6.2.10 released! xrl.us/hxnb | geoffb's column (/. ed): xrl.us/hxhk | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | www.geeksunite.net
Set by autrijus on 10 October 2005.
geoffb good! 00:00
It's about time.
rafl Well, good for those people using the major archs. 00:01
And not too bad for the other guys, after all.
geoffb Yeah. 00:02
The four arches you mentioned have enough differences that portability should still be a strong push. 00:03
rafl Yes. It's also not said that Debian won't run on the other archs anymore.
geoffb right -- and that's all part of why I was happy to see the staggered release idea proposed, and discussion looking positive 00:04
rafl ACK. 00:05
00:12 khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth
eric256__ ?eval 42.pugs 01:35
evalbot_7652 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&pugs"
eric256__ ?eval 42.pop;
evalbot_7652 42
mrborisguy when I saw that at first I was like, "what!? there's a pugs command? that could probably help me!"
eric256__ lol 01:36
brain wires got crossed
mrborisguy :D
eric256__ ?eval 42.shift; 01:37
evalbot_7652 42
eric256__ odd
?eval shift 42 01:38
evalbot_7652 42
mrborisguy don't expect it to do that for a scalar, you mean? 01:39
eric256__ it shouldn't ;)
mrborisguy does the constant get interpreted as a list?
eric256__ ?eval my $x = 42; $x.pop;
evalbot_7652 42
mrborisguy ?eval my $n = 42; $n.pop
evalbot_7652 42
eric256__ nope ;)
mrborisguy that's definitely not expected 01:40
do you know how to fix that in Haskell? I'd be intruiged because I was thinking on working on the chop problem
and that would have some similar code that might get me started
eric256__ i beleive i do.. should be a simple matter of fixing the op in Prim.hs ... i think ;)
mrborisguy yeah, just adding some code to make sure it's an array, right? 01:41
?eval hash( a => 42, b => 144000 ).pop 01:42
evalbot_7652 Error: Unknown syntactic construct: Syn "named" [Val (VStr "a"),Pos (MkPos "<eval>" 1 12 1 14) (Val (VInt 42))]
eric256__ i beleive so
not exactly a pretty error
?eval hash( a => 42, b => 144000 )
evalbot_7652 Error: Unknown syntactic construct: Syn "named" [Val (VStr "a"),Pos (MkPos "<eval>" 1 12 1 14) (Val (VInt 42))]
eric256__ that worked yestarday..didn't it? 01:43
mrborisguy my %hash = (a => 42, b => 144000 ); %hash.pop
eric256__ ?eval hash( (a => 42,) (b => 144000) )
evalbot_7652 Error: unexpected "h" expecting program
mrborisguy I don't know... I'm not always up on what's happening around here
eric256__ ?eval hash( (a => 42,) (b => 144000) )
evalbot_7652 Error: unexpected "h" expecting program
eric256__ ?eval hash( (a => 42,, b => 144000) )
evalbot_7652 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Handle (VHandle)
eric256__ ?eval hash( (a => 42, b => 144000) )
evalbot_7652 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Handle (VHandle)
eric256__ ?eval hash( (a , 42, b , 144000) )
evalbot_7652 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Handle (VHandle)
eric256__ ?eval hash( a , 42, b , 144000) 01:44
evalbot_7652 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&a"
eric256__ ?eval hash( 'a' , 42, 'b' , 144000)
evalbot_7652 {("a" => 42), ("b" => 144000)}
eric256__ lol. thats picky function
must have been pair magic
mrborisguy haha
my %hash = (a => 42, b => 144000 ); %hash.pop 01:46
?eval my %hash = (a => 42, b => 144000 ); %hash.pop 01:47
evalbot_7652 Error: Cannot cast into Array: VRef <Hash>
eric256__ thats an automatic casting happening...i don't see any errors in Prim.hs though.../me wonders if the failing test is wrong 01:49
hmmm what did you want to do to chop? 01:53
that might be easier than this ;)
?eval 24.shift; 02:01
evalbot_7652 24
eric256__ ?eval 24.unshift;
evalbot_7652 1
eric256__ ?eval 24.unshift(5);
evalbot_7652 Error: Can't modify constant item: VUndef
eric256__ ?eval my $x =24; $x.unshift(5); $x.say; 02:02
evalbot_7652 Error: Can't modify constant item: VUndef
rafl evalbot_7652: What should that do? 02:05
eric256__ guesses you mean me
what should which one do?
rafl Of course /^e\w+_\d+/ :-) 02:06
24.unshift(5) and 24.unshift
eric256__ those shouldn't work. iwas looking for where the error is generated so i could try and generate the same error for 24.pop;
rafl Ah, OK. It seemed not very DWIM to me :-) 02:07
eric256__ ?eval hex( [1..5]); 02:08
evalbot_7652 pugs: Prelude.read: no parse
coral 42.unshift(5)?
eric256__ ?eval hex( 1);
evalbot_7652 1
eric256__ ?eval hex( 5 + 6);
evalbot_7652 17
eric256__ ?eval hex( 1..5);
evalbot_7652 pugs: Prelude.read: no parse
eric256__ interesting error. lol
coral hex(5+6) isn't ever 17?!
quite interesting
eric256__ ?eval hex(11)
evalbot_7652 17
eric256__ ?eval hex(10) 02:09
evalbot_7652 16
eric256__ ?eval hex(9)
evalbot_7652 9
coral oh
i have the wrong direction in mind, n/m
eric256__ lol
still looks wrong...why is hex 9 = 9, but hex 10 is 16...or am i going the wrong direction too? is it expecting a hex number or returning one?
?eval hex('a')
evalbot_7652 10
eric256__ ahh
coral ?eval hex('g') 02:15
evalbot_7652 pugs: Prelude.read: no parse
coral i suppose that's valid, or something
eric256__ lol 02:17
coral ?eval hex( 02:19
evalbot_7652 Error: unexpected ( or "h" expecting program
coral ?eval hex('-a')
evalbot_7652 pugs: Prelude.read: no parse
eric256__ yea not the greatest errors in the world ;)
coral at least it says where the error starts
?eval hex(0-1)
evalbot_7652 pugs: Prelude.read: no parse
eric256__ no actualy it doesn't. lol. its actualy failing to parse that at all 02:20
?eval my $x = '-a'; hex($x);
evalbot_7652 pugs: Prelude.read: no parse
coral well, the hex( one
?eval my $x = 0-1; $x
evalbot_7652 \-1
coral uh, yeah
eric256__ ?eval my $x = 'a'; hex($x);
evalbot_7652 10
coral learns something new
eric256__ ?eval my $x = '0'; hex($x); 02:21
evalbot_7652 0
eric256__ ?eval my $x = '0'; $x -1; hex($x);
evalbot_7652 0
eric256__ ?eval my $x = 0; $x -1; hex($x);
evalbot_7652 0
coral ?eval my $x = 0; $x -1; $x
evalbot_7652 \0
eric256__ interesting. lol
oh duh
?eval my $x = 0; $x--; hex($x);
evalbot_7652 pugs: Prelude.read: no parse
coral ?eval hex((0|1))
evalbot_7652 0
coral ?eval hex((0|-1))
evalbot_7652 pugs: Prelude.read: no parse
coral heh! 02:22
?eval hex(any(-100..0))
evalbot_7652 pugs: Prelude.read: no parse
eric256__ aborts for tonight.
later
coral ok sorry
coral stpos
eric256__ no not you
just tired of flaying in pugs with no one who knows the internals around...even if i do change things i'm never sure its quite right...need a guide ;)
later
autrijus coral: fixed. 02:28
committing.
it's in Pugs.Prim's op1 "hex" 02:29
the "read" there needs to be guarded with a try
coral ah, cool 02:34
autrijus I wonder if it should throw an exception.
I'll leave it as undef for now 02:35
coral hex of 'h' is illegal but hex of anything negative is ???
dunno
autrijus anyway, r7653. 02:36
autrijus goes back slidemaking
coral++
coral autrijus: danke. also ingy sought you earlier.
autrijus k 02:37
svnbot6 r7653 | autrijus++ | * hex("invalid string") now returns undef (maybe throw exception? 02:38
r7653 | autrijus++ | not sure), instead of die an uncaught fatal exception.
r7653 | autrijus++ | Reported by coral.
coral well, er reported by eric really
autrijus oh well... eric256++ # then 02:39
coral eric256++ 02:44
?eval hex()
evalbot_7653 undef
rafl I'd like an exception. 02:46
coral i sort of agree, from a clueless standpoint 02:47
autrijus alright then. 03:01
mrborisguy eric256__: sorry, I left... I guess in the unspecced tests, ( "one", "two", "three" ).chop == ( "on", "tw", "thre" ) ... I was going to try to do that 03:04
more as a learning how to hack pugs exercise, really. 03:05
coral ?eval "".chop
evalbot_7653 ""
coral ?eval Inf.chop
evalbot_7653 "In"
coral heh
?eval (1/0) 03:06
evalbot_7653 Error: Illegal division by zero
svnbot6 r7654 | autrijus++ | * Last commit (making hex() not lethal) is due to eric256. 03:08
r7654 | autrijus++ | * coral and rafl suggested that hex() should raise a
r7654 | autrijus++ | catchable exception instead of returning undef.
r7654 | autrijus++ | * Add in an implementation for oct() just for fun.
autrijus ?eval hex "AOSDH" 03:12
evalbot_7654 Error: Cannot parse hexadecimal string: AOSDH
autrijus ?eval oct "999"
evalbot_7654 Error: Cannot parse octal string: 999
autrijus ?eval oct "742"
evalbot_7654 482
coral ?eval oct hex "a" 03:35
evalbot_7654 8
spinclad rafl: installation report. Tried Installing the four pugs packages from debian sid (hurrah! rafl++!). 05:53
Three went in w/ no problems: pugs, pugs-modules, pugs-doc.
Installing libghc6-pugs-dev failed at first as I didn't have a /usr/local/include. 05:54
After mkdir /usr/local/include, it also installed. 05:55
Problem: /usr/lib/haskell-packages/ghc6/lib/Pugs-6.2.10/installed-pkg-config has the line: 05:57
include-dirs: /usr/local/include /usr/lib/perl/5.8/CORE
which doesn't seem right to me. 05:58
I believe I ought to have the directory but the package should not refer to it. 06:00
Very happy to see 6.2.10 in Debian! rafl++ 06:02
coral in ubuntu with all package sources enabled for hoary and breezy: 06:03
Package pugs is not available, but is referred to by another package.
$ apt-cache search pugs
pugs-doc - Documentation for pugs
maybe i'm missing a package list.
spinclad what other package? 06:04
in debian sid at the moment only pugs-modules depends on pugs
(mutually, as it happens) 06:06
autrijus greetings from euro oscon 06:13
coral hello autrijus
autrijus first tutorial of the day: Ruby on Rails - Enjoying the ride of programming!
coral re-fetched my ubuntu package lists, no errors this time 06:14
no pugs either, only pugs-doc
obra morning autrijus
autrijus prepares for the assault of eigenclasses
coral files a bug
wait, maybe it's unstable. i bet that's it. or something.
geoffb Greetings, autrijus 06:16
autrijus yo geoffb 06:18
geoffb Did you already do your lightning talks? 06:19
luqui cool, OpenGL works in haskell. I might have to port Glop to haskell. 06:21
or better yet, add OpenGL bindings to pugs
and then port glop to perl 6 (and be completely unable to write any games in it because of the speed) 06:22
oh, euro oscon, neat
geoffb luqui: SDL_perl already works with pugs. 06:23
In fact, I'm in the middle of talking to chromatic about it elsewhere
luqui yeah, but SDL_Perl is a pain in the ass to install 06:24
autrijus geoffb: no, lightning talks is tomorrow morning
luqui anybody who runs pugs has already installed haskell, and therefore already has the bindings
autrijus geoffb: and apparently I did my slides in the reverse order of presentation
fun!
geoffb autrijus, heh
luqui, on what platform? For Win32 and various *nixen, it's an easy install 06:25
luqui it's not that easy for Win32, because SDL::OpenGL doesn't work, so you have to fall back to OpenGL.pm
on OS X is just a damn pain
autrijus ...inflicted acme with T-shirts... 06:26
luqui I could also put it this way: you can get it to work everywhere, but it works very differently everywhere
geoffb luqui, you are incorrect about Win32. SDL::OpenGL works. Which I know, because I host the PPM repo for it. :-)
luqui oh, that's great that it works for you :-) 06:27
coral heh
hoowa_ hi tang did u here
autrijus hoowa_, chromatic: greetings.
hoowa_ i need u help tang 06:28
geoffb luqui, um, it should just work. As in, run PPM, hit the URL in my PPM rep, life is golden.
autrijus chromatic: are you @ .nl?
chromatic No, .or.us.
coral hello portland!
(or nearby)
chromatic West of PDX, but not Beaverton.
Stupid Beaverton.
luqui is pretty sure he got the PPM from you (the only PPM I could find). There was breakage (SDL::OpenGL exprorted, nay, had no symbols whatsoever)
hoowa_ tang pls help repair my cpan id, i forgot all long time
luqui anyway, I could email you when I pick the project back up again, if you're interested 06:29
luqui read that as "Stupid Beethoven"
autrijus hoowa_: you need me reset your password?
chromatic I like Beethoven.
luqui too
:-)
hoowa_ tang yes
autrijus hoowa_: ok, doing so
coral prods pause.perl.org forlornly
hoowa_ and
geoffb luqui, sorry, multitasking. You probably got the PPM from crazywhathisname or from Tels. Both had broken OpenGL modules. 06:30
luqui okay, I shall try again at some point
coral pause.perl.org/pause/query?ACTION=mailpw will mail forgotten passwords if (1) you know your CPAN id and (2) you have access to the email it was registered with
luqui Glop is not my current focus though (because I've decided that it needs to be redesigned) 06:31
geoffb The one on broadwell.org should be clean. And I even went anarchy++ and opened up the repo. Join #sdlperl and look at the topic. committer bits for all.
luqui, understood
chromatic Or hook up Parrot to Pugs and then we can use Parrot SDL from Perl 6....
autrijus ...but wait, it's already hooked (via eval"")...
but object-level hooking would be nice.
luqui the reason I started talking about this is because I just wrote a trivial program with haskell's opengl bindings
so we could have opengl under parrot and haskell backends 06:32
coral oo
chromatic I just wrote a trivial program with Perl 5's OpenGL bindings.
coral if you can find JS-addressable OpenGL plugins for web browsers
luqui (even though, as geoffb points out, we can already have opengl under haskell using perl5:SDL::OpenGL)
coral, I wish (seriously, if they exist, tell me)
maybe you could set up OpenGL through Java, and then let JS address Java 06:33
the generic "you", of course
geoffb Yeah, cause definitely not me.
:-) 06:34
coral 2005-04-28
I'm currently writing a plugin for Firefox using OpenGL on Win32.
bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=292303
also bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?q...ent=opengl
luqui coral: sweeet 06:35
keep me posted
coral www.synthesisters.com/download/Java...tInMax.pdf appears to indicate that 'Max' (3dsmax, maybe?) supports javascript that manipulates opengl 06:36
er, 'Sketch'?
hoowa_ thank u tang
geoffb coral, very cool
coral XWT has opengl acceleration and javascript parser
nothing appears to quite be covering the specific need except that one win32 bug above
heh, there's "vrcore1, a new portable 3D engine for OpenGL with javascript scripting" 06:37
pugs->js->opengl rendering :)
luqui I'm sure that will be really really fast :-p
coral hee hee 06:38
luqui is under the impression that you can make many great games without speed though
or even a speedy library
(marijuana is a necessity though, apparently)
luqui should get to bed
coral i was addicted to tetris perfectly sober
luqui autrijus, keep me posted if you talk to larry et al about annotations and whatnot 06:39
coral, I meant for making games
coral oh, heh
luqui has pot-addict friends who are game programmers
luqui swears never to touch their code again
autrijus luqui: okie
luqui sayonara 06:40
coral if y'all can compile to actionscript then as2swf is easy 06:43
brief email sent to the author of the opengl/win32 plugin (ncannasse@motion-twin.com) 06:46
06:48 ods15_ is now known as ods15
rafl spinclad: Hrm.. libghc6-pugs-dev should be broken.. 09:34
theorbtwo That was an awful short backlog. 09:38
Morning, people.
rafl spinclad: Oh, didn't read the lines that didn't highlight me. 09:43
spinclad: Yes, that include-dirs line is wrong. 09:44
spinclad: It should not refer any directory because non of them is needed for linking (AFAIK).
spinclad: I just don't know how to work that around using cabal.
spinclad: If you look at debian/patches/30includedirs.dpatch in the source dir you'll see that I already put quite of lot of work into removing everything I could without breaking other things. 09:45
scook0 ?eval method foo(Str $s: $x) { say "$s -- $x" }; "bar".foo(3) 10:08
evalbot_7654 bar -- 3 bool::true
scook0 ?eval method foo(Str $s: $x) { say "$s -- $x" }; "bar".foo(x =>3)
evalbot_7654 bar -- 3 bool::true
scook0 ?eval method foo(Str $s: $x) { say "$s -- $x" }; "bar".foo((x =>3))
evalbot_7654 bar -- x 3 bool::true
svnbot6 r7655 | scook0++ | * Tweak ruleInvocationCommon to use HasParens, not NoParens 10:25
r7655 | scook0++ | * Update 'plan' for t/builtins/arity.t
12:15 r0nny_ is now known as r0nny 13:17 Jooon_ is now known as Jooon
eric256 morning 14:23
QtPlatypus Morning 14:24
geoffb autrijus, how goes the conference? 15:10
Limbic_Region geoffb - IIRC, you were mildly interested in a list of neat/interesting questions/challenges/riddles at the Monastery right? 15:11
geoffb yeah, sure . . . what's new? 15:12
Limbic_Region oh, for a project I am working on I am collecting a list of links 15:13
geoffb ah 15:14
Limbic_Region some are to steal er borrow ideas from and others are to use as is
geoffb What is the project?
Limbic_Region uber top secret
eric256 lol
Limbic_Region but in any acct, when the list is compiled, I would be happy to share them with you
theorbtwo BUM BUM BUM!
geoffb is cleared "uber top secret", you see
Limbic_Region let me say this about that 15:15
there are often times when a self-taught programmer reaches the end of a road
they have figured out all they started out to learn and don't know where to go from here
they don't know what they don't know so they don't know where to learn what it is they don't know 15:16
there are lots of diversions that are fun and can spark inspiration
geoffb nod
Limbic_Region perl golf, poetry, obfusacation
geoffb good idea, htat
Limbic_Region well - my personal favorite is these puzzles/challenges/interesting questions
geoffb My favorite is hanging out here. :-) 15:17
Limbic_Region a second personal favorite of mine is letting Necessity be the mother of invention
solve an old problem by intentionally limiting what tools you will allow yourself to use
you end up either learning about new tools or how to use known tools in new and novel ways
I use the Monastery as a means to accomplish 1 and 2 15:18
anyway - I have monopolized enough of #perl6 on semi-OT stuff
when the list is complete I will let you know
Khisanth <Limbic_Region> they have figured out all they started out to learn and don't know where to go from here < following autrijus wouldn't be a bad idea :D 15:19
geoffb Speaking of which, at one point I started doing a Perl version of busybox, so that I would be forced to learn all the rarely-used params for the old unix favorites
Khisanth I mean the stuff he mentions in his journal :)
theorbtwo I'd more call golf, poetry, and obfuscation modifiers on a problem then problems unto themselves.
Limbic_Region Khisanth - well, chances are if they are giften enough to be able to follow autrijus then they don't need help being inspired 15:20
theorbtwo - I was just saying that they are ways to find inspiration while having fun
eric256 can't get mysql to start up... this stupid server is going out the window very very soon 15:21
theorbtwo (Problem: print "Hello world" to the screen. Golf: Print hello world to the screen with a short program... etc.
Hm, L~R, I'd love to see that list sometimes, as I very much have that problem.
Khisanth Print hello world without using print! :)
Limbic_Region exactly Khisanth 15:22
Khisanth emm system calls
Limbic_Region that really isn't a golf one though - that is a necessity is the mother of invention one
eric256 notices that his servers hard drive is full and apologizes to it. lol
geoffb eric256, heh
theorbtwo Allo, stevan. 15:23
stevan hey theorbtwo
Limbic_Region theorbtwo - noted
Khisanth eric256: it didn't give any useful error message?
eric256 crap....relay log file for replication became corrupted because of DF errors.../me thinks someone is plotting against him. 15:24
any one know if is there an irc room for MySQL help somewhere? 15:27
Steve_p eric256, yes, #mysql 15:29
eric256 yea i realized that after asking...can't convince trillian to give me a list of channels so i just gave it a try. ;)
eric256 attempts to twiddle his thumbs whil 15:35
e waiting... stupid enter key is in the wrong spot
anyone know how to make an op only work for a List/Array in haskell? 16:00
wolverian evening 16:09
Khisanth afternoon :)
eric256 and goodnight ;)
wolverian :)
I'm afraid I'll have to restart this irssi session (locale problems) - see you in a minute 16:10
ah, here we go. 16:19
eric256 odd that sometimes this room is hoping and sometimes it's silent, and always, when i'm ready to do some haskell hacking its silent. lol ;) its like they know and flee before i can ask them annoying questions 17:25
Khisanth ;) 17:26
eric256 Khisanth is that a name from a book? its rining faint bells in my head. 17:27
Khisanth yes 17:29
Khisanth drips some acide on eric256 17:30
s/de/d/
eric256 whats the book?
Khisanth dragonlance 17:32
eric256 ahh... never read that, must have picked the name up in a review or something. lol
par.perl.org id gone. ;( 17:34
autrijus eric256: yeah, my HD crashed :/
eric256 ouch. luckily CPAN has some docs on it ;) 17:35
autrijus the 9.3th State of Onion is about to begin.
eric256 is there an easy way to make op1 "shift" not work on lists?
obra 9.3th...hm
autrijus eric256: declare it as Array::shift
eric256 9.3th? lol. way to commit
ehh i meant not work on strings.. 17:36
autrijus declare it as List::shift
eric256 thanks...now to figure out what that means. ;) 17:37
thanks autrijus 17:38
svnbot6 r7656 | autrijus++ | * All-day pair poetry with Allison -- one stanza and one paragraph left
autrijus np :)
eric256 okay that was just way easy...is that documented somewhere that i should have found? 17:44
autrijus no... not really... suggestions welcome
fglock__ is List::Shift overridable (with plain p6)? 17:45
autrijus fglock__: sure!
it's just a sym bound in &List::shift
so you just rebind it
fglock__ does this mean I could install a Lazy list handler? :) 17:46
autrijus why, yes! :)
eric256 the opcodes can be overridden? /me needs a lesson in Pugs compiler hehe
autrijus rafl: if you put it in Prelude.pm then it'll even Just Work 17:47
eric256 smiles as 45.shift now gives a sort of error ;) 17:49
autrijus <lwall> "Haskell makes hard things really easy, but easy things kinda hard" 17:50
Khisanth that sounds like almost but not quite :) 17:51
Limbic_Region autrijus - has $larry learned Haskell yet or is he still an initiate? 17:52
eric256 how would i make that give a real error? just define op1 "shift' = fail "Can't call shift on a non-List"?
autrijus Limbic_Region: he just said he was "humbled" as he found learning haskell really challenging
eric256: sure
Khisanth shift now works on Lists?
autrijus no, it should probably work on arrays (I hope) 17:53
eric256 shift worked on everything before.
should that be Array::shift then instead?
autrijus yeah, it was *shift
I think so yeah
(battery about-ish to run out of power)
fglock__ autrijus: in pugs, does 1..Inf create a List or an Array? 17:54
autrijus fglock__: List is value, Array is container, so it's a list
eric256 and shift/pop should only work on Array containers not List values? 17:55
autrijus I think so
eric256 just trying to wrap his head around the verbiage
autrijus <lwall> "It's more important to design a language to be expert-friendly, than optimizing for least-surprise-ish newbie friendly" 17:56
fglock__ in "@a=(0, 1..Inf)", the array object contains 2 things? (that's how it works in pilrun)
Khisanth oh? when did he say that?
Limbic_Region you should be able to subscript a list but I personally don't think you should be able to shift/pop/unshift/push a list
it feels un-natural
Khisanth Limbic_Region: AGREED!
autrijus <lwall> "...otoh we still need to engineer a bit on the newbie friendly bit, or we end up reinventing Haskell"
Limbic_Region heh 17:57
Khisanth it conjures up visions of people doing silly things like "shift (1..10);"
eric256 umm fail drops clear out of pugs command line?
Limbic_Region I like having the ability to do $str .= (1..10, 'A'..'F')[ rand 16] for 1 .. 10; but think that's where the line should be drawn 17:58
autrijus eric256: shouldn't do that
Juerd fglock__: (0,1...) is (0...) with [1] already known, that's all
autrijus eric256: fail in Eval monad should fail gracefully
Limbic_Region otherwise lists should just be anonymous arrays
eric256 its definitly kicking me clear out.
Juerd Limbic_Region: 1..10, really?
0..9?
autrijus eric256: weird
eric256: fail in IO monad would do that to you 17:59
eric256 dunno what that means. ;)
autrijus eric256: just commit :)
eric256 i removed the errors i added because they weren't working right
now i'll commit
Limbic_Region Juerd - the point was on the subscripting not on the accuracy of the range, but thanks ;-)
Juerd Limbic_Region: $str = concat [0..9,'A'..'F'].pick XX 16;
autrijus k
Limbic_Region Lists and Arrays are not the same thing - and shift/pop/unshift/push shouldn't work on lists IMO 18:00
autrijus Limbic_Region: sure
Juerd They *can't* work on lists
list : array :: ro : rw 18:01
eric256 commited but its not working. ;)
autrijus greetings leo san
leo_ hi autrijus
meeting time
autrijus meeting is during State of Onion
how wise!
obra leo_++ # doing my work for me ;)
Limbic_Region Juerd - they can work on lists is the point
eric256 opps... conflict..huh
Limbic_Region or rather - the current Haskell implementation anyway
eric256 ?check 18:02
svnbot6 r7657 | eric256++ | Prim.hs : Make shift only work on Array, but not realy because it doesn't work
fglock__ goes back to playing with ext/Perl6-Value-List
eric256 autrijus...can you have a look because that completely broke shift. ;) 18:03
PerlJam eric256: "make it work but not really"?
eric256 hehe. autrijus wanted me to commit it ;) 18:04
autrijus eric256: ugh, I thought it worked ;)
my battery is on 6% and it's during larry/damian talk 18:05
eric256 i'll revert it for now
autrijus so probably not the best of times
k
I'll check the logs
eric256 ;) you said commit ;)
clkao autrijus: weird scientist!
autrijus eric256: yup, commit+revert is better than noop
as any clkao will tell you
clkao any(@clkao) 18:06
eric256 reverted
svnbot6 r7658 | eric256++ | Prim.hs Reverting so it works ;) 18:08
autrijus no battery... over and out, bbl &
whiteg ōæ½xB7Qōæ½xBAōæ½xCEōæ½xC4ōæ½xB1 18:34
err..sorry
eric256 ?eval 52.pop
evalbot_7659 52
eric256 ?eval 52.shift; 18:35
evalbot_7659 52
eric256 thats not the new version
?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
evalbot_7659 \"Perl6 User\'s Golfing System, version 6.2.10, October 10, 2005 (r7658)"
eric256 hehe. it says it is,...but it isn't, eval bot got confused
svnbot6 r7659 | eric256++ | Prim.hs - Fixed shift and pop to only work on arrays. (turns out its List::pop not Array::pop) 18:38
Juerd Limbic_Region: A list is not a *thing* 18:40
Limbic_Region: It is multiple things.
Limbic_Region: If shift works on a list, there are several possibilities
eric256 ....are you talking to me? i never called a list a thing. i just know that in pugs internals i have to decare it as Lasti::shift
Khisanth why are you arguing to agree with Limbic_Region? :) 18:41
fglock__ cool - I've got "my $span = 0 .. Inf;" in plain pugs!
Juerd Limbic_Region: Either it treats the list as a language level thing, rather than a phenomenon, or it coerces the list to an array.
eric256 it doesn't however work on (1..5).shift
Juerd Khisanth: To get jargon straight
eric256 ohhh /me missed the Limbic_Region on the front of that
?eval $?PUGS_VERSION 18:42
evalbot_7659 \"Perl6 User\'s Golfing System, version 6.2.10, October 10, 2005 (r7658)"
eric256 ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION 18:44
evalbot_7659 \"Perl6 User\'s Golfing System, version 6.2.10, October 10, 2005 (r7658)"
eric256 hmmm thats odd. feather is running the new one already....but eval bot isn't?
?eval 5.shift; 18:48
evalbot_7659 5
svnbot6 r7660 | fglock++ | * ext/Perl6-Value-List - added a test for Lazy "$span=0..Inf" 18:50
r7660 | fglock++ | with proper isa(), reverse(), shift(), pop()
r7660 | fglock++ | see t/array-lazy-overloaded.t
eric256 ?eval 5.shift; 18:59
evalbot_7660 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&shift"
eric256 ;)
glasser_ hmm. i want to get into haskell. you folks are nice, i bet you have good book recommendations? 19:01
Khisanth I have always found that to be a slightly useless error message
glasser_: there is a READTHEM in the repo :)
glasser_ (i've played around with tutorials and read a fair amount of haskell, but haven't actually tried anything serious)
Khisanth it lists stuff to read
glasser_ Khisanth: oh duh, I knew that. heh
eric256 i didn't pick the error message ;) i will experiment with causes different messages, for now thats what i've got ;)
haskell.org/learning.html 19:02
glasser_ Bah, the two that my school have are already checked out.
Khisanth which two?
glasser_ School of Expression, and Craft of Function Programming (Hudak and Thompson) 19:03
anyone familiar with the Bird one?
eric256 an th epage i linked to i found Yet Another Haskell Tutorial helpfull, but then i havn'te realy tried the others yest 19:04
Khisanth hopes "The Fun of Programming" was not a pun
glasser_ I guess I'm looking less for a tutorial (since I get the very basic functional programming concepts) and more of a "how to get stuff done".
of course the pugs tree is helpful there too :)
Khisanth eric256: I find that YAHT forces you to learn though I have only skimmed the others(online stuff) :)
I am still looking for the "here is this function and this is what it does" sort of thing 19:05
but #haskell is quite helpful :) 19:06
eric256 yea Khisanth i needed forced to learn...now i'm reaching the point where i want a reference manual 19:13
glasser yeah. 19:18
like something that would tell me about the standard libs in GHC or whatever
anyone have a preference between the thompson and the hudak, if i'm going to try to request one at my library? 19:20
Khisanth hmm there IS a page with the stuff in the Haskell prelude
glasser I mean I found www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/htm...index.html and all, but sometimes a book is just nice :)
19:39 Lopo_ is now known as Lopo
svnbot6 r7661 | eric256++ | Fixed splice on scalar and un-Todo'ed tests for pop,shift,splice on scalars. 20:21
eric256 ?eval (1..5).sum; 20:23
yea Khisanth i needed forced to learn...now i'm reaching the point where i want a reference manual
arg
?eval (1..5).sum;
evalbot_7661 15
eric256 ?eval (1..5).min;
evalbot_7661 1
eric256 ?eval (1..5).max;
evalbot_7661 5
eric256 ?eval max "hello";
evalbot_7661 "hello"
eric256 ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION 20:24
evalbot_7661 \"Perl6 User\'s Golfing System, version 6.2.10, October 10, 2005 (r7661)"
svnbot6 r7662 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props. 20:27
r7662 | iblech++ | * Pugs.Parser: Per Larry
r7662 | iblech++ | (www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6....ge/23541): "self" is an
r7662 | iblech++ | alias for "$?SELF".
r7662 | iblech++ | * t/oo/magical_vars.t: Added tests for this.
wolverian yay, one step closer to running hq9+.p6! 20:28
eric256 ?eval ((1)).perl.say
evalbot_7661 1 bool::true
eric256 ?eval ((1)).perl
evalbot_7661 "1"
eric256 ?eval ([1]).perl 20:29
evalbot_7661 "[1]"
eric256 ?eval ((1,2)).perl
evalbot_7661 "(1, 2)"
eric256 why is the poor 1 being unlisted?
?eval ((1,)).perl
evalbot_7661 "(1)"
eric256 ?eval ((1)).perl
evalbot_7661 "1"
eric256 realy question...is .perl broken...or is it realy seeing it that way?
wolverian that's how the syntax works
eric256 realy? ( ) arn't enough to impose a list contruct? 20:30
wolverian they don't do so in perl5; I don't think they do in perl5 either.
erm, s:2nd/perl5/perl6/
eric256 hmmm quick test shows you are right.. 20:33
okay. just not what i expected ;)
svnbot6 r7663 | iblech++ | * t/var/caller.t: According to S02, only vars declared "is env" should be 20:38
r7663 | iblech++ | accessible via $CALLER::. Fixed the tests accordingly and added some new ones.
r7663 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: README:
r7663 | iblech++ | * Minor TODO update.
r7663 | iblech++ | * Should PIL2JS pre-generate constants
r7663 | iblech++ | (www.sidhe.org/~dan/blog/archives/000433.html)?
Juerd eric256: There should be no list constructor.
eric256: A list cannot exist in non-list context, and in list context, everything is a list. 20:39
eric256: The "list" operator is dubious and should generally be ignored, IMO
eric256 ?eval (1).sum
PerlJam Juerd: doesn't that make the builtin "list" operator a list constructor? :)
Juerd (I cannot think of any reason to have or use it)
eric256 ?eval (1,2).sum
here bot...here bot 20:40
Juerd PerlJam: Yes, but it makes lists be things, which makes no sense with the rest of the language
PerlJam: I have yet to see a single instance of the list operator being needed or handy.
PerlJam Maybe if list were a long-hand way to write the splatty *
eric256 it just seems weird to me that the two above eval statmenst are soo different, first one is. 1.sum while the second is (1,2).sum
Juerd As far as I understand the logic, "list" is there for theoretical completeness, except that it is based on partial theory rather than the whole of Perl.
PerlJam: That'd be very, very misleading. 20:41
iblech eric256: (Need to sleep soon, so can only stay here for a short time) (2) is in every aspect the same as 2, i.e. it's a plain scalar. 20:43
eric256 right. but (1,2) is not. which is what is confusing to me
Juerd eric256: (1,2) cannot be a plain scalar.
iblech Yep. (1,2) is an array, whose elements are aliases to the original vars -- ($foo,$bar)[0] =:= $foo is true
Juerd eric256: It is the comma operator in either scalar or list context (or void)
iblech (Also, (1,) is an array as well.) 20:44
eric256 and if you are coding then they look like they should be the same. i can understand and live with it, just misleading. but as was pointed out thats the way it is in perl5 too.
iblech Well, you can use this behaviour for clarity etc. -- ( long_expression ).foobar may be better than long_expression.foobar. And the parens are actually needed if you have to group things, think (~$foo).uc. If (~$foo) meant (~$foo,), (~$foo).uc couldn't work 20:46
eric256 true.
Juerd Sure it could 20:49
svnbot6 r7664 | fglock++ | * ext/Perl6-Value-List - proof-of-concept implementation of Lazy Array in plain Pugs
r7664 | fglock++ | "my @a = 1..Inf; @a.pop;" returns Inf
Juerd But it'd require more radical consistency.
iblech oooh fglock__++ 20:50
svnbot6 r7665 | iblech++ | Pugs.Prim: Fixed .perl for arrays containing only one elem, eric256++: 21:01
r7665 | iblech++ | (3,4,5).perl # (3,4,5)
r7665 | iblech++ | (3,).perl # (3,), *not* (3)
iblech Ok, sleep. Night all! :) 21:02
nothingm1ch www.javacoolsoftware.com/eulalyzer.html 21:05
geoffb Okay . . . that such a product has a niche is just disturbing 21:07
eric256 lol 21:08
eric256 begins to fear one of his *fixes* killed eval bot....;( 21:11
buu NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 21:17
eric256 ?
yea my fix isn't the one that killed eval bot!! ;) 21:27
endeclared variable $?SELF
hehe. stock in a company we where considering getting a phone system from is now trading at 0.011 lol. should by a 100 shares just in case it goes up. lol 21:54
Khisanth 1cent a share? 22:16
eric256 slightly more. lol but yea
we decided they might not be the most financialy secure company to do business with (not just based on share price but that left a real after taste ) 22:17
eric256 sees undeclarded variable $?SELF while trying .trans 22:23
anyone know what broke that?
looks like iblech aded an alias...but would that break $?SELF? hmm 22:24
wolverian eric256, Larry doesn't like $?SELF now. ie: $?CLASS is static, $?SELF is dynamic 22:27
eric256, for now, just call it 'self' 22:28
eric256 lots of broken code then
wolverian trivial to fix.
eric256 you might think so....but why does .trans fail now? that sub doesn't have $?SELF anywhere in it 22:29
wolverian right. 22:30
I don't know. :)
eric256 lol
okay something went wrong...its mad about $self....plan old user variable... 22:36
pasteling "eric256" at 66.102.136.66 pasted "Odd $self behaviour" (6 lines, 207B) at sial.org/pbot/13762 22:38
eric256 guesses that the rule is disregarding the $ for some reason 22:39
so it thinks i'm calling $?SELF when in fact i'm calling $self....anyone familary with rules? ;)
we should just call it $elf and be done. ;) 22:43
wolverian :) 22:47
eric256 are there any other barewords like that that i can look to for reference? 22:48
wolverian...you don't know of any? come on! lol 22:51
i don't even know why its droping the darn $...must be some way to get around this..lol 22:52
geoffb eric256 was clearly in a punchy mood, judging by the random bouts of laughter. :-) 23:18
buu LOL 23:19
!
wolverian buu, looool! 23:23
buu lawl
Shillo Hehe. :) 23:24
luqui ?eval class Foo { method bar() { say $?SELF } } Foo.new.bar 23:36
oh, evalbot's not here
Juerd Hello 23:37
Is this the helpdesk?
Good
I have a problem.
My mouse mat doesn't work.
pad even 23:38
luqui er
?
Juerd I've tried everything. It does nothing.
Can you help me? 23:39
afk # good night :)
geoffb Juerd, nothingm1ch: I got some (very tentative) interest from O'Reilly re: _Migrating to Perl 6_, so that's encouraging. 23:40
My reading of it was that if the community builds it, they would probably come.
But my previous experience is that the cleaner it is (so less work required on their end), probably the better deal we could get for the community. 23:42
obra geoffb: also, what about copyright issues? 23:44
IE, what kinds of waivers do you need?
Juerd geoffb: Then let it be clean by setting strict guidelines and having a few people rewrite everything afterwards. 23:45
geoffb obra, that's a good question. I understand little about the real pro and con of that sort of thing.
Juerd geoffb: In general, it's good news.
geoffb Juerd, I agree. 23:46
Juerd obra: They can publish something that is free documentation.
obra: They won't want to initially, but they should get used to this anyway.
geoffb obra, I'm thinking that since there is nothing relating to other kinds of IP law than copyright, then at worst if it became an issue, we'd just rewrite. But best to probably start
with giving people a clear picture of the intentions, as nothingm1ch began to do.
Juerd obra: Their book has advantages over the same info elsewhere, and THAT is why people buy books. 23:47
geoffb Juerd, I thought they already do publish several free books?
Juerd geoffb: Yes, but they were always freed afterwards, as far as I know
geoffb Juerd, nodnod
Juerd Just make it creativecommons with attribution 23:48
Write a substantial part and you get published almost automatically, listed as author.
That's very attractive, I think :)
geoffb Juerd, I'm assuming CC Att/SA not appropriate?
Juerd SA is not enforcable. 23:49
obra right. free isn't an issue
geoffb Juerd, please explain, why not?
obra not being clear that the "authors" have the IP rights to the text can be
Juerd geoffb: Hard to find, hard to detect, especially with lots of copies floating around
geoffb: And there's no good way to sue offenders 23:50
geoffb geoffb, right, but can you still enforce against someone being obviously bad in public?
Juerd geoffb: It doesn't matter much anyway
obra All I'm suggesting is that someone ask ORA up front what their standards are for collectively edited books
Juerd Attribution is also not enforcable, but at least gives a big fish like O'Reilly the requirement to publish names
Appendix A - AUTHORS 23:51
geoffb Juerd, gotcha
Juerd :)
Anyway, I was going to bed 23:52
Bye
geoffb g'night Juerd
FWIW, O'Reilly blogs are now under CC Att / NC / SA 2.5, with ownership to the authors. 23:54
So clearly O'Reilly is accepting CC in at least some ways

Powered by Cro and the RakuĀ® Programming Language.

Please report any issues / comments / feature requests as an issue on App::Raku::Log.

Thank you!