»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz on 22 December 2015.
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DrForr Proposals in, bedtime. 00:00
Just the two this time - I figure that the short-form stuff doesn't work for me anyway because I need to justify the overseas flight, and a simple 40min talk isn't quite enough. 00:01
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comborico1611 ilmari: It worked! 'html-mode didn't but 'html-mode-hook did. 00:04
Thank you!
ilmari comborico1611: yes, I mistyped 00:05
every mode has a corresponding hook
comborico1611 I was just reading about hooks, but I thought it was more for when you turn a mode on manually. 00:06
I wasn't quite sure if hooks was my answer. So I moved on after some reading.
It's weird. Electric-indent-mode is still on, but it doesn't function. Is that normal? 00:07
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Geth whateverable: 31e20295c6 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | bin/Quotable.p6
Don't attempt to format non-messages

Currently it bails out with a single Str if nothing was found for a channel. There is probably a better way to do it, but for now this is an improvement (no more Nil complaints).		 01:50
whateverable: 81b91def9e | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | t/quotable.t
Fix Quotable tests

According to all of the recent changes.
whateverable: 19661e629d | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | t/coverable.t
Fix Coverable tests

The source line in rakudo simply changed.		 01:59
whateverable: 90e408579a | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | t/greppable.t
Fix Greppable test

It simply needs a bit more time now. Not sure why though.
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Geth whateverable: 1fc6ce832f | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | bin/Coverable.p6
Fix Coverable

It was attempting to write to a file in CWD, which does not work so well when the filesystem is not writeable.		 02:09
AlexDaniel squashable6: next
squashable6 AlexDaniel, ⚠🍕 Next SQUASHathon in 2 days and ≈7 hours (2018-02-03 UTC-12⌁UTC+14). See github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Mont...Squash-Day
comborico1611 I learned how GitHub works today. 02:12
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comborico1611 Goodnight! 02:16
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Geth whateverable: 559768852d | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | bin/Nativecallable.p6
Half-fix Nativecallable

Still won't chooch properly. See issue #281		 02:23
whateverable: 8950c8f8fb | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | services/whateverable@.service
Point stdout and stderr somewhere

Otherwise things freak out.
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Eddward Is there a perldoc~ish thing for perl6? 03:09
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geekosaur p6doc 03:09
Eddward great! Thanks!
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lucs m: sub f (*@a) { say $_[0] for @a }; f([1, 2], [3, 4]); # Hoping to get 1,3. How? 04:35
camelia 1
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Xliff m: sub f (+@a) { say $_[0] for @a }; f([1, 2], [3, 4]); 04:37
camelia 1
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Xliff lucs: ^^
lucs Hmm... Never saw that +@a syntax. Back to the docs :) 04:38
Thanks
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ZzZombo Am I right that Perl 6 doesn't actually care whether something is `Callable`, and only looks at whether something `can("CALL-ME")`? 04:41
m: (1 but role {method CALL-ME{'called'.say}})()
camelia called
ZzZombo m: say 1 ~~ Callable 04:42
camelia False
lucs finds docs.perl6.org/language/functions#...onventions and is happy.
geekosaur ZzZombo, largely you are correct. I am moderately grump about this, since CALL-ME is an internal thing that should either be wrapped by a stable API or should be completely hidden 04:44
ZzZombo Yea, my though exactly. 04:45
thought*
Xliff geekosaur ~~ s/grump/grumpy/ # ? 04:46
geekosaur yeh
Xliff :)
skids
.oO(exposed circular saw tooth)
 04:48
yoleaux 25 Dec 2017 02:58Z <Zoffix> skids: Can't figure out... what does "fragged" mean in this commit? github.com/perl6/roast/commit/65ed...f1b3a019f4
skids Heh. blast from the past.
And the commit is even paster 04:50
.tell Zoffix WRT github.com/perl6/roast/commit/65ed...f1b3a019f4 by "fragged" I just meant that elements were pulled out of the squish in chunks as opposed to the corresponding simple call tests. 05:03
yoleaux skids: I'll pass your message to Zoffix.
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ZzZombo m: &say.wrap(sub($only-one){print $only-one});say 1,2 06:34
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Variable '$only-one' is not declared
at <tmp>:1
------> 3&say.wrap(sub(7⏏5$only-one){print $only-one});say 1,2
ZzZombo m: &say.wrap(anon sub x($only-one){print $only-one});say 1,2 06:35
camelia Too many positionals passed; expected 1 argument but got 2
in sub x at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
ZzZombo m: say 1,2;&say.wrap(anon sub x($only-one){print $only-one});say 1,2 06:36
camelia 12
Too many positionals passed; expected 1 argument but got 2
in sub x at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
_npr_ Hi. Is there any cms based on perl 6 for internet shop devepopment?
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AlexDaniel squashable6: next 09:30
squashable6 AlexDaniel, ⚠🍕 Next SQUASHathon in 2 days and ≈0 hours (2018-02-03 UTC-12⌁UTC+14). See github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Mont...Squash-Day
moritz are these typos in squashable6's output (like "Nextd") intentional? 09:43
AlexDaniel moritz: nextd? 09:44
moritz: I don't see it. What about here? irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2018-01-31#i_15760288 09:45
moritz AlexDaniel: might have been a terminal artifact 09:48
weird, it displays the Unicode characters fine 09:50
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Zoffix m: BEGIN with '/tmp/subz'.IO.mkdir { .add('ZS.pm6').spurt: ｢my subset Path::e is export where 42｣ }; use lib </tmp/subz/>; use ZS; say 42 ~~ Path::e 10:55
yoleaux 05:03Z <skids> Zoffix: WRT github.com/perl6/roast/commit/65ed...f1b3a019f4 by "fragged" I just meant that elements were pulled out of the squish in chunks as opposed to the corresponding simple call tests.
camelia Could not find symbol '&e'
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Zoffix What is its problem?
ZzZombo Is "is rw" trait inherited by subclasses? 10:56
Zoffix m: BEGIN with '/tmp/subz'.IO.mkdir { .add('ZS.pm6').spurt: ｢my subset Path::e where 42; sub EXPORT { %( "Path::e" => Path::e ) }; ｣ }; use lib </tmp/subz/>; use ZS; say 42 ~~ Path::e 11:00
camelia Could not find symbol '&e'
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Zoffix m: BEGIN with '/tmp/subz'.IO.mkdir { .add('ZS.pm6').spurt: ｢my subset Path::e where 42; sub EXPORT { %( "Pathe" => Path::e ) }; ｣ }; use lib </tmp/subz/>; use ZS; say 42 ~~ Path::e
camelia Could not find symbol '&e'
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Zoffix m: BEGIN with '/tmp/subz'.IO.mkdir { .add('ZS.pm6').spurt: ｢my subset Path::e where 42; sub EXPORT { %( "Pathe" => Path::e ) }; ｣ }; use lib </tmp/subz/>; use ZS; say 42 ~~ Pathe
camelia True
Zoffix I just love how the docs skirt the issue and only show the "shortname" example and pretend no one would want to export a symbol with :: in the name 11:01
Ven`` Well I don't think it makes sense. You're taking a peg that has its own rules already, adding stuff to it, then getting surprised it follows the peg's rules
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Zoffix Well, between R#1458 and this bullshit I wasted an hour on what should've been a 5-minute module and have to scrape the idea. So fuck this bullshit. Yeah, blame me for pegs and all the shit, I'm just a newcomer who doesn't understand Perl 6, right? 11:04
synopsebot R#1458 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1458 Symbols that start with core namespaces always get exported
Zoffix Sheesh
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Ven`` That's no way to react. 11:06
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Geth whateverable: 86fd9c07c3 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | lib/Whateverable.pm6
All releases are good

I don't know what was the motivation for this code, but it does not work anyway.		 11:29
whateverable: 5dfdeee5e5 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | 2 files
Inline summary for Greppable

Fixes #259 (with tests)
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Geth ecosystem: b567a0b8c7 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | META.list
Add Subsets::IO to ecosystem

  "Subsets for various types of IO::Path instances":
  github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-Subsets-IO		 11:38
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buggable New CPAN upload: P5reverse-0.0.1.tar.gz by ELIZABETH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/...0.1.tar.gz 11:45
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buggable New CPAN upload: P5built-ins-0.0.6.tar.gz by ELIZABETH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/...0.6.tar.gz 11:55
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AlexDaniel github! Stop touching my interface! (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ 11:57
every goddamn day they change something small :) 11:58
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Zoffix Ven``, so what's the "peg"? Why do symbols with :: in the name silently fail to export? 12:24
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Zoffix docs.perl6.org/language/modules#EXPORT "You can export arbitrary symbols with an EXPORT sub. EXPORT must return a Map, where the keys are the symbol names and the values are the desired values" 12:32
"then getting surprised it follows the peg's rules"... No, I'm getting surprised when something that's literally written in the documentation does not do what it says it would do and doesn't show any etrors 12:41
Instead of blaming the users, people professing to have superior knowledge could fix the docs.
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Skarsnik Hello 12:53
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pmurias I'm implementing utf8-c8 on the js backend 13:01
in nqp tests should I check that it encodes stuff into string with that special private character 13:02
jnthn No
Just check that it roundtrips on encode, I think
I'd say the the exact choice of private char used there is an implementation detail 13:03
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PrincipiaMa Hi 13:07
How do I get my code to click a "Next" button on a installed program? 13:08
Skarsnik You want to write something that perform an action on another software? 13:10
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PrincipiaMa Yes 13:11
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Zoffix PrincipiaMa: on what OS? Windows/ 13:16
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PrincipiaMa Zoffix: Oh no, it's just a standard Debian system 13:21
ZzZombo how can I emulate the behavior of `BUILDALL` for a custom submethod? 13:22
Zoffix PrincipiaMa: ah, no idea then. For Windows there's AutoIt. 13:23
stmuk_ PrincipiaMa: maybe nativecall and xmacro?
PrincipiaMa Zoffix: Okay, thanks anyway 13:25
stmuk_: I've not really worked with either before, but I'll have a look
stmuk_ or Inline::Python with autokey
looks harder than I'd have hoped TBH 13:26
Skarsnik there is a x command for that too
but searching for a button text must not be easy
stmuk_ yeah usually its a coord based input I think 13:27
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jkramer lol I just noticed that my script that does that (1 xx 150).combinations thing I started yesterday is still running and generating the same sequence over and over again :D 13:44
72529.97s user 51.44s system 99% cpu 20:09:43.50 total
I think it's time to give up 13:45
moritz m: say [*] 1..150 13:50
camelia 57133839564458545904789328652610540031895535786011264182548375833179829124845398393126574488675311145377107878746854204162666250198684504466355949195922066574942592095735778929325357290444962472405416790722118445437122269675520000000000000000000000000…
moritz it'll just try a few combinations :-)
m: say chars [*] 1..150
camelia 263
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PrincipiaMa Well, it looks all I need to do is "just" send a click event to the X Window System. 13:57
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stmuk_ pl6anet.org/drop/rakudo-star-2018.01.RC0.dmg 14:12
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wictory[m] m: my @a; @a[0] = [1,2,3]; for @a[0] { (++$).say } 14:16
camelia 1
wictory[m] is there any nice way to loop over `@a[0]` here? 14:17
jnthn m: my @a; @a[0] = [1,2,3]; for @a[0].list { (++$).say } 14:19
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jnthn m: my @a; @a[0] = [1,2,3]; for |@a[0] { (++$).say }
camelia 1
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jnthn Depends what you consider nice :)
wictory[m] that ofcourse a matter of opinion :) this was what I was looking for. However, why doesn't the syntax (?) understand that I want to loop over the array `@a[0]` without `.list` or `|`? 14:21
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Zoffix wictory[m]: because you stuck it into a Scalar container, so it gets treated as one item. See perl6advent.wordpress.com/2017/12/...oneandonly 14:21
m: my @a; @a[0] := [1,2,3]; for @a[0] { (++$).say }
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jnthn heh, was just going to look for that article :-) 14:22
Zoffix huggable: decont
huggable Zoffix, Article on containers and decont: perl6advent.wordpress.com/2017/12/...oneandonly
Zoffix ^ it's under that factoid
jnthn ah, cool 14:23
Skarsnik btw anyplan to have mutable set more intuitve to use? x) 14:25
Zoffix Skarsnik: like how?
m: my %s is SetHash; %s<a b c>»++; say %s 14:26
camelia SetHash(a b c)
Skarsnik I remember trying to use a Set to store file I already encountered but I never figured how to add a new entry easily
Zoffix Just %s{$foo}++;
wictory[m] Zoffix: very nice! now I also learn what `decont` is :) 14:27
Skarsnik Also I would have prefered it stay an Array like
not a hash ^^ 14:28
Zoffix There's also RT#128903
synopsebot RT#128903 [open]: rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=128903 [BUG] SetHash::push not implemented
Skarsnik but why a hash in the first place? it does not feel natural at all
Zoffix Skarsnik: it's looked up by key :/ 14:29
Skarsnik: would you always do %set.grep: "value" and have it search the entire thing?
Skarsnik well Set are not array
*hash
Zoffix Skarsnik: they're not an indexed collection of items either 14:30
Skarsnik it's just weird that suddendly writable set are not array too
Zoffix I see nothing weird with that
Skarsnik consistency? 14:31
Zoffix With what? The last item I placed in the set? I don't care about that. I care about whether an item is or is not in teh set. Its position relative to other items is irrelevant
Skarsnik So why Set are not hash?
Zoffix Hashes can be nested. Sets have weights 14:32
It's like asking why strings aren't arrays?
Skarsnik I don't see the comparaison. A Set is a set, mutable or not it should not be different object 14:34
Zoffix Skarsnik: you can't use a set everywhere you can use a hash, so it's not a good subclass
Something about ducks and all en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liskov_subst..._principle 14:35
Skarsnik why are you talking about a hash?
Zoffix Skarsnik: "Skarsnik │ So why Set are not hash?"
Skarsnik a hash is a list a key => value association. a Set is just a list a value under the constraint of no duplicate 14:36
jast and SetHash is the perl6 name for a type of set. I might not have called it that, but there you go.
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jast (possibly named sobecause it's implemented using a hashtable, but I haven't actually looked at the code) 14:37
Skarsnik I get that a hash is a good implementation of a Set since key are uniq, but why as an user I have to see a hash when I just want a list. 14:38
jast it isn't a hash, it just has the word 'hash' in its name 14:41
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PrincipiaMa Hey guys, would the best way to run a c program from perl be just to open a shell and call do a shell command to run that program? 15:07
huf or you can just run the program without involving the shell
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pmurias PrincipiaMa: docs.perl6.org/routine/run 15:09
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PrincipiaMa pmurias: Thanks! 15:10
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[Coke] There, that's better. 15:10
Geth doc: cc5f4fc568 | pmurias++ | doc/Type/IO.pod6
Explain run example more
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/type/IO
pmurias [Coke]: ? 15:11
AlexDaniel squashable6: next 15:13
squashable6 AlexDaniel, ⚠🍕 Next SQUASHathon in 1 day and ≈18 hours (2018-02-03 UTC-12⌁UTC+14). See github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Mont...Squash-Day
pmurias when calling command from examples do we want to link to descriptions of what they do?
Skarsnik unrelated: does Cro work on win32? 15:14
abraxxa Skarsnik: Microsoft wants to kill Win32 and replace it with UWP 15:16
jkramer I wish docs.perl6.org's search wasn't JS so I could add a search shortcut to my browser 15:18
tyil jkramer: iktf
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MasterDuke Skarsnik: i don't know, but you could also try in #cro 15:19
Skarsnik Ho x)
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[Coke] pmurias - irc.p6c.org is down 15:26
jkramer, on the wish list. 15:27
(docs search)
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[Coke] jkramer; actually, something *like* it is, but not that specifically; please open a github issue if you don't already see one 15:31
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ZzZombo Can I force a type capture to derive from a given class? 15:46
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moritz m: role Bla[Cool ::T] { method t { say T.^name } }; Bla[Int].t 15:53
camelia Int
moritz m: role Bla[Cool ::T] { method t { say T.^name } }; Bla[Any].t
camelia No appropriate parametric role variant available for 'Bla'
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
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buggable New CPAN upload: Algorithm-GooglePolylineEncoding-0.0.3.tar.gz by SCIMON cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/S/SC/...0.3.tar.gz 15:55
[Coke] news.perlfoundation.org/2018/01/cal...nua-2.html - call for TPF grant proposals for January 2018 round. 15:58
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jkramer Is anyone here using Net::IMAP (github.com/retupmoca/P6-Net-IMAP) and/or knows a thing or two about the protocol? 16:14
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ibo2go hello question: 16:22
m: 1..3 +1
camelia WARNINGS for <tmp>:
Useless use of ".." in expression "1..3 +" in sink context (line 1)
jnthn m: say 1..3 + 1 16:23
camelia 1..4
ibo2go yes but
m: say (1..3) +2
camelia 3..5
jnthn Right
Because 1..3 + 1 parsers as 1 .. (3 + 1) 16:24
jkramer I think +1 without the space means the 1 is coerced into an Int?
ibo2go but then i would expect 1..5 not 3..5
jkramer I think it shifts the whole range, not just .max 16:25
jnthn In 1 .. 3 + 1 then 3+1 is evaluated first to give 4, the result being the range 1..4
jkramer Oh so the space matters there too? 16:26
jnthn In the case of (1..3) + 2, the operation being formed is Range + Int, which gives a new Range with both endpoints shifted
jkramer: No, the spaces don't matter at all to the meaning
jkramer m: 1 .. 3 + 1
camelia WARNINGS for <tmp>:
Useless use of ".." in expression "1 .. 3 +" in sink context (line 1)
jkramer Huh
jnthn Writing 1..3 + 1 is actually pretty confusing, because it will make human readers thing it means something than the computer will think it means :) 16:27
m: say 1+2 * 3
camelia 7
jnthn m: say 1 + 2*3
camelia 7
jnthn The spaces don't matter, just the precedence rules
ibo2go m: say 1 .. 3 + 2
camelia 1..5
ibo2go m: say 1..3 +2
camelia 1..5
jnthn No matter how you write it, .. is looser than +, so without parentheses, the + will always happen first 16:28
ibo2go m: say (1 .. 3) +2
camelia 3..5
ZzZombo m: say (0.1...1) * 10
camelia 10
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ZzZombo m: say (0.1..1) * 10 16:29
camelia 1.0..10
jnthn Also, in case this is the source of confusion: .. constructs a Range object
It doesn't expand into a list of values unless it is asked to 16:30
skids m: say (1 .. 3) >>+>> 2 16:31
camelia (3 4 5)
skids (one way of asking it to)
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Zoffix m: sub ($x = 1|2) {}(); 16:32
Should that thread or just throw?
camelia (timeout)
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jnthn Urgh 16:33
I think throw 16:34
ibo2go jnthn: So 1 .. 3 +2 is a range 1 .. 5 and (1 .. 3) +2 is adding 2 to each element of the range?
Zoffix Sounds good.
jnthn ibo2go: Not quite "to each element", just "to the start and end"
Zoffix: While it would be sort of cute to make it work, the contortions it would take are...immense
Zoffix :)
ibo2go m: say (^3) +2 16:35
camelia 2..^5
jnthn m: say 1..1000000000000000000000000000000000000
camelia 1..1000000000000000000000000000000000000
jnthn m: say (1..1000000000000000000000000000000000000) + 5
camelia 6..1000000000000000000000000000000000005
jnthn If it were doing each element there, it'd never complete so fast :)
Zoffix ibo2go: it might be easier to visualize that as `Range.new(1, 3) + 3`. There's no values "in between". Just two attributes: $!min/$!max. The &infix:<+> operator just changes those two values 16:36
jkramer Has no one ever used Net::IMAP? I think I found a bug that basically completely breaks the module, but since no one ever complained about it I think I might just make a fool out of myself reporting it. :D
Zoffix m: say (1..2).Capture
camelia \(:!excludes-max, :!excludes-min, :!infinite, :is-int, :max(2), :min(1))
Zoffix m: say ((1..2)+3).Capture
camelia \(:!excludes-max, :!excludes-min, :!infinite, :is-int, :max(5), :min(4))
ibo2go yes, I understand now jnthn++ Zoffix++ though it is counterintutive to me 16:38
Zoffix m: multi infix:<♥> { $^a ** $^b }; multi infix:<♥> (Range $_, \pow) { .clone: :min(.min**pow), :max(.max**pow) }; say 2..3 ♥ 3 16:41
camelia 2..27
Zoffix m: multi infix:<♥> { $^a ** $^b }; multi infix:<♥> (Range $_, \pow) { .clone: :min(.min**pow), :max(.max**pow) }; say (2..3) ♥ 3
camelia 8..27
Zoffix ^_^
jc_denton1 Is anyone familiar with Proc::Async? I'm trying to emit the stdout but it seems I can't use that method within .tap
Zoffix m: multi infix:<♥> (Range $_, \pow) is looser(&[..]) { .clone: :min(.min**pow), :max(.max**pow) }; say 2..3 ♥ 3 16:42
camelia 8..27
Zoffix jc_denton1: can you pastebin the non-working code? 16:43
jc_denton1 Sure, I can get the output with the say but I wanted to make use of it with another script 16:50
pastebin.com/BzY2FcQz
I feel like I'm missing sometime very simple there
jnthn jc_denton1: Is that the thing that works, or the thing that doesn't work? :) 16:52
(I don't see an emit in there) 16:53
Zoffix e: with Proc::Async.new: «perl6 -e "say ｢Hello, World!｣"» { .stdout.tap: *.say; await .start } 16:54
evalable6 Hello, World!
16:54 konsolebox left
Zoffix jc_denton1: ^ seems to work. What's your code that creates `$async` variable? 16:54
jnthn But if your goal is to have a Supply that just emits the stuff coming out of stdout then you'd write something like supply { my $async = Proc::Async.new(...); whenever $async.stdout { .emit }; whenever $async.start { done } } or some such
Zoffix Ah 16:55
Zoffix &
16:55 Zoffix left
jc_denton1 jnthn yeah that code works because I'm using the say. When I tried .emit $output I ran into errors. 16:55
Ah that's where I was going wrong! I'll give it a try now thanks 16:56
jnthn You need to be inside of a supply block to use emit or .emit :)
jc_denton1 Yeah, that's what the error was telling me. I tried every other silly way of trying to do it D'oh
the errors with my atempts to fix it I mean 16:57
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jc_denton1 jnthn: that did just what I was hoping for. Thanks a lot 17:08
jnthn Welcome :) 17:09
In general, prefer to use supply/react/whenever syntax over .tap, because it does things like subscription management and error propagation for you 17:10
El_Che we should be a "famous jnthn quotes around" 17:11
it could be a bot
"What would jnthn do?" 17:12
bang
Skarsnik xD
jnthn :P 17:13
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raiph m: my \foo .= bar 19:06
camelia ===SORRY!===
Method call node requires at least one child
19:06 zeddy__k joined
raiph bisectable: my \foo .= bar 19:06
bisectable6 raiph, On both starting points (old=2015.12 new=72948e8) the exit code is 1 and the output is identical as well
raiph, Output on both points: «===SORRY!===␤Method call node requires at least one child␤»
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Geth perl6-most-wanted: vadrer++ created pull request #42:
add Tcl, Tcl::Tk GUI binding; move WxWidgets from modules to bindings		 19:24
perl6-most-wanted: 6e8f71e224 | U-CORP\konovv++ | 2 files
add Tcl, Tcl::Tk GUI binding; move WnWidgets from modules to bindings
perl6-most-wanted: ddd09c4be7 | (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | 2 files
Merge pull request #42 from vadrer/master

add Tcl, Tcl::Tk GUI binding; move WxWidgets from modules to bindings
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DrForr .tell lizmat You just made the @OSCON twitter front page. 20:24
yoleaux DrForr: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
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AlexDaniel squashable6: next 20:39
squashable6 AlexDaniel, ⚠🍕 Next SQUASHathon in 1 day and ≈13 hours (2018-02-03 UTC-12⌁UTC+14). See github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Mont...Squash-Day
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comborico1611 Can we have a showing of top 5 most popular programming languges of the 90's? Would C, Perl, C++, Java, Javascript be that list? 20:59
mspo not sure about js
but definitely the others, along with VB? 21:00
comborico1611 Ah, yes. I would also think VB
MasterDuke fortran or cobol perhaps?
mspo cobol was in its death by the late 90's 21:01
although people in my school learned it
comborico1611 Which of these languages we have mentioned has loose typing? 21:02
mspo VB and perl
comborico1611 VB does? I didn't know that.
That is what I thought.
mspo well whatever loosely typed means
I think I have it wrong 21:03
wikipedia says perl is strongly typed :)
comborico1611 It is a shame that Perl does not have the well known reputatation of popularizing loose typing.
moritz perl and VB are strongly typed at run time
comborico1611 I mean loose typing in source code. 21:04
mspo you mean dynamic typing? 21:05
comborico1611 I'm just ruminating on the major things Perl has contributed.
moritz I type in an editor :-)
skids (but VB only because you are literally banging on the keyboard by the time you get anything running :-)
comborico1611 I suppose I don't know the difference between loosely type and dynamic.
21:05 rindolf left
skids STRONGLY TYPED!!! 21:06
comborico1611 moritz: Ha. You know what I mean.
mspo forth is the only languag with real freedom
comborico1611 Dynamic typing is huge thing Perl had right in the beginning.
So we are all settled on C, Perl, C++, Java, Visual Basic? 21:07
Is that the correct order, ya think?
skids wonders how popular *awk was pre-perl.
mspo well the world of computers 1992 was very different than 1999
you see in late 1991 this weird thing happened :) 21:08
zeddy__k linux? 21:09
mspo well, really, 1993 was *the* year
mosaic was released
skids Yep that was totally a game changer.
comborico1611 Then to be technical, I mean 1991 - 1999. :)
Never heard of it. 21:10
mspo :( ...kids...
comborico1611 Haha. I'm 31!
skids First graphical web browser.
comborico1611 EWWWWWWW AHHH. Yes that would be important.
mspo not technically the "first" but the first one that mattered
comborico1611 I see. 21:11
skids And it rendered pretty well even on 16-color palettes
mspo it was replaced by netscape from ~1995 and forward 21:12
comborico1611 Why did Netscape change their name to Mozilla?
El_Che wasn't it through the opensourcing of the code? 21:13
mspo because netscape was garbage by the time IE totally destoyed it? I don't remember
skids Dunno. They got sick of hearing "Netscrape"?
El_Che mspo: that wasn't the case
IE wasn't better at all
mspo El_Che: just 5x faster 21:14
El_Che it was bundled with the OS running on 95% of everything
geekosaur netscape the company and its server products still existed. the browser was split off and open sourced
mspo early firefox was also slower by a mile than IE6
El_Che mspo: no way
I ran that thing in alpha, it was fast
mspo El_Che: our experiences differ :) 21:15
El_Che and it wasn't called firefox either
mspo El_Che: you probably had more memory than me
phoenix, indeed
geekosaur remember IE6 got to be "small" because 90% of it was built into windows
El_Che mspo: I was backpacking in those days (2y) and I had it on a cd/floppy
installed everywhere on cybercafés (it was a thing) to use better browser
geekosaur which got Microsoft sued by the EU 21:16
El_Che a lot of places had a lot of cute IE kiosk software
you could break it by sneezing :)
comborico1611 What do you use for mobile browser?
El_Che and after sneezing a needed a browser :)
comborico1611: FF + ublock origin
skids probably is in the low 1% or so of ratio to time browsing on IE vs everything else. Gave up Win at linux release 0.9.something IIRC.
mspo I feel like I ran IE in wine at some point 21:17
early 2000's?
El_Che FF is 2003
2002 was phoenix 21:18
zeddy__k comborico1611: brave, they do a good job on mobile, desktop is still a bit unstable, although usable
El_Che (first name)
2003 firebirx (2nd name)
2004 (firefox)
mspo by 2000 netscape was a mini operating system
comborico1611 El_Che: zeddy__k: Thank you!
El_Che so I was installing phoenix and firebird :)
mspo it was terrible
21:18 zakharyas joined
El_Che mspo: I loved it 21:19
mspo El_Che: yeah you had memory to spare :)
comborico1611 Remember altavista? and the host of other ones?
mspo comborico1611: yes
El_Che mspo: no, like I told you I installed on dozens of pcs
geekosaur dogpile
El_Che oh, and I set up a Linux ISP in the Amazon for free
comborico1611 dogpile was one? ahah I don't recall it. 21:20
I do remember Lycos.
geekosaur dogpile was a meta-search engine
El_Che they had big antennas and everything, but they ran NT that crashed constantly
skids dogpile was the "screw this there are too many search engines" solution.
geekosaur rerfomratted your query for compatibility, submitted it to every search engine it knew about, presented the collated results
until all the search engines changed their TOSes to block it
21:20 preaction left
mspo yeah dogpile didn't last long 21:20
AltaVista was pretty good until google google google google
comborico1611 How long did it last?
El_Che I actually picked google up because they had google.com/linux 21:21
skids askjeeves goes way back too IIRC.
geekosaur couple years. wasn;t untile veryone else discovered it that the other search engines panicked and shut it down
mspo comborico1611: still around: www.dogpile.com/
I finally left altavista for google because of pop-up ads
geekosaur and yes, technically still there. they started doing frame and other annoying things to comply with TOSes, but it became much more annoyinbg to use after that
and yeh, all the ads was why I jumped from altavista to google 21:22
google still amanges a decent balance there imo
comborico1611 Oh yeah! Ask Jeeves was becoming #1, in my area.
People could relate to Jeeves.
geekosaur they have ads but they;re not nearly as intrusive
mspo another money machine I totally missed out on (early web ads) 21:23
comborico1611 Heh.
If Google wasn't around Ask Jeeves would have been the most popular.
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comborico1611 Anyone remember 2AM online gaming? 21:24
mspo yahoo as pertty big
comborico1611 Yahoo and AOL, yup.
mspo the era of aol cdroms
geekosaur heheh
mspo wasn't AOL a massive perl user? 21:25
geekosaur was a beta tester for AOL
mspo or were they all tcl
geekosaur just before they renamed to that, in fact, when it was still applelink personal edition
comborico1611 Did AOL go bankrupt?
mspo no they're still around as a media/ads company 21:26
comborico1611 I bet those AOL cdroms will become collector items.
geekosaur bought and resold multiple times
mspo nyc taxis blare AOL content
comborico1611 All those CDs are somehwere right now.
mspo I was a BBS kid
geekosaur and I recall AOL being all tcl
comborico1611 No one here used 2AM to play games? 21:27
Chain of Command?
geekosaur inclduing releasing a unix client written in tcl/tk
I wa snevera big gamer
...
was never a
mspo geekosaur: never a space-bar user? :) 21:28
geekosaur that too :p
comborico1611 geekosaur: that's a good thing. Games are time-wasters.
If I spent as much time studying programming as trying to learn how to bunnyhop in a game, I'd be better off right now. 21:29
El_Che comborico1611: you'd be a dull boy 21:30
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comborico1611 El_Che: A gamer, eh? 21:32
El_Che comborico1611: a too many interests, not enough sleep - type
comborico1611 I see. 21:33
I wonder if people still go to those Yahoo chatrooms.
It's weird to me that people would actually use those still today. I'm aware I'm using a chatroom. 21:34
El_Che comborico1611: so you missed the fun of gopher?
comborico1611 gopher? I suppose so.
El_Che comborico1611: you shoud watch "halt and catch fire" for some just-missed-nostalgia 21:35
comborico1611 Okay.
El_Che know the show? 21:36
targetted 20-50y techies
comborico1611 Not familiar with it. 21:37
El_Che en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halt_and_Cat...TV_series)
skids just back from months of killing mirelurks and getting nothing else at all done.
comborico1611 I watched Antitrust.
But that was during "my time". 21:38
I usually only watch TV to watch the cage fighting.
But this does seem intesting enough that I may look for it if I have free time. 21:39
geekosaur even that wikipedia article's a bit crap. HCF was a joke opcode in the assembly language programmer community
comborico1611 "The battle for CTRL begins"
geekosaur although iirc it had a real world inspiration, a bad run of one old CPU that had an unoimplemented opcode that could cause the chip to overheat
El_Che geekosaur: if there was a way to fix that... 21:40
geekosaur which of course meant you only ran into it if you started executing data as code
comborico1611 What was the second popular programming language that used dynamic typing after Perl? 21:41
geekosaur actually you should be relating that to spectre :) same idea, half-assed / happy-go-lucky CPU implementation with little thought for what happens when someone doesnt follow The Rules™ 21:42
comborico1611 JavaScript?
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mspo tcl was around in the 1990's too 21:44
tcl is on version 8 :) 21:45
comborico1611 But was it popular? 21:46
mspo ish
El_Che they had a popular graphical toolkit
have
worked with
tk
or was it separated?
comborico1611 Is this the proper order of Perl influences: C, sed, awk, sh ?
mspo tcl was super common in commercial applications
geekosaur comborico1611, not sure there's a good ordering 21:47
comborico1611 geekosaur: Haha.
geekosaur perl was always a bit of an idea supercollider
also, don;t forget the postfix conditionals from a BASIC dialect :p
not sure modern perl even admits to that origin 21:48
comborico1611 Oh, yeah?
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comborico1611 What are the biggest two in that last? C and awk? 21:48
in that *list
mspo awk and shell are massive
I'm sure Larry Wall has answered this a few times 21:49
comborico1611 But where, mijo?
mspo check youtube
comborico1611 Haha. You're funny.
El_Che comborico1611: get this book: shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596515171.do
good read
comborico1611 Yeah! That does look like a good one. 21:50
Thanks!
geekosaur as for Tk, it was always distributed separately but tightly tied to Tcl 21:51
El_Che it has been 8y since I read it, but I remember liking it
geekosaur perl/tk introduced the idea of hackily rewrapping it for other langauges. python tried that and then switched to an interface shim
21:51 setty1 joined
geekosaur which ended up being a lot more stable and portable when Tk was changing a lot to accommodate non-unix 21:52
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comborico1611 El_Che: Too bad they didn't get LISP-guy in there. I forget his name. John something. 21:54
I gotta get this book, though. 21:55
geekosaur McCarthy
mspo the creators of UML 21:56
comborico1611 That's right. I wonder if he ever wanted to update LISP.
mspo: Are you mocking that? I like UML. lol 21:57
UML is a little bit... uh tight around the collar. But it is useful. 21:58
But, no doubt, that will be a boring chapter. 21:59
mspo comborico1611: I thought it was dead 22:03
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comborico1611 There must be a confusiion of terms. I'm thinking of Unified Modeling Language 22:04
geekosaur UML's not dead, it's corporate 22:05
open source dweebs tend to think corporate works just like they do. it doesn't
mspo I was too :)
zeddy__k unfortunately it's still alive 22:06
I use it on uni, as part of a class 22:07
AlexDaniel yea, universities love that 💩 22:09
tony-o we used uml at the last corporate job i had 22:10
AlexDaniel tony-o: did it help?
tony-o it did 22:11
we didn't use it for coding, though - i was a data warehouse director and managed the ops people
we had a uml library that outlined all of our network and servers, processes for different positions/scenarios (like disaster recovery) 22:12
comborico1611 Okay, so besides tcl, concerning poppular programming languages in the 90's, dynamic typing shows up first in Perl then in JaavaScript. 22:13
(Python wasn't popular enough in the 90s) 22:14
tony-o i wrote a sharepoint (gross) module that would display the uml as a chart using graphael to make it easier for people to view the charts. i made people use them and update them monthly or quarterly and analyzed which ones weren't getting used so we could nix them. it was super helpful when we had things like actual disasters where people tend to get stressed
comborico1611: when did php get popular, wasn't that around in the late 90s? 22:15
comborico1611 tony-o: Interesting.
I guess PHP was around the same time as Javascript. 22:16
I didn't know if it was popular then, though. I don't remember seeing a lot of .php back then.
22:17 zakharyas left
comborico1611 But I was just a child. 22:17
zeddy__k JS 1995, PHP 1997 22:18
xi- the dawn of modern web
xi- wonders
zeddy__k PHP had the biggest jump in popularity in early 2000s
xi- I just puked a little
comborico1611 Web 2.0 22:19
xi- god early web 2.0 was horrible
not like it's that much better now though, just in a different way
also remember that java applets were a thing 22:20
that's why javascript is named javascript
comborico1611 Time for supper. Thanks fellas. 22:21
22:21 comborico1611 left
zeddy__k which languages do you use besides perl/perl6? 22:24
xi- C, racket and other schemes
that's about it 22:25
I tried to avoid C++ where I can but there are too many interesting C++ projects
how about you?
zeddy__k I dabbled in c, c++, java, python and perl 22:26
xi- nice
zeddy__k I'll start php next semester, and I'm not looking forward to it 22:27
xi- I have a love/hate relationship with java
zeddy__k also pascal in high school, it was mandatory
xi- I like and appreciate its design but.........
it's java
zeddy__k I know the feeling
especially the whole ctrl+space to program that eclipse has 22:28
xi- so that's another language that I avoid at all costs but I watch from afar just because the JVM is interesting
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tony-o eclipse is such a pita to use 22:30
didn't realize they had eclipse setup for pascal though, i remember writing it with borland's compiler 22:31
xi- what stops you from writing it with your preferred text editor?
and then using a build script like everything else 22:32
tony-o i have nothing interesting to write in pascal anymore, perl[6] is the way to go, p6 if i can get away with it
22:32 skids left
tony-o i don't use eclipse, i tried using it when i was writing android apps - then i stopped using eclipse 22:32
xi- I find myself using perl 5 more often these days, I use perl6 surprisingly often for its shell though 22:33
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zeddy__k eclipse is tiring with all the warnings, "unused variable here, yo, look, yellow triangle, look here", of course it is, I just put it there a millisecond ago 22:34
xi- I generally don't like IDEs 22:35
zeddy__k but it's nowhere close to VS when it comes to phantom errors
IntelliSense or however it's called is so slow, and shows errors that have been corrected 22:36
it drives me crazy, and I have to use it for my exams since we program on Uni computers running Windows
xi- that's a shame :/ 22:37
Xliff AlexDaniel++: 💩 # The designers of UTF are spinning in their.... lawn chairs?
Re: This latest topic of Java, PHP and such.... 22:38
zeddy__k I put VS vim extension on all of the PCs once, that was fun to watch
Xliff C++: I ♥ because it was my next language after C (which I used, but hated because C++ made many things easier) 22:39
AlexDaniel zeddy__k: related ticket: RT#132306
xi- yeah, but it's a complex language
synopsebot RT#132306 [open]: rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=132306 [PERF] parameters, even if unused, make stuff slower ( f1($a, $, $, $, $, $) vs f2($a, $b, $c, $d, $e, $f) )
Xliff However the C/C++ still have this horrible dependence on the pre-processer, which makes NativeCall sad.
AlexDaniel zeddy__k: so there's a chance that we'll add warnings for unused parameters… 22:40
Xliff Then there was Perl and my life changed for the better.
zeddy__k it's ok if it's compile time warnings
Xliff Then there was PHP which I throw up a little in my mouth, every time I have to use it.
I swear it stands for Perl Hostile Pretender
xi- the fact that it supports so many paradigms and abstractions at once makes some libraries overly complex for simple purposes, which means I have to spend more time studying them before doing anything with them as opposed to a C library (or a perl module, but that's on another level of simplicity which I love :D) 22:41
geekosaur .oO { www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archi...00108.html }
tony-o not a big fan of php but it has gotten a lot better from the early days where the same command run twice would have varying results 22:42
AlexDaniel note 42
evalable6 42
Xliff Then there was Java (which I had to use for $job) which I had avoided earlier due to CLASSPATH issues and 💩. It seemed to me to be an extremely haphazard language until IDEs took the headaches away. Now it's like top 5 languages for me. 22:43
AlexDaniel heh… so that seems to be working
zeddy__k note 42
Xliff But before all of that was Delphi, which was based on Pascal, which was my first love.
evalable6 42
geekosaur Xliff, Perl Hedache Producer (remember that it was originally a set of perl scripts!)
zeddy__k it does work
geekosaur *Headache
zeddy__k I don't know what I just did
Xliff You don't hear from Pascal much (or even Delphi) anymore.
geekosaur: WAT?!?!? 22:44
geekosaur ran into a Delphi program sometime last year. wtf, it's still there?
xi- Xliff most I hear of Pascal is some Ada stuff
Xliff geekosaur++: If that is true, I LOVE that acronym.
geekosaur Xliff, Personal Home Page generator, written in perl. Headache Producer is my own snark thereof
zeddy__k Paslcal is mandatory in Serbian high schools and Math Unis 22:45
Pascal*
Xliff geekosaur: They do not mention the Perl aspect in the Wikipedia article. 22:46
That seems like a glaring omission right thar.
xi- I found this twitter.com/rasmus/status/226405807305138176
geekosaur they should, I mean it's why php looks so much like perl in the first place
Xliff geekosaur: Delphi made writing Win database apps *easy*.
geekosaur: I thought it was just a blatant ripoff language, but now it all makes sense!! 22:47
xi- they say it was influenced by perl, but it was never made in perl
Xliff And I know I've made my issues with PHP clear, here.
22:48 setty1 left
geekosaur so what got released was the C version, but the initial prototype was perl, as I read this 22:48
and, as noted in the comments, that was in the official history 22:49
xi- yeah
Xliff LOL.
They can hide the true, but IT WANTS TO BE FREE!
s/true/truth/
evalable6 Use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context.
Methods .^name, .perl, .gist, or .say can be used to stringify it to something meaningful.
in block <unit> at /tmp/7vHqXkPWSt line 1
Xliff ?!? 22:50
Shut up, evalable6!
AlexDaniel :D
geekosaur evilable6
AlexDaniel evilable6: say 42
evalable6 42
Xliff AlexDaniel: I'm stealing all this 💩 💩 💩 💩 💩 from you. It's all your fault!! ;)
xi- say hi
evalable6 say hi
zeddy__k evilable666
xi- evalable6 say hi;
I don't know how this works :( 22:51
zeddy__k evalable6: say hi
evalable6 (exit code 1) 04===SORRY!04=== Error while compiling /tmp/48dHgnfKYj
Undeclared routine:
hi used at line 1
Xliff "Headache" ~~ s/Headache/PHP
xi- evalable6 say "hi";
evalable6: say "hi";
evalable6 hi
xi- \o/
AlexDaniel say "hi"
evalable6 hi
zeddy__k \m/
Xliff say ("Headache" ~~ s/Headache/PHP)
say ("Headache" ~~ s/Headache/PHP/)
xi- /
Xliff say "Hi, I am evilable!" 22:52
zeddy__k use quotes
evalable6 Hi, I am evilable!
AlexDaniel Xliff: that's immutable
Xliff say ("Headache" ~~ S/Headache/PHP/)
evalable6 Potential difficulties:
Smartmatch with S/// is not useful. You can use given instead: S/// given $foo
at /tmp/09XmKupzb2:1
------> 03say ("Headache" ~~ 08⏏04S/Headache/PHP/)
False
Xliff :P
xi- $_ = "Headache"; say s/Headache/PHP/;
evalable6 ｢Headache｣
22:52 trnh joined
xi- $_ = "Headache"; say $_ ~~ s/Headache/PHP/; 22:53
evalable6 ｢Headache｣
xi- I'll stop now
geekosaur try S instead of s
xi- :(
$_ = "Headache"; say $_ ~~ S/Headache/PHP/;
evalable6 Potential difficulties:
Smartmatch with S/// is not useful. You can use given instead: S/// given $foo
at /tmp/B6gv3dDKUU:1
------> 03$_ = "Headache"; say $_ ~~ 08⏏04S/Headache/PHP/;
False
Xliff $_ = "Headache"; s/Headache/PHP/; say $_
evalable6 PHP
geekosaur not with the ~~
zeddy__k note his attempt
xi- here we go
22:53 Kaiepi left
geekosaur $_ = "Headache"; say S/Headache/PHP/ 22:53
evalable6 PHP
AlexDaniel but, you know, you can use “m: ” explicitly without relying on autodetection :) 22:54
22:54 Kaiepi joined
xi- but that's less exciting 22:54
you don't have the suspense of wondering whether it'll respond
AlexDaniel it will always respond if the code is valid and does something meaningful :) 22:55
Xliff I just think that auto evaluation is just a pain waiting to happen.
xi- say "something meaningful 🍤"
evalable6 something meaningful 🍤
zeddy__k the question here is, can we get it read the memory of the host computer? 22:56
AlexDaniel Xliff: it depends – irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2017-05-18#i_14599572
zeddy__k: hacking into dev bots is not a very good idea… 22:57
zeddy__k I was just wondering
AlexDaniel although I support the curiosity, in general :)
Xliff loop { say "Hi!" } 22:59
22:59 colomon left
xi- Xliff I'd be willing to bet there's a timeout on code execution 22:59
and that it's properly sandboxed
22:59 evalable6 left, evalable6 joined 23:00 ChanServ sets mode: +v evalable6
zeddy__k you broke it 23:00
Xliff xi-: Respect may curiosatah!!!!
AlexDaniel ah, I restarted that manually to get updates. There's nothing wrong with loop
loop { say "Hi!" }
s/true/truth/
say 42
evalable6 42
AlexDaniel Xliff: fixed the ‘s///’ thingie, thanks
Xliff AlexDaniel: Stop forking evalable!
xi- fork
Xliff AlexDaniel: 8-) # yw 23:01
xi-: Really? You say that after this -> 🍤 23:02
(￣▼￣)
xi- it's so GOOD
shrimps are actually one of my most favourite foods 23:03
Xliff That's a shrimp?
u: (￣▼￣)
unicodable6 Xliff, U+0028 LEFT PARENTHESIS [Ps] (()
Xliff, U+FFE3 FULLWIDTH MACRON [Sk] (￣)
Xliff, 5 characters in total ((￣▼￣)): gist.github.com/9e71d9ff0e3aa0bf58...7d9e4c952b
Xliff Oops
xi-: Really? You say that after this -> 🍤
Doh'
23:03 _Kaiepi joined
Xliff u: 🍤 23:03
unicodable6 Xliff, U+1F364 FRIED SHRIMP [So] (🍤)
Xliff ( O _ O )
zeddy__k whaaa?
Geth whateverable: 1a5c187636 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | bin/Evalable.p6
Add more brains to detect code

This should trigger more and less at the same time. We will no longer see annoying evals that result in compile time error, but we might see it being triggered on things that actually work (even if surprisingly).
... (8 more lines)		 23:04
zeddy__k it is a shrimp
Xliff thought it was another eggplant.
23:04 Kaiepi left, john_parr left
xi- Xliff ooh 23:05
zeddy__k wait, all these *able things are bots?
AlexDaniel zeddy__k: yes 23:06
zeddy__k neat
AlexDaniel Help pages: github.com/perl6/whateverable/wiki
Xliff xi-: /o\
zeddy__k AlexDaniel: ty 23:11
23:12 cdg_ joined 23:15 cdg left 23:17 epony left 23:18 trnh left 23:26 Skarsnik_ left, john51 left 23:31 alpha6 left 23:33 john51 joined 23:42 AlexDaniel left 23:43 zeddy__k left, john51 left, alpha6 joined 23:44 trnh joined 23:45 john51 joined 23:54 comborico1611 joined
comborico1611 .tell 23:54
yoleaux Relay a telegram to someone
comborico1611 .tell DrForr: Have you heard of this book: Coders at Work: Reflections on the Craft of Programming ? 23:55
yoleaux comborico1611: What kind of a name is "DrForr:"?!
comborico1611 .tell DrForr Have you heard of this book: Coders at Work: Reflections on the Craft of Programming ?
yoleaux comborico1611: I'll pass your message to DrForr.
23:56 comborico joined, comborico1611 left

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