6.2.11 released! | pugs.blogs.com | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | < audreyt> my fingers juxpatosed
Set by nothingmuch on 24 February 2006.
gaal rehi 00:01
hermatize how do i make my own rss feed 00:04
audreyt
audreyt hermatize: study search.cpan.org/dist/XML-RSS/lib/RSS.pm 00:05
jisom quick poll of people here, which seems better.....'try {open FOO, "<file"; print FOO "bar\n"; close FOO} catch {die $!}' or 'open FOO, "<file" or die $!;print FOO "bar\n" or die $!;close FOO or die $!"?
00:07 coumbes joined
jisom keeps getting warnocked often 00:08
00:08 penk joined
huhlig Can't use string ("0") as an ARRAY ref while "strict refs" in use at StarMUD/Network.pm line 52. 00:13
mrr?
my $ready_sockets = IO::Select->select( # Select which handles have data
$server->{'connections'},
undef, undef, 0);
foreach my $socket (@$ready_sockets) {
what did I miss
audreyt jisom: use Fatal, maybe ;) but I usually only check for open 00:14
jisom the concept's come up for the proposal for putting a specification on parrot's io subsystem
audreyt huhlig: I'm quite sure ->select isn't to be used as that 00:15
you maybe want ->can_read
jisom: oh. the first then.
huhlig audreyt: 00:16
jisom ok, so that's 100% for, 0% against :)
huhlig audreyt: can_read?
mrr
hmm ok 00:17
spinclad as long as I have nothing better to do on generic error than die $!, then might as well wrap the whole program like #1. any hot spots I want to handle differently, I can locally. 00:20
( jisom: ^ )
jisom it does have better simplicity.....the drawback, which's come up, that not all languages can do that.......some need the return value...and parrot's intended to be language agnostic, sort of 00:21
so there's the subsystem interface, and then how compilers would work with that, etc... 00:22
spinclad ah. was just speaking as another perl hacker, there.
jisom well perl6'll run on parrot so it's somewhat relevant :) 00:23
huhlig oook
interesting issue
audreyt whew. finally finished journal entry #0
still ~4 to go
but I'll sleep now :)
audreyt waves
huhlig the select runs... and it almost seems to freeze
TimToady sweet dreams
huhlig then it suddenly kicks in with 50 or so iterations 00:24
audreyt TimToady: oh hey. :) saw my question re: disabling perl_peep() in MAD?
TimToady no, still bling.
stevan_ lets TimToady have some of his bling :P
audreyt imagines TimToady going "bling bling"
stevan_ imagines TimToady wearing a big diamond encrusted Camel on a gold rope chain 00:25
audreyt TimToady: in a nutshell, I wonder if MAD is turning off the peephole optimizer so as to preserve more info; if it is not, maybe that's a fruitful direction ("no optimizer;" does wonders to kill constant folding etc)
TimToady It's already known that disabling peep() causes a non-functional perl, alas...
audreyt oh? *surprised*
TimToady peep doesn't just, er, peep... 00:26
audreyt totally nonfunctional, or just not bug-for-bug compatible?
gaal: btw, _lotsa_ kudos for lending me the Wittgenstein Biography book 00:27
it enabled me to have a much firmer grasp of this perl6 thing :)
TimToady It's pretty ugly. On the other hand, by the time you get to peep() it's not really freeing nodes any more, just nulling them out, so the original stuff is still there for nomad.
audreyt (it's amazon.com/gp/product/0140159959/ for curious folks.) 00:28
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audreyt TimToady: ahh. because mad kicks in before that 00:29
so we can (presumably) denull the nulls using mad info alone? 00:30
(reconstruct the nulled nodes, i.e.)
TimToady That's what nomad does, and those nodes are reconstructed by the astnull methods. 00:31
audreyt okay, so ast are the (conceptual) opnodes, and madprops its textual annotations
cool. in other news, Nicholas and I both built the nomad tree just fine :)
but we don't have the copy-mad-again-into-nomad patch 00:32
TimToady not just textual, but anything that perl5 was inclined to forget.
audreyt the one you worked on after I received the snapshot
TimToady right, I'll have to send that, but I've been busy recovering from two weeks away from home. Washing machine blew a hose and flooded the whole garage.
audreyt can you put it somewhere (your ~/public_html/ on feather.perl6.nl, for example)? also, your takahashi slides explaining how it works, if possible :)
awwww 00:33
TimToady and Lewis decided to skip class for 4 days in a row without telling us...
so I've been a bit preoccupied...
audreyt (mm that sounds familiar)
TimToady shall I just diff with the .tgz I sent before? 00:34
audreyt hmm, I thought it's just the single nomad program?
(you can also tar up the entire thing and put it to feathre)
TimToady i'll have to check to see if I tweaked anything else.
stevan_ audreyt: why are we not using p5->p5 to serialize the MM to YAML?
audreyt I've put a tree up for Nicholas and others at perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tmp/p55.tbz
stevan_: err what does p5's opcode tree have to do with the MM? 00:35
stevan_ true
sorry,.. got excited while reading the journal :P
audreyt TimToady: so maybe diff against that? :)
TimToady ok
audreyt but in any case, it's 1:35 now and I'll crash -- see you tomorrow :) 00:36
TimToady tata
svnbot6 r9314 | putter++ | Regexp-ReplaceEngine.pm - $&,$1,$-[0],etc are now all set. At least for non-utf8 strings. Next step, making the the hooks non-global.
jisom you know, Jonathan's .NET to PIR could help with getting perl5 on parrot...
audreyt TimToady++ # p55 is truly exciting, the more I look at it
*waves*
FurnaceBoy n8
00:36 penk joined
Daveman :p 00:37
stevan_ putter, fglock: does pXie run macros? 00:38
putter yes :) 00:39
stevan_ cool
putter Regexp-ReplaceEngine... it's *alive*. ;) first light. 00:40
stevan_ putter: any examples of macro usage?
putter ?? - you just accessed the full depth of my knowledge on the topic. 00:41
stevan_ cool, I will dig then 00:42
putter tries to resist spiking to perl -w -MRegexp::WithRules -e 'sub foo{qr/bar/} "foobar"=~/foo<foo>/'... 00:44
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stevan_ putter: where is the pXie stuff in the tree? 00:48
putter stevan_: good question, let's see...
misc/pX/Common/iterator_engine ? 00:49
stevan_ ah,,.. thanks
putter Ok, I'm officially punting on trying to unbreak -C parsing of use(), and thus pil2js. The problem is -C doesn't use the Prelude, and that's the only place where use() is defined at present. A parse without it interprets use Foo as a method Str::use call. A Prim.hs op1 "use" cannot continue to exist, because Parser.hs gives it precedence over the Prelude macro. 00:53
Options are to get some version of the Prelude included even in -C (the code macro use($m){"use_('$m')"} may be suffient, but I'm really not sure). Or perhaps change the Parser.hs's handling of use() to be more like require(). Or leave it broken until compilation gets smarter. Or...??? 00:56
I've hit ENOMOREHOURS on this process. Sorry. 00:57
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pasteling "stevan" at 67.186.136.119 pasted "p6 class -> p6 MOP calls macro sketch" (82 lines, 1.8K) at sial.org/pbot/16191 01:08
stevan_ putter: if you have a sec,... please sanity check that paste
putter back. looking... 01:22
stevan_ putter: I think my syntax is likely wrong 01:23
stevan_ wonders if putter got lost? 01:27
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putter always. let's see... $.bar? note that module names can be quite rich, so this is only a subset. (pause) 01:30
probably need to (err, is santity check a typo check?) 01:31
looks broadly sane.
stevan_ putter: I think twigils are slowly falling out of style
putter I find the q:code { {{{$x}}} } construct isnt working for me (at least on -e lines) 01:32
stevan_ and the module name bit,.. you are correct,.. that is simplified for sure
putter: you mean actually running the code?
putter yes
stevan_ oh,.. I didnt even try that yet :)
putter are accessors o.a($val) or o.a = $val ? 01:33
ie, lvalue subs
stevan_ I dont know actually
stevan_ checks S12
01:33 stevan_ is now known as stevan
stevan I think "is rw" implies a lvalue-ish accessor 01:35
putter the global namespace binding might be... $*::($name) := if it were a scalar, I dont remember the sigil for types. at least, that was once the form of dynamic... oh, wait, this is a macro... but a code macro... (hmm, it might be easier to start with string macros perhaps?)... for of dynamic name is ::(blah)...
stevan putter: well Class.isa(Package), so its just assigning a subpackage off the main one 01:36
putter yeah, but class isa type too, which package isnt... 01:37
stevan hmm... that is an issue
well I think maybe we will need both
namespace binding and then some kind of type binding 01:38
putter one nice thing about source macros is when they dont work, you can dump them out and fiddle with the source, trying to find out what exactly is making pugs unhappy. otoh, perhaps pugs will give better error messages for code macros. 01:39
makes sense
stevan I am just fiddling here,.. either technique is fine with me,.. 01:40
but does the overall expansion idea make sense?
putter can has $.x = initialization code; ?
yes
stevan should that be parsed: ("has $.x" == initialzation code)? 01:41
putter might have to use 'is parsed' if pugs's default handling isnt quite what you need. ie, if it sets up scoping before handing you the block.
stevan is having trouble expanding the putter macros
its been a long day
putter s/handling/argument handling/ 01:42
sorry, can has() declarations take an initializer?
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putter ie, re handling, might need to do macro class is parsed (/:w class mumble \{ <statements>+ \}/) {...} 01:43
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stevan has to run, later all & 01:44
putter none of my macro interpolation attempts 01:45
ah ok, bye
are working, eg
./pugs -e 'macro m($b){ q:code {my $x=3; {{{$b}}} } } my $x=2; m {say $x}'
to see how binding works out
sorry if i was impenetrable. long day indeed. 01:47
TimToady putter: re has taking initializer, do you mean P6 or pugs? P6 specs initializers that are applied at BUILD time... 01:51
don't know if pugs supports it yet...
putter thanks. just helping stevan explore the sanity of his strawman. (hmm, there's an image) 01:54
TimToady k 01:55
putter TimToady: oh, Regexp::EngineReplace, is, well, replacing. ignoring utf8 for now. and no doubt buggy. but am tempted to hook something up to it. :) 01:56
TimToady Er, have the appropriate amount of fun. 01:57
putter audreyt: re just plug PCRE in - PCRE would be a rather harder nut that the regexp-spike engine. in the spike, we go back to p5, and only use the real engine for the leaves. in PCRE we would have to deal with callbacks etc. 01:59
jisom could work on improving PGE's p5 regex rules....and just use parrot for p6 rules and p5 regex 02:00
putter still need to call out to embedded p5 code.
jisom p5's not on parrot yet...Jonathan's .NET to PIR project for his thesis(I think) would help put compiled p5 on parrot.... 02:01
putter retypes example, making sure not to start line with /
/ foo (??{ qr_returning_bar(32) }) /
jisom oh yeah, that's evaled, not compiled... 02:02
too many complications 02:04
putter that sort of characterizes this whole area - too many complications. 02:05
hmm, that sort of characterizes software engineering.
FurnaceBoy life?
putter civilization?
jisom sounds like technology in general
quantum physics? 02:06
putter lol
FurnaceBoy 's brain hurts
putter though QM has a bit of a bad rap. because it also has the dual characteristics of being somewhat non-intuitive, and of almost universally being explained really really really badly. 02:07
jisom like "this photon is both going through the mirror and being bounced off the mirror at the same time"?
or teleportation, which Einstein called "that spooky thing quarks do" 02:08
FurnaceBoy that's a good explanation!
:-)
putter I'm thinking more along the lines of "how much of an atomic bond is classical electrostatics".
stevan putter: yes the "is parsed()" bit would need to be there
FurnaceBoy hums, 'how much is that doggy in the window'
stevan only skimmed the macro spec 02:09
02:09 dduncan left
jisom awaits comments on p6i about his macro expansion proposal 02:09
putter p6l or p6i? 02:14
jisom p6i 02:15
I don't read p6l, just recently got ghc and pugs to compile
internals are more fun :-D 02:16
putter :)
"Regexp::EngineReplace", or some better name? 02:17
Regexp::EngineHook
Regexp::Hook
jisom Regexp::Snafu 02:18
what's it do? 02:19
putter guess that's a vote for need a new name :) 02:20
jisom switch from pge to pcre to perl5?
putter regexp compilation /foo/ and execution "a" =~ ... are callbacked to p5 subs, rather than being handled by the usual p5 engine. 02:21
jisom ok...
putter one could use a similar mechanism to do pge or pcre. but there you wouldnt particularly want to go back to p5 (hmm, unless... well anyway).
jisom needs a new name
putter ideas? 02:22
jisom well simple p5 regex can use pge...
Regexp::Run
putter yes, one could certainly use the same hook this module uses (and the documentation on the hook scavanged on it:), to get a pure c pge or pcre replacement built. but... 02:23
hmm
jisom there's a c pge? 02:24
putter :)
parrot == C
jisom pge is in pir
no c for pge
putter pir == parrot == C
no?
jisom perl == perl vm == c? 02:25
same exact concept
putter Thus most of Regex::ReplaceEngine (or whatever) is written in Inline::C / XS. 02:26
jisom scary
putter there seem to be lots of parrot p5 modules... can one easily use parrot/pge from within p5? 02:28
jisom parrot p5 modules?
putter search.cpan.org/~ltoetsch/parrot-0.4.2/
jisom those are config/build modules 02:29
once parrot's built, it doesn't use perl
putter notices the modules which looked exciting are listed under "Documentation". :( eg, PGE::Match 02:30
an no one has yet gotten parrot to the Inline::Parrot stage?
jisom well, you could freeze the object, print it out, and parse it in pugs, or use Data::Dumper on it in parrot and parse that in pugs 02:31
you mean embed PIR in perl5?
putter search.cpan.org/~fglock/Inline-Parr.../Parrot.pm though it's dated before a lot of calling convention changes. 02:32
jisom eh, calling conventions got updated again today ;) 02:33
but not for pir
only pasm
putter search.cpan.org/~fglock/Inline-Parr.../parrot.pm
jisom "The current version does not work with arrays, hashes, references."
I don't think it'd like working with coroutines then 02:34
but
if the iteration is done in pir
inlining pir and using pge shouldn't be so impossible 02:35
putter so it sounds like noone has made a parrot module thing by which one can easily dynamically embed a parrot in p5. yes?
jisom this is the first I've heard of Inline::Parrot
putter :)
jisom what's the basic thing that the Regexp::EngineSwitcherthing does? with regard to implementation 02:39
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jisom eww....it uses parrot's preprocessor 02:43
eh, sometime I might hack it to get it working.......failing 200% of most tests, and 142.86% of one isn't good 02:46
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putter R:ES ;) ... good question... 02:52
it looks like how things are about to turn out is, R:ES hooks up the p5 internals which consume regexps, with p5 callback subs. one which "compiles" a regular expression, returning the number of parens, and p5 a comparison sub. when the re is used, the comparison sub is called, and returns success/failure, and capture offsets. 02:56
The second part allows you to fake a qr// object with p5 code for the first time. The first part allows /foo/ to create them instead of normal ones. 02:57
Very good question. I think I'll package things differently as a result :) 02:58
jisom well for pge, you load the pge compiler for what you want, p6 rules, p5 regex, shell glob, etc, compile the regex(exception thrown on error, so catchable), and the compiler returns an invokeable subroutine, pass the text into that subroutine and you get a match object 03:00
putter yes. that seems to be the universal approach. 03:01
jisom p6rule_compile = compreg "PGE::P6Rule"
rulesub = p6rule_compile(pattern)
match = rulesub(text)
that's the basic layout...
just to make it easier to be able to add pge into it as well
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putter ok, new packaging. Regexp::QR , a base class for anything which wishes to be used with =~, split, etc, 03:02
and Regexp::... i dont know, compile hook... what are // etall called? regexp literals? 03:03
jisom regex delimiters? 03:04
putter i mean the whole concept of having /foo/ and m/foo/ and qr/foo/ and s/foo// in your code, rather than calling some_sub('foo'). 03:05
jisom simplicity? I think php uses the sub('foo') method
well, programmer simplicity
I don't know
putter "Regexp Quote-Like Operators" 03:06
Regexp::OperatorHook 03:07
jisom oh just call it Regexp::PatternCompile
something 03:08
I don't know
jisom never thought about what // were called
putter yeah, but compiling is what some regexp engine will do. this just gives you a callback which is called when an operator is defined/compiled. 03:09
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jisom Regexp::PassBuck 03:11
?
putter lol
jisom sounds like what it's doing
:) 03:12
robkinyon www.capitolhillblue.com/blog/2006/0...ibili.html 03:14
If you're in the US, that's just creepy
If you're not, have a good laugh on us
:-/
jisom so if you owe money to the government, and one payment is a lot more than the normal monthly, does the government think you're supporting terrorism? 03:17
robkinyon It's "different" and, as everyone knows, "different" == "bad" and "terrorism" == "bad", therefore "different" == "terrorism" 03:18
jisom maybe someday they'll actually define terrorism so they have to stop using it so much 03:19
robkinyon why would they do that?! 03:20
it's *much* more fun this way ...
jisom they won't
if they did, then all those Iraqi insurgents attacking U.S. soldiers wouldn't be terrorists anymore
if they attack coalition forces, they're "freedom fighters", if they attack Iraqi forces, they're rebels, if they attack civilians, they're terrorists....collateral damage is just that.....intent matters 03:22
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diotalevi Is the //, defined-or operator still named "err" in perl6? 03:26
03:29 samv_home is now known as samv, samv is now known as mugwump
FurnaceBoy no,, even if you're not in the US it's creepy. for the same reason '1984' is creepy. 03:30
jisom which part of 1984? the fact that it could be true? 03:32
diotalevi has a slightly different translation from that "different" -> ... -> "terrorism" thing. That it's an anomaly and it's easier to spy on exceptions than unremarkable events. So if you decide to just spy indiscriminantly, this is a selection method you might use. 03:33
jisom or the ominous ending
Steve_p I thought "Hot For Teacher" was very disturbing
03:33 justatheory joined
jisom I like that song! 03:33
Steve_p jumps to Panama 03:34
I haven't built pugs in so long, I can't remember if its dor or err 03:35
...of course you could write a rule to make it the way you want 03:36
diotalevi I was mostly just asking because 'err' is such a disaster in p5. I wanted to know if p6 had learned from it. 03:38
speaking strictly of p5 where 'err', the defined-or operator actually exists which is some custom patched stuff and bleadperl.
jisom it's in perl for freebsd, the // operator 03:39
diotalevi means the string "err" to refer to the operator.
Not the operator itself.
jisom oh
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Steve_p Tux writes creates all the dor patches for Perl 5.8 03:44
huhlig question... is there anyway to have multiple hash keys point to one value?
Steve_p If you mean several keys that have a reference to the same value, yes 03:45
...and in Perl 5 too.
huhlig how?
diotalevi knows a straightforwrd p5ish way but if there's a more magical p6 way... dunno.
huhlig or a document to show how 03:46
diotalevi Store the same reference at all the keys.
huhlig so $hash->{'A'}=$data 03:50
$hash->{'B'}=$data
TimToady diotalevi: I think the P5 "err" patch is botched. It should only be recognizing the keyword when an operator is expected.
huhlig $hash->{'C'}=$data
?
doesnt that still use 3 times the storage? 03:51
TimToady (much like the x operator)
diotalevi hasn't noticed any particular actual breakage, it's the *name* that's the complaint.
Steve_p Actually, its been un-botched I believe 03:52
TimToady Ok, I was only looking at 5.9.2 sources...
diotalevi That err, erl, error are all words that go together. From a different language but the meaning is obvious.
TimToady Using an undefined value is an error. 03:53
diotalevi huhlig, $hash_ref->{'A'} = \ $data; $hash_ref->{'B'} = \ $data; $hash_ref->{'C'} = \ $data
... 03:54
Steve_p It was changed in Perl 5 to allow the "err" keyword only when requested 03:55
diotalevi No... it's a kind of error, maybe. Except when it isn't.
Steve_p err...5.9.3..
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TimToady "err" is currently illegal when an operator is expected. 03:56
(where currently means 5.8) 03:57
Just as you can have sub x even though there's an 'x' operator.
diotalevi I was referring to more to blead/p6.
diotalevi is resisting but hasn't actually thought of any place he'd use "err"/"dor" that isn't already some exception-alike branch. 03:59
TimToady I would certainly not change from err to dor 'cause I think 'dor' is 04:00
dorky.
diotalevi Maybe it's because "X defined or Y" is just a different phrase in my head than "X error Y".
TimToady If we could come up with something else entirely, maybe.
robkinyon def
TimToady Well, in SNOBOL it was "fail" or some such.
robkinyon def == "define" or "default"
or, just plain old "default" 04:01
my $x = $y default 'foo';
TimToady 99% of the time it's gonna be used to catch a failure.
robkinyon 99% of the time, it's gonna be used to set a default
particularly on the args for a subroutine
diotalevi rob, you'd use the higher precedence form // for that.
04:01 diotalevi is now known as jjore
robkinyon for failures, i'll be using //, not err 04:01
jjore For failures you'd use //? 04:02
TimToady Yes, // is for defaults
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jisom I prefer using "or" over ||, but I don't think err reads well.....may make sense, but doesn't read easily....broken english 04:02
robkinyon actually, for defaults, i use "my $x = $y; $x = 'foo' unless defined $y" because Devel::Cover misreports the || (or //) as only testing two cases
maybe i'm flipping the precedence bit re: defaults vs. errors 04:03
Steve_p Devel::Cover isn't fully set up to handle dor code
robkinyon or maybe i just don't program like you guys
jjore You'd have to write stuff like LHS = ( RHS err ...) and FUNC( ... ) // stuff then. You'd make all the parens mandatory to get the parsing right!
robkinyon jjore: I just don't write code like that 04:04
Steve_p ...or send bug reports to pjcj
jjore You just said you always type C< open( ... ) || ... > instead of C< open ... or ...>. Didja mean that?
robkinyon no, i didn't 04:05
robkinyon needs more ice cream
i use C<open .. or ...>
jjore didn't think you were trying to be that cross-grain with the precedence.
robkinyon so, that would turn into C<blessed() err ''> 04:06
hmm ... that was a really odd experience. I just realized I was soft-sold on // and err 04:08
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jjore You musta sold it to yourself then. 04:11
Good thing you had one in stock.
Steve_p blinks 04:12
robkinyon LOL
No - I mean the whole dor/err/name discussion
04:13 mk_ left
robkinyon if the low-precedence version is 99% for errors, then it makes sense to call it "err" 04:13
if the one used for defaults will almost always be the operator, then it doesn't matter what the low-precedence name is
jjore "error" is how I imagine I'd use "err" but it isn't how I read it. I still expect to read it "defined or." Not that I'm wrong in how I want to read it.
robkinyon i guess i'd just consider them unrelated operators that coincedentally happen to use the same mechanism under the covers 04:14
Steve_p I expect to read it "err...I forgot about that"
robkinyon Plus, in Perl6, couldn't you just change the parser to read 'dor' as 'err'?
jjore is ignoring that the parser can be folded, spindled, and multilated at whim. 04:15
Steve_p folds up Perl 6 and puts in his back pocket
robkinyon I don't think it's fair to complain about a keyword when ignoring the most powerful feature of Perl 6
jisom it could be possible to have a "japanese perl6" version that just uses a different grammar parser, hypothetically, depending on how that compiler's written
Steve_p I'm reminded of the orignal Bourne shell code 04:16
err original
robkinyon I'm figuring that one of the first big CP6AN modules will be how to alias keywords
jjore had a great set of instructions from 3M once on how to repair a 5.25/3.5 floppy disk. It involved using scissors to cut the media out of the bad sleeve, open a good sleeve, wash it with dish soap, put it back together with masking tape. 04:17
Steve_p IIRC, Bourne wrote macros to make C look like Pascal
huhlig is there a way to make XML::TreeBuilder Ignore case in tags? 04:18
jisom I thought ada....it was some language other than c, I think I have it too
Steve_p huhlig, case in tags is significant in XML 04:20
jjore huhlig, that'd be improper XML. XML is *all*about* being proper. I kind of doubt anything will let you do that. Maybe you could convince Twig to do that.
huhlig hmm
is there anyway to stuff a lc in there first?
Steve_p No, then it would not be XML 04:21
robkinyon why do you need case-insensitivity?
jjore huhlig, the office XML party line is that if you don't follow XML rules strictly, it can't be called XML.
robkinyon seems like the two parties reading this file should be agreeing on something as simple as case
huhlig stupid users
jjore er, s/office/official/ 04:22
04:24 kakos joined 04:29 FurnaceBoy_ joined
huhlig which is faster for access, hash or array? 04:37
FurnaceBoy_ not much between them, when I've measured 04:38
huhlig ok cool
FurnaceBoy_ I measured a 256 element array of consecutive values. for wildly different structures, ymmv. 04:39
huhlig hmm ok 04:40
jjore Hash access *is* more complicated than array access but usually you never care about that. 04:49
jisom generally if you're using has access, you either need it, or want it for readability and maintainability
*hash access 04:50
huhlig I am trying to bundle my data together so it can be passed as a single unit...
jjore So pass a reference.
huhlig a reference to what 04:51
jjore To whatever is convenient.
huhlig there are a couple of RedBlack Trees, a hash and a scalar
jjore So a hash with those things, named, is probably nice.
huhlig ok
but access time wont be that bad 04:52
FurnaceBoy_ yeah, it really depends on what your keys are.
huhlig I basically have hash(1)->key(4)->rbtree(300k)
FurnaceBoy_ in my case they were just integers, so a hash and array were perfectly interchangeable
huhlig (1) number of keys
ahh
these would be words or numbers 04:53
objects, players, and so on
this is instead of using "global variables" or would I be better accessing $main::variable
04:54 avar joined
huhlig ? 04:54
04:56 amnesiac joined
huhlig FurnaceBoy_, jjore? 04:56
FurnaceBoy_ that's not my area. :) 04:57
FurnaceBoy_ passes the buck
huhlig oh
jjore?
huhlig nudges jjore 05:01
jisom? 05:03
jisom ?
huhlig this is instead of using "global variables" or would I be better accessing $main::variable
using a hash passed to almost every function
hash ref rather 05:04
jisom passing a hash ref to every function sounds like object oriented code
huhlig this is mostly linear
05:05 stevan joined
jisom but if you're passing a hash ref to almost every function, it sounds a lot like object oriented code 05:05
huhlig ok
so would I be better addressing $main::var 05:06
?
jisom I don't know your design or code
huhlig I can send it?
which makes more sense? 05:07
on a performance scale
jisom you're seeming overly concerned with performance....for something the size of which you're planning, I suggest going with what's the most readable and maintainable 05:08
huhlig ok 05:09
FurnaceBoy_ agreed
make it work right first, fast second (within reason)
oh,
and throw away the first prototype ;-)) 05:10
(if you have to)
huhlig heh 05:12
Im on like the 30th prototype
jisom then you need to make a good design first
jjore sounds like you aren't clear on 1st principles. Texts like Code Complete are good for that. 05:13
jjore went off to prepare stuff in the kitchen. 05:14
05:15 Cryptic_K joined 05:17 Khisanth joined
huhlig Code Complete? Onlne book? 05:22
more like I keep stalling an getting bored
or frustrated
its been the same prototype persay 05:23
just rewritten
FurnaceBoy_ try simplifying it
get something small to work
huhlig I am 05:24
I am working on gettin subsystems to work now
FurnaceBoy_ okay, well keep going :-)
huhlig and I am building modularity
FurnaceBoy_ we'll be your cheerleaders
huhlig hugLIG rah RAH RAH
huhlig *snicker* 05:25
FurnaceBoy_ :)
huhlig so it would be best just to address the vars... do I just address as $main::var = blah 05:26
huhlig wants to make sure the syntax is right 05:27
Steve_p Grrr...where's klortho when you need him! 05:28
05:28 drbean_ joined
jisom $main::foo, $::foo, $Package::foo, etc... 05:29
Steve_p advice from klortho #11917 applies
huhlig ok 05:30
05:30 szabgab left
huhlig whats that 05:30
Steve_p groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.p...d6d9c5cef2 05:31
huhlig ahh
ok
FurnaceBoy_ WOW! 05:35
That is ... BEAUTIFUL.
omg.
Keywords: afro, chiefdom, rosary, winy 05:36
so Mark Jason Dominus == klortho ?
jisom "You can't just make shit up and expect the computer to know what you mean, Retardo!" but sometimes it works!!! 05:37
FurnaceBoy_ :-))
er....
you can't get a computer to do something you don't know how to do yourself.
except, maybe , by accident.
05:38 justatheory joined
jisom knowledgable guess 05:38
FurnaceBoy_ that works.
I suppose one can even learn that way. In some fields it's called experimental technique?
jisom yeah, like when they detonated the first atom bomb, they made a knowledgeable guess that it wouldn't burn up the atmosphere of the earth, which was a valid possibility they believed had a chance of occuring 05:39
Steve_p ...but you can't expect it to work
jisom "Looking for a compiler bug is the strategy of LAST resort.  LAST resort." unless you work on an alpha compiler 05:40
I don't agree with #11915, because I use print statements as my debugger... 05:41
Steve_p "If you have `some weird error', the problem is probably with your frobnitzer." is the one that I love 05:42
That and "#11948 Perhaps your veeblefitzer is clogged."
jisom "Never catch a signal except as a last resort." does that include SIGINT? 05:43
trapping ^C is useful sometimes
like cleanup
:-D
"Ah yes, and you are the first person to have noticed this bug since 1987.  Sure." - actually, I think openbsd discovered a bug in X that had been in there for like 8 years 05:45
FurnaceBoy_ actually I've never had any issues with gcc on Alpha... ? 05:47
do you mean compaq c?
jisom huh?
FurnaceBoy_ oh Alpha.
as in before Beta.
jisom as in before release canidate
FurnaceBoy_ I thought you meant Alpha as in 64-bit microprocessor.
jisom no, I mean things like pugs and parrot 05:48
FurnaceBoy_ hahahahah
:-))
jisom where compiler bugs are expected
well not so much in parrot.....
FurnaceBoy_ <FurnaceBoy_>so Mark Jason Dominus == klortho ? 05:49
jisom #11950 05:50
05:52 Alias_ joined
Alias_ audreyt: ping? 06:37
audreyt: ping me back when you get in. I'll be around for 6-8 hors
and hours, too
06:47 huhlig22 joined 06:49 GeJ joined 06:51 drrho joined 06:58 Draconit_ joined, Draconit_ left 07:12 fandango joined
huhlig22 ok I am doing something stupid 07:13
while ( my ($key, $value) = each($main::helpfiles) ) { print "$key => $value\n"; } 07:14
$main::helpfiles is a hash
jisom %::helpfiles
huhlig22 ok
ayrnieu huhlig - %::helpfiles.pairs 07:15
huhlig22 .pairs?
ayrnieu oh, is this perl5?
jisom he's using perl5
huhlig22 ok
umm... 07:16
while ( my ($key, $value) = each(%::helpfiles.pairs) ) { print "$key => $value\n"; }
Type of arg 1 to each must be hash (not concatenation (.) or string) at database.pm line 43, near "pairs) "
jisom no .pairs
huhlig22 ...
ayrnieu .pairs is perl6
jisom not in perl5
huhlig22 ahh
$main::helpfiles is a hashref 07:17
jisom %$::helpfiles
huhlig22 I need to dereference it first dont I
ok
yipiee!
help files work
ayrnieu ?eval my %h = <1 2 3 4>; say "$_[0] => $_[1]" for %h.pairs # in perl6, anyway :-)
07:17 evalbot_9278 is now known as evalbot_9314
evalbot_9314 OUTPUT[1 => 2 3 => 4 ] undef 07:17
huhlig22 that seems... yucky 07:18
ayrnieu what does?
huhlig22 the perl6 format
much less clean
ayrnieu what about it seems yucky?
huhlig22 ?eval my %h = <1 2 3 4>; 07:19
evalbot_9314 {("1" => "2"), ("3" => "4")}
huhlig22 ahh ok
ayrnieu that is analogous to this perl5, huhlig: my %h = qw/1 2 3 4/
huhlig22 seems obfuscated
ayrnieu it's not, really.
07:19 avar joined
ayrnieu and this is just an example, with fake data... 07:20
jisom RPN is hard to read if you don't know RPN
huhlig22 rpn?
ayrnieu reverse-polish notation.
huhlig22 reverse perl notation
ahh
ayrnieu 1 2 3 5 * + +
huhlig22 rpn I have always found to be redundant
and now unneccessary
ayrnieu funny, I always kept my HP49G in RPN mode. 07:21
jisom no....efficient, no worries of precedent....etc.....and similar to assembly programming in some regards
shric and it's easier to write a parser for rpn
huhlig22 true 07:22
jisom infix is older, and "easier", but rpn's more precise
ayrnieu more efficient in usertime ways, too, as on the HP48G (and on), but nevermind.
jisom and remember, bc was first implemented on top of dc 07:23
07:23 nothingmuch joined
ayrnieu RPN was never a simple efficiency hack: FORTRAN predated Forth, after all. 07:24
nothingmuch hola 07:26
nothingmuch didn't know fortran was rpn
gaal morning!
jisom well there's a big difference between fortran, forth, and lisp........
ayrnieu nothingmuch - it wasn't.
jisom forth is rpn
nothingmuch but in forth rpn was chosen because it eliminates all need for look ahead
huhlig22 I thought RPN was like this 07:27
4 5 + 5 - 10 +
ayrnieu I'm sure that there were many factors that went into and came out of Forth's syntax, as with any language design effort.
huhlig - sure.
nothingmuch yes, that's rpn
jisom 4 5 + 5 - 10 + is the more human kind, 4 5 10 + - + is the same thing really
well 07:28
huhlig22 ahh
jisom uhhh
something
ayrnieu jisom - Stack underflow
nothingmuch ayrnieu: there is a direct quote from mr. Moore saying that the reason was simplicity
jisom: not the same thing at all
10 5 4 5 + swap - +
ayrnieu except for the underflow, the only difference is that jisom's example uses more of the stack. 07:29
nothingmuch that works, but not the other way around
Alias_ rpn?
jisom my mind's not working great at the moment for rpn
ayrnieu oh, jisom has *two* errors!
nothingmuch nuh uh, - is not, errr
what's the word
ayrnieu (shame)
nothingmuch not like + and *
it's not the same on either side
ayrnieu !communicative
nothingmuch yes
shric commutative 07:30
ayrnieu That's something about Forth, though -- it is a language very quick to punish its users.
If someone wants to write a huge, poorly factored function with lots of bizarre stack frobnication... well, it's their grave. 07:31
jisom many languages are
ayrnieu !forth languages will mainly let you write ugly code.
forth will break your brain, first.
nothingmuch that's why abstraction and code reuse are so important in forth
jisom if I remember the quote..."you can write bad fortran in any language"
nothingmuch no word is supposed to be more than 2-3 ops 07:32
huhlig22 hmm
jisom you mean ansi forth? cause you can always write your own
nothingmuch jisom: "$x programmers will write $x in any language" for qw/forth fortran assempley/;
jisom pir? :-D
nothingmuch we don't have any yet ;-) 07:33
jisom is a pir programmer
Alias_ Well, you can LITERALLY write it :)
GeJ morning folks 07:34
nothingmuch hola 07:36
07:43 Aankhen`` joined
jisom en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL/C a fun language to debug.....if it existed anymore 07:43
Alias_ I shudder to think how you debug Haskell 07:44
nothingmuch Alias_: you don't ;-)
Alias_ Then what, you just test it very very carefully? :)
And implement proof-carrying
or something
nothingmuch i'm not serious 07:45
Alias_ Well, specifically, I wonder how you do non-trivial debugging
nothingmuch but the type system and the non-mutable semantics make most of the code easier to debug
Alias_ And it wouldn't surprise me to know that haskell is extremely hard to debug at an advanced level
ayrnieu alias - you don't! :D Feature! :D
nothingmuch in the sense that if you trace occasionally you can get a pretty good idea of what's going on
Alias_ fair nuff
nothingmuch but reading is much more useful than "debugging" in that sense 07:46
ayrnieu aside, q-lang.sf.net -- a language very similar in appeareance to Haskell, although dynamic and actually based on term-rewriting, has an excellent debugger.
Alias_ I'm a big fan of the Perl debugger as a faster alternative to both unit testing and print statements
jisom eh, you have to learn to use a debugger, print statements are easier 07:47
ayrnieu after hearing the perlcast about the Perl debugger, I've come to use it more frequently. Its handling of forked programs is pretty cool.
Alias_ jisom: You only have to learn to use the debugger once
ayrnieu it takes nothing to learn how to use the debugger, really.
nothingmuch doesn't like the perl debugger.... it's been too flakey when I really really needed it
jisom per language
nothingmuch and ever since I'm prejudice, i guess
Alias_ jisom: That value being 1 in the case of "the Perl debugger"
nothingmuch err, that's not the right word
Alias_ nothingmuch: Accepting the perl debugger is a little hacky at times is hard 07:48
nothingmuch: I find it annoying at times too
huhlig22 gah!!!
Alias_ nothingmuch: But then I wouldn't know how to write a better alternative, so I shut up :)
huhlig22 thinks the C guys can be a$$holes
nothingmuch is generally happy with:a
a. being careful 07:49
b. warn Dumper( $wtf );
ayrnieu huhlig - the ##c backlog seems a bit crazy.
huhlig22 heh
07:49 iblechbot joined
huhlig22 ok, mabey you guys can answer the same question 07:49
is a data storage methodology question
Alias_ nothingmuch: Have you tried using Devel::Dumpvar instead of Dumper?
huhlig22 its a
nothingmuch nope, i'll give it a look
huhlig22 ok 07:50
Alias_ It's a reimplementation of the debuggers data structure printer
has some bugs still, let me know if you find any, or have any patches to contribute
07:50 justatheory joined
huhlig22 object = struct/hash containing details of a item in virtual space 07:50
room = struct/hash containing details of defined space in virtual space
how would it be best to store information
keep the location of an object on the object itself... 07:51
lending to 100% unique instance of every object
ayrnieu the #perl6 backlog is now also a bit crazy.
huhlig22 or keep the objects locations in the room so that not every object is instanced and therefor save resources and not end up with infinite items
ayrnieu is that a subtle way of saying shut up? 07:52
ayrnieu huhlig - no.
nothingmuch huhlig22: normalize your DB
use indirection
huhlig22 nothingmuch: be more specific
how so
ayrnieu huhlig - it's a overt way of saying "???" :-)
nothingmuch keep an index of objects in the rooms
huhlig22 ok
nothingmuch but don't "contain" the objects in the rooms
ayrnieu huhlig - ah, designing a MUD?
nothingmuch en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_normalization
huhlig22 ayrnieu, basically a rewrite of rom in perl 07:53
with alot more code unity and clarity
and more features
nothingmuch huhlig22: ovid had a bit of fun implementing this stuff
search.cpan.org/~ovid/
ayrnieu huhlig - why index your objects at all? Why not just have your universe be a tree starting with a 'universe room' with all of the rooms as its children, and then objects in those rooms as their children?
nothingmuch hmm
maybe not 07:54
Alias_ because that limits you to n-1 relationships?
nothingmuch i think just in his journal
Alias_ (if that's ok though, sure!)
huhlig22 ayrnieu: coord system
ayrnieu you could even shove designed objects in the universe room, and clone them out to the universe -- so that special effects and enchantments and whatnot can just be added to the clones.
huhlig22 this mud not only has vnum based rooms for description
it uses 3 coord systems to emulate space
nothingmuch huhlig22: ayrnieu's approach also works... the idea is the same though
basically, make sure your organization makes it so that duplication is not a natural thing 07:55
because it's simpler to model uniqueness than duplication in that model
ayrnieu why do you want coordinate systems? Space is already defined by 'exits'...
huhlig22 ayrnieu Im talking coordinates for somewhere in excess of 100k^2^2 coordinates 07:56
err wait
no 100k^3^3
so 100k^9 coordinates
nothingmuch 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
jisom so 100k^9?
huhlig22 yea
nothingmuch ?
ayrnieu lots of space and not a lot of designers to make it interesting, but OK. Making an outer-space mud ? :-)
nothingmuch i hope this is sparse ;-) 07:57
huhlig22 ayrnieu SciFantasy
think spelljammer/eberron/Dragonstar
ayrnieu ?eval 100**9
evalbot_9314 1000000000000000000/1
huhlig22 planets are still vnumed
jisom ?eval (100 * 1024) ** 9
evalbot_9314 1237940039285380274899124224000000000000000000/1 07:58
huhlig22 but space itself contains planet objects, systems, and ships
nothingmuch huhlig22: use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/27481
jisom that's a lot of bytes
huhlig22 well its stored as 6 -100,000 - 100,000 numbers
ayrnieu ?eval 10 ~ 0x10
evalbot_9314 "1016"
huhlig22 sector x y z::x y z
ayrnieu ?eval 10 ~ (0x10) # ??
evalbot_9314 "1016"
ayrnieu oh, hah. Whitespace significant. 07:59
nothingmuch huhlig22: did Poppa_Vic tell you that you're a stupid beatnik and that he won't answer your question because he had to learn it on his own?
ayrnieu PoppaVic doesn't speak that way, nothingmuch.
nothingmuch is only venting some of his own steam ;-) 08:00
huhlig22 nothingmuch: in ##c
jisom ?eval 10.ashex
jisom wonders
evalbot_9314 Error: No such method in class Int: "&ashex"
jisom ok
huhlig22 ?
nothingmuch ?eval :16 10
evalbot_9314 Error: unexpected "1" expecting term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
nothingmuch aaah 08:01
i'm guessing S29 is not fully implemented ;-)
huhlig22 so I can store objects in a room enviroment 08:02
how do I store the objects that exist in space?
08:02 jisom_ joined
nothingmuch ayrnieu: for the record, every time i had a question to ask instead of shutting up PoppaVic would schold me 08:03
and I think the problem is not with me, because i never got crap from anyone else in the world for my questions
ayrnieu that's OK, I just mean that he doesn't speak that way. Or hasn't when I've noticed. 08:04
as for him conveying a similar point... 08:05
nothingmuch one sec, gotta send a fax
huhlig22 ok guys and gals 08:08
tell me if Im insane
two reference lists...
one for rooms
vrooms
one for objects 08:09
a 3rd list for locations of all objects
in the rooms
make it two lists, one for repop, one for perm(no repop)
would this be plausable?
nothingmuch so 08:11
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nothingmuch huhlig22: you're optimizing for a search that says "given room X, these are the objects therein?" 08:11
huhlig22 yes
using a Redblack tree
nothingmuch this is not all in memory, right? 08:12
huhlig22 or something better if you know of it
yes all in memory
nothingmuch aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
huhlig22 memory hefty program I know
nothingmuch just FYI, postgres has spatial indices
08:12 ghenry joined
huhlig22 interface is too slow 08:12
nothingmuch you could prefetch one level of indirection, and cache in memory
huhlig22 I tried that in both postgres and mysql for another project
nothingmuch ah
that's very odd 08:13
huhlig22 had to make a 300x52 spreadsheet
each cell was an individual search
takes it about an hour
and its searching on like 2 pieces of info 08:14
a number and a date
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huhlig22 the rest of the perl just prints html so I know its not that 08:14
08:14 huhlig22 is now known as huhlig
nothingmuch well 08:17
that was a throughput thing
this is a latency thing
with larger chunks of prefetching you could have probably optimized the spreadsheet
and with pre-resolving of adjacent rooms you can probably optimize the MUD thing 08:18
but nevermind
huhlig hmm
nothingmuch make sure that you have a constant way to get form the room to an object
huhlig nothingmuch: only other drawback... tell me if im wrong
nothingmuch if you are going to use a coordinate system then you'll need to be able to index that
huhlig it requires extra software I may not be able to install on a shell system
nothingmuch e.g. with 3 trees
yes, that's a problem
huhlig 3 trees? 08:19
how would I set that up
nothingmuch well, it's just 3 trees
huhlig x->y->z?
nothingmuch pointing to shared leaves
oh, no
orthogonally
x tree, y tree, z tree
huhlig 's eyes are crossing
nothingmuch you search all three
and intersect
huhlig ok
nothingmuch it's difficult stuff
huhlig oh
nothingmuch annoying to pull off
huhlig this part is easier in C 08:20
nothingmuch but it's the only way to not force you to scan everything
Set::Object might help here
huhlig ok
nothingmuch you could also use sparse arrays to actually use your coordinate system as indexes
look into judy arrays
on sourceforge, i think 08:21
huhlig 100k^9 in size though?
nothingmuch then you can store a sparse matrix
well, no
you pay very little overhead for the empty slots
judy.sourceforge.net/ 08:22
huhlig is there a perl version 08:23
or am writing my own
nothingmuch not likely ;-)
if i were you i'd make an XS interface or something
Array::Judy
there are other interfaces to arrays with a C backend
you can learn from them
huhlig ?eval sqrt(100000^9) 08:24
evalbot_9314 3.0
huhlig eh?
3^2 = 100000^9?
jisom_ ?eval e**(pi * i) + 1
evalbot_9314 Error: No such method in class Num: "&e"
jisom_ ?eval exp(1)**(pi * i) + 1 08:25
evalbot_9314 Error: No such sub: "&i"
huhlig didi I do something wrong?
nothingmuch, for the 3 trees, do you know a document I could look at that would give me a good idea 08:26
jisom_ you meant ** instead of ^
?eval sqrt(100000 ** 9)
evalbot_9314 3.1622776601683792e22
huhlig ahh 08:27
so its 2^3.1622e22
jisom_ ^ is exclusive bitwise or
huhlig even if its 1 bit per cell 08:28
I still ate up all my memory
a few times over
nothingmuch sorry, back
err, no
huhlig ?eval sqrt(100000 ** 9)/8
nothingmuch i don't know of a document
evalbot_9314 3.952847075210474e21
huhlig heh
nothingmuch basically there are two approaches you can take though
index on orthogonal dimensions and then intersect 08:29
and always start the search from the smallest dimension for efficiency
if the result set is small enough iterate it and filter instead
huhlig 3,952,800,000,000 GB memory
I dont have that much
nothingmuch why do you need that much memory?
oh
they are not 1 bit per cell
huhlig Array::Judy 08:30
nothingmuch they are sparse
as in
with holes
huhlig hmm 08:32
ok, so I need to feed something x,y,z,a,b,c and it will feed me everything around it 08:35
actually 08:36
its not 10^9
its only 10^3
the mud can track everything in a sector
nothingmuch what's abc? 08:37
how far?
like, the cube of the room?
i'd just like to note that this is exactly what spatial indexing is already doing and that we're reinventing right now
and that mysql/postgresql are not the only ways to do it =)
but...
yes
what it does is try to determine which dimensions is the best to try and search engine
s/engine/in/;
freudian slip ;-)
and then either intersects all the possible values from this slice
err, filters, not intersects
or intersects with the results of the next best dimensions
huhlig I killed nothingmuch 08:38
hmmm 08:44
how to do this
I wonder 08:49
could I just do this
08:49 elmex joined
huhlig hash->{x}->{y}->{z} 08:50
ayrnieu $hash{"$x:$y:$z"} 08:57
Alias_ hmm.... I wonder if spatial indexing is in geopostgres 08:58
huhlig $spawn->{'HR'}->{$x}->{$y}->{$z} = $reference
<huhlig> $spawn->{'rnum'}->{$rnum} = $reference
will this work
effectively? 08:59
08:59 Alias_ left
huhlig which is faster ayrnieu?> 08:59
$hash{"$loc:$x:$y:$z"}
or what I was proposing
ayrnieu um, why do you have $loc in there? 09:02
huhlig to differentiate the multiple types 09:03
ayrnieu types of what?
huhlig HS, RS, and NS are x y z
ayrnieu what types do you have?
huhlig VR is $snum
err vnum
ayrnieu what do those mean?
huhlig well game terms, Hyperspace, Realspace an Netspace
VR is Virtual room
the three space methods are done by x y z coords 09:04
vnum rooms are connected via mapping
buu You still want a database! 09:05
ayrnieu Guessing at the kind of access you'll want, seperate spaces for each *space may be best.
so, $space{hyper}{"$x:$y:$z"}
huhlig why
buu already tried that on another app 09:06
too damned slow
ayrnieu 'guessing at the kind of access you want'.
buu huhlig: I seriously doubt that.
huhlig well it takes an hour to fetch a 300x52 spreadsheet
ayrnieu You do much talking about how you'd like to structure your data, but little about how you intend to access it.
buu No it doesn't.
eval: 300 * 52
p5evalbot buu: Return: 15600
huhlig ayrnieu: it is accessed at two points
ayrnieu why would you want to 'fetch a 300x52 spreadsheet', anyway?
buu I can select 11k rows from mysql in under a second 09:07
ayrnieu huhlig - I don't think what you say is accurate.
buu 4000 more won't take that long.
huhlig pastebin.com/588512 09:08
ayrnieu If you think that you will often grep all of hyperspace to deliver a message to a randomly placed object, this affects how you should organize your data. If you think that you'll mostly just be moving from point A to point B in hypersace, this affects how you'll organize your data. If everything will have a seperate, primary reality and the 'space' is just to manage area effects, this also makes a difference.
huhlig no 09:10
it will be directed
only objects that exist on the coord plane will need to be used
at one of 3 times
object update
object respawn 09:11
and a user command
09:15 typonaise joined 09:20 typonaise joined 09:24 typonaise joined 09:27 typonaise joined 09:32 nothingmuch joined
rgs who's the contact for the pluggable regexp engine for P5 somebody was hacking on ? 09:45
rgs pings audreyt who might know. 09:46
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Limbic_Region audreyt ping 13:01
Juerd Heh, hurrah for identd 13:03
www-data@feather :)
Limbic_Region: https had been broken for quite a while. Should this happen again and you notice it, then could you send me a short message by mail about it? 13:04
I still don't have a good monitoring system set up, so I depend on users for reports :) 13:05
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Limbic_Region Juerd - sure - provided I don't have more important things on my mind (like my new daughter) 13:06
szbalint nice ident :P
Juerd Limbic_Region: Great, thanks in advance :) 13:07
Limbic_Region: Though if you notice that anything's wrong, that means you're using feather mail or irc, which I think would be an indication of not having more important things on your mind at that moment ;)
Limbic_Region Juerd - actually I have an automated script that logs on to my 2 primary email accounts, the monastery, and IRC when I log in in the morning 13:08
when the feather one stopped working, I assumed something had changed and that at was b0rk 13:09
When I got around to figuring out what it was I realized I couldn't connect manually either so that's when I said something 13:10
13:12 fglock joined
fglock Parser metacircularity today! 13:14
unless bugs|meetings
lypanov ummmmmetacurcularity....ummm 13:15
nothingmuch fglock: which level of metacircularity? 13:16
fglock nothingmuch: all grammar written in p6 13:19
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nothingmuch fglock: parse rule syntax with rule syntax? 13:25
fglock nothingmuch: yes, the grammar includes the whole rule syntax
nothingmuch yay 13:26
what does the rule AST look like?
fglock for some value of "the whole" - only the parts that I've implemented :)
nothingmuch does it parse + etc as higher order rules accepting subrules as parameters? 13:27
fglock nothingmuch: can you give an example?
Juerd Limbic_Region: I see. The saying something didn't reach me, unfortunately 13:28
nothingmuch (foo)+
Juerd Limbic_Region: Thanks for trying
nothingmuch this is matching the + rule
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nothingmuch with the foo rule as a parameter 13:28
13:28 nivrrex left
fglock nothingmuch: yes - <foo>+ for subrules, (foo)+ for constant 13:29
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nothingmuch ofcourse 13:29
13:29 gaal joined
nothingmuch the constant is a subrule 13:29
i'll take a look later, i'm very interested 13:30
fglock nothingmuch: a link - svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/misc/pX/Co...prelude.p6
nothingmuch fglock: okay
fglock nothingmuch: this is the grammar - right now I'm working on joining this with the rule syntax
nothingmuch yummy
fglock++ # works with my grand master plan 13:31
please document this in accordance Hierarchy.pod
fglock nothingmuch: Hierarchy.pod?
nothingmuch fglock: please have a quick look =) 13:32
it's a doc tree brain dump
sorts out p5 doc in the new tree
fglock nothingmuch: ok
nothingmuch and also details missing docs for p6 internals
... like the rules domain specific language ;-)
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gaal bsb: hi 13:35
fglock pmurias: please run tests before commits :) 13:37
nothingmuch hola bsb
svnbot6 r9315 | fglock++ | iterator_engine.p6 - added tests; 1 failure (Pugs bug? - it looks like variables in a closure are a copy?)
fglock re r915: 'pugs iterator_engine.p6t' 13:40
svnbot6 r9316 | fglock++ | iterator_engine/p5hacks.pl - added '1;'
bsb hi gaal, nothingmuch 13:47
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svnbot6 r9317 | fglock++ | iterator_engine/p6primitives.p6 - 'if', '+', '*' 13:48
rafl Hello 13:52
Juerd: What did my real flatmate say, btw? 13:53
Limbic_Region hey bsb, I tried to /msg you yesterday but you weren't logged on - what, you think you are entitled to a life or something?
in any case, I was tracking down why zlib was still b0rk on Win32 and gaal pointed me to you 13:54
I found the problem and audreyt thinks she might have fixed it (I am in the process of verifying ATM) 13:55
and in case the humor was missed - I was only joking about the life part ;-)
bsb hmm, thanks gaal...
It's ok, I was being rejuvenated at the Dead Sea 13:56
gaal irc over voice technology
bsb What was the problem?
Limbic_Region testing to see if ghc can link with zlib is not the same as verifying that the zlib header file is about 13:57
bsb Ah, I didn't write those probes but know roughly what's going on 13:58
Don't have win32 myself though
Limbic_Region well - the really strange thing is that my Win32 at home had been working just fine but my Win32 at home was b0rk 13:59
so I backed into it - gaal told me that USE_ZLIB was getting set when it shouldn't be - so I checked to see why it was getting set
I found the Makefile.PL probe that compiled a small haskell program with zlib linked 14:00
verified that it worked by hand and went huh?
svnbot6 r9318 | fglock++ | iterator_engine/p6prelude-cached.pl - precompiled prelude file 14:01
Limbic_Region Next looked at the pugs compile error - fastpackedstring was complaining about missing zlib.h - checked ghc_root\gcc-lib\include and sure enough it wasn't there
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svnbot6 r9319 | fglock++ | iterator_engine/p6compiler-non_circular.pl - keep the old compiler 14:02
r9319 | fglock++ | around, for historical reasons
Limbic_Region looked in ghc_root\gcc-lib and saw that there was a library though (which is why linking was possible) - just no header files
bsb weird
Limbic_Region unfortunately though - I incorrectly guessed that I could use the Cygwin header files (zlib.h and zconf.h) - it compiles everything just fine but when pugs tries to run it looks for a cygwin dll 14:03
so I suggested 1 of 2 things to audreyt - either do a better job of confirming header files are present or see if the necessary functions can be extracted directly from the library
she opted to go with solution 3 - include zlib.h and zconf.h (but hopefully she didn't use the cygwin ones based on the fact I told her they would work) 14:04
because they won't
bsb She's always going with solution 3. Maybe we should renumber our suggestions 14:05
Limbic_Region heh
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Limbic_Region in any case, I am trying to verify her solution now but this box only has 256 MB of ram and ends up swapping like mad when I have to compile certain parts of Pugs 14:05
so who knows when it will finish 14:06
robkinyon LR: When you get a chance, are you going to write up how to compile Pugs on Cygwin? 14:07
Limbic_Region robkinyon - um, no as I don't know how to do that 14:08
I just happen to have Cygwin and Pugs and GHC on the same box - sorry if I gave the impression I was doing this under Cygwin
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svnbot6 r9320 | fglock++ | iterator_engine/p6compiler.pl - Metacircular Grammar !!! 14:20
fglock metacircular Rules coming soon...
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Limbic_Region fglock - is this a result of your conversation with TimToady yesterday or the direction you were going anyway? 14:25
fglock it's the result of a well-slept night :)
FurnaceBoy lucky you! 14:26
fglock Yesterday I was planning a quick hack - this one is the real thing
FurnaceBoy I couldn't sleep, so I wrote a 14-line B-tree
(C)
jjore What is misc/pX?
fglock FurnaceBoy :)
FurnaceBoy wishes he were joking
worked first time though.
integral 14 lines? neat
Limbic_Region jjore - you mean what is the project in that directory or why is it called misc/pX ? 14:27
jjore What is the stuff in that directory?
Limbic_Region jjore - that's fglock's p6 compiler in p5 project 14:28
fglock jjore: pX is an experiment with a new form of collaboration - my subproject just happens to be inside it
Limbic_Region FurnaceBoy - you are familiary with the lwall quote that goes something along the lines "you want that in 1 line - does it have to be 80 columns)
FurnaceBoy LOL
jjore Can I have a commit bit so I can write this stuff down in misc/pX/README, etc? 14:29
FurnaceBoy these are nicely formatted lines.
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Limbic_Region sure - which email address do you want me to send it to? 14:29
jjore twists@gmail
Limbic_Region k - might take me a few minutes, I always have to re-remember how to hand em out 14:30
fglock Limbic_Region: if you touch p6prelude.p6, it will be recompiled... using the previous version!
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fglock Limbic_Region: same thing with p6primitives.p6 14:31
jjore 's primary way of being helpful is just being clueless in public and adding any info gleaned to READMEs.
fglock jjore: nice!
nothingmuch Limbic_Region: i can add it quick if you still haven't found it
jjore Cuz this stuff isn't documented near well enough where a clueful person can make sense of it.
I think I have to have been involved in pugs for the last year to actually be able to know what anything does. 14:32
fglock jjore: the iterator_engine subdir has another more specific README
jjore Cuz the checkout is really opaque.
Limbic_Region nothingmuch - no, let me - this will help me ingrain it
nothingmuch oops, too late 14:33
put this in your bookmarks though: rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/Project/...?Queue=270
jjore fglock, oh I found that much deeper README but it didn't have a "What is this?" description in it.
nothingmuch it's a direect link to the members admin page
jjore Wait... which README did I find?
The one I first found didn't have one, now I've one that does. 14:34
Ah!
Limbic_Region jjore - the commit bit is on its way
jjore misc/pX/Common/README vs misc/pX/Common/iterator_engine_README
I don't even know how I accidentally opened the second because I would have looked for anything matching ^RE... 14:35
nothingmuch & home
jjore is a dork.
Limbic_Region jjore - I also /msg'd you at the Monastery a link to audreyt's blog whose most recent entry links to several presentations that may be of interest
fglock jjore: it's misc/pX/Common/iterator_engine/README - if you have iterator_engine_README then it's an old file - let me check
jjore: if you have old files around, it may be better to delete everithing and do a new checkout 14:37
jjore My checkout is frum... yesterday? Sunday? 14:38
Limbic_Region jjore - "old"
err
"old" is an extremely relative term around here
fglock jjore: we do ~20 commits a day 14:39
jjore gasps and falls over.
Limbic_Region jjore - out of curiosity, what box do you have Pugs running on ATM? I know you have had problems getting it working on your platform of choice 14:40
fglock adds rules rules to the grammar - very carefully 14:41
jjore Just a plain-old Linux box, LR.
My NetBSD-Sparc was because p5 runs on it and it's SMP. 14:42
I don't like the machine much. It's very noisy.
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Limbic_Region jjore - if you want, you could always get an acct on Feather 14:42
jjore Feather? 14:43
Limbic_Region yep 14:44
let me get you a link to explain all about it
in a nutshell, a server hosted by Juerd's compafor the sole purpose of p6 development 14:45
it is what is enabling me to chat here today fwiw (since I ess IRC from work) 14:46
lypanov fglock: hehe. i do 20 commits on a good day alone on my local repos ;)
jjore ah, 1 see. 14:47
Limbic_Region groups.google.com/group/perl.perl6....4d5049487b 14:49
sorry it took a while to get the link, my machine is S-L-O-W ATM
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TimToady LR: compiling pugs are we? :-) 14:49
Limbic_Region yes TimToady - I would recommend splitting some of the more memory intensive pieces up so as to work on machines with 256MB of memory without swapping 14:50
but that would be equivalent to volunteering
TimToady heaven forfend.
Limbic_Region and since you likely don't know - I have a 4 week old at home (our first) 14:51
fglock TimToady: iterator_engine's syntax is now compiled by itself - no dirty hacks!
TimToady LR: er, congrats! Have the appropriate amount of fun...
lypanov hehe
Limbic_Region: congratz again :D
Limbic_Region thanks 14:52
TimToady fglock: also congrats. Saw your rules rules in the BL.
fglock TimToady: there still is a p6compiler.pl - but it just loads the the file it precompiled 14:53
TimToady fglock: do you see any potential relationships between what you're doing and what PGE is doing? It's just Patrick is also working on bootstrapping p6compiler from the PGE end, and you could probably collaborate usefully.
Limbic_Region TimToady - what's the skinny on p5 -> p5 if you have a second or two?
more specifically, how close is it to becoming ready for collaboration? 14:54
TimToady Er, in .il it took about 4800 seconds to explain...
Ah.
It's currently being merged into mainline 5.9 by Nick. 14:55
fglock TimToady: I'm writing the rules in Perl 6 - so PGE is not necessary...
Limbic_Region k - thanks TimToady
TimToady Yes, but it would be nice if you and Patrick ended up with the same set of rules. :-)
Limbic_Region not only the same set of rules as an end result - working together you might both get there faster 14:56
fglock TimToady: yes - I hope the test suite will assure it will be the same (otoh, working with Patrick would be nice, of course) 14:57
TimToady How are you going to handle new operators of new precedence, frinstance. Patrick has put a lot of work into that. 14:58
Limbic_Region: if you want to play with p5->p5 before the merge is published, that can also be arranged. Audrey has a copy of it, for instance. 14:59
fglock TimToady: the plan (today) is to bootstrap the compiler, which is mostly done. When it works, it could emit Parrot, which would use PGE. The Parrot version would be a working compiler with a PGE backend. The Perl5 version is "pure Perl" 15:00
TimToady: the plan is a work in progress 15:01
TimToady fglock: that's fine. As if P6 design isn't also a WIP. :-)
fglock WIP?
TimToady Work In Progress.
fglock :) 15:02
TimToady s/isn't/is/
Anyway, I understand. Keep up the good work!
Limbic_Region TimToady - I am mostly interested in seeing how easy it would be to hook in to detect bad coding style - for instance my $foo = 'bar' if $blah;
fglock anyway - right now, there is a working compiler, which you can extend using whatever Perl 6 it already knows to handle
TimToady Oh, you mean Perl::Critic with real semantic information instead of just a document? 15:03
Limbic_Region yes
TimToady Sure, don't see why not.
Limbic_Region and thanks for remembering the module name - I couldn't
lypanov umm
any info on p5 -> p5 online?
TimToady Can also be incestuous with p5-to-p6 to instruct on which things
will be difficult to translate.
Limbic_Region lypanov - I think audreyt's last blog entry linked to TimToady's presentation 15:04
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Limbic_Region TimToady - yeah, I thought of that too but as I understand it - too early 15:04
TimToady Just the Takahashi slides, which are singularly uninformative about the important bits...
Limbic_Region has to break the bad news to audreyt that her fix didn't work and that it is likey his fault 15:05
lypanov TimToady: any posts to ml's i should have read to get context?
lypanov is interested
jjore Perl::Critic recently got C<my ... if/unless/while/until/for ...> detection, Limbic_Region. fwiw.
p5 of course. 15:06
Limbic_Region jjore - yes, I believe as a result of feedback at the Monastery
jjore No, I filed a bug on it.
TimToady The blog doesn't link to my slides, see wall.org/~larry/p55.xul for that.
Limbic_Region even better jjore
jjore I'm on the P'C list.
15:07 hb__ joined
TimToady also, the snapshot audrey mentions needs to be updated with wall.org/~larry/nomad or it loses too much information. 15:07
jjore See... being interested in lint makes a person pay attention to perlcritic too.
lypanov umm... my ffx sure dislikes that .xul 15:08
TimToady But admittedly p5-to-p5 is still very raw and underdocumented, and doubtless the whole toolchain needs a few more refactorings. The testing has been very ad hoc.
Just read it as a text file for now. 15:09
lypanov TimToady: really just looking for single sentence overview :)
Limbic_Region jjore - see also perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=526474
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fglock I wonder if Patrick reused the my bootstrapping algorithm, he could have a working compiler quickly 15:10
svnbot6 r9321 | fglock++ | iterator_engine/p6rule.pl - '<@var>' and '$var := (<rule)' moved to 15:11
r9321 | fglock++ | prelude.p6
TimToady fglock: could well be.
lypanov umm 15:12
fglock: bootstrapping algm?
jjore Oh. Limbic_Region, probably what reminded me.
fglock lypanov: implement a dynamic grammar, and reuse it to extend itself
lypanov fglock: *nod*
fglock: this is the method you use? 15:13
you're compiling to parrot?
lypanov perks up slightly :P
fglock lypanov: I'm compiling to Perl 5, but it can be easily ported - yesterday I started working a Pugs version 15:14
s/working/working on/
but it hit some bugs :(
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bynari A little birdie told me there were publicly available #perl6 logs. Is this true? 15:16
fglock lypanov: when the grammar hits "circularity", it no longer needs to be progressive - then you can rewrite it the normal way, which is easier
bynari - colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6
lypanov fglock: how long is it? 15:17
hoowa audreyt do u still here?
bynari Awesome, thanks, fglock
lypanov fglock: i was writing a ruby in ruby a while back
fglock lypanov: bytes? the prelude is 3382 bytes, right now 15:18
lypanov fglock: and just kind of let it to waste.. got into it again
(damn #perl6 :P)
fglock: nice nice
lypanov shall have to take a look eventually
fglock lypanov: 20526 bytes compiled 15:19
lypanov fglock: i've not really got into the grammar area, putting that off for a while, maybe your work will provide inspiration :)
fglock lypanov: you can use the exactly same program to write compilers for any language - just change the grammar and write the appropriate emitter nodes
s/program/method/ 15:20
lypanov nods 15:21
thusly my interest :)
Limbic_Region audreyt ping again
lypanov wonders what her ping stack is at now :P 15:22
Limbic_Region no idea but I need someone on Win32 to without zlib installed to verify something for me
fglock recompiling the circular prelude is scary - if you mess with it, you ruin the source code 15:25
because it is circular
fglock makes extra backups
lypanov hehe
jjore backup should be part of the build then. 15:26
fglock jjore: the build dies if there is a syntax problem, but if there is a logical problem then the compiler is ruined 15:27
jjore yay. So...backup shoud be part of the build?
lypanov could the compiler compile itself before saving state?
jjore Oh well. I'm off to work. Then caucous night. :-p. I should poke my eyes out with a spork. 15:29
fglock lypanov: no - I made a backup of the non-bootstrapped compiler, just in case
lypanov: and I'm commiting the state to svn, each time
lypanov nods 15:30
chris2 hi lypanov 15:34
15:34 jjore is now known as jjore-home 15:35 justatheory joined
lypanov yoyo chris2 15:38
chris2 digs into haskell
Supaplex chews through some maillogs 15:42
15:45 penk joined
FurnaceBoy chews through some high voltage cables 15:48
chris2 FurnaceBoy: one-by-one it's only bad for the teeth ;)
svnbot6 r9322 | gaal++ | * precompilation_cache.pod design notes. Please review. 15:49
FurnaceBoy spits chewed PVC... 15:50
Supaplex deflects
FurnaceBoy goes to find a nicer tasting breakfast
gaal nothingmuch: ping 15:51
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FurnaceBoy au contraire, chris2: I am well grounded. 16:16
chris2 =)
FurnaceBoy but croissants sure are tastier.
pawel fglock: I'll remember the run the test next time :) a script is in place.. 16:22
Limbic_Region anyone have an ssh server running on port 443 ? 16:23
pawel I would be nice to have precompiled p6primitives in the repo
i get Undefined subroutine &@grammar1::statements called at iterator_engine.pl line 184 16:25
when i run the non-circular version
FurnaceBoy lol@Limbic, why?
Limbic_Region well, cause policy states that no browser will connect to the net except via the corp porxy
same policy is followed by a dozen other things that won't connect except via the corp proxy 16:26
one of those things is a secure client
pawel fglock++ for the metagrammar
Limbic_Region well - said proxy only forwards http and ssl requests so for a secure client to work - it would have to be accepting connections on one of those ports
FurnaceBoy are you irc'ing via cgiirc or such? 16:27
16:27 foobarbazblarg joined
Limbic_Region cgiirc 16:27
FurnaceBoy k
gaal anatoly_: ping 16:31
16:32 uszr` joined
fglock pawel: the non-circular version is now obsolete. p6rules.t is not expected to suceed, either 16:32
s/suceed/succeed/ 16:33
because it doesn't use the p6 lib
16:33 justatheory joined
fglock I'll fix that later 16:33
fglock deleted the local version and restart 16:34
pawel: re primitives - my mistake - I'll commit the missing file 16:37
16:38 pawel is now known as pmurias
svnbot6 r9323 | fglock++ | p6primitives-cached.pl - compiled primitives 16:38
fglock pawel: would you check it again?
pmurias it works!! thanks 16:39
fglock pmurias: I moved the whole compiler to p6; now I'm moving the rule subsystem 16:40
pmurias explain more please...
fglock see p6compiler.pl - there is no grammar in it - it's just a loader
pmurias thats great 16:42
I think useing Perl::Tidy, would help simplify code,emiting 16:45
I'll try to add it as an optional dependency this evening
16:45 justatheory joined
pmurias code generation routines should care how the *resault* looks,and Perl::Tidy does a greatly better job 16:47
fglock pmurias: you mean, pass the compiled code through Perl::Tidy? 16:48
pmurias yes
fglock pmurias: see the $tab thing in the rule emitter - it does a good job 16:49
pmurias seen it
I wanted to remove it to unifie code & rule nodes interfaces
fglock pmurias: I'd rather add it to the code nodes 16:50
pmurias: the reason to keep dependencies low is to be able to port code to other languages (Parrot, Pugs) 16:51
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fglock what's the p5 syntax to pre-declare a sub? 16:56
pmurias I could code it as an optional switch (for higher code quality) 16:57
sub name;
fglock pmurias: as long as it don't fail if it is not installed, it's ok
s/don't/doesn't/ 16:58
pmurias i never meant for it to be mandatory
fglock pmurias: ok
pmurias like all things its a trade of if you go for speed don't format the generated code (as a matter of fact Perl::Tidy is quite slow from the initial observations) 16:59
fglock pmurias: you can get the code formatted later (with external perltidy) 17:00
pmurias i'll experiment with it before making a choice(got to do the homework now :( 17:02
fglock pmurias: ok! 17:04
svnbot6 r9324 | fglock++ | iterator_engine/p6rule.pl - less rules in p5 land 17:08
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svnbot6 r9325 | fglock++ | iterator_engine - "there is no <rule> in perl5" 17:29
17:41 justatheory joined 17:55 nothingmuch joined
FurnaceBoy 0m 18:03
18:14 ruz joined 18:18 vborja joined
szbalint Hello. 18:21
18:22 mako132_ joined
svnbot6 r9326 | fglock++ | iterator_engine - less perl5 code 18:22
Limbic_Region szbalint - I have given up on Project Euler for a while - I think I have picked all the low hanging fruit 18:25
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fglock picks the high hanging fruits and falls from tree 18:33
TimToady but is it an upward tree or a downward tree? 18:35
Limbic_Region tion) 18:36
TimToady I am not in the habit of tioning ) 18:38
Limbic_Region wow 18:40
that should have read "It is a btree (he can fall in either direction)"
Limbic_Region is compiling Pugs again (from scratch) and his machine can't keep up with him
fglock :) 18:41
Your machine can't keep up with you? 18:42
TimToady off to $job... 18:44
fglock TimToady: have a nice day
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svnbot6 r9327 | fglock++ | iterator_engine - tests cleanup (rules must now be tested in p6 land); 18:55
r9327 | fglock++ | updated README, p6sample.p6
szbalint Limbic_Region: I don't really have too much time for Euler atm :\ 18:58
and it got a bit repetitive after 60+ problems
:P
fglock bbiab 18:59
svnbot6 r9328 | fglock++ | iterator_engine - updated TASKS 19:01
19:02 justatheory joined 19:07 rindolf joined 19:08 Cryptic_K joined
rindolf Hi all! 19:09
kane_: here?
I emailed kane_. He did not reply. 19:12
integral rindolf: maybe your email comes under more pressing priorities. 19:13
rindolf integral: possibly.
It reminds me of something I heard in the perlcast about the time management. 19:14
integral "Don't use IRC"
rgs heh.
rindolf integral: no.
19:15 putter joined
rindolf integral: he just says that once you've received a ticket you need to acknowledge it so people will know you're working on it. 19:15
integral maybe he's not working on it. 19:17
rindolf integral: then you got to let them know that you're not.
integral: either way, you need to give a fast initial feedback.
Albeit he did apply my patch to CPANPLUS beforehand, so he's still alive. 19:18
putter gaal, audreyt, etal: an additional observation on pil2js/Prelude breakage. ./pugs actually works if use/require in Prelude.pm are _sub_s rather than macros. Because Parser.hs is serving as the "macro is parsed(...)". Unfortunately, this doesnt help with pil2js, because to -C properly, pugs needs to know use/require exist, and
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putter and it's ignoring the Prelude, and op1s from Prim.hs _override Prelude.pm subs_. That last is critical. Because it means use/require and macroness is not unusual. It seems everything moved from Prim to Prelude with break pil2js if it causes any parse ambiguity. which means most everything, yes? 19:20
If so, then this is a "full stop" block on migrating stuff from Prim to Prelude. Until it can be worked around in some way (second, abbriviated copy of the Prelude for -C, or what ever). sound right? 19:22
s/is not unusual/is not an unusual/isolated case/ 19:23
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gaal putter: looking, trying to understand. 19:34
putter: but I don't see what's blocking what? there aren't any prims with the same names in Prelude and Prim, are there? 19:37
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gaal what _is_ the pil2js breakage? url to log summary works if you have one 19:37
fglock putter: did you backlog? Parser metacircularity! 19:41
whatever this means 19:42
putter fglock! :)
(that's what I'm unclear on - think i get it:)
hope to looks at TASKS soonish 19:43
fglock fglock: you don't change the syntax by using p5 - it's all p6 code
? I'm talking to myself
putter gaal: use/require Prim's formerly existed. now just Pugs::Internals::use/require. One can have both. But if plain use/require are defined, a Prelude.pm use/require, sub or macro, doesnt get run. 19:44
In the absence of a use/require Prim, -C attempts to interpret use Foo; as a method "use" call on class Str, and fails. 19:45
gaal putter: that actually sounds like correct behavior 19:46
oh wait
even if Prelude defines it?
fglock putter: the TASKS list is scary
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putter gaal: a Prim trumphs a Prelude def. 19:46
gaal ok, sure; that's to be expected and doesn't look like a problem 19:47
if Prim.hs does NOT define something, but that something IS in Prelude, what's the problem?
putter I have an unjustified suspicion it's because ruleApply is rather low in parseTerm. But I haven't looked at the parser output to confirm that's what's happening.
gaal putter: compare Prim nodes in data Exp with Pad entires 19:48
putter gaal: -C ignores Prelude. p6 doesnt like undefined subs being used.
./pugs -e 'foo Bar;' *** No such method in class Any: "&foo" 19:49
Courtesy of Parser, -C -e 'use Bar;' gets as far as knowing Bar is a Str, so the failure is 19:51
./pugs -CPIL1 -e 'use Foo;' pugs: *** No such method in class Str: "&use"
gaal now I'm beginning to see
putter to recap, -e 'use Foo' doesnt -C without a "use" Prim, and if there is one, any Prelude use() sub-or-macro doesnt get called by ./pugs. 19:54
Long-term, my understanding is the right thing is for -C to include the Prelude, but be smart enough not to output it. 19:56
For an immediate fix, either a "mini-Prelude for -C", or tweaking so Prelude defs trump Prims, would fix the problem. 19:58
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gaal hmmm 19:58
svnbot6 r9329 | fglock++ | iterator_engine/TASKS update 19:59
putter A mini-Prelude has the slight advantage that one could place brand new things in the Prelude (that aren't current Prim's), and have -C work with them.
rafl Juerd: ping
Juerd rafl: pong 20:00
20:00 amnesiac joined
rafl Juerd: How about the perl6 @ froscon idea? 20:00
putter fglock: :)
Juerd rafl: I think we should ask Audrey, who knows everyone :)
rafl Juerd: So, go ahead :-) 20:01
Juerd Hm?
Why me? :)
rafl 'cause it was your idea to ask her :-) 20:02
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Juerd It was TimToady's idea to write Perl, but it couldn't have become the same thing if other people hadn't contributed. 20:02
I'll ask her, but not for this reason.
:)
rafl Juerd: And because I'm not capable of thinking very well right now. 20:03
Juerd Neither am I.
I'm listening to a PPI talk atm
gaal putter: there is a COMPILING_PRELUDE thing, I don't understand what it does though.
sorry, network problems
rafl But I'm sure I've a better reason.
Juerd Heh
rafl Juerd: Oh, Amsterdam.PM? Sounds interesting..
Juerd: Take your time. You can ask afterwards ;-)
Juerd Yes, of course, amsterdam.pm
webmind rafl, it kinda is actually 20:04
Juerd The world still turns even if you're not there :)
webmind h/win 37
oops
rafl Juerd: The world turns quite much for me right now. 20:05
Juerd rafl: use less 'drugs'? :)
rafl That's unimplemented right now. 20:06
gaal Juerd: can you /msg? 20:10
Juerd gaal: Apparently not
svnbot6 r9330 | fglock++ | iterator_engine - grammar changed to use #comments - putter++ 20:11
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putter gaal: COMPILING_PRELUDE is set by util/gen_prelude, read in Pugs.hs, setting a haskell "global variable";), which is read in Run.hs's initMumble. which does the prelude loading, or not, depending on if it is set, or not. 20:15
fglock what is the syntax to use perl5 regex inside a rule? like 'rule xxx { (?#some-regex) }' 20:18
putter For a while I wandered down a path of using a big Prelude.pm ifdef. Have pugs _always_ include Prelude, and have Prelude itself do the COMPILING_PRELUDE check and return either the full prelude, or a mini-one for -C. But when precompiling Prelude.pm... you are in a third case. you dont want to play it twice, as prelude, and as code file. several options. 20:20
But I punted at that point.
fglock: [:perl5(1)...] (and the usual, or :perl5::, or...) 20:22
[:perl5 should be fine]
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PerlJam Isn't it :P5 too (or did I imagine that?) 20:23
putter (as long as its a /x p5 regexp :)
PerlJam ?
putter yes
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fglock putter: like ' rule xxx { :perl5(.*) } ' - so :perl5 is sort of a rule node? 20:23
putter though since the set of inside and outside :foo's is distinct, perhaps :P5 is available outside rx:P5// but not inside.
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putter no, 20:24
PerlJam fglock: rule xxx { :perl5 .* }
fglock: in yours, .* would be a parameter to the :perl5 attribute.
putter :perl5 , like :i :mumble, is a modifier.
block scoped
[:i(1) This CoDe Is CaSe insensiteive ]
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fglock putter: got it - thanks 20:25
putter sensitive [:i insensitive] sensitive
ah
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putter the "lots of different ways to end the modifier" are just because, when whitespace is significant, you may want to smash your text against the modifier. without breaking the modifier. rx:w/foo/ rx:w/:i foo/ (oops, space), so rx:w/:i::foo/ or rx:w/:i(1)foo/ 20:27
gaal putter: sorry, I just don't know. need audrey :/
PerlJam rx:w/:i::foo/ still bothers me though 20:28
putter maybe you can use ":" instead of "::" too. "::" works because its a block cut, so if your starting your block with the modifiers, well, having a block cut at the beginning of the block is a noop.
gaal: :)
There are several paths which could be pursued, which look like they will at least do a workaround. I just reached my "enough hours of my life spend on this" threshold. 20:29
PerlJam: rx:w/:i()foo/ ? 20:30
oh, no. um,
no, yes, that's right. though may confuse one when counting parens. :)
fglock putter: re circularity: ' rule perl5 { \: perl5 <perl5_regex> } ' 20:31
PerlJam putter: :: works in only a limited number of cases. Somehow I think people will get the impression that it'll work anywhere.
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putter pauses, ponders, 20:31
lol :)
PerlJam: last I heard, :modifiers can only appear at the beginning of blocks. so "::" _can_ be used everywhere to terminate modifiers. ;) 20:32
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putter fglock: that's very neat. that's a T-shirt. 20:33
PerlJam oh, maybe I need to update my mental model then.
fglock :)
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FurnaceBoy wb 20:36
fglock putter: after you compile that statement, you can change it to: ' rule perl5_regex { \: perl5 [ :perl5 .*? ] } '
s/[]/()/
putter: that's the plan, actually 20:37
putter pauses to ponder again... 20:39
Kattana really needs to take some time to take a good look at what you two are up to
fglock compiles and see what happens
putter shouldnt that be
PerlJam Kattana: by that time, they'll be off to something else ;) 20:40
putter ' rule perl5 { \: perl5 [ :perl5 .*? ] } '
fglock putter: it needs to capture the regex (source code), in order to compile it 20:41
putter and ' rule perl5_regex { :perl5 .*? } '
Kattana mhmm, cant you just redefine it later on using itself? i did something like that recently.
fglock Kattana: yes - but it is later on in 'time', not in 'later in the same text' 20:42
Kattana: circular programs 'evolve'
putter it wasnt the captures which I found strange, but the change in tokens (\:perl5 moving from rule perl5 to rule perl5_regex)
fglock putter: yes - I changed the code while I was talking to you 20:43
putter: do I have to code the second form as (using a block): rule perl5_regex { \: perl5 [ :perl5 (.*?) ] } 20:44
putter: is the [] block needed? 20:45
putter: or, I could code it in pure perl5
putter you need a block, [] or (), to provide a beginning of block place to use the :perl5 modifier. oh wait, 20:53
here you could just say
oh, I'm getting that distinctive meta-circularity headache... 20:54
rule perl5_regex :perl5 {:perl5\s*\[:perl5(.*?)\]} 20:56
or
oops, that should have been 20:57
rule perl5_regex :perl5 {:perl5\s+(.*?)}
or
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avar how do I do sub new { shift; my $self = { foo => 'bar', bar => 'zar', @_ }; bless $self; } in p6? 20:57
@_ being the little magic;) 20:58
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putter "windows #%$!@$#$@#$ ^W *$#!!" 20:58
fglock avar: ask putter :) 20:59
putter ok, couple of issues. :perl5 is kind of an odd modifier, because once it's passed, you're in another language (p5 re). so /:perl5::/ would mean rx:perl5/::/ which is not quite what's desired 21:00
avar putter: !!!_?1231?_!"312u57123495
;)
putter same thing with /:perl5 foo/. that's rx:perl5/ foo/. so... I think :perl5 when used internal, needs its brackets, rather than being able to abreviate with a p6 re modifier "those cant be brackets!" parse fail. 21:02
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putter so, /:perl5(1)thisisnowp5/ hmm. not sure if the 1 is needed. i think it's the default. so /:perl5()foo/ 21:03
your choice of brackets. /:perl5<>foo/
soo, back to the question, modifiers can only begin at the start of the rule, or start of a group (capturing or non-capturing). (i should have been saying "group" rather than "block") 21:05
fglock putter: does 'rule xxx rx:perl5{foo}' works? that's good enough for me - I don't need to mix rule/regex yet
putter yes, works.
or 'rule xxx rx{:perl5<>foo}' 21:06
fglock putter: which you find better? 21:07
putter oh, well, that second one, mine, would have to be 'rule xxx rx{:perl5<>[foo]}' if you want arbitrary foo. just so you didnt get /:perl5<>iamperl5| but i am p6/
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azuroth wants honey chicken 21:07
putter azuroth just made putter very hungry.
re better, 21:08
azuroth bwaha, it's like an infectious disease.
putter ...
azuroth the honey-chicken wanting is, I mean...
FurnaceBoy Dal Makhani!
...heating
azuroth dal makhani? butter chicken? :'( 21:09
putter ... I'm torn. there is something nice about a rx:perl5/pat/ having the pat entirely in p5. but then again,
FurnaceBoy loves Indian vegetarian bachelor-meals
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putter I kind of prefer rules to have their semantic bits internal. rule x {:words ...} rather than rule x :words {...}. 21:10
so, no immediately accessible preference. ;)
fglock putter: ok - I'm implementing the first one :) 21:11
putter :)
sounds good
Supaplex as long as it doesnt exasperate any hemorids, it's ok
;o) 21:12
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putter The thing I love about XS programing, is you can have a mistake, present for a long time, with everything working. Then you make some trivial change, which has no-local effects sufficient to alter the conditions which were keeping the mistake symptomless, and suddenly boom, code which has been "working" forever suddenly isnt. weeeeeee. 21:14
FurnaceBoy c'est la guerre
fglock putter: that's not really XS specific 21:15
FurnaceBoy :)
Supaplex take buu's love life for example 21:16
</tease>
azuroth I like that analogy 21:17
Supaplex I had a hard time resisting :) hehe
FurnaceBoy LOL!!
avar XS?
azuroth cross language? 21:18
"external sub"
avar oh yes
because using E an an acronym is punishable by death or something
azuroth capital E, R and Ls aren't allowed 21:20
Supaplex P! 21:21
FurnaceBoy I guess you wouldn't hold with X -> trans either then avar? 21:23
putter fglock: true. I've just gotten unused to the complex-C-program approach of using "Segfault!" to say "typo/thinko somewhere/anywhere".
FurnaceBoy haha
as one does 21:24
avar FurnaceBoy: ?
FurnaceBoy Xlate -> translate, etc. and other prefixes 21:25
X -> Extensible 21:26
X -> Cross
putter avar: XS is perl5's C extension api. 21:27
nothingmuch has anyone seen audreyt recently? 21:28
FurnaceBoy yesterday
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nothingmuch recently == in the last few hrs 21:28
putter nothingmuch: audreyt was last seen ~21 hours ago 21:29
nothingmuch grazie
azuroth wow, C++ from perl seems surprisingly simple - much better than I imagined
putter perhaps having fun touristing
nothingmuch GPW is over right? is she going back to .tw? 21:30
azuroth: using C++ inside Perl?
are you using Inline?
azuroth no, XS. I'm just looking at how it's done
avar somebody take away damian conway's keyboard, his code is horrible
nothingmuch avar: i agree =/ 21:31
very hard to subclass
putter re audreyt's travel plans... no idea. land, urban. net. :)
avar nothingmuch: just generally a nightmare to read
nothingmuch putter: when you see her..
;-)
avar trying to debug Text::Balanced
nothingmuch avar: yeah, that too
NEXT especially
never tried that one
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azuroth I'd better head to TAFE 21:33
avar nothingmuch: AND THE ONLY COMMENTS HE WRITES ARE IN ALL CAPS 21:34
nothingmuch avar: never noticed that ;-)
avar: you should look at some Catalyst code
every now and then you see something like
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azuroth heheheh. that's so weird. 21:35
nothingmuch local $NEXT::ffoooooo; # NEXT doesn't allow recursive redelegation
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avar nothingmuch: it's true of Text::Balanced at least 21:35
nothingmuch probably found the comments not helpful enough and just blocked them out 21:36
comments rarely help me
not even my own
pasteling "avar" at 85.197.228.236 pasted "fleh" (44 lines, 865B) at sial.org/pbot/16205
avar trying to debug this 21:37
it takes a regex which I escaped but it doesn't like question marks 21:38
nothingmuch avar: try the Regexp::Common hack 21:41
avar I'd rather use something std 21:42
although I could just copy the regex;)
svnbot6 r9331 | pmurias++ | handling of command line option using Getopt::Long(if installed) 21:44
r9331 | pmurias++ | --print-program and --print-ast work now if no ... is used
nothingmuch avar: look in ??{ } for perlre 21:46
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putter one thing one can do when looking at painful code is to ask "what is wrong here? do I ever do it? what can I do to avoid it? can I generalize the problem? do I ever do the generalized wrongness? can I think of a pithy maxim for describing/avoiding this problem?"... ;) 21:50
avar I mainly just scream very loudly and kill something 21:52
I used to rip out my hair too, but now I don't have any
putter different approaches to learning exist...
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pmurias fglock: is it ok to temporarly make ... warn? 22:02
fglock pmurias: temporarily = ok :) 22:03
pmurias thanks 22:04
i'll commit the match printing option, and go to sleep 22:05
expect some kewl options tommorow :), good night 22:08
svnbot6 r9332 | pmurias++ | ... now warns instead of dies
r9332 | pmurias++ | --print-match
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spinclad re where audreyt next, there's a hackathon at leo's coming up 22:30
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svnbot6 r9333 | fglock++ | iterator_engine - the grammar can be extended using perl5 regexes 23:05
r9333 | fglock++ | like 'rule word rx:perl5{^([_[:alnum:]]+)}' - not much tested yet
r9334 | putter++ | Regexp-ReplaceEngine.pm - Can create qr//'s whose results are managed by a perl sub{} callback. And regexp creation /foo/ can be intercepted, in a scoped way (ie, a sub "regexp_compile" will be used, if one is visible). Next step is cleanup and stress testing, using a version of the regexp-spike. Should be able to run the whole p5 regexp test suite.
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fglock pmurias: cool! you can include Perl6Grammar::header() - and then the compiled source code should be runnable! 23:07
s/source code/code/ 23:08
putter hey fglock. this is fun :) 23:09
fglock putter: you may write p6 modules that run in perl5, or run perl 6 in plain mod_perl (some day) 23:10
putter could be. at the moment, I'm just trying to fast-forward history-which-never-was. ie, if p5 regexps had been reentrant, or one could have easily swapped engines, then folks could have long ago done rules in p5 syntax. and operator parsers. and p6 rules. and... 23:14
fglock putter: will you try to run PGE on it? (you've got some days until apr 1st) 23:16
putter: with the new rs:perl5 and a few tweaks, the parser can get quite usable (in speed) 23:17
s/rs/rx/
putter no. oh, I may clone the pge operator parser in p5. but otherwise it its pure perl (well, plus XS;). 23:18
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putter re speed, yes. we may end up with two nice ways to do it. 23:18
which beats the heck out of zero. which has long been our state., 23:19
fglock putter: instead of PGE, you can use the iterator_engine rule parser :)
putter yes
it's the going back and forth to parrot/C-or-pir land which seems currently painful to the point of implausible. 23:20
so ie (*shudder* at the name;) on p5 would be great. :)
fglock you can use Inline::Parrot :)
putter fglock: 2004. we cant even use 2 month old versions. 23:21
fglock putter: I'm ok with renaming - feel free :)
putter :)
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fglock putter: re 2004: my fault - I got involved in Pugs 23:21
putter lol
sooo np 23:22
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fglock it might even work 23:22
putter which?
fglock (Inline::Parrot)
it is a small-ish program, should be easy to fix by someone up-to-date on Parrot 23:23
putter you think something written against a two year-old version of parrot is going to work...?!?
ah, fixable, no doubt.
fglock It's very simple, I think it could have few problems
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fglock but it's not very fast - it is not linked, it uses IPC 23:24
putter few... like the calling conventions changing n times since...;)
fglock putter: tomorrow I'll have to review my milestones - they get outdated too fast 23:25
putter :) 23:26
is there anything you wish you had from p5 regexps which you dont? that would make ie easier?
fglock putter: would review a problem in iterator_engine.p6 ? (something on using code references in closures) 23:27
putter sure 23:28
fglock putter: it doesn't work in pugs - a variable is not updated, I think - it might be being copied instead of "shared"
see the last "not ok" in iterator_engine.p6t 23:29
putter looking...
fglock look for '$alt' in iterator_engine.p6 - this variable doesn't seem to be working properly 23:30
'pugs iterator_engine.p6t'
putter tries to find a copy of pugs not too broken to use... (no use() pun intended) 23:31
fglock the idea is, you define an anon sub, and then call itself recursively
putter: the error happens both in old and new pugs (for some value of new) 23:32
if it works for you, it may be a problem in my pugs :) 23:33
putter I'm getting Can't find iterator_engine.p6.pm in @*INC?
fglock that's the line 'require 'iterator_engine.p6';' - but it works for me 23:34
is it wrnog?
putter ok. (I symlinked the file.) so...
not ok - /[a|c]+ab/ with backtracking
this one?
fglock yes - there are many comments because I was trying to trace the problem - it seems to be in the sub 'ruleop::greedy_plus' 23:36
I'm trying to do something like 'my $alt; $alt = sub { $alt() };' 23:37
but I think the $alt inside the sub is not set 23:38
sorry, need to go now 23:41
23:41 FurnaceBoy_ is now known as FurnaceBoy
fglock I'll backtrack, err, backlog 23:41
putter np. 23:42
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