6.2.10 released! xrl.us/hxnb | geoffb's column (/. ed): xrl.us/hxhk | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 or sial.org/pbot/perl6 | www.geeksunite.net
Set by integral on 25 October 2005.
rafl theorbtwo: ;-) 00:33
theorbtwo: It's kind of usual in germany though. night == Nacht; eight == acht; N8 == Nacht. 00:34
theorbtwo Oh. I suppose that makes sense... in German. 00:36
rafl Well, not even there, imho. 00:37
theorbtwo It's stupid still, but at least it makes sense, which is something.
luqui Holásteis! 02:45
scook0 err...hi 02:49
nice 'role' post, btw
theorbtwo A happy all-holows-eve to you too.
luqui thanks
luqui is going to be whatshisface from Clockwork Orange 02:50
theorbtwo has nothing planned, sadly.
02:54 justathe1ry is now known as justatheory
buu All holows, eh? 03:19
luqui wow... www.securetactics.com/SpySoftware 03:20
commercial trojans
nothingmuch Alex deLarge methinks 04:00
he's a very froody droog
autrijus *purr*
nothingmuch remembers why he doesn't play computer games 04:01
but it's too late again ;-)
autrijus why?
nothingmuch addiction problems
nothingmuch loses track of time
and gets nothing done
but my brain needs the rest
i've been on the brink of burning myself out for weeks now
autrijus do remember that this will pass, and get enough rest 04:02
nothingmuch aye
nothingmuch is constantly letting his people die in Rainbow Six 3
which is a bad thing
autrijus I am _very_ happy that you did not let me introduce you to nethack.
nothingmuch but I cant do any better
ongoing things that can be paused are usually not a big problem 04:03
i tend to play several minutes a day of those
but i'm still afraid of it ;-)
luqui nothingmuch, yes, that's the one
nothingmuch if we would have holloween i would dress up as the korova milk bar to complement 04:04
luqui If my desktop's hard drive were present I would probably be addicted to rag doll kung fu at this point
nothingmuch i'll need some mannequins, and milk, and a high end water cooling system ;-)
luqui on the other hand, the reviews weren't that great
nothingmuch (cpu cooling system)
luqui :-p
nothingmuch rag doll kung fu?
luqui an experimental fighting game that I've been looking forward to 04:05
luqui is a fan of fighting games... or rather would be if any of them were any good
nothingmuch hmm... no mac version?
luqui nein
nothingmuch watches the trailer instead 04:06
that would be very cool with a programming edge in it 04:09
luqui what would you program?
nothingmuch combos 04:10
luqui aa
nothingmuch really likes tekken (3) because of all the juggling
it's a very elegant way to kick ass
luqui always found that annoying, being at the kicked ass side 04:11
nothingmuch ah
luqui I think Soul Calibur is about as good a fighting game as they've made yet
nothingmuch i am always on the ass kicked side, except in tekken and unreal tournament
nothingmuch hasn't played that yet
luqui it's pretty good. But it's still attached to the realtime/buttonmash/energybar paradigm. 04:12
Glorified tekken, as it were. It's just very well balanced.
nothingmuch buttonmashing is not that fun
what I like in tekken is that you sometimes need to wait a second to get something in
if you are slightly less trigger happy than 100% you will win 04:13
scook0 ever tried virtua fighter?
buu You know what's better? Quake.
luqui heh
nothingmuch scook0: my parents didn't let me play violent games at that age ;-)
nothingmuch doesn't like quake
buu FREAK.
nothingmuch it's not as fun aasUT
buu meh
Same thing.
nothingmuch nuh uh
UT has more style
buu Does UT have strafe jumping and such?
luqui I remember when there was just Quake. No Quake 2, no quake 3 arena. When you said "I'm going to go online and frag somebody", you just went online and fragged somebody.
buu heh
nothingmuch you mean strafing in the air? or jumping sideways?
buu I remember playing q2 over a dialup 04:14
nothingmuch: Nope.
luqui (I actually never played Quake... any version. I'm not a big fan of FPSs)
By which I mean I despise them
buu Sucks to be you!
nothingmuch that wasn't a yes or no question, that was multiple choice ;-)
buu (0 || 0) == 0!
nothingmuch uh, your point being?
buu That 'no' means no to both. 04:15
luqui But 0! == 1
:-)
buu luqui: 0! is a syntax error!
nothingmuch ah
so wtf is strafe jumping if it's not one of those?
scook0 also !0 == 0!
buu nothingmuch: Strafe jumping is when you accelerate via jumping
luqui woah
that's scary
nothingmuch ah
buu ?eval 0!
evalbot_7763 Error: unexpected "!" expecting "x", "d", octal digit, "o", "b", digit, fraction, exponent, term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
scook0 those crazy physics exploits?
nothingmuch that's bad game design
buu nothingmuch: Bad.. game.. de.. what? What the hell? How can you even make that claim? 04:16
Obviously the rocket launchers in UT are bad game design, cause they shoot rockets.
I mean, hey, if we don't need logic..
luqui ?eval sub postfix:<!> ($x) { if $x == 0 { 1 } else { $x * ($x-1)! } } 5!
evalbot_7763 Error: unexpected "i" expecting ";", statements or "}" reserved word
luqui qua?
nothingmuch ?eval multi postfix:<!> (0) { 1 }; multi postfix:<!> ($n) { $n * ($n - 1)! }; 5!
evalbot_7763 Error: unexpected "0" expecting formal parameter, ":" or ")"
luqui didn't that used to work?
nothingmuch darn
buu: it's bad game design because it's stupid behavior 04:17
buu nothingmuch: You mean stupider than taking a rocket in the face and surviving?
nothingmuch someone didn't notice the fault in the physics engine and jump parameters
scook0 I'm not sure it was deliberate
buu nothingmuch: Dude, they put it in there deliberately.
theorbtwo nothingmuch: Because it's not like the real world?
buu Southen: It was deliberate after the first patch =]
nothingmuch no, because it's imbalanced
buu oh
nothingmuch it would be nicer if:
buu Obviously only one player can strafe jump.
nothingmuch you could jump around and be slow
or be a sitting duck and go fast
buu Oh wait, every player can strafe jump. Thus making it balanced. 04:18
luqui thinks that you only have bad game design when you make a game that isn't fun, because you've missed the whole point of making a game. For example, Deus Ex 2.
nothingmuch what does deus ex do wrong?
luqui Deus Ex was great. Deus Ex 2 was too caught up in being a movie to be a good game.
buu Deus Ex was so awesome. I've always wanted to play DX2, but everyone hated it =[ 04:19
scook0 interleaves IRC with rounds of counterstrike... 04:22
luqui counterstrike was a FPS that I actually liked pretty well 04:23
scook0 I never got into it in the HL1 days 04:25
nothingmuch oh god: www.boingboing.net/2005/10/28/no_tr..._stra.html
luqui scook0, likewise. I started at CS:S
theorbtwo Well, at least they came up with a reasonable result, even if their reasoning was completely bonkers. 04:26
luqui nothingmuch, is it just me, or did they completely miss the point?
nothingmuch who did? 04:27
luqui the article
about strawberries
the court
nothingmuch yep 04:28
theorbtwo The question was "can the scent of fresh strawberies be trademarked".
Their answer was "no".
Good answer.
nothingmuch i was actually "oh god"ing more at the court than the company
theorbtwo: the sad thing is that the answer was actually 'no, because strawberies have *five different* scents' 04:29
theorbtwo Yes.
nothingmuch on the other hand, grass has one scent, so that's OK
theorbtwo Not such a good reason.
Right.
I hope this is largely poor reporting.
nothingmuch somehow doubts the BBC will make it sound this bad 04:30
i trust the BBC more than I trust the judicinal and political systems that govern stuff that has to do with patents and trademarks and all that crap
stevan luqui: ping 05:14
luqui: I sent you a mail re: theory.pod, I am trying to understand where it fits in with the metamodel/object-space/runtime stuff I have been working on 05:15
I think it does all fit together to a degree, but the code in theory.pod is just so haskellish, so I am unclear of the details 05:16
anyway check your mail,.. I have to sleep now &
xinming seen autrijus 05:50
jabbot xinming: autrijus was seen 1 hours 47 minutes 50 seconds ago
xinming by the way, Is continuation a bit like Rule in perl 6? 06:17
luqui welll... uh 06:22
no
rule execution may be implemented using continuations, but the similarities end there
unless there is a similarity I am not seeing
xinming luqui: thanks, need more reading on haskell tutorial. 06:23
autrijus proceeds to go to the airport (to brussels) 07:09
see you in a few hours... safely in liz's place and ready to hack 07:10
<- almost finished PickAxe2
which fills my mind with weird constructs like
my $x = if 3 then { 4 } else { 5 };
(instead of)
xinming autrijus: did you meet Larry? :-P
autrijus my $x = do if 3 then { 4 } else { 5 };
xinming: sure did
worked on the tuple syntax a bit 07:11
xinming my $x = 3 ?? 4 !! 5 ;
why not use this?
autrijus sure
but still
my $x = given $y { when 3 { 4 } default { 5 } };
(in ruby all statements are expressions)
they don't have a Stmt form, it's all Exp
xinming autrijus: hmm, did Larry consider construct the object using class name in some situation? 07:12
oh,ok
autrijus xinming: I don't know... you mean like
my $dbh = DBI(dsn => $dsn, user => 'foo');
?
xinming yes. 07:13
autrijus I think it makes sense. the "new" method though is then implicit in this case
which may or may not be a good thing
<- coding monkey, not really designer
xinming hmm, sometimes, we don't need an instance to be held. 07:14
autrijus :)
autrijus goes packing some more
xinming class A { has $.a; method show { $.a.say } }; A( a = 5 ).show;
if we use A( a => 5 ).new.show, 07:15
autrijus oh, singleton classes
?
xinming the .new is a bit annonying
if there are many classes like this. :-P 07:16
autrijus I tend to agree :) 07:17
xinming hmm, most times, the small program will only hold only an instance of a class
page( document => "path/to/doc", save_to = "path/to/cache" ).process; cache( file = "path/to/cache" ).show; 07:19
that's what I think useful :-) 07:20
autrijus nodnod... otoh you can do
xinming what does otoh mean? :-S 07:21
scook0 xinming: I can see Larry's point about wanting Classname($foo) to be a cast rather than a constructor though
autrijus on the other hand
class A { sub A is export { call ./new } };
or something like that
xinming hmm, Yes, I know, we can make method to be an constructor... 07:22
autrijus: But, If there are method... This is not handful..
scook0 but if we're going to have Haskell-style data types, we'll need a shorter construction form anyway 07:23
xinming if there are lots of methods.
scook0 A:( a => 5 ).show # woo, colon!
autrijus _everybody_ wants colons! 07:24
scook0 because they're so versatile
xinming hmm, why not make `my A: $o .= new( ... )` ?
autrijus off to airport... bbl :) *wave* &
scook0 and because everything else is already taken
xinming: what are you suggesting? 07:25
xinming and use A( ... ) as a constructor?
for now, we use `my A $o .= new( ... )` to get an instance.
hmm, and I saw Larry replied about my question, 07:26
So, I just suggest using `my A: $o .= new` instead of `my A $o .= new`
scook0 xinming: oh, I didn't realise you hadn't read it
I don't think that was his objection though 07:27
xinming certainly, I won't be able to think as far as you can do, So, Just show my Humble opinion. :-( 07:28
www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6....uage/23874
?eval class A { has $.a; }; new A( a => 1 ); 07:39
evalbot_7763 Error: cannot cast from VObject (MkObject {objType = (mkType "Class"), objAttrs = <ref>, objOpaque = Nothing, objId = 51}) to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
xinming the perl 5 style doesn't works. :'( 07:40
anyone here can tell me if `class.new a => 1` would work? IMHO This is a bit like a function call without parenthesis. 07:59
Detonite Morning 08:04
xinming afternoon here. :-P 08:05
Detonite Well the point comes across still I hope 08:06
rafl_ What tests do I need to run to chech if parrot embedding works? 09:03
scook0 xinming: `class.new:a(1)` should work 09:11
`class.new a=>1` won't work because method calls need either parens or adverbs 09:12
xinming scook0: thanks 09:16
scook0 I think someone (Juerd?) was trying to get rid of the method-call-parens restriction, but I don't know if that went anywhere 09:17
xinming hmm, by the way, how about `new class: a(1)` ? 09:18
indirect object syntax can be used in method calls, how about the constructor?
though, It's a special method. 09:19
scook0 I think `new MyClass: a => 1` or `new MyClass: :a(1)` would be the syntax 09:23
`new MyClass: a(1)` would call &a with arg 1 09:24
xinming thinks perl 6 might be the most complicated language in the world... 09:36
Juerd scook0: I want method calls to be possibly parenless
Just like sub calls 09:37
It just takes everything until the end of the expression,
scook0 what was the original motivation for them being different?
xinming so do I, as method is kind of sub...
Juerd That the signature is unknown at compile time, and Perl cannot know how many arguments to take
lc $foo, $bar is actually lc($foo), $bar 09:38
While split $foo, $bar is split($foo, $bar)
scook0 do one-arg subs automatically become prefix-unary ops? 09:41
Juerd It works like that in Perl 5
And isn't specified to change, so yes.
scook0 I just wonder how that interacts with multis 09:43
Juerd The same 09:50
scook0 (there are a lot of things I wonder about multis) 09:51
like being able to pass positional args using named-arg syntax 09:52
for singular subs, it's easy enough 09:53
for multis, it's *possible*, but I doubt it can be done efficiently
r0nny yo 10:09
rafl_: alive ?
rafl_ r0nny: Sure. 10:26
r0nny rafl_: any idea hol long it will take to make your sixpan tools run under gentoo ? 10:29
hol = how
rafl_ They already do, imho. 10:30
Install dpkg and dpkg-deb and go for it.
r0nny hmm 10:32
rafl_: is there a svn repo up allready ?
rafl_ r0nny: kane uses p4. I'll set up an svk mirror soon. 10:34
r0nny p4 ? 10:35
rafl_ perforce.
r0nny sad - its comnerecial
well - going to read the license 10:36
rafl_ Well, you don't need to pay for a usable version.
I also like it, of course.
r0nny atm im a monotone fan 10:37
rafl_ Well, pugs uses svn/svk. I'll check it in its repository. 10:38
r0nny i allready installed p4 10:40
repo url ? 10:41
rafl_ I don't have my laptop handy. I guess p4.elixus.org or something like that.
r0nny argh - wont work :/ 10:43
xerox Howdy. 10:44
rafl_ r0nny: ask kane or look at the wiki.
r0nny: BrainStorming. There's a p4 url somewhere.
r0nny ok
rafl_: cant do a checkout :/ 10:48
rafl_ Ask kane.
r0nny where is he ?
rafl_ [email@hidden.address] or on irc.perl.org sometimes. 10:49
drbean h /server 11:05
r0nny hmm 11:06
hes online, but not answering :/
guess hes busy 11:07
Juerd ARGH 11:41
The term "auto reference" really clouds vision and understanding
It makes things seem MUCH more magical than they are.
An array doesn't "auto reference" "when needed". 11:42
It returns a reference to itself in scalar context, that's all.
And yes, Array context is a form of scalar context
The only thing that's a bit magical is automatic *de*referencing 11:43
THAT has the "when used as" thing. 11:44
"when used as" an array, an arrayref dereferences automatically.
But it's not so that an array "when not used as" an array, automatically references.
Or, alternatively, call +@foo auto-elemsing 11:45
And ~@foo auto-stringification
Which it is NOT. It's not auto, it's explicit because of context.
xerox Do you know in which debian package are uu{encode,decode} ?
Juerd apt-cache search uuencode 11:46
Pick the one beginning with s.
rafl_ apt-file search bin/uuencode
xinming xern: try apt-cache search uuencode 11:51
Juerd xinming: Now there's a novel idea.
xinming sharutils
Juerd xinming: Glad you thought of it.
Otherwise he'd never have found it!
xinming Juerd: :-) what I use apt-cache most time, as it might find some good related softwares. :-) 11:52
Juerd xinming: I think I have to agree.
(is blindness bliss too?) 11:53
xinming apt-cache search uuencode|grep uuencode
aish - ish/base64/uuencoded_file converter
sharutils - shar, unshar, uuencode, uudecode
Juerd You're so smart. 11:54
xinming ... 11:55
Juerd I just wish I had thought of that 11:56
theorbtwo (apt-cache)++
xinming apt-cache is a better tool most time in my opinion, apt-file is better for searching using absolute path for a file. 11:57
Juerd I use both 11:58
But apt-cache much more often
rafl_ as well.
But for the given task (finding a binary) apt-file seems to be a better tool. 11:59
xinming nods.
Juerd rafl_: Well, yes. But uudecode is often used within larger tasks, for which apt-cache might reveal integrated solutions
xinming really likes perl 6. 12:02
?eval "asdfg/" ~~ rx:perl5{^(\w+)?/(\w+)?}; $1 ?? "true".say !! "false".say ; 12:04
evalbot_7763 true bool::true
xinming Is this a bug?
$1 get nothing, But it is true.
s/get/gets/
rafl_ ?eval "asdfg/" ~~ rx:perl5{^(\w+)?/(\w+)?}; $1.perl
evalbot_7763 "\\MkMatch \{matchOk = True, matchFrom = 0, matchTo = 0, matchStr = \"\", matchSubPos = [], matchSubNamed = \{}}"
xinming I know there is a property can be set using `0 but true` 12:05
But, Why here is true?
rafl_ ?eval "asdfg/" ~~ rx:perl5{^(\w+)?/(\w+)?}; "$1" 12:06
evalbot_7763 ""
rafl_ I think it's a bug.
xinming hmm, I don't know which to choose. :-)
we can say that it is a bug, because null string should be false. 12:07
rafl_ ?eval ""
evalbot_7763 ""
rafl_ ?eval ?""
evalbot_7763 bool::false
xinming But, if we need the match status of the match, this might be right behaivour
rafl_ Well, write a test in t/pugsbugs/
xinming Ok, >_< 12:08
theorbtwo Write a test when you don't know what the correct behavior is?
rafl_ Hm, good point. 12:10
xinming I think, This might be better to ask on the mailing-list. 12:12
Juerd ?eval "foobar" =~ rx:perl5/(foo)(bar)/; "--$0--$1--"
evalbot_7763 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "foobar"
Juerd ?eval "foobar" ~~ rx:perl5/(foo)(bar)/; "--$0--$1--" 12:13
evalbot_7763 "--foo--bar--"
Juerd Simple case works.
Re (\w+)? not matching anything: its variable should be false 12:14
Not because it matched a null string, because it cannot match a null string.
But because it didn't match, because of the + condition. 12:15
xinming so many because... >_< 12:26
the test is written,
after the bug is fixed, Where should this test be?
Ok, I think I know, rules 12:27
theorbtwo rules/p5, or something?
svnbot6 r7764 | yiyihu++ | add a bug test for numbered match variable.
xinming maybe 12:28
I wonder, what will `` be used for in perl 6?
still the same as perl 5? 12:29
scook0 xinming: I'm not sure, but I think `` will be reserved for the user 12:32
(for P5 ``, use q:x//)
xinming Larry might think he used too much... :-P leave a ascii for user to play with 12:37
theorbtwo qx isn't useful enough to take a rare ASCII character for. 12:38
scook0 bah, all Perl 6 users should just go out and buy APL keyboards :-P 12:39
theorbtwo On the other hand, it has too-strong associations with qx in many people's minds to use for something else.
xinming I ever saw a pic for a keyboard with only '1' and '0' on it...
xinming wants one...
scook0 theorbtwo: personally, I always see Haskell function-infixification 12:40
xinming by the way, hmm, how do we type the unicode form of << ?
Do we have to open a program which list the unicode chars and lookup one by one? 12:41
characters*
scook0 xinming: I use AltGr+z
but it differs from platform to platform
xinming I use debian. 12:42
xinming even don't know which key is AltGr
the Alt key at the right hand side?
scook0 the right Alt, but you need to enable a keyboard layout that supports it
xinming hmm, which keyboard layout you use please? 12:43
scook0 it's a US-International one, let me check the name... 12:44
U.S. English w/ ISO9995-3
(I'm just using the Gnome keyboard config under Ubuntu) 12:45
xinming I will choose Gnome also. :-)
haha, It's designed for perl 6 12:46
«»
scook0 :»)
xinming → This might be better for method call.
How about the Zip operator? 12:47
theorbtwo There's a docs/quickref/unicode.
xinming theorbtwo: thanks 12:48
scook0 ¥ (shift-altgr-y)
theorbtwo If it doesn't have the information you want, add to it.
I personally use an en-US map with an en-UK keyboard, and use the extra key for compose.
It works /wonderfully/ for me, but isn't terribly applicable to most people (who aren't Americans using European keyboards).
xinming I wonder, Is there any differences between en-US en-UK keymap? 12:49
theorbtwo Xinming: Lots.
Not as many as en_US and de_DE, but still different enough to be quite annoying.
xinming well, in China, all Keyboard layouts are almosts the same.
If you don't change the settings in Windows, all are the same. :-) 12:50
theorbtwo American and European keyboards are even physically different -- the ones in Europe have an extra key.
scook0 where is that extra key, by the way? 12:51
theorbtwo Just to the right of left shift.
xinming hmm, the extra key is not the problem, the problem is that qwert and dvorak layout keyboard. :-)
Anyone here use dvorak layout?
scook0 I think Juerd might ... I don't myself 12:52
theorbtwo Juerd uses a Dutch version of dvorak, which I think is of his own devising.
scook0 ooh, hardcore! 12:53
Juerd theorbtwo: ?
theorbtwo Oh, I didn't relize you were here.
Juerd theorbtwo: My layout is US Dvorak.
theorbtwo Oh.
Well, I was close?
Juerd My absence shouldn't be a reason for misinformation
xinming hmm, for perl 6, there might cause another problem is that, if people wish to do programming in pure console Which can't display the unicode ...
Juerd I use dvorak, not a Dutch version of it.
US keyboards work wonderfully for Dutch. 12:54
US QWERTY and US Dvorak
theorbtwo Oh.
I'm sorry, Juerd.
Juerd Dutch keyboards exist, but they're not used much.
IBM for a long time remained ignorant about this, and shipped Dutch keyboards.
integral hmm, has someone changed how the makefile searches for parrot? it can't find my parrot tree located at ../parrot :-/
Juerd They finally understood their mistake only half a year ago.
theorbtwo Juerd: US keyboards are normal there? 12:55
Juerd theorbtwo: Yes.
xinming I use Emacs, And ever wished to changed to dvorak layout. the problem is that ←↓→ for Emacs are all different... that makes me go crazy
Juerd theorbtwo: Dutch keyboards suck.
theorbtwo: And we Dutch know how to adapt to ASCII.
theorbtwo: The only difference today is that we have US keyboards with a &euro; on the 5% key.
theorbtwo That's odd... I would think you'd use some sort of more local keyboard.
xinming in mainland China, all keyboard layouts are qwerty :-)
Juerd theorbtwo: Why? We talk in ASCII nowadays
integral the % key?!
Juerd theorbtwo: Nobody writes "ij" as a single letter anymore, even :) 12:56
Well, really old people do.
theorbtwo Economies of scale.
Juerd And we've adapted to ISO standards for currencies too 12:57
People have used NLG here, instead of the florin sign
Now, EUR, that is: unless you're a Windows cluebie, because then you are supposed to use altgr+5 for it, which generates (in Windows) chr(128), which shouldn't quite be the euro sign.
theorbtwo Ugh... no, it shouldn't. 12:58
I'm used to using € and £ now, and use utf8 as my native charset.
Juerd Also, we generally just leave out diaereses
theorbtwo Dutch is readable like that?
Juerd Certainly. 12:59
theorbtwo Nifty.
xinming ¹²³
theorbtwo Germans apparently get annoyed when you use the ascii versions.
xinming How to type the small 456?
¼½¾{[]}\
oops, sorry,
Juerd The diaeresis on the last e in Belgie is just to indicate that the "ie" isn't a diphthong
Which without diaeresis it would be 13:00
theorbtwo: It's not an umlaut, but a "trema".
theorbtwo Superscript 1..3 have latin-1 chars for them, for some odd reason. Superscript 4..9 and 0 do not, so there is no way to type them.
integral the same as English, different from German (umlaut ne diaeresis)
theorbtwo Oh, right. Forgot about that.
Juerd theorbtwo: It only breaks diphthongs
integral: diaeresis is the name for the glyph. Both are.
theorbtwo German has well-defined ascii versions as well -- ß becomes ss, ö becomes oe. People don't like them. 13:01
integral Juerd: my expression wasn't well typed then ;-)
Juerd theorbtwo: I haven't met Germans who told me they hated the ascii versions.
And in some German IRC channels I've visited, they were quite common
theorbtwo Apparently some of Jess's ex-coworkers did.
rafl_ theorbtwo: I like them. The other chars aren't on my keyboard. :-) 13:02
Juerd theorbtwo: We also don't use accents anymore
theorbtwo Oh -- I didn't realize you were German, rafl.
Juerd theorbtwo: Only in print, they're still commonly used
theorbtwo I didn't realize Dutch ever did. I'm fairly ignorant of Dutch.
rafl_ theorbtwo: I am, though.
Juerd theorbtwo: Which means that our ways with a word processor are very different from our ways in e-mail, irc, usenet and web fora :) 13:03
theorbtwo Living in Europe hasn't really disuaded me from my typically-American opinion on language: 13:04
You should all learn ours.
Juerd I rely on the spelling checker to give me tremas and accents.
Web sites follow the normal rules too
When composing HTML, I write Belgi&euml;
Not Belgie
A similar thing happens with Esperanto 13:05
For printed documents, I care about the correct circumflexes
For websites, I care about them, but they're too much trouble (lack of good HTML support) 13:06
And anywhere else, I just use the ASCII variants
cx, gx, hx, jx, sx, ux
integral a
Juerd See also juerd.nl/iksoj
(Esperanto has no X in the alphabet, which makes these unambiguous) 13:07
theorbtwo You should possibly revise en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_languag...ing_system
Juerd It's still all correct 13:09
It just doesn't cover typical Dutch adaption-because-of-laziness
theorbtwo Yeah. 13:11
I think that's very interesting from a socological viewpoint.
Juerd That it doesn't mention the ij ligature is bad.
(It's a letter, not a ligature, by the way)
I've stopped editing wikipedia articles, though
Most commonly the changes are undone within minutes
By someone who claims they know more about the subject 13:12
And if you prove your numbers are correct, then typically you're not allowed to use them, because they're part of an official report, which is copyrighted, blah blah.
Wikipedia is a nice source of information 13:13
Just don't trust any of it.
theorbtwo That's one of the few really nice things I've found about American copyright law. 13:15
Offical government reports are /not/ subject to copyright. 13:16
This is in sharp contrast to the UK where not only are they copyright, they are a special magical copyright that /never/ expires.
Juerd They're not subject to copyright here either. HOWEVER, wikipedians generally do not know this. 13:17
And it's often very unclear whether something is government information
Our goverment is partly run by private organizations, and their exact status is hard to discover
theorbtwo That's also true of the US government these days. 13:18
Juerd afk
theorbtwo ...and things that a private company made that were paid for by the government /are/ subject to copyright.
...and to patent.
Which quite annoys me.
svnbot6 r7765 | juerd++ | clarification 13:21
xinming how to know if the user is logged in in web programming please? 13:51
Or anyone here can show me a url about this category? 13:52
If I use google and use keyword, login web programming the results aren't useful...
hmm, Use perl 5. 13:53
theorbtwo Try search.cpan.org, session.
xinming theorbtwo: thanks 13:54
is session implemented by cookie? 13:59
theorbtwo Generally. 14:05
Better, though, is to use the cookie to identify the individual browser, and store the mapping from cookies to any useful information on the server.
Otherwise, people can use the cookie for various nefarious purposes.
xinming thanks. I think I know how to do this. :-) 14:18
find a bug, But really hard to catch... 15:48
xinming is still trying
r0nny hmm - sweet - the perl6 channel is bound to meta-p 16:08
svnbot6 r7766 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props. 16:16
r7766 | iblech++ | * t/pugsbugs/numbered-match-variable.t: Added a subtest.
eric256__ hey someone made the tests on smooke.pugscode.org actualy point to the tests!!! ;) 16:40
xinming anyone here can tell me if the class in perl 6 has to be use Upper case at the first letter? 17:04
eric256__ no there are no case restrictions on class names 17:06
?eval class a {}; 17:07
evalbot_7766 undef
xinming haha, I finally found the bug... :-P 17:08
?eval class a { has $.a; method show { $.a.say; } }; class b { has $.a; method BUILD { a.new( a => $.a ).show; }; } b.new( a => 100 ); 17:09
evalbot_7766 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&show"
xinming ?eval my $a = 9; class a { method b { $a - 3 } }; a.new.b; $a.say; 17:47
evalbot_7766 9 bool::true
xinming Is this right?
Is this right behaviour?
eric256__ ?eval my $a = 9; class a { method b { $a - 3 } }; a.new.b.say; $a.say; 17:48
evalbot_7766 6 9 bool::true
eric256__ what part are you expecting not to work 17:49
xinming ?eval my $a = 9; class a { method b { $a -= 3 } }; a.new.b; $a.say;
evalbot_7766 6 bool::true
xinming ...
hold on.
?eval my $var = 9;class a { has $.a;method update { $var -= $.a; }}; eval 'a.new( a => 3 ).update'; 17:51
evalbot_7766 \6
xinming ?eval my $var = 9;class a { has $.a;method update { $var -= $.a; }}; eval 'a.new( a => 3 ).update'; $var.say
evalbot_7766 6 bool::true
xinming strange... 17:52
I wrote this in test, the $var won't update
won't be updated. 17:53
eric256__ but it is updated
xinming eric256__: co the svn 17:55
eric256__ it updated in your tests right there on eval bot. so i'm confused what your problem is.
xinming eric256__: But this line in test won't work. 17:56
eric256__ ahh. which tests file?
svnbot6 r7767 | yiyihu++ | Add 3 tests to test class name and attribute name conflictions... 17:57
xinming pugsbug/class_name_and_attribute_name_confliction.t 17:58
eric256__ hehe. thaty doesn't work in the pugs interactive interface 18:01
?eval my $var = 9;class a { has $.a;method update { $var -= $.a; }}; eval 'a.new( a => 3 ).update'; $var.say
evalbot_7767 6 bool::true
eric256__ odd...very odd
?eval &*PUGS_VERSION
evalbot_7767 \sub {...}
eric256__ ?eval $*PUGS_VERSION 18:02
evalbot_7767 \undef
eric256__ ?eval $*VERSION
evalbot_7767 \undef
xinming It's magic version...
eric256__ if i -e it it does that, if i run it in interactive it doesn't 18:03
xinming and also in test, :-) 18:04
my @t =( "Int", "Str"); @var>>.new 19:29
should this be valid in perl 6?
oops 19:30
my @t =( "Int", "Str"); @t>>.new
19:30 Lopo_ is now known as Lopo
integral hmm, soft references? :-) 19:30
xinming yes 19:31
?eval my $t = "Int"; $t.new( 3 ); 19:32
evalbot_7767 Error: Must only use named arguments to new() constructor
wolverian erm. why not just (Int, Str)>>.new :)
xinming ?eval my $t = "Int"; $t.new;
evalbot_7767 Str.new();
xinming this works,
but not @t
wolverian that does _not_ work 19:33
it calls the .new method of Str
not Int, as I think you wanted
why do you want to use soft references?
xinming wolverian: because we some times need dynamic object creation.
wolverian xinming, use a hash. :)
xinming the hyper operator exists, so I want that way.. :-) 19:35
wolverian xinming, (Int, Str)>>.new 19:36
eric256__ hey...i'm setting up tests.pugscode.org to highlight tests that fail or are marked as todo...any ideas what to do when there is more than one test on the same line? or should i just let it flub those? ;) 20:27
20:54 Lopo_ is now known as Lopo 20:56 eric256__ is now known as eric256
obra how often is there more than on etest on the same line? 21:20
"sounds like the test suite should be fixed"
eric256 yea. i was thinking the same thing
nearly impossible to work with those tests 21:21
feather.perl6.nl/~eric256/t_index/t.../want.html
too bright?
obra a little bright 21:24
eric256 yea..just commited it if you would like to play with the css some ;)
svnbot6 r7768 | eric256++ | Upadted catalog_tests.pl script to highlight tests on a pass/fail basis. Needs support for todo, skip, and tests spanning multiple lines. 21:28
nothingmuch eric256: make the green slightly lighter so there is more contrast between the bg and the text 21:37
eric256 got an exact css change? i'm not good with that stuff ;) 21:38
nothingmuch instead of #0f0 make it around #3f3
but I'm not good with that stuff either ;-)
use FF + web developer
nothingmuch can't do it now (too many obligations) 21:39
but nice work =)
eric256 thanks. i'll play with it some
svnbot6 r7769 | eric256++ | Trouble updating perl.t so i'm trying perl2.t 21:58
eric256 arg
i deleted a file and i can't get svk to pull it back to my folder 21:59
theorbtwo Oooh, I like the highliting the line of the test by result. 22:02
eric256 any ideas how to force svk to pull a file from the repo that i deleted localy? tried svk pull, svk up, svk pull perl.t, svk sync....blah it hates me 22:03
revdiablo You removed but didn't commit yet? With svn it'd be 'svn revert' 22:05
I dunno if svk has something analagous
eric256 yea tried that too.
eric256 is nearly to the point of deleteing the whole thing and checking it out agian 22:07
hehe. /me saved over the new copy with an old copy and commited that....joy 22:10
lol
Juerd Oh no! 22:21
There's no turning back!
Now we depend on the backup tape from a week ago!
Let's hope the data's still on the two year old maglint... 22:22
rafl_ Good evening. 22:53
Juerd If that makes you happy, sure :)
Have a good one yourself
nothingmuch rafl_: you have increased my hacker mojo significantly 23:02
people respect me now
rafl_ nothingmuch: Did I? Why? 23:03
And WTF is a hacker mojo anyway? :-)
nothingmuch the debian pkg ;-)
it's the amount of rezpekt you get from other people =)
rafl_ What do people use those modules for? I only packaged them as reverse dependencies. 23:06
And beside that: The honor is mine! I packaged it!!1 23:16
eric256 is there a way to have perl output the time and timezone? ;) then the updated stamp on tests.pugcode.org would have some meaning. ;) 23:40
any comments on the columns in the file listing would be appriciated too ;) 23:41
wolverian eric256, perldoc -f time 23:42
rafl_ Thought localtime could do that.
wolverian that's what I meant. 23:43
:(
eric256 neither say anything about timezones. 23:44
wolverian it's right there in the localtime string! 23:47
eric256 not on feather.
wolverian huh. you're right.
eric256 or on my computer. lol 23:48
?eval localtime();
evalbot_7769 \Time::Local.new(("day" => 30), ("hour" => 1), ("is_dst" => bool::true), ("min" => 48), ("month" => 10), ("picosec" => 909348000000), ("sec" => 29), ("tz" => 7200), ("tzname" => "CEST"), ("wday" => 1), ("yday" => 302), ("year" => 2005));
eric256 sure pugs has it. ;)
wolverian nice
it's even an object :)
?eval localtime.tzname 23:49
evalbot_7769 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&tzname"
wolverian well thank's for teasing
eric256 ?eval localtime().{tzname};
evalbot_7769 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&tzname"
eric256 ?eval localtime().<tzname>;
evalbot_7769 \"CEST"
wolverian I like objects more.
note that you can write that:
?eval localtime<tzname>
evalbot_7769 \Time::Local.new(("day" => 1), ("hour" => 1), ("is_dst" => bool::false), ("min" => 0), ("month" => 1), ("picosec" => 0), ("sec" => 0), ("tz" => 3600), ("tzname" => "CET"), ("wday" => 7), ("yday" => 0), ("year" => 2000));
wolverian or maybe not. 23:50
?eval localtime.<tzname>
evalbot_7769 Error: unexpected "." expecting term, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
eric256 lol
wolverian that should work, though
?eval localtime()<tzname>
evalbot_7769 \"CEST"
eric256 maybe no. because localtime can accept a parameter
theorbtwo Huh?
Isn't it just CET in Europe now? 23:51
eric256 has no clue regarding anything involving time...whats the offset for CEST? it says the timezon is 7200 but what is that? and why did it just siwtch between CEST and CET? /me confused 23:52
wolverian theorbtwo, not yet. 23:53
theorbtwo, in Finland it's still two hours of EEST :)
theorbtwo Oh -- at 1 UTC, not 1 local.
wolverian right. 23:54
theorbtwo CEST is GMT+2; CET is GMT+1. 23:56
And if your clock is already saying CET, then it's a bit off as it shouldn't be CET for another 1 and a half minutes. 23:57
(Mark.)
eric256 ?eval localtime(); 23:58
evalbot_7769 \Time::Local.new(("day" => 30), ("hour" => 1), ("is_dst" => bool::true), ("min" => 58), ("month" => 10), ("picosec" => 18804000000), ("sec" => 14), ("tz" => 7200), ("tzname" => "CEST"), ("wday" => 1), ("yday" => 302), ("year" => 2005));
Juerd (what) (are) (all) (those) (parens) (there)?
theorbtwo It is looking a bit lispy. 23:59
wolverian maybe it just wants to make sure.
theorbtwo OK, summer time has ended as of....
...now.

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