Summer of Perl | 6.2.12 released! | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | www.treehugger.com/files/th_images/paradigm.jpg
Set by nothingmuch on 12 July 2006.
00:06 mdiep joined 00:22 ludan joined 00:26 xerox- joined
svnbot6 r11929 | fglock++ | pX/Pugs-Compiler-* - more s/Regex/Token/; ram use drops to 100-150MB 00:44
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svnbot6 r11930 | fglock++ | pX/Pugs-Compiler-* - fixed ':' in Regex; t/01-sanity/* pass; Test.pm fails (uses about 320MB) 02:08
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dolmans seen TimToady 03:40
jabbot dolmans: TimToady was seen 5 hours 33 minutes 11 seconds ago
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dolmans is there a memo bot? 03:53
TimToady: [,] seems more sense, i tested and worked. but `for (@a, @b) {}' did NOT flatten currently. 03:58
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TimToady dolmans: then it's a bug, I expect 04:11
I note that for (1,2,3), (4,5,6) -> $x { say $x } 04:13
seems to work right.
dolmans TimToady: yes, for your saying, there is a bug. 04:16
bug is our friend. not-implemented-feature is a synonym. 04:26
i guess if we really wanna traverse the two array objects, then should say `for (\@a, \@b) { say }' 04:27
azuroth bugs aren't very friendly 04:38
dolmans azuroth: considering them friend makes life easier. 05:10
azuroth heheh, by befriending them and therefore not squashing them? :-P
dolmans making them behave better not sqaushing in my sight. 05:11
spinclad treat them with loving kindness and compassion to help them ease their unfriendliness and cluelessness of the right way; share their joy in finding the right way 05:15
dolmans nod 05:16
clkao win 7 05:18
gaal good morning 05:20
dolmans morning gaal
gaal audreyt: take over the world^W^W^W^Wswitch over to new AST-p?
hi dolmans
spinclad boqer tov, gaal 05:21
clkao moose
gaal g'antlers to all of ye }:)
spinclad gaal: hegemony^W: sounds like a plan 05:23
gaal spinclad: I have prepared Special Coffee 05:24
spinclad that's good. you would need it even more if you were here. the sun is dead asleep. 05:25
fuel for enlivening new AST's! 05:26
clkao gaal: hiveminer is launched! 05:27
gaal whee! 05:28
gaal hands out royal jelly-spiked coffee for all 05:29
azuroth honey coffee..?
spinclad coffee to bring out the queen in everyone 05:30
azuroth heheheh
spinclad y'all rule, now, hear?
gaal for those who don't like it there's also Abstract Syntax Tea 05:32
azuroth *cringe*
spinclad goes for some functors and tea 05:34
azuroth parsec is sweet. 05:39
clkao fglock: testpm fails because $foo if $bar is not parsing exp1. probably pcr problem for recursive rule 06:06
fglock: actually using $<exp1> rather than the rule name matched returns something not parsed 06:08
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gaal elks 07:05
azuroth meese 07:06
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gaal argh why does the build system attempt to remake all the third-party/ deps every time? 07:17
they don't need to be recompiled but visiting them takes time 07:18
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audreyt gaal: switchover will take place at roughly 16 hours from now 08:42
and continue for 80 hours
(with interspersed sleep if I'm fortunate) 08:43
and we'll see if 3.5 days is sufficient to do it
the last time (Pugs.Types.* and IVar) took 3 days
clkao audreyt: hey
audreyt hey 08:44
I just got myself a WiFly account
so will be able to remain online much more from now
clkao cool
why not use 3g?
audreyt (citywide wifi)++ # even if they charge for it now
svnbot6 r11931 | audreyt++ | * Data::Bind - silence a gcc warning about pointer type compatibility.
audreyt WiFly is significantly cheaper?
clkao 300 a month? 08:45
audreyt and now equally pervasive in city
3000 a year
clkao ah.
the roaming didn't work quite well last time i tried
audreyt mm
worksforme
(on MRT)
clkao ya, that works 08:46
audreyt (hotspring with wifly wifi)++
(bbiab) 08:47
clkao heh. isn't it a bit too warm not
fglock: RE: ->recompile mutating parser - need to take out the infix stuff after parsing a module though
meppl guten morgen 08:56
gaal is 1 ntd ~~ 0.03 usd? 08:58
if so that looks like an amazing deal
08:58 lollan joined
gaal reads arrows paper 08:59
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azuroth citywide wifi? what city? 09:02
gaal wonders if the PLit class was needed after all and whether literal showing might have been done like the Perl5 class
09:02 rindolf joined
rindolf Hi all. 09:02
audreyt: here?
clkao gaal: where do you think all the wireless chips are made?
gaal azuroth: Taipei, presumably.
09:02 Southen joined
rindolf Hi gaal, clkao 09:03
gaal clkao: Taipei, presumably.
clkao actually hsinchu, 1hr from taipei ;)
gaal rindolf: Taipei, presumably # okay, two out of three for sense ain't bad
azuroth rindolf: Taipei, presumably
arr
gaal harr
azuroth I was four seconds too slow 09:04
09:04 Revision17 joined
gaal 'slong as we're in agreement :) 09:04
gaal wonders who invented the typesetting convention in funcP papers to partially overwrite operators. 09:05
azuroth wonders who invented the infinity symbol. what a pain to write. 09:11
rindolf Scarvey ye timber! 09:12
azuroth: in real hand writing? 09:13
azuroth: it's \inf in LaTeX
And also has a unicode symbol.
azuroth yes, in real hand writing :-)
rindolf Well, I'd better configure my Mandriva home dir to be available on Kubuntu. 09:14
I'm an exile because Mandriva Cooker messed up X.org. 09:15
StudiesInWords you know how to write an 8, right..?
rindolf in exile even.
StudiesInWords: yes, just turn the page.
azuroth yeah, but turning the page is annoying. what a pain.
gaal you need a pageturning combinator library 09:16
azuroth that would be nice...
bye all, I'm off for fun
gaal inf = pageturn 8
fun that you're not off for good
rindolf azuroth: bye!
azuroth: have fun. 09:17
gaal: do you have a gf?
gaal: I sent a resignation email yesterday.
gaal: I'm going to give a shot at being a freelancer of sorts.
gaal: where are you working now? 09:18
gaal from these questions it sounds like you want to be my freelance gf? 09:19
rindolf gaal: no. 09:20
gaal: I'm just asking.
audreyt "freelance gf" sounds like a fascinating concept. 09:22
rindolf AUDREYT!!!
audreyt: what's up?
audreyt svk
rindolf audreyt: cool.
audreyt as in "svk up" # ok, not funny 09:23
rindolf audreyt: hacking on svk?
perlbot: top 10 karma
perlbot The top 10 karma entries: C: 1146, iblech: 227, $i: 197, C/C: 166, audreyt: 151, fglock: 146, stevan: 127, gaal: 123, putter: 121, $x: 93
rindolf audreyt: you're gaining more karma recently. Lots of commits?
audreyt probably just longer commit logs.
rindolf audreyt: I see. 09:24
gaal there was that time when she committed a formatting change with a three-page log message consisting of blank lines except one period in the middle. I always told her to use the <CENTER> tag, but she wouldn't listen.
audreyt I learned it from gaal, who has committed a 2-d projection of a three dimensional fractal pyramid 09:26
rindolf gaal: <CENTER> is depracated.
audreyt: :-)
audreyt: as a test result?
audreyt that spans 1792 lines
gaal we should hack svnbot so that it --s someone who's code you're removing 09:27
audreyt rindolf: no... I was replying gaal's counterfactual statement with another one
gaal: aww, how very zero sum thinking
rindolf audreyt: OK.
gaal audreyt: of course it's counterfactual! it was't a pyramid, it was a dodecahedron!
audreyt surely it's a icosahedron? 09:28
d20 system is more popular, I hear
rindolf audreyt: www.shlomifish.org/MathVentures/dodeca.html 09:29
gaal audreyt: actually it's just like adding a RULE to make karma the grep -c ^$name `svk praise` of the project
lambdabot Title: What's the Volume of a Dodecahedron?
gaal so there can be fusion, or something
ok this is getting too inane for noon conversation, even if this is IRC 09:30
audreyt mm karma fusion
gaal plops back to them arrows
rindolf audreyt: so I decided to enter the fear and become a freelancer of sorts. 09:31
audreyt you may find my ByteString parrows in the pugs tree to be helpful
rindolf audreyt: I'm also trying to get sponsorship for a year.
audreyt rindolf: nice.
you'll also get uncertainty and doubt for free!
but it'll be fun.
gaal audreyt: gracias
audreyt de nada 09:32
rindolf audreyt: are you studying a new human language now?
audreyt no 09:33
rindolf audreyt: I see.
audreyt: maybe I should take some German courses.
Or work on my Arabic.
I studied Written Arabic for 6 years in High School, but lost most of my vocab.
gaal btw, why the higher-rank polymorphism in the "real" declarations of class Monad? the tutorials always have it class Monad m where (>>=) :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
rindolf Semitic languages are a bitch, but kids can get the hang of them pretty quickly. 09:34
gaal but the real type in ghc at least is forall a b. m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
audreyt it's the same
gaal hmm, is there a difference at all? the scope is for the entire expresion
audreyt ghc just makes forall explicit
gaal then why bother?
audreyt: this is in the source code...
not @type
audreyt for pedagogical reasons
gaal libraries/base/GHC/Base.lhs 09:35
audreyt alternatively, someone copy and pasted :t
;)
gaal :)
pedagogical doesn't make sense here because in the same class, return a :: a -> m a
w/o explicit quantification
or maybe, just bad pedagogy :)
audreyt badagogy 09:36
they are used interchangeably
and might be authored by different people anyway 09:37
the explicit "forall a b." is clearer because you won't
read (a->m b) as (forall b. a->mb)
accidentally
and "return" has no such problem
but that's retrojustifiction... probably just badagogy
gaal unjustification
audreyt jestification 09:38
gaal why would you ever read (a->m b) as (forall b. a -> m b) ?
audreyt jest-driven development
you wouldn't. :) 09:39
so. Class.MOP.
gaal that's a bit like wager-driven development. "bet you can't write a program to..."
whee
audreyt I've backlogged the #moose discussion
seems that we really want it to compile before the switch 09:40
gaal after my brain stopped hurting so did i, and it made more sense on a reread
nothingmuch's proposals often do, if I can get past the brainhurt stage, which I can't always 09:41
audreyt: I'll get it to compile then.
audreyt yay. 09:42
gaal oh, can you summarize usage gudelines for encodeUTF8 and decodeUTF8 please? they are teh confusing.
audreyt ok... don't.
that's a nice and short summary I hope 09:43
gaal I want to write something that emits a NativeStr as String; should it encode or decode?
heh.
jsut use Data.ByteString.Char8?
audreyt aye
gaal ACK.
that's indeed the best possible summary
you are a monadic summarizer.
audreyt :D 09:44
meanwhile I'll work on PIL.Native.Eval
porting it to CapInternals
gaal 'hip' xx 2 ~ hooray
hope precedence doesn't bork that? 09:45
?eval 'hip' xx 2 ~ hooray
09:45 evalbot_11922 is now known as evalbot_11931
evalbot_11931 Error: No such sub: "&hooray" 09:45
gaal ?eval 'hip' xx 2 ~ 'hooray'
grr.
evalbot_11931 "hip hiphooray"
gaal computers are hard, lets go computer shopping.
audreyt ?eval "{'hip' xx 2, 'hooray'}"
evalbot_11931 "hip hip hooray"
gaal ha!
audreyt it's nice that I got enough $job done that I have nothing on queue until at least wednesday 09:46
and only a couple afternoons after that
jifty++ # massive timesaver
gaal (pony-oriented programming)++
audreyt msie6-- # 50% of time spent on working around its bugs
gaal jifty++ # you'd be spending a lot less than 50% of your time workaroungind msi bugs if it weren't for a framework that made the other things easy 09:48
# but there'd be more time spent overall
bbiab&
argh third-party/ annoys me 10:05
audreyt move back to src/? 10:07
btw, GHC 6.5-trunk now allows multiple module names to be concurrnetly installed
and all dependencies are qualified by (package-version-module) triple
so userinstalled fps and pugs fps can now coexist 10:08
and we don't have to rename things anymore
i.e. GHC finally supports multiversioning.
gaal that's very excellent 10:09
audreyt I can't wait for 6.6 to be available as binary on all major platforms.
that's perhaps still 3~4 months in the future.
gaal but my current gripe is that 'make pugs' vists 3rdp superfluously
audreyt yeah. you can nix the revisit 10:10
util/build_pupgs
line 74
probe for -M of the .a file
gaal does ccache really work with ghc? i just did 'ccache -s' and saw no hits
audreyt and don't rebuild if there's it
gaal good idea 10:11
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gaal hmm. what's a good thing to compare the -M of the lib against? the dir modification time? 10:20
s/dir/lib hs source dir/
don't want to reinvent make... but ISTR the revisits didn't use to happen, was there another clever mechanism? 10:22
svnbot6 r11932 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Set-Relation/ : start to reimplement this module using fewer Perl 6 features, so that it can be made to work sooner 10:36
audreyt no 10:38
revisit is neccessary for third-party/
gaal too bad :(
audreyt as 6.2.1's cabal doens't support multiple source dirs
6.4.1
and in any case we may want to configure each third-party diferently
gaal troo 10:39
audreyt: I had to use -fno-monomorphism-restriction in a small refactoring I just made. what's the haskell 98 longhand spelling for what I did? 10:41
svnbot6 r11933 | gaal++ | * minor cleanups 10:42
r11933 | gaal++ | * fps literal string quoter for Perl6Class
audreyt usually just means you need to decurry
and name the params explicitly
gaal beh
audreyt ts = text . show . plShow 10:43
change to
gaal (haskell > 98)++
audreyt ts x = text . show $ plShow x
gaal so much for equational reasoning :)
audreyt hackage.haskell.org/trac/haskell-prime/ticket/80 10:44
lambdabot Title: #80 (Reform the monomorphism restriction) - Haskell Prime - Trac
gaal haskell rfc process! when's the first Apocalypse come out? 10:46
audreyt actually... we vote as a committee :)
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gaal if Trac were implemented in Haskell, the company that made it would need to have been renamed BestTheoretical 10:49
svnbot6 r11934 | gaal++ | remove comment, we'll stay with the extension 10:54
gaal hmmmm looks like hs-boot files again :( 11:00
MOP <-> CapInternals
audreyt usually solvable with implicit param :) 11:01
(see Pugs.Parser/Operator)
but for now, feel free to use .hs-boot
can always refactor later
gaal it's types, not funcs 11:02
audreyt much better than #include
so you can't go anywhere but up
types can maybe get factored out?
to another common dep mod
but .hs-boot is fine
jet lag is kicking in bad... 11:05
I'll resume hacking for real after sleep
gaal nightie
audreyt be back in ~10hr :)
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svnbot6 r11935 | gaal++ | * Make Pugs.MOP compile. Yippie! 12:48
r11935 | gaal++ | * Add demo misc/pX/gaal/CMTest.hs (currently displays some bogosity
r11935 | gaal++ | in asPerl6Object, hmm)
gaal audreyt: I punted somewhat with the circularity, and simply moved the type definitions all to Pugs.AST.CapInternals. It's not totally evil since the AST *is* coupled with the MOP a little bit... 12:50
audreyt sure. 12:54
yay!
gaal can't sleep? :/ 12:55
audreyt oh. right. forgot that I'm sleeping now 12:56
audreyt remembers and dozes off
gaal :P 12:58
.oO( and disappears in a puff of timezone difference )
 13:06
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jferrero Hi 14:55
14:55 elmex joined
TimToady howdy 15:01
gaal moose! 15:20
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lichtkind welsome back all here :) 15:42
welcome
stevan gaal: m??se? 15:45
gaal: in response to your question in #moose about Object 15:47
Object has no superclass
it's metaclass is an instance of Class
(now here comes the really fun part)
Class's superclass is Object
Class's metaclass is an instance of Class 15:48
I made pretty pictures of this a while back (including the Package and Module stuff as well) - svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/perl5/Perl..._model.jpg
and the MiniMetaModel is a fairly simple example of how to bootstrap the circularity I described above 15:49
svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/perl5/Perl...taModel.pl
and to further prove that Perl really is the new LISP,... here is a LISP version of the mini-meta-model...which is suprisingly similar - sial.org/pbot/18789 15:51
lambdabot Title: Paste #18789 from "stevan" at 71.234.68.135
15:52 justatheory joined
gaal stevan: moose! but my question was, which *module* does Object have? presumably one with the package "Object", yes? 15:56
stevan gaal: uhm,.. yeah 15:57
stevan is a little confused
TimToady stevan: but you've just proven that Perl *5* is the new Lisp...
gaal stevan: See svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/src/Pugs/MOP.hs and near the bottom of svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/src/Pugs/A...ternals.hs
stevan TimToady: yes, for Christmas I will prove that with Perl 6 :) 15:58
TimToady I want it now. Wah! Wah! Wah!
stevan gaal: is the module the storage?
TimToady: I know a few people... I will see what I can do :P 15:59
gaal classObject = MkClass { c_module = the modules that has 'Object' as its name, ... }
stevan: this is code you helped us write in chicago: 16:00
CapInternals.hs:789
the basic oo thingies
a package has a name and maybe a parent 16:01
a module is a package + version stuff # and the 'package' part may be anonymous really
stevan gaal: yes, ok,.. it is coming back to me now
stevan had to put on his Haskell glasses to see
gaal a class is a module (maybe) plus superclass list and method+slots stuff 16:02
stevan yup
so in answer to your question then... yes,.. Object's module is the one with the name *Object* 16:03
gaal nothingmuch had proposed something i'm only partially understanding (but am less shocked at as I was when he first brought it forth)
stevan the interface stuff?
gaal in #moose
yeah
really needs a better name :)
stevan yeah we have been discussing that even more in the context of Class::MOP
gaal: agreed,.. we dont want to have Java connotations
gaal so excellent, classObject is correct 16:04
stevan gaal: in CapInternals.hs you have the superclass of Class being Class
it should be Object
or am I compiling that wrong ?
gaal stevan: it's not that I'm worried about java connotations as such; it's just that we are already using the term 'protocol' to mean what 'interface' means in java 16:05
(more or less)
stevan like in Objective C?
gaal stevan: nope, that is only a *type*
stevan gaal: ok,..
stevan flips some compiler switches in his wetware GHC 16:06
gaal c_superClasses :: [Class] -- the c_superClasses field is of type "list of Class"
stevan ahh MOP.hs clears it all up
gaal If I ever design a font, stevan, I'll add a character dedicated to you
the semicomma: ",.." 16:07
stevan :)
kind of like a semicolon that has fallen over and it's brains spilt out
16:07 Psyche^ joined
gaal yes MOP.hs has the data and eventually the functionality, CapInternals just, uh, schemas 16:08
splillipses
16:08 prefiks joined
stevan gaal: re: nothingmuch's crazy "interface" idea,.. we have discussed the idea that everything can (on some level) act as a role 16:14
and that there are two kinds of role composition, implict and explicit
and when an attribute needs to create accessors, etc,.. it creates a role which is implicityly combined into the class 16:15
16:15 Psyche^ is now known as StudiesInWords
stevan and during that implict composition, the class actually pretend to be a role (Class does Role) so that conflicts can be caught and dealt with rather than just blowing up 16:15
it gets a little messier in the details, but it seems to be working out so far 16:17
anym??se, time to do some $work :(
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gaal The Arrows paper remarks "[...] Luckily this does not matter: it is rare that we /want/ to write a parser which decides on the grammar to accept on the basis of previously parsed values". 17:19
Does this ultimately mean we can't use an Arrow-based parsing library for Perl 6?
(page 20 in the draft that I have) 17:20
bbiab & 17:21
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ludan re 18:10
StudiesInWords kartoffelpue 18:16
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lichtkind StudiesInWords you mean Kartoffelpueree? 20:16
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nothingmuch audreyt: ping 22:03
how do you do <readmore> on typepad? 22:04
rindolf Hi nothingmuch 22:05
nothingmuch: what's up?
nothingmuch hi rindolf
not much
22:05 prefiks left
nothingmuch helping ann with summaries 22:05
rindolf nothingmuch: nice.
nothingmuch off to bed soon
rindolf nothingmuch: is Ann the girl with the piggy tails?
nothingmuch: OK.
nothingmuch ann is the one you liked
rindolf nothingmuch: whom I said was cute?
nothingmuch: OK.
nothingmuch yes
she has no pig tails though
rindolf nothingmuch: OK. 22:06
clkao nothingmuch 22:07
moose
nothingmuch hiya clkao
whazaaaap
clkao knothing much
nothingmuch hopes the tea will arrive tomorrow 22:08
clkao any luick with the tracker? 22:09
nothingmuch not yet
i thiink the code is wrong
but *shrug*
clkao *odh*
oh well
rindolf nothingmuch: are you on IRC tomorrow? 22:13
nothingmuch rindolf: probably
rindolf I'll need you guys help with a TPF grant request.
"the help of you guys" even.
For HTML::Widgets::NavMenu 22:14
nothingmuch read ovid's tips 22:15
rindolf use.perl.org/comments.pl?sid=32177
lambdabot Title: Call for TPF Grant "Volunteers" : HTML-Widgets-NavMenu
rindolf nothingmuch: yeah, I know.
When is the deadline?
nothingmuch i dunno
nothingmuch has never submitted a TPF grant
i doubt i can help other than summarizing what Ovid said ;-) 22:16
clkao are you trying to get a grant not for yoursefl?
nothingmuch i don't think you can do that 22:17
rindolf clkao: well, I'm now trying to get a grant *for* myself.
clkao: my post to the blog was a grant proto-proposal.
So other people can submit if they're looking for good idea.
s
22:19 lichtkind joined
lichtkind ? $primzahlen = \(2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23); 22:21
is this valid perl6 ? 22:22
nothingmuch night fols 22:25
folks
svnbot6 r11936 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Set-Relation/ : updated Relation.pm so it compiles ; added 3 new subs/methods ; discovered parsefails for \!=:=, eqv, (probably \!=== and \!eqv too), and 'sub foo of bar ...' 22:31
22:31 dduncan joined, penk joined 22:32 dduncan left
lichtkind g night 22:35
?eval $primzahlen = \(2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23);
22:36 evalbot_11931 is now known as evalbot_11936
evalbot_11936 Error: Undeclared variable: "$primzahlen" 22:36
lichtkind ?eval my $primzahlen = \(2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23);
evalbot_11936 [2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23]
lichtkind ah thx
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jferrero ?eval print "2+2" 23:08
evalbot_11936 OUTPUT[2+2] Bool::True
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