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»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend! Set by moritz on 22 December 2015. |
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| Geth | modules.perl6.org/cpan-support: 0a3fa9823c | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 5 files Render markdown READMEs |
00:09 | |
| Zoffix | grrr.. that was positively unfun | ||
| Zoffix switches personal preference for Markdown over POD6 to prefer POD6 instead | |||
| Gotta be easier to manipulate | |||
| Well, I think the prototype is merge-ready. It's presentable and the rest can be polished on master | 00:11 | ||
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| Zoffix | BTW, "expression" JIT backend got merged today. Over a year of work. Almost 500 commits. Will let us optimize more. github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/pull/674 | 00:30 | |
| rakudo HEAD already using it | |||
| brrt++ | |||
| skids | wow. | 00:31 | |
| hoffentlichja | Zoffix: nice, I saw your tweet | ||
| will it being used by default or do you have to specify some flag to use the JIT? | |||
| be* | |||
| Zoffix | JIT is used by default, unless you're on 32bit box | 00:33 | |
| hoffentlichja | will there be any difference felt in performance with he JIT enabled compared to previous versions? | 00:34 | |
| I mean right now, before optimizations | 00:35 | ||
| dpk | is there a formal definition somewhere of how Perl 6 matches character classes like \w and \d given that it works on graphemes not codepoints? 'word character' and 'digit character' are, in Unicode, properties of codepoints i believe | 00:36 | |
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| Zoffix | buggable: speed 10 :4 | 00:38 | |
| buggable | Zoffix, ↑ dates: 2017-10-01–2017-10-03 | ||
| Zoffix, ▄ █ range: 3.154s–3.579s | |||
| Zoffix, ▅█▃▇█▅ speed: 2% faster | |||
| Zoffix, ██████▃▁▄▆ | |||
| TEttinger | dpk: I don't think they are definitively defined in unicode, word character in particular has some weird behavior across platforms that seems very non-standardized | ||
| Zoffix | hoffentlichja: I'd say it's within the noise and I think that was expected. I'm really a n00b with this stuff. You could try hunting down brrt on #moarvm. They're the ones who did all this work and would know more | ||
| dpk | where the first codepoint of the grapheme is a word/digit character it seems to match, but there are Complications™ about the definition of a grapheme | ||
| TEttinger: well, right. how does Perl 6 definitively define it for Perl 6 purposes? | 00:39 | ||
| Zoffix | The docs say "\w matches a single word character; i.e., a letter (Unicode category L), a digit or an underscore. " | 00:40 | |
| hoffentlichja | Zoffix: ok thanks, It's not so important, I was only curious | ||
| TEttinger | it's a good question. I've seen some places allow a-zA-Z0-9_ only, others extend that to all Letter category and Number category codepoints plus either _ or the whole subcategory of connectors | ||
| so that sounds like L, Nd, and the single char _ | 00:41 | ||
| Zoffix | In this section: docs.perl6.org/language/regexes#Ba...er_classes | ||
| TEttinger | oh that's weird, N not Nd | ||
| dpk | Zoffix: so any grapheme containing one of those codepoints will match? (which, given that limited definition, i think implies that it will be the first codepoint in the grapheme) | ||
| Zoffix | m: say "༳" ~~ /\w/ | 00:42 | |
| camelia | Nil | ||
| Zoffix | TEttinger: No don't seem to match | ||
| dpk | there are, as i mentioned, complications | ||
| TEttinger | m: say "༳" ~~ /\d/ | ||
| camelia | Nil | ||
| TEttinger | docs seem wrong then | ||
| Zoffix | dpk: no idea. I don't know this stuff, but I think a combiner would attain properties of the char its being applied on, so "7\x[308]" would match a \d and a \d | ||
| TEttinger | "\d matches a single digit (Unicode property N)" | 00:43 | |
| which seems empirically incorrect... | |||
| dpk | yeah, that's what i've found in my experimentation so far | ||
| TEttinger | m: say "1" ~~ /\d/ | ||
| camelia | ｢1｣ | ||
| dpk | m: say "1\x[300]23" ~~ /\d+/ | ||
| camelia | ｢1̀23｣ | ||
| Zoffix | Yeah. We should get moritz++ to rake through the docs and correct them once he's done with his grammar book :PO) | ||
| TEttinger | uhhh | 00:44 | |
| Zoffix | Or samcv++ to rake through the docs and correct them, once she rested from the Unicode grant :D | ||
| TEttinger | where's samcv when you need her unicode expertise... | ||
| samcv | hey TEttinger | ||
| i have been summoned! | |||
| Zoffix | \o/ | ||
| TEttinger | hallo! | ||
| do you know why 1 with a diacritic counts as a \d char? | |||
| dpk | m: say "\x1100\x11A2" ~~ /\w/ | 00:45 | |
| camelia | ｢ᄀᆢ｣ | ||
| dpk | okay, so it handle Hangul correctly | ||
| TEttinger | dinner for meeeee | ||
| dpk | m: say "🇪🇺" ~~ /\w/ | 00:46 | |
| camelia | Nil | ||
| Zoffix | TEttinger: because the resultant grapheme still has Nd property | ||
| dpk | Zoffix: Nd isn't a property of graphemes though, is it? it's a property of codepoints | ||
| Zoffix | It's a pain in the butt when you want to just match digits | 00:47 | |
| dpk | well then you can just say [0-9] | ||
| Zoffix | Oh, no idea | ||
| dpk | it explains that in the docs | ||
| Zoffix | No, but I want all the digits | ||
| dpk | m: say "1\x[300]23" ~~ /[0-9]+/ | ||
| camelia | 5===SORRY!5=== Unrecognized regex metacharacter - (must be quoted to match literally) at <tmp>:1 ------> 3say "1\x[300]23" ~~ /[07⏏5-9]+/ Unable to parse expression in metachar:sym<[ ]>; couldn't find final ']' at <tmp>:1 ------> 3… |
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| Zoffix | m: say "1\x[300]23" ~~ /<[0..9]>+/ | ||
| camelia | ｢23｣ | ||
| samcv | TEttinger, well because it matches the base character | ||
| which is a digit | |||
| Zoffix | You basically have to hack (at the moment, I hope in the future we get better interface for this) | 00:48 | |
| dpk | m: say ("1" + 1) | ||
| camelia | 2 | ||
| dpk | m: say ("①" + 1) | ||
| camelia | Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '3⏏5①' (indicated by ⏏) in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1 |
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| samcv | Zoffix, like something to say, nomark? | ||
| Zoffix | `No` can only be used as literals. Use unival() to convert them from string | ||
| samcv: yeah | |||
| dpk | m: say unival("①") | ||
| camelia | 1 | ||
| Zoffix | so, say, `\d` matches just the base characters without any stuff on them | ||
| m: say ① + 2 | 00:49 | ||
| camelia | 3 | ||
| dpk | m: say unival("Ⅻ") | ||
| camelia | 12 | ||
| Zoffix | m: say Ⅻ² | ||
| camelia | 144 | ||
| dpk | m: say unival("1\x[300]23") | ||
| camelia | 1 | ||
| dpk | that … seems like a potential security issue for some apps | 00:50 | |
| Zoffix | 6lang.party/post/Anguish--Invisibl...Data-Theft | ||
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| Zoffix | Oh the unival carying only about the first char... | 00:51 | |
| m: say unival("1\x[300]dasdsadsadsadsadasdsa") | |||
| camelia | 1 | ||
| Zoffix | Yeah. /me files | ||
| dpk | m: say ("h\x[300]" ~~ /<:M>/) | ||
| camelia | Nil | ||
| dpk | so the grapheme only has the properties of its base character, in other words | ||
| m: say ("\x[300]" ~~ /<:M>/) | |||
| camelia | ｢̀｣ | ||
| Zoffix | Filed as rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=132217 | 00:52 | |
| dpk | 'base character' not being particularly well defined, but i think all the cases of graphemes that aren't (U+xxxx + Mn) happen to have the same properties for all characters in the grapheme. probably. i think | 00:53 | |
| oh no, wait, ZWJ definitely doesn't have the properties of the characters it joins | |||
| Zoffix: thanks! | 00:54 | ||
| samcv | also Zoffix if someone can tell me how to add new options for regex that would be nice | 00:55 | |
| like on the nqp side | |||
| also not sure the code that messes up ignoremark for variables :( | 00:56 | ||
| Zoffix | m: say ~("1\x[300]23" ~~ /[ (\d+) <?{$0.tail.ord.chr eq $0.tail}> ]+/) | ||
| camelia | 23 | ||
| dpk | m: say "🇪🇺" ~~ /<:So>/ | ||
| camelia | ｢🇪🇺｣ | ||
| Zoffix | samcv: maybe moritz would know? | ||
| dpk | m: say "🇪\x[300]" ~~ /<:So>/ | ||
| camelia | ｢🇪̀｣ | ||
| samcv | lemme see if i have an rt | ||
| Zoffix | k, I turned off modules.perl6.org cron job while I update stuff.... mentioning in case I forget to turn it back on again, like last time. | 00:59 | |
| dpk | m: say "👨👨👦".codepoints | 01:00 | |
| camelia | No such method 'codepoints' for invocant of type 'Str' in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1 |
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| dpk | m: say "👨👨👦".codes | ||
| camelia | 5 | ||
| Zoffix | One benefit of CPAN storage is it's a hellalot faster to process than p6c dists | ||
| dpk | m: say "👨👨👦" ~~ /<:So>/ | ||
| camelia | ｢👨👨👦｣ | ||
| dpk | m: say "👨👨👦" ~~ /\x200D/ | 01:01 | |
| camelia | Nil | ||
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| dpk | is there any way to match a grapheme with a particular codepoint in it, then? | 01:01 | |
| samcv | hmm i can probably maake .codes faster. though idk if it's that important. i know i made it 2.5x faster by making a moarvm function for it. .codes used to be .NFC.elems | ||
| just thought of an optimization i can make | 01:02 | ||
| dpk | i assumed NFG meant .codes was O(1) | ||
| no wait, that's the other one | 01:03 | ||
| samcv | yes .codes is still O(1) | ||
| dpk | cannot think straight at 3am | ||
| samcv | but it no longer renormalizes it into an array and then gets the .elems | ||
| not sure if utf8-c8 synthetics should be counted as 1 or not with .codes. currently they are counted as many | 01:05 | ||
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| samcv | m: say Buf.new(20,20,1199).decode('utf8-c8').ords | 01:06 | |
| camelia | (20 20 1114109 120 65 70) | ||
| samcv | i'm inclined to keep .ords and .codes always returning the same numbers though | ||
| recently i fixed it if you read, made sure string operations wouldn't "flatten" utf8-c8 synthetics | |||
| m: say Buf.new(20,20,1199).decode('utf8-c8') | |||
| camelia | xAF | ||
| samcv | m: say Buf.new(20,20,1199).decode('utf8-c8').graphs | 01:07 | |
| camelia | No such method 'graphs' for invocant of type 'Str' in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1 |
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| samcv | m: say Buf.new(20,20,1199).decode('utf8-c8').Str.graphs | ||
| camelia | No such method 'graphs' for invocant of type 'Str' in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1 |
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| samcv | m: say Buf.new(20,20,1199).encode('utf8-c8').Str.graphs | ||
| camelia | No such method 'encode' for invocant of type 'Buf'. Did you mean 'decode'? in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1 |
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| samcv | m: say Buf.new(20,20,1199).decode('utf8-c8').^WHAT | ||
| camelia | 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp> Cannot use .^ on a non-identifier method call at <tmp>:1 ------> 3.new(20,20,1199).decode('utf8-c8').^WHAT7⏏5<EOL> expecting any of: method arguments |
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| samcv | weird | ||
| say Buf.new(20,20,1199).decode('utf8-c8').Str.graphs | 01:08 | ||
| No such method 'graphs' for invocant of type 'Str' | |||
| evalable6 | (exit code 1) No such method 'graphs' for invocant of type 'Str' in block <unit> at /tmp/3Kb6URnnbI line 1 |
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| samcv | that… shouldn't happen | ||
| Zoffix | m: say "".graphs | ||
| camelia | No such method 'graphs' for invocant of type 'Str' in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1 |
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| Zoffix | It's not a method tho? | ||
| samcv | oh | ||
| sorry i'm not thinking... | |||
| Zoffix | :) | ||
| samcv | i mean. at least thinking too hard on other bigger problems :p | 01:09 | |
| dpk | m: "\r\n\x[300]".chars | ||
| camelia | ( no output ) | ||
| dpk | m: say "\r\n\x[300]".chars | ||
| camelia | 2 | ||
| samcv | m: say Buf.new(20,20,1199).decode('utf8-c8').chars | ||
| camelia | 3 | ||
| samcv | m: say Buf.new(20,20,1199).decode('utf8-c8').codes | ||
| camelia | 6 | ||
| samcv | but you guys think it's probably good that .ords and .codes are in sync? less suprising i think | ||
| Zoffix shrugs | 01:10 | ||
| samcv | i would like utf8-c8 graphemes to count as 1 code. but. i mean | ||
| they're really bytes not codes | |||
| and it just counts the representation if you did want to write it out using the internal representation form. of <Plane 16 Private Use-10FFFD> + 'x' + hex | 01:11 | ||
| at least the docs tell you to count the bytes to use .Buf | |||
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| Geth | modules.perl6.org: zoffixznet++ created pull request #83: Cpan support |
01:48 | |
| modules.perl6.org/master: 26 commits pushed by (Zoffix Znet)++ review: github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org...e5f99b43af |
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| Geth | modules.perl6.org: 5dab433943 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | Build.PL Add AssetPack's `recommends` as deps |
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| Zoffix | ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬ *guitar solo* ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬ | 02:00 | |
| w00t: modules.perl6.org/dist/Number::Deno...pan:ZOFFIX | 02:01 | ||
| 50-100 github dists currently missing; got a lot of network errors during fresh rebuild; they'll come back on future runs | |||
| eco: from:cpan | |||
| buggable | Zoffix, Found 26 results: Acme::Anguish, Acme::Meow, App::Mi6, Backtrace::AsHTML, Bailador. See modules.perl6.org/s/from%3Acpan | ||
| Zoffix | \o/ /o/ \o\ |o| -o- \o\ | 02:02 | |
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| MasterDuke | cool beans | 02:06 | |
| Geth | modules.perl6.org: 2977144ae7 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | lib/ModulesPerl6/Controller/Root.pm Hide core dists on `from:` or `author:` searches Unless `from:` is from `core` |
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| hoffentlichja | is there a possibility that any breaking changes would occur in the future or is it all set and it's all about the implementation now? is it ok to write something more serious in perl6 without having to worry about it? | 02:09 | |
| I know perl6 was officially released 2015 and that there's perl6 specifications that are implemented by rakudo and moar, but I want to make sure I understand what that means and what its state is | 02:10 | ||
| Geth | modules.perl6.org: 0325ed4454 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 3 files Add search form to dist pages |
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| Zoffix | hoffentlichja: we try very hard not to add any changes that would break current 6.c-errata roast (spec) branch. Theoretically, no breaking changes would happen. Practically, there is a lot of behaviour that's undefined, so if you end up using it, it might break. Somewhere starting with next year, we'll release 6.d language and 6.c compiler will be somewhat (more) change-safe. So if you got `use v6.c` in your | 02:13 | |
| code, it'll continue using 6.c compiler. So basically, we don't plan to break anything, but sometimes it happens | |||
| And it'll start happening less and less as time moves on and more and more stuff is covered by the spec and more and more code is polished | 02:14 | ||
| hoffentlichja | Zoffix: that's understandable, but I was thinking in terms of the API | 02:15 | |
| Zoffix | I think it's stable and usable. | ||
| hoffentlichja | that's great to hear | 02:16 | |
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| Geth | modules.perl6.org: 3e92008bf7 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | lib/ModulesPerl6/DbBuilder.pm Move CPAN dists to be processed before p6c They're MUCH faster to process, so it makes sense to chug through them first. |
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| Zoffix | k, update is live; cron job is back in service. I backed up old db into ~/Oct-3-2017.modulesperl6.db.backup if needed. | 02:22 | |
| Zoffix goes to bed | |||
| \o | |||
| hoffentlichja | Zoffix: good night | ||
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| hoffentlichja | the morning is just arriving here | 02:23 | |
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| Xliff | Zoffix: Regarding your blog post on invisible chars, proper pre-commit hooks with sensible filtering would take care of that quite nicely. | 02:47 | |
| Well, FEH | |||
| .tell Zoffix Regarding your blog post on invisible chars, proper pre-commit hooks with sensible filtering would take care of that quite nicely. | |||
| yoleaux | Xliff: I'll pass your message to Zoffix. | ||
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| dpk | m: say "héllo" ~~ /hello/ | 03:00 | |
| camelia | Nil | ||
| dpk | m: say "héllo" ~~ /he<:M>llo/ | 03:01 | |
| camelia | Nil | ||
| hoffentlichja | is there any difference between .. and ... in ranges like 1..10 ? | 03:02 | |
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| MasterDuke | hoffentlichja: yes. ... will try to figure out sequences | 03:08 | |
| hoffentlichja | MasterDuke: what does that mean exactly? | 03:10 | |
| m: for (1,4...20) { .say } | 03:11 | ||
| camelia | 1 4 7 10 13 16 19 |
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| hoffentlichja | I see this doesn't work with .. | ||
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| MasterDuke | yeah. docs.perl6.org/language/operators#...e_operator has some more details | 03:13 | |
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| hoffentlichja | MasterDuke: ok thanks, I haven't gotten to that part yet | 03:14 | |
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| MasterDuke | the tldr is that .. creates a Range and ... creates a Seq. in the case of something simple like 1 .. 4 and 1 ... 4 they'll pretty much act the same, but for more complicated constructs they'll do different things | 03:18 | |
| hoffentlichja | I see | ||
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| redhands | tryperl6.org finally has an updated rakudo image but probably can't handle more than a handful of concurrent sessions *sad*, also could be cuter (like tryruby.org) | 03:48 | |
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| Todd | Hi All, I need some syntax help with the following: | 04:54 | |
| perl6 -e '( my $day, my $day-of-week ) = DateTime.now{.day, .day-of-week}; say "$day\n$day-of-week";' | |||
| What am I doing wrong? | 04:55 | ||
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| Todd | okay an easier one. how do I say either a - or a + in this at the beginning `if ( $x ~~ /^"-"/ ) {} | 05:35 | |
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| hoffentlichja | Todd: I think everybody is still asleep right now, the europeans will start being active soon :) | 05:38 | |
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| Todd | aw shucks! | 05:38 | |
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| Todd | I get "-7" and need to turn it into "-0700". -11 -> -1100, +5-> +0500. | 05:39 | |
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| Todd | bye bey | 05:46 | |
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| u-ou | why do I get 404 when I click IO::Socket::Async::SSL from modules.perl6.org? | 07:08 | |
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| Geth | ecosystem: Tyil++ created pull request #371: Add MPD::AutoQueue to META.list |
07:14 | |
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| eater | u-ou: it's postfixing author fields | 07:19 | |
| yoleaux | 30 Sep 2017 01:18Z <MasterDuke> eater: some comments about the IPv6 io::socket::async test irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6-dev/2017-...i_15237813 | ||
| eater | u-ou: and some people have email addresses in there (which is only sane) and it's breaking on that apperently | 07:21 | |
| u-ou | ok :) | ||
| DrForr | Wow. I could make a career out of correcting the English in Czech corporate training manuals. | 07:23 | |
| jast | if someone is willing to pay for those corrections, sure... :) | 07:25 | |
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| DrForr | Of course they're not, because the market isn't there. But good god, even Google does better... at least in some cases. | 07:30 | |
| eater | u-ou: github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/issues/84 | ||
| DrForr | "Click gradually on the blue frame with picture." for instance. | 07:32 | |
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| u-ou | eater: I see. | 07:37 | |
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| El_Che | DrForr: are you sure the market isn't there? | 07:40 | |
| DrForr: and don't click like a brute on the button | 07:41 | ||
| DrForr | Oh, I was *hammering* on that beast, nearly broke the switch twice :) | ||
| Geth | ecosystem: 0eb645c113 | (Patrick Spek)++ | META.list Add MPD::AutoQueue to META.list |
07:42 | |
| ecosystem: 1b60519357 | Altai-man++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | META.list Merge pull request #371 from Tyil/master Add MPD::AutoQueue to META.list |
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| alexk | m: class Foo { has $.bar }.^methods(:local) | 08:15 | |
| camelia | ( no output ) | ||
| alexk | m: say class Foo { has $.bar }.^methods(:local) | 08:16 | |
| camelia | (bar BUILDALL) | ||
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| lizmat | I was considering hiding 'BUILDALL' from .^methods, but it *is* introspection after all, and it *does* exist now | 08:19 | |
| perhaps we need another flag to ^methods | 08:20 | ||
| afk& | |||
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| AelxDnaiel | squashable6: next | 08:21 | |
| squashable6 | AelxDnaiel, ⚠🍕 Next SQUASHathon in 2 days and ≈1 hour (2017-10-07 UTC-12⌁UTC+14). See github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Mont...Squash-Day | ||
|
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| AelxDnaiel | where's the source code for tryperl6.org? | 08:28 | |
| just tried 5 ÷ 2 there and it didn't work… | |||
| 2 * π doesn't work… | |||
| 79²¹ too… failed all tasks on the second screen :) | 08:29 | ||
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| DrForr | Oof. | 08:32 | |
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| AelxDnaiel | OK I messaged the author | 08:56 | |
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| araraloren | evening | 09:15 | |
| u-ou | hey | ||
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| araraloren | o/ | 09:18 | |
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| u-ou | :) | 09:19 | |
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| scovit | Hello, do any of you can give me an hint on how best to recover from a broken promise? I mean I can handle the exception with CATCH, but then I would like to resume just after the await | 09:35 | |
| it is not super-important, but it feels like one of those cases where a goto would be the right thing to do | 09:36 | ||
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| scovit | I found the solution, introducing a bogus scope | 09:38 | |
| still feels like the goto is more elegant | 09:39 | ||
| jnthn | You can also try await ... | ||
| And then check $! | |||
| scovit | hi jnthn, what would $! contain? | ||
| jnthn | The exception object, if any was thrown | 09:40 | |
| If you want to ignore failures totally then you can just ignore it, of course :) | |||
| scovit | sorry but I am a bit slow: if anything is thrown, doesn't the program die? | 09:41 | |
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| scovit | m: await start { fail "" } | 09:43 | |
| camelia | An operation first awaited: in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1 Died with the exception: in block at <tmp> line 1 |
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| scovit | m: await start { fail "" }; say "hello:", $!; | ||
| camelia | An operation first awaited: in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1 Died with the exception: in block at <tmp> line 1 |
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| sproctor | Hey folks. So... at London PM last week I gave my 15 minute talk on Perl6 and reaons I think people should be thinking about using it in production. It seemed to go well and I'm going to be expanding on a bunch of it for the London Perl Workshop in November. | ||
| scovit | m: await start { fail X::AdHoc.new("ciao") }; CATCH { default { } }; say "hello:", $!; | 09:44 | |
| camelia | ( no output ) | ||
| scovit | m: { await start { fail X::AdHoc.new("ciao") }; CATCH { default { } };}; say "hello:", $!; | ||
| camelia | hello:An operation first awaited: in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1 Died with the exception: Default constructor for 'X::AdHoc' only takes named arguments in block at <tmp> line 1 |
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| scovit | is it possible to avoid the extra scope? | ||
| sproctor | I was planning in covering Unicode, Rats, Objects type and Roles and the threading stuff (and junctions... and loads of other bits I'll be sprinkling over the talk as I go along).... anyone got any thing you think I should mention? | 09:45 | |
| ilmari[m] | m: try await start { fail X::AdHoc.new("ciao") }; say "hello:", $!; | ||
| camelia | hello:An operation first awaited: in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1 Died with the exception: Default constructor for 'X::AdHoc' only takes named arguments in block at <tmp> line 1 |
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| scovit | Ah ok, "try". nice | 09:46 | |
| ilmari[m] | scovit: when jnthn said "try await" he literally meant that | 09:47 | |
| scovit | :D | ||
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| u-ou | which operator should I overload for "sameness" | 09:55 | |
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| u-ou | there are a few, like ==, ===, eq, eqv | 09:56 | |
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| sproctor | Surely sameness would be to get ~~ to work with your objects? | 09:58 | |
| u-ou | hmm. I think I need eqv. | ||
| ah | 09:59 | ||
| I think in this particular case it's eqv | 10:00 | ||
| which I wouldn't need to override | |||
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| Zoffix | , | 10:19 | |
| yoleaux | 02:47Z <Xliff> Zoffix: Regarding your blog post on invisible chars, proper pre-commit hooks with sensible filtering would take care of that quite nicely. | ||
| Zoffix | u-ou: make your own op :) But... eqv is generally for "sameness". The rest aren't really: eq is string equality, == is numeric equality, === is object identity, and ~~ is RHS-dependant matching. | 10:23 | |
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| u-ou | what does RHS stand for? | 10:26 | |
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| Zoffix | Right Hand Side | 10:27 | |
| u-ou | ah | ||
| Zoffix | The thing ont he right hand side of the ~~ op dictates how the match is performed | ||
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| u-ou | cool | 10:29 | |
| I'm going to sleep, nn! | |||
| Zoffix | \o | 10:30 | |
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| Geth | modules.perl6.org: 1f96bc6263 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | lib/ModulesPerl6/Controller/Dist.pm Fix crash when dist contains "README" file with no extension |
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| Geth | modules.perl6.org: dd269a29fb | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 2 files [REBUILD] Widen dist route placeholders Since now dist name includes author names that contain all sorts of things in them. Fixes #84 |
10:38 | |
| eater | Zoffix++ | 10:41 | |
| :D | |||
| Zoffix | Gonna eventually swap the "author" portion to "auth" that's made from sanitized "author" field if "auth" is missing | 10:42 | |
| Zoffix & | |||
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| moritz | my datacenter colleagues accidentally power-cycled the server on which hack, www and irc.p6c.org run | 11:34 | |
| dpk | m: say "Ü" ~~ /U<:M>/ | 11:35 | |
| camelia | Nil | ||
| dpk | is there any way to match a given character plus any diacritics? | 11:36 | |
| i.e. a regex that matches all of Ü, Ú, Ù, Û, etc | 11:37 | ||
| moritz | m: say 'Ü' ~~ /:ignoremark U/ | ||
| camelia | ｢Ü｣ | ||
| dpk | ahh | ||
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| dpk | thanks | 11:37 | |
| hoffentlichja | that's pretty nice | ||
| hahainternet | that is quite neat | 11:38 | |
| one thing i feel is missing from a lot of languages, because it's supremely hard to do | |||
| is homoglyphs | |||
| it's mostly down to the render stage, but it'd be nice if a similar mechanism could be used to unify say cyrillic and latin chars etc | 11:39 | ||
| i think i've probably mentioned before, but it's a rarely understood attack that can have absurdly serious consequences | |||
| timotimo | well, there's the compatibility normalizations | ||
| dpk | unicode has a database of confusable characters | ||
| unicode.org/cldr/utility/confusables.jsp | |||
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| hahainternet | ooh dpk i didn't know there was a canonical list | 11:40 | |
| i never have enough time to dig into this stuff :( | |||
| timotimo | oh, that's just 1 billion items | ||
| no problem, we'll just put them in with the rest of the unicode db ... | 11:41 | ||
| jast | we should all use an RFC 5242-based character encoding ;) | ||
| timotimo | let's just store all our text in SIXEL ansi escape sequences | ||
| jast | (tldr: encode the character shapes) | ||
| dpk | timotimo: no, that's 1 billion possible recursively-enumerated strings that are confusable with 'paypal' | ||
| hahainternet | yeah timotimo i think you're being a bit aggressive there | ||
| timotimo | haha :) | 11:42 | |
| hahainternet | this can actually be a serious issue | ||
| there have been many many sites i've used where it is trivial to impersonate "admin" or an individual user | |||
| timotimo | i'm not sure i get which exact piece you're refering to | ||
| hahainternet | and as soon as they're screenshotted or similar it is indistinguishable | ||
| timοtimο or timotimo .. which is you? | 11:43 | ||
| jast | yeah, this homoglyph stuff is nasty, and one reason I prefer restricting to ASCII in identifiers | ||
| timotimo | the one that doesn't have question marks instead of os | ||
| hahainternet | they both have os to me | ||
| timotimo | yeah, my terminal is b0rked | ||
| i'd have to restart weechat to fix it and i don't wanna :| | |||
| hahainternet | i.imgur.com/KU0lhfG.png | ||
| timotimo | it's getting more and more annoying though | ||
| hahainternet | so if i made say a forum post like this | ||
| or a tweet like this | |||
| etc etc | |||
| timotimo | or a website hostname/URL | 11:44 | |
| Zoffix | hm, modules.perl6.org is ded | ||
| hahainternet | there's some special handling there already | ||
| jast | let's all start substituting characters for look-alikes here in chat to help timotimo make the decision to restart ;) | ||
| hahainternet | firefox and chrome both show the full domain when there's potential confusables | ||
| afaik | |||
| Zoffix | if it was affected by the powercycle wonder why it didn't boot back up automagically | ||
| jast | I think they just always show the punycode in all IDN cases | 11:45 | |
| moritz | Zoffix: I think there's a cron job that starts it, but it tries to process all modules first | ||
| hahainternet | jast: i don't think that's true | ||
| Zoffix | Ohhhhh | ||
| ok, I'll fix it in about 15m | |||
| hahainternet | Since version 22 (2013), Firefox displays IDNs if either the TLD prevents homograph attacks by restricting which characters can be used in domain names or labels do not mix scripts for different languages. Otherwise IDNs are displayed in Punycode.[10][11] | ||
| Google Chrome uses an algorithm similar to the one used by Firefox since version 51. Previous versions display an IDN only if all of its characters belong to one (and only one) of the user's preferred languages.[17] | 11:46 | ||
| ok so i'm slightly inaccurate, but they do attempt to address this issue | |||
| dpk | timotimo: www.unicode.org/Public/security/8.0...sables.txt is the actual database (WARNING: file is quite large) | ||
| hahainternet | and imo i should be able to address it in perl6 with a single flag, function or what-have-you | ||
| timotimo | oh it's much smaller than i thought | ||
| why did the confusables page say that there's one billion items? | 11:47 | ||
| moritz | Zoffix: I've started modules.perl6.org now | ||
| dpk | 13:41:43 <dpk> timotimo: no, that's 1 billion possible recursively-enumerated strings that are confusable with 'paypal' | ||
| timotimo | oh, huh | ||
| Zoffix | sweet | ||
| dpk | put in a shorter string into the text box on that page and you'll see it lists them all | ||
| hahainternet | timotimo: check the page again, there's an input at the top | ||
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| jast | hahainternet: ah, it has changed since the last time I cared about this | 11:48 | |
| hahainternet | anyhow, perl6 should have an 'unconfuse' function or similar, soley because that name is excellent | ||
| timotimo | pe?????6 pe???????? pe?????? pe????6 pe??????? pe??l?? pe??l6 pe??l??? pe??1?? pe??16 pe??1??? pe?????? pe????6 pe??????? pe???????? pe??????6 pe????????? pe?????? pe????6 | ||
| does that come through as anything other than question marks? | 11:49 | ||
| hahainternet | nope just question marks i'm afraid | ||
| jast | yeah, there's a few ASCII characters in between ;) | ||
| hahainternet | something is real broken with you | ||
| timotimo | yeah | ||
| jast | anyway, I don't think unconfuse works as a function because what would that even do | ||
| hahainternet | normalise the characters to some consistent choice | ||
| but i agree it's not ideal | |||
| jast | except maybe delete all your source code | ||
| hahainternet | i just want something called 'unconfuse' :D | ||
| jast | here's an implementation: | 11:50 | |
| return '' | |||
| timotimo | but 1 and l are in the same language already | ||
| jast | yeah, those are tricky cases | 11:51 | |
| hahainternet | what's actually needed is the ability to compare two strings as to their confusability | ||
| jast | same for, say, i and its various accented variations | ||
| hahainternet | normalisation is doable, but dubious | ||
| jast | okay, but what would you compare the string to? | ||
| timotimo | so what does NFKC do for these things? | ||
| hahainternet | existing user accounts, for example | 11:52 | |
| jast | detecting confusable things is a human intelligence task | ||
| hahainternet | clearly not | ||
| jast | you don't want to compare your potential new username to all user accounts on file if you have millions of them | ||
| hahainternet | you already have to, that's what a unique constraint is | ||
| jast | no, a unique constraint can use an index | 11:53 | |
| hahainternet | as could any comparison like this? | ||
| jast | there are too many special considerations for this case for an index to be any help | ||
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| hahainternet | there's a list of characters per character | 11:53 | |
| that is itself an index | |||
| i don't agree jast | |||
| jast | not in the database sense | ||
| also a character-by-character approach isn't sufficient | |||
| hahainternet | why not? | ||
| timotimo | the confusables thing puts all characters into equivalence classes | 11:54 | |
| jast | e.g. you have to match "fl" vs" "fl ligature" | ||
| hahainternet | jast: you already have to | ||
| timotimo | you can just choose representatives for each group | ||
| if you do that consistently, you're basically done | |||
| jast | well, ligatures make that difficult | ||
| you might also have situations in which two characters ab look quite similar to character cde | |||
| dpk | m: say "fl" ~~ /:ignoremark fl/ | ||
| camelia | Nil | ||
| hahainternet | you adopt a consistent form in your database | ||
| my point is, these problems are extant | |||
| jast | there *is* no consistent form | 11:55 | |
| hahainternet | they are perhaps even common | ||
| jast | there is *if* you assume one character exactly corresponds to one character in the same class of confusable strings | ||
| but that's false | |||
| dpk | m: say "fl".NFKC ~~ /:ignoremark fl/ | ||
| camelia | ｢fl｣ | ||
| hahainternet | jast: i have no idea what you're saying now | ||
| there are consistent forms | |||
| and this is a problem all sites that have usernames already face | |||
| jast | visual similarity is not a property of characters by necessity, it can be a property of sequences of characters, too | ||
| hahainternet | they already search for duplicates in a database, and use the same strategies of early bailing out that all list searching does | 11:56 | |
| jast | or, to be more accurate, sequences of grapheme clusters | ||
| hahainternet | jast: that may be true, but you can't do anything about how the final rendering is done | ||
| jast | searching for duplicates on a collated index is straightforward, but I don't think confusability can be implemented as a collation | ||
| hahainternet | in the examples i gave, it doesn't require an obscure grapheme cluster match | ||
| so there may be parts of this that are intractable | 11:57 | ||
| but comparing two strings with the confusability rules certainly isn't, it may just be ugly and/or more CPU time | |||
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| hahainternet | i think in an ideal world this would be an option in postgresql, but i'd be happy with a perl6 trigger function ☺ | 11:58 | |
| jast | I think you're underestimating the cost | ||
| hahainternet | i've said nothing about the cost | ||
| jast | you literally just said "more CPU time" :) | 11:59 | |
| hahainternet | but how can that be an underestimate, as that's got no upper bound lol | ||
| jast | personally I think the I/O impact in particular would be massive | ||
| (or RAM, take your pick) | |||
| hahainternet | that's impossible to say at this juncture | ||
| and even if that's true | |||
| this should absolutely pale in comparison to the pkdbf for password hashing | |||
| which should take nearly a full second in an ideal world | 12:00 | ||
| so this whole argument is pretty academic | |||
| jast | PBKDF has entirely different scaling properties, it's constant in each login | ||
| something that has to scan all existing accounts, if an index-based solution is untenable (which I suspect it is), scales polynomially in the number of users | |||
| hahainternet | how would an index solution be 'untenable' | ||
| for every character, you have a list of characters | 12:01 | ||
| look each up in the index | |||
| even better, use an index that has these additional indexes adjacent | |||
| jast | well darn, I've got a meeting, I'll be back in two hours or so :/ | ||
| hahainternet | i'm at home sick ☹ | ||
| best of luck jast | |||
| and fwiw, this should not be polynomial or anything other than a straight up multiple | |||
| timotimo | finding a confusable should be decomposable into smaller parts | 12:02 | |
| hahainternet | if every character has 9 confusables, that's 10 index lookups instead of 1 in the worst case | ||
| jast | well, looks like the rest of the meeting hasn't assembled yet | 12:03 | |
| hahainternet | scheduled for 1pm? :) | ||
| jast | no, that's not how it works | ||
| timotimo | i still think the equivalence class approach should work, and work very fast | ||
| hahainternet | timotimo: i'm not sure i know what your approach is, but i dn't think there are any severe computing challenges here | 12:04 | |
| jast | suppose your username is five characters long, then the number of index lookups with that kind of implementing would be 5**10 | ||
| equivalence classes were my first thought, too | |||
| hahainternet | no it would be 50 | ||
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| hahainternet | not 5**10, 5*10 | 12:04 | |
| jast | how? | ||
| hahainternet | 5 characters, 10 lookups per character | ||
| jast | with a standard index you have to check each *combination* | ||
| hahainternet | 50 lookups | ||
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| hahainternet | jast: oh i see what you're saying | 12:05 | |
| yeah i'm wrong, in the worst case where each character HAS all 10 confusables in the database | |||
| by the end of the lookup it's scaled quite a lot | |||
| jast | so in this case that's about 9 million index lookups | ||
| hahainternet | but that's an absurdly niche case | ||
| timotimo | hahainternet: which means your users will attack you with it :) | ||
| hahainternet | timotimo: there are many more effective attacks | ||
| jast | well, just the letter "p" has way more confusable characters, as does "i" and "l" | 12:06 | |
| personally I think 10 is a low estimate | |||
| hahainternet | you'd have to full the database to an absurd degree just to have this attack be feasible | ||
| timotimo | anyway, if you immediately store a version of the user name with the confusables reduced to their representatives | ||
| jast | you don't, because you have to do all of the index lookups anyway | ||
| timotimo | then you can just do a single index lookup | ||
| jast | which is why this this about equivalence classes came up | ||
| hahainternet | jast: you bail out of any that don't match | ||
| jast | meeting now | ||
| hahainternet | timotimo: i agree but jast said that's impossible | ||
| jast | that's not the way it works | ||
| you have to check them all to find out whether they match | |||
| I'll be back :) | 12:07 | ||
| hahainternet | this is all rather academic anyway | ||
| because this is a real problem | |||
| it really exists | |||
| timotimo | i'm not sure why that wouldn't work | ||
| hahainternet | so debates about the complexity class of solutions | ||
|
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| hahainternet | it needs fixing regardless, and p6 is not a database | 12:07 | |
| so just supporting it in comparisons would be enough | |||
| and then people can implement solutions as they see fit | |||
|
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| hahainternet | timotimo: i assume you're talking about picking a canonical representation from each group of confusables and storing using that representation, so you can normalise any input to using those representations and do a quicker index lookup? | 12:08 | |
| timotimo | yeah | 12:09 | |
| hahainternet | the only problem there would be groups intersecting, but they are by definition confusable in that case too | ||
| so i don't see that this would actually be an issue | |||
|
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| hahainternet | (ie l -> | and i -> l) | 12:09 | |
| i wonder how good postgresql's unicode support is | 12:10 | ||
| would be neat to have an unconfusable_text type | |||
| timotimo | oh, you can just do the equivalence class thing as a first step to throw out all the ones that are definitely different | 12:13 | |
| like alice, bob, b0b, b06 - you'd be able to ignore alice immediately | 12:14 | ||
| hahainternet | yeah it's a normal technique isn't it, to bail out as early as possible in comparisons | 12:15 | |
| anyhow i would like to vote that some sort of confusability comparison is implemented, and i think your idea of reducing to a canonical representation is good | 12:16 | ||
| not sure if there's any way i can help | |||
| timotimo | i'd say this belongs into module space | 12:17 | |
| hahainternet | well it's an official unicode thing | ||
| and it's rather vital | |||
| but i don't know what qualifies in p6 for modules/core/etc | |||
| Zoffix | Everything is best first trialed as a module. | 12:18 | |
| hahainternet | well i am just saying i think it's an important feature, but i have no idea what category that'd be :D | 12:19 | |
| Zoffix | We get someone wanting something "rather vital" in core every week, but they're often the only ones who think it's "vital" and yet often can't be bothered to even implement a module for it | ||
| Not important at all for me. | |||
| Importants often depends on what type of programs you write. | |||
| hahainternet | it's rather important for anyone who deals with presentable user input in any form | ||
| it's not like this is a niche obscure feature | |||
| it's just something that most people don't want to deal with, so they ignore | |||
| i very rarely write websites and the like, so i don't think it'd be that amazingly useful for me directly | 12:20 | ||
| Zoffix | Just because we add extra maintenance burden to already overburdened core devs won't make people ignore it less :) | ||
| hahainternet shrugs, that's not really a great argument | |||
| people are indeed busy | |||
| Zoffix | The argument is it won't make people ignore it less, not that someone is busy | ||
| hahainternet | having an actual implementable solution to a problem does indeed make people ignore it less | 12:21 | |
| honestly Zoffix i don't know what you're arguing here | |||
| Zoffix | I'm responding to "well it's an official unicode thing and it's rather vital" that was given as response to "i'd say this belongs into module space" | 12:22 | |
| hahainternet | ah, you are ignoring my third line, which adds vital context | ||
|
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| Cokebot | any other users of irc.p6c.org ? | 12:25 | |
| (the reboot seems to have hosted my perlbrew, and also hosed re-installing perlbrew) | |||
|
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| moritz | Cokebot: can I help you? | 12:26 | |
| Cokebot | Trying to install perlbrew as me, I get (one sec) | 12:27 | |
| ah, actually, simpler: run this: perl -MConfig -e1; | 12:29 | ||
| system perl is fubar'd. | |||
| Geth | modules.perl6.org: 132cbf88d6 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | lib/ModulesPerl6/Controller/Dist.pm Scrub `javascript:` URLs from <img> and <a>'s |
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| moritz | perlpunks.de/paste/show/59d4d528.5f24.270 | 12:33 | |
| Geth | modules.perl6.org: ad4d8191b1 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | lib/ModulesPerl6/Controller/Dist.pm Fix typo in JS URL scrubber |
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| pmurias | hahainternet: I would guess comparing if strings look similiar to each others is something that should be in a module rather then in Perl 6 itself | 12:35 | |
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| hahainternet | pmurias: i'm not particularly opposed, i don't know what the standards are for putting things in a module | 12:36 | |
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| hahainternet | my only contention was that it's an important feature people are happy to ignore, so it'd be nice to make it accessible and it would fix a lot of obscure issues | 12:36 | |
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| Geth | modules.perl6.org: 2dd813e512 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | lib/ModulesPerl6/Controller/Dist.pm Rewrite id=""s of title elemenents in rendered READMEs To follow more closely the way GitHub does it, so in-document links that work on GitHub work here too |
12:37 | |
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| moritz | where is Cokebot when you want to tell them the packages are fixed? | 12:42 | |
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| Zoffix | hm... The HTML scrubber on modules.perl6.org scrubs what would normally be a safely encoded codeblock. Most of the docs are missing: modules.perl6.org/dist/Acme::Anguish:cpan:ZOFFIX | 12:47 | |
|
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| Zoffix | Because one of the code lines has an opening `<` in it | 12:47 | |
| timotimo | i, too, have pairs of < > in my json::fast readme | ||
| that get thrown out completely | |||
|
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| Geth | modules.perl6.org: b078a9e887 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 2 files Remove too-agressive HTML scrubber irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2017-10-04#i_15255589 |
12:55 | |
| modules.perl6.org: b68e6305aa | (Zoffix Znet)++ | lib/ModulesPerl6/Controller/Dist.pm Cleanup debug code |
12:56 | ||
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| Zoffix | Added ~/start-modules.perl6.org-web-app script that just powers on the web app (without updating db) and replaced the old @reboot cronbjob with this one, so next time we reboot, teh site goes back on right away | 12:59 | |
|
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| pmurias | hahainternet: modules are supposed to be easily accessible | 13:13 | |
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| timotimo | www.reddit.com/r/perl/comments/743...ugh_loops/ - can't help but think "this would be ridiculously easy to achieve in perl6" | 13:15 | |
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| pmurias | hahainternet: and modules are much better for stuff that we aren't 100% sure how it should work (confusability also depends on the fonts etc.) | 13:22 | |
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| Geth | modules.perl6.org: 6da85e52bc | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 6 files Add larger icons indicating dist source |
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| timotimo | here's a post about "kotlin's greatest feature" which is "lambda with receiver", basically what you get when you $object.&mysub and giving mysub an invocant and using "self" | 13:31 | |
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| Geth | modules.perl6.org: 4ee8a7d4b2 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 2 files Make info bar titles be shown with tooltip plugin CSS selectors rewritten because the inserted tooltip makes them no longer select the right stuff, causing element wobbling when tooltips are shown |
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| HoboWithAShotgun | is there something like c# partial keyword in p6? so that i can spread code of the same class across several files? | 13:39 | |
| if not,should I use roles for that? | 13:40 | ||
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| timotimo | roles sounds like a good idea, yeah | 13:43 | |
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| dpk | rip yoleaux | 14:02 | |
| dpk attempts fix | |||
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| Geth | modules.perl6.org: a13c7f81c8 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 3 files Shave off 431b per dist in search results |
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| Zoffix | well, that was a waste of time.... | 14:11 | |
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| Geth | modules.perl6.org: 6493171f53 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 3 files Revert "Shave off 431b per dist in search results" This reverts commit a13c7f81c886d171a19dd7381a85103dd7c265d3. Reduces full-ecosystem display page by ~400KB, but overall rendering quality is about the same on first load and much worse on cached load. |
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| atta | load scripts/trackbar | 14:31 | |
| ops. sorry | |||
| tyil | allahu trackbar? | ||
| yoleaux | 08:07Z <lizmat> tyil: the ghostbin seems to be out of order, so I have no idea what you mean :-( | ||
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| El_Che | trackbar, best irssi plugin ever | 14:36 | |
| atta | El_Che: that's the one I was trying to load :) | 14:40 | |
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| mayuresh | hello. :) | 15:14 | |
| in case any of you remember me, i want you to know that i tried my level | 15:15 | ||
| best to get going with building that perl6 interpreter (standalone). | |||
| failed, big time, now am tired, and am moving back to common-lisp. | |||
| apologies to anyone who's expectations were heightened. | 15:16 | ||
| hoffentlichja | mayuresh: what are you talking about? | ||
|
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| timotimo | oh wait, dpk, you're yoleaux's owner? | 15:16 | |
| dpk | yes | ||
| mayuresh | hffentlichja; i was working on "pxn" | 15:17 | |
| couldn't understand 'mop' all that well. | |||
| utimately, fell in love with 'cl', again. | |||
| moving back to it. | |||
| i meant hoffentlichja* | 15:18 | ||
| hoffentlichja | ok, well I'm sorry to hear that | ||
| mayuresh | yeah | ||
| hoffentlichja | mayuresh: did you try clojure? :) | ||
| mayuresh | no, i hate those non-java languages running on the 'jvm'. ;) | ||
| i liked java, for a long time, and then i encountered the foundation libs | 15:19 | ||
| of objc | |||
| hoffentlichja | yes, it's a disadvantage but it also has its advantages | ||
| clojure itself as a language is great, my opinion | |||
| mayuresh | and then i realized that the java libs are a major mess | ||
| timotimo | i was going to ask you if we can have yoleaux in the moarvm channel but it seems like it's already there | ||
| mayuresh | true, i have heard a lot of good things about clojure | ||
| but, i really like straight and simple common-lisp. :) | 15:20 | ||
| along with the 'clos', i must say. :) | |||
| hoffentlichja | I understand, many common lipsers feel that way | ||
| lispers* | |||
| racket is also nice, but a common lisp lover would probably not like it either | |||
| :) | |||
| mayuresh | :D | 15:21 | |
| actually, if you can, check out "zenlisp" at www.t3x.org/ | |||
| it's in the "attic" section | |||
|
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| mayuresh | alrighty, i gotta go | 15:21 | |
| i have a whole lot of sleeping to do | |||
| after not having slept a while | |||
| hoffentlichja | alright | 15:22 | |
| mayuresh | been unable to decide | ||
| finally did | |||
| and now am very relaxed | |||
| gotta get sleep | |||
| hoffentlichja | you haven't said anything about your opinion of perl6 :) | ||
| mayuresh | mr. wall sorry, hope you understand, a librans plight as being one yourself. | ||
| perl6 was so interesting to me that i actually learnt c89 to build the interpreter | |||
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| mayuresh | but failed to understand 'mop' all that well. | 15:23 | |
| from the perspective of attempting an implementation for p6 | |||
| hoffentlichja | I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that, my logical brain tells me you were trying to implement the perl6 specifications but I doubt that's what you meant | ||
| mayuresh | i meant, i was implementing a standalone perl6 execution environment. | ||
| no compiling and then executing buisiness. ;) | 15:24 | ||
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| moritz | mayuresh: Perl 6 stole many MOP ideas from common lisp :-) | 15:24 | |
| mayuresh | i called it the 'pxn' for "perl6 execution environment". :) | ||
| moritz, i knew, that's why i was so interested. | |||
| but i just simply couldn't figure out how to implement 'mop' using c89 | |||
| + p6 code | 15:25 | ||
| luckily, i wrote very little code. | |||
| timotimo | rakudo implements mop in C and some p6 cod e:) | ||
| mayuresh | :) | ||
| so it's a good thing. :) | |||
| hoffentlichja | mayuresh: so why does that stop you from using perl6 with its current rakudo implementation? | ||
| mayuresh | i wanted to learn. :) | 15:26 | |
| hoffentlichja | you still can | ||
| mayuresh | how to implement the interpreter | ||
| hoffentlichja | maybe it takes some time | ||
| mayuresh | i have been trying for almost 4 years. | ||
| though was very unwell for 2 years in between. :( | |||
| alrighty, i really gotta go now, sleep needed. | 15:27 | ||
| hoffentlichja | alright, good night | ||
| mayuresh | thanks for the fantastic community support. | ||
| have a good time ahead. :) | |||
|
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| hoffentlichja | I've been meaning to implement my own lispy language for a while but haven't had the right mood to start it | 15:31 | |
| mspo | check out LFE | 15:32 | |
| hoffentlichja | Lisp Flavoured Erlang? | ||
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| hoffentlichja | I'm looking for something VM-free | 15:33 | |
| moritz | everything has a VM at some level | 15:34 | |
| or some sort of supporting libraries linked in | |||
| the boundaries are fluid, really | 15:35 | ||
| hoffentlichja | moritz: yes, by that I meant JVM / ErlangVM and the likes free | ||
| moritz: It would be ideal to be a compiled language | |||
| but I see no great path for what I would like it to be used for and how | 15:36 | ||
| jnthn | Most things are eventually compiled languages today :) | ||
| hoffentlichja | so my only option seems is to implement it in go, either write an interpreter or a compiler-to-go | ||
| jnthn: I know, by compiled I meant ahead of time, to binary | 15:37 | ||
| moritz | go also comes with a GC | 15:39 | |
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| moritz | it's just statically linked into the resulting binary | 15:39 | |
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| hoffentlichja | moritz: I know, the GC isn't an issue in this case | 15:40 | |
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| buggable | New CPAN upload: Foo-Bar-Perl6-0.10.tar.gz by TBROWDER www.cpan.org/authors/id/T/TB/TBROW....10.tar.gz | 15:45 | |
| New CPAN upload: Foo-Bar-Perl6-0.10.zip by TBROWDER www.cpan.org/authors/id/T/TB/TBROW...6-0.10.zip | |||
| New CPAN upload: Foo-Bar-Perl6-1.2.3.tar.gz by TBROWDER www.cpan.org/authors/id/T/TB/TBROW...2.3.tar.gz | |||
| New CPAN upload: Foo-Bar-Perl6-1.2.3.zip by TBROWDER www.cpan.org/authors/id/T/TB/TBROW...-1.2.3.zip | |||
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| AlexDaniel | grrrrrr… Everything looks fine but there's no sound | 16:17 | |
| is it you, PulseAudio? | |||
| AlexDaniel reboots | 16:18 | ||
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| AlexDaniel | whenever I have to reboot I feel like killing somebody 😠 | 16:21 | |
| works now… | 16:22 | ||
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| deaninous | I also have a no audio and no bluetooth problem | 16:39 | |
| Have not been able to figure it out | |||
| I get audio on a non root account but not on root. | 16:40 | ||
| bluetooth just is not there | |||
| any suggestion? my google fu has failed me so far | |||
| ilmari | why would you want audio as root? | ||
| deaninous | makes sense. | 16:41 | |
| HoboWithAShotgun | can i have a subset of two types? so a value can say either Str or Int but nothing else | ||
| deaninous | but blueblooth is my main issue | ||
| {*bluetooth | 16:42 | ||
| nothing scarier than a hobo with a shotgun requiring only str/int :) | 16:43 | ||
| jnthn | HoboWithAShotgun: subset StrOrInt where Str|Int | 16:45 | |
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| jnthn | home time & | 16:47 | |
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| Zoffix | m: role Foo { ... }; role Foo is repr("VMArray") is array_type(int) {}; Foo.new | 17:28 | |
| camelia | P6opaque: missing attribute protocol in compose of Foo in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1 |
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| Zoffix | Is there some trick for the stub to not duplicate all of the `is blah` things? | ||
| m: role Foo [::T = uint8] does Positional[T] does Stringy is repr('VMArray') is array_type(T) { ... }; role Foo {}; Foo.new | 17:30 | ||
| camelia | ( no output ) | ||
| Zoffix takes that for a spin | 17:31 | ||
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| Zoffix | It don't like it :( | 17:33 | |
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| Zoffix | brrr freaking house of cards | 17:37 | |
| AlexDaniel | squashable6: status | 17:38 | |
| squashable6 | AlexDaniel, ⚠🍕 Next SQUASHathon in 1 day and ≈16 hours (2017-10-07 UTC-12⌁UTC+14). See github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Mont...Squash-Day | ||
|
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| tyil | anyone who has any idea how to start troubleshooting travis-ci.org/moznion/p6-HTML-Esca...283247515? `zef test .` seems to fail | 17:59 | |
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| Xliff | Zoffix: Are you talking about 'also'? | 17:59 | |
| m: role Foo [::T = uint8] { also does Positional[t]; also does Stringy; also is array_type(int); }; Foo.new; | 18:00 | ||
| camelia | 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp> Undeclared routine: t used at line 1 |
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| Xliff | m: role Foo [::T = uint8] { also does Positional[T]; also does Stringy; also is array_type(int); }; Foo.new; | ||
| camelia | P6opaque: missing attribute protocol in compose of Foo in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1 |
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| Xliff | m: role Foo [::T = uint8] { also does Positional[T]; also does Stringy; also is array_type(T); }; Foo.new; | 18:01 | |
| camelia | P6opaque: missing attribute protocol in compose of Foo in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1 |
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| Xliff | Hrm. | ||
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| Zoffix | tyil: try to see if there's a way to make zef show verbose TAP output; set it and run the travis job again so it shows what's actually wrong | 18:07 | |
| tests don't fail for me on Debian on that rakudo commit | |||
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| tyil | Zoffix: it fails locally as well for me with the same error, should I just add the --verbose to zef? | 18:30 | |
| Zoffix | tyil: try. I don't think that's the switch tho. A while back, there wasn't any switch, maybe now there is. Does it fail with `prove -e 'perl6 -Ilib' -vlr t` ? | 18:31 | |
| If yes, what's the error? | |||
| tyil | No plan in TAP output | 18:32 | |
| I think I'm missing a plan | |||
| Zoffix | That usually means it crashed during compilation. There should be verbose output with errors... | 18:33 | |
| tyil | adding `plan`s to all test files makes zef and prove happy | ||
| the "verbose" error was | 18:34 | ||
| t/01-basic.t (Wstat: 256 Tests: 0 Failed: 0) | |||
| Non-zero exit status: 1 | |||
| Parse errors: No plan found in TAP output | |||
| Zoffix | But there's stuff before that output innit? | ||
| tyil | lemme paste the full output | 18:35 | |
| the stuff before it is standard test output | |||
| Zoffix | It should work fine without any plan; you have `done-testing` at the end | ||
| tyil | cry.nu/p/yluy | ||
| done-testing is only on 1 test file | |||
| I added two new ones without done-testing and without plans | |||
| Zoffix | huh... tyil those aren't the tests in the repo? github.com/moznion/p6-HTML-Escape/tree/master/t | 18:36 | |
| Zoffix is confused | |||
| tyil | oh, you're looking at master, not the PR I made | 18:37 | |
| Zoffix | ah, it's a PR | ||
| tyil | yes, I added a sub to his library, because it seemed easy to implement and I could make use of it | ||
| was easier to extend his lib than make my own | |||
| Zoffix | OK, now it makes sense :) Yes, those tests were missing a `plan` (or a `done-testing` at the end) | 18:38 | |
| tyil | indeed, I added plans and zef was happy | ||
| pushed it onto the PR, so now I just wait for travis to be happy | |||
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| [Coke] waves. | 19:06 | ||
| moritz: finally able to try again, thanks, back in | 19:07 | ||
| tyil | Zoffix: travis is ok with it too now, thanks for the assistance! | 19:08 | |
| Zoffix | \o/ | ||
| tyil | .hug Zoffix | ||
| huggable hugs Zoffix | |||
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| AlexDaniel | awww somebody just kicked my ass in code golf | 19:18 | |
| [Coke] | moritz: wish I had realized the core problem before killing my perlbrew install. :) | 19:19 | |
| tyil | you mean "neat, someone just taught me some neat golfing tricks", AlexDaniel | ||
| AlexDaniel | tyil: I don't see the solution, so had to figure it out on my own… but pretty much, yes | ||
| ( code-golf.io/ ) | 19:20 | ||
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| perlpilot | AlexDaniel: on which problem? | 19:29 | |
| AlexDaniel | perlpilot: prime numbers | ||
| Zoffix | All the golfers should go down our RT tickets and see who produces the golfiest example for a bug :) | 19:31 | |
| AlexDaniel | no! We'd much rather have more bugs so that we have more room for golfing! | 19:32 | |
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| perlpilot | I suck at golf ... I picked fibonacci thinking it would be easyish and I got 27 chars. Not seeing how you got down to 18. I mean just my fibo sequence without any output is 19 chars. | 19:34 | |
| Zoffix | Tag tickets with golf. Make a golfing site. People submit soltions. The person with the shortest golf gets $x of money when the ticket gets resolved :) | ||
| teatime | important question: is $x an Int or a Num | 19:35 | |
| perlpilot | Zoffix: and most of the proceeds go towards P6 grants :) | ||
| teatime: was there some preamble I missed? Something with more information about $x? | |||
| Zoffix | teatime: Num :) | 19:36 | |
| teatime | I was just wondering if we were talking dollars or cents :) | ||
| Zoffix | 50cents a pop | ||
| teatime | inb4 someone says "you should use a Rat for money" | ||
| Zoffix | But mostly it's for fame | ||
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| tyil | teatime: you should use a Rat for money | 19:52 | |
| AlexDaniel | .oO(or maybe FatRat?) |
19:56 | |
| teatime | t4.ftcdn.net/jpg/00/02/72/87/500_F...Gnt9OH.jpg | 19:57 | |
| tyil | lol | ||
| teatime | AlexDaniel: I was gonna make that joke and use this image instead previews.123rf.com/images/rudall30...Vector.jpg | 19:58 | |
| AlexDaniel | somewhere deep inside I hate Rat | 19:59 | |
| for its tendency to turn into a FatRat without my explicit approval | |||
| oops | |||
| to turn into Num* | |||
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| Zoffix | AlexDaniel: when does it do that? | 20:07 | |
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| AlexDaniel | m: my Rat $x = 1/3; $x *= $x for ^6 | 20:11 | |
| camelia | Type check failed in assignment to $x; expected Rat but got Num (2.91232405875626e-31) in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1 |
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| AlexDaniel | when denominator does not fit in int64 or something like that, I don't remember | ||
| Zoffix | ah | 20:12 | |
| AlexDaniel | so maybe it does not really matter for money, but I am not checking what values I have in denominators in all intermediate calculations… | ||
| and if you try to calculate π or 𝑒 beyond values provided in constants this jumps right at you | 20:14 | ||
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| AlexDaniel | good thing is that FatRats are viral so you only have to introduce one FatRat somewhere and off you go | 20:14 | |
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| AlexDaniel | Zoffix: I have a trick! | 20:19 | |
| don't know if it's a bug or not, but look | |||
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| AlexDaniel | m: my $x = 3.14159265358979323846; say $x.WHAT | 20:19 | |
| camelia | (Rat) | ||
| AlexDaniel | m: my $x = 3.14159265358979323846; say ($x*1).WHAT | ||
| camelia | (Num) | ||
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| rindolf | Hi all! zef test --all . gives me this - www.shlomifish.org/Files/files/text...output.txt - any way to make it more sane? | 20:20 | |
| AlexDaniel | rindolf: this does not answer your question, but zef --help looks better | 20:21 | |
| rindolf | AlexDaniel: thanks | 20:24 | |
| Zoffix | rindolf: yes, stop using rakudobrew | 20:27 | |
| huggable: sauce | 20:28 | ||
| huggable | Zoffix, Install untested latest development version of Rakudo from source: github.com/zoffixznet/r#table-of-contents | ||
| Zoffix | rindolf: or submit a patch to it :) | ||
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| Zoffix | AlexDaniel: yeah, it's a bug. Currently slated to create a RatStr | 20:29 | |
| insteqd of a Rat with messed up nu/de | 20:30 | ||
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| Zoffix | I mean I'm working on it, but I'm taking a scenic route that takes care of uint bugs and swaps Rat to uint denums and probably adds a new nqp op | 20:32 | |
| Also need to learn C first :} | |||
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| AlexDaniel | I cannot come up with a realistic “simple” operation that would turn a Rat into a Num | 20:35 | |
| this is all I have: | 20:36 | ||
| m: my $USA_yearly = 3_850_000_000_000.00; my $hobo_yearly = 0.01; say ($hobo_yearly/$USA_yearly).nude | |||
| camelia | (1 385000000000000) | ||
| AlexDaniel | you have to divide it by 100000 to turn it into a Nu | ||
| m | |||
| so it's close but not close enough | 20:37 | ||
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| rindolf | Zoffix: hi | 20:53 | |
| Zoffix: a patch to what? | |||
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| Zoffix | rindolf: to rakudobrew. The issue you're seeing is due to a deficiency in rakudobrew, and nothing to do with rakudo compiler. The best I know it: rakudobrew creates wrappers scripts because it was made before the time when modules could be used by different versions of rakudo or something. | 20:58 | |
| rindolf: so you'd need to either patch it, or to not use it. Unless you're running multiple versions of rakudo at the same time, you don't need it | 20:59 | ||
| [Coke] | rindolf: github.com/ugexe/zef/issues/121 | ||
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| Zoffix | rindolf: also this: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/1155 | 21:01 | |
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| tyil | Zoffix: I found the line that makes the "sh: 1: /home/tyil/projects/rakudo/install/bin/nqp-m: not found" show, I added a simple check to see if the file exists before trying to open it | 21:19 | |
| should I add a print with a nicer message? | |||
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| Zoffix | Yeah | 21:32 | |
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| tyil | "No pre-existing configuration file found at <path>" | 21:33 | |
| something like that? | |||
| Zoffix | It's looking for nqp though, not configuration does it? | 21:34 | |
| There's #perl6-dev where more people might help out with this | |||
| Zoffix goes for a night of relaxation | |||
| Zoffix & | |||
| tyil | will check | ||
| thanks | 21:35 | ||
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| HoboWithAShotgun | shouldn't that be a compile time error? : sub foo returns Int { return "a"; }; | 22:12 | |
| m: sub foo returns Int { return "a"; }; | |||
| camelia | ( no output ) | ||
| mst | m: sub foo returns Int { return "a"; }; foo() | 22:13 | |
| camelia | Type check failed for return value; expected Int but got Str ("a") in sub foo at <tmp> line 1 in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1 |
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| mst | (just verifying the obvious) | ||
| HoboWithAShotgun | what the fadpimiping ride did they think when they made every entry in an enum it's own symbol? talk about scope pollution | 22:20 | |
| is there something else that behaves like a regular enum? one you can use as a type and access like "screen-mode.minimized" | 22:22 | ||
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| timotimo | you can just TheEnum::TheValue | 22:29 | |
| HoboWithAShotgun | ok. but once i import the enum from somewhere it pollutes my namespace with all its symbols, doesnt it? | 22:37 | |
| s/namespace/scope/ | |||
| timotimo | hm, not actually sure about that | 22:38 | |
| it might only do that if you mark it "is export" | |||
| whereas with "our" you'll get access to it via the name of the module you import | 22:39 | ||
| i'm a bit fuzzy about these details | |||
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| mudman | release: status | 23:04 | |
| releasable6 | mudman, Next release in 16 days and ≈19 hours. No blockers. Changelog for this release was not started yet | ||
| mudman, Details: gist.github.com/9f8db5783ceb3ee6b1...f5124f0f64 | |||
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| HoboWithAShotgun | meh, that's the second time i look for a bug caused by %hash<$somekey> | 23:33 | |
| timotimo | maybe better to get used to always using {' '} | ||
| for me, syntax highlighting makes it visible enough | |||
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| HoboWithAShotgun | i'm way past the point of recognizing color :D | 23:43 | |
| i should probably hit the sack | |||
| perlawhirl | bisectable6: old=2017.09 use experimental :collation; $*COLLATION.set(:quaternary(False), :tertiary(False)); say 'a' coll 'A'; | ||
| bisectable6 | perlawhirl, On both starting points (old=2017.09 new=cef3bf3) the exit code is 0 and the output is identical as well | ||
| perlawhirl, Output on both points: «More» | |||
| perlawhirl | bisectable6: old=2017.08 use experimental :collation; $*COLLATION.set(:quaternary(False), :tertiary(False)); say 'a' coll 'A'; | 23:44 | |
| bisectable6 | perlawhirl, Bisecting by output (old=2017.08 new=cef3bf3) because on both starting points the exit code is 0 | ||
| perlawhirl, bisect log: gist.github.com/e94d3622e83b5cdd23...143e443bcd | |||
| perlawhirl, (2017-09-10) github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9b...88e2eb331f | |||
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