»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 25 June 2013.
raiph goodnight #perl6 00:00
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colomon forth++ 00:02
I don't see how that deserves to be called Forth -- it's basically just a simple RPN calculator with . added to print results 00:05
though compiling to assembly is kind of crazy 00:06
colomon is trying to resist the temptation...
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colomon wonders whether his Forth implementation is relying on undocumented behavior 00:12
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colomon m: say 10 div 4 00:13
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«2␤»
colomon m: say 4 Rdiv 10
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«2␤»
colomon gist.github.com/colomon/2bb128f3b40df3ffaee8 # simple stack intepreter 00:27
colomon tries to resist adding the ability to compile new words to it....
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colomon gist.github.com/colomon/2bb128f3b40df3ffaee8 # now with the ability to add new words, starting to look like a Forth 00:45
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timotimo i must say: not having any practical experience with x86 and x86_64 and "long mode" makes it kinda hard to implement stuff for moarvm's jit ... 02:23
i'm struggling to get dynasm to accept my attempts at implementing brshift_i and blshift_i
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dalek ast: cb97064 | (David Warring [email@hidden.address] | S05-mass/charsets.t:
Revert "refudged parrot blank chars - still failing, e.g.:"

This reverts commit 03f5fc743eb9c3c9bded68241564f851b5587061. Accidently checked in other junk junk along with this refudge,		 04:19
ast: ee9b239 | (David Warring [email@hidden.address] | S (6 files):
Merge branch 'master' of github.com/perl6/roast
ast: 4e0125c | (David Warring [email@hidden.address] | S05-mass/charsets.t:
refudge blank, punct for parrot 6.8.0 / unicode 5.2
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ragz hi 06:55
whoami
who is this
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bonsaikitten what :D 06:56
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lizmat_ good *, #perl6! 07:47
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lizmat commute to T-Dose, day 2 07:51
&
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masak good daylight savings morning, #perl6 07:53
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FROGGS[mobile] morning 07:56
tadzik: are we going to implement the report receiving service in Perl 6? 07:57
tadzik: we probably only need HTTP::UA and DBIish 07:58
tadzik: maybe bailador but then we should patch it to use HTTP::UA 08:00
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rindolf masak: good morning. 08:24
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lizmat greetings from T-Dose, day 2 08:51
FROGGS , tadzik: how would this service compare to CPAN Testers ??
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FROGGS lizmat: it would receive our test results 09:11
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FROGGS lizmat: so it would be kind of identical in the end 09:11
lizmat so what would be against trying to integrate it with CPAN testers > 09:12
?
FROGGS lizmat: were we care about additional info like backends and such
lizmat maybe now is the time to talk to mst about this :-)
FROGGS lizmat: that we would need their help to fiddle with their database, website, stats generating scripts and so on
lizmat well, maybe not the time yet to do that just yet, but at least keep it in mind :-) 09:13
FROGGS lizmat: we would be faster when we do that ourself... it would take O(months) to get that integrated into P5's system that's for sure 09:14
I just know that barbie is quite busy and it is hard to even get tiny patches in
lizmat perhaps something to put on the list of things to do for the next QA hackathon :)
FROGGS I have not a good feeling about getting this into P5's cpantesters at all 09:15
yeah
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lizmat I'm pretty sure we can work the backend thing out with cpan-testers 09:27
although it may be quite some work on their end :-)
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FROGGS I've got a nice bug: 10:12
$ perl6 -e '%*ENV<foo> = 42; run "echo", "1"'
$ perl6 -e 'run "echo", "1"'
1
$ perl6 -e '%*ENV<foo> ~= 42; run "echo", "1"'
1
bartolin $ /perl6-m -e '%*ENV<foo> = 42; say qx[echo 1]' 10:20
This type cannot unbox to a native string in sub QX at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:847 in block <unit> at -e:1
$ perl6-m -e '%*ENV<foo> ~= 42; say qx[echo 1]'
1
FROGGS ahh
bartolin++
now I know how to fix it :o)
bartolin ohh, FROGGS++ 10:21
moritz \o
bartolin looked somehow similiar like RT #120529
synopsebot Link: rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Displa...?id=120529
bartolin (that's why I tried with qx[echo 1])
FROGGS hi moritz 10:22
bartolin: it is not really related to that ticket
bartolin FROGGS: yeah, I thought so as well. I just wanted to try with qx instead of run ... 10:24
and if the result gave you and idea, great!
FROGGS yeah, was helpful anyway :o)
tadzik FROGGS: why do we need UA on the receiving part? 10:28
FROGGS tadzik: I thought that only HTTP::UA implements http properly, but I would be happy to be convinced of the opposite :o) 10:29
tadzik heh, fair point
perhaps parts of its code can be adopted by a proper http server
or one could go so far to write a bridge between P6 and nginx or something 10:30
we're PSGI after all, can't be _that_ hard
FROGGS so yes, Bailador works fine as it is on my box, and we can think about HTTP::UA when we actually know about issues
tadzik if we can find a snappy enough deserialization mechanism
moritz which reminds me that I want to profile from-json again soon :-) 10:34
FROGGS moritz++
lizmat tadzik: it would be nice if we would have a Perl 6 port of Sereal :-)
tadzik lizmat: troo 10:40
lizmat think it would be faster as well :-)
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tadzik seems to be mostly written in C too 10:41
well, XS 10:42
lizmat the Sereal library is pure C, afaik 10:49
the Perl 5 interface is XS indeed
I think it should be possible to use NatveCall for the Sereal interface 10:50
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colomon I can confirm (just checked source) that the Perl 5 version is just a few lines and calls to XS. 11:22
woolfy lizmat is slightly distracted here at T-DOSE; actually somebody came at our booth with a Perl 5 program with a problem, lizmat++ is helping to solve it (me is so proud) 11:24
timotimo colomon: you mean sereal? 11:30
ah, yeah
ought to be simple-ish to port, then :P
colomon timotimo: yes 11:35
I'm confused though, I can't find the actual C source.
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lizmat the announcement: blog.booking.com/sereal-a-binary-da...ormat.html 11:53
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colomon actually, there's badish news on this front. 12:17
It's C, but it's XS C
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timotimo oh? sereal itself is built on top of XS? 12:20
rather than sereal being a C library that's bound with via XS? 12:21
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lizmat huh??? how can it bind to Python then ??? 12:27
that's not how I internalized it
colomon I might be reading stuff wrong here. 12:28
but SV *info, isn't that an XS data structure? 12:29
lizmat yup 12:30
ok, scratch Sereal then
:-(
colomon Python version appears to be incomplete
Java version appears to be a pure Java implementation
lizmat I can't believe they bound it so tightly to Perl 5 internals 12:31
so, forget about it... :-) 12:32
I will
colomon the Python implementation has its own set of C files, which are full of PyObject pointers
lizmat: they wanted something for Perl 5 which was fast. Makes perfect sense.
lizmat yeah, I know... :-) 12:33
lizmat is just disappointed
FROGGS tadzik: I've got now a service running that record the submitted reports :o)
lizmat FROGGS++
FROGGS so, I'll now wire it up to generate the stats page
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lizmat cool! 12:36
dalek kudo/nom: 6ef0c72 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/CompUnitRepo/Locally.pm:
Fix some signatures and simplify methods
 12:47
colomon is fighting off the urge to convert his primitive Forth in p6 script to primitive Factor in p6... 12:49
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dalek nda/reporter: 3f598d3 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (5 files):
submit reports for failure and success

  (to localhost for now)		 12:59
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lizmat Is there a reason why autogenerated accessors are not multi's? 13:03
m: class A {}; say A.WHICH # WHICH comes from Mu:U:
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«A␤»
lizmat m: class A { has $.WHICH }; say A.WHICH # huh? 13:04
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«Cannot look up attributes in a type object␤ in method WHICH at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:3184␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/BA6M8J3n_F:1␤␤»
lizmat why can't that fall back to Mu's WHICH(Mu:U:) as well ? 13:05
FROGGS because WHICH(A:U:) is more specific 13:07
lizmat eh, where did that come from? 13:10
why wouldn't we generate the standard accessor with (?CLASS:D:) ?
FROGGS hmmm, good question 13:11
in Attribute.pm:79 it just calls $package.HOW.add_method($package, $meth_name, $meth); 13:13
masak hello #perl6 from a train! \o/ 13:14
FROGGS so the accessor will probably just look like WHICH(A:)
hi masak!
masak hi!
I'm doing a lot of Perl 6 right now, but not much of it is leaking onto the channel.
except for that named-args vs attributes complaint yesterday :0
:)
lizmat FROGGS: will look at changing that and seeing the fallout for that
FROGGS lizmat: ahh, in line 27 there is method (Mu $self:), and that could be tweaked
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FROGGS also line 39, 48, ... 13:15
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lizmat yup, will start tweaking, thanks for the poinyer 13:15
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masak does anyone else have this? I feel perfectly happy to do `$.method` on things that are only methods, not attributes -- but I'm more likely to do it if it's a method that returns something. 13:30
if it's a method that mainly has a side effect, I'm more likely to do `self.method` 13:31
lizmat fwiw, I'm a little uneasy with using $.method if there is no attribute for it 13:33
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lizmat to the point I would suggest disallowing it 13:34
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masak I'm not just not uneasy about it -- I think it's wonderfully consistent and should be encouraged. 13:34
way I see it, it can only help promote the understanding of the unification between public attributes and methods. 13:35
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masak writes `$.WHAT` for the first time in code 13:35
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masak is surprised when this doesn't work 13:37
m: class A { method foo { say self.WHAT } }; A.new.foo
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«(A)␤»
masak m: class A { method foo { say $.WHAT } }; A.new.foo
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«No such method 'WHAT' for invocant of type 'A'␤ in method foo at /tmp/OI1QEko7Pu:1␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/OI1QEko7Pu:1␤␤»
masak I would vote "bug" on this, except that I can consider leaving room for some compelling counterargument that I haven't thought of. 13:38
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masak m: class A { method foo { say self.^name } }; A.new.foo 13:40
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«A␤»
masak m: class A { method foo { say $.^name } }; A.new.foo
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«Any␤»
masak o.O
ok, that last one I'm not 100% I'd want to work, but...
dalek kudo/nom: d9c80f4 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/CompUnitRepo/Local (3 files):
CURL: Deprecate .path in favour of .IO
masak ...I also don't understand where the Any is coming from.
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masak m: say $.^name 13:45
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«Any␤»
masak ok, ah.
m: say $
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
masak it's probably the new `$` syntax that makes the above valid at all.
well, I could see a world in which `$.^foo` meant `self.^foo`, that's all. I'm not sure it should mean that. 13:46
lizmat m: use strict; say $ 13:49
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
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lizmat
.oO( just checking )
 13:49
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b2gills I think I figured out where and how to fix `enum Phonetic (:Alpha<A>, <Beta Charlie>)` src/Perl6/Actions line 3303 needs to check if it gets `<Beta Charlie>` and do something different. 14:01
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b2gills @values.push($*W.compile_time_evaluate($<term>, $_)); 14:05
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b2gills That lines needs to break apart $<term> or $_ (idk which) and push the "inner" values 14:13
I would fix it if I knew the structure of the variables were, and how to break them apart 14:15
masak is there a recent spec commit for `$` in non-signature use? I can't seem to find it by skimming the spec log. 14:18
FROGGS masak: TimToady committed something about that AFAIK 14:21
masak yeah, still can't find it, neither with --author=TimToady nor --author=Wall 14:24
ISTR it being this year, so I shouldn't even have to look that far back.
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masak ah, found this: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ce...d9d00ba771 14:27
that one only *speculates* that the semantics be `state $`, though.
I haven't found a spec or decision about it.
right now the semantics seems to be `my`...
FROGGS masak: maybe this? github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5f...c88cb45451
vendethiel FROGGS: "spec" :p 14:28
FROGGS vendethiel: what?
masak m: sub foo { ($ = "A")++ }; say foo for ^5
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«A␤A␤A␤A␤A␤»
vendethiel FROGGS: that's not a spec commit
FROGGS ohh
lizmat m: sub a { $++ }; say a; say a # I think that's state by default
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«0␤1␤»
masak waitwait 14:29
lizmat: how is yours qualitatively different from mine?
the only difference I see is the assignment.
lizmat not by much
masak and yet they have different behaviors. o.O
lizmat I'd say, yours is NYI
masak submits rakudobug 14:30
vendethiel masak: it's my $; not state $
masak something is *very* fishy there.
vendethiel (bare $ is, I mean)
lizmat m: sub foo { ($ = 0)++ }; say foo for ^5
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤»
masak vendethiel: what makes you say that?
vendethiel seeing the commit that added it to rakudo :-)
masak vendethiel: see lizmat++'s eval.
vendethiel and telling TimToady: NOT TO MAKE IT STATE :P
masak huh.
why not?
lizmat m: sub a { $++ }; say a for ^5
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«0␤1␤2␤3␤4␤»
masak seems it is in some cases... 14:31
vendethiel masak: ETOOMUCHMAGIC.
ETOOIMPLICIT
lizmat fwiw, I'm fine with state, as my wouldn't make much sense
masak I'm fine with state, too.
I can see where vendethiel is coming from, but I don't mind much. 14:32
vendethiel newcomers will mind...
masak if I can write `$++` instead of `(state $)++` 500 times before I die, that will be worth it :)
vendethiel ++state is cool too :p 14:33
or er, state++
masak m: sub foo { ++$ }; say foo for ^5 14:34
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤»
vendethiel m: sub a { state++ }; say a for ^5
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/7a8JxXYEd3␤Malformed state␤at /tmp/7a8JxXYEd3:1␤------> sub a { state⏏++ }; say a for ^5␤ expecting any of:␤ scoped declarator␤»
vendethiel m: sub a { (state)++ }; say a for ^5
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/8nHJRjW3si␤Malformed state␤at /tmp/8nHJRjW3si:1␤------> sub a { (state⏏)++ }; say a for ^5␤ expecting any of:␤ scoped declarator␤»
vendethiel meh.
masak declarators don't work that way.
they want a declaratee.
vendethiel and when do they want it 14:35
masak vendethiel: I mean, I can't think of a single case where you write a declarator (`my`, `our`, `state`, `has`, etc) and then nothing afterwards. it feels "wrong", parsing-wise. 14:38
vendethiel well, semantics-wise for me
lizmat m: sub a { (state $ = "A")++ }; say a for ^5
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«A␤B␤C␤D␤E␤»
lizmat m: sub a { ($ = "A")++ }; say a for ^5 # should just be the same 14:39
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«A␤A␤A␤A␤A␤»
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masak huh. medical emergency on the train. they're calling out for a doctor or a nurse on the PA system. 14:39
lizmat hopes it's not for masak 14:40
FROGGS: - method (Mu $self:) is rw {
+ multi method (Mu:D $self:) is rw {
does not work :-( 14:41
masak lizmat: it's not for me. it's someone in the next car down.
lizmat FROGGS: Stage parse : Error while constructing error object:Could not locate compile-time value for symbol Anon::Multi
Cannot iterate object with P6str representation
FROGGS lizmat: and? 14:42
does it do what we want?
lizmat m: multi method {} # possibly related
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/BngLNBrgXP␤Cannot put multi on anonymous method␤at /tmp/BngLNBrgXP:1␤------> multi method {} # possibly related⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ statement list␤…»
lizmat FROGGS: it doesn't build that way :-(
FROGGS eww
m: multi anon method {}
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/16k__iOIC5␤Missing block␤at /tmp/16k__iOIC5:1␤------> multi anon ⏏method {}␤ expecting any of:␤ statement list␤ prefix or term␤ prefix or m…»
FROGGS m: multi method :: {} 14:43
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/pvK5JkarHM␤Cannot put multi on anonymous method␤at /tmp/pvK5JkarHM:1␤------> multi method :: {}⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ statement list␤»
lizmat so I'm giving up for now
FROGGS yeah, though I guess we can make anon multis work 14:44
(soonish)
masak anon multis? exciting!
how do I... call those? 14:45
vendethiel don't. they're crippled by the lexpad bug thingie :) 14:46
masak what lexpad bug thingie? 14:48
did I miss something crucial in the backlog?
vendethiel no, I'm just talking about anon multis
masak can you demonstrate the bug somehow?
vendethiel I tried to return a multi from a sub once. that didn't go well!
masak adds it to "anecdotal evidence" 14:49
vendethiel wait, no, it wasn't even related to anon multi. just returning multis 14:50
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masak if you say so. 14:52
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dalek kudo/nom: 5513af3 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/CompUnit.pm:
Fix signatures, simplify some methods
 15:05
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masak m: say (1..10).map({ $_ %% 2 ?? $_ * 10 !! () }).perl 15:14
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«((), 20, (), 40, (), 60, (), 80, (), 100).list␤»
masak m: say (1..10).map({ $_ %% 2 ?? $_ * 10 !! () }).flat.perl
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«(20, 40, 60, 80, 100).list␤»
masak m: say (1..10).map({ $_ %% 2 ?? $_ * 10 !! () }).uniq.perl
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«(20, 40, 60, 80, 100).list␤»
masak ok, goodenuf.
TimToady I'm pretty sure .flat will be more efficient than .uniq 15:17
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lizmat on .uniq 15:19
is there a reason why .squish is like Unix's 'uniq' program, and .uniq is not ? 15:20
TimToady because Unix is wrong?
geekosaur uniq is more like squash consecutive lines, not actually uniquify (unless you sorted first), yeh 15:22
lizmat well, it might give some people coming from Unix, the wrong idea about the functionality of .uniq ?
TimToady so might .grep ;)
lizmat geekosaur: Unix's uniq is like Perl6's squish
geekosaur yes, exactly
that would be why I described Unix uniq's behavior as squashing :p 15:23
lizmat ah, ok :-)
geekosaur (and that does tend to be a Unix newbie trap, which is a pretty good argument that Unix is wrong)
masak TimToady: I was in a situation where I wanted to .uniq anyway. I mainly wanted to make sure .uniq flattened.
lizmat anyway, I was asked this yesterday by a visitor at the booth
masak and yes, I want .uniq, and not .squish in this case.
TimToady we also have prior art for squishing in p5's tr///s 15:24
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lizmat fwiw, I have been caught out by Unix's 'uniq' behaviour, so I can see TimToady's point about Unix being wrong 15:24
TimToady maybe we should rename .uniq to .unique
lizmat and then .squish to .uniq ? 15:25
TimToady nope
lizmat ok, that was a suggestion I got
geekosaur now *that* would be confusing
TimToady no need to propagate the mistakes of other cultures
geekosaur .uniq vs .unique
lizmat but .unique would make it different from .uniq, and thus be a warning flag
I can dig that
and it would allow a clear deprecation path 15:26
TimToady m: say (1..10).map({ $_ %% 2 ?? $_ * 10 !! next }).perl 15:30
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«(20, 40, 60, 80, 100).list␤»
mst ideally, if you call 'uniq' on an unsorted stream, a small gnome exits the back of the computer and hits the developer with a mallet
TimToady there's a cool idiom
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gtodd are type modifiers documented anywhere? as in Str vs. Str:D 15:32
TimToady method uniq (|) { die "Unsupported use of .uniq; in Perl 6, please use .squish, unless you really meant .unique" }
gtodd: S12:1629 15:33
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S12.html#line_1629
lizmat TimToady: first a deprecation cycle, as we probably have code out there depending on uniq
TimToady shore 15:35
as for $ = 'A', currently that's equivalent to (state $) = 'A', since the $ doesn't actually parse as a declarator, but is promoted to a declaration in the actions 15:39
maybe we can fix that somehow
could also argue that it should be restricted to integers 15:40
TimToady loves to argue so much that he often ends up arguing both sides. :) 15:41
TimToady would've made a bad lawyer... :) 15:42
lizmat I agree
I disagree
mst if you get DID, nobody's going to notice ...
dalek ecs: 221ef4b | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S (3 files):
Don't use 'uniq', use 'unique' instead

To prevent confusion by Unix 'uniq' users		 15:43
mst some unix commands have secret long names 15:44
for example
'rm -rf did you really mean to do that?'
but also 'uniq did you really mean sort -u?'
TimToady "Your Honor, in all fairness, I do think the defendent probably did it. But then I also think you're a crooked judge." --Honest Abe. 15:48
Lawyers are taught to never say what they really think. That's why it's such good training for politics. 15:52
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huf so why have there been so few actors in politics? 15:55
geekosaur because the scriptwriters are terrible?
huf :) 15:56
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masak heh. I just wrote `has Int $.attr = Inf` in code; which fails to typecheck in current Rakudo because Inf is still only a Num :) 16:04
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masak fakes it by declaring a constant INF larger than anything else 16:04
TimToady I have not noticed actors refraining from saying what they think when they're off camera; you will note that our last actor-president had some troubles with saying what he thought occasionally.
but he was the teflon president with respect to his own words as well as others'. :) 16:06
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lizmat T-Dose shutting down& 16:13
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gtodd thanks 16:14
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huf TimToady: yeah, would have to be a serious method actor :) 16:16
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dalek ecs: d728b4a | TimToady++ | S12-objects.pod:
Don't assume .WHAT and friends are normal

Some of them may be implemented as normal methods or operators for now, but we still reserve the right to change any of them into magical ponies.		 16:44
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masak :) 16:47
well, I guess that answers that.
TimToady
.oO(a compelling counterargument: "Because I said so!")
masak indeed.
TimToady what I meant by "macro", which usage you'll be pleased that I've excised 16:48
masak was just gonna say.
precision++
I am implicitly in favor of any mention of "macro" or "macro-ish" in the spec that doesn't actually accord with (present or future) macro spec ;) 16:49
TimToady++
TimToady: what do you think of the idea of warning on unknown nameds to .new ? 16:50
TimToady it would be nice to generalize it 16:51
masak how? 16:52
TimToady: also (later), what would you think of merging (the effects of) github.com/masak/data-pretty into spec/Rakudo?
TimToady by actually implementing class closing and finalizing as specced
and maybe with a mechanism for marking which nameds have actually been looked at, for a run-time warning 16:53
masak do you think implementing a stopgap warning would be harmful?
with the "wrong" mechanism
TimToady well, I've proposed a wronger mechanism, just look to see if anyone has defined that method/attribute anywhere in any class, without considering inheritance 16:54
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masak hm, method/attribute. yes, I guess if it's an rw method, things could be set that way too. 16:57
TimToady without having looked at your proposal closely (been sick), my gut feeling is that I'm okay with sub-lists prettifying, but wouldn't want top level lists to behave differently then they do when interpolated in a string or list
*than
masak just to be clear, would you be fine with changing prettifying all those situations, as long as they're consistent? 16:58
probably not, on a second re-read. 16:59
TimToady is still not in a state to make important decisions, really... 17:01
masak okioki
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masak yes, it's because it's a rather broad change that I'd like to get a go-ahead on it. 17:01
mst masak: you might look at MooseX::StrictConstructor 17:03
which some people use
but, in general, I'm not fond of
TimToady would, however, like to avoid the pythonic solution of forcing people to use formatters more often than necessary
mst the key thing being that, yes, catching a typo in named constructor params is nice
TimToady Perl still believes in interpolation, by and large.
mst BUT
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mst being able to pass basically a hash-o-stuff to a constructor and know that it'll use the things it understands and ignore the rest ... is really useful 17:04
masak mst: interesting data point.
mst plus there's assorted cleverness you can do in BUILD with otherwise-unused names
masak even interestinger.
mst: how would you feel about it if (a) it only triggered syntactically, i.e. when you actually used some nameds, not a flattened hash, in the source text 17:05
TimToady sure, but arguably that kind of magic doesn't have to be default
masak and (b) it would turn off itself if you had a sufficiently weird BUILD, or maybe a BUILD at all
? 17:06
TimToady inclines to default to strict, but make it really easy to turn off
a trait, in the absence of other evidence
mst oh, also, StrictConstructor used a neat trick to deal with BUILD
basically, if you handle a key in the args, you delete it from the hashref
and then at the end of BUILDALL, it checks if the only -remaining- keys are ones it knows about 17:07
and if not, then throws an exception
TimToady that disallows passing the same parameter to multiple levels
mst swings, roundabouts, etc.
TimToady so we've leaned away from the deletion approach 17:08
mst I've never seen anybody complain about that
I don't personally like it very much
TimToady and it's kinda heavy
mst but I've not yet seen anybody lose a foot
TimToady
.oO(It has not yet been proven that tobacco causes cancer...) :P
 17:09
mst sure ... you're making all the arguments that I agree with, and I'm steelmanning the opposition :)
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masak fwiw I would be happy enough if this warning happened at compile-time. 17:10
mst also, presumably perl6 knows enough about its constructor signature that you could do something along the lines of Class.new(params_understood_by(Class, %stuff))
which would handle the case I was talking about before
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TimToady see also the ideas at S12:2172 re closing and finalizing classes at LINK time 17:14
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S12.html#line_2172
masak .oO( as opposed to at ZELDA time ) 17:15
TimToady Maybe we need an "app" declaration that says "I am not, nor have I ever been, a module." 17:19
which basically would mean "My CHECK time is everyone's LINK time." 17:22
and you may not compile me as a module
timotimo sounds kinda good to me
TimToady you can run multiple of me in a PROCESS (like in a webserver), but I must have my own GLOBAL 17:23
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masak I'm having mild warning bells go off on that idea. they're softly mumbling "singleton" and "final class". 17:32
vendethiel masak: you need an entry point, though 17:33
masak how would one be able to run multiple apps, if one is not meant to refer to it as a module?
TimToady that would be betweenthe app and the framework in which it is loaded 17:34
see apache
masak .oO( app-ache ) 17:35
masak detrains &
timotimo against that, you can take an appspirin 17:36
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vendethiel
.oO( not sure aspirines can fight trains )
 17:36
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timotimo ooooh interesting 17:44
moarvm's profiler does the profiling *before* END blocks are run! 17:45
lizmat
.oO( isn't YOU_ARE_HERE just the first END block? )
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timotimo heh. 17:50
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dalek kudo/nom: d44f431 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (5 files):
Deprecate .uniq in favor of .unique
 17:52
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lizmat dinner& 17:56
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timotimo what's the most idiomatic way - except for with a slice - to loop over all but the first element in an array? 18:02
m: for "a".."f" { FIRST { next }; .say } 18:03
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«a␤b␤c␤d␤e␤f␤»
timotimo m: for "a".."f" { once { next }; .say }
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«b␤c␤d␤e␤f␤»
timotimo m: for ^2 { for "a".."f" { once { next }; .say } }
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«b␤c␤d␤e␤f␤b␤c␤d␤e␤f␤»
timotimo not bad :)
oh ... damn ... Internal error: zeroed target thread ID in work pass 18:05
too lazy to golf that right now 18:07
gist.github.com/timo/19bca00c702507cabad3
TimToady m: for "a".."f" { once next; .say } 18:12
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«b␤c␤d␤e␤f␤»
TimToady don't need the block
timotimo fair enough :) 18:13
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timotimo well, that change makes it run again 18:19
but it's much, much slower all in all
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FROGGS_ m: my $x; say $x /= 0 # I think this is LTA 18:45
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«No zero-arg meaning for infix:</>␤ in method Numeric at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:13670␤ in sub infix:</> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4485␤ in block at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:18918␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/1O0D4Jzow6:1␤␤»
FROGGS_ std: my $x; say $x /= 0
camelia std 14ad63b: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 139m␤»
timotimo huh, how does that happen? 18:46
FROGGS_ I dunno... the Any in $x triggers it 18:47
TimToady "No identity value to autovivify $x with"
but arguably / could have an identity value of 0 18:48
since it works on the left anyway
but you'd think it should be 1 to go with * 18:50
probably the current setup is most correct, but yeah, the message is LTA 18:51
FROGGS_ yeah
timotimo OK 18:53
raiph TimToady: Are your APW keynote slides available online? At least from the halfway point where you introduced the "belief" photos and began the explicit part of the travel metaphor discussion?
vendethiel
.oO( please only post the power-thingie photos )
timotimo ? 18:54
why only them?
raiph TimToady: Because much of the video from that point on doesn't show your slides.
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lizmat takes an early night 18:58
raiph TimToady: I'd be happy to type up my guess of the topics, but lazy sounds better in this instance... 18:59
timotimo fwiw, the excel formula benchmark thingie allocates 12100000 scalar containers from at_pos (after i changed all the @ast[$i] to @ast.at_pos($i) - no clue how many it was before
which is a whole lot more than the second place which is 3600248 from gimme and 3600000 from push 19:00
and then 601018 in reify, which is almost nothing in comparison
scalars make up 21803529 allocations, which is unsurprisingly much more than int, parcel, num and str 19:02
m: say 21803529 - 8303365 - 4101028 - 3500398 - 1700012 19:03
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«4198726␤»
FROGGS_ gnight lizmat
timotimo 600104 ← this is how many BOOTCode objects we build, weird.
all in src/gen/m-BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1488
ah, that's the clone method of Block.HOW 19:04
FROGGS_ \o/ cpandatesters now also generated the os/compiler/backend matrix properly! 19:06
(besides listing the reports)
now I need to display the report details 19:07
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Woodi hallo #perl6 19:20
m: grammar H { rule TOP { 'class Abc {' <body> '};' }; rule body { <words>+ % \s+ }; rule words { \S+ }; }; say H.parse( 'class Abc { a };' );
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«｢class Abc { a };｣␤ body => ｢a ｣␤ words => ｢a ｣␤␤»
Woodi I'm pretty sure words was defined as *\S* .. 19:21
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bartolin are there plans to switch to parrot 6.9.0? 19:23
the other day (shortly before this month's release of Rakudo) lizmat++ got a
lot of spectest failures after trying to bump PARROT_REVISION (also a few
changes in Rakudo where needed, see branch parrot-690)
lizmat's spectest failures: gist.github.com/lizmat/05a8462ffe4d6b0a8e52
I also tried to use parrot 6.9.0 and it looks as if most of the spectest
failures are caused by segfaults (maybe related to GC). Here is one example:
$ perl6-p -e 'for 1 .. 50 { print "$_ "; EVAL q[ "abc" ~~ m/ \d / ]; }'
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Segmentation fault
TimToady Woodi: don't use 'rule' when you want 'token' 19:24
Woodi oki, I will check tokens 19:26
FROGGS_ bartolin: yes, I'd like to switch to a properly working new parrot revision :o) 19:29
bartolin: which also means that I'll try parrot soonish to support rurban hunting down any issues 19:30
TimToady maybe we should warn on use of \s within a rule
FROGGS_ TimToady: at least when it is surrounded by space, aye? 19:31
bartolin FROGGS_: I'd like to help with that, but have no idea how. would it be useful to get more examples like the above?
FROGGS_ bartolin: a gdb backtrace would be helpful 19:32
bartolin FROGGS_: okay, I'll take a look 19:33
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dalek kudo/nom: a07bdab | moritz++ | docs/ChangeLog:
[docs] update ChangeLog
 19:38
vendethiel "Vendethiel (aka Ven aka nami doc)" 19:39
I'm sorry, raiph :P
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bartolin FROGGS_: here is a gdb backtrace: gist.github.com/usev6/6e57582839549b6d7698 19:53
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bartolin FROGGS_: I'm not familiar with gdb, so I hope that's the right information 19:53
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bartolin FROGGS_: and here is a second gdb backtrace: gist.github.com/usev6/1ba6157dae245b239260 19:58
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FROGGS_ bartolin: yes, that's perfect 20:01
rurban: do you know about that regression? 20:02
rurban: at least this looks like parrot is to blame: gist.github.com/usev6/6e57582839549b6d7698 20:03
bartolin is reading a gdb tutorial now ;-) 20:05
vendethiel m: 3.<+>(5) 20:13
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«postcircumfix:<{ }> not defined for type Int␤ in method <anon> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:13676␤ in any find_method_fallback at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:2725␤ in any find_method at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:988␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/7VmewNMIas:1…»
vendethiel m: 3.:<+>(5) #that's prefix? 20:14
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«Cannot find method 'postcircumfix:<( )>'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/5JiJH64ogZ:1␤␤»
20:16 xfix is now known as notfix
vendethiel mmh, S06, help me.. 20:18
not S06 then. Well alright 20:19
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vendethiel Didn't we have a math-parser-thingie on rosettacode? can't remember the name, and searching "math" doesn't bring anything 20:22
(very simple parsing algorithm, like 3+2*5) 20:24
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Ven m: say infix:{"+"}(1, 2) 20:26
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot find method 'has_compile_time_value'␤»
Ven m: say infix:["+"](1, 2)
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/JC4eD2yyjh␤Undeclared routine:␤ infix:["+"] used at line 1. Did you mean 'infix:<+>', 'infix:<+&>', 'infix:<+|>', 'infix:<+^>', 'infix:<+<>'?␤␤»
20:27 Ven left
vendethiel m: say infix:<+<>(1) 20:27
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/JHfySKmcBL␤Unable to parse expression in quote words; couldn't find final '>'␤ ␤at /tmp/JHfySKmcBL:1␤------> say infix:<+<>(1)⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ …»
vendethiel camelia's escaping is :P
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moritz camelia only escapes newlines and zero bytes, iirc 20:40
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vendethiel err, rakudo* 20:50
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masak I'm currently doing long-running analyses of some data I've collected. it's all in Perl 6. I didn't think the task would end up being CPU-bound, but it did. 20:56
still, this is *much* more feasible than only a year ago. 20:57
dylanwh FROGGS_: sorry, i didn't get to looking at anything this weekend, at least not yet. It's not over yet. :)
FROGGS_ dylanwh: well, I already got something working on my box, and I'll show it tomorrow or on tuesday... then I'll accept pull requests :o) 20:58
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dylanwh :-D 21:00
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dalek ast: 27a7e32 | usev6++ | S04-exceptions/control_across_runloop.t:
Unfudge now passing test for rakudo.parrot; RT #122325
 21:02
synopsebot Link: rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Displa...?id=122325
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timotimo i'm getting pretty annoyed by our lack of awesome natives :P 21:08
having to turn $foo++ into $foo = $foo + 1 and such ...
(i'm still fiddling around with that benchmark i stumbled upon on twitter recently) 21:09
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timotimo gist.github.com/timo/2d2cc1260428e5758086 21:21
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masak sounds like an excellent reason to improve our natives ;) 21:39
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jepeway how do, p6peeps? 21:41
FROGGS_ very good 21:42
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jepeway marvy, marvy. 21:44
FROGGS_ gnight #perl6 21:45
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jepeway ah, well, ciao, FROGGS_. 21:45
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jepeway so, i've been playing with time zones a bit, hooking into the Olson DB via NativeCall. 21:47
Code's at fatal: No configured push destination.
urk, no, that's not where the code is :)
it's at github.com/cjepeway/p6-tz
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jepeway i have questions re: how one applies timezone rules to a DateTime to determine an offset from UTC. 21:49
well, less questions, and more just puzzlement, i s'pose.
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jepeway anybody 'round to be puzzled at? 21:51
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masak is around, kinda 21:57
jepeway: could you phrase your puzzlement in terms of code, preferably just one line, preferably using camelia? 21:58
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jepeway masak: I'll give it a go. 21:59
(did this one a few weeks back, hope it's illustrative) 22:00
m: (DateTime.new(now + $_ * 60 * 60 * 24).in-timezone(-60*60*4).Str.substr(*-5) for ^365).Set.say # might like this to be 2 elts (-0400 & -0500) in US/Eastern timezone 22:01
camelia rakudo-moar 315ec6: OUTPUT«set(-0400)␤»
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jepeway obviously, the in-timezone method that takes an int won't ever show anything other than '-0400' 22:02
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masak obviously. 22:02
jepeway but you'd like some kinda object to hold rules so that something like "iterate over all days of a year and get >1 offset" works.
masak yes, I see what you're saying. 22:03
jepeway well, that's what I'm puzzling: would you like that behavior?
ah, cool.
masak it's almost like we have two kinds of things here that we call "timezone":
(a) the thing with a certain offset from UTC.
22:04 mauke left
masak (b) the way time is kept in a given roughly longitudinal stripe on the surface of the Earth, including daylight savings shenanigans. 22:04
we also note that the (b) notion "controls" the (a) notion. 22:05
jepeway yup, yup, yup. 2 things: offset & rule(s) to calculate offset.
masak and that the Temporal spec as it stands today only ever cares about the (a) notion.
jepeway indeed so.
masak well, so much for the easy observations :) 22:06
jepeway heh. 22:07
masak I think it would be easier to talk about, at least for now, if we had two words.
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masak something like "timezone" (established in S32/Temporal already) and "time rules". 22:07
doesn't have to be perfect terms. just enough to distinguish for now.
jepeway sure. 22:08
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masak I think the question we should try to answer is this: what can we do, *outside* of Temporal.pm, to make a set of objects that work like DateTime objects, except that they also know how to play by the time rules? 22:08
jepeway i see some mention of "wallclock time" when discussing this, so, perhaps "offset" and "wallclock rules?" 22:09
jepeway promises to bikeshed no further
masak like a Temporal.pm, but implemented externally to Rakudo.
I can live with "wallclock rules", if you prefer that.
jepeway understood.
masak one of the difficulties you'll be running into is this: last night, in fact, in Europe, we had a DST hour added. 22:10
jepeway (understood re: new DateTime-like objects).
masak so for me, this day contains 25 hours.
which in turn means, for example, that there are *two* TAI moments today that go by the wallclock time 02:34:56. 22:11
jepeway yes, know that problem. (uh, do you mean subtracted?)
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masak well, an extra hour was shoved into the day. 22:11
jepeway (ah, yes. still thinking offsets). 22:12
masak correspondingly, at the other end of the year, there will be DateTime objects that refer to no valid TAI moment. like a "hole" in the wallclock timeline.
jepeway so, the only way i see to distinguish those two 2:34:56 wall clock times is with a TZ abbreviation...which you might not know.
yup: that day has 23 hours, and there's not 1:10AM, eg. 22:13
masak right.
these problems are not insurmountable. but they need to be tackled, and kind of "all at once", with a strategy.
jepeway it's...icky, for the hours where the warps occur.
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masak when I see a mature enough solution to that -- and feel free to be inspired by CPAN's DateTime, fwiw -- we might talk about merging stuff into Rakudo and/or the spec. 22:14
massive bonus points for passing tests :)
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masak at this point, most of the Temporal spec has been written by other people. but I take pride in having a role in putting it on a sane path at some point, around 2010 or so. 22:15
I remember deliberately leaving wallclock rules out of it, because it felt like that part was as big as all the rest of it. 22:16
jepeway i mean, what does my DateTime $t .= new (year => 2014, month => 10, day => 26, hour => 1, minute => 2, timezone => TZ.new('Austria/Vienna')) mean?
masak right. that's a legitimate question.
jepeway yes, it took me a bit to see what was left out and what included as v. wise, in S32/Temporal
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masak there's even some wording about it in the beginning. (that I wrote) 22:18
jepeway i've been wondering whether such "bogus" expressions of wall clock time should be Failures.
masak "...this module doesn't handle all the world's time zones, locales, date formatters or calendars..."
jepeway: I'm fine with them dying outright.
jepeway yes, read that too, and was quite inspired, honestly.
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jepeway in the "hey, that's a pretty well thought call on separation of concerns," i mean 22:20
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jepeway any thoughts on dragging olson db into rakudo (if it comes to that?) or should a pp impl be the eventual target? 22:21
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jepeway (though I'm going to keep working with Olson via NativeCall for now) 22:30
jepeway saw that retupmoca (I think?) wrote a grammar for the plain-text Olson files 22:31
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masak I have no current opinion on the coreness of Olson. 22:32
nor do I see a need to have one until a proposed concrete improvement is at hand ;) 22:33
jepeway hokay.
might you cast your august eyes on some unworthy code @ github.com/cjepeway/p6-tz/blob/mas...imeZone.pm ? 22:35
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jepeway presently, I'm thinking most of what an augmented DateTime needs is an in-timezone multi that delegates to its TimeZone object. 22:37
and some serious trickery in the TZ objects to handle ambiguous and "can't exist" wallclock times 22:38
(oh, in-timezone multi: one takes an Instant, another takes a DateTime) 22:40
but, if this discussion is really in the realm of "hey, you figure this stoof out and get back to us/me with more than you've already got," well, I can dig it :) 22:41
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jepeway s/than/ than what/ 22:42
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masak :) 22:49
it's getting late here, so I'd better save casting eyes, august or not, on code until tomorrow. 22:50
but I can surely look at it then.
thanks for thinking about this.
jepeway coolio.
masak jepeway++
'night, #perl6
jepeway hey, it's fun. thanks for yer time, masak++. g'nite, rest well. 22:51
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