (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPCORE.setting:678)␤ in (/tmp/_8zqD221xW:1)␤ in (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1100)␤ in eval (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHL…» 19:02
nqp-jvm: OUTPUT«Cannot stringify this␤ in (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPCORE.setting:672)␤ in print (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPCORE.setting:671)␤ in say (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPCORE.setting:678)␤ in (/tmp/PVA4k1pxWM:1)␤ in (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1100)␤ in eval (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHL…»
jnthn There we go :)
diakopter moar did that too
jnthn Right :)
JVM and Moar agree. Parrot is the odd one out.
FROGGS yeah, why does the perl6-j actually build?!
diakopter don't know why moar's stack traces sometimes are truncated to camelia
jnthn How old is it?
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jnthn I fixed that bug a while back.. 19:03
diakopter dunno; I thought it was auto-updating, maybe it isnt
jnthn Or a bug in that area
FROGGS nqp-m: say(nqp::backendonfig<version>)
camelia nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«Error while compiling op backendonfig (source text: "nqp::backendonfig"): No registered operation handler for 'backendonfig'␤frame_name_1109␤»
FROGGS nqp-m: say(nqp::backendconfig<version>)
camelia nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«2013.10-120-gb08a229␤»
dalek ecs: beef8e6 | larry++ | S04-control.pod:
Okay, statement 'for' is now also sunk.

Now Perl 6 is perfect.
FROGGS 2013.10-167-g0f2ec7
47 commits behind
<dalek> specs: Now Perl 6 is perfect. \o/ 19:04
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diakopter std: lazy eager lazy eager lazy eager 3 19:04
camelia std 8370f3f: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 123m␤»
jnthn TimToady++ \o/
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FROGGS sad the he didn't meant the implementation *g* 19:04
diakopter pugs: lazy eager lazy eager lazy eager 3 19:05
camelia pugs: OUTPUT«*** Cannot cast from VList [VInt 3] to VCode (VCode)␤ at /tmp/7y33SDZ7iw line 1, column 23 - line 2, column 1␤»
diakopter p: lazy eager lazy eager lazy eager 3
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/UIefyVxOCF␤Undeclared routine:␤ lazy used at line 1␤␤»
diakopter j: lazy eager lazy eager lazy eager 3
camelia rakudo-jvm e5fd34: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/TNXtlkQNfB␤Undeclared routine:␤ lazy used at line 1␤␤»
19:05 bluescreen10 joined
jnthn really dinner & 19:05
dalek d: 3b262af | larry++ | STD.pm6:
add statement_prefix:eager
 19:06
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dalek p: c8b4012 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/moar/QAST/QASTOperationsMAST.nqp:
mapped nqp::replace
 19:16
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TimToady j: $*POSIX.tap({ .say }); await start { alarm 1 } 19:23
camelia rakudo-jvm e5fd34: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/0RAnQaLPwS␤Undeclared routine:␤ alarm used at line 1␤␤»
TimToady aww
j: $*POSIX.tap({ .say }); kill 1, $*PID; 19:24
camelia rakudo-jvm e5fd34: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/0ux4eOKUBU␤Undeclared routine:␤ kill used at line 1␤␤»
TimToady aww
j: $*POSIX.tap({ .say }); sleep 1 19:25
camelia rakudo-jvm e5fd34: OUTPUT«Dynamic variable $*POSIX not found␤ in any find_method_fallback at gen/jvm/Metamodel.nqp:2607␤ in any find_method at gen/jvm/Metamodel.nqp:945␤ in block at /tmp/ngk33UliQd:1␤ in any eval at gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1086␤ in any evalfiles at…»
itz_ /last state 19:26
oops
TimToady hmm, that traceback seems to be exposing a little more mechanism than the user is likely interested in
well, better too much than too little, I suppose... 19:27
but speaking of $*POSIX, we seem to need some mechanism for telling the system which signals we're really interested in, so that every process doesn't have to trap every signal 19:29
oh, and the name "$*POSIX" is too general :)
FROGGS what about $*POSIGNAL ? :o) 19:30
TimToady is grumpy today for some reason...
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TimToady you think that's cute today... 19:30
FROGGS maybe more like POSIKNAL
k is a good compromise for X <=> G
TimToady that's not even cute today :P
FROGGS hehe, exactly 19:31
TimToady thinks that "signals" are entrenched enough in our culture that $*SIGNALS would work--except for the other problem I mentioned of need to register for specific signals 19:32
*needing
FROGGS like subscribing to the signals one is interested in? 19:33
use signal <...> # that feels like a workaround
TimToady what you want is a tap on a specific set of signals 19:35
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TimToady you might want a different tap on a different set of signals 19:36
so we need a configurable signal supply
a 'grep' is probably not good enough here
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TimToady not unless the supply can introspect the smartmatch to determine which signals it should sign up for 19:39
but maybe smartmatch is overkill here 19:41
FROGGS what if one would register some sort of callback function: signal-handler( Signal $s where ... } ?
TimToady that's what .tap does
FROGGS ahh, okay
TimToady with supplies it's reactive all the way down 19:42
'reactive' being the fancy term for callbacks these days :)
but in this case, partitioning a subset of the reactions is more like de-combinating than combinating... 19:44
it's just we have a general problem of how do combinators push their optimizations up the supply chain? 19:45
one could view not subscribing to all signals as a kind of optimization in that brainstate
though in this case the semantics of signals change if you even observe them, so it's not just an optimization 19:46
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TimToady in addition to trapping or dying on a signal, presumably we also need a way to register that a signal should be ignored outright 19:48
otoh, one could argue that one thread might choose to ignore a signal, while another might choose to trap it, so in that case you have to trap it and pretend to ignore it in the one thread, I suppose 19:49
setting SIG_IGN then is just an upstream optimization of all taps wanting to ignore the signal, I guess 19:51
TimToady wonders how far we can drive this; we've been relatively successful at distributing other "process" concepts like $*CWD and %*ENV 19:52
FROGGS mhm
TimToady so maybe "temp $*SIGNALS;" lets us have a local signal feed that informs PROCESS::SIGNALS what it should collect all around 19:53
(assumping "temp" clones the supply appropriately, and that we can then tailor it) 19:54
well, maybe we just want "my $*SIGNALS = Signals.new(...)" instead
FROGGS my $*SIGNALS = Signals.new( :subscribe([...]), :filter(...) ) 19:56
TimToady not sure how the local supply would coordinate with its parents, unless it went straight to PROCESS::SIGNALS
FROGGS yeah
TimToady maybe one level is sufficient here
or two, depending on how you count :)
FROGGS *g*
TimToady hmm, but likely a multi-interpreter process will want a GLOBAL level too 19:57
FROGGS what if you could say that you want to inherit the pre-filtered signals from the parent? and the default is not to do so? 19:58
TimToady "yes, you can set a signal handler in your apache interpreter, but the other interpreters won't see it"
19:59 vky left
FROGGS like: my $*SIGNALS = OUTER::Signals.new... 19:59
(sort of)
lizmat so what's wrong with the conceptual simplicity of $*POSIX handling *all* POSIX signals ?
TimToady well, CALLER probley
overhead to set up, distortion of the semantics 20:00
lizmat you want to handle a particular signal, you $*POSIX.tap and ignore all the ones you don't want?
TimToady many signals default to killing your process if you don't handle them; and are difficult to handle correctly when things are breaking badly
lizmat hmmm... worrying about overhead now feels like a premature optimization
TimToady and no way to say you want to ignore a signal 20:01
cxreg do i remember right that moarvm uses libuv?
TimToady it's startup time
lizmat there should always be a POSIX.tap for SIGINT and the like
TimToady likely, but what about SIGFPE
cxreg if so, might be noteworthy that node.js had a usage bug that was causing memory leaks: www.joyent.com/blog/walmart-node-js-memory-leak 20:02
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cxreg the actual diff: github.com/joyent/node/commit/1693...5d636ce693 20:03
lizmat TimToady: maybe some signals aren't meant to be visible at the code level ?
TimToady cxreg: you probably want to point that out on #moarvm
20:03 FROGGS[mobile] left
cxreg thanks just found that channel 20:03
TimToady reads 'man sigaction' and wonders how to shoehorn all that into a supply 20:06
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TimToady is starting to think that each signal gets its own supply, and the system just tracks which signals have been tapped and which haven't 20:10
and if you want to trap a set, you write a combinator
but maybe that's overkill
for sure, any signal that might indicate low memory needs to have at least one event message of the appropriate type pre-allocated 20:12
20:12 rurban1 left
TimToady can we guarantee that a call to a tap routine allocates no memory for a simple supply/tap relationship? 20:12
what the tap does from there is of course its own responsibility... 20:13
signal handling is really, really, really tricky
and oversimplifying usually ends up in greater pain downstream 20:14
japhb just discovered that <Ctrl> is a hotkey for "Look for new lines" in the irclogs, and LOVES THAT.
moritz++
jnthn Moar lazily allocates frames at present so can't promise any invocation won't allocate righ tnow. We could do something about that (keep one in supply)...
preflex jnthn: you have 3 new messages. '/msg preflex messages' to read them.
jnthn ...but harder to make promises on other backends. otoh, their signal support will vary too :) 20:15
TimToady varying from the norm is okay, if we know what the norm should be :)
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lizmat perhaps it should be %*POSIX, a hash of signal taps ? 20:26
20:26 stevan_ left
jnthn I doubt it 20:27
Well, could work I guess...
But feels a little clumsy compared to the methods... 20:28
lizmat possibly even auto-vivifying
thing is, that different systems may have other keys in the %*POSIX hash, no?
jnthn yes, some weird tying stuff is what I'm trying to avoid :P
Auto-viv is a race condition, so mixing it with supplies feels odd ;) 20:29
lizmat ok, I guess that's a premature optimisation thought :-)
japhb Why call something signals related POSIX? That seems like a very broad term for such a specific use case. 20:40
s/use case/domain/ 20:41
jnthn
.oO( POSIGS )
 20:42
lizmat %*SIG then ?
FWIW, I didn't want to combine them with other signally things such as events on Win systems 20:47
to me, the feel like different things, and should be handled differently 20:48
japhb I always liked the $SIG{INT} syntax in Perl 5. %*SIG<INT> works for me.
lizmat if someone wants to merge them into a system-agnostic interface, they can write combinators on the taps :-) 20:49
japhb Yes, well, that would indicate calling the events thing something other than SIG. ;-)
Nodnod
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dalek kudo/moar-support: 2fa3cf8 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/moar/ (2 files):
stub p6routinereturn
 21:09
21:11 rurban1 left 21:17 dayangkun joined 21:18 xenoterracide joined 21:19 btyler joined 21:21 jnap left
colomon is confused by TimToady's latest changes to looping 21:21
lue r: token FOO { \d \d \d }; say "333" ~~ /<FOO>/ 21:25
camelia rakudo-jvm e5fd34: OUTPUT«Useless declaration of a has-scoped method in mainline (did you mean 'my token FOO'?)␤No such method 'FOO' for invocant of type 'Cursor'␤ in method ACCEPTS at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:12325␤ in block at /tmp/fM6IvXbRsg:1␤ in any eval at gen/jvm/stag…»
..rakudo-parrot e5fd34: OUTPUT«Useless declaration of a has-scoped method in mainline (did you mean 'my token FOO'?)␤No such method 'FOO' for invocant of type 'Cursor'␤ in regex at /tmp/aKqP54CUDC:1␤ in method ACCEPTS at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:12355␤ in method ACCEPTS at …»
lue I need slangs, don't I? :(
FROGGS r: regex FOO { \d \d \d }; say "333" ~~ /<FOO>/ 21:26
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34: OUTPUT«Useless declaration of a has-scoped method in mainline (did you mean 'my regex FOO'?)␤No such method 'FOO' for invocant of type 'Cursor'␤ in regex at /tmp/FRToa8Sea8:1␤ in method ACCEPTS at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:12355␤ in method ACCEPTS at …»
..rakudo-jvm e5fd34: OUTPUT«Useless declaration of a has-scoped method in mainline (did you mean 'my regex FOO'?)␤No such method 'FOO' for invocant of type 'Cursor'␤ in method ACCEPTS at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:12325␤ in block at /tmp/mrTtUUqimY:1␤ in any eval at gen/jvm/stag…»
FROGGS r: my regex FOO { \d \d \d }; say "333" ~~ /<FOO>/
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34, rakudo-jvm e5fd34: OUTPUT«｢333｣␤ FOO => ｢333｣␤␤»
lue o... k?
r: my method bar { say "OK" }; say bar 21:27
camelia rakudo-jvm e5fd34: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 0 but expected 1␤ in block at /tmp/japUNgY2RM:1␤ in any eval at gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1086␤ in any evalfiles at gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1292␤ in any command_eval at gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:11…»
..rakudo-parrot e5fd34: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 0 but expected 1␤ in method bar at /tmp/rAu3ag2MQF:1␤ in block at /tmp/rAu3ag2MQF:1␤ in any at /tmp/rAu3ag2MQF:1␤ in any at gen/parrot/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1146␤ in any eval at gen/parrot/stage2…»
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FROGGS lue: a method gets its SELF as the first argument 21:32
r: my method bar { say self }; bar 42
camelia rakudo-parrot e5fd34, rakudo-jvm e5fd34: OUTPUT«42␤»
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dalek kudo/moar-support: a32376d | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/moar/ (2 files):
stub p6recont_ro
 21:37
timotimo hi 21:38
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FROGGS hi 21:39
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lizmat S06:3377 21:41
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S06.html#line_3377
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dalek kudo/moar-support: f38804e | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/moar/Perl6/Ops.nqp:
remove already implemented op p6bindattrinvres
 21:41
timotimo FROGGS: oops, i had already made a commit to map nqp::replace, but i forgot to pullrequest it 21:50
FROGGS timotimo: well, it is just a line :o)
timotimo: we pass the optimizer now btw 21:51
timotimo \o/
but that wasn't replace
can you tell me what did it?
FROGGS replace was one thing I think, the other was the explosion due to atpos_o on a NULL pointer 21:52
timotimo no, replace was first needed after the optimizer because it was the first thing i hit when i ran --optimize=off
FROGGS ahh, but it got us further at least :o) 21:53
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timotimo well, not necessarily "no", but ... you know :) 21:53
jnthn It was just a place that expected null to throw when it current explodes on Moar. 21:54
timotimo ah!
jnthn I tweaked it to check for that and things got better :)
timotimo it's that easy :)
thanks
jnthn Commit is only one of mine today so should be easy to find
dalek kudo/moar-support: 6c8adf4 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/moar/ (2 files):
stub p6finddispatcher
 21:55
21:56 PZt left
timotimo and now we're just doing NYI-throwing ops? 21:56
FROGGS well, I am unable to implement these, so I stub them which helps jnthn++ as he said :o) 21:57
timotimo :D 21:58
sounds good to me
FROGGS if you want you could look into p6routinereturn, it is not too hard I think
timotimo i should get into backlog reading for the evening
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jnthn p6shiftpush should at least be easy enough ;) 21:59
FROGGS will that live in Ops.nqp directly?
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jnthn No, can do it in perl6_ops.c 22:02
It's just quite straightforward to do :)
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dalek kudo/moar-support: ee9a069 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/moar/ (2 files):
stub p6argsfordispatcher
 22:06
kudo/moar-support: bffdc26 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/moar/Perl6/Ops.nqp:
remove already implemented op p6inpre
FROGGS umm, now we're stuck at openpipe 22:07
timotimo ah, not running, but compiling, right?
FROGGS compiling, yes
I'll just comment it out to see what is next 22:08
dunno how much fun it is to implement openpipe O.o
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FROGGS w.r.t. S11: my CompUnitRepo implementation can locate and load modules as specced in S11, and sticks the CompUnitRepos in %*CUSTOM_LIB under their name... e.g. perl/vendor/site/home/usb-stick/... 22:13
lizmat FROGGS++ 22:14
FROGGS so, next is that panda uses such a CUR if the destination path is under a CUR's control
japhb Yes, FROGGS++ 22:15
FROGGS and to handle perl6 -ICompUnitRepo=/path/to/my/usb/stick -e ...
japhb And ++FROGGS for the panda work
FROGGS :o)
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FROGGS yeah, I hope it is not too painful 22:15
timotimo: xor is the next missing op after openpipe 22:16
timotimo is it as easy as i think it is? 22:17
FROGGS dont think so
jnthn xor is a control flow op that needs interesting compilation 22:18
timotimo that means i won't do it :D
jnthn Needs doing it QASTOperationsMAST in the NQP repo
FROGGS hmmm, maybe it is: github.com/perl6/nqp/blob/master/s...s.nqp#L777 22:19
jnthn It shooldn't be ofervder hard to port 22:21
shouldn't, overly
from the Parrot version, that is
dalek p: a67cbd1 | dwarring++ | examples/rubyish/ (6 files):
improved rubyish method and var parsing.
 22:41
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FROGGS I wonder why nobody is working on PHPish :o) 22:52
timotimo hehe :) 22:54
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jnthn I dunno! It's not like there's many built-in functions to do... 22:56
FROGGS the problem might be the implicit parameter mixup 23:02
and the minimum_function_name_length of 47 or so 23:03
jnthn Or everybody is keen to escape parsing the namespace syntax... 23:04
FROGGS we should stop ranting about the successor of Perl :P
jnthn Well...sleep, I guess... 23:06
'night
FROGGS gnight 23:07
timotimo gnite :)
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lue Am I right in thinking that there's no alternative to DateTime.in-timezone() that let's me specify timezone as, say, "+0200" ? 23:30
timotimo The general notation for the [offset] is +hhmm or -hhmm. The time zone of the new object is assumed to be a static offset equal to the [offset]. 23:31
lue timotimo: that refers to ISO 8601 strings though. 23:32
retupmoca lue: github.com/supernovus/perl6-timezone/ has a tz-offset() that claims to parse the "+0200" format 23:34
timotimo ah 23:35
retupmoca I have a fork of that repo where I'm attempting to implement proper timezone support, but it's not really ready for use yet
lue ah. Pulling in a module for one function seems a bit heavy-handed here though.
FROGGS nqp: say(nqp::xor(1, 1)) 23:36
camelia nqp-jvm: OUTPUT«java.lang.NullPointerException␤ in (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPCORE.setting:672)␤ in print (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPCORE.setting:671)␤ in say (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPCORE.setting:678)␤ in (/tmp/4ZrqzlF_FF:1)␤ in (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1100)␤ in eval (gen/jvm/sta…»
..nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«Error while compiling op xor (source text: "nqp::xor(1, 1)"): No registered operation handler for 'xor'␤frame_name_1109␤»
..nqp-parrot: OUTPUT«␤»
FROGGS nqp-m: say(nqp::null) 23:37
camelia nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«␤»
lue r: say DateTime.new("2013-11-23T19:00Z")
camelia rakudo-jvm e5fd34: OUTPUT«Invalid DateTime string '2013-11-23T19:00Z'; use an ISO 8601 timestamp (yyyy-mm-ddThh::mm::ssZ or yyyy-mm-ddThh::mm::ss+0100) instead␤ in method new at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:14391␤ in block at /tmp/tlmM5xAgfL:1␤ in any eval at gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL…»
..rakudo-parrot e5fd34: OUTPUT«Invalid DateTime string '2013-11-23T19:00Z'; use an ISO 8601 timestamp (yyyy-mm-ddThh::mm::ssZ or yyyy-mm-ddThh::mm::ss+0100) instead␤ in method new at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:14654␤ in method new at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:795␤ in block at /tm…»
lue well, that's wrong.
timotimo you need :00 before your Z 23:38
japhb lue: The problem is that with timezones you should generally support either: A) full Olson TZ info, or B) UTC/TAI only. If you support anything in between, you just guarantee a lot of code in the wild that Does It Wrong. It's like partial locale support.
lue timotimo: nope. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601 23:39
retupmoca japhb: I'm (slowly) extending that module to parse the olson tzdata files 23:40
timotimo oh
japhb retupmoca, Good! But I wasn't saying anything negative about the module, just that people plead for "Just give me offset, it's pretty easy and good enough!" And they're usually wrong on both counts. :-( 23:41
retupmoca oh yeah, I agree on that point
japhb Fixed offset notation was, I think, a major mistake of the otherwise decent ISO 8601 idea.
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lue timotimo: S32::Temporal, to be fair, ignores a majority of the ISO 8601 format. (And that's not even looking at the duration or interval notations) 23:42
timotimo mhm :(
if you have the necessary knowledge, why not patch the synopsis? 23:43
FROGGS well, it is easily improvable
japhb Time is one of the Humans Made It Painful portions of CS. And unfortunately, attempts to make it less painful have the opposite effect in the long run.
timotimo :)
lue timotimo: I probably should, although I don't know how much of a ISO 8601 primer that would require. :) 23:44
japhb: in ISO 8601's defense, timezones on a strictly technical basis shouldn't need to know squiggly map lines :) 23:45
japhb "shouldn't" Oh, the pain that word has caused. ;-) 23:46
timotimo :D
lue personally has never really liked the location-based timezone specifiers anyway. Always felt too imprecise and redundant.
I'll refrain from filing an IS0-8601 bug for the time being, seeing as the spec is lacking in the details. 23:49
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lue (anyone else think it's a bad thing that S32::Temporal doesn't mention Duration objects at all?) 23:52
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japhb_ lue: Kinda seems the right place for that, doesn't it? 23:56
lue japhb_: a little bit :)

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