»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz on 22 December 2015.
samcv err no 9.24x faster 00:00
yay
raschipi yay!
taht's awesome, samcv
samcv to get a really nice boost when the haystack is made up of strands, i could have the KMP algorithm use a grapheme iterator but that'd be a lot of work since instead of getting a grapheme by index in the string it gets each one, one after another 00:02
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samcv raschipi, i wonder if that makes building rakudo any faster 00:08
since that may happen a lot
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raschipi It's like the linux kernel hackers, the usecase they care most when developing the scheduler is someone working on code while GCC runs on the back 00:09
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samcv what i think i'm gonna make is a caching grapheme iterator 00:12
it stores a normal grapheme iterator plus also stores its current location and it caches the value it last returned, so you can request the same grapheme a second time and it'll pass it back to you 00:13
since the knuth morris pratt algorithm never goes backwards but very often can check the same grapheme twice
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skids Heck I'm enjoying the 60-second 'Stage parse' these days. Used to be like 79. 00:14
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raschipi You know linux has special support for that, right? Building in the background while coding... Launch builds in a separate session and the kernel will ensure the active one is completely responsive. 00:14
samcv raschipi, ah has it already sped up a lot? 00:15
skids Well, the 79 seconds was probably like 4 months ago or so.
raschipi <ctrl>-<alt>-<f1-12> will start a new session, and you can go back with <alt>-<f1-12>.
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samcv yeah i know that 00:15
raschipi samcv: No, it will be s little bit slower, but won't make a text editor lag. 00:16
skids raschipi: us ancients just call that "switching VTs"
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raschipi Yeah, but the important part here is that it also changes the session, not just th vt. vt-> console subsystem concept. session->scheduler concept 00:18
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raschipi This is a sysadmin nitpick, of course, but it's possible to build linux with CONFIG_VT=n so one doesn't have virtual terminals anymore (except for the pseudo ones) but there will still be sessions. 00:26
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raschipi The init system will launch each service in a new session but won't connect them to a vt. When connecting the kernel log ring to a vt, there will be a vt but no session. 00:32
skids just use setsid(1)? 00:35
samcv wow. ok it works. my caching grapheme iterator. neato 00:40
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raschipi skids, then youll have to be the session leader and there's plenty of setup, it's not straighforward. Anywy I was just explaining why I used precise terminology instead of the traditional one. 00:46
samcv: how much faster?
samcv is a ricer.
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Geth doc: 8bef23dbba | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | 2 files
remove trailing whitespace
 00:51
doc: 8cc9276751 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | doc/Language/faq.pod6
fix some nbsps"
doc: 43d883053c | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | doc/Language/faq.pod6
fix typo
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Zoffix Wonder if GitHub tries to be too smart and converts nbsps to spaces when you're using the online editor... I'm fairly certain I did insert nbsps in those FAQ sentences when I edited them 00:58
samcv nice i'm getting 2.5x faster nqp::index when the Haystack is made up of strands with caching and saving the graphemeiterator 01:00
\o/
mst I wouldn't trust the online editor for anything personally; ingy's git-hub plus a command line actually does what it's told. but I know that's me being a curmudgeon, so please don't take that as a criticism or whatever
samcv did some statistics doing nqp::index("aaaag" x 100000000 ~ 'h', 'aaagh')
cache_hit: 200000000 jump: 0 next: 500000000 # so 200000000 times it requested the same grapheme again. and 500000000 times requested the grapheme after the previous 01:01
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Zoffix samcv++ awesome 01:01
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samcv these are some of the stats i just got: gist.github.com/samcv/f885c0590515...644198055d 02:32
that's pretty awesome
2.5x faster, even matching 'ba' which doesn't have the 1st grapheme matching the haystack anywhere 02:33
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samcv gonna push `index` 9x speed boost when Haystack is strand, needle is 1 long. will hopefully merge the grapheme caching with the next week after input from jnthn 02:35
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japhb samcv: Is there a fast path failure for the needle being longer than the haystack? What about same length (where index is essentially a check for string equality)? 02:42
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samcv yeah there is 02:47
if needle is longer than the haystack nqp::index will just return -1
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protium Is running with the bignum pragma conceptually similar to perl6 rats? Any big differences performance wise? 03:08
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Xliff How do I insure rakudobrew uses a parallelized build? 03:11
samcv protium, no. that creates big numbers but it still does floating point logic i think from looking at the documentation page. perl 6 has rational numbers whic hcontain the numerator and denominator so it doesn't loose accuracy 03:15
protium samcv: Ah, ok, so even more precision 03:16
samcv yep
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Xliff *cries* -- His rakudobrew still takes almost 90 seconds for stage parse. 03:37
Of course, this is on a 32-bit VM.
I quickly hacked rakudobrew to add parallel builds. Didn't notice much improvement. 03:38
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samcv Xliff, parallel how. 03:52
BenGoldberg protium, There is a perl5 pragma 'bigrat' which you might compare perl6's rats to. 03:53
protium BenGoldberg: Maybe I should use that. I am reconciling thousands of currency transactions at the office
BenGoldberg: I like the idea of perl6 rats, but there's no perl6 at the office, so perl5 it is 03:54
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Xliff samcv 04:31
samcv: Adding the proper argument to GNU's make
-J I think
samcv -j
Xliff so -J <num threads>
Oh. Well.
samcv that won't do too much
Xliff :( 04:32
No, it won't help stage parse, but it should get there faster. :/
samcv i have: alias make="make -j $(($(nproc) - 1))"
but most of the perl 6 stuff is linear since it's bootstrapping compilier 04:33
japhb protium: Currency math is often fixed-point (neither floating point nor abitrary-denominator rational arithmetic). 04:41
protium japhb: That makes sense — is there a better way to do it than I was thinking? I am certainly no expert 04:42
japhb Just something to watch out for ... the difference may show up as e.g. a few pennies off in a pile of calculations.
As for a better way ... well, when I did that kind of work, I did all calculations in whole millicents. 04:43
(So every amount specified in fractional dollars was multiplied by 100,000 and carried out in exact integer math)
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japhb I carried millicents in all internal data structures, and converted at first input and final output. 04:44
protium japhb: I thought about that too, and then thought it would be tedious converting back and forth. Nevertheless, that's probably what I should do, too
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protium And you're right about the differences, I am pennies out here and there 04:46
But that gets annoying when reconciling, so I finally thought I should clean it up
japhb However you do it, make sure your test suite is strong enough to catch common mistakes (mixing floating point, rational, and fixed-point match in different calculations -- easy to do when you e.g. calculation taxes or interest -- forgetting to convert fixed point back and forth)
(Trivia: One of the first major cases of international computer espionage was discovered because of a penny-scale failure to reconcile two different computer billing systems.) 04:47
protium Very interesting. 04:48
Is there somewhere I can read about that?
japhb Clifford Stoll: The Cuckoo's Egg.
I can't believe I can still remember that off the top of my head.
protium And yes, that's a good point, I should write some more tests when I refactor
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raschipi If you're up to a deep refactoring, you could write types that did all the boring stuf and them teach the operators how to deal with them. This way you'd get rid of the cruft and have clean code at the end. 04:51
teatime japhb: neat. 04:52
raschipi And have them write out the correct format when you convert to string.
japhb Oh, one final bit: When you do need to do a calculation where you'll have to temporary work in higher precision -- calculating tax on your value in millicents, for example -- remember to round-to-even when going back to your fixed-point format. This keeps half values from always rounding the same way and slowly drifting the calculation in a single direction, rather than jittering around zero error. That drift was why round-to-even was invented; it would become vi
teatime cut off, "it would become vi" ... 04:53
protium Thanks for that! Yes, that's a really good idea
japhb it would become visible in stock exchange transaction levels.
protium Both, though I am not sure that I want to do as deep a refactoring as to start making types, though that would probably yield the cleanest code in the end... 04:54
japhb At some point you have to stop yak shaving. :-)
raschipi protium: do it and them publish it as a module so that other people can ensure your math works 04:57
protium Well, could roll my own there, or probably I could just use Math::Currency 04:59
raschipi You know how it works, the easiest way to get the correct answer is not to ask for it, but to publish the wrong one. 05:00
japhb raschipi: That only works if the right person happens to notice said wrong answer. :-)
raschipi Well, he could come here and tell you he figured a better way of doing it. 05:01
protium: Yeah, write perl6 bindings to it and you're set. 05:02
protium Decisions, decisions... 05:03
Well, thanks for all the info, this will be good. Hopefully doing this will eliminate the small current amount of glitchiness that I've got
raschipi G'night people. 05:05
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japhb Good night all, and good luck protium 05:12
protium Thanks, night
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timotimo 8o/ from the venue 06:41
yoleaux 24 Aug 2017 17:47Z <brrt> timotimo: that's way overthinking it
timotimo oops, the 8 came out of nowhere
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timotimo looks like all my friends who already saw dconway's "three little words" talk decided to stay at the hotel for a bit longer :P 06:49
making slides and such
ryu0 timotimo: were those three little words "three little words"? 06:51
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nadim good morning. I've had some problems with promises. I shared them with jnth yesterday but I thought it would be of in terest for more people gist.github.com/nkh/f482d398b8db00...9975723fbc 06:55
timotimo: ^^ may interest you too
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timotimo ryu0: that'd be cool, too, but it was actually different words 06:57
nadim jnth proposes I report at least some of those, would that format be enough?
timotimo i'm not exactly sure which refers to which, i.e. "the first" vs "the second" vs "the third" 07:02
nadim right, I did change the text a bit to make it clearer... I failed :). Let me change that again :) 07:05
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nadim with the nuber and text where it hould be gist.github.com/nkh/9942e800c8e0f8...7f79cb4c25 07:08
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timotimo the random errors aren't supposed to happen, that much i know 07:16
the memory map under the stack trace is probably completely worthless, i'd throw it out to reduce the necessary amount of scrolling 07:17
it'd be nice if you could reproduce these issues with --ll-exception so we get at least a bit of a clue what's happening
nadim The other errors, too many threads and the slowing down, may not be fatal errors but to a lambda dev, ike me, they are total show stoppers. 07:18
I'll write a little blog entry about this, it be interesting to see if other have had similar problems. 07:19
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timotimo i don't know what a "lambda dev" is :) 08:57
jnthn talk now \o/
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timotimo oh crap i think the junction folding optimization is broken again … 09:09
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nadim timotimo: you don't want to know ;) 09:26
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piojo tadzik: I seem to have made rakudobrew (windows) play nice with msys and cygwin 10:26
tadzik oh, cool! 10:27
piojo But it in required a less "libified" approach--for example, FindBind just doesn't work with cygwin
and of course, chomp() is not smart enough to detect which line endings it's dealing with
tadzik heh
piojo If that's cool with you, I'll clean it up, upload it, and submit a pull request
actually, I ought to do a bit more testing. I haven't used any capabilities besides "zef" yet 10:28
I'm sure I'm not done yet, but I haven't found the rest of the incompatibilities
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Zoffix \o/ 10:30
Awesome.
piojo tadzik: though I'm not talking about building it--just running. (rakudo star can run from msys, and it can PARTIALLY run from cygwin, but rakudobrew can't do either)
tadzik nodnod 10:31
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timotimo yo tadzik o/ 11:35
tadzik o/ 11:36
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piojo tadzik: I pushed to github and made the pull request 12:10
That was way too much debugging to just change a few lines of code!
tadzik :) 12:11
piojo (Err, I mean it only needed a few lines changed in the end)
tadzik I remember spending about 4 hours to fix 4 characters of code at $work long time ago :)
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piojo You got me beat for sure :) 12:14
though I bet someone has spent a month removing one byte from binary data... 12:15
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tadzik hehe, probably 12:17
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moritz or several weeks chasing a bug that turned out to be not a bug 12:29
lizmat .tell nadim re blogs.perl.org/users/nadim_khemir/2...mises.html , will probably take until after the weekend before it will see more core eyes due to SPW 12:30
yoleaux lizmat: I'll pass your message to nadim.
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ufobat max last bug was a configuration issue :) 12:56
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Geth doc: 3556160fd8 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/glossary.pod6
Add "Huffmanize" to glossary
 13:32
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timotimo i wonder if slang::tuxic distorts line number information? 14:16
because the line numbers i get in my profile are weird
i really really need to finish the profiler tui explorer
lizmat yes, you do! 14:19
raschipi profiler tui explorer sounds sweet 14:21
timotimo it can already display a tiny bit of stuff
then i got distracted wanting to write a unicode-and-ansi-color segmented-bar-graph thingie 14:22
sadly it's not trivial :P
but it is pretty
i.imgur.com/tnhR6Zp.png
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nadim lizmat: as long as it get's some attention I am good :) My worry is not for my ownm insignificant little toy, it's the fear that people who come to P6 to get a feel for what it can get discouraged. I've been waiting for Christmas long enough to be able to wait for the next Christmas. 14:51
yoleaux 12:30Z <lizmat> nadim: re blogs.perl.org/users/nadim_khemir/2...mises.html , will probably take until after the weekend before it will see more core eyes due to SPW
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nadim and Jonathan dig give a few answers yersterday. It's just that if the basic 'start' crashes, burns, and core dumps, there is little incentive to try the rest. 14:53
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raschipi_ Grrr, Linux 4.12 doesn't like my computer 14:56
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Xliff timotimo: OooOOOoooOOoo colors! 14:57
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Xliff raschipi_: Kernel panics? Or just doesn't install? 14:58
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raschipi_ Reboots without showing a backtrace, nothing in the logs. 15:01
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Xliff gist.github.com/Xliff/c66c6b6871ec...374fd6ee76 15:08
Trying to resolve a segfault when using zmq 4.2 and Net-ZMQ
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lancew Hello all, I am experiencing issues installing DBIish, with NativeHelpers::Blob failing, is this something others have encountered? 15:23
Here is example of the errors I see: gist.github.com/lancew/cd281098cf7...f1a4a9098e 15:25
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ugexe hey lancew - it ended up being an error in DBIish that never bubbled up until the last rakudo release 15:28
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lancew ugexe ok, I thought someone else would have to have encountered this 15:29
ugexe give me a minute and i'll see if i cant get you a workaround
lancew Thanks! 15:30
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ugexe darn, looks like there is another error though (which I remember nine found a week or so back) 15:35
zef install github.com/ugexe/NativeHelpers-Blob.git@3108ac4 (this has your error patched, but then hits the second problem :( )
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ugexe what perl6 -v btw? 15:36
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ugexe a good project for someone might be to remove NativeHelpers::Blob from DBIish 15:40
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lancew I'm using Rakudobrew and have this: Rakudo version 2017.07-148-g5fcce6732 built on MoarVM version 2017.07-378-g5e94da03 15:41
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ugexe i saw this having no idea what NativHelpers::Blob does, however 15:41
say
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lancew LOL... me neither 15:42
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ugexe lancew: what about `rakudobrew switch moar-2017.07`? 15:42
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lancew I shall try 15:43
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MasterDuke or 2017.08 15:43
ugexe it fails on 08
it works on 07
(the original fork, not the modified one I posted) 15:44
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MasterDuke ah 15:44
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lancew Hmm... that switch is not working for me, says:$ rakudobrew switch moar-2017.07 15:47
Sorry, I have no idea what 'moar-2017.07' is
ugexe you'd have to `rakudobrew build moar 2017.07` first then 15:48
ryu0 But waits, there's moar!
lancew ahhh ok
ryu0 :)
raschipi lancew neds moar moar
lancew lol
lancew sits and watches some git cloning... 15:49
ryu0 just what I always wanted to watch. the git reproductive process. :P
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sumdoc Doesn't perl6 support argument -e ? 15:53
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[Coke] sumdoc: sure it does. 15:53
sumdoc Why perl6 -e 'say "Hello" ' throwing error?
[Coke] $ perl6 -e 'say 3.^name' 15:54
Int
It's just you. What's the rror? (if it's big, nopaste it)
sumdoc Coke This is the error I am getting ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling -e Unable to parse expression in single quotes; couldn't find final "'" at -e:1 ------> 'say<HERE><EOL> expecting any of: single quotes term 15:55
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[Coke] sumdoc: perl6 --version ? 15:55
what OS?
sumdoc Coke This is Rakudo version 2017.07 built on MoarVM version 2017.07 implementing Perl 6.c. 15:56
[Coke] did you cut and paste the command you're running exactly?
sumdoc Windows 10 64 bit
Coke Yes
Coke Can you see the last comment in this discussion by Yihui 15:57
stackoverflow.com/questions/458579...9_45869682
lancew sumdoc, does Coke's example work for you ( perl6 -e 'say 3.^name' )?
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sumdoc lancew No. Its throwing this error "===SORRY!=== Error while compiling -e Unable to parse expression in single quotes; couldn't find final "'" at -e:1 ------> 'say<HERE><EOL> expecting any of: single quotes term" 15:58
jnthn iirc, the Windows command prompt doesn't deal with single quotes, only double 15:59
perl6 -e "say 'hello'" likely works
[Coke] checking.
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sumdoc Coke lancew Looks like bug in the windows build. It though works in this docker image hub.docker.com/r/sumdoc/exper2/ 16:00
[Coke] jnthn++ has it. 16:01
lancew That would make sense sumdoc that docker image is Debian. :-)
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[Coke] works fine with double quotes as the command quotes. 16:01
[Coke] hurls stackoverflow.com/questions/241738...atch-files 16:02
lancew now has a happy looking DBIish install, cheers!
[Coke] the docker image is no doubt running a linux variant, where the shell can handle either quoting mechanism.
TimToady on windows you have to use "" for shell quoting, don't you?
lancew goes back to trying his hand at Bailador 16:03
TimToady oh, jnthn++ got it already
and [Coke]++
TimToady crawls back to his coffeemaker
lancew lol... now watching "zef install bailador" install. Should have figured out that I'd need to install that again too. :-) 16:04
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[Coke] TimToady: I was kidding about nbsp'ing the version, probably don't do that. :) 16:05
TimToady figgered
ugexe strange, after installing DBIish in 2017.07 I switched back to 2017.08 and its no longer failing 16:06
lancew ugexe, odd. I'll try in a sec also
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ufobat lancew, i am going to make a new bailador release today or tomorrow, fyi 16:08
sumdoc Coke TimToady jnthn With double quote, yeah it works
ugexe or just use powershell 16:09
lancew ufobat, great stuff. I'm slowly getting there with it. :-) 16:11
p.s. you were totally right about the PR I sent about the prefix-enter. #newbie
ufobat, are you likely to be attending the London Perl Workshop in November? 16:13
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Zoffix waves to sumdoc 16:19
Glad to know you're planning to work on some tutorials :)
lancew is Entering the dance floor: 127.0.0.1:3000 :-) 16:20
sumdoc Zoffix Aye thanks :)
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lancew ugexe, I just built 2017.08 and DBIish installed OK for me also 16:34
Back in a while folsk, thanks for the help
S/folsk/folks/ 16:35
Zoffix Any time.
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mst do we have any UK people who'd like to talk at freenode.live/ ? 16:37
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moritz
.oO( is UK a new UX trend? :D )
 17:16
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El_Che _sfiguser: but if you're just trying, that's something for lat 17:24
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Xliff goans at moritz, then giggles because that was so bad, it was actually pretty good. 17:46
huf moritz: yes, it stands for User Killing, the final solution to all UI problems. 17:47
Xliff huf++ # mic drop
huf unfortunately it has other unrelated flaws that make it not terribly attractive
Xliff huf: What? Like not working well with other, similar initiatives for no good reason? ;> 17:48
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huf nah, things like weeping widows/mothers/orphans, being jailed, losing paying customers 17:49
Xliff s/not working well/not wanting to work/
huf the third one is the most serious problem, the first two can be solved with socks and money, respectively. 17:50
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Xliff Any kind of UI trend that wants to apply anything like "*exit" should be looked at very closely. 17:50
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raschipi funroll-loops.info/ is out... 18:09
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pmurias hi 18:34
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Zoffix \o 18:38
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pmurias Zoffix: modules.perl6.org always displays the builtin modules when doing a tagged search, should I make a PR to fix that? 18:43
Zoffix pmurias: sure 18:46
Probably can add tags to core modules here: github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org...Modules.pm
And then do a similar grep on tag, but on $core_dists here: github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org...oot.pm#L75 18:47
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Zoffix (P.S.: the test suite is bitrotten and many tests fail, so don't use it to gauge your cahnges) 18:53
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Ulti freenode.live/ <--- this is a ten minute walk from my flat... \o/ 21:38
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pyrimidine .oO ( Funny, just when I join back I get dropped by a bad wireless connection ) :P 21:45
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Zoffix :) 22:00
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