Prelude was borken (worked around now): sial.org/pbot/11497 | pugscode.org/ <Overview Journal Logs> | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | Chip needs help!!! www.geeksunite.net
Set by autrijus on 4 July 2005.
rafl So is there any project admin available at the moment? It would be nice to add the user rafl to the commiters list. 00:12
obra rafl: hold
rafl: done 00:15
rafl obra: Thanks.
mugwump src/Pugs/PreludePC.hs:28:15: Not in scope: `astPCP' 00:21
is that you, gaal ?
Installing precompiled prelude... ./pugs: error while loading shared libraries: libparrot.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory 00:25
there's my problem
spinclad Juerd, i may not have the full upsidedown charset, esp. in <B>; i can decypher all but 'Abuse|misuse results in account ____in__ion'.
nm, a fresh thought suggests 'termination'. 00:26
svnbot6 r5242, mugwump++ | add to svn:ignore property some generated files 00:34
r5243, mugwump++ | Make sure gen_prelude.pl fails if pugs returns an error code
mugwump hmm, even the precompiled Prelude adds almost 2s to pugs -e 1 00:44
Adding "use Test;" to the top of src/perl6/Prelude.pm doesn't speed up tests, either! Adds 3s to runtime 00:52
svnbot6 r5244, rafl++ | * Fixed Copyright notice
r5244, rafl++ | * Removed debian/{README.Debian,dirs,files,pugs.substvars}
r5244, rafl++ | * Better description
r5244, rafl++ | * Added me to uploaders
r5244, rafl++ | * Bumped up Standards-Version
meppl :-P 00:53
mugwump however it does populate src/Pugs/PreludePC.hs with >1MB of Haskell very enlightening to internals 00:58
rafl 02:14 < obra> rafl: hold 01:27
Whops. Sorry..
The perl5 modules from the pugs distribution are installed in /usr/local/ by default for me while the rest is installed into /usr. How to change that? 01:37
mugwump rafl: you'll possibly need to edit the Makefile.PL to pass around the relevant PREFIX setting properly 01:48
at a guess
rafl mugwump: perl Makefile.PL INSTALLDIRS=vendor seems to work. 01:50
Well, it doesn't. If I do so the rest isn't installed anymore. 02:09
Ah, got it. There is a pure_site_install rule in the generated Makefile that installs the p6 stuff. 02:21
But it seems to be broken.
OK, I have a fix for it. Would someone please test it and give me some feedback? www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~rafl/makefile_fix.diff 02:36
It works really nice for me. 02:37
autrijus I'll use /\bman\d\b/ instead of /man\d/; also please try to keep expandtab (i.e. spaces only) too; also please add yourself to AUTHORS. I'll commit your patch with detab and the \b fix now 02:44
svnbot6 r5245, autrijus++ | * some leftover misc. test fixes from the airport work
autrijus committed as r5246 02:45
thanks :)
autrijus sinks back into blissful sleep... & 02:46
rafl autrijus: OK, thanks. 02:47
svnbot6 r5246, autrijus++ | * rafl's patch to make Pugs's lib6 part install correctly under 02:49
r5246, autrijus++ | Debian into the sitescript and man* directory.
r5247, rafl++ | * Added me to AUTHORS
clkao summon autrijus 02:52
rafl What do you use to speed up compilation times? Is there a way to make ghc use ccache or something equal? 02:54
mugwump make unoptimised bypasses gcc for compilation, this makes it a lot faster 02:58
and it also skips a whole load of other optimising too 03:21
actually maybe that other optimising is what takes the time
mugwump is running make with ghc -v set in the makefile
theorbtwo ponders finishing his new build system. 03:25
Every time I think I'm done, though, I discover that I'm not.
dudley theorbtwo: While you're at it, write one for parrot that doesn't use Makefiles, so I can build it on VMS :-) 03:26
theorbtwo Yeah, well, it's not really so much new as drasticly altered. 03:27
rafl What is usr/lib/perl6/5.8/CORE/pugs/gen_prelude for? 03:37
theorbtwo rafl: It generates a prelude.hs. We probably shouldn't ship it. 03:39
orafu, at least, I see no reason to ship it.
mugwump install it, you mean ;) 03:41
QtPlatypus ?eval grammar foo {rule blacksheep {bar*}}; "barbar"~~ /<foo.blacksheep>/ 03:43
evalbot6 pugs: src/events.c:270: init_events_first: Assertion `rc == 0' failed.
QtPlatypus ?eval grammar foo {rule blacksheep {bar*}}; ? ("barbar"~~ /<blacksheep>/) 03:44
evalbot6 pugs: src/events.c:270: init_events_first: Assertion `rc == 0' failed.
QtPlatypus ?eval grammar foo {rule blacksheep {bar*}}; ? ("barbar"~~ /bar*/)
evalbot6 pugs: src/events.c:270: init_events_first: Assertion `rc == 0' failed.
QtPlatypus ?eval ? ("barbar"~~ /bar*/)
evalbot6 pugs: src/events.c:270: init_events_first: Assertion `rc == 0' failed.
QtPlatypus ?eval ? ("barbar"~~ /bar/)
evalbot6 pugs: src/events.c:270: init_events_first: Assertion `rc == 0' failed. 03:45
QtPlatypus Ok regex matching is broken in evalbot
rafl Hm, I can't see which rule installs gen_prelude.. 03:46
spinclad probably none. isn't it used in place? 03:56
rafl I think it's done by the pure_$(INSTALLDIRS)_install and util/src_to_blib.pl 03:59
Is there a manpage for pugs and pugscc somewhere? 04:24
spinclad ^ yes, what src_to_blib.pl is doing could well be more selective.
rafl Ah, pugscc has some pod. 04:25
spinclad: Right. But on which facts should it decide what to include and what not? Simply hardcoded paths?
spinclad i think that will take some input from lambdafolk... 04:26
rafl What's lambdafolk?
spinclad but i could see it turning into a long spelled-out list 04:27
haskellfolk
theorbtwo I think the current API for doing plugins needs all the hi and o files.
spinclad would it be enough to copy across .../*.hi and .../*.o? that wouldn't be a big change to src_to_blib 04:28
Darren_Duncan maybe this was mentioned here but I'm getting a Makefile.PL error ... can't generate ... Perl 6 ... for ... darwin ...notify ... Brian Ingerson / ingy 04:30
I assume this is due to an update in progress
theorbtwo We might need *.h as well, at which point there isn't much we don't have.
rafl Darren_Duncan: Well, I made some changes a short while ago. What's exactly the problem? 04:31
Darren_Duncan 'perl Makefile.PL' fails 04:32
spinclad there's *.hs, and gen_prelude* at least. question would be whether it's worth being more selective. eventually yes, i'd think.
rafl Darren_Duncan: Yes. What's the full error message you get?
Darren_Duncan one minute ...
Can't generate the correct Perl6 equivalent for: / field name: installsiteman3dir / osname: darwin / Please notify the maintainer of this code. (Brian Ingerson for now) 04:33
it says that following the standard 'parrot linking disabled'
theorbtwo find inc|xargs grep 'Please notify' 04:34
Darren_Duncan I noticed that a 'debian' directory was added recently ... was perhaps some functionality moved out of the generic directories and needs to be repeated for each OS? ... perhaps that's the case and 'darwin' wasn't done yet
rafl Darren_Duncan: No. Try to substitute installsiteman3dir in inc/PugsConfig.pm by siteman3dir. 04:35
Darren_Duncan file PugsConfig.pm; line 74 04:36
theorbtwo No, the debian directory just has stuff for making .deb files.
Darren_Duncan I updated lines 47 and 48, and now Makefile.PL doesn't give that error 04:38
it does throw some warnings about uninitialized var concatenation in Makefile.PL, though; line 242 04:39
spinclad installsiteman{1,3}dir are new, they may need some sort of setup on darwin. 04:40
rafl Darren_Duncan: Yes. You'll need to substitute that as well in the postable part of Makefile.PL.
Cool. The Debian packages are now lintian clean. :-) 04:43
revdiablo rafl++ 04:44
rafl Can anyone tell my why the blib(5) stuff is as a source package with Makefile.PL, MANIFEST, tests and stuff? 04:47
spinclad rafl++ # .debs are cool 04:52
revdiablo we've had .debs for a while, spinclad. rafl just fixed 'em up more better. :)
spinclad deb++ # better .debs are cool 04:53
yeah, i was just looking at debian/ earlier today, but wasn't near doing anything with it myself 04:54
revdiablo I've been building pugs into a .deb for a while, it seems to work fairly well. I think the changes rafl made are just to get it more compliant 04:56
rafl I'm not sure what to do about the -doc package. There are so much different formats of documentation there. Do you think I should convert it to something more uniform?
revdiablo: Yes. They were quite messy. They didn't even build in a pbuilder environment. 04:57
revdiablo I don't really know what pbuilder is, but I'm glad you cleaned them up regardless. :)
rafl That's a chroot for building packages. It only contains build-essential and required packages. 04:59
It's important that the package works with pbuilder. Otherwise the debian autobuilders can't build it if someone uploads pugs into the archive.
svnbot6 r5248, rafl++ | * Removed debian/docs 05:13
r5248, rafl++ | * Fixed Uploaders field
r5248, rafl++ | * Fixed Build-Deps
r5248, rafl++ | * Improved debian/copyright
r5248, rafl++ | * Improved debian/rules
QtPlatypus I'm thinking of writing "Str".trans from S05 as it doesn't seem to be implemented yet. Before I start on this where should I put the tests for it and where should the code go, somewhere in prelude? 05:15
Aankhen`` The tests for it could maybe go under t/builtins/? 05:19
Um. 05:21
pasteling "Aankhen``" at 203.101.1.28 pasted "perl Makefile.PL bombs on Win32" (29 lines, 1.2K) at sial.org/pbot/11558 05:22
chromatic I think someone broke exporting. 05:23
Check out ext/Test-Builder/t/010_Test_Builder_.t 05:24
rafl Aankhen``: Check out again and try again, please. 05:25
svnbot6 r5249, rafl++ | * s/installsiteman(1|3)dir/siteman$1dir/g
Aankhen`` OK.
Nope. 05:26
No go.
rafl Same error?
Aankhen`` Yes.
rafl Aankhen``: Can you please show me your %Config?
Aankhen`` Shall I nopaste it? 05:27
QtPlatypus Aankhen``: Thanks. 05:28
rafl Aankhen``: Please.
Aankhen`` Er... wait... do you just want `perl -MConfig -e "print %Config"`? 05:29
rafl Aankhen``: A more readable format would be better. Maybe using Data::Dumper. 05:30
Aankhen`` Ah, OK.
That was my second guess. :-P
ImustDIE is ghc required to get pasm/pir code from pugs?
chromatic Yes.
pasteling "Aankhen``" at 203.101.1.28 pasted "Perl 5 %Config" (972 lines, 36.5K) at sial.org/pbot/11559 05:31
ImustDIE can i change the path where it looks for ghc at?
chromatic Looks like setting the GHC environment variable will do it. 05:32
Before you run Makefile.PL, anyway. 05:33
ImustDIE i'm using the binary build from pixigreg.com/?pxperl on windows, so things are a little mixed around, i'll see if i can figure it out though 05:34
chromatic A quick grep showed that Perl6::MakeMaker::assert_ghc() looks like the likely place, ImustDIE. 05:35
ImustDIE thanks
rafl Aankhen``: Does it work now? 05:38
svnbot6 r5250, rafl++ | * Fix Makefile.PL for perl installations without $Config{installsiteman\ddir}
Aankhen`` checks.
Yay!
rafl Cool. :-)
Aankhen`` rafl++ rafl++
rafl Well, I also broke it this night.. rafl--; 05:40
Aankhen`` I prefer to let bygones be bygones. ;-)
chromatic Hm, export is not broken.
Function dispatch may be.
rafl Aankhen``: What perl are you using, btw? 05:44
Aankhen`` ActivePerl. 05:45
rafl Ah.
Aankhen`` I'm a big fan of ActiveState. ^_^
rafl Well, I'm not. Their perl doesn't have $Config{installsiteman3dir}.. 05:46
Aankhen`` Luckily, that doesn't affect me most of time. =) 05:47
ImustDIE chromatic: figured it out, thanks alot 05:51
chromatic You're welcome. Glad to help.
Aankhen`` rafl >> I hate to tell you this, but... 05:52
pasteling "Aankhen``" at 203.101.1.28 pasted "nmake install bombs" (18 lines, 774B) at sial.org/pbot/11561
rafl :-/ 05:53
Aankhen``: Can you show me the Makefile? 05:56
svnbot6 r5251, rafl++ | * Removed debian/pugs-doc.{docs,install}
r5251, rafl++ | * Cleaned up debian/rules
r5251, rafl++ | * Install documentation in the right place
r5251, rafl++ | * Fixed debian/changelog
pasteling "Aankhen``" at 203.101.1.28 pasted "Makefile" (1457 lines, 94K) at sial.org/pbot/11562 05:58
rafl Aankhen``: fixed? 06:02
svnbot6 r5252, rafl++ | * Added debian/pugs-doc.dirs
r5253, rafl++ | * Fix util/PugsConfig.pm for strange perl installations like ActiveState
chromatic Ahh, adding "module main" to the test file fixes things. 06:03
Perhaps it thinks it's in the wrong module.
gaal hi folks. i only have a couple of minutes but i saw prelude questions in the backlog 06:04
current state: worked around (See topic)
*two* preludes are generated now, and only one is used.
what is used now is the inlined p6 source code, which has to be compiled on every pugs load -- slow 06:05
this is src/gen_prelude.hs and has a makefile rule of its own
also (disabled but not removed completely) there's the precompiled predlude gen (util/gen_prelude.pl ; Pugs.PreludePC.hs) 06:06
rafl gaal: But src/gen_prelude isn't needed to run pugs, right? It's installed by default.. 06:07
gaal the scaffolding to load it works, but pugscc doesn't generate a complete enough dump yet, so it isn't in
rafl: ah. right, it shouldn't be installed, it's part of the build process only.
both of them.
do you install anythign from util/ in debian? 06:08
rafl gaal: OK. So I think there's a change to util/src_to_blib.pl needed. It currently installs everything.
gaal: What ways are there to install only the needed things?
gaal: Only the vim syntax highlighting, currently. 06:09
gaal i don't know :) haven't packaged any debs
exactly what i was thinking :) and perhaps the smoke stuff
anyway i must go, bbiab
just note the double link in the build process isn't actually useful right now, but will be soon, one hopes. 06:10
gaal waves &
svnbot6 r5254, rafl++ | * Run make test before installing 06:14
Aankhen`` rafl >> Seems to be working now, thanks. :-) 06:16
(r5253)
rafl Phew.. :-) 06:17
svnbot6 r5255, chromatic++ | Show name of sub with mismatched parameters in invocant binding failure message. 07:05
r5255, chromatic++ | Comment typo fix in Pugs.Lexer.
08:55 shachaf_ is now known as SHachaf, SHachaf is now known as Shachaf
QtPlatypus Is there a page that tells you how do unicode chars in emacs? 08:56
Nattfodd What about www.vim.org/ ;p 08:59
lumi "You can insert a character by its Unicode number using "M-x insert-ucs-character"." -- Does that help? 09:01
In mule-UCS I think
QtPlatypus finds ucs-insert 09:04
?eval sub test(*@_) { join "foo" @_};test("a","b","c","d"); 09:59
evalbot6 Error: unexpected "@" expecting operator, ",", ":", term postfix, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or "}"
QtPlatypus ?eval sub test(*@_) { join "foo",@_};test("a","b","c","d");
evalbot6 'afoobfoocfood'
QtPlatypus ?eval sub test(*@_) { join "foo",@_};test("a" => "b","c" => "d");
evalbot6 ''
QtPlatypus Is that a bug? 10:00
JaffaCake I can't build pugs: "Perl v6.0.0 required--this is only v5.8.0, stopped at /home/simonmar/tmp/Perl6-Pugs-6.2.7/blib/lib/File/Find.pm line 3." 11:14
can anyone shed any light?
jp-autark I've had the exact same error, getting a newer perl helped. 11:17
as in 5.8.7 or something.
although, it was another module which complained, not File::Find.
pjcj seems that perl5 is trying to run the perl6 libraries 11:19
(are you allowed to run unix at microsoft?) ;-) 11:21
Arathorn i'm sure the Mac BU at M$ do so occasionally ;) 11:22
(and the CLR freebsd dudes) 11:23
JaffaCake pjcj: shhhh :) 11:25
Aankh|Clone I really don't like Java. 11:26
The concept is interesting, but I absolutely dislike the numerous crashes.
Arathorn i hate the jar dependency/classloader hell :( 11:27
Aankh|Clone I am blissfully ignorant of that particular hell. =)
Anyway.
Aankh|Clone returns to jumping around and shooting people.
rafl I'd like to see utils/src_to_blib.pl changed to not to copy files you won't need at runtime into blib{,6} (for example gen_prelude). Can anyone do that change or tell me a heuristic to decide which files to copy and which not? 11:29
svnbot6 r5256, rafl++ | * debian/control: better Description for pugs-doc
r5256, rafl++ | * debian/rules: Install some examples with pugs-doc
QtPlatypus Can anyone tell me why a slurpy array will not slurp up pairs? 11:33
pdcawley Aren't they taken to be part of the slurpy hash? 11:37
QtPlatypus ?eval sub test(*@_) { join "foo",@_};test("a" => "b","c" => "d"); 11:39
evalbot6 ''
QtPlatypus They should be but appren'y don't.
Arathorn *.bbc.co.uk is comically dead 11:53
but on the plus side, we get the olympics. hoorah
masak is happy because the proposed law on European patents was not accepted 11:58
software patents somehow don't seem like a good idea to me 11:59
QtPlatypus looks supprized "Wow! I thought that was one we had lost."
Nattfodd happily hands out the olympics to Arathorn 12:00
Arathorn happily watches his council tax quadruple 12:03
masak QtPlatypus: nope, they really do listen over there in Brussels 12:04
plus, I think they were overwhelmed by the interest in the issue on the part of programmers in Europe 12:05
osfameron also, it helped that they were pissed off about the Commission 12:06
trying to steamroller the bill through.
masak osfameron: yeah, that wasn't very nice 12:08
Arathorn hopefully it won't end up with a comedy rush-the-bill-through-at-3am Patriot Act stylee 12:10
Limbic_Region seen autrijus 12:13
jabbot Limbic_Region: autrijus was seen 9 hours 27 minutes 56 seconds ago
Limbic_Region oh - so he did come back to the land of the living 12:14
masak yep, he's underclocked though 12:18
sounds like a contradiction in terms: "underclocked autrijus" 12:19
QtPlatypus masak: Can you point me at a sight about its falure? 12:32
masak sure 12:34
www.forbes.com/work/feeds/ap/2005/0...24966.html 12:35
QtPlatypus Thanks, it wasn't on groklaw or slashdot.
A 648-14 vote. Damn that wasn't just rejected, it was massively rejected. 12:36
Nattfodd QtPlatypus: yes, the bad guys voted like us because they were fearing too many "amendments" 12:38
(don't know the english word)
QtPlatypus Thats the correct english word 12:40
masak kept calling the MEPs yesterday to make sure they understood the gravity of the situation 12:42
they did
geoffb cheers 12:50
That's damn good news
geoffb has practically gone into "Hear No Evil" mode with all the bad news of late 12:51
It's refreshing to get a tidbit of good news for once.
Nattfodd geoffb: with olympics on London, that makes two good news on the same day
double cheers 12:52
geoffb :-)
castaway that one depends on your definite of "good" :)
masak also on your definition of "news"
Nattfodd castaway: I'm french :p
geoffb My definition of good olympics news is "NIMBY" -- my wife suffered through that when the olympics were in Atlanta, and it apparently sucked 12:53
castaway heh, Net 12:54
oops Nattfodd
NIMBY?
theorbtwo Not In My Back Yard.
castaway ah
geoffb Not In My BackYard
pdcawley NIMBY is Not In My Back Yard
geoffb wheee, great minds typing alike
(or near 'nuff)
theorbtwo isn't sure he qualifies as a great mind. 12:55
castaway ponders if Geoff is a brit
geoffb You're here, aren't you?
castaway thwaps theorbtwo 12:56
geoffb castaway, I'm named after Chaucer, and my blood is about as Brit as it comes (English, Scottish, Welsh, and a bit of Dutch), but I'm umpteenth-generation American
castaway durnit :)
geoffb castaway, ?
kungfuftr freaks out at the amount of organisational stuff he's been handed at $work
castaway kungfuftr: I hope thats not indirectly my fault :)
QtPlatypus geoffb: I liked it when the olympics where in sydney.
castaway geoffb: ooch, my radar failing again, somehow it sounded like it 12:57
.oO( "sounded" -> "read" - whatever)
kungfuftr castaway: heh, i blame the boss... but yeah... bigger team means more organisational stuff
*sob*
pdcawley I think Atlanta's held up as the byword in crap olympics isn't it?
Sort of rewrote the "What not to do" playbook.
geoffb castaway, ah! *chuckle*
castaway hugs kungfuftr
geoffb pdcawley, wouldn't doubt it. 12:58
kungfuftr notes to give castaway lots of work when she arrives
castaway eep! 12:59
castaway smuggles theorbtwo in and gives him half ,)
geoffb My experience with Atlanta is limited, but the only thing I know of that it has going for it is a strong alternative sexuality community -- which you just gotta applaud in the middle of the US deep south. That takes guts. 13:00
castaway Atlanta++
masak karma Atlanta 13:08
jabbot masak: Atlanta has neutral karma
masak Atlanta++
rafl karma rafl 13:09
jabbot rafl: rafl has neutral karma
geoffb karma Atlanta 13:11
jabbot geoffb: Atlanta has neutral karma
geoffb hmmm, jabbot karma seems fu
Does perlbot watch it?
perlbot, karma Atlanta
perlbot Karma for Atlanta: 2
jabbot geoffb: Atlanta has neutral karma
geoffb perlbot, karma rafl 13:12
perlbot Karma for rafl: 25
jabbot geoffb: rafl has neutral karma
geoffb jabbot needs to learn to ignore things specifically aimed at another bot . . . .
QtPlatypus perlbot, karma qtplatypus 13:13
perlbot Karma for qtplatypus: 12
jabbot QtPlatypus: qtplatypus has neutral karma
masak jabbot, specifically ignore things aimed for other bots
jabbot masak: Tell me more about that.
masak :)
jabbot, what i mean is that when i'm talking to other bots, i don't want you to interrupt us 13:14
jabbot masak: äŗ†č§£
masak laughs
QtPlatypus blinks 13:15
theorbtwo jabbot, what? 13:19
jabbot theorbtwo: what is it
theorbtwo jabbot, it's nothing.
jabbot theorbtwo: Tell me more about that.
osfameron jabbot does Eliza?
masak jabbot, that goes for others as well. it is not considered good manners to speak when others are conversing 13:20
jabbot masak: hmm
masak jabbot, think about it
jabbot masak: That is interesting. Please continue.
masak jabbot, i just want you to respect when others are talking
jabbot masak: We were discussing you -- not me.
masak we were?
geoffb If we hooked jabbot up to emacs' psychatrist mode, I wonder if jabbot would learn anything
masak :) 13:21
geoffb Oh, those last couple of jabbot responses are pretty much right out of the Eliza dict
castaway nudges theorbtwo (why is the IM window dead?)
Arathorn phew 14:30
Arathorn can breathe again
pdcawley why do you think if you hooked jabbot up to emacs' psychiatris mode, you wonder if jabbot would learn anything? 14:31
masak pdcawley: is why do you think if I hooked jabbot up to emacs' psychiatris mode, I wonder if jabbot would learn anything why you have come here? 14:35
Arathorn tell me more about that
masak we were discussing you -- not me 14:36
pdcawley masak: I'm asking the questions.
pdcawley wonders if it'd be possible to write a nicecop/nastycop version of Eliza.
masak pdcawlay: why do you think you're asking the questions?
pdcawley: there's always parry, the psychiatric patient bot 14:38
Arathorn fisher king ref? 14:39
masak socialfiction.org/scrabble/BOTWRITER.html 14:40
www.stanford.edu/group/SHR/4-2/text...ogues.html
Arathorn looks like it is, then 14:44
Arathorn needs to watch that again
eric256 almost got on hear to ask if a bug involving .= had already been reported.....then i woke up and corrected the code to ~=.....i have a feeling that one is going to bite me a few more times ;) 14:46
Limbic_Region notes that the build of Pugs speeded up dramatically when he closed his mail application and his browser and wonders how much memory the thing actually consumes 14:58
geoffb Limbic_Region, a LOT. Like, a very large amount. On my box, about 135 MB for UNoptimized, and I'm not sure optimized will even finish if I have firefox running at the same time 15:36
(that's Debian on i386) 15:37
You know, come to think of it, that was just the size of the ghc and ld processes individually, I've never taken the time to try to determine the maximum memory footprint of make and all its children combined 15:44
hmmm . . . anyone know an easy way to do that?
integral has only ever watches with top 15:45
ghc and gcc (each) reached about 750MB when optimising 15:46
sili dude
that's
crazy
integral takes about 120 minutes too
sili fo sheezy 15:47
eric256 whats the news on getting prelude.pm pre compiled? 15:57
gaal|work eric. backlog around ten hours ago. summary: not yet. 15:59
svnbot6 r5257, iblech++ | * Usual svn properties added to new files in ext/, docs/, and debian/.
r5257, iblech++ | * debian/control -- s:g/Perl6/Perl 6/ (consistency with README, Perl6::Pugs,
r5257, iblech++ | and other files).
eric256 hehe. okay. just curious. i was trying to catch up on what i've missed, any new wow factor with OO? like modifying existing classes, builtins not clobbering user defines etc? 16:03
svnbot6 r5258, iblech++ | debian/changelog -- Fixed a datestamp line to conform to parsechangelog's 16:05
r5258, iblech++ | regular expression.
r5259, Stevan++ | Perl6-MetaModel : moved much of what was in Perl6::MetaModel to Perl6::Class; so now classes are constructed by Perl6::Class and Perl6::MetaModel is just a thin wrapper around the them to make using it easier; 17:59
wolverian (european union parliament)++ 18:06
Aankhen`` ([accidentally] clueful politicians)++ 18:14
spinclad now if only we can do the same in the US. seems like a tougher corporocracy to affect, though. 18:17
revdiablo (using good news as an opportunity to bitch about bad news)-- 18:19
Aankhen`` Yeesh... people complain about 31 degrees?
It's 45 degrees here in India!
And Orissa is 55 degrees!
pdcawley coroporocracy? What's wrong with Oligarchy?
wolverian corporacy is the term I've seen, besides oligarchy 18:20
or corporatism 18:21
gaal got a link to the eu story?
wolverian it is a more specific name than oligarchy
Aankhen`` [21:38:03] -lilo- [Global Notice] Whoops, one more try.... the last story was months old, this is the current one: news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4655955.stm
wolverian gaal: www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/06/eu_bins_swpat/
Aankhen`` (gaal)
wolverian oh, and also corporatocracy 18:23
but that's getting just hard to type
gaal corpiratocracy :)
revdiablo corporobotocraticologism
spinclad i wouldn't say bitch about bad news, rather whine about bad conditions. me-- 18:26
wolverian oxymoron: corporational
spinclad (amazing vote)++ (issue not coming back for a good while)++ 18:31
lightstep all you hippies want to do is stop innovation 18:34
lightstep is a fat, white bastard today 18:35
spinclad lightstep has it backwards
Aankhen`` perlbot karma me
perlbot Karma for me: -4
lightstep perlbot karma me 18:36
perlbot Karma for me: -4
lightstep perlbot karma lightstep
perlbot Karma for lightstep: 8
lightstep perlbot karma c
perlbot Karma for c: 635
Khisanth spinclad: he is a white, fat bastard?
Aankhen`` perlbot karma Aankhen
perlbot Karma for Aankhen: 159
Aankhen`` perlbot karma Aankhen``
perlbot Karma for Aankhen``: 18
Aankhen`` perlbot top 10 karma
perlbot The top 10 karma entries: autrijus: 1062, iblech: 778, C: 635, stevan: 167, Aankhen: 159, mugwump: 131, gaal: 129, nothingmuch: 116, putter: 115, chromatic: 73
Aankhen`` Wah.
lightstep Khisanth, i flipped the name of the book
svnbot6 r5260, Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - Perl6::Object now has the proper bless -> CREATE -> BUILDALL -> BUILD progression of events for instance creation; this also means that we have moved instance creation out of the Metaclass and it now the responsibility of the base Object class; 19:22
wolverian stevan++ # wow 19:29
svnbot6 r5261, Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - cleaned up a test to use $class.bless() to make sure that works (as that is how it is supposed to work); Perl6::Object really needs to be self hosting soon :P
wolverian I'm going to have to take a look at that
sweet progress :)
stevan wolverian: its in Perl5 right now 19:30
it will be the runtime support for the PIL -> Perl5 compiler luqui and nothingmuch are working on
wolverian what does the compiler compile down to? 19:31
perl5?
stevan yup
it parses PIL then emits Perl5 code
wolverian how hard would it be to use the metamodel to output PIR?
(or PASM)
(or PAST, or whatever :) 19:32
stevan the metamodel wont do that
wolverian well, okay - what I meant is that is it pluggable enough to be used in such a manner?
output agnostic if you will
stevan the PIL parser can emit PIR/PASM/whatever just by building the emitter
wolverian right
stevan the metamodel is the runtime object support
wolverian and the metamodel has nothing to do with that?
stevan not really
wolverian right, so we need to compile it down to PIR too? :) 19:33
(ponie..)
(if I want to use it to compile down to parrot, that is)
stevan ideally Parrot will support most of it already, so we wont have to do as much as we are doing in Perl5
wolverian I guess ,yeah
s/ ,/, /
stevan but if you want to compile perl6 to another language (Perl5, javascript, etc) you will need to implement the metamodel there
wolverian unless that language runs on aprrot 19:34
s,ap,pa, # argh
stevan yes
wolverian is the PIL parser being written?
stevan yes, by luqui (Luke Palmer) and nothingmuch 19:35
or at least it *was* being written at the hackathon
wolverian is it in source control?
I mean, public
stevan should be in the Pugs repo
wolverian ah, thanks
stevan they were writting it in Perl6
wolverian hmm. using pugs's perl5 interface to use the metamodel? 19:36
or is that another component entirely?
(I mean, the component that uses the metamodel..)
do you ever get a headache over things like this?
stevan LOL 19:37
all the time
wolverian heh.
I think a schematic of the components and their relations would be nice
if such a plan exists yet
stevan when PIL is compiled to Perl5, it is compiled into code which uses the Perl6::MetaModel 19:38
wolverian ah, right.
is the actual compiler interlinked with the parser, or are they completely separate+
s,+,?,
stevan lib/P5-PIL-Run/ actually has some early versions of the base types (Array, Hash, Scalar)
I am not sure how the PIL parser/compiler works, I didnt write it :) 19:39
wolverian right, I'd have to look at it myself :)
I'll do that later tonight
I'll try if this copy protection this game comes with will block me from playing it on this computer too now 19:40
stevan ext/Perl-Compiler is where the PIL stuff is
wolverian (I bought the game)
thanks!
stevan your welcome :) 19:41
Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { sub bar (::?CLASS $self: ) { .ref } }; Foo.new.bar 19:45
evalbot6 Error: unexpected ":" expecting formal parameter, end of input or ")"
Aankhen`` When did that break?
gaal do you mean ./ref? 19:46
Aankhen`` No, I mean ::?CLASS.
?eval class Foo { sub bar () { .ref } } Foo.new.bar
evalbot6 ::Str
Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { sub bar () { ./ref } } Foo.new.bar
evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "$?SELF"
Aankhen`` O_O
gaal oops :)
Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { sub bar () { ./ref } } my $foo = Foo.new(); $foo.bar 19:47
evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "$?SELF"
Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { sub bar () { .ref } } my $foo = Foo.new(); $foo.bar
evalbot6 ::Str
Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { sub bar () { .ref } } my $foo = Foo.new(10); $foo.bar
evalbot6 Error: Can't use positionals in default new constructor
Aankhen`` Riiight...
gaal >> Do you have enough Haskell know-how to reapply 4496? I think it got lost somewhere... 19:54
gaal 4496....? *looks* 19:55
Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { sub bar (::("?CLASS $self: ) { .ref } }; Foo.new.bar 19:56
evalbot6 Error: unexpected ":" expecting formal parameter, end of input or ")"
Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { sub bar (::("?CLASS") $self: ) { .ref } }; Foo.new.bar
evalbot6 Error: unexpected ":" expecting formal parameter, end of input or ")"
Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { sub bar (("::?CLASS") $self: ) { .ref } }; Foo.new.bar
evalbot6 Error: unexpected "(" expecting formal parameter, ":" or ")"
gaal when/why was it reverted? 19:57
Aankhen`` I dunno. 19:58
gaal hmm, i see some of it at least has been moved to Pugs.Eval.Var 19:59
(the getMagical stuff)
the Parser hunk, it seems to have been either refactored or lost 20:01
but i don't really understand what it does. 20:02
iblech about?
Aankh|Clone Apparently not. :-(
Ah well, I gotta go sleep.
G'night.
gaal night.
stevan hey gaal 20:16
gaal heya
stevan hows life?
gaal harmonic.
stevan you are clearly not in jail :)
which is a good thing
gaal which is to say, up and down :)
i am indeed not in jail. 20:17
svnbot6 r5262, Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - added support for DESTROY submethods as well as DESTROYALL support in Perl6::Object; this is also tested in a new test file t/03_DESTORY.t to confirm it works in the correct order
gaal and you, my friend, are not stoppable :)
stevan actually the $work T1 is down
once it comes back up, ... I will be stopped :) 20:18
gaal dos to increase productivity :)
stevan LOL
shhhh
dont tell anyone :P
stevan need to remember to hide those wire cutters in case the $boss comes around snooping 20:19
gaal T1, that used to be insanely fast 20:20
stevan yeah, I brought one of the servers home, so the $client can still access it
gaal well it's still not bad if it's symmetric
stevan and the $client was like "wow, did you guys get an upgrade" 20:21
cause my cable modem is better then the T1 basically :P
kolibrie but you didn't bring home the dev box, huh? :)
gaal stupid local economy permits ADSL to be very A. 1:8 up/down
stevan kolibrie: nope :)
gaal or worse actually
stevan gaal: ouch 20:22
kolibrie: the dev box has a number of projects on it, so it would not have been okay to take home
wolverian gaal: I think the ADSL spec doesn't go any higher than that.
kolibrie stevan: just don't get into a chip dilemna 20:23
gaal i have 1.5m down and 96k up.... or is it 128 now?
i feel i ought to know such things 20:24
but apparently at the end of long days i forget
stevan kolibrie: not to worry, we are small and only engage in legal activities :)
kolibrie :) 20:25
stevan I gave up working for sleazy bosses when I left advertising :) 20:26
gaal loop { advertising-- }
stevan gaal++ # :) 20:27
kolibrie gaal: forever...
wolverian gaal: ew, that is a horrible upload 20:28
gaal best you can get for commodity prices around here.
wolverian gaal: the ratio here is 2:1 generally, until 1mb upload over which it doesn't go (so I have 8mb down, 1mb up)
gaal: I feel your pain. :/
(1mb upload sucks too, though.)
stevan can't wait till let finish laying the fiber-to-the-house up here 20:29
wolverian (now they're even selling ADSL2 connections with 24mb down and still 1mb up. what the hell?)
gaal however, the service is reliable enough and i got a static ip for free.
autarch I have 7 down, 896 up
wolverian gaal: do you live in sweden? :)
gaal nope
autarch it's only $80/month with 8 static ips (5 usable)
wolverian oh, right, israel? I always forget these things
(countries, pff. who cares?)
gaal that's all right, it isn't like i know where you live :-p
autarch well, _some_ people care way way too much 20:30
wolverian autarch: that's a nice bunch of ips :) I only get five.
autarch: what does '5 usable' mean though?
gaal subnet?
autarch it means I have to allocate one for broadcast, one for network address, and one for the gateway
gaal wow, that's a tight netmask
autarch so I have 5 left for whatever
wolverian ah, right
autarch it's pretty cool to be able to have my own little subnet though
gaal # /29? :)
autarch I dunno, I always type 255.255.255.248
I can't do the math implied by /XX
too hard 20:31
gaal three bits off 32
autarch I'm a fucking music major!
gaal lol
autarch I can count to like, 12
gaal so you know integer math intuitively
and hey, what'll i say
autarch no, music requires fractions
but not real numbers
I mean, you have to be able to figure out 5/3 and stuff like that if you want to be a real badass
gaal rhythm, or harmony? 20:32
autarch rhythm
polyrhythms, to be exact
gaal scary
i mean, great, but scary
gaal puts on foxtrot
(9/8) 20:33
there's a cool bill bruford quote... let's see 20:34
autarch foxtrot isn't 9/8, is it?
gaal "[T]he gig I have as the drummer in King Crimson is one of the few gigs in rock ōæ½x91nōæ½x92 roll where itōæ½x92s even r e m o t e l y possible to play anything in 17/16 and stay in a decent hotel."
autrarch, the bit called "apocalypse in 9/8" is :) 20:35
autarch is this King Crimson?
gaal Genesis
autarch ah, they don't count
early Genesis, I assume 20:36
gaal the quote was from king crimson's drummer though
yes.
autarch normally foxtrots are in 4/4, as are the vast majority of dance music (except waltzes) 20:37
I should say _modern_ dance music
gaal most western music is 4/4 no?
autarch yes 20:38
modern western music
gaal pictures from an exhibition is all wandery and changes every two bars
osfa even most indian music is, surely?
autarch no
osfa iirc it's in "teental" which is 16 beats, which sounds about 4/4
autarch A heck of a lot of classical Indian music is in 17
gaal dave brubeck liked to play around
autarch or is it 19?
this is not my area of expertise ;)
osfa oh, I did a whole 6 lessons on sitar 20:39
so I'm highly qualified to talk about it :-)
autarch heh
gaal i have to study this some. i never told the difference beterrn 4/4 and 8/8
autarch gaal: I've never seen anything actually written as 8/8
gaal is it just when the beat comes?
autarch err 20:40
gaal okay, then 2/2
Arathorn bartok did a bunch of 8/8 stuff
gaal or 3/4 vs 6/8
autarch well, the difference is that in one there's 2 beats per bar, and in the other there's 4
Arathorn in order to mix gracefully with 3/8, 5/8, 7/8 etc.
autarch 6/8 is generally 2 beats per bar
2 beats of triplets
Arathorn: ah, good point
I bet I even have some scores of his with 8/8 times
gaal 3/8? what's that like?
autarch one beat per bar, usually 20:41
but it really depends on the context
see, with bartok it's kind of complicated
Arathorn some of his violin duets have the first violin in 3/8 and the 2nd in 5/8 at the same time :)
autarch heh
the best is George Crumb scores. Lots of 13/64 and stuff like that
gaal man, that's like befunge in music.
Arathorn (and not just to be obtuse - the weighting of the individual bars does actually make sense)
gaal s/befunge/malbogle/ 20:42
autarch not really
Arathorn and the beat itself is in sync - just not the, uh, headers
autarch you have to see it
if you come over I'll show you ;)
gaal i think i'm fine under this table :) 20:43
Arathorn whilst we're utterly offtopic, i don't suppose anyone is an iptables god?
autarch someone probably is, but not me
gaal autarch, you're... west coast? 20:44
autarch Minneapolis 20:45
gaal north coast! :-) 20:46
autarch heh
I live right near Lake Calhoun ;)
Arathorn wc.pima.edu/~lsolomon/diss7.htm is a rather fun paper analysing the, uh, geometry of bartok's music, fwiw
cwest seen autarch 20:47
jabbot cwest: autarch was seen 31 seconds ago
autarch The last paper I ever wrote in grad school was an analysis of a Bartok string quartet
cwest er...
seen autrijus
jabbot cwest: autrijus was seen 18 hours 1 minutes 10 seconds ago
autarch heh
cwest but hi, nonetheless :-)
autarch hi
gaal wow, those signatures look right out of metamagical themas 20:49
i like how the G clefts were appropriated into Bs :)
cwest So there are some very dicey bits to consider when writing a javascript interpreter to run on Perl 5/6 20:50
gaal autograph signatures that is, not musical ones
cwest Basically JavaScript is too primitive and some guesses have to be made about what to do for certain situations.
stevan cwest: Javascript on Perl5?!?!?!
whatever for??
cwest Because I can?
stevan :) good enough reason 20:51
cwest Because targetting Perl 5 is easier than Perl 6, at least right now.
For me, just because. :-)
I was curious, though, if Parse::RecDescent was stable under the use p5: style of things. ;-)
stevan so is it pure perl? or are you linking in a C lib?
cwest No, I'll just write it. JS is an easy language. 20:52
stevan cwest: Pugs is all about instability :)
cwest hee
gaal p:rd is slow :(
stevan is this for JSAN? or something else?
cwest gaal: Throw One Away
stevan: It's kind of for jsan.
stevan gaal: P:RD + Pugs would be nasty
gaal cwest++ # indeed
cwest Here's my master plan.
I want to get spidermonkey out of mozilla, replace it with parrot. 20:53
Then we've got client side perl scripting, the holy grail.
stevan nice
cwest All I have to do is write a rock solid javascript interpreter.
autarch I think the only thing keeping me from going crazy at $work is Judy and Mary
cwest Then you can distribute the Perl DBI.
Khisanth just use IE!
autarch thank you, J & M
stevan I thought Mozilla already was thinking about using Parrot?
Khisanth runs
gaal stevan,not sure p:rd under pugs will take so much of a hit, since it doesn't cross interpreter boundaries much
cwest stevan: Yeah but someone has to do the work. 20:54
stevan ah
cwest: and that someone (currently) is you :)
cool
cwest I want var dbh = connect DBI('dbi:SQLite:cache.db');
hell I want var mime = new Email.MIME(email_string);
gaal autarch, w* are J & M?
cwest And also I want to be able to smoke test JSAN. 20:55
stevan wants system("rm -rf *.*"); from client side JS
autarch gaal: a J-pop/rock band
stevan cwest: actually we have been thinking about JSAN smoke testing at work
autarch it's relentlessly cheery, so it keeps me from going psycho over our shit code/processes/equipment/...
cwest stevan: I won't be including Perl's core function into this. ;-)
stevan cwest: your no fun :P
cwest This is JavaScript. The core is tiny, everything is an object. You should be familiar with that concept. ;-) 20:56
robkinyon cwest: stevan's trying to pawn my crazy ideas off as his again. :-)
gaal interesting
stevan cwest: I was a JS hacker before a perl hacker, but my JS knowledge kind of stopped at 1.2
cwest however if you got a user to run: JSAN.use('perl:File.Path'); rmtree(...); 20:57
I didn't consider that.
Oh well. Not My Problem.
gaal client-side perl scripting is indeed great - but can we just make the web go away already? :)
cwest If I want a fast parser then I'll write it all with regular expressions.
I can see this thing loaded with (?{{ foo($^N) }})... 20:58
That'd be *wonderful*. :-/
Anyway, I have to have a proof of concept by oscon, which means targetting Perl5.
If people can play with it then maybe they'll get involved. 20:59
stevan cwest: what about smoke testing JSAN stuff in browsers?
cwest stevan: That's hard. How are you going to control your browsers?
How are you going to get dependencies? 21:00
stevan wonders if there is maybe a #jsan so we dont bore all the #perl6 folks
cwest irc.perl.org/#jsan actually
robkinyon don't worry about dependencies
my bigger concern is running the browsers
cwest yeah, that's hard
stevan cwest: robkinyon and I were disucss this the other day
cwest join #jsan on irc.perl.org
robkinyon heading there right now
stevan ok, be there in a sec
Arathorn ecmascript-on-parrot would also be very cool for the flash community, i guess 21:13
Arathorn dreams of scripting flash in perl6
cwest I intend to make it happen. :-)
Limbic_Region seen autrijus 21:48
jabbot Limbic_Region: autrijus was seen 19 hours 2 minutes 29 seconds ago
stevan Limbic_Region: I think he is still recovering from jet-lag 21:50
Limbic_Region no worries - was just going to share my really weird Prelude.hs bug/solution 21:51
I journaled it - so I would guess he will catch it 21:52
22:19 Limbic_Region_ is now known as Limbic_Region
Limbic_Region fglock - I am still looking 22:23
someone with meta commit privs mind reminding me where to assign commit bit to new member? 22:24
Limbic_Region thought that there was an admin tab
but there doesn't appear to be one
oh - I see the problem 22:27
I am not staying logged in
probably a firewall/browser security problem 22:28
be right with you fglock
midnightparadox when is perl6 coming
Limbic_Region it is here now 22:29
midnightparadox ??
how can i install it
Limbic_Region visit pugscode.org 22:30
fglock - invite sent - welcome aboard 22:31
fglock thanks Limbic_Region
Limbic_Region has been having bizarro issues with his firewall since the last patch he applied 22:32
sorry for the wait
midnightparadox is perl6 development or stable? 22:34
obra development
PerlJam stable development
:)
revdiablo a stable level of insanity 22:36
Limbic_Region midnightparadox - the short answer is that perl6 isn't out yet and there is no date when it can be expected 22:38
midnightparadox 10x
Limbic_Region the long answer is much longer
but it is sufficiently advanced to begin implementation which has been going on since 2005-02-01 22:39
midnightparadox is there relation between Topaz and perl6 22:42
autarch sure, chip ;)
midnightparadox some say the projects will unite? 22:43
Arathorn i thought topaz was an ex-parrot 22:46
so to speak
Limbic_Region midnightparadox - how much do you know about Topaz? 22:51
midnightparadox very very few
i am a perl beginner 22:52
just wondered
Limbic_Region ok - well then there isn't much sense in explaining the relationship
midnightparadox ok
Limbic_Region Topaz was a fun project of re-writing perl in C++ by Chip
he abandoned it got a lot of lessons learned
autarch topaz is no longer really a live thing, AFAIK
long dead
Limbic_Region chip is however the newly appointent architect lead on parrot 22:53
midnightparadox so then
Limbic_Region which will be the virtual machine that runs p6
midnightparadox any ide suggestion for perl
Limbic_Region see www.parrotcode.org www.pugscode.org www.poniecode.org for more info
midnightparadox - IDEs for perl are hard 22:54
it is said that only perl can parse perl
but
there is hope
midnightparadox just coloring the code is enough
Limbic_Region then you can use vim
or emacs
www.perl.com/pub/a/2005/06/09/ppi.html
PPI will make p5 IDEs that work almost all the time a real possibility 22:55
osfa though ppi doesn't help you to know, for example
my $x = $object->method->othermethod;
is. e.g. you won't get intellisense object tree walking with it 22:56
ImustDIE quick syntax question... how do you do references in perl6? 23:00
and are they always $ like they used to be or would you use @/% for arrays/hashes? 23:01
gaal i don't think taking a ref has changed.
though there are more ways to do it now.
ImustDIE k 23:02
Limbic_Region ImustDIE - the big change isn't in getting a reference but in dereferencing
which will be automatic
ImustDIE ah
Limbic_Region except when it isn't
ImustDIE will?
Limbic_Region and when it isn't - you will use . instead of -> 23:03
gaal ?eval my %h = 1 => 2; my $hr = %h; $hr.perl
evalbot6 '{(\'1\' => 2)}'
Limbic_Region so - $hashref<foo> works
gaal (the .perl shouldn't have been there)
Limbic_Region but you can explicitly say $hashref.<foo> if you want too
ImustDIE what do you mean will though? does pugs not automatically deref yet?
gaal it does.
Limbic_Region ImustDIE - pugs does when it is supposed to 23:04
gaal ?eval my %h = 1 => 2; my $hr = %h; say $hr<1>
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&say"
Limbic_Region the cases where it doesn't are still fuzzy
gaal my %h = 1 => 2; my $hr = %h; $hr<1>
ImustDIE k
Limbic_Region ie edge cases are still being worked out
gaal ?eval my %h = 1 => 2; my $hr = %h; say $hr<1>
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&say"
gaal grrr!
ImustDIE alright time to go play with some code ;-) thanks for the help
gaal ?eval my %h = 1 => 2; my $hr = %h; $hr<1>
evalbot6 \2
gaal thank you, fingers!
Limbic_Region it looks like leo has made significant progress on calling convention changes to parrot but commited it in a new branch 23:06
good news
mugwump ?eval safe_say "hello"
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&safe_say"
mugwump ?eval say_safe "hello" 23:07
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&say_safe"
ImustDIE oh got one more Q, then I promise I'll leave you alone for a while.... how do you add a method to an existing class? 23:08
Limbic_Region ?eval say 'wtf'
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&say"
ImustDIE if there's a manual i should be finding this stuff in just yell at me to read it but i havent been able to find much
Limbic_Region ImustDIE - have you got your bible handy? 23:10
Perl6::Bible that is
ImustDIE i was browsing it on cpan, is there an easy way to search it?
ah i found the section on objects 23:11
Limbic_Region ImustDIE - getting the table of contents is easy 23:17
which gives a summary of what each chapter is
in fact, it follows the "Programming Perl" (also known as the Camel Book)
doing a keyword search isn't quite as easy
if you have a *nix like environment you can grep the source easy enough though 23:18
ImustDIE yeah, my fault, i just completely missed the table of contents and was blindly poking around 23:19
Arathorn i really wish that S29 was more tied down
mugwump Arathorn: so tie it down!
Arathorn i really don't feel qualified :/ 23:20
Limbic_Region well - let someone more qualified bitch slap you when you screw up
Arathorn and moreover surely it should be architected by a single person rather than wiki-flinging-stylee?
Limbic_Region but until then - drive on
no Arathon
err - Arathorn even
are you on the p6.language list
I bitched about this very thing not too long ago
Arathorn i lurk there 23:21
Limbic_Region the design documents need to be opened up to the general public for the purposes of expedition
Arathorn i agree wholeheartedly with the wiki-anarchic development for implementation - but not design
Limbic_Region well - the design docs are under revision control
Arathorn where a million monkeys (especially ones as low down the evolutionary ladder as I) aren't necessarily going to manage to write Hamlet :/
Limbic_Region anyone can submit patches
but commits are restricted to @larry
well - specifically pmichaud since he volunteered to be moderator 23:22
Limbic_Region tries to find the thread on google groups
Arathorn nods
revdiablo Arathorn: well, the thing is, a lot of discussion goes on on p6l, but doesn't get documented
Arathorn: so if those million monkeys were following p6l, and submitting patches according to what they saw discussed... it would probably be helpful 23:23
Arathorn well, if it's a matter of trying to document the current state of banter on p6l, that's obviously a different matter from just chucking in your personal opinion of what your favourite function prototypes should look like 23:24
revdiablo Arathorn: I don't think anyone is suggesting the latter (at least I hope not)
Arathorn nods.
just a shame that there's not scope to balance the builtins-implementation in the way that Larry hath mediated the linguistics of the language itself 23:26
Limbic_Region Arathorn - here you go
groups-beta.google.com/group/perl.p...984b53aa6e
that sums up my feelings on the matter as well as the process to get changes to the documents that you want 23:27
Arathorn ah, i remember reading that thread now
Arathorn reparses
i wonder why everyone (including me) isn't leaping in throwing patches at him, then 23:28
whilst theoretically it sounds like it should work fine - in practice it doesn't seem to be 100% there...
Limbic_Region well - you see why I stopped
I asked a question
and instead of getting an answer
the thread spun off on a tangent 23:29
despite my best effort to keep it on track and not get warnocked
it is hard to fill out an outline if there is no reference material other than that which is in people's heads
Arathorn nods.
Limbic_Region wanders off
Limbic_Region wanders back in 23:31
nothingmuch goes to the shower 23:32
jet lag has fucked me up... I can't wake up till noon, can't fall asleep till 4
Khisanth votes for performing a mind-rip on those people :) 23:33
mugwump nothingmuch: get some 5-HTP or Melatonin, take at 11pm localtime
(sleep hormone)
nothingmuch i have some japanese mushrooms which I'm trying today
mugwump or eat foods with lots of Tryptophan
nothingmuch worst case scenario - vivid dreams
mugwump japanese mushrooms? what type? 23:34
nothingmuch one sec
Limbic_Region Melatonin isn't a sleep hormone AFAIK 23:35
though it is used to "reset" jet lag
nothingmuch shitake 23:36
mugwump interesting ... might have to look that up in a Materia Medica to see how that works 23:37
Limbic_Region layman's version - it is sunlight related hormone that tells your body when it should be sleeping - taking it artificially is like a soft-reboot 23:38
clkao .win156 23:39
Limbic_Region so earlier I should have said I believe it is a sleep related hormone
mugwump sure Limbic_Region, but it usually resets the circadian rhythm within a day or two
it plays a crucial part in dreaming, too. gets converted to DMT inside your brain (yep, you're trippin' while you sleep!) 23:40
nothingmuch thinks he needs chronic treatment with it =)
Limbic_Region wonders if he is alone in always knowing he is dreaming when he is dreaming
nothingmuch or more importantly, maybe reassess diet to figure out if something is blocking it
mugwump actually the best advice is to get some acupuncture from a "real" doctor (not a GP ;))
nothingmuch Limbic_Region: i know for about 90% dreams 23:41
wolverian mugwump: er, are you sure about that? I know that the pineal gland produces DMT by itself, but is melatonin converted to it?
(pineal gland being the organ that produces melatonin and trace amounts of DTM)
er, DMT.
(I should sleep too. :)
mugwump well wolverian, it's a difficult area of science to be sure of truths as the live brain is hard to study chemically. but I believe that the chemical pathway from Tryptophan -> 5-Hydroxy-tryptophan -> melatonin -> Di-Methyl-Tryptophan is demonstrated to be likely 23:42
www.pharmacorama.com/en/Sections/Se...in_2_1.php 23:43
Limbic_Region nothingmuch - out of curiosity, to what degree do you manipulate your dreams because you know you are dreaming (on average) 23:44
nothingmuch not much
sometimes i have a weird sense of preknowlege of an event
that is, a small image or symbol
Arathorn . o O ( perl6 does lucid dreaming, film at 11 ) 23:45
nothingmuch and by just thinking up an association it becomes "true" in the dream as the plot progresses
Limbic_Region hmmm
nothingmuch and I know I'm doing it
Limbic_Region should consider joining a dream study thingy
nothingmuch but aside from that there is no real "control"
mugwump Arathorn: :)
Limbic_Region has very unique dreams from what he can tell
nothingmuch what are they like?
Limbic_Region well - that would take quite a bit and this is #perl6 afterall
Khisanth thinks Limbic_Region should start working on perl6 in his dreams :) 23:46
Limbic_Region but in synopsis - I know I am dreaming always and most of the time take an active concious role in them
Khisanth - there's a catch-22
Arathorn once wrote code whilst sleepwalking
Limbic_Region if I don't stop hacking/thinking seriously at least 3 hours prior to bed time - I won't be able to go to sleep at all 23:47
or rather - not dream level sleep
Arathorn about 15k lines of C - all complete and utter gibberish
nothingmuch en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_hygiene
Arathorn about 7 lines of one function, another 5 lines of another, all completely mangled together
(i hope someone's keeping an eye on autrijus' commits over the last week or so ;D) 23:48
nothingmuch Limbic_Region: i do feel like a protagonist - i do things in the dream, but it's like the real world, in the sense that shit happens to me
there are rare exceptions where I feel slow, or falling, or something like that
in a way that is usually very uncomfortable, but not much more
but I'm still an active me 23:49
Limbic_Region nothingmuch - the funnest dreams are when I am in a movie theatre - the dream is on the screen. Sometimes in order to help the plot - the narrator will say "meanwhile ..." and switch to another scene happening at the same "time" but in a different place. I fast forward through the boring parts
nothingmuch hah
mugwump That's a Stuart Wilde device, isn't it? 23:50
(the dream theatre)
nothingmuch i think the fast forward bit doesn't apply to me - my dreams are never ever boring
Limbic_Region if I don't like the movie or I am more interested in something that the director has chosen not to show - I fly into the movie and become part of it
knowing that I am dreaming shocks some of the other actors though - I don't fall down and play dead when shot 23:51
anyway - the movie theatre is only 1 style of dream that I have - the others are just as interesting (to me anyway) 23:52
on that note - I am off to numb the mind (watch tv) so I can sleep tonight
TTFN all

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