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Set by moritz on 22 December 2015.
timotimo well, you can ask for .keys, sort them, put the resulting list into %foo{@keys} and presto 00:01
seatek yeah i'd have to put it in as an option to the thing generating the strings to do sorting first when generating the strings. 00:02
or i could just let my unit tests fail if the key sorting stuff used internally in perl6 ever changes... ;) 00:03
i'm more inlined to do that
because... well, apple pie ;) 00:04
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seatek i could just regex my tests i suppose :) who cares about performance there 00:05
GRAMMAR my tests!
i need a kitty to stroke 00:06
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seatek so $!attrib variables are lexically scoped to the file, not to class inheritance, yes? 00:11
or is everything beginning to blur together? 00:12
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timotimo twitter.com/loltimo - seatek i posted a few cat pictures on the internets today 00:22
seatek timotimo: hehe. perfect :) 00:24
Xliff Hiyo.
How can I get warn to return only the string parameter without the extra backtrace?
Or better yet, output directly to STDERR 00:25
timotimo use "note"
Xliff Thankee!
seatek ok so it's not that $!attr are lexically scoped to files -- they're scoped to the class they are defined in, and they do not get inherited. so you have to use accessors for those, yeah?
cuz their accessors seem to get inherited 00:26
timotimo yup 00:28
timotimo decommutes 00:29
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ifim o/ 01:15
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ifim Hey guys, what's Perl 6 equivalent of __DATA__ blocks? 01:17
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MasterDuke ifim: good question, i'm not exactly sure 01:22
geekosaur design.perl6.org/S26.html#Data_blocks 01:23
(note, the official docs point here for POD)
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raiph ifim: stackoverflow.com/questions/4269140...d-sections 02:30
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Xliff raiph: Nice job, but you forgot to illustrate how to retrieve the =qux block. 05:34
Since you pointed it out, it might be nice to illustrate it. 05:35
Although I have to admit, that access method is rather clumsy. I thought there was a better method. 05:37
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seatek Honestly, I don't need to be told this all the time. I know! "Use of Nil in string context" I just don't want to have to check every object for defined-ness before coercing it into a string. 06:44
geekosaur $foo // '' 06:45
seatek can that work in the middle of hash assignments?
Xliff "In the middle of" ?? 06:50
seatek like { subject => $thing // '', text => $another // '' } 06:51
it doesn't error but it keeps it at Nil
like { subject => $thing.Str // '', text => $another.Str // '' } 06:52
that' sactually what it is
and $thing and $another are objects 06:53
so i'm sure it's the coersion that' scomplaining
well, guessing sure ;)
geekosaur at a guess, you need parens 06:55
m: dd Nil.Str
camelia rakudo-moar fc6d4f: OUTPUT«Use of Nil in string context␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤""␤»
geekosaur so it's the .Str doing it
seatek yeah 06:56
geekosaur ($thing // '').Str but yuck
seatek interesting
oh that works perfectly - thanks geekosaur++ ! yeah pretty yuck but less yuk that incessant obvious complaining! 06:59
pretty soon this is going to be down from 200 transactions/sec to 10
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Xliff <geekosaur> ($thing // '').Str but yuck 08:21
Yeees. I've been forced to adopt this idiom, myself.
Match objects are particularly.... interesting.
So... $/[0] must become ($/[0] // '').Str 08:22
seatek it's like a disgusting fly that lands in the middle of a beautiful, delicious cheesecake 08:27
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TimToady m: dd Empty.Str 08:39
camelia rakudo-moar fc6d4f: OUTPUT«""␤»
TimToady possibly we could return Empty instead of Nil, but we'd have to think about it 08:40
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TimToady or we could give Match a .Str that doesn't complain, but we'd have to think about that too 08:40
or we could have some universal postfix operator that means // ''
seatek i'd be happy either way :) not that i'm miserable now. entierely
i can't remember any more of those 08:41
TimToady well, // has always been at an uncomfortable precedence level, either too tight or too loose
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seatek but a cheatsheet is always nice 08:41
ah ok
TimToady I suppose any other language would just .default('') or some such, but that's too long :) 08:42
another option, give regex an option to set an "is default" on match objects 08:43
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TimToady there are usually lots of ways to solve anything, and the first one you think of isn't necessarily the best one 08:44
seatek And there will never be a way to solve all the problems.. like wanting an Int... which can't be Nil... and 0 is different too 08:45
That's why I'm thinking turning off the warnings might be good... I'm not sure what good they do anyway in this case. 08:46
TimToady the problem with returning Empty is that nqp doesn't know about it, and regex is actually implemented at a very low level
m: dd Empty.Int
camelia rakudo-moar fc6d4f: OUTPUT«0␤»
seatek Oh weird
ok
That's a real can of worms... I've been trying to get into habits of dealing with the empties and 0's and Nils for Ints 08:47
TimToady yeah, we don't want to let people get too sloppy there, or the opposite problem starts to crop up, where people get '' or 0 and think it's valid data 08:48
it's all tradeoffs...
but I've not been entirely happy with // for years now 08:49
seatek yeah. my last one was in a grammar... where an int wasn't always going to be there... but the make action which coerced it into Int insisted on having something... so i'm making it a string until it comes out of the grammar
it is handy!!
TimToady m: sub _ ($x) { $x // Empty }; say +_ Nil; say ~_ Nil 08:52
camelia rakudo-moar fc6d4f: OUTPUT«0␤␤»
seatek yeah i dont' want the 0 lie if there was just nothing there ;) 08:54
i'm kinda finding that i'm having less trouble not defining types at all until i need to use them for something 08:55
TimToady so that makes the Empty approach not so good, if you want to differentiate
seatek yes, all the variations of nothing confuse me 08:56
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seatek but if i keep the int a string, it's happy being empty 08:56
and then i know it's not a 0 ;) 08:57
but it makes me feel a little... shady
so Ints can be Nil.... 08:59
TimToady no, but Int is undefined 09:00
seatek m: my Int $i = Nil;
camelia ( no output )
TimToady Nil is treated specially there 09:01
seatek I like it :)
TimToady that just says "set $i to default"
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seatek ah 09:01
TimToady but $i doesn't actually ever contain Nil
m: my Int $i is default(42) = Nil; say $i 09:02
camelia rakudo-moar fc6d4f: OUTPUT«42␤»
TimToady m: my Int $i is default(42); $i = Nil; say $i
camelia rakudo-moar fc6d4f: OUTPUT«42␤»
TimToady m: my Int $i is default(42); $i = 41; $i = Nil; say $i
camelia rakudo-moar fc6d4f: OUTPUT«42␤»
seatek m: my Int $x = Nil ; my $y = Nil; my $x = $y ; say $x;
camelia rakudo-moar fc6d4f: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Redeclaration of symbol '$x'␤ at <tmp>:1␤ ------> 3my Int $x = Nil ; my $y = Nil; my $x7⏏5 = $y ; say $x;␤(Any)␤»
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seatek m: my Int $x = Nil ; my $y = Nil; $x = $y ; say $x; 09:03
camelia rakudo-moar fc6d4f: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to $x; expected Int but got Any (Any)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
TimToady = Nil on the declaration is really a no-op
seatek gotcha
TimToady m: my Int $x; my $y; $x = $y ; say $x; 09:04
camelia rakudo-moar fc6d4f: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to $x; expected Int but got Any (Any)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
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TimToady is required to go sightseeing 09:06
literally, in this case, since I'm the only driver on the rental car :) 09:07
seatek you you must be very elsewhere!
TimToady we're very .pt at the moment
seatek well, i'll just go back to struggling with my nothings some more 09:08
TimToady Lisbon, in fact, but we're heading to Sintra and such
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seatek What would be nice is if someone could make it so that Ints on the left would remain happily empty of value if what's on the right is also empty of value 09:09
TimToady we don't often end up with this problem in real life because we do alternations with protos, which means each alternative gets its own action method that triggers only when that rule matches 09:10
seatek actually that's what i was thinking about doing but it's more work that one big hash!
TimToady afk really & 09:12
seatek hehe :) have fun! :)
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toolforger Anybody got an idea why NQP is being built the way it is? 09:17
I was surprised that NQP is being used to build the next NQP generation 09:18
it's a cute trick but can cause various issues
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psch toolforger: afaik we mostly do that because we need Perl 6 to be bootstrapped as well 09:34
toolforger Issue is that you cannot be sure what exactly is in the code: Parts of the semantics might be implicit in whatever NQP does
psch ...is this about trusting trust 09:35
toolforger Ken Thompson, exactly
seatek dont' look at me.. i'm still confused about the variations of nothing
toolforger "Reflections on Trusting Trust" 09:36
psch right, i think there was a discussion on github about that recently
either the rakudo or the nqp repo
toolforger In the days of secret services trying to subvert encryption standards, that's pretty scary
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toolforger Somebody would have to hand-translate everything and see whether it matches what NQP does 09:37
psch github.com/perl6/doc/issues/599 is the discussion i was thinking of 09:38
toolforger i.e. whether it matches the output of compiling NQP with NQP
psch and no, you don't have to manually compile everything, you just have to write a second compiler according to David Wheeler in that discussion 09:39
or david-a-wheeler, as per the actual nick
FSDO "just" :)
toolforger I see it 09:40
and yes he's right
However, if you have a second compiler that does not use the existing NQP blob, you can use that second compiler and do not need that self-compiling NQP anymore
psch until that second compiler gets subverted 09:41
toolforger he mentions that
Personally, I think that can be worked around by making that second compiler so simple that an undergraduate can check it
psch he mentions that it's unlike to be subverted *in the same way*
toolforger it need not be fast, just have the same semantics as the official one
psch but nqp needs to be fast, so we do need the bootstrapping compiler 09:42
toolforger Unfortunately, Patrick's idea that NQP qualifies as a second compiler is not useful as an independent check because it is self-compiling
psch that is not what pmichaud said
toolforger I see 09:43
psch i mean, don't get me wrong, not being able to trust trust is a valid concern
toolforger NP, see your point that Patrick wasn't actually advertising NQP as a trustful agent 09:44
psch and having someone pour time into writing a minimal NQP compiler that can be easily verified and have its results compared to what nqp-{m,j,js} do is a great idea
toolforger though he is a bit unclear about what exactly NQP does for the situation
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psch but if anything you can only compare semantics, or you're white-room reversing each of nqp-{m,j,js} 09:45
because you cannot compare binaries without compiling to the same vm, which means you need to support that same vm
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toolforger You can compiler compiler outputs 09:46
let each compiler compile a compiler, then see whether the resulting compilers produce identical results
psch what are those results that you're comparing?
toolforger "you can compiler" -> "you can compare"
E.g. let Rakudo compile NQP, see whether the resulting compiler produces bit-identical outputs to what original NQP produces 09:47
Of course one can still subvert the compilers, but now the agency needs to subvert two of them, and they need to keep that up as the compilers evolve to avoid getting caught 09:48
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toolforger And the more compilers, the merrier 09:49
psch rakudo cannot compile nqp
nqp compiles rakudo
and "bit-identical output" means you're reimplementing MoarVM *and* the JVM
because you cannot trust either of those either
toolforger No, just compare the binaries that the compilers produce, not the runtimes
psch the compilers produce bytecode specific to a given VM 09:50
toolforger and every new platform involved is one platform that needs to be subverted, i.e. more teams to be influenced
psch which means you need to write a backend for that VM
toolforger there's only so much an attacker can do
psch which means you need to reimplement the VM to trust it
toolforger Use a Chinese, a Russian, and a US JVM :-D
But... still, NQP compiling itself makes several of this kind of tests easier to subvert 09:51
psch i'm not disputing that, i'm just trying to tell you what needs to be done to fix it :) 09:52
or rather, verify it despite that shortcoming
toolforger David Wheeler's idea isn't really to reimplement everything from scratch, it is about producing independent implementations and observe them for differences 09:53
psch yes, i understand that
stmuk_ I think it might be possible to reproduce the binary blobs with libfaketime and using the same path structure and OS
or the windows version of libfaketime 09:54
toolforger Yeah, you'd need a fully deterministic compiler
stmuk_ both debian and FreeBSD have done work on reproducable builds 09:55
toolforger I'd actually recommend not putting in date/time or path info into the compiler; this kind of stuff can go into an accompagnying text file, with a hash code to make its contents verifiable against the compiler that it is supposed to go with 09:56
erm
not "into the compiler" but "into the compilation results", sorry
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stmuk_ increased use of relative paths seems to help but its a hard problem I think 10:03
reproducible-builds.org/
"A typical example is creating an archive from the content of a directory. Most filesystems do not guarantee that listing files in a directory will always result in the same order. 10:09
toolforger Sort files then 10:15
I.e. not really hard, but you need to spot differences, find their causes, and do something to eliminate the difference from the input 10:16
essentially just debugging
we know how to do that :-)
stmuk_ its a huge amount of work
toolforger It's easier for compilers than for interactive software
None of the bullet points seem really hard or a huge amount of work to me 10:18
The hardest part seems to be the ability to control the C compiler
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toolforger new compiler version -> different optimizations -> different output 10:19
DrForr Then dig in and get 'em out of the way so we don't have to worry about it :)
stmuk_ well I look foward to trying to reproduce your reproducable build!
toolforger Heh. That's a good one.
Cannot do that, too little, too many things to do 10:20
*too little time 10:21
How much C is in a Perl compiler, anyway?
psch i think Perl 5 is completely in C, and in Perl 6 i think it's only the backends 10:22
toolforger so we have a bytecode that isn't necessarily optimized - that's a good representation for estabilishing reproducibility 10:23
we cannot do reproducibility all the way down anyway, that stops at the CPU level
and you can have malware in the CPU - most modern CPUs can have their microcode upgraded 10:24
stmuk_ and even have a secret JVM inside
toolforger I do not think that microcode can to a JVM, or that it would be useful to an attacker 10:25
*can do
stmuk_ ? 10:26
toolforger But you can do stuff like "see bit pattern 0xdeadbeefdeadbeefdeadbeefdeadbeef on the data bus -> change a CPU instruction to not do some of the usual protected-mode tests"
(I do not think that microcode can do a JVM)
psch what does "do a JVM" mean?
timotimo it's like "do the mario" 10:27
"swing your arms from side to side, come on it's time to go! do the mario!"
stmuk_ there is a processor inside the usual processor - the Intel ME - that has the JVM 10:32
toolforger it cannot *implement* a JVM
oh right, I forgot about SME
or SMM or whatever the abbreviation of the day is
That's not microcode though
stmuk_ noone said it did
toolforger microcode is more like "if you see THIS bitpattern in the instruction stream, activate THESE processing units and THOSE connections between them"
timotimo nqp is small enough that you can go through the moarvm bytecode it's written in and verify it's okay
if you're really worried about this, go ahead
you can probably write a good tool that makes moarvm bytecode files less noisy when it comes to changes, so you can better diff stage0 updates
really, moarvm bytecode is so sufficiently high level that it's much easier to spot malicious patterns than it would be in x86 assembly for example
stmuk_ diffoscope looked interesting 10:33
toolforger Anything should be easier than x86 assembly :-) 10:34
still, it's quite a lot of bytecode 10:35
442.5k serialized form in nqp.jar
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timotimo well, that's jvm bytecode 10:36
toolforger no, the nqp.serialized resource
not the .class inside the jar
timotimo well, the serialized blob isn't as interesting as the bytecode itself
toolforger Isn't the serialized blob the bytecode? 10:37
timotimo no
toolforger What is it, then?
timotimo objects
we don't yet have a tool to conveniently dump it. i've written something cute in the past, but it's extremely limited
but since you can't jump to an unconstrained point in bytecode from mvm, you can't do something nasty like ROP with existing code 10:38
psch oh that reminds me
toolforger well ok - nqp.class is 984 k, that's a whole mouthful even if it is a multiple of the original bytecodes
timotimo you can only jump into the beginning of a frame and it'll pretty much always do argument verification such that you can't call every target from every call
psch .tell pmurias "nqp bytecode" meant JAST here irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2016-10-25#i_13463907 which was just a case of me not picking the right words, as an AST clearly isn't bytecode... 10:40
yoleaux psch: I'll pass your message to pmurias.
timotimo toolforger: hae you tried moar --dump nqp.moarvm > hugefile?
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timotimo it's got only 103k lines on my end 10:40
... *cough*
toolforger @timotimo The attack vector is not that somebody does remote code execution, it is that one of the Perl developers is secretly paid by the NSA and commits a stage0 blob that contains malicious or merely dubious (and later-found-to-be-exploitable) implementation
stmuk_ yes we know 10:41
timotimo of course
i'm just saying the analysis needs to be a lot less wary of nasty tricks
toolforger then why think about ROP techniques? That's not what happens in this scenario
I'm pretty sure people will think of other nasty tricks 10:42
timotimo ROP would be a way to make malicious code much harder to find
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toolforger not necessary 10:42
One of the OpenSSL compromises was "just sloppy code" 10:43
timotimo it could make malicious code easier to find, i guess?
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toolforger we don't even know if it was paid sloppiness or just what happens if you do not pay attention to every single detail 10:43
timotimo OK
so how about going through history and using the latest version of nqp at that time to try to re-build the stage0 files and seeing what the differences are? 10:44
toolforger that didn't help OpenSSL... and that particular sloppiness I read about was there for years
timotimo that was more about an earlier thing you wrote
but anyway
yeah, you may not want to trust any compiled language, or any program written by anybody else 10:45
stmuk_ js doesn't have a stage0 .. how does it bootstrap?
timotimo probably from nqp-moar
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timotimo what are we going for with this discussion anyway? i missed the beginning 10:48
toolforger I was a bit concerned about NQP reproducing its stage0 directory from stage0 10:49
stmuk_ HLL::Backend::JavaScriptAndMoar
timotimo well, nqp reproduces its stage0 through stage2
toolforger which in turn depends on stage0
timotimo right 10:50
toolforger such dependency cycles make it impossible to "just read the source to infer the semantics"
timotimo right. hence, i was telling you about the bytecode stuff
toolforger is there a way to dump the bytecode to human-readable form? 10:51
timotimo yes, i told you :)
moar --dump. you'll need to pipe it to a file because it doesn't bother making stdout blocking before writing
so if you don't output directly to a file, you'll lose everything after the first mouthful 10:52
toolforger no problem with that
stmuk_ reproducing stage0 needs paths like c:\consulting\ :)
toolforger lol
runs counter to /usr/bin/independent/verification though
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toolforger or at least makes it harder, and less likely to actually happen 10:53
anyway, I'm not so much after fixing the situation, more after understanding it
Is there a complete description & semantics of the AST somewhere? that would be helpful, too 10:55
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toolforger oh. high-priority RL interrupt. Will be back in a few hours. 10:56
timotimo check nqp/docs/ 10:57
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seatek wow I went away to do some yoga and everyone goes all X-files here! 11:32
timotimo a friend points out that in order to counter the problem of untrusted stage0 we'd have to have a different nqp compiler that can create the stage0 blob from the original nqp code 11:33
seatek or we could just figure out who the government mole is here 11:35
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psch i'm fairly sure it's not me, fwiw 11:36
timotimo i'd love to be funded by NSA money. i'm so barely productive as it is, and nothing gets past jnthn and jimmyz
seatek i bet it's viki
timotimo i'd basically suck the NSA dry with no benefit to them, no danger to any users
psch i'd need to see metrics to support that 11:37
like, commit frequency or something
seatek who's this toolfoger? i bet it's him. he'll show up with some binary to "help" in the next few days 11:38
RabidGravy I have to say my Perl 6 productivity has hit the skids since I got a "proper job"
timotimo :)
poor skids
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psch hah, yeah, the "proper job" 11:39
i got one too
it's horrible
stmuk_ www.staustellbrewery.co.uk/proper-job 11:40
timotimo so god went ahead and tested Proper Job ...
pmurias being a NSA mole seems like a "proper job"
yoleaux 10:40Z <psch> pmurias: "nqp bytecode" meant JAST here irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2016-10-25#i_13463907 which was just a case of me not picking the right words, as an AST clearly isn't bytecode...
seatek mmm
psch i mean, seriously 11:42
i do know it's kind of industry standard, but disregarding your trained professionals advice to adopt a given process because you don't understand it is just weird
because testing and specifications are clearly time sinks without any RoI vOv 11:43
but yeah, that's apparently normal :l 11:44
seatek it's probably a trust thing 11:46
timotimo testing and specifications are just stuff from the ivory tower
seatek i've found that if you lead people who don't understand something, in a very simple way, to why they maybe should consider things this way, it often works 11:48
but that's not always easy to do
they can just turn off if you spew too much at once, or get frustrated with them for being so dim 11:49
i think that have trust in, if you can explain it simply, then maybe you know something about it 11:50
and then you seduce them further, and lock them into contracts! and everyone's happy :) 11:51
i know very little about the Windows world though. they seem to only trust things where you spend the most money 11:52
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seatek it's weird 11:52
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psch seatek: well, it's the companys owner that would have to be convinced 12:06
seatek: and literally every employed developer already tried at least once
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dogbert17 o/ 12:07
timotimo :o
dogbert17 hi timotimo
.seen moritz
yoleaux I saw moritz 11 Nov 2016 16:07Z in #perl6: <moritz> Cole_ns: wow, that's a nice short one!
masak \o
timotimo o/
dogbert17 star: say 'o/' 12:08
camelia star-m 2016.04: OUTPUT«o/␤»
dogbert17 shouldn't we upgrade this
seatek psch: sounds like you may have a fool on your hands there. either that or a very insightful one who's willing to stand against the tide
psch: some kind of extreme at least :) 12:09
psch seatek: to me it seems mostly like the normal amount of change resistance
seatek: the business is some 10+ years old and back then they didn't write tests either and everything was fine
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seatek psch: ah, flying by the seat of the pants. i like that myself. but tests... i've begrudgingly come to really appreciate them. i can practically build a whole system all in just tests. it has too many benefits. surely he'll see that 12:11
psch seatek: i trust the other employees when they say they tried a lot but gave up and don't think i have better chances, honestly. i'll just run with it until something better comes along i think 12:12
masak seatek, psch: I find a lot of resistance to tests out there. I suspect it's because tests and TDD are difficult to knowledge-transfer. 12:14
why that is, I don't know
maybe it's the "eating your vegetables" effect
seatek yeah i used to look at it like that 12:15
why bother when you can get some real work done!
kinda surprised me when i found i was getting even more work done by writing tests. and being much more compartmentalized in my coding too 12:16
that's s weird hump for people to get over 12:17
i guess
masak yes, good point
it's a "local maximum" vs "global maximum" thing
or at least local vs better local :)
seatek :) yeah. i gives me so much more confidence to make changes too, that i don't know what the side-effects might be 12:18
i can't imagine not doing them any more
but i used to hate hate hate the thought of them
psch i do think that's the two big things, yeah 12:19
i mean, the "eating your vegetables" effect and "i could do real work instead"
seatek gawd i even like broccoli now 12:20
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seatek what's happened to me? 12:20
masak the testing mentality makes you like broccoli
seatek and spinach!
12:22 aindilis left
stmuk_ worked for popeye 12:28
masak as a post-testing person, I find it challenging to describe the post-testing world to pre-testing people 12:29
I'm guessing the Curse of Knowledge ends up interfering too
seatek i think i sometimes write too many tests. i get obsessed with fringe cases. 12:31
i suppose that's the danger
masak I don't see it that way, to be honest
pmurias masak: isn't liking broccoli a genetic thing?
masak that's the "drive" part of TDD
you write tests if and when you want to get somewhere
pmurias masak: as broccoli used to be really harmfull and some people evolved a distaste for it 12:32
seatek yeah
masak but I guess the other half of that is, um, "model satisfaction" or whatever
seatek harmful? lies of the broccoli haters!
masak I don't stop until I feel I've grokked what I'm implementing 12:33
timotimo i really like eating broccoli
seatek i dont' stop either. but sometimes i get mad when i have to refactor some code and then go redo tests. anger!
that was a lot of today for me actually 12:34
i'm cranky now
stupid tests
now i have broccoli on the brain too
timotimo you have "broccoli of the brain"? :) 12:35
seatek it's calling to me
masak seatek: "I have to re-do my tests when I refactor my code" is seriously a whole chapter in a book I should probably write
seatek cauliflour
masak seatek: at least that's a legit concern. but there are also ways to mitigate that, and make tests more future-resilient 12:36
seatek masak: please include stress-relieving practices in that chapter
i'm relying on perl forever keeping the way it returns .keys the same as it is now in my tests. 12:37
because i was too lazy to fully implement a foolproof testing way just yet
hahahaha! it will cause me pain one day soon! ahahahahaha! 12:38
i look forward it!
but today i am free!
masak oh, with .keys it's pretty simple
most of the time you want to sort the keys and assert on the result
but as for the future-resilience, probably the most important factor is to get away from asserting on getters and start thinking in terms of asserting on events/consequences 12:39
seatek i'm not completely dim... but it's generating strings.... from those keys... output of strings. i could sort, but there's never a need to in the code
yeah... i've been doing that more with database stuff 12:40
i was thinking about using grammars to test these strings 12:41
that are made from keys
but it feels excessive in tests :)
masak interestingly enough, writing tests in this way forces one to care a lot about what the API surface should be
which is a good thing
when the tests start to come out well-written, that's usually a good sign for the API as well :) 12:42
seatek yeah i'm trying to trick myself i think. but i'll never say for sure
that's what i'm loving about grammars actually
it's turning out to be a really good way for me to clearly document 12:43
I just hate Integers in grammars though
they seem more friendly to strings
I wish Integers could be empty 12:44
or if they are on the left, empty, something on the right that's empty would mean that it just stays empty 12:45
it would save so much seemingly pointless checking
jnthn seatek: Got an example of what you mean?
jnthn isn't sure what "integers in grammars" mean 12:46
seatek like when you're matching... and you go to an action 12:47
subject-id => $<data>.made[0].Int
if made[0] is empty... EVERYTHING DIES
psch m: my @a; say @a[0].?Int
camelia rakudo-moar dd7b05: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
psch warning, that's actually misleading cause it's not about empty or not but about "can you Int" and it could potentially can Int and still die :P 12:48
m: my @a = "foo"; say @a[0].?Int
camelia rakudo-moar dd7b05: OUTPUT«Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '3⏏5foo' (indicated by ⏏)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
psch m: my @a = "foo"; say $_ with @a[0].Int # probably more sensible there
camelia ( no output )
psch m: my @a = "10"; say $_ with @a[0].Int # probably more sensible there
camelia rakudo-moar dd7b05: OUTPUT«10␤»
seatek The best I can do is get it to give me a 0 if nothing was there -- but nothing doesn't mean 0 12:57
i need to test for emptiness first before assigning the key, or else just use a string, and worry about it being an Int later. ;) 12:58
that's the course i took
m: my $a; $a{'b'} = ''; say $a{'b'}.Int 12:59
camelia rakudo-moar dd7b05: OUTPUT«0␤»
seatek m: my $a; $a{'b'} = Empty; say $a{'b'}.Int
camelia rakudo-moar dd7b05: OUTPUT«0␤»
seatek m: my $a; $a{'b'} = Nil; say $a{'b'}.Int 13:00
camelia rakudo-moar dd7b05: OUTPUT«No such method 'Int' for invocant of type 'Any'␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
timotimo assigning Nil reverts a container to its default value 13:01
seatek m: Int $i = Nil
camelia rakudo-moar dd7b05: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Two terms in a row␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3Int7⏏5 $i = Nil␤ expecting any of:␤ infix␤ infix stopper␤ statement end␤ statement modifier␤ statement modif…»
seatek m: my Int $i = Nil
camelia ( no output )
seatek yeah
timotimo i wonder what performance characteristics a halite.io bot written in perl6 would have 13:03
seatek I mean, is "Empty" 0? Is '' 0 ? I mean really, in reality? ;)
psch m: grammar G { token TOP { $<a>=\d? { make (my Int $x = +$<a>) } } }; G.parse("").ast.say
camelia rakudo-moar dd7b05: OUTPUT«0␤»
timotimo i.e. what kinds of stuff you'd be able to do in the one second you're allowed to spend per turn
Empty is an empty list. when you .Int a list, you get the number of its elements
psch "in reality" is kinda weird there tbh
reality doesn't really have types
seatek ah! how about an empty string? 13:04
timotimo m: say +""
camelia rakudo-moar dd7b05: OUTPUT«0␤»
seatek reality has so many types!
timotimo BBL
seatek now, if Empty means list, does '' mean... 0? No strings? Aren't no strings also Empty? 13:05
And how can a string be 0 then?
psch and empty Str isn't Empty
s/and/an/
seatek hehe ;)
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seatek m: say so Empty ~~ 0 ; say so 0 ~~ Empty 13:07
camelia rakudo-moar dd7b05: OUTPUT«True␤False␤»
seatek i'm going to cry
psch ehh, that comparision is kinda flawed
'cause the RHS decides how to treat the LHS 13:08
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psch m: say so Empty ~~ { +$_ eqv 0 }; say so Empty ~~ { ~$_ eqv 0 } 13:08
camelia rakudo-moar dd7b05: OUTPUT«True␤False␤»
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seatek I contend then, that since the right is so smart, Int should be smart enough not to set itself to 0 on '' 13:10
it's like Int can never be anything but an Int... unless you've not touched it yet 13:11
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seatek it's happily an Int when you define the attribute.... 13:11
happily empty
but the minute you touch it or look at it, you can never get it back to that happy, empty state
oh my gosh i'm so tired i dont' even know if what i'm saying makes any sense.... :) 13:12
i love ints 13:13
i'm going to fall asleeping counting ints
psch m: say +Int
camelia rakudo-moar dd7b05: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value of type Int in numeric context␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤0␤»
seatek or rats maybe
psch already 0
just warns
seatek yeah string does the same warnings when it's not defined and you try to coerce it 13:14
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seatek i have test for defined ness like this: 13:15
subject => ($<subject><sym> // '').Str
hideous
but it works!
i need to just separate out those actions to each element individually instead of trying to assign them all at once into a hash 13:16
i mean those don't kill the script, you just get hundreds of warnings flyuing by 13:17
psch m: no warnings; say ~Str
camelia rakudo-moar dd7b05: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Don't know how to 'no warnings' just yet␤»
seatek like, yes, sweety, i know it's undefined...
psch ah hm
seatek yeah :) 13:18
i like a helpful program... but it's downright naggy with this one
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seatek oh my gosh.. night night. sorry if i'm crazy just now... zzzzzZzzz :) 13:19
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moritz \o 14:09
[ptc] o/ 14:10
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dogbert17 moritz, are you there? 14:31
moritz dogbert17: which "there" are you talking about? :-) 14:41
dogbert17 in Germany :-) 14:42
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dogbert17 moritz: was just gonna ask if you know who might be able to update Star, it's getting a bit old I think 14:43
raiph .tell Xliff Aiui the only thing that makes a data block in P6 a data block is that it's a pod block called 'data'. So the 'foo' and 'qux' blocks don't count. I'll tighten the SO lang to try make that clearer. 14:44
yoleaux raiph: I'll pass your message to Xliff.
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moritz dogbert17: wasn't there a 2016.10 star release already? 14:51
dogbert17 moritz: yes, I mean the evalbot 14:52
star: say 'hello' 14:53
camelia star-m 2016.04: OUTPUT«hello␤»
moritz dogbert17: oh. 14:55
AlexDaniel dogbert17: sometimes committable works too 14:59
(but it does not have all the modules installed)
commit: 2016.10 say ‘hello’
committable6 AlexDaniel, ¦«2016.10»: hello
AlexDaniel committable6: stdin reset 15:00
committable6 AlexDaniel, STDIN is reset to the default value
dogbert17 AlexDaniel: good to know, there are so many cool bots hanging around nowadays :)
AlexDaniel github.com/perl6/doc/issues/711#is...-235414744 for the list :) 15:02
dogbert17 AlexDaniel: thx for the link 15:05
moritz star: say 42 15:06
camelia star-m : OUTPUT«42␤»
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moritz star: say 42 15:07
camelia star-m : OUTPUT«42␤»
dogbert17 moritz: oh, is this the latest and greatest? 15:08
moritz dogbert17: yes, it just doesn't know it yet
dogbert17 :-)
moritz++
moritz star: say 6 * 8 15:09
camelia star-m 2016.10: OUTPUT«48␤»
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dogbert17 doc question: type-graph.txt contains both 'class X::Augment::NoSuchType does X::Comp' and 'class X::Augment::NoSuchType does X::Syntax'. Shouldn't the second one be removed? See github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/...n.pm#L1738 16:09
psch m: say X::Augment::NoSuchType.^roles 16:10
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«((Comp))␤»
psch m: say X::Comp.^roles
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«()␤»
16:10 ocbtec left
psch Augment::NoSuchType doesn't really seem syntax-y to me either, fwiw 16:10
16:10 pyrimidine left
psch just from a "do the names make sense there" perspective, y'know :) 16:10
dogbert17 psch++, I will remove it :) 16:11
MasterDuke my class X::Augment::NoSuchType does X::Comp {
in src/core/Exception.pm
so yeah, the second one seems wrong
dogbert17 and away it will go :-) 16:12
dalek c: f0ab29c | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | type-graph.txt:
class X::Augment::NoSuchType does not do X::Syntax. psch++, MasterDuke++
 16:15
c: a0de2a5 | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | type-graph.txt:
enum Order is Int was listed twice
 16:17
dogbert17 the second commit should hopefully solve github.com/perl6/doc/issues/984 16:18
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AlexDaniel awww, it is no longer visible how the graph looked in the past! 16:40
anyway, dogbert17++
timotimo why didn't anybody tell seatek about "quietly"?
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psch timotimo: i keep forgetting we have that 16:41
i tried 'no warnings' though..? :P
geekosaur I think quietly didn't quiet that last time I tried. things continue to evolve... 16:42
AlexDaniel timotimo: I have not seen the question. Does it sound like a good excuse? :)
psch m: say quietly +Int 16:43
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«0␤»
psch m: say quietly ~Int
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«␤»
timotimo sounds good to me
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dalek c: 213b76c | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | type-graph.txt:
Fixed typo
 16:52
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pmurias_ toolforger: re reproducibility if we verified that all the blobs in the repo where in fact built with nqp versions from the repo wouldn't we be protected against new blob backdoors 17:01
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toolforger yes, that's why I have such a dislike against those blobs. 17:10
They don't have source code 17:11
no comments that explain what they are, which objects are in and why 17:12
Maybe these compile-from-yourself problems are really just a special case of uninspectable-binary-blob problems
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RabidGravy as a complete change of subject has anyone got any better solutions for multiple version implementations of, say, a protocol in the same module than having multiple roles named for the versions? 17:34
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RabidGravy I'm almost wanting something like "module Protocol { class Foo:ver<0.1> { }; class Foo:ver<0.2> { } }" to work 17:35
psch you could make Protocol::Foo a factory i guess 17:36
not sure we have anything better there
but that kinda syntax might work out with a bit of MOP tweakery for a factory
like, it generates a Protocol::Foo.new(:$ver) and DTRT 17:37
RabidGravy yeah which goes back to the versioned named roles or similar
psch yeah, it does, just a bit fancy looking with some more startup overhead in the grammar
or well, precomp overhead i suppose
RabidGravy or something like long names in the provides section of the META 17:38
psch or do it php-ish, and have Protocol::Foo.do_thing_via_ver1 :P
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pmurias toolforger: re uninspectable, even if we had a disassembler nobody would read throught all the generated code 17:45
toolforger that's exactly my point
timotimo we do have a disassembler, though
toolforger I am wondering though - how were these blobs generated initially?
timotimo oh, wait
you mean reconstructing the original code
gotcha
toolforger: the very first version of nqp was written in PIR 17:46
toolforger oh
timotimo once we had an nqp, we added more features in nqp, then re-built the PIR from the nqp source code
more and more code got turned into nqp code and more and more PIR got phased out
eventually we got extra backends
we then used a cross-compilation setup to build stage0 for new backends
i.e. nqp-parrot ran, compiled itself, but spat out jvm or moarvm bytecode 17:47
toolforger wow
that's really far from any source code that ever existed
timotimo BBL 17:49
pmurias I guess we could reconstruct something with the readability of the orginal PIR code base from the moarvm bytecode
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toolforger which wouldn't be much of readability, right? 17:50
timotimo it'd be a noticable bit better
have you already tried moar --dump?
toolforger no 17:51
I think I'll have to revisit that doc directory first
timotimo well, it'll be helpful for this topic if you knew the readability-related properties of moar bytecode
toolforger true
timotimo nqp's doc folder, yes?
toolforger yep
timotimo ops.markdown is particularly helpful for reading moar bytecode
timotimo BBL for real
toolforger I think I read that, but could not make much from it 17:52
maybe it's going to be better on the second time, with more background info
AlexDaniel Some positive trend here github.com/perl6/doc/issues/561 17:57
dogbert17: perhaps see this ↑
who knows, maybe you'll find something fixable 17:59
[ptc] just typed `aptitude install perl6` for the first time. It felt soooo good :-) 18:00
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AlexDaniel [ptc]: and what version did it install? :) 18:00
… also, don't forget to remind us when ｢aptitude install zef｣ starts working… 18:01
[ptc] AlexDaniel: 2016.10 :-)
geekosaur if they're on testing then it's fairly recent
[ptc] the Debian Perl team has been doing a sterling job with keeping the packages up to date 18:02
AlexDaniel for about a year now, yes
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dogbert17 AlexDaniel: will take a look 18:18
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TimToady geekosaur: you probably noticed 'quietly' not working on compilation warnings...which it doesn't... 18:25
geekosaur no, it spawned a discussion about what things should be suppressable and what shouldn't 18:26
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geekosaur although now that I think back, it may have been about the perl 5-ism warnings, which weren't suppressible at the time 18:27
TimToady those are compiler warnings, not run-time, generally
geekosaur mm, right, so that wouldn't have been it.
TimToady quietly is dynamically scoped to run time
geekosaur ...and would not have been this because I am specifically recalling it being about Nil warnings
which would be runtime
so I don't recall why they weren't being suppressed :/ 18:28
TimToady well, if they were constant folded, they could happen at compile time 18:32
but match objects shouldn't be doing that 18:33
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dalek c: 67e6927 | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | doc/Type/ (3 files):
Fixed a few broken links
 18:38
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AlexDaniel dogbert17++ 18:50
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timotimo i'm back, was i missed? :3 19:19
19:20 Vynce left
moritz yes! 19:21
moritz hugs timotimo
dalek c: cbbc38a | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | doc/Language/classtut.pod6:
Fixed another broken link
 19:28
synopsebot6 Link: doc.perl6.org/language/classtut
timotimo yay 19:29
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cognominal hi, what is the way you have run a non existing command foo with &run, short of testing 'foo'.r && 'foo'.x to avoid to run it in the first place ? 19:38
.exitcode does not cut it because the command is not even run. 19:39
ho, there is a Proc.pid that is Any 19:40
nope, apparently it is not set or it is reset after the command is run 19:41
thought one can stack test for IO. 19:43
geekosaur this is a POSIX screw case. the usual convention is that exec failure sets the wait status to signal 0, exit -1/255
cognominal '/'.IO.d.r does not cut it 19:44
timotimo right, what you get from .d or something is just a Bool
geekosaur '/'.IO ~~ :d && :r # or something like that
cognominal ho, I forgot about that one 19:45
timotimo not quite
cognominal m: ?'/'.IO
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«WARNINGS for <tmp>:␤Useless use of "?" in expression "?'/'.IO" in sink context (line 1)␤»
cognominal m: say ?'/'.IO
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«True␤»
geekosaur no, I figured that wasn't quite right but I'm not recalling the specific syntax. (my memory wants to use a junction, but I am dubious) 19:48
that is, & instead of &&
huh, memory was right 19:49
m: say '/'.IO ~~ :d & :r
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«True␤»
geekosaur m: say '/'.IO ~~ :d & :w
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«False␤»
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cognominal I liked the '/'.IO.d.r # too bad. 19:50
geekosaur not going to get chaining like that without Icon-style failure instead of p6-style, I think
cognominal geekosaur, can you elaborate ? 19:51
geekosaur (in Icon, there is no False, it fails instead. if it succeeds, the other one is taken. and fail does not throw an exception, it boolifies to False)
cognominal ho, I get it 19:52
geekosaur (sort of. since there's no False, you test success/fail not true/false)
the main reason not to do things this way is that you end up with an evaluation style that backtracks, which confuses people
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cognominal the problem with '/'.IO.d.r is that .r would be called even if .d returns a false IO 19:56
geekosaur in Icon that's not a problem because almost anything that gets &fail immediately produces &fail without doing anything else 19:58
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dalek c: b33f95e | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | / (2 files):
Added docs for X::Proc::Unsuccessful
 20:11
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moritz m: say ':'.uniname 20:16
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«COLON␤»
moritz m: say 42.uninmae 20:18
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«No such method 'uninmae' for invocant of type 'Int'␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
moritz m: say 42.uniname
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«ASTERISK␤»
moritz
.oO( I expected OBELISK )
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BenGoldberg m: say 42.chr 20:22
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«*␤»
BenGoldberg m: say $_.chr for first *.uniname ~~ /OBELISK/, ^0x10ffff; 20:23
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«WhateverCode object coerced to string (please use .gist or .perl to do that)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤Use of Nil in numeric context␤ in block at <tmp> line 1␤␀␤»
BenGoldberg m: say *.uniname ~~ /OBELISK/ for 42; 20:24
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«WhateverCode object coerced to string (please use .gist or .perl to do that)␤ in block at <tmp> line 1␤Nil␤»
BenGoldberg m: say { .uniname ~~ /OBELISK/ } for 42;
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«-> ;; $_? is raw { #`(Block|69980304) ... }␤»
BenGoldberg m: say do { .uniname ~~ /OBELISK/ } for 42;
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
BenGoldberg m: say do { .uniname ~~ /K/ } for 42;
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«｢K｣␤»
BenGoldberg m: say first { .uniname ~~ /K/ }, ^256; 20:25
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«6␤»
BenGoldberg m: say uniname first { .uniname ~~ /K/ }, ^256;
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«ACKNOWLEDGE␤»
BenGoldberg m: say uniname first { .uniname ~~ /OBE/ }, ^256;
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«Cannot resolve caller uniname(Nil); none of these signatures match:␤ (Str:D $str)␤ (Int:D $code)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
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BenGoldberg m: say uniname first { .uniname ~~ /OBE/ }, ^0x110000; 20:26
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«SYRIAC HARKLEAN OBELUS␤»
TEttinger BenGoldberg: are you looking for a menhir or standing stone? 20:27
BenGoldberg Whichever one I can put my feet on?
TEttinger 🚀 20:29
BenGoldberg wonders why first, when it fails, returns Nil, instead of, say Mu, or an empty Slip.
m: '🚀'.uniname.say;
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«ROCKET␤»
TEttinger IIRC an obelisk is an upright pillar-like stone often carved with historically-significant things 20:30
toolforger IIRC an obelus was a coin
TEttinger menhirs are uh... not as significant, the "men" is exactly what it suggests and what the shapes of the stones are meant to suggest
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AlexDaniel m: say “$_ → {.uniname}” for (0..0x1FFFF).grep({.uniname ~~ /OBE/})».chr 20:31
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«܋ → SYRIAC HARKLEAN OBELUS␤܌ → SYRIAC HARKLEAN METOBELUS␤⸓ → DOTTED OBELOS␤㋉ → IDEOGRAPHIC TELEGRAPH SYMBOL FOR OCTOBER␤🌍 → EARTH GLOBE EUROPE-AFRICA␤🌎 → EARTH GLOBE AMERICAS␤🌏 → EARTH GLOBE ASIA-AUSTRALIA␤🌐 …»
[ptc] has an Asterix flashback
AlexDaniel bench: HEAD say “$_ → {.uniname}” for (0..0x1FFFF).grep({.uniname ~~ /OBE/})».chr 20:32
benchable6 AlexDaniel, starting to benchmark the 1 given commit
AlexDaniel, ¦«HEAD»:0.9683
AlexDaniel bench: 2015.12 say “$_ → {.uniname}” for (0..0x1FFFF).grep({.uniname ~~ /OBE/})».chr
benchable6 AlexDaniel, starting to benchmark the 1 given commit
AlexDaniel, ¦«2015.12»:1.1704 20:33
AlexDaniel hm, does not look like that much of a difference
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Louis_ As far as I know, the "men" in "menhir" means "stone," and the "hir" means "long." See 21:11
www.thefreedictionary.com/menhir
toolforger Question is: in what language? That of the original builders, that of the various tribes that lived there? 21:12
stmuk French via Middle Breton 21:15
TEttinger the purpose is still a washington monument-esque phallic symbol
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TEttinger they weren't watch towers and served no practical purpose 21:16
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toolforger The Bretons didn't build them, so... 21:44
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TimToady my youngest granson is named Asterix, actually... 22:04
*grand
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atweiden-air i've come up with a syntax for literate programming 22:23
gist.github.com/anonymous/adb4f36e...f22bb9d8f5
it's based on markdown, but i want to see a pod6 version of it
i'm not too familiar with pod, anyone willing to take a crack at it?
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atweiden-air (based on github.com/zyedidia/Literate) 22:24
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AlexDaniel atweiden-air: well, perhaps you can take a look at some pod6 file and try it yourself 22:31
atweiden-air: for example: github.com/perl6/doc/blob/master/d...mmars.pod6
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atweiden-air hmmm 22:44
gist.github.com/anonymous/29a7efa5...d32b93cc0d
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atweiden-air is this viable in pod parsers C<=begin code :spurt('hangman.pl6')> 22:47
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MasterDuke regex/grammar question. is there a way to match the negation of a capture? 22:56
m: if "a12a3a" ~~ /(<[ab]>) (<-[$0]>+) $0/ { say $/ }
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«｢a12a3a｣␤ 0 => ｢a｣␤ 1 => ｢12a3｣␤»
MasterDuke where i want $1 to be ｢12｣
AlexDaniel m: if "a12a3a" ~~ /(<[ab]>) (.*) <?{ so $0 ne $1.comb.any }> $0/ { say $/ } 23:00
camelia rakudo-moar aa86b9: OUTPUT«｢a12a｣␤ 0 => ｢a｣␤ 1 => ｢12｣␤»
AlexDaniel MasterDuke: that's not it, but still…
I mean, that's probably going to work, but it is very inefficient 23:01
grondilu the default indenting function in Vim does not work very well for Perl 6 IMHO. What do you guys use? 23:02
seatek I use emacs and a perl6-mode and it works pretty great. except for sometimes... ;) 23:03
MasterDuke AlexDaniel: nice. that'll probably be too inefficient for what i'm doing, but i hadn't even thought of that
AlexDaniel yea, that's what I've been doing for a long time too
and you know, if you like vim style of editing you can try evil or spacemacs or whatever… 23:04
seatek my favorite command is :q! 23:05
or ZZ 23:06
the rest is very stresful
AlexDaniel hm, the only feature I miss is probably V
haven't found any good alternative to that *yet*
seatek i'm googling 23:07
V doesnt exist 23:08
it's a weird fantasy 23:09
oh! visual mode line-wise
hmm 23:10
AlexDaniel yeah, I know several ways to do that but no easy one
El_Che grondilu: I wrote a post my perl6 vim config: nxadm.wordpress.com/2016/08/21/vim...-6-editor/ 23:20
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seatek i use it sometimes on machines where i don't want to leave "~" strewn about. But I don't know it well enough. It always makes me feel like I'm using a Turing machine. 23:21
I need to spend some time getting comfortable with it. 23:22
But i've been saying that for... oh my gosh... my memory is failing
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geekosaur bring back tv.exe :p 23:24
(tops-20)
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garu hello! quick question: 'class C { method x (*%args) {} }; my $c = C.new; $c.x(foo => 42, bar => 21);' works as expected, but if I quote the keys, I get "Too many positionals passed; expected 1 argument but got 3" 23:49
i.e. 'class C { method x (*%args) {} }; my $c = C.new; $c.x("foo" => 42, "bar" => 21);' 23:50
timotimo aye, pairs with quoted keys will not become named arguments 23:51
because quotes allow interpolation. for dynamic names of keyword arguments/named arguments, you'll have to use a hash and flattening to use that
garu timotimo: is this by design? is it documented somewhere? I must be looking at the wrong place, sorry 23:54
timotimo by design. let me see if i find docs that tell about it
docs.perl6.org/language/functions#Arguments 23:55
there's a "not a named argument" example there

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