»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend! 🦋
Set by Zoffix on 25 May 2018.
thowe so I need this patch, or is there a way to tell rakudobrew to use clang? 00:03
jnthn There's probably a way to tell rakudobrew to build MoarVM master instead of the version currently suggested 00:05
buggable New CPAN upload: Pod-To-Pager-0.2.0.tar.gz by TYIL modules.perl6.org/dist/Pod::To::Pager:cpan:TYIL 00:06
jnthn The PR was merged, so that should suffice
tyil on docs.perl6.org/language/pod#Unicode, it shows the line Perl 6 makes considerable use of the E<laquo> and E<raquo> characters.
these two entities dont get converted when they're passed through perl6 --doc 00:07
jnthn Looks like the command may be rakudobrew moar-blead or some such
tyil they should become « and », but instead stay laquo and raquo
thowe hm. did rakudobrew build moar master and same problem. Did I do it wrong? 00:12
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MasterDuke thowe: might want to ask Kaiepi directly. he was active pretty recently, so good chance he's around 00:16
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thowe Kaiepi, any tips on getting running on OpenBSD 6.3? 00:28
Kaiepi you'll need to build dyncall and install it manually 00:33
install libuv from ports (not pkg, that version's too old) 00:34
then you can build rakudo with --moar-option=--has-dyncall --moar-option=--has-libuv --moar-option=--cc=clang
thowe if the pkg is too old is the port in the 6.3 branch?
Kaiepi yeah
also wherever you're running perl6, the partition its mounted on needs to have wxallowed set in /etc/fstab 00:35
thowe I'll give all that a try. 00:41
need a ports tree I guess ;P 00:42
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Xliff m: my token word { \w+ }; (".field" ~~ /<word> ** 1..3 % '.'/).gist.say 00:57
camelia ｢field｣
word => ｢field｣
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benjikun How do I use what's inside of a variable as the key when selecting something from a hash 04:55
e.g. my line is `$t6.process('topic', :topic<$topic_title>);`
where I want what's inside $topic_title to be used as the name of the key
I can't tell if I'm extremely dumb and missing something simple 04:56
geekosaur :topic($topic_title)
(note parens instead of angle brackets) 04:57
benjikun weird 04:58
didn't know you could use parenthesis there
geekosaur you can think of it as, whenever you have something surrounded by some kind of brackets attached to something else ("postcircumfix" is what perl 6 calls it), you can use <> in place of those brackets if you want to use a literal string there 04:59
so %foo{'bar'} can be written %foo<bar>, :foo('bar') can be written :foo<bar>, etc. 05:00
benjikun so there is no practical difference between %foo{'bar'} and %foo('bar') 05:01
geekosaur uh? %foo(bar) isn't valid. hashes use {} for associative indexing, as arrays use [] for positional indexing
colonpairs are a different thing; somewhat closely related to Hashes because they're effectively containers for Pairs (colonpairs being one of several syntaxes for Pairs), but not the same thing 05:02
m: :foo(1).WHAT
camelia ( no output )
geekosaur er
m: :foo(1).WHAT.say
camelia (Pair)
geekosaur m: (foo => 1).WHAT.say 05:03
camelia (Pair)
benjikun I see 05:05
thanks for the help
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thowe Kaiepi, So I installed libdyn. Installed libuv port. Ran rakudo with the options you gave me, and I get the exact same error... 05:32
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thowe I might not be calling config opt right 05:43
hm, doesn't seem to like that I am using clang(?) I'm giving up for now 05:47
benjikun Does supernovus still come on here? 05:49
lizmat .seen supernovus 05:59
yoleaux I saw supernovus 22 Apr 2016 23:27Z in #perl6: <supernovus> Well, I'm going to have to run. Have a great day/night everyone. I hope to fix up some of my long neglected libraries at some point when I'm not completely overloaded with work! :-)
Kaiepi what error do you get thowe? 06:09
benjikun oof 06:10
2016
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jmerelo Just created the `zef` tag in StackOverflow stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/zef 07:28
Tag wiki page will be online soon, and probably very imperfect. Please help improve it. 07:29
You can also back-tag some Perl6 questions with zef.
This question is apparently the first of its kind stackoverflow.com/questions/510051...-in-matrix "I can do this pretty nicely in Perl6, how can I do it in some other language" 07:40
As in "some other language for native Perl6 speakers". I love that.
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tyil jmerelo: thanks 07:56
I wanted to tag my question with zef, but havent got enough rep to create tags
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jmerelo tyil: my pleasure. I think you get it with 1500. You'll get them in due time. 08:01
tyil yeah 08:02
I'm not too worried
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tyil I've been asking some questions lately regarding p6man, which I want to make use of in my (proposed) book 08:02
I wonder if I can alter my TPF grant proposal to include more time, many have told me 4 months won't cut it 08:03
jmerelo tyil: yep. Books always take longer than one initially intended.
tyil I've also been considering to add the use of gitlab or github to the book, as one commenter asked about 08:04
been testing out gitlab-ci with p6man
and boy is it awesome compared to travis
jmerelo tyil: that was my approach in my book: include everything you need to start to program: ssh, some command-line utilities...
tyil: but then, I don't think if that's right for a TPF grant. 08:05
tyil: I haven't tried gitlab-ci, but I'm happy with Travis...
tyil you dont need to use git or a git service to start, but they're pretty neat to use
with gitlab-ci you can specify which docker image to use, such as rakudo-star
suddenly you have an image that contains all the tools you need without manual setup 08:06
jmerelo tyil: but that's what we do in perl6/doc. There's a docker image, perl6-doccer, which we use to test.
tyil for an end-user, that sounds incredibly useful compared to having to manually set up Perl 6 in each travis build
jmerelo remembers I have to update the image to the latest perl6
tyil: you don't need to do that, actually. I mean, most people do since that's the "official" Travis image. I tried to change it, but no joy. 08:07
Either El_Che's packages or docker images would be much better for that...
tyil the official image isnt great for end users, building it takes about 7 minutes
thats a long time to wait for a project whose tests run in a couple seconds 08:08
also, perl6/doc uses github.com/perl6/doc/blob/master/u...is-test.sh to get a custom docker image
jmerelo That's why in perl6/doc we don't use (since February). We have 3 CIs set up, shippable uses rakudo packages, the two Travis use either a binary or perl6-doccer
tyil not friendly at all for end users
jmerelo tyil: That's only becasuse it's got two different CIs set up. 08:09
tyil gitlab.com/tyil/perl6-pod-to-pager...lab-ci.yml
I can add a different CI by just adding another key in the yaml file
jmerelo tyil: this one is friendly hub.docker.com/r/jjmerelo/test-perl6/
tyil the artifacts is completely optional, and just builds a zip with the sources
the docker containers are friendly, but travis is not friendly in using a different docker image 08:10
it requires menial manual labour to divert from their default images
jmerelo tyil: but you are right, gitlab approach is a bit simpler than Travis, since you can specify the image directly. In Travis you have to issue a few more commands.
tyil: can you use gitlab-ci from GitHub? 08:11
tyil I'll probably update assixt some time in the future to add a .gitlab-ci.yaml
I'm not sure if that's easily done
I've dropped Github from personal use for future projects 08:12
gitlab has been objectively superiour in almost every aspect to me
and its not owned by a company known for shitting on their users in every possible position (though this was less of an issue when I decided to go gitlab) 08:13
jmerelo tyil: I still have to take the step. Don't think it will happen any time soon. I have more than 500 repos in GitHub
tyil I dont remove the github stuff because they're established urls 08:14
but my new projects go on gitlab, and bigger projects that I still work on will probably move there for new work
it needs better perl 6/pod support though, that's one of the things I lack on gitlab 08:15
also, thanks for your answers on SO (and everyone else going around answering), I can continue on my projects again 08:16
jmerelo tyil: it's not in GitHub for the time being either...
tyil what is? 08:17
jmerelo tyil: thanks for asking :-) I mean, it helps the community to have public question and answers
tyil I'll probably be asking many more questions over the course of (at least 4 months)
jmerelo tyil: the Pod support. Your PR was reverted...
tyil ah
jmerelo tyil: so you got the grant. Congratulations.
tyil not that I know yet
jmerelo tyil: then, good luck :-) 08:18
tyil I saw something about the Pod PR, it needing another project's support as well
for which we already had a PR open as well
which was also being completely ignored
jmerelo tyil: right. The linguist one. It's there, sitting pretty.
tyil: sorry, the markdown one.
tyil I should poke [Coke] about the grant to see if he can approve some of the comments on the TPF blog (and whether a proposal may be updated once posted) 08:19
which I guess has been done right about now :p
jmerelo tyil: I don't think so. But once it's approved you can change stuff if your manager approves. 08:20
tyil ah
that sounds alright to me
jmerelo tyil: I don't know about duration. That's pretty much baked in.
tyil: but once you get, it's probably a matter of talking to your manager. As long as you don't request more money, I can probably be done. 08:21
tyil: BTW, you're going to Arnhem, right? I guess we'll meet there. 08:22
tyil yes I do
samcv will be coming along as well
jmerelo tyil: that's great :-)
tyil I even have a talk scheduled at the NLPW 08:23
jmerelo tyil: and it's Squashaton weekend, so I'll tie you all to a laptop and will assign perl6/doc issues to solve :-)
tyil but I have modules to make!
jmerelo tyil: not that weekend! It's SQUASHathon weekend! 08:24
squashable6: status
squashable6 jmerelo, Next SQUASHathon in 12 days and ≈1 hour (2018-07-07 UTC-12⌁UTC+14). See github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Mont...Squash-Day
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tyil .tell jnthn would you have time to talk to me about something around 8PM paris time today? 09:24
yoleaux tyil: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
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jmerelo Calling a vote on the style of hashes definition in the documentation: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2117#i...-399742781 09:32
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benjikun Why do some Perl6 modules get put into the Perl6 organization on GitHub? 09:41
are there any requirements for those modules or are they just put there in the first place
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jmerelo benjikun: when they are "abandoned" by their authors or simply started from the Perl 6 organization 09:53
benjikun: also, when authors become part of the Perl organization they move it there. They are sometimes modules included in the Rakudo Star release, but not always.
benjikun: baseline is, let's keep a close eye on them, since they are important. 09:54
benjikun jmerelo: Ah, thanks for the response.
jmerelo benjikun: sure :-) My pleasure
Geth doc/master: 8 commits pushed by (JJ Merelo)++ 10:03
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El_Che m 10:20
jmerelo El_Che: hi!
jmerelo goes AFK and CTS (close-to-swimmingpool) 10:43
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benjikun .seen zoffix 10:49
yoleaux I saw Zoffix 23 Jun 2018 16:02Z in #perl6: <Zoffix> geekosaur: ToddAndMargo, `'abcdef'.match(/../, :g)` is better written (and is slightly more performant) as `'abcdef'.comb: 2`
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parv is it possible to move rakudo install directory to another (e.g mv ~/x ~/y/x # & expect perl6 to work) 11:47
?
MasterDuke parv: not now. but it wouldn't be impossible to implement, and some people have done a little bit of work toward it 11:48
parv ok. thanks, MasterDuke. 11:49
AlexDaniel benjikun: there's also this organization: github.com/perl6-community-modules 11:50
benjikun: and I see that some modules are in perl6-community-modules/ and others are in perl6/
that's a good question actually… should we move some stuff to perl6-community-modules ? 11:53
Pod-To-HTML p6-sake DBIish perl6-lwp-simple perl6-pod-to-bigpage gtk-simple perl6-http-server-threaded Perl6-MIME-Base64 perl6-http-server-async form perl6-http-server WebService-HazIP 11:56
just 12 of them to move, if we decide to
parv zef's README says to install it, do "cd zef && perl6 -I. bin/zef install .". Is the second . where zef command & its lib are installed? How do I specify an alternative install directory?
AlexDaniel parv: if I'm getting it right, it is calling zef (bin/zef) to install itself (.) 11:57
benjikun AlexDaniel: I haven't seen that before, is it mentioned anywhere on perl6.org? 11:59
AlexDaniel benjikun: I don't know 12:00
benjikun: but to clarify, I think “abandoned” modules end up in perl6-community-modules
parv hmm ... I don't see any provision (in resources/*) to install elsewhere; have to relocate the files myself. 12:01
benjikun I wonder what the age distribution for users of Perl6 look like
AlexDaniel benjikun: why would that matter? 12:03
benjikun It just seems like an interesting survey question 12:04
I (perhaps wrongfully) associate "Perl," meaning Perl5, with older programmers 12:05
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AlexDaniel benjikun: I guess I'm the example of a younger programmer, possibly the youngest in the dev team (in my twenties) 12:08
benjikun AlexDaniel: I'm younger than you 12:09
AlexDaniel :) 12:10
benjikun I'm attempting to visualize Perl6's community 12:12
I would've expected more than 418 coming out of this GitHub search: github.com/search?q=repos%3A%3E1&a...mp;l=perl6 12:13
Searching for users of Perl6 with greater than 1 Repos
AlexDaniel it says that I have no perl6 repos :( 12:15
benjikun hm 12:16
Do you tag them with perl6?
AlexDaniel well, it doesn't count that one as my repo: github.com/perl6/whateverable/
and this one is tagged but has no code files: github.com/AlexDaniel/6lang-golf-cheatsheet 12:17
benjikun Hmm
AlexDaniel and the rest is not very public really
or is in perl6/ org
benjikun AlexDaniel: looking at your website, I'd guess you're into computer security? 12:18
AlexDaniel benjikun: I study Computer Systems Engineering 12:22
benjikun ah 12:23
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parv FWIW I just saw the messsage at the end of zef install which notes that it was installed in subdir of rakudo install. works-for-me. 12:32
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sarna what does a backslash do here? `method foo(\s) {...}` 12:59
araraloren_ sarna it's sigilless variable 13:05
m: my \s = 22; say s; 13:06
camelia 22
sarna araraloren_: when should I use them?
El_Che a constant?
sarna oh, makes sense 13:07
don't you uppercase all the constants?
araraloren_ docs.perl6.org/language/variables#...riables%29
El_Che (see the question mark :) )
sarna thinks harder
El_Che sarna: I don't
sarna: It looks like C cargo culting
araraloren_ hmm, like constant
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sarna El_Che: :^) alright 13:08
I've never liked that convention anyway
araraloren_ If I declare constant with `constant`, I will uppercase that things 13:10
m: constant PI = 3.14; say PI;
camelia 3.14
araraloren_ but with siglless variable, it's a special kind variable, IMO 13:11
sarna is `constant c = 1` any different from `my \c := 1`? 13:12
araraloren_ IDK 13:13
El_Che they are both immutable
scoping probably?
sarna do constants get any special treatment? constant constants
ah 13:14
araraloren_ lifetime difference ?
El_Che to be sure, do
m: constant \c = 1
camelia ( no output )
El_Che :)
araraloren_ m: constant a = 20; BEGIN say a;
camelia 20
sarna m: constant \c := 1
camelia ( no output )
sarna just to be sure
:D
araraloren_ m: my \a = 20; BEGIN say a;
camelia (Mu)
El_Che m: constant \c = 1; c = 2
camelia Cannot modify an immutable Int (1)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
AlexDaniel sigilless variables are not exactly constants
El_Che it's about the container, isn't? 13:15
sarna araraloren_: what's this magic BEGIN thing?
araraloren_ so, constant is available in BEGIN phrase
Phasers
docs.perl6.org/language/phasers
sarna oh oki, I'll read about it 13:16
araraloren_ It's some special block
AlexDaniel it's somewhat similar to “val” in scala, and those are typically not uppercased as far as I know
or val in Java with lombok
sarna yeah, or let in Rust (without mut) 13:17
araraloren_ haha, but Rust can define the variable more than once
I hate this design
sarna I mean, you can let twice
you can't `let x = 2; x = 3;` 13:18
araraloren_ yeah, I know 13:19
sarna is it good practice to use sigilless for immutable variables?
I kinda like sigils
El_Che sigils put emphasis on the container, imho 13:20
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sarna ohh 13:24
AlexDaniel sarna: well, you decide. I don't see code like this very often, but IIRC TimToady uses (or at least used) it a lot 13:26
araraloren_ I am not using that often too :) 13:27
sarna I'm used to following the rules, I feel lost if I have to choose '^ ^
araraloren_ hmm, you don't have to choose, just use what you like 13:28
AlexDaniel
.oO( so what do I like? )
 13:29
El_Che pistacchio is a safe bet 13:30
AlexDaniel googles “Pistachio nut allergy” 13:31
sarna pistachios are so expensive though
mst sarna: I've been enjoying doing 'my $x := 2;' 13:32
sarna with sigils I know if it's a collection or a scalar 13:33
and that was my biggest problem with other dynamic languages
hmm, is it a string? a list of strings? a nested list?
mst the difference between "for x in str:" and "for x in str,:" in python has always been troubling to me. 13:34
sarna and then I'd get a "can't index an integer" at runtime :X
El_Che on lang with strong typing it's less of a problem (or not at all)
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araraloren_ but you don't know what $x is in Perl6 too. I think 13:36
sarna I had the most problems with it in Clojure, which is strongly typed
El_Che sarna: really? That kind of problem is catched at compile time, e.g. in go 13:37
sarna (I (think [I (might (have #(gotten [lost (in [the (parens [though])])])))]))
El_Che: runtime for Clojure
pmurias AlexDaniel: the demographics of Perl 6 programmers are sort of interesting
sarna it's strongly typed, but dynamic
El_Che sarna: is sounds as "it is, but not really" 13:38
:)
sarna El_Che: yeah :)
it'll complain about types, at runtime
JS generally won't 13:39
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El_Che pmurias: go on? 13:42
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pmurias El_Che: I don't know what they are, I'm just interested in knowing them ;) 13:43
El_Che hehe
yes
:)
pmurias benjikun: one interesting thing to measure about the Perl 6 community is what languages are the people coming in 13:44
El_Che or the pessismist view: going :) 13:45
and which langs they use next to perl6
sarna pmurias: is there any perl6 survey? 13:46
El_Che there a a generic perl one, but it was flawed 13:47
AlexDaniel 5lawed
benjikun The perl one only mentions perl6 in one question sadly
sarna :(
benjikun pmurias: Would be nice if we could get more information on these kinds of things
how about we make a Perl6 survey?
sarna I'm in 13:48
benjikun I could whip up a google form
sarna how to be a successful language in 2018:
1. have a cute mascot (go, rust)
2. conduct a survey
we have a mascot already
benjikun we're halfway there 13:49
sarna I think the survey is the missing piece
yeah
El_Che find a niche?
sarna have you seen better glue?
AlexDaniel benjikun: well, go for it? Perhaps come here with a list of questions/answers for some feedback before actually setting up a survey, I'm sure there will be some nice suggestions 13:50
sarna benjikun: you can check out Clojure's and Rust's surveys, they're pretty good 13:51
benjikun AlexDaniel sarna: Will do
AlexDaniel benjikun++
El_Che AlexDaniel: where are you based, btw? 13:55
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AlexDaniel El_Che: Estonia 14:01
El_Che the North! 14:02
:)
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benjikun docs.google.com/forms/d/19qSBpGWWc...sp=sharing 14:05
Here's what I have so far
anyone can drop in and make any changes / add new questions 14:06
sarna_ benjikun: maybe favourite/least favourite perl6 features?
benjikun hmm, yeah
What would you put for options?
sarna_ I'd just let people write it themselves 14:07
AlexDaniel benjikun: I'd recommend listing Spacemacs and Emacs separately
sarna_ and maybe "most wanted feature"
AlexDaniel benjikun: because a lot of spacemacs users are using it with vim keybinging so it's not exactly Emacs
benjikun AlexDaniel: will do
sarna_: sounds good 14:08
AlexDaniel benjikun: btw there's a list of editors and their perl6 support, maybe you'd want to add something from it: github.com/perl6/user-experience/issues/19 14:09
benjikun ah, good idea 14:10
sarna_ benjikun: "if you have used zef, do you like it?" 14:11
benjikun: "do you use any authoring tools (eg mi6)?"
also maybe "do you use perl6 at work" but I don't think we'd get above 5% on that 14:12
AlexDaniel benjikun: “how did you install perl 6?” – Distribution packages (e.g. `apt install perl6`), – Rakudo Star, – Monthly Rakudo release, – rakudobrew
sarna_ benjikun: maybe "do you plan to try to use perl6 at work?"
timotimo maybe make a distinction between "officially" and "unofficially" 14:13
i.e. someone who writes ten one-liners a day to make their work more efficient would say "unofficially", but someone who develops a perl6 app/service for a client would say "officially"
sarna_ benjikun: "what areas do you work in?"
I don't know if all answers would qualify blog.rust-lang.org/images/2016-06-..._areas.png 14:14
AlexDaniel benjikun: maybe something like: “Have you used Perl 6 in school or university?” – Yes, as suggested by course materials; – Yes, I chose to use it myself; – I study but had no chance to use it; – I'm not studying
sarna_ also, I'd include one field where people would just say what they'd like to add themselves
AlexDaniel although I'd expect there are very few people who'd be able to give a useful answer to that
sarna_ AlexDaniel: I don't think any universities use perl6 (unless they allow any language and you just write perl6) 14:15
my university will probably be like this and I'm planning on sneaking some perl6 into my projects :^) 14:16
AlexDaniel sarna_: I've used it very successfully for a compilers/parsers course
sarna_: and a little bit of stuff for research that I did here was in perl 6
sarna_ AlexDaniel: really? whoa, I slurp my words back then 14:17
AlexDaniel sarna_: well, I chose to use it myself, but it was very welcome :)
sarna_ AlexDaniel: ah, makes sense :) 14:18
AlexDaniel also there's a chance I'd give a “guest” lecture about perl 6 next year for that same course
sarna_ oo, good luck!
benjikun sarna_: I'm not sure about what else to add to "What do you utilize Perl6 for?" 14:19
it was my offshoot of your idea
I have web development, general scripting, data science ... 14:20
sarna_ benjikun: have you seen this image I sent?
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benjikun yeah, I see it 14:21
some don't apply
sarna_ yeah, definitely
I'd maybe add compilers/parsers
benjikun mk
sarna_ text processing?
benjikun some of these are subsets of others 14:22
web scraping could be considered text processing, sorta
sarna_ yup
hankache hello #perl6
yoleaux 19 Jun 2018 14:11Z <lizmat> hankache: I've unslipped a c in the weekly
sarna_ o/
hankache .tell lizmat: Thanks a lot
yoleaux hankache: What kind of a name is "lizmat:"?!
sarna_ :D 14:23
hankache hi sarna_
seen lizmat
.seen lizmat 14:24
yoleaux I saw lizmat 14:23Z in #perl6-dev: <lizmat> mostly mentioned in comments
hankache .tell lizmat Thanks a lot
yoleaux hankache: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
lizmat hankache: you're welcome
yoleaux 14:24Z <hankache> lizmat: Thanks a lot
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AlexDaniel benjikun: well, I just realized I can edit it myself, haha 14:28
benjikun: sorry for being dumb :) 14:29
benjikun no problem, heh
What answer choices should I put for "Where did you find out about Perl6, originally?" 14:32
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benjikun I'm thinking blogs, hackernews, reddit, unsure 14:33
sarna_ this post - www.evanmiller.org/why-im-learning-perl-6.html 14:37
benjikun lol, it does seem pretty popular, doesn't it 14:38
3rd result in google
sarna_ it's a good post :)
benjikun Should we include a controversial question about whether or not they find the name "Perl6" confusing 14:40
I've heard a considerable amount of that
sarna_ I think we should 14:42
benjikun alright, I added it 14:45
AlexDaniel “What is your primary spoken language?” wow that's a hard one
benjikun I thought it would be useful for indicating if we need to translate more perl6 things to more languages that are underrepresented 14:47
ooh 14:48
we could make a question about rating documentation 14:49
AlexDaniel I thought about that, yeah
benjikun added 14:52
sarna_ hmm, I think we'd need something akin to the rust book
a good english resource
and then translate this
benjikun I'd say `perl6intro.com` is our most-translated newcomer resource 14:54
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El_Che primary language is very region dependent 14:55
I think most duth speakers switch to english resources right away
sarna_ benjikun: it's not as thorough as the rust book
El_Che dutch
AlexDaniel yeah maybe that question is not needed
sarna_ same for any scandinavian language
benjikun hm 14:56
El_Che while for bigger language groups (like spanish or frnch), native doc would be more useful
araraloren_ yeah, for me I perfer EN version
El_Che "Would you prefer the documentation in your native language instead of English? Yes -> which 14:57
sarna_ El_Che++ 14:58
benjikun El_Che: good idea
sarna_ doesn't know how ++s work
benjikun Alright, I've remade that question 15:01
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AlexDaniel benjikun: hmm, what about “what is the version of your currently installed rakudo?” 15:21
or something like that
benjikun yeah, I think that could be useful for sure
I dig it
AlexDaniel huggable: deb
huggable AlexDaniel, Alpine, CentOS, Debian, Fedora, OpenSUSE and Ubuntu Rakudo packages: github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg#rakudo-pkg
El_Che "how often do you upgrade Rakudo?" Monthly, quaterly, yearly of less
timotimo maybe also "how did you install your rakudo"
benjikun timotimo: We've got that 15:22
El_Che What is the source of your rakudo "self compiled", "rakudo star", "rakudo-pkg", homebrew, "provided by the distribution", other ...
AlexDaniel El_Che: it's already there 15:23
timotimo good
El_Che ok
benjikun what versions of rakudo should we include in that question AlexDaniel? 15:24
timotimo does your rakudo run on parrot?
AlexDaniel benjikun: that's the issue :)
benjikun hmm
timotimo: lol 15:25
AlexDaniel benjikun: the list of rakudo stars is here: rakudo.org/files/star
timotimo i think it hasn't been that long since the last time someone came in here asking for help with a parrotkudo
AlexDaniel benjikun: and it goes back to 2017.07, but I think we can say “older than 2016.01”
benjikun AlexDaniel: that sounds good to me 15:26
AlexDaniel timotimo: that's like debian wheezy
benjikun I'll add it 15:27
timotimo maybe also some version of ubuntu
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timotimo maybe a centos? 15:27
AlexDaniel timotimo: wheezy – “from 26th April 2016 to 31st May 2018”
timotimo: so in May of this year it was legitimately possible to come and ask about rakudo 2012.01 15:28
timotimo so barely past its end of life
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timotimo btw, we don't really have something for "long term support" of rakudo versions yet; when do we want to start with that? 15:29
benjikun how hard would it be
timotimo depends on how much work we want to put into it 15:30
we might have to think about every commit whether it should go into an LTS, too
AlexDaniel well, I guess we've been getting away without it because the language is still v6.c
it's not the kind of LTS most expect and need, but it's better than nothing :)
timotimo and commits that build on previous commits that didn't make it into the LTS are going to be double work
benjikun hmm
timotimo i haven't thought about it much, but that's how i reckon it would look 15:31
AlexDaniel “Do you have a need for a proper LTS (long term support) version of rakudo?” 15:32
timotimo oh, yes, good point
benjikun yeah, that sounds good to throw in there
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timotimo maybe add more answers than yes and no, like one that basically means "yes, but only because i don't know about use v6.c yet" 15:33
AlexDaniel haha that sounds a bit wrong :D 15:35
timotimo i think it'd help us figure out if our language versioning is useful to people like that, but i'm not sure
thowe Kaiepi, error is here: gist.github.com/thowe/514c09e88007...ac6da3999f 15:36
AlexDaniel benjikun: see also some comments here: colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log...-06-24#l84
benjikun ah, will do, thanks
Kaiepi thowe: try using egcc instead of clang 15:38
thowe ok, i'll have to install 15:39
Kaiepi, trying... what time zone are you in? 15:42
Kaiepi GMT-3 15:43
thowe so, east coast... you were up late last night :)
Kaiepi yep ;) 15:44
thowe tryna rebuild this old laptop so I can play with a few things while on small vacation. wanna build somethin in Perl6 to feed Influxdb... 15:45
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pmurias timotimo: what commits do you expect to go into a LTS version? 15:49
timotimo things related to security, surely 15:51
El_Che lizmat: repeat the questions!
:)
timotimo other than that i have no clue 15:52
El_Che LTS is something that a distro will stabilize on 15:53
I don't see the point for a compiler
the c/d/... version is how perl6 does lts 15:54
timotimo OK 15:55
El_Che timotimo: of course, in my humble opinion
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tobs I'm kinda bothered by this: github.com/perlpilot/p6-File-Temp/issues/27 15:57
AlexDaniel El_Che: I feel the same way, but I'm not so sure… debian comes up with a release about every two years
tobs What I gather is that DESTROY shouldn't be used to clean up external resources, but the logs I read were quite dated. Was something done in the meantime to fix that particular case there?
AlexDaniel El_Che: in these two years rakudo can diverge so much that applying security patches can possibly be a big trouble 15:58
El_Che: and then every distro maintainer has to struggle with it in their own way
El_Che AlexDaniel: that's the reason that a lot of projects offer packages for debian 15:59
AlexDaniel El_Che: what do you mean?
El_Che that debian will stick with a very old release on stable and backport the aboslute minimum 16:00
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El_Che and that people running debian stable will use an alternative source (mostly upstream) for soft that require newer versions 16:00
(new openjdk, etc) 16:01
it's possible that debian stays on LTS -1
things like rhel and centos will do tha
t
so'll you end up with lts -3 or -4
AlexDaniel tobs: not in rakudo, I don't think 16:02
tobs: I wonder if github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-Temp-Path has the same issue 16:03
tobs AlexDaniel: thanks. I imagine most of the time (free'ing C library memory, e.g.) it's not a problem because the only time when DESTROY is missed is when the process exits anyway, but for external files it's a bother. 16:04
I'll look into it 16:05
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thowe Kaiepi, it builds now with egcc. 16:10
Tideflat In theory, could Perl 6 be used to develop Android Apps because rakudo can compile to jvm? 16:11
timotimo in theory, yes
tadzik it dalvik's bytecode compatible with jvm's though? 16:12
timotimo oh!
tadzik it's not actually jvm on android
timotimo you're right, we do require invokedynamic and i think android's java didn't have that last time i looked
tadzik oh right
I recall that being a blocker 16:13
Tideflat thank you
pmurias running the js backend on android with some effort should be possible 16:14
(the js backend is still far from production ready tho)
timotimo won't we run into trouble because android wants to manage the lifecycles of lots of different objects?
i'm not entirely sure how all of that works, but doesn't it kill off parts of your data when your app has been deemed unnecessary? 16:15
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timotimo anyway, there's always the NDK 16:16
let java be your HTML
tadzik :>
timotimo finally, it pays off that java called themselves that because of the success of JavaScript, even though they are nothing alike
benjikun timotimo: How hard would it be to make it possible to use Perl6 for mobile development at our current stage, anyway? 16:17
Would be interesting
timotimo i guess it depends entirely on how you want to speak to the android APIs 16:18
tadzik (and if you want your mobile platform to be android :))
timotimo in rakudo-jvm you can use classes to implement interfaces, for example
and instantiate classes from the "java world" and such
tadzik: openmoko isn't right for everyone ;)
tadzik timotimo: :) I'm a happy sailfish user myself 16:19
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Zoffix benjikun: ? did you want something? 16:19
(re .seen)
timotimo that's what i suspected, but i forgot and didn't want to assume
tadzik I do make quite some use of the android compat
AlexDaniel benjikun: “Have you written any modules for the Perl 6 ecosystem?” is this question needed? I mean, we can already gather these stats from the ecosystem
benjikun Zoffix: The latest post on rakudo.party has 2019 for the year
timotimo what device are you on? 16:20
benjikun AlexDaniel: unsure, I didn't add it
tadzik timotimo: Sony Xperia X
jmerelo Just a reminder we have a straw poll going on how best to prescribe hash declaration in the documentation github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2117#i...-399742781
AlexDaniel Zoffix: maybe you'd have some ideas for docs.google.com/forms/d/19qSBpGWWc...sp=sharing
Zoffix benjikun: thanks, fixed. Wouldn't want people to know that I'm from the future... 16:21
benjikun ^
Zoffix: ha
tobs AlexDaniel: I added that question but I wouldn't say it's needed. 16:22
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jmerelo AlexDaniel: we can actually edit the form. Is that what you want? 16:23
AlexDaniel: I would add "Perl conference" to the first question, and eliminate "Academic course suggestion"
Zoffix AlexDaniel: this question is kinda vague "How many private projects have you written in Perl 6? (unpublished projects)"... What's a "project"? Are throw-away scripts with a dozen lines count?
Maybe better to split it up into "do you use one liners a lot", "how many small programs <100 lines of code you wrote" "how many large > 100lines of code" 16:24
Or just clarify what a "project" is
tobs AlexDaniel: thought it was interesting in conjunction with the amount of time and frequency spent with Perl 6 16:25
benjikun jmerelo: Yeah, feel free to edit questions as you see fit, it's open to anyone
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jmerelo benjikun: maybe eliminate the question about zef. I mean, there's no other choice. 16:27
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jmerelo benjikun: some of them that could be gathered from rakudo.org download statistics might be better suppressed. There are also github statistics that can be used (although they just include the last week) 16:28
AlexDaniel jmerelo: why eliminate it, sounds ok 16:29
timotimo i somewhat often just -I my modules, but that only works well with modules that don't have resources i think?
jmerelo AlexDaniel: the whole survey is kind of longish. And I don't see what kind of information we can get from that. zef must be used by basically everyone, and if they don't like it, well... 16:30
AlexDaniel: Surveys: the shorter, the better. 16:31
benjikun jmerelo: True, but they can skip any question if they'd like 16:33
Zoffix AlexDaniel: the answer for "Do you use Perl 6 at work?" confuse me. What does "unofficially" mean in that context? I'm responsible for choosing the tech we use and for some things I chose Perl 6. Is that "officially" or "unofficially"?
AlexDaniel benjikun: ↑ :)
timotimo wasn't that my (bad) suggestion? ;) 16:34
AlexDaniel maybe something like “internally, but not for the projects we ship” was meant
Zoffix that's just moves the confusion to the word "ship". We don't sell any software at work, but is pushing something we wrote for users to use considering "shipping"? 16:35
benjikun What AlexDaniel said, for example, a system administrator using Perl6 without directly being paid with the USE of Perl6 in mind
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benjikun perhaps that wording is unnecessary, though 16:35
I'm not sure
Zoffix I guess the point of confusions is this: some people who use Perl 6 at work aren't necessarily working in programming companies using standard organizational structures (my job title is Multi-Media Designer, for instance.... :/)
benjikun Fair enough 16:36
Zoffix Hm, "Yes, and we sell some software written in Perl 6", "Yes, for the software used by the company" 16:37
So Edument people would choose the first one, and I would choose the second one
benjikun that sounds like a fair change to me
perhaps "Yes, internally" would be better for the second option 16:38
or maybe that could lead to confusion
Zoffix The "Would you prefer the documentation in your native language instead of English? What is your native language?" could be shortened to just "Would you prefer the documentation in a different language instead of English?" 16:40
I want it in French, but it isn't my native language.
:)
benjikun Yeah, the first wording does sound bulky, changing it
El_Che mmm
you'll get different answers 16:41
I would love more spanish/french/dutch doc
but I would never use them
benjikun lol
El_Che do you want to know what people find lacking in their own perl6 quest or if they are empathetic to other people :)
benjikun former 16:42
although perhaps that could give us a stronger metric on the friendliness of our community (jokes)
Zoffix El_Che: but the question is **you prefer** and **instead of English** meaning you'd rather read the documentation in some other language
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jmerelo StackOverflow questions per month data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflo...ions#graph We're kind of reaching a new plateau, but we apparently need people writing books to populate SO 16:44
Zoffix The "Have you used Perl 6 in school or university?" should probably be "Do you use Perl 6 in school or university?" and the "I'm not studying" option moved to be the first answer
benjikun Zoffix: done 16:45
Zoffix Thanks.
Zoffix &
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benjikun jmerelo: good catch, that could be pretty importance for people's first steps experience 16:49
jmerelo benjikun: well, people start asking questions in SO when they're writing a book, apparently :-) Anyway, we need to expand the community so books are very welcome, hanging out in dev places too. 16:50
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benjikun Are we ever going to include Linenoise by default for arrow key usage and whatnot in the REPL? 16:56
jmerelo: I saw you in the issue mentioning that
I think that arrow keys working are more important than tab completion at the moment 16:57
jmerelo benjikun: Ah, OK. That's for sure. I guess that will depend on the Rakudo Star bundler. I don't know who's going to be the next one... It would be good, you're right. 16:58
benjikun I see, thanks for the response :)
jmerelo benjikun: sure :-) Thanks for doing the survey. It will be great to know more about the community. 17:02
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benjikun of course 17:05
speaking of the survey, how satisfied are we with it
should we leave it up for suggestions longer or start sharing it for use?
tyil jnthn: ping~ 17:06
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jmerelo benjikun: just release it. 17:07
benjikun Alrighty, here's the link: goo.gl/forms/JXtrWDYFrV9ENW6x2 17:08
I'll post it on the perl6 subreddit
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AlexDaniel benjikun: there's “Option 8” 17:11
benjikun oof
will remove
done
jmerelo benjikun: can you share the spreadsheet with answers once they are coming?
benjikun jmerelo: absolutely
jmerelo I'll spread it in Twitter
benjikun: thanks.
AlexDaniel benjikun: “Can you type/use non-ascii characters” has to be a multichoice
because very often it's a combination of more than one method 17:12
benjikun AlexDaniel: is it not?
do you mean checkboxes
AlexDaniel oh, ye
benjikun done
jmerelo benjikun: shared in Twitter twitter.com/jjmerelo/status/1010934030143897600 17:14
AlexDaniel benjikun: I think “Do you use Perl 6 in school or university?” should be rephrased a bit
benjikun: imagine if I graduated a month ago, but used nothing but perl 6, what would I answer?
timotimo will we seek to involve mailing-list-only community members in the design process soon?
benjikun AlexDaniel: how about "Have you used Perl 6 in an academic course?" 17:15
no longer indicating present tense
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AlexDaniel jmerelo: ↑ what's the right way to phrase it? 17:15
jmerelo: “have you used perl 6 in academia?” or something? 17:16
jmerelo benjikun, AlexDaniel: I would simply say "in academia", since you include research in the answer.
AlexDaniel: He. I was writing that answer...
timotimo jmerelo: you're already publicising the form itself?
jmerelo timotimo: right
benjikun AlexDaniel: swapped the phrasing for "for academia" 17:17
jmerelo benjikun++
AlexDaniel benjikun: ok, now what if I graduated 20 years ago, what would be the answer?
timotimo so when we edit the form, what happens to answers that were made before an edit?
benjikun timotimo: They are still saved, google forms does that
AlexDaniel benjikun: and let's say never used it, for obvious reasons 17:18
timotimo OK
jmerelo timotimo: nothing really. If it's changed, it will become one of a kind...
benjikun AlexDaniel: I see where you're coming from
raschipi Text is white in white background for me, let me try changing browser theme 17:19
Still the same 17:20
AlexDaniel IMO it's a good question that shows the state of perl 6 from a different perspective, and will allow us to evaluate the progress as we go
but we have to phrase it properly otherwise it's a bit useless
benjikun AlexDaniel: I swapped the last answer choice in favor of "I've had no chance of using Perl 6 in academia"
still seems worded a bit messily
AlexDaniel benjikun: now “I'm not studying” vs “I've had no chance of using Perl 6 in academia” ? 17:21
benjikun raschipi: Not sure why that's happening, what browser(s) are you using?
AlexDaniel: what if we just remove "I'm not studying" 17:22
AlexDaniel jmerelo: ↑ ?
jmerelo AlexDaniel: OK to remove that. 17:23
benjikun there we go
raschipi Fixed, it was the GNOME dark theme that was messing it up.
benjikun Alright, now we wait 17:24
I'm excited to see the answers to some of these
jmerelo benjikun: Has anybody posted it to the Perl 6 Facebook group? 17:25
benjikun jmerelo: Don't think so, I don't have a facebook
jmerelo benjikun: OK, will do.
AlexDaniel benjikun: maybe “(unpublished projects, not including one-liners)”
or hmm I don't know 17:26
no, scratch that
jmerelo As a side note, there were more perl6 than perl5 questions in StackOverflow in the last 24 hours.
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benjikun jmerelo: that's strange 17:26
jmerelo Usual Perl amount is ~10 a day, usual Perl6 amount 2 going on 1 lately a day, so one order of magnitude. But there are bumps for Perl6, and dips for Perl5, so there you go. 17:27
AlexDaniel benjikun: it's currently “older than 2016.01” but let's change it to “older than 2015.01” 17:28
jmerelo It's not the first time it's happened, but obviously it does not happen often. And still the monthly average is way different. It's not only Perl6's merit, Perl questions seem to be going down lately...
benjikun AlexDaniel: will do
timotimo we could have a 2d graph where x is "length of window" and y is "time offset into the past" and have each pixel's color be "which perl had more questions in this window"
AlexDaniel benjikun: 2016.01 was the first star release to support v6.c, bet first rakudo with v6.c support was 2015.12
but*
benjikun: so also please do add 2015.12 17:29
jmerelo timotimo: er. Way over my pay grade. I basically have to ask in StackOverflow every time I make a change...
benjikun done
jmerelo timotimo: but anyway, the answer now is, almost every single day, Perl. Perl6 had a streak of 3-4 days without a question, perl had like 40 in the same period. 17:30
That's why this kind of thing is unusual.
AlexDaniel benjikun, jmerelo: ok, getting back to the academia question… 17:31
let's say I studied one year ago, and some courses said “use any language you want”, but I didn't choose perl 6
I had a chance, but I didn't
benjikun l o l
timotimo that's fair
benjikun How should we word it to include that?
jmerelo AlexDaniel: that's probably the case for everyone. I don't know of any academic course including Perl 6. Mine on cloud computing included a example of a Docker container with Perl 6 17:32
benjikun we could just change it to "I haven't used Perl6 in academia"
AlexDaniel but then we're getting back to the problem with those who were in academia tens of years ago
and obviously didn't use it
jmerelo AlexDaniel, benjikun: that's probably the right way to go. Something like "Yep, I've used it in academia (for research)" and "Yep, I've used it for teaching" 17:33
AlexDaniel benjikun: o yea please include “for teaching”
benjikun will do
jmerelo Or simply "Yes, I've used it in academia" and "Nope, I haven't". Yeses are going to be very few anyway.
AlexDaniel maybe we'll get 0 this time, but I'm pretty close to making it 1 :)
benjikun alright, done 17:34
AlexDaniel or, thinking about it, jmerelo is probably 1 already :)
El_Che I have used Perl 6 under the covers (to find matches in text, find frequencies and stuff like that). But I haven"t release it to other people. In fact I gave Literature people Go binaries as I didn't have the time to explain dynamic languages to them
jmerelo AlexDaniel: way to go! :-)
El_Che so it's a tricky question
jmerelo El_Che: so maybe a simple "yes"/"no" question is enough, without going into details... 17:35
AlexDaniel jmerelo: context: colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log...06-24#l440
jmerelo AlexDaniel: great! Congrats :-)
AlexDaniel I still don't like the “Nope, I haven't” answer… 17:36
benjikun AlexDaniel: what do you want for it to be?
could we send out a tweet on @p6lert regarding the survey? 17:37
AlexDaniel no
alerts are for potentially critical and urgent issues 17:38
El_Che there the regular perl6 twitter for that
jmerelo AlexDaniel: We URGENTLY need to know the opinion of the Perl6 developers!!! 17:39
AlexDaniel also it's down
jmerelo Also: vote here github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2117#i...-399742781 about hashes and how to talk about them in the docs.
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b2gills jmerelo: You haven't been on StackOverflow long. I remember back when there was something like one Perl 5 question every couple days. 17:40
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AlexDaniel benjikun: maybe additional “I had no chance of using it (e.g. I studied before the first stable language release)” 17:41
I don't know…
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jmerelo b2gills: Well, I've kinda-been, only not very active until now. When was that? 17:41
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AlexDaniel jmerelo: halp! I don't know how to phrase that! 17:42
jmerelo b2gills: and anyway, would you say it's going slightly down lately?
b2gills Well, I am one of the few people who was in the Private beta
user id #1337
s/few people/few Perl people/ 17:43
jmerelo b2gills: that's one cool user id, as in 1337 hax0r
AlexDaniel benjikun: “No, I have studied recently/am studying now and I haven't used Perl 6”, “No, I'm not in academia”
jmerelo: ↑ does that make any sense?
benjikun "No, but I have studied recently" 17:44
"No, and I'm not in academia"
jmerelo AlexDaniel: Really, I don't think including excuses for people not using it will gather any amount of responses. Yes and no are quite enough.
AlexDaniel jmerelo: but just “yes” is meaningless without the details that we have now 17:45
jmerelo I mean, academia is all kind of things, maybe including MOOCs and somesuch.
AlexDaniel jmerelo: and just “no” will result in people saying “hey look, there's no perl 6 in academia” even if 90%+ of responders were never in academia after 2015.12 17:46
jmerelo AlexDaniel: we can cross that "yes" with other responses if needed. And I don't think there will be so many after all.
AlexDaniel: You wouldn't fare well as a political consultant. One thing is the answer to a poll, another how you spin it.
AlexDaniel :) 17:47
jmerelo I guess this is mostly for us. If we see there's not much use in academia, well, let's try to encourage that. If there's more than expected, let's try to help that with class material and stuff.
benjikun That sounds good to me ^ 17:48
jmerelo AlexDaniel: no big deal, really.
benjikun I'm not sure how we could encourage it, but I'm all for it
jmerelo benjikun: well, I just submitted a (hidden) perl 6 talk to a Google Developer Group devfest that is going to take place at my university next November. So there¡s that 17:49
benjikun The same for things like listing "Perl 6" as a permissible language on hackathon websites
jmerelo benjikun: I'll also ask my university library to buy a few copies of Learning Perl 6 as soon as it comes out.
benjikun: I mean, there's a lot of stuff that can be done.
benjikun jmerelo: That's sweet 17:50
jmerelo benjikun: BTW, DrForr is grateful in Twitter for having mentioned Perl6::Tidy
benjikun :) 17:51
AlexDaniel :) 17:53
actually the current state of the academia question is fine 17:55
maybe not that precise, but it should be clear enough for most people
maybe I'd change “for myself” to “by myself”
and “Yes, I give courses and I've used it for teaching”, or something like that
benjikun Updated with your suggestions 17:56
I think it sounds pretty reasonable now
AlexDaniel jmerelo: ok now there's this old professor who's in academia for tens of years but haven't studied recently 17:57
OK
can we just have Other… field??
that'd solve everything
jmerelo AlexDaniel: hey, old professors study all the time :-)
AlexDaniel jmerelo: hey speak for yourself alright
:)
jmerelo AlexDaniel: yep, that's sad, but true.
AlexDaniel benjikun: so yeah, just add “Other…” and we can move on with our lives :) 17:58
benjikun done
jmerelo AlexDaniel: also, I take offense at being called "old". But at least you don't call me "ancient" :-)
... or obsolete
benjikun are you a professor jmerelo?
jmerelo benjikun: right, full professor since 2009 17:59
jmerelo shows credential directorio.ugr.es/static/PersonalUG...db08bc4d97
benjikun that's nice, what classes do you teach?
17:59 zakharyas left
jmerelo benjikun: cloud computing at undergrad and master's level, mainly. 17:59
18:00 zakharyas joined
benjikun ah, I see 18:00
jmerelo benjikun: jj.github.io/IV and jj.github.io/CC
benjikun: and I use Perl for pre-grading assignments in a continuous integration environment :-)
benjikun sounds like the right kind of teacher :) 18:01
jmerelo benjikun: maybe Perl 6 next year, but for the time being, the Perl scripts work pretty well.
AlexDaniel these materials are really great except that I can't read them :)
benjikun same, ha
jmerelo AlexDaniel: They're in this barbarian language called Spanish :-)
Yep, we don't have courses in any other language in our school, I'm afraid. 18:02
benjikun: how are answers coming up?
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benjikun jmerelo: 13 responses so far 18:03
docs.google.com/forms/d/19qSBpGWWc...#responses
jmerelo benjikun: not bad, but we'll have to keep posting it here, in Twitter, Facebook, and the rest of the channels...
benjikun you can view all of them in charts at that link
jmerelo benjikun: also perl6-user mailing list. Do you subscribe to that one?
thundergnat Hmm. Just looking the the Perl 6 user survey; "Have you written any modules for the Perl 6 ecosystem?" I actually have released exactly 5 public modules... should I pick 1-5 or 5-10? (decisions decisions...) :-) 18:04
benjikun jmerelo: Yeah, I do
AlexDaniel benjikun: is it safe to share that link? what if others edit stuff?
18:04 lizmat left
jmerelo benjikun: just closed up :-) Thanks. 18:05
benjikun: can you send it there?
AlexDaniel benjikun: aw crap academia question needs to be with checkboxes I think…
benjikun thundergnat: Thanks for the catch, I fixed it
AlexDaniel: done 18:06
thundergnat benjikun: Also 6-10 and 10-20. 18:07
jmerelo benjikun: very interesting answers :-)
AlexDaniel do we need “Have you ever contributed to perl 6 development?” to differentiate between devs and users?
or maybe next time?
benjikun AlexDaniel: if you'd like, I can turn off the link sharing
jmerelo And some people has not used zef. Interesting...
benjikun I'm not sure if anyone in here would mess with us
jmerelo benjikun: you can share it only for viewing, not editing.
AlexDaniel benjikun: this channel is publicly logged, the link can be picked up by spam bots if there are any
benjikun jmerelo: I thought so too, but I don't see the option now that I look under "Link sharing" 18:08
jmerelo benjikun: maybe include docker containers in "how did you install Perl 6"?
MasterDuke jmerelo: fwiw, i don't really use zef. i don't use many modules, so i just have moritz++'s perl6-all-modules checked out and -I anything i need
benjikun jmerelo: will do 18:09
jmerelo benjikun: maybe you can just unpublish it and then share the resulting spreadsheet read-only?
AlexDaniel 18.8% people haven't used zef. Amazing
benjikun jmerelo: Done, will do 18:10
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wi...d=23100692
jmerelo benjikun: OK, that's perfect. Thanks. 18:11
benjikun :)
later on, I'll take a screenshot of the charts and or make new charts if you'd like (for viewing pleasure)
jmerelo benjikun: I've requested permission anyway so that I can see the response summary too, if you don't mind.
18:11 raschipi joined 18:13 benjikun2 joined
benjikun2 jmerelo: granted permission 18:13
jmerelo benjikun2: thanks!
benjikun2 sorry about disconnecting frequently, internet problems currently
raschipi AlexDaniel: Can you check the relation between n using zef and intalling from distro packages? 18:14
not having used*
AlexDaniel benjikun2: ↑
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benjikun2 raschipi: Out of the three people that chose "I haven't used it" for the zef question, one chose "Distribution packages", one chose "I've never installed perl6", and one chose "Rakudobrew" for the installation question. 18:17
jmerelo benjikun2, benjikun: It's a great resource to know about the community, and many answers are kinda surprising. When we reach ~100, I'll try and do some analysis, including what raschipi wants.
benjikun2 it'll be nicer once we get a flow of more answers, for sure
AlexDaniel yeah
benjikun2++
jmerelo: fwiw the unicode question is my doing, and I'm fairly confident no one will answer “Other…” :) 18:23
I don't know any other way to input unicode characters
please let me know if there's something else, I'd love to hear it 18:24
jmerelo: fwiw maybe someone can use that list to extend unicode_entry page
benjikun2 You could manually type out the unicode ID for each special character you use, lol 18:25
AlexDaniel benjikun2: that's listed as “alt codes”
benjikun2 oh, jeez
18:26 benjikun2 is now known as benjikun
buggable New CPAN upload: Dist-Helper-0.20.0.tar.gz by TYIL modules.perl6.org/dist/Dist::Helper:cpan:TYIL 18:26
jmerelo AlexDaniel: right, I hadn't thought about that... 18:29
AlexDaniel benjikun: uh, ok more corrections :) 18:35
benjikun: would you consider perl 6 bla-bla question
benjikun: change it to “Do you consider” 18:36
otherwise I guess there can be a misunderstanding
benjikun AlexDaniel: updated
AlexDaniel benjikun: then there's rakudo version question
benjikun: but if you answered “I don't use perl6 anymore” then I guess it needs an option “no rakudo installed right now”, or something like that 18:37
benjikun alright, added 18:38
AlexDaniel benjikun: also in the header it should probably say “all questions are optional, so feel free to skip…” 18:39
benjikun: otherwise there's an impression that the form maybe will not submit just because you can't answer some
whew :)
benjikun fixed 18:40
AlexDaniel hmmm someone answered dead keys, but I don't know any dead key that'd result in a perl 6 operator… I should revise that 18:43
maybe there's something for math 18:44
but it's right that you can still use it for non-ascii variable names
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MasterDuke i would suggest adding ruby as option in the other language question 18:48
AlexDaniel MasterDuke: it's still possible through “Other…” field 18:49
MasterDuke ah, right
CIAvash[m] Why does the survey need a "Sign in"? 18:51
18:51 raschipi left
benjikun CIAVash[m]: Settings were changed since beginning, shouldn't now 18:55
Yep, all good to go 18:58
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jmerelo benjikun: some has voted down on everything... An unhappy customer. 19:00
benjikun jmerelo: Probably a troll
jmerelo I'm happy with the 7 mode the documentation gets. :-) 7 is fair. Let's try to push it towards 8...
benjikun Me too, all things considered, 7 is pretty good 19:02
Under the question about module requests, one user says "I'm not aware of anything rivalling Go's context use everywhere" 19:05
What is Go's context use?
jmerelo benjikun: that's probably El_Che
I have no idea either.
El_Che hi 19:06
benjikun some concurrency thing
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El_Che I haven't filled in the survey yet 19:06
jmerelo El_Che: Then Sue Spence, maybe. Do you know what's that?
benjikun El_Che: goo.gl/forms/JXtrWDYFrV9ENW6x2 when you get a chance
El_Che "Are there any modules that you need in Perl 6 that aren't readily available? If so, what? 19:07
"
that one?
benjikun Yeah
El_Che The response does not make any sense to me
(and I use Go quite often)
benjikun I'm assuming they're talking about this: blog.golang.org/context
El_Che yes, but it's that a module? 19:08
benjikun hm
El_Che pretty much all web stuff works with a context 19:09
that holds the request, response, headers, auth, etc
jmerelo El_Che: probably Cro does something like that 19:10
El_Che I think go has 1 layer of indirection less 19:11
I see what the poster meant if seen like that 19:12
eg in a lot of go web mini frameworks you chain middlewares and handlers by passing the context around and eventually returning an error
cro seem to use things like before and after in the handler block 19:13
How do not now how cro handles threading in this case, but I find it conceptually easier to understand 19:15
benjikun I see 19:16
El_Che I do not...
benjikun for anyone subscribed to the email lists, did you get the email I sent out?
El_Che was the beginning of that sentence
19:17 jmerelo left
benjikun should be titled "Perl 6 User Survey - June 2018" 19:17
timotimo El_Che: if you don't immediately emit the result of your middleware processing, the pipeline will just wait until it happens 19:22
El_Che: i.e. just do whatever threading you want, and eventually "emit" the result
El_Che it looks good to me 19:23
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benjikun 41 responses to the survey so far 20:03
MasterDuke hm, wonder if a question about interaction with the broader community would have been useful. e.g., do you actively blog, post on SO, hang out on IRC, go to conferences, ... 20:06
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benjikun I thought about including one like that for IRC 20:06
AlexDaniel maybe next time 20:07
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benjikun we could include one-question polls that change frequently somewhere on perl6.org to make it less of a hassle for people 20:08
not as unified or anything, but could be useful data nonetheless
I've seen websites that do that 20:09
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p6noob Hi, for Junctions, docs.perl6.org/type/Junction says "The type of a Junction does not affect the number of items in the resultant Junction after autothreading.", but in the next sentence it says "the compile is allowed to short-circuit autothreading". 20:35
if a Junction result is always the same size until put into boolean context, where would it ever get short-circuited? It seems to me every element must always be evaluated in order to maintain the junction size. 20:36
the compiler* 20:37
AlexDaniel p6noob: yeah, confusing 20:38
p6noob: can you open a ticket? github.com/perl6/doc/issues/ 20:39
p6noob Okay, will do
AlexDaniel what it says is about right, but the phrasing can be clarified
20:45 BenGoldberg left 20:46 Zoffix joined, Zoffix left 20:57 molaf left
p6noob AlexDaniel: do you any suggestion for an improved description of short-circuiting in regard to junctions? 21:00
21:03 zakharyas left
AlexDaniel p6noob: hmm not really, I'd leave that to experts :) 21:03
p6noob AlexDaniel: heh.. fair enough. thanks. 21:04
fwiw, posted a doc issue.
21:05 Tideflat left
AlexDaniel p6noob++ :) 21:06
Geth doc: 2c921344ce | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Type/Junction.pod6
Clarify junctional short-circuiting

Closes github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2120		 21:25
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/type/Junction
tyil LoneStar isn't mentioned as a way to get Perl 6 in the survey :( 21:35
AlexDaniel benjikun: ↑
tyil: I think those who use it can still use Other… field?
tyil it wasn't a super serious downside :p 21:36
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turdmonkey Hello. 21:44
tyil hi 21:45
turdmonkey Anyone go to perlcon? 21:51
My work sent me. It was great. Larry Wall is a super nice and humble guy. 21:52
tyil you mean The Perl Conference? or is there yet another one I havent heard about ;~;
turdmonkey TPC 21:53
tyil ah
I'm going to TPC in Glasgow
turdmonkey cool
I met Randall Schwartz, too 21:54
tyil there was recently one in Saltlake City i believe
turdmonkey got he and Larry Wall's signatures on my books
giggled like a schoolgirl
yep that's the one
tyil I went to my first one in Amsterdam last year, was great fun 21:55
met a lot of awesome folk
and now I have a talk scheduled for a perl workshop as well 21:56
I want to do a perl 6 talk on FOSDEM next year as well
pmurias had his presentation as almost the last thing at TPC::EU so he spent most of it super stressed out :|
tyil I hope I won't be too stressed 21:57
it's my first public speaking event at NLPW
turdmonkey tyil, I find that it's best to confront your fears head on. Just go up there naked already so you are in total control. 21:59
tyil part of the crowd probably has seen me naked already
does it still apply in that case?
turdmonkey Not sure, that's a technicality. 22:01
i'm having a weird issue when trying to run `zef install HTTP::UserAgent`
tyil could you post the error in paste site? 22:02
turdmonkey it says, "#NETWORK_TESTING was not set", and I cannot find anything with Google about it. Does anyone know what this ,eams?
tyil oh
22:02 joya joined
tyil if you set the environment variable NETWORK_TESTING to some truthy value, such as 1, it will run those 22:02
turdmonkey ahh it's an env var..
tyil those are generally disabled by default because they poke arbitrary 3rd parties
and to allow clean installation even if network is dodgy 22:03
turdmonkey hmmm
is it something with zef, specifically?
tyil no
it's specified in the module's tests
there's a similar thing with AUTHOR_TESTING, which generally does additional tests that are not guaranteed to succeed in generic environments 22:04
turdmonkey How do I change it?
like
$NETWORK_TESTING=1 ..??
tyil what OS are you using? 22:05
turdmonkey Arch
tyil AUTHOR_TESTING=1 zef install HTTP::UserAgent
turdmonkey oooh
Thanks. 22:06
tyil no problem :)
if it's not asked on Stack Overflow yet, and you want some free reputation, you can ask it there as well 22:07
turdmonkey haha
tyil (I'm serious on that part, we're trying to increase online presence, and SO is generally a well used medium to find answers to questions like this) 22:08
turdmonkey Hm, I see. 22:09
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Geth doc: 46384a1c8d | Coke++ | writing-docs/STYLEGUIDE.md
whitespace
 22:59
23:01 raschipi joined 23:03 ToddAndMargo joined
ToddAndMargo Hi All, I am trying to check if a directory exists. This works:$ p6 'say "zef.git".IO.d.Bool;' True 23:04
But this throws an error: `if not {$WorkingDir}.IO.d.Bool { mkdir "{$WorkingDir}", 0o766; }` No such method 'IO' for invocant of type 'Block'
What am I doing wrong, this time? 23:05
raschipi It's what's on the tin, calling IO in a block doesn't work, you need to call it in a string.
What's in $WorkingDir? It's a String, the name of the directory? 23:07
ToddAndMargo So, remove the{} ?
raschipi Just drop the braces
ToddAndMargo works. Thank you!
raschipi No problem.
Any time. 23:08
23:09 perlpilot left
geekosaur I see a misunderstanding here, that {$x} in perl 6 is somehow the same as shell's ${x}. it's not. 23:16
in a double quoted string, { some expression } interpolates the result of that expression. 23:17
m: "it's { sin 5 }".say
camelia it's -0.9589242746631385
raschipi ToddAndMargo: do you see the difference? {...} in Perl6 works like in C, ity creates a block. 23:19
geekosaur or a hash, in some contexts; or as a postcircumfix, associative indexing (e.g. %foo{$key}) 23:21
jnthn tyil: Sorry, was afk pretty much the whole day 23:22
tyil I noticed
no worries, though
it's not a matter of life and death
you feel like discussing something in pm, or are you planning to sleep soon? 23:23
raschipi m: if {"evalbot"}.IO.d
camelia 5===SORRY!5===
Expression needs parens to avoid gobbling block
at <tmp>:1
------> 3if {"evalbot"}7⏏5.IO.d
Missing block (apparently claimed by expression)
at <tmp>:1
------> 3if {"evalbot"}.IO.d7⏏5<EOL>
raschipi m: if ({"evalbot"}.IO.d)
camelia 5===SORRY!5===
Expression needs parens to avoid gobbling block
at <tmp>:1
------> 3if ({"evalbot"}7⏏5.IO.d)
Missing block (apparently claimed by expression)
at <tmp>:1
------> 3if ({"evalbot"}.IO.d)7⏏5<EOL>
raschipi m: if ({"evalbot"}.IO.d) { say 'so'} 23:24
camelia No such method 'IO' for invocant of type 'Block'
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
raschipi m: if ({"evalbot"}().IO.d) { say 'so'}
camelia so
raschipi m: if {"evalbot"}().IO.d { say 'so'}
camelia so
raschipi m: my $WorkingDir = 'evalbot'; if {"evalbot"}().IO.d { say 'so'}
camelia so
raschipi m: my $WorkingDir = 'evalbot'; if {"evalbot"}().IO.d { say "$WorkingDir exists"}
camelia evalbot exists
23:25 sno joined
raschipi Sorry for the spam, I thought I was msg camelia 23:25
jnthn tyil: Yeah, pretty soon...though if it's easy/quick I can :)
tyil I'm not sure if it's easy or quick, but I can propose my question and you can decide whether you want to look at it later if you want 23:26
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ToddAndMargo Thank you. The light bulb went off after you guys told me to remove the bracket 23:31
raschipi ToddAndMargo: And 'not' wil coerce to Bool, so the method call is superfluous 23:37
'if' will do it too
I can keep going if trying to write more idiomatic code interests you, if you just want it to work, that's a perfectly fine line of code... 23:40
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ToddAndMargo I use "not" a lot as it is human readable. It is for me not Perl 23:55
what am I doing wrong now? p6 'if index "123rc456", "rc" > -1 {say "> -1"}else{say "no"};' Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '⏏rc' (indicated by ⏏)
Geth ¦ p6-sake: AlexDaniel self-assigned Parallel execution github.com/perl6/p6-sake/issues/9 23:56
ToddAndMargo Ah poop.l not enought paranthsis!
( index "123rc456", "rc" ) > -1
raschipi For example, 'if not' can be spelled 'unless'. 23:57
ToddAndMargo `unless` is harder for me to wrap my mind around. Maybe it is bacuase I am use to using `not` or maybe because I am a beginner 23:59
raschipi No, it's all about preference and which one represents the problem better.

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