»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend! 🦋
Set by Zoffix on 25 July 2018.
timotimo feel free to be astounded, there's a new JSON::Fast release out 00:00
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cpan-p6 New module released to CPAN! JSON::Fast (0.9.14) by 03TIMOTIMO 00:11
timotimo you can now have support for parsing multiple json blobs in the same string 00:12
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jmerelo releasable6: status 04:21
releasable6 jmerelo, Next release will happen when it's ready. R6 is down. At least 4 blockers. 262 out of 660 commits logged (⚠ 1 warnings)
jmerelo, Details: gist.github.com/bfa44250ea14bd175b...c2d00ff425
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Geth doc: 16f2a1901b | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Type/X/Control.pod6
Clarifies example in a control environment

This closes #2871; also closes #2551 since that's been cleared up already.		 05:09
synopsebot_ Link: doc.perl6.org/type/X::Control
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nebuchadnezzar hello 09:11
Do you know that rakudo.party certificates expires on 2019 May 28th? 09:12
ok, even when I accept the certificat it results in 503 service unavailable :-/ 09:13
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AlexDaniel rba[m]: ↑ that thing too :) 09:35
nebuchadnezzar: yeah, we were supposed to transfer these websites but lately the infrastructure had some difficulties
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nebuchadnezzar AlexDaniel: ok, so I'll wait to share the article “On Troll Hugging, Hole Digging, and Improving Open Source Communities” 09:41
AlexDaniel nebuchadnezzar: what about blogs.perl.org/users/zoffix_znet/20...ities.html 09:42
nebuchadnezzar AlexDaniel: it's missing the images ;-) 09:43
AlexDaniel doesn't have the pictures…
yeah
what about web.archive.org/web/20181118101555...ities.html
nebuchadnezzar AlexDaniel: it's not urgent, it can wait
AlexDaniel :)
nebuchadnezzar: I just don't know how long you'll wait, there's progress on the infrastructure but it's very slow and gradual
nebuchadnezzar AlexDaniel: thanks for the information 09:45
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rba AlexDaniel and nebuchadnezzar: I haven't had rakudo.party on my scope. Was this on the broken server too? I thought is something from zoffix? 10:00
AlexDaniel rba: yes, it was on Zoffix's server, but it's an important resource
even undersightable6 checked for its availability 10:01
rba: IIRC all of that stuff is on github somewhere, and we should've moved it to our servers
rba Ok. May someone give me more information. Btw. perl6.party is showing unavailable too.
AlexDaniel but seems like everyone was busy with their stuff so that didn't happen
rba May I ask someone who has some infos to open a problem-solving ticktet for this to make shure it's not getting lost? 10:02
patrickb rba: Quick search brought up this: github.com/zoffixznet/perl6.party/...aster/post 10:03
AlexDaniel rba: colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_lo...01-06#l329 10:04
rba: plus some messages above
also I miss Zoffix
kawaii iirc he was somewhat active recently 10:05
at least, it seems like he's still interested in Perl 6, he reported a dead link a few weeks back 10:06
lizmat I also miss Zoffix
I hope we can settle on renaming "Perl 6" to "Rakudo"
AlexDaniel kawaii: he also helped to transfer z tool recently github.com/perl6/z
lizmat: I hope we can settle on renaming, yes, yes… :)
lizmat: though even my suggestion to move rakudo repo to perl6 org didn't fly well recently 10:07
which isn't as big of a deal as people tend to suggest
rba afk for lunch. will follow up later and if not yet open I will open an issue. 10:08
AlexDaniel it's just so that I and other can move goddamn tickets, and because having separate orgs is pointless anyway
but whatever
kawaii Is that really an 'us' decision? ;)
docs.perl6.org/language/faq#Why_is...lled_Perl?
I'm not against having Rakudo moved into perl6/ I just wanted to question it further so we didn't miss anything 10:09
AlexDaniel (that's the ticket for the thing I'm referring to github.com/perl6/problem-solving/issues/46 fo )
that ticket really reminds me of discussions about RT
and how everyone is against for some bullshit reasons, and in the end we still had to open github issue tracker and now it's good that we've done so 10:10
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lizmat AlexDaniel: pretty sure it was no "some bullshit reason" at the time 10:12
since then, Github has grown in features, stability and ubiquity 10:13
AlexDaniel every time we have these discussions “at the time” means five-ten years ago and no longer relevant or useful
lizmat true
fwiw, I never liked RT and was glad we moved to Github
jnthn I consider the language/compiler distinction both still relevant and useful. 10:14
lizmat like many great Perl 5 driven platforms, it lacked in maintenance and therefore features that other platforms did provide
sena_kun can agree on repo moving to be a LTA idea, we get easy ticket moving and also sudden 404 for all the scripts, tools, browser histories and such that know the old links
jnthn And, potentially, important for the future.
kawaii jnthn: Yes I did mention when it was first raised that Rakudo != Perl 6, and should not be considered the 'defacto' or 'official' compiler. Someone new to the language could easily be mislead. 10:15
AlexDaniel the distinction has nothing to do with what github organization the repo is in
also, github will provide redirects for some time at least
jnthn Also, branding my contributions on problem-solving as "bullshit reasons" is a REALLY good way to kill my motivation to look at those.
AlexDaniel bullshit reasons on that ticket have nothing to do with your other great contributions 10:16
jnthn Just because you disagree doesn't make it bullshit.
Please pick a more constructive criticism. 10:17
AlexDaniel sure, once I have time to respond. Maybe soon, maybe never 10:23
kawaii :( 10:24
AlexDaniel whether it is the naming, or the issue tracker, or having unnecessary separate github orgs, it's just easier to spend the time we spend on discussion to actually do the change and move on 10:26
though admittedly it was my mistake when I opened the issue tracker on rakudo/rakudo, should've thought ahead of time that it's in the wrong org 10:28
but it's interesting how it wasn't a big deal when language bugs/feature requests were filed in rakudo/rakudo, and everyone seemed to be fine with it 10:29
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sena_kun I have a feeling that if a user has write rights to both repo/orgs, then inter-organization ticket moving should be possible, so it is something to request from github, not argue about. 10:30
AlexDaniel and now that we have the problem-solving repo and things are a bit more clear, oh no, you can't move rakudo/rakudo because language and the compiler are separate!!!
patrickb This discussion has reached a point, where statements are strongly percieved to contain a personal component. May I ask you to continue this later.
AlexDaniel sena_kun: yeah and then we somehow have different policies for contributors and stuff, which also needs to be fixed 10:31
sure I'll continue this later. Meanwhile please think how to improve things instead of dragging things down. Would be great to have one less reason for people to leave 10:34
kawaii Yes I did wonder why I signed a CLA to get access to Rakudo when Rakudo is a 3rd party project not directly managed by TPF?
AlexDaniel kawaii: yes definitely! 10:37
kawaii: it should be clear, I think, but it doesn't hurt for sure
kawaii: it seems like nobody else experiences R#2759, so it's probably fine and we'll just remove the label a bit later
synopsebot_ R#2759 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/2759 [BLOCKER][REPL] REPL: Internal error: unhandled encoding (Readline)
lizmat AlexDaniel: agree with removing the blocker for now 10:38
kawaii Alright, I'll post the results later tonight then :)
AlexDaniel kawaii: as for R##3000, I don't think it's revertable because it fixed too many things
R#3000
synopsebot_ R#3000 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/3000 [BLOCKER][regression] “parser did not give circumfix an EXPR” after “Re-implement colon list processing” commit
AlexDaniel kawaii: R#3009 is something we can maybe ignore if we want to get the release going, but it's extremely annoying when you get red AppVeyor for no good reason… I wish we fixed it 10:39
synopsebot_ R#3009 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/3009 [BLOCKER] Intermittent failure in 06-struct.t on Windows
kawaii I'll spend some time next week getting a platform where we can rerun Blin nightly and have the results uploaded to somewhere
my time this week has been consumed working on my bot for Discord Hack Week so I can hopefully win a free t-shirt :( 10:40
AlexDaniel kawaii: R#3011 is now fixed in the module, I think, so we can kinda remove the blocker label. It's a weird ticket, I can't say that current rakudo breaks anything… IIRC it has always been a bit broken 10:41
synopsebot_ R#3011 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/3011 [BLOCKER][weird] Weird “P6M Merging GLOBAL symbols failed” issue
AlexDaniel kawaii: also I accidentally answered on this channel instead of #perl6-dev :) 10:42
releasable6: status
releasable6 AlexDaniel, Next release will happen when it's ready. R6 is down. At least 4 blockers. 262 out of 660 commits logged (⚠ 1 warnings)
AlexDaniel, Details: gist.github.com/ed92df1e53f5cdcabf...77ee1e6b9f
AlexDaniel good bot, says that R6 is down :) 10:43
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dolmen How can I declare an argument for MAIN that adds each occurence of a parameter value to a array of Str ? 11:29
I tried: unit sub MAIN(Str :param(@param)); 11:30
AlexDaniel this works I think: perl6 -e 'sub MAIN(:@foo) { say @foo }' --foo=abc --foo=def --foo=xyz
ideally it should be Str :@foo but somehow that doesn't work 11:31
dolmen And how to change the name of the argument exposed to the world?
I want the usage to be --param but the variable being named @params...
AlexDaniel sub MAIN(:blah(:@foo)) { say @foo }' --blah=abc --blah=def --blah=xyz
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Geth ¦ problem-solving: rba self-assigned rakudo.party github.com/perl6/problem-solving/issues/52 12:30
¦ problem-solving: rba assigned to maettu Issue rakudo.party github.com/perl6/problem-solving/issues/52
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pmurias vrurg: the js backend should now build after the recent build system changes 12:45
yoleaux 21 Jun 2019 18:07Z <nine> pmurias: yes, it will. But I don't see another way without losing all the benefits. And the user still has the choice to opt out via no precompilation;
kawaii can I just say I love the `given ($thing) { when x {} } ` way of doing control flow in P6, waaaaaay better than if/elsif 12:56
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sena_kun kawaii, and parens are not even necessary. ;) 13:17
kawaii sena_kun: ah thank you for pointing that out!
sena_kun m: given 5 { when *.is-prime { 1.say } } 13:18
camelia 1
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xinming_ kawaii: The given when is the switch in perl6. But the most advanced one switch statement in programming language. 13:29
and also, given $x { ... } can be used alone.
given $x { .say; } 13:30
m: my $x = 3; given $x { .say };
camelia 3
kawaii oh that's pretty cool! 13:31
jnthn Also, for lines() { when /blah/ { } } works because `for` also (by default) sets $_ 13:32
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xinming_ kawaii: Do you see the design consistency in perl6? 13:32
:-) 13:33
kawaii If there's one comment I have about Perl 6, it's that the language is the most intuitive I've seen 13:35
I did not come from a Perl 5 background, I can't read or write Perl 5 easily at all
xinming_ when we use perl6, We feel excited about this. I sometimes feel, that it is the same feeling when people can use perl5 in 1995
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Geth doc: coke self-assigned xt/aspell.t doc/Language/unicode_entry.pod6 github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2869
e08cb651bd | Coke++ | xt/code.pws
 13:53
doc: f2522e28c9 | Coke++ | xt/words.pws
Track new "words" from sample code.

Resolves #2869
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dolmen Following my questions about flags for MAIN, I don't understand why I get usage instead of correct execution for this simple code: 14:47
perl6 -e 'unit sub MAIN(Str $arg1, :flag(@flags)); say $arg1; say @flags' --flag=X x
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dolmen Shorter: perl6 -e 'unit sub MAIN(:flag(@flags)); say @flags' --flag=X 14:49
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cpan-p6 New module released to CPAN! GTK::Glade (0.8.5) by 03MARTIMM 14:51
Voldenet dolmen: this will work though `perl6 -e 'unit sub MAIN(:flag(@flags)); say @flags' –flag=X –flag=X2`
dolmen So what do I have to change in the signature to make it work for just 1 --flag value? 14:52
Voldenet dolmen: `perl6 -e 'unit sub MAIN(:flag($flags)); say $flags' –flag=X` 14:53
dolmen (It works for 0 value, and more than 2)
Voldenet erm
dolmen: `perl6 -e 'unit sub MAIN(:flag($flags)); say $flags' --flag=X`
dolmen I want it to work for 0..Inf values. 14:54
Voldenet It will, try passing more arguments :)
dolmen Oh it works.
But I would like the resulting type to always be an array. 14:55
Empty array if no args. Array with 1 element with 1 flag. Array with $_ element with $_ flags. 14:56
Voldenet I don't usually cast using signatures, so I've got no idea what I'm doing, but `unit sub MAIN(Array() :flag($flags));` is somewhat closer 14:58
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cpan-p6 New module released to CPAN! GTK::V3 (0.13.2) by 03MARTIMM 15:21
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kawaii I can't seem to remember, but is there a `zef` command you can run in the root of a project directory to just find all the things you need and download them? 15:47
jmerelo kawaii: it might, but I really don't remember
timotimo i mean there's zef --deps-only install . 15:48
or maybe it's --depsonly
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kawaii ah jmerelo! I wanted to ask, do you own the Google form for the user survey? :) 15:48
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jmerelo kawaii: one of the owners, yes. Want me to share it with you? 15:48
kawaii Yes please, [email@hidden.address] just wanted to check out the results :) 15:49
lizmat dolmen: that problem got recently fixed in bleed, which version are you using ?
jmerelo kawaii: here you go. Nice domain, BTW 15:50
kawaii jmerelo: thanks :)
jmerelo We have 180 answers right now. Anyone around not filled it, please do so: docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLS...g/viewform
lizmat weekly: perlcon.eu/schedule 16:02
notable6 lizmat, Noted!
jmerelo squashable6: status 16:04
squashable6 jmerelo, Next SQUASHathon in 7 days and ≈11 hours (2019-07-06 UTC-14⌁UTC+20). See github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Mont...Squash-Day
jmerelo Squashathon is coming!
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TreyHarris kawaii, timotimo: zef install --deps-only . 16:11
jmerelo TreyHarris: but that looks into META6.json and installs what's in there. It does not dive into the .pm6 looking for modules. 16:12
TreyHarris jmerelo: yes, but automatic dependency graph generation isn't something Perl 6 currently provides, does it? 16:13
Not to mention, if your uses of community modules aren't fully-qualified it may be ambiguous or even unsafe to automatically download and install them. META6.json specifies the developers' intent 16:15
I'd say use a tool to fill META6.json. Not zef's job.
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jmerelo TreyHarris: I'm not sure, but I would say no... 16:15
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TreyHarris jmerelo: Is there a discussion of the control stuff that led to your changing "oops" to "Vaya" yesterday? I stared at that commit for awhile and just gave up trying to understand it, I admit ;-) 16:16
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jmerelo TreyHarris: I just liked Vaya more, which is like Oops in Spanish. I finally didn't use "loop" for the example, but a sub 16:18
TreyHarris ahhh! Wasn't aware vaya was oops, so I was totally confused. I thought "vaya" was an imperative "go away!" 16:19
jmerelo TreyHarris: it's no big deal, simply that it was using CONTROL outside a control structure. Technically correct, but not what it was intended
TreyHarris: that would be váyase (formal), or vete (informal). Vaya is a mild expression of disappointment. 16:20
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TreyHarris Ah. Mi español es muy rudimentario. Puedo hablar con niños un poco tontos. 16:22
El_Che Vaya con Dios
jmerelo TreyHarris: looks fine to me :-)
El_Che www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgUyDhwDFdU
TreyHarris Better than Beto's maybe lol
jmerelo El_Che: nice group. From Belgium, were they? 16:23
El_Che yeah, local
TreyHarris The problem with getting a computational linguistics degree is that at any time you're studying three or four languages from different language families AND picking up one or two programming languages at the same time... I can read six languages with help from a dictionary, but I can't speak any of them except English (and not even that one much of the time). 16:24
jmerelo Linguistics and Perl seem to go so much together... 16:26
TreyHarris One semester I was studying Spanish, Russian, Japanese, and Swahili all at once, and in conversational Spanish spontaneously produced the sentence "Mi knigi-ga están dorm yango-ni" 16:27
jmerelo TreyHarris: He 16:28
TreyHarris yeah--my honors thesis was on how the use of Perl (5 then) idioms and the choice of when to suffix conditionals and use "silent $_" (what we'd now call the unbound topic) in CPAN modules reflected natural language discourse maxims 16:30
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TreyHarris Speaking of... I'd like to remove "use active voice" from Contributing.md. It's a grammar-maven shibboleth that passive voice is harder to understand or creates unnecessary ambiguity that's never been shown in research to be true. And passive voice is frequently used in technical documentation because the agent is either the writer or the reader, which doesn't make sense to express explicitly. Uh, "Writers 16:38
frequently use passive voice in technical documentation"? Uh, no. Doesn't mean the same thing. Proves the point ;-)
timotimo %) 16:40
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TreyHarris I'd be fine with `prefer the active voice to the passive voice used with the word "by"--e.g., "this is used by crafty programmers" -> "crafty programmers use this"`, which is probably what moritz (it looks like from git-blame) was going for in adding the line at all 16:41
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Geth doc: 86954b9cf8 | (Trey Harris)++ | CONTRIBUTING.md
CONTRIBUTING.md: refine passive voice principle

There's nothing wrong with the passive voice used correctly. Uh,
  "there's nothing wrong with my using the passive voice?" "There's
nothing wrong with our using the passive voice?" Uh, no. ;-)
Technical documentation frequently needs the passive voice because the ... (6 more lines)		 16:56
TreyHarris There.
TimToady Passive voice is approved of by me, except when it isn't. 16:58
timotimo "use of ventriloquism in the technical documentation is to be avoided at all costs"
TreyHarris TimToady: In my aforementioned honors thesis, I believe I wrote that you invented the concept of using verbal mood and aspect in programming languages; why not voice, too? I guess we already have a sort of middle voice vs. active voice, don't we? 16:59
Maybe more antipassive than middle 17:00
timotimo does your honors thesis also include a section about honorifics?
TreyHarris timotimo: no, I hadn't made that connection until I saw someone else make it (did TimToady do it first?). But there were lots of natural-language features of Perl I saw used in idiomatic ways on CPAN that I couldn't mention for time and space 17:02
I honestly can't remember the honorifics connection now, though, just that it was made... sigils and twigils are honorifics? 17:03
tyil jmerelo: poke
timotimo oh, i was just trying to do a pun 17:04
though tbh many times silly puns can lead people to think in a direction that is ultimately and surprisingly productive
also, now i am interested in where a honorifics connection exists
TreyHarris ah, honors thesis, honorifics... I get it. I think of honorifics as 敬語 (keigo) so I don't normally consider the English derivation 17:06
kawaii I'm trying to sanitise some user input, they should only enter the command followed by an ID number, or a 'tag' which is basically `<@$user-id>`... But this doesn't seem to work, any regex experts here? :) www.irccloud.com/pastebin/jOIwi3bw/ 17:07
TreyHarris In American baccalaureate degrees, you can graduate "with honors" if you do extra work, one piece of which is to write a thesis.
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timotimo ah 17:10
TreyHarris As it happens, I left for the siren-call of a dotcom startup before graduating, so the thesis didn't count for much. But it was fun to write.
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timotimo m: say '<@99>' ~~ / '<@' '!'? <( \d+ )> '>' /; 17:11
camelia ｢99｣
timotimo kawaii: what's $cmd-obj.args?
also, you can feel free to leave out the ( ) for your if statement
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kawaii timotimo: uh, like a string of whatever they entered after the command trigger word 17:11
I just want to cut out anything that isn't the first string of numbers 17:12
timotimo right, that code you have should normally do it
kawaii timotimo: ` invalid input syntax for integer: "<@496805464491687949>"` 17:13
TreyHarris timotimo: you can leave out the round brackets? But then the assignment from $/ won't work, will it?
timotimo whenever i'm translating something to german, i have trouble deciding between "du" and "Sie", which is a question of honorifics, really
TreyHarris: no, i mean the if ( ... ) { } part can just be if ... { } instead 17:14
kawaii: sounds like the match didn't suecceed, and i'm not sure why it wouldn't :\
TreyHarris timotimo: Oh! I thought you meant the `<( \d+ )>` could be `< \d+ >` and was confused. Gotcha.
timotimo can you print the .perl of $cmd-obj.args perhaps?
lizmat
.oO( Sie vs du in German is now you and U in American )
 17:15
timotimo <( and )> are actually two independent tokens
they control where the start and end of a match will be placed
i like to call them "inside-out lookahead and lookbehind"
kawaii: oh, you also may want to .Int or .Str.Int the $/ before putting it into $user-id 17:16
kawaii www.irccloud.com/pastebin/6flzOHGX/
uh, ooops
ah I'm missing a \ apparently?
timotimo but that shouldn't be as important
no, i think that's from the .perl
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TreyHarris lizmat: *In American Gen Y and Z I think. To boomers and most Gen X'ers, I think 'U' just looks like a shortcut or l33t-speak exactly equivalent to "you". But I won't argue with the emerging metaphor, it's very nice! 17:16
timotimo m: say '<@1234>'.perl
camelia "<\@1234>"
timotimo because @123 is actually short-hand for @($/[123]) 17:17
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kawaii maybe I should simplify this and just scrap any content from cmd-obj.args that isn't a string of numbers? 17:17
lizmat kawaii timotimo related: github.com/perl6/problem-solving/issues/44 17:18
timotimo are you expecting exactly one?
lizmat: i saw :)
kawaii yes, I'd like to discard any more
timotimo ok, in that case i think your current code is the most straight-forward piece 17:19
kawaii i.e. find the first set of numbers, so if $cmd-obj.args = "1 947 10348944", it would return 1 and nothing more
TreyHarris Whoah, @123 is shorthand for... oh, of course. I see. That's kind of like seeing 'q++' used for the empty string, it just feels like it can't be that, it must obviously be this other thing it isn't.
timotimo kawaii: perhaps later in the code you're accidentally using $cmd.args instead of $user-id or something
does printf-debugging tell you what's up? 17:20
or, you know, even using an actual debugger, like comma has
TreyHarris: i don't know what q++ refers to here?
oh
kawaii oh you could be right!
timotimo now i get it :)
that's hilarious, i should start using that 17:21
TreyHarris The "invalid input syntax for integer" message might be relevant? Why would that be generated from that code snippet? It's gotta be coming from elsewhere
timotimo yeah, it probably comes from a/the server
TreyHarris timotimo: I can't claim credit; Damian used it in an obfuscated Perl contest entry
timotimo it was already valid in perl 5 and earlier i expect? 17:22
lizmat m: dd Q++ # for Star Trek fans :-)
camelia ""
TreyHarris Perl 5, yes; were q/qq/qw operators in Perl 4? I don't believe so 17:23
timotimo Q is a lot more verbose than that, aren't they? :D
or i guess Q are? 17:25
Qs?
The Qs? The Q?
i'm not sufficiently educated in star trek lore to adequately address Q 17:26
TreyHarris timotimo: unfortunately, you won't get any satisfaction from canon sources on that; John de Lancie said "Qs" a couple times. By Voyager, they'd settled on "Q are" for the general and "Q is" for the singular 17:30
timotimo that probably fits the "impossible for human minds to comprehend" nature 17:31
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timotimo lizmat: did you by chance have a look at the JSON::Fast feature i just recently added? 17:43
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lizmat timotimo: the changelog message doesn't do it justice... the new Additional features section does :-) 17:49
timotimo you mean the Changes file or the git commit log? 17:51
lizmat the Changes file
timotimo hm, i don't see what it's lacking; if you think it's a sufficiently big deal, i'd totally accept a patch, though 17:52
lizmat it didn't really click that the structured exception allows one to just do another parse starting at X 17:53
17:53 |oLa| left
lizmat FWIW, maybe a "from-jsons" sub would be appropriate to capture that idea ? 17:54
or "from-multi-json"
timotimo that's also what the original ticket asked for. hmm.
lizmat the only problem I see with really faulty JSON: when should it stop trying to make sense ? 17:55
ah, no, this is only additional data at the outer level, right
timotimo in that case you get a different exception
that's right
lizmat ack 17:56
timotimo though more structured exceptions in general could be good
lizmat yeah... 17:58
BTW, I've been trying to get from-json faster, based on a completely Uni based approach 17:59
timotimo when parsing fails, it should be not too difficult and hopefully not too expensive to give a jsonpath-like hint where parsing was when it hit the error
ah, that's good
lizmat I managed to get it 20% faster for a 5MB JSON file
timotimo *nice*
lizmat however, it made small JSON, like "{ foo: true }" slower 18:00
timotimo when we have support for non-normalized Uni, that'll allow us to represent strings with arbitrary mixes of normalization and such
lizmat and I think in general, that is the more common case...
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timotimo of course, the program would need to spit out Uni in that case 18:00
lizmat I *think* the fact that the whole string gets Uni-fied and then Str-ified again, is the reason for making the small JSON strings slower 18:01
timotimo hm. so the "foo" going from Uni to Str could be the issue?
lizmat well... the profiler was borked until recently :-) 18:02
I guess I could try that again now :-) 18:03
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Xliff Does anyone know what this error message means: 18:06
"Type check failed for return value; expected OpenSSL::Bio::BIO_METHOD but got Whatever (*)" 18:07
This looks like an OpenSSL::Bio problem. Bug there?
timotimo a stack trace would be good
but yeah, does look a little bit like a bug 18:08
Xliff Best way to generate one?
Because it is not a gdb crash.
TreyHarris use fatal?
Geth ¦ problem-solving: AlexDaniel self-assigned Release process changes github.com/perl6/problem-solving/issues/54
18:08 jmerelo left
timotimo is something nomming up the exception? 18:08
Xliff TreyHarris: The problem is "use Test"
This throws inside a lives-ok 18:09
timotimo oh
then just CATCH { .say } in there
Xliff I do catch .message.say. Is .say better?
TreyHarris Xliff: yeah. anything inside a lives-ok is under the no fatal pragma anyway
timotimo yeah 18:10
message won't give you a stack trace
Xliff So can't even do .say. Would have to diag $_ and hope for backtrace.
Geth ¦ problem-solving: AlexDaniel self-assigned Changelogging takes too much time and effort github.com/perl6/problem-solving/issues/53
timotimo how do you mean?
TreyHarris sorry, I meant "is under the use fatal pragma anyway", thinkod 'no fatal' by mistake. So a CATCH { $*ERR.say } should work if you run it directly rather than through a TAP harness 18:11
sorry, a `CATCH { $*ERR.say: $_ }` 18:12
I forget zero-arg say method prints a newline, not the exterior topic
timotimo TreyHarris: i didn't know lives-ok could just do that?
actually, doesn't zero-arg say throw an exception at compile time?
m: say
camelia 5===SORRY!5===
Argument to "say" seems to be malformed
at <tmp>:1
------> 3say7⏏5<EOL>
Other potential difficulties:
Unsupported use of bare "say"; in Perl 6 please use .say if you meant to call it as a method on $_, or use an …		 18:13
TreyHarris timotimo: look at Test.pm's code and you'll see
m: $*ERR.say()
camelia
TreyHarris method, not sub
I guess that's technically unary, not zero
18:14 |oLa| joined
timotimo TreyHarris: i don't see where lives-ok does the "use fatal" thing 18:14
TreyHarris m: use Test; sub fails() { fail "oh no" }; lives-ok({ fails; CATCH { $*ERR.say: "oops, $_" } } ) 18:15
camelia oops, oh no
not ok 1 -
# Failed test at <tmp> line 1
# oh no
TreyHarris timotimo: in Rakudo, every try block has use fatal implicitly
you can 'no fatal' if you want. This is not the spec, but Rakudo deviates from the Perl 6 spec with respect to Failures 18:16
timotimo yes, but that's lexical to my knowledge
TreyHarris Oh, good point. Then
m: sub fails() { fail "oh no" }; lives-ok({ use fatal; my $out = fails; CATCH { $*ERR.say: "oops, $_" } } )
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Undeclared routine:
lives-ok used at line 1
 18:17
timotimo "use fatal" works by code-genning a "fatalize" op at specific points that could have given a Failure, so it can't be dynamic without doing more code-gen at run time
TreyHarris m: use Test; sub fails() { fail "oh no" }; lives-ok({ use fatal; my $out = fails; CATCH { $*ERR.say: "oops, $_" } } )
camelia oops, oh no
not ok 1 -
# Failed test at <tmp> line 1
# oh no
TreyHarris there
so use fatal and CATCH and print to $*ERR
18:17 |oLa| left
timotimo i've got to be AFK for a bit! 18:18
o/
TreyHarris I keep forgetting we don't have Perl 5 stack-replacement goto-sub. In Perl 5's Test.pm, it would work without doing the pragma again because the scope is replaced (if the pragma were set in Perl 5, which it isn't) 18:19
Gotta head off to a doctor's appointment myself. & 18:22
Xliff: Oh, but in case you were afk yourself, see last camelia--do an explicit 'use fatal' and then $*ERR.say in a CATCH 18:24
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Xliff TreyHarris++ # Thanks! 18:42
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vrurg .tell TreyHarris if I'm not mistaken, samewith/nextwith are stack-replacing calls. 19:18
yoleaux vrurg: I'll pass your message to TreyHarris.
sena_kun Woodi, ping? 19:34
19:45 mniip left
sena_kun .tell Woodi I am going to use Text::LDIF in Cro::LDAP, I wonder if you mind some patches about features and style? 19:47
yoleaux sena_kun: I'll pass your message to Woodi.
Woodi sena_kun: pong !
yoleaux 19:47Z <sena_kun> Woodi: I am going to use Text::LDIF in Cro::LDAP, I wonder if you mind some patches about features and style?
sena_kun oh 19:48
o/
Woodi patches sound good :)
sena_kun I also instinctively removed some spaces and newlines, I wonder if I shouldn't. :)
I am now going to read the RFC and maybe implement empty lines 19:49
TreyHarris vrurg: I know that's been asserted, but it doesn't seem to be the case: gist.github.com/d65d2ca0d9459aaeae...0b2503bb21 19:50
yoleaux 19:18Z <vrurg> TreyHarris: if I'm not mistaken, samewith/nextwith are stack-replacing calls.
TreyHarris urgh, why do my gists get de-indented? 19:51
19:51 molaf left
TreyHarris Weirdly, if you click "Raw" (which shows you the indentation is there) and then click Back in the browser, it's then indented... until you refresh and then it's unindented again 19:52
timotimo accidentally shown as HTML, where multiple whitespace get turned into a single whitespace? 19:53
sena_kun TreyHarris, .txt is probably should be .p6
TreyHarris Oh well. But indentation doesn't matter... nextwith doesn't stack-replace
sena_kun or, hmm...
timotimo yeah, we don't have an HLL-accessible mechanism to straight-up replace a stack frame 19:54
all we have is on-stack-replacement in spesh, which only replaces a regular version of a piece of code with an optimized one, which is a very controlled circumstance
19:55 mniip joined
TreyHarris Well, it isn't a big deal except if you want to create stuff like warnings from perspective of caller or new control flows without additional invisible scoping 19:55
Woodi sena_kun: any idea what could be added to Text::LDIF ? some methods ?
TreyHarris But since two of my Perl 5 modules do those things, it matters to me :-)
sena_kun Woodi, well, from readme it is not very clear to me if your module supports LDIF that describes modifications or not 19:56
TreyHarris Is bare `v6;` preferred over `use v6;` now? 19:58
Woodi sena_kun: hmm, you mean what is send via eg. ldap_modify ? if yes then I didn't have this in mind. to me it is not complete entry but maybe it does not matter... 19:59
MasterDuke m: v8 #upgrade from a camel to a muscle car!
camelia ( no output )
Woodi sena_kun: and, by now, I realy should consult some RFC... 20:00
sena_kun Woodi, yes, this one. well, I want to support it for cro-ldap modify, so would be nice to establish something in this area
Woodi, I also wonder if we want an entry object, or just hash is enough...
s/object/class/ 20:01
Woodi sena_kun: ok, i will check that RFC(s). objects are good when things goes complicated
sena_kun Woodi, I am going to write modification part myself, if you don't mind 20:02
Woodi not a problem for me, if it's usefull then it is super 20:03
20:04 MasterDuke left
TreyHarris Oh, I see; "v6;" is just something to inform other programs the file is Perl 6, it's just a version object in sink context. So `v6.f;` does nothing different from `v6.d;` while `use v6.f` will fail until 6.f is released 20:05
20:06 MasterDuke joined
vrurg TreyHarris: the latest available version is v6.e.PREVIEW though there is not much .e specific yet. 20:11
sena_kun TIL
Woodi sena_kun: also not sure about hashes vs creating object per entry... ldif is just list of named hashes/sets so simple iterator looks usefull. for in memory modification hashes are quick too (except for multi-valued attributes). but ldap_modify wants a diff... 20:22
20:22 lvdb left
sena_kun Woodi, well, I think hashes might be a nice solution 20:23
so don't think there is a need to change something that works 20:24
vrurg TreyHarris: with regard of stack replacement – I'm not sure it should work as you expect it. It could still be re-using a stack frame. But I need to make sure if it really does. 20:25
Woodi sena_kun: not so long ago I wrote invoicing "script" that used hashes... I wish I start with objects for invoices, products and customers :)
night everyone ! 20:26
sena_kun o/
MasterDuke UK folks, what is a good way to get to riga? coming from the west, near gloucester 20:37
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Xliff MasterDuke: v8; # Because, *forehead* I could have had one of those. 20:54
When is the next US Perl convention? Although I know most of you won't be there, I don't think I will be able to get to Riga in August. 20:56
Would like to start demo-ing some of my stuff.
Geth perl6.org: 1e9eba9b12 | (Steve Mynott)++ | source/index.html
6.d isn't new anymore
 20:59
21:00 Black_Ribbon joined 21:03 mniip left 21:04 mniip joined 21:05 pmurias joined 21:06 natrys left
kawaii If I have a Rat, with a lot of decimal places, $result, how can I cut that down to only 2? i.e. 0.24 21:19
timotimo you can .round(0.01)
kawaii ooo
timotimo well, round or ceil or floor
Kaiepi releasable6, status
releasable6 Kaiepi, Next release will happen when it's ready. R6 is down. At least 2 blockers. 262 out of 664 commits logged (⚠ 1 warnings) 21:20
Kaiepi, Details: gist.github.com/33776df3e402678b4b...b2c29516b1
timotimo m: say 4.round(pi)
camelia 3.141592653589793
21:20 hythm joined 21:22 AlexDaniel left
Xliff m: say 4e-2.round(pi) 21:29
camelia 0
Xliff m: say 2.round(pi) 21:30
camelia 3.141592653589793
Xliff m: say π.round(1e-8) 21:31
camelia 3.14159265
Xliff m: say π.round(1e-20)
camelia 3.141592653589793
Xliff What was the rational behind doing decimals with round rather than specifying number of significant digits? 21:32
21:32 AlexDaniel joined
Xliff m: sub myround($v, nt $a where * > 0) { $v.round(1e$a) }; (10+rand).&myround( 21:33
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Invalid typename 'nt' in parameter declaration.
at <tmp>:1
------> 3sub myround($v, nt7⏏5 $a where * > 0) { $v.round(1e$a) }; (10
Xliff m: sub myround($v, nt $a where * > 0) { $v.round(1e$a) }; (10+rand).&myround(6).say
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Invalid typename 'nt' in parameter declaration.
at <tmp>:1
------> 3sub myround($v, nt7⏏5 $a where * > 0) { $v.round(1e$a) }; (10
Xliff m: sub myround($v, $a where * > 0) { $v.round(1e$a) }; (10+rand).&myround(6).say
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Unable to parse expression in argument list; couldn't find final ')' (corresponding starter was at line 1)
at <tmp>:1
------> 3myround($v, $a where * > 0) { $v.round(17⏏5e$a) }; (10+rand).&myro…
Xliff m: my $b = 6; my $e = 10e$b; say $e 21:34
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Confused
at <tmp>:1
------> 3my $b = 6; my $e = 107⏏5e$b; say $e
Xliff m: my $b = 6; my $e = 10 ** -$b; say $e 21:35
camelia 0.000001
Xliff m: sub myround($v, $a where * > 0) { $v.round(10 ** -$a) }; (10+rand).&myround(6).say
camelia 10.292089
Xliff ^^ Currently makes a lot more sense
m: sub myround($v, $a where * > 0) { $v.round(10 ** -$a) }; (10+rand).&myround(3).say
camelia 10.936
21:42 hythm left 21:49 clarkema left 21:50 AlexDaniel left 21:52 hythm joined
japhb m: 13.round(4).say # Xliff 21:55
camelia 12
japhb Because you don't always round in base 10.
Xliff japhb: True enough, but for those of us who mostly do. It would be nice for a sensible shortcut in CORE, so we don't have to deal with overcomplexifying the code. 21:58
It's done in some places but not in all places. So I was just wondering what the requirement for such would be.
21:59 hythm left 22:09 dolmen joined 22:13 splatt9990 joined
kawaii is the syntax for setting a fallback value in the case of Nil like this? `my $a = ... || 0;`? 22:18
or is it `//`?
`...` is a DB::Pg query in this case
my application crashes under certain cases though, if the user you request doesn't exist for instance 22:19
actually, the specific error I get is ` Invocant of method 'Bridge' must be an object instance of type 'Num', not a type object of type 'Num'. Did you forget a '.new'? 22:20
`
jnthn // is better if it's Nil (or any other type object or Failure)
With || you have the issue that 0 and '' and False are falsey 22:21
Basically, it depends what you want to test, which is why we have both :)
kawaii jnthn: gist.githubusercontent.com/kawaii/...tfile1.txt
would this work?
hm, no it seems 22:22
jnthn That looks odd...I mean, I don't think .prepare could return Nil? 22:23
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jnthn And 0 is not something you can call .execute on :) 22:23
kawaii oh ooops
jnthn If it's the result you want to check against it's $result.value // 0 22:24
But...
execute doesn't return a result, I think?
You have to use a fetch method afterwards
kawaii $result.value // 0 works as expected, thanks jnthn :) 22:25
22:29 dolmen left
kawaii `Expression needs parens to avoid gobbling block` 22:30
hm, looks like I broke something else now
gist.githubusercontent.com/kawaii/...tfile1.txt 22:31
I'm probably doing this completely wrong
22:31 dolmen joined, rindolf left
timotimo what does the error point at? 22:32
kawaii timotimo: the second to last }
timotimo the } there?
oh yeah 22:33
elsif needs an expression after it
not just the block :)>
kawaii ah!
I assumed it would just cover all other cases
oh I want else don't I
not elsif
timotimo yeah :) :) 22:34
maybe a little check could be put into the grammar to find that
fwiw, i'd also use a "do given" so you can have $risk = do given $result { ... } 22:35
kawaii timotimo: can I do `unless $user-id ~~ / <(\d+)> / { return my $response = "Invalid user."; }` in the middle of my method to just return the invalid message if it's not a number at all? 22:37
www.irccloud.com/pastebin/3AKaUdzp/ 22:39
and you mean 'do given' like that? ^ :)
22:40 dolmen left 22:44 splatt9990 left
timotimo that's one half of it, but you can also leave out the "$risk = " part 22:48
and yeah, "return" in the middle of a function is fine
kawaii timotimo: github.com/kawaii/p6-rose/blob/mas...ds.pm6#L28 22:52
this is where I'm at so far, the top half of the message seems awfully complicated and verbose for Perl 6, is there some way I can condense those top lines into one regex? :)
method, not message*
22:53 dolmen joined 22:54 imhtrg left
timotimo my $user-id = $cmd-obj.args ~~ / '<@' ... / ?? $/.Str !! $cmd-obj.args; 22:54
if you rename $user-id to $user, you can use :$user in the toxicity-aggregate method call
kawaii ooo time to experiment, slowly getting warmed up to p6 regex :) 22:55
timotimo the ... there isn't meant literally %)
kawaii yes, aware :)
timotimo OK
another way to make it a little shorter: after the first line, $cmd-obj.args is also in $user-id, so you can use that on the LHS of the ~~ for the regex match 22:56
also, you could have an alternative in that regex for just \d+
in that case, you'd always take the true branch of the if (otherwise maybe throw an exception or so) and can just use $/.Str or perhaps $/.Int i guess 22:57
kawaii 🤔
22:57 sena_kun left
timotimo oh, and the check for <(\d+)> doesn't make too much sense, perhaps you meant ^and $ or ^^ $|$? 22:58
er
more likely you mean ^ and $
instead of checking against .0 < * <= .4, you can check against 0 ^.. .4 22:59
for the last one that'd be .7 ^.. *
which also has a *, but isn't actually a WhateverCode
could also use Inf there if you like
kawaii woah okay these are a lot of micro-optimisations to test, thanks timotimo! 23:00
timotimo YW
23:03 dolmen_ joined
guifa If the only implicit variable method calls are used in a block and > 1 arguments are passed, shouldn’t the assumption be that it’s an implicit call on @_ and not on $_ ? 23:03
p6: sub f { .[0] + .[1] }; say f(1,2)
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Calling f(Int, Int) will never work with declared signature ()
at <tmp>:1
------> 3sub f { .[0] + .[1] }; say 7⏏5f(1,2)
guifa p6: sub f { @_[0] + @_[1] }; say f(1,2)
camelia 3
timotimo guifa: that seems a bit too WATy for the corresponding DWIM
especially since there's $^a, $^b ready to be used 23:04
m: sub f { $^a + $^b }; say f(1, 2)
camelia 3
timotimo that's even shorter than using .[0], .[1]
23:04 dolmen left
timotimo also, that would kind of require every sub to be code-genned twice, once with *@_ and once with $_ 23:05
guifa I figured it was because there was somehing going on in compiling that required it to be decided at compile time and not a call time
{(@_[0,1],{.[0]+.[1],.[0]-.[1]}...*)[^@_[2]];} is a smidgen longer than {(.[0,1],{.[0]+.[1],.[0]-.[1]}…*)[^.[2]];} hahaha (although both are equally unreadable) 23:07
timotimo m: sub do-it($a, $b) { [$a, $b], { [.head + .tail, .head - .tail] } ... * }; .say for do-it(5, 1)[^10] 23:09
camelia [5 1]
[6 4]
[10 2]
[12 8]
[20 4]
[24 16]
[40 8]
[48 32]
[80 16]
[96 64]
timotimo are you golfing, though?
23:11 pmurias left
timotimo m: sub do-it($a, $b) { $a, $b, { $^a + $^b, $^a - $^b } ... * }; for do-it(5, 1) -> $a, $b { .say; last if $++ > 10 } 23:13
camelia (Any)
(Any)
(Any)
(Any)
(Any)
(Any)
(Any)
(Any)
(Any)
(Any)
(Any)
(Any)
timotimo m: sub do-it($a, $b) { $a, $b, { $^a + $^b, $^a - $^b } ... * }; for do-it(5, 1) -> $a, $b { [$a, $b].say; last if $++ > 10 }
camelia [5 1]
[(6 4) (3 -1)]
[(4 0) (4 0)]
[(4 0) (4 0)]
[(4 0) (4 0)]
[(4 0) (4 0)]
[(4 0) (4 0)]
[(4 0) (4 0)]
[(4 0) (4 0)]
[(4 0) (4 0)]
[(4 0) (4 0)]
[(4 0) (4 0)]
timotimo hm, no, not quite
m: sub do-it($a, $b) { $a, $b, { slip $^a + $^b, $^a - $^b } ... * }; for do-it(5, 1) -> $a, $b { [$a, $b].say; last if $++ > 10 }
camelia [5 1]
[6 4]
[10 2]
[12 8]
[20 4]
[24 16]
[40 8]
[48 32]
[80 16]
[96 64]
[160 32]
[192 128]
guifa I am golfing :-) 23:14
timotimo yeah, i'm not making it better
23:33 empee0 left
guifa Actually because of that, doing it assuming an infinite stack is slightly better 23:35
Actually… is there a recursion limit?
jnthn RAM 23:36
guifa :D
23:37 dolmen_ left 23:38 pecastro left
timotimo games done quick will have "tasbot plays tetris" in a bit 23:43
oh, hold on
i'm on the wrong day
it's about 24h to go until then
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guifa Oh hot damn 23:51
23:51 nepugia left
guifa {@_,{.say;.[0]+.[1],.[0]-.[1]}...*} 23:51
That actually works
timotimo cool
guifa But still four more than the recursive =\
timotimo d'oh 23:52
guifa is trying to find a way to golf + show off cool features
timotimo "golf off"
Itaipu Hi where there is a good docker image for perl6 so we can have a taste of it, I would like also something on the blead, I tryied docker run -it tonyodell/rakudo-nightly zef install Readline 23:57
but this image gives error trying to install Readline 23:58
Failed to update cpan mirror: raw.githubusercontent.com/ugexe/Pe...ter/cpan1.

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