Check your feather email | spec.pugscode.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com | www.treehugger.com/files/th_images/paradigm.jpg
Set by audreyt on 29 August 2006.
markstos I'm working on IO.pod a little. Will signals in Perl 6 be basically the same as Perl 5 ? and IPC ? 00:00
svnbot6 r13281 | markstos++ | [docs/Perl6/Spec/IO.pod] 00:17
r13281 | markstos++ | - add some initial organization by adding "File, filehandles and directories" section, based on Perl5 perlfunc
r13281 | markstos++ | - Created "unfiled" section for the rest of the functions for now. perl5 perlfunc
r13281 | markstos++ | could provide further inspiration on how to organize these.
r13281 | markstos++ | - Documented the first function, chmod, by doing 'perldoc -u -f chmod'
r13281 | markstos++ | and copying the POD over. I trimmed out the 'fchmod' and 'fcntl'
r13281 | markstos++ | sections because I wasn't sure how/if they applied to Perl 6.
r13281 | markstos++ | If you know better, please add them back in with appropriate
r13281 | markstos++ | adjustments.
r13282 | markstos++ | IO.pod 00:21
r13282 | markstos++ | change headings from 'or' to 'and' to make more sense.
r13281 | markstos++ | [docs/Perl6/Spec/IO.pod]
r13281 | markstos++ | - add some initial organization by adding "File, filehandles and directories" section, based on Perl5 perlfunc
r13281 | markstos++ | - Created "unfiled" section for the rest of the functions for now. perl5 perlfunc
r13281 | markstos++ | could provide further inspiration on how to organize these.
r13281 | markstos++ | - Documented the first function, chmod, by doing 'perldoc -u -f chmod'
r13281 | markstos++ | and copying the POD over. I trimmed out the 'fchmod' and 'fcntl'
r13281 | markstos++ | sections because I wasn't sure how/if they applied to Perl 6.
r13281 | markstos++ | If you know better, please add them back in with appropriate
r13281 | markstos++ | adjustments.
markstos weird. It announced r13281 twice.
mugwump with 13282 in between 00:29
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svnbot6 r13283 | fglock++ | v6 - implemented .WHAT - TimToady++ 00:31
r13284 | markstos++ | IO.pod: add barebones spec for 'open' based on the syntax the tests have. 00:43
r13285 | markstos++ | IO.pod: 00:52
r13285 | markstos++ | Add 'getc' basic spec, based on current pugs tests, and
r13285 | markstos++ | the perl5 definition. Only the FILEHANDLE case is covered
r13285 | markstos++ | now (not STDIN) because that's all the test I'm looking at covers.
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markstos for working with directories, do we want to stick with the opedir/readdir interface, or use something more like IO::Dir in Perl 5 or provide both interfaces ? 00:58
search.cpan.org/~gbarr/IO-1.2301/IO/Dir.pm
lambdabot Title: IO::Dir - supply object methods for directory handles - search.cpan.org, tinyurl.com/g6js2
markstos Personally, I find the IO::Dir design cleaner, would be fine with retiring the functional interface.
it required a "DIRHANDLE" concept, which doesn't seem necessary. when just making directories another kind of object will do. 00:59
svnbot6 r13286 | lwall++ | .HOW.getmethods and .HOW.getattributes lose their "get". 01:04
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TimToady markstos: likely signals will become events of some sort and shoved into an event queue somewhere. 01:07
markstos My translation: don't bother trying to spec them myself right now. 01:08
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markstos I just noticed we can already do readdir($dir) or $dir.readdir, which follows logically, but was still cool to see working both ways. 01:09
I mean, not bad for an unspec'ed feature. :)
TimToady Let's just say it'd be fine by me if %SIG disappeared. 01:10
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markstos That's fine with me too, as long as I know what to translate $SIG{__WARN__} into. 01:12
svnbot6 r13287 | markstos++ | IO.pod 01:17
r13287 | markstos++ | Add specs for opendir,closedir,readdir and rewinddir
r13287 | markstos++ | based on dir.t and perl5 perlfunc.
r13288 | markstos++ | [t/builtins]
r13288 | markstos++ | Add working smart links to 5 files pointing to S16.
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markstos I see in the P5 spec for close() that sometimes SIGPIPE can be sent to the writer. Should I just trim that part out for now ? 01:19
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TimToady I suppose. 01:20
markstos I'm having trouble constructing the right grep to find this: What's become of $? 01:21
TimToady warnings are now just resumable exceptions, so $SIG{__WARN__} is likely to be intercepted in some kind of exception handler. 01:22
Perhaps the default warning resumer pays attention to &*warning_interception_hook or some such.
all exceptions are now in $! 01:23
markstos $? is gone ?
TimToady Along with $@, $^E
all unified to $! 01:24
markstos Thanks!
I mean: thanks for doing that-- not just thanks for telling me about it!
TimToady It was kind of a gamble, but it seems to be working out.
anyway, dinner & 01:25
markstos simplicity++ ... when it works
svnbot6 r13289 | markstos++ | IO.pod 01:29
r13289 | markstos++ | Bring over the spec for 'close' from Perl 5.
r13289 | markstos++ | Changed $? to $! (TimToady++), and trimmed out
r13289 | markstos++ | the part about SIGPIPE, which is still unspec'ed.
markstos will perl6 have "perl -U" like Perl 5 has? It's mentioned in the spec for 'unlink' that I'm trying to port. 01:33
svnbot6 r13290 | markstos++ | IO.pod 01:38
r13290 | markstos++ | port the specs for unlink and rmdir from Perl 5.
r13290 | markstos++ | The section mentioning "perl -U" was removed, since
r13290 | markstos++ | I don't know if that's planned to be supported in Perl 6.
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svnbot6 r13291 | markstos++ | [t/var] 01:47
r13291 | markstos++ | Some smart linking work, doc clean-up.
peteso I take it that doing an initial `svk sync` is suppose to take awhile? (committing all the revisions) 02:04
audreyt peteso: yes, a couple hours is not uncommon 02:05
peteso if I am picking up the pugs repo and want to do offline changes and what not, is that the right way to go?
clkao eek 02:06
we are working on making it faster
audreyt peteso: yes.
clkao this project grows too fast ;)
peteso sweet, thank you
audreyt clkao: would that require openfoundry be upgraded to 1.4.0 server?
clkao possibly
ra_replay is likely to be a bit faster.
audreyt or does it involve running a dedicated svk server?
clkao but it's still quite latency bound
audreyt ah. *nod*
we need some sort of pipelining
clkao want to have meta-data pointing to bootstrap dump and make magic happen
audreyt it's really not that much data
it's all bound on DAV latency it seems 02:07
peteso is the slowdown on account of the `svk` app locally or downloading or the server?
audreyt too much interactions
peteso: the protocol
clkao i hate software
audreyt compare that to keep-alive darcs GET chains :)
peteso is it a WebDAV operation per revision request? 02:08
audreyt or three
but it's more expensive than it needs to be, yeah
peteso ahh 02:09
mugwump of course git-fetch wins on all counts
clkao worse than that. you don't want to know. 02:10
mugwump (except partial checkouts)
audreyt I remember clkao swearing about DAV's stupidity vividly when openfoundry was being designed...
peteso must svn be tied to DAV?
mugwump already noticed clkao's repos aren't shared via DAV :) 02:11
TimToady markstos: perl -U should go away. it shouldn't be lumping together unrelated "dangerous" notions under one switch in any event.
audreyt no, but having a ssh account for each committer was deemed impractical for openfoundry; also port 80 is more proxy friendly
peteso makes sense
audreyt but, in practice, unless you are code.google.com, the proxy win is entirely theoretical; mostly linkability is the only real win
clkao i think dav is amonst the software i hate most 02:12
though it's protocol. anyway. hate
peteso linkability as in the http:// URLs?
obra clkao's repositories will be shared with DAV soon 02:13
as soon as commitbit is safe
clkao RRAAAH!
svk rm commitbit 02:14
obra why? because svnserve can't do vhosting yet
clkao i hate hate hate dav
obra ok. then give me "svk publish"
clkao can do svn://code/foo
similar to what dav is going to give us 02:15
obra nope. because there's already a repo at / on that host
[For those playing the home game, cl is sitting 2 feet from me]
clkao that's for svn+ssh:// no ? 02:16
obra no. for svn://
bps-public is at diesel's root
clkao but i am grumpy so you don't want to talk to me
GRR
svnserve does ip-based vhost
maybe we should get another ip
audreyt regrets brining up DAV and vanishes in a puff of logic
clkao audreyt: it's all your fault 02:17
audreyt: you owe me birthday gift
obra clkao: perl 6?
audreyt I thought we're supposed to give out gifts on birthday
so I've safe until next April
clkao you didn't even say happy birthday!
peteso wonders if it was actually he who brought up the issue..
audreyt s/I've/I'm/
clkao: oy. "happy birthday" xx Inf 02:18
mugwump that's a lazy blessing
clkao that's very depressing
TimToady That's too many. How 'bout xx *?
mugwump whatever
TimToady can't get the vision of DAV pickles out of my head...I blame audrey 02:19
PerlJam Is DAV pickles related to Tommy Pickles? 02:20
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jdv79 how's things in p6 land? 03:26
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peteso apparently quiet :) 03:38
Akwa|user Check your feather email | spec.pugscode.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com | www.treehugger.com/files/th_images/paradigm.jpg [set by audreyt on 2006-08-29 05:26:57 -0700] 03:42
Khisanth ?eval [1..10:2] 03:48
03:48 evalbot_r13276 is now known as evalbot_r13291
evalbot_r13291 Error: unexpected "[" expecting program 03:48
Khisanth ?eval 1..10:2
evalbot_r13291 Error: unexpected ":" expecting "_", fraction, exponent, term postfix, comment, operator, "does", "but", "^fff^", "fff^", "^fff", "^ff^", "^..^", "fff", "ff^", "^ff", "cmp", "leg", "<=>", "..^", "^..", "ff", "..", postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
Teratogen err, those are what perl6 error messages are gonna look like? 03:51
Khisanth hehe
reminds me of using C++
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TimToady I believe the error messages can be improved somewhat once we have our parse written in Perl 6. 04:02
*parer
*parser, darn it
PerlJam Teratogen: no, that's what they look like now.
TimToady: we can only go up from here :) 04:03
TimToady I think in general the "expecting" part is useless unless it can be pared down to a few general categories.
and I think it's quite outrageous in human engineering to say "unexpected 'w'" when the keyword is "while" 04:05
but these things can be fixed more easily after we abandon parsec.
(I sincerely hope.)
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PerlJam One day we'll get to the point where the compiler says "I wasn't expecting what you wrote here but based on your past programming patterns I think that you really meant to write ... so I fixed it for you and continued compiling. You may want to look over my changes." 04:16
revdiablo Bayesian parsing? 04:17
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TimToady I wouldn't use such fancy parsing to "fix it and go on", but I wouldn't mind if it were smart enough to give you a meaningful error message like "you meant :by(2) rather than :2 there" 04:23
PerlJam TimToady: I agree with all of these cool things you're putting in the language but I do tend to worry a bit about performance. Maybe Moore's Law can save us still though. 04:26
(I was worried about how much slower perl5 was than perl4 but in practice it wasn't an issue)
PerlJam hopes that trend continues :)
TimToady what runs fast and what runs slow will probably depend greatly on the impedance match with the VM in question. 04:27
I expect the P5-ish parts to run quite fast on the P6-on-P5 stack... 04:28
On the other hand, parrot is likely to be lot faster at other things.
platforms that JIT will have entirely different characteristics from those that don't 04:29
my hope is that the slowdown in MMD is made up for by calling the right routine with args that are already known to be of the right type.
but it remains to be seen how that performs in practice.
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mugwump yeah, strict typing and closed classes should bring on some wins for some VM 04:31
(where "strict" means "strict enough")
TimToady for some applications that can close classes
open frameworks might not be able to decide such things in advance. 04:32
on the other hand, compiling it both ways might work.
PerlJam Perl6 will have a new motto (to go along with all of the others) "There's more than one runtime to execute it" or some such. 04:33
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TimToady the notion of breaking circularity differently on different platforms also gives us a lot of leeway in optimizing for big and small iron. 04:34
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PerlJam now .. if only I could write a program that executed in wetware that could fix whatever it is that's giving my daughter a fever 04:40
TimToady um, presumably you already wrote the program, or at least half of it... 04:41
but it's an adaptive algorithm... 04:42
so sometimes you just have to be patient.
mugwump the program would be called a diagnostic process? :) 04:43
TimToady I'd call it a problem in pattern matching.
mugwump Hmm, could carry the analogy further ... Traditional medicine is to functional as Western medicine is to imperative 04:44
TimToady after which it becomes a problem in parallel processing.
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mugwump the imperative meds break things down into tiny pieces, the functional meds look at the system as a whole 04:45
imperative meds don't understand functional meds and are *sure* they're going about things All Wrongā„¢
and functional meds fix health problems with the tiniest programs (treatments, eg needles) 04:46
but they're no good at debugging really broken programs 04:47
PerlJam wonders if the bioinformatics people are looking for and finding recursive structures 04:49
Teratogen perl6 error messages are gonna require a wiki or something 05:03
mugwump subversion repositories are the new wikis 05:04
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gaal PerlJam: "Fast, Error Correcting Parserwww.cs.uu.nl/groups/ST/stbib/stbib-...Azer99.bib 06:02
lambdabot tinyurl.com/httm6
gaal er, oops.
"Fast, Error Correcting Parser Combinators: A Short Tutorial"
and: www.cs.uu.nl/people/doaitse/Papers/...omPars.pdf 06:03
lambdabot tinyurl.com/gkvhj 06:04
gaal consider that Eclipse aready has that "quickfix" feature which is quite impressive for Java. 06:06
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TreyHarris wow. note to self: do not examine $self inside a POE session object. 06:45
svnbot6 r13292 | gaal++ | * signature.t - clean up tests a bit. Most failures were typos
r13292 | gaal++ | in the test, in fact. Clearly the Signature parser needs better
r13292 | gaal++ | error messages! 06:46
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peteso could perchance anybody give me some assistance with an `svk sync`? 08:07
kane-xs peteso: what assistance are you looking for? 08:08
peteso I am trying to sync the pugs repo so I can poke around 08:09
kane-xs have you read 'svk help intro' ?
peteso 'tis slightly more involved than that.. I am seeing "Retrieving log information from 12102 to 13292"
followed by "Incomplete data: Delta source ended unexpectedly" 08:10
kane-xs ouch
what happens when you type svk sync again?
peteso I'm not sure if that's something at my end or at openfoundry
same thing
lumi peteso: Both
There was some repo breakage at that point
And you need to update, um, some module 08:11
It should be in the logs
kane-xs peteso: to work around it, you can use svk sync -s REVNUMBER
peteso lumi: hmm.. which logs should I be looking for?
kane-xs so you dont get full history, just the ones starting REVNUM
lumi The channel logs
peteso kane: oh, that makes a lot more sense!! I felt bad for pounding the server for hours with the slow DAV requests
lumi: thanks, I'll look into that 08:12
kane: if I had only known that useful trick, thank you.. will make things a lot faster 08:13
kane-xs you're welcome :)
lumi peteso: colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/...l=633#l931 08:16
lambdabot Title: #perl6 2006-08-11,Fri, tinyurl.com/f8p6h
peteso lumi: yes, I was just reading that over.. apparently it's an svk issue moreso than svn
lumi Ah, SVN::Mirror, apparently 08:18
peteso you guys are very helpful, thanks 08:22
TreyHarris within a named sub foo () { ... }, foo() should always recurse, should it not? 08:23
it shouldn't call some other sub foo elsewhere?
buu TreyHarris: How many subroutines named foo do you have? 08:28
svnbot6 r13293 | masak++ | * patch submitted by zack++ for HTTP::Server::Simple
08:28 bsb left
TreyHarris buu: tons. ;-) 08:33
svnbot6 r13294 | trey++ | [t/unspecced/precompile.t]
r13294 | trey++ | Got rid of old .can syntax and replaced with an import.
buu TreyHarris: How horrifying.
TreyHarris buu: 'foo' stood in for 'the actual name of the subroutine', which wasn't relevant to my question
buu Well, yes, but the idea of having lots of subroutines named the same is horrifying. 08:34
TreyHarris pugs just dwimmed a little *too* much, and didn't go into an infinite recursion and instead called out to the same-named sub external to the would-be deep recursion. or so i thought. turned out that code branch was never getting exercised, so it was fine
lumi What other sub would you think would be called? 08:35
TreyHarris buu: only two. and i had an excuse: i was intentionally writing my own version of something to overlay it
but i called out to the other one without qualifying its name, so i should have recursed
recurses! foiled again again again again again... 08:37
?eval pi 08:40
evalbot_r13291 3141592653589793/1000000000000000
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svnbot6 r13295 | markstos++ | [t/builtins] 10:37
r13295 | markstos++ | All links to L<S16> have been expanded to be valid, there should be
r13295 | markstos++ | at least crude entries in S16 for everything they point to.
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svnbot6 r13296 | markstos++ | IO.pod 10:38
r13296 | markstos++ | just some POD correctness updates.
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svnbot6 r13297 | markstos++ | [t/var] 10:50
r13297 | markstos++ | merge two autovivificatoin tests
r13298 | audreyt++ | * yaml_harness.pl - Passing in options such as --concurrent 11:02
r13298 | audreyt++ | shouldn't cause tests under perl5/ to be run by smoke.
r13298 | audreyt++ | * Also restore the horrible, arbitrary, "first parallel only
r13298 | audreyt++ | gets 2/3 of the share" heuristic, as it really helps to
r13298 | audreyt++ | reduce smoke time...
markstos What's become of $, and $\ ? 11:06
gaal ?eval ~:($x) 11:07
11:07 evalbot_r13291 is now known as evalbot_r13297
evalbot_r13297 "CCall \"~\" CaptMeth \{c_invocant = VPure (SigSubSingle \{s_requiredPositionalCount = 1, s_requiredNames = \{}, s_positionalList = [MkParam \{p_variable = \"\$x\", p_types = [], p_constraints = [], p_unpacking = Nothing, p_default = <ParamDefault:Nothing>, p_label = \"x\", p_slots = \{}, p_hasAccess = AccessRO, p_isRef = False, p_isContext = False, p_isLazy = False}], s_namedSet = \{}, s_slurpyScalarList = [], s_slurpyArray = Nothing, s_slurpyHas 11:07
gaal this is wrong.
why does it enter asStr on the CCall ~?
I want it to be the same as: 11:09
?eval my $x = :($x); "$x"
evalbot_r13297 ":(\$x)"
gaal heh, that \ there is confusing. 11:10
svnbot6 r13299 | markstos++ | IO.pod: 11:17
r13299 | markstos++ | - port spec for 'print' from Perl 5.
r13299 | markstos++ | - move 'unfiled' listing for "say" in Functions.pod
r13299 | markstos++ | to be near 'print' in IO.pod
r13299 | markstos++ | - note a bit of the print spec is commented out:
r13299 | markstos++ | [ I don't know what's become of $, and $\. -markstos ]
r13299 | markstos++ | Fix that if you know what to do.
r13300 | markstos++ | IO.pod 11:19
r13300 | markstos++ | oops, "say" was the in wrong section.
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markstos @tell TimToady the spec doesn't seem to currently what a define what a container is, and it's not a concept I recall needing to know about in Perl 5. 11:42
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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svnbot6 r13301 | markstos++ | [t/var] 11:52
r13301 | markstos++ | Everything in here has at least one smart link now. (7 added)
r13301 | markstos++ | For a number of cases the specs felt murky or missing,
r13301 | markstos++ | and I left comments near the links in those cases.
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nothingmuch marmic: a container the thing inside which values go 11:59
e.g. an array element
or a variable
or a hash slot
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Limbic_Region audreyt is probably sleeping huh? 12:47
maybe not - not quite 9PM there 12:48
audreyt ping
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salty-horse does anyone mind if I change syn_index.html to utf-8? the gb2312 encoding chooses an ugly font for my browser 13:54
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gaal salty-horse: please go ahead. 14:35
salty-horse gaal, it's also in dos newline format: \r\n 14:38
kolibrie salty-horse: I think util/add-svn-props.sh takes care of newline formats 14:42
salty-horse ah :)
gaal salty-horse: sh util/add-svn-props.sh
yeah :)
(hey, kolibrie!)
kolibrie hey, gaal!
moose!
gaal right on! 14:43
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ruoso still braindamaged by TheDamian's talk 14:47
[particle] gaal is a l33t m0053 14:48
gaal ā•™l0lā•œ 14:50
svnbot6 r13302 | salty_horse++ | Validated XHTML markup, changed encoding to utf-8, set svn:eol-style
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rodi gaal: nice moose! w00t! 14:53
gaal audreyt: can you explain what's going on in ~:($x) ? I don't understand how we're finding ourselves in findSub... 14:55
14:59 integral is now known as notintegral
gaal that's derivative... 14:59
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gaal audreyt: okay, I understand it's from r12200. but I think it's doing the wrong thing :( 14:59
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gaal whoa! crazy evaluation strategy, too: 15:04
?eval sub stringy ($x) { "$x" } stringy nosuchmeth :(:$somesig) 15:05
15:05 evalbot_r13297 is now known as evalbot_r13301
evalbot_r13301 "CCall \"nosuchmeth\" CaptMeth \{c_invocant = VPure (SigSubSingle \{s_requiredPositionalCount = 0, s_requiredNames = \{\"somesig\"}, s_positionalList = [], s_namedSet = \{\"somesig\":=MkParam \{p_variable = \"\$somesig\", p_types = [], p_constraints = [], p_unpacking = Nothing, p_default = <ParamDefault:Nothing>, p_label = \"somesig\", p_slots = \{}, p_hasAccess = AccessRO, p_isRef = False, p_isContext = False, p_isLazy = False}}, s_slurpyScalarLi 15:05
gaal pugs has lazy evaluation :)
TimToady is it treating nosuchmeth as a post-declared listop? 15:10
lambdabot TimToady: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
gaal TimToady: there's special transition logic to stringify a method invocation on a newval, but it looks like the... ah, no, heh, the stringification had happened before entering stringy 15:12
let's make sure...
?eval sub stringy ($x) { "--$x--" } stringy nosuchmeth :(:$somesig)
evalbot_r13301 "--CCall \"nosuchmeth\" CaptMeth \{c_invocant = VPure (SigSubSingle \{s_requiredPositionalCount = 0, s_requiredNames = \{\"somesig\"}, s_positionalList = [], s_namedSet = \{\"somesig\":=MkParam \{p_variable = \"\$somesig\", p_types = [], p_constraints = [], p_unpacking = Nothing, p_default = <ParamDefault:Nothing>, p_label = \"somesig\", p_slots = \{}, p_hasAccess = AccessRO, p_isRef = False, p_isContext = False, p_isLazy = False}}, s_slurpyScalar 15:13
gaal okay, that's a relief.
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TimToady MEGO xx * 15:14
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TimToady that sure looks like call-by-name to me. 15:21
shouldn't it attempt to call nosuchmeth before calling stringy? 15:22
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gaal TimToady: "calling" nosuchmeth is intercepted and reduced to the string 15:22
TimToady gotcha. 15:23
except, of course, it should parsefail at the end of the compunit, but we'll leave that go for now...
gaal apparently it's reduced and folded...?
I'm looking for a way to get ~ to dispatch correctly on newvals, because this is awkward: 15:24
?eval my $x = :($whee : @whoa = 42); $x 15:25
evalbot_r13301 \:($whee: @whoa)
lumi What's the \ doing there?
gaal stingification artefact
I think?
?eval my $x = :($whee : @whoa = 42); "$x"
evalbot_r13301 ":(\$whee: \@whoa)"
gaal yeah. 15:26
buggy one at that.
TimToady ELOWCAFFEINE. what is awkward about it?
lumi ?eval my $x = :($whee : @whoa = 42) 15:27
evalbot_r13301 \:($whee: @whoa)
gaal TimToady: in writing tests for pretty printing Signatures, I'd love to just say ~:($x)
but now I have to use a temp var
lumi ?eval "{:($x)}"
gaal because of that dispatch interception thing. I gotta find me an audrey 15:28
evalbot_r13301 ":(\$x)"
gaal $problem.audrey => fixed
TimToady ?eval ~:($x) 15:29
evalbot_r13301 "CCall \"~\" CaptMeth \{c_invocant = VPure (SigSubSingle \{s_requiredPositionalCount = 1, s_requiredNames = \{}, s_positionalList = [MkParam \{p_variable = \"\$x\", p_types = [], p_constraints = [], p_unpacking = Nothing, p_default = <ParamDefault:Nothing>, p_label = \"x\", p_slots = \{}, p_hasAccess = AccessRO, p_isRef = False, p_isContext = False, p_isLazy = False}], s_namedSet = \{}, s_slurpyScalarList = [], s_slurpyArray = Nothing, s_slurpyHas
gaal hm, maybe I'll go find me a falafel instead. bbiab :)
TimToady ?eval ~ :($x)
evalbot_r13301 "CCall \"~\" CaptMeth \{c_invocant = VPure (SigSubSingle \{s_requiredPositionalCount = 1, s_requiredNames = \{}, s_positionalList = [MkParam \{p_variable = \"\$x\", p_types = [], p_constraints = [], p_unpacking = Nothing, p_default = <ParamDefault:Nothing>, p_label = \"x\", p_slots = \{}, p_hasAccess = AccessRO, p_isRef = False, p_isContext = False, p_isLazy = False}], s_namedSet = \{}, s_slurpyScalarList = [], s_slurpyArray = Nothing, s_slurpyHas
lumi ?eval "" ~ :($x)
evalbot_r13301 ":(\$x)"
TimToady heh 15:30
gaal hey, that's not bad!
TimToady ?eval :($x).~
evalbot_r13301 Error: unexpected "~" expecting ".", operator name, qualified identifier, variable name, "...", "++", "--", array subscript, hash subscript or code subscript
TimToady still, unary ~ should be equiv 15:31
gaal 42.~
?eval 42.~
evalbot_r13301 Error: unexpected "~" expecting ".", operator name, qualified identifier, variable name, "...", "++", "--", array subscript, hash subscript or code subscript
TimToady ?eval 42.!
evalbot_r13301 Error: unexpected "!" expecting ".", operator name, qualified identifier, variable name, "...", "++", "--", array subscript, hash subscript or code subscript
lumi It's not an 'operator name'?
gaal well, it's not like that's the only problem with our current dispatcher...
lumi ?eval 42.prefix:<~> 15:32
evalbot_r13301 "42"
gaal lumi: yeah indeed. ruleOperatorName
falafel &
TimToady ?eval :($x).prefix:<~> 15:33
evalbot_r13301 "CCall \"~\" CaptMeth \{c_invocant = VPure (SigSubSingle \{s_requiredPositionalCount = 1, s_requiredNames = \{}, s_positionalList = [MkParam \{p_variable = \"\$x\", p_types = [], p_constraints = [], p_unpacking = Nothing, p_default = <ParamDefault:Nothing>, p_label = \"x\", p_slots = \{}, p_hasAccess = AccessRO, p_isRef = False, p_isContext = False, p_isLazy = False}], s_namedSet = \{}, s_slurpyScalarList = [], s_slurpyArray = Nothing, s_slurpyHas
lumi ?eval :($x).infix:<~>
evalbot_r13301 "CCall \"~\" CaptMeth \{c_invocant = VPure (SigSubSingle \{s_requiredPositionalCount = 1, s_requiredNames = \{}, s_positionalList = [MkParam \{p_variable = \"\$x\", p_types = [], p_constraints = [], p_unpacking = Nothing, p_default = <ParamDefault:Nothing>, p_label = \"x\", p_slots = \{}, p_hasAccess = AccessRO, p_isRef = False, p_isContext = False, p_isLazy = False}], s_namedSet = \{}, s_slurpyScalarList = [], s_slurpyArray = Nothing, s_slurpyHas
lumi ?eval prefix:<~>(:($x)) 15:34
evalbot_r13301 "CCall \"~\" CaptMeth \{c_invocant = VPure (SigSubSingle \{s_requiredPositionalCount = 1, s_requiredNames = \{}, s_positionalList = [MkParam \{p_variable = \"\$x\", p_types = [], p_constraints = [], p_unpacking = Nothing, p_default = <ParamDefault:Nothing>, p_label = \"x\", p_slots = \{}, p_hasAccess = AccessRO, p_isRef = False, p_isContext = False, p_isLazy = False}], s_namedSet = \{}, s_slurpyScalarList = [], s_slurpyArray = Nothing, s_slurpyHas
lumi I'm confused then. Why are the string interpolation and ""~ working? 15:35
gaal ICoercible :)
asStr in newVal land
I'm not here
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peteso is there a reason why the 'is' attrib list can't be comma separated? 15:57
svnbot6 r13303 | rodi++ | Added support for numbered rules from $ca objects, set defaults, changed 15:59
r13303 | rodi++ | examples to use new interfaces.
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ajs_ No matter how I run pugscc, I get "pugs: user error (*** *** Undeclared variable: "@*CHECK"" 16:03
Am I doing something wrong?
TreyHarris ajs_: pugscc hasn't been touched except in global search-n-replace changes in a year. are you sure it works? 16:09
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ajs_ TreyHarris: Am sure it doesn't ;-) 16:25
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TimToady .-e is now spelled .'-e' 16:46
and .'WHERE' is not a meta call.
PerlJam TimToady: I just saw the patch on p6l. That's infinitely better than the other suggestions people came up with (especially the ones involving underscores ;-) 16:47
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TimToady I don't know if it's Inf better, but it's definitely * better. 16:48
PerlJam It's "doh! why didn't I think of that?" better at any rate.
TimToady yeah, it's kinda been staring us in the face for years. 16:49
and in parrot the qoutes are mandatory. :) 16:50
s/ou/uo/
[particle] well, they're mandatory if you don't want name conflicts :) 16:53
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svnbot6 r13304 | putter++ | xx-uncategorized/use_import_not_found.t - Created. 17:06
r13304 | putter++ | The line class C {} sub f() {C.new()} currently makes subsequent use()s fail with *** No compatible subroutine found: "&Mumble::import".
r13304 | putter++ | The workaround is simply to put the use()s first.
r13305 | putter++ | gen_prelude.pl - Added -Iblib6/lib to the ./pugs command which creates the precompiled prelude. So Prelude.pm can now use() modules there. 17:13
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svnbot6 r13306 | fglock++ | v6 - cpan version 0.015 17:49
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ajs_ is "./pugs -CPIR -e 0" supposed to work? 18:02
TreyHarris TimToady: how do you indirectly call the meta $obj.WHERE, given $obj and $meth = "WHERE"? $obj."^$meth"? 18:06
$obj.^"$meth"? 18:08
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svnbot6 r13307 | putter++ | t/xx-uncategorized/pi_internals.t - Created. 18:16
r13307 | putter++ | New test for Pugs::Internals::pi in Prim.hs, broken by r13255's renaming of pi from "pi" to "Pugs::Internals::pi".
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putter Sigh. Even with pugs, I should take that extra couple of minutes to get change log entries *right*. :/ 18:17
The line class C {} sub f() {C.new()} currently makes subsequent use()s fail with *** No compatible subroutine found: "&Mumble::import" ... *during precompilation*. 18:18
TreyHarris ?eval Pugs::Internals::pi() 18:19
evalbot_r13301 Code::Exp.new()
TreyHarris ?eval pi
evalbot_r13301 3141592653589793/1000000000000000
TreyHarris ?eval +Pugs::Internals::pi()
evalbot_r13301 Error: Cannot cast from VObject (MkObject {objType = (mkType "Code::Exp"), objAttrs = <StrMap 0xb7a12040>, objOpaque = Just <<Pugs.AST.Internals.Exp>>, objId = MkObjectId {unObjectId = 1}}) to Double (VNum)
TreyHarris putter: ah, that's a failing test. 18:20
what is it supposed to do? calculate pi based on the context in which it is caused?
s/caused/called/
putter Simply renaming the Prim.hs pi broke it. The correct pi you now see is a literal in Prelude.pm. 18:24
'putter <- "take more time to write clear commits"'++ TreyHarris__ 18:25
err, TreyHarris++
I was quite surprised. But given that exprs are currently in flux, I thought dealing with it now was a... yak too far. 18:26
TreyHarris oooh, i hate it when i do a find | grep and forget to do 'xargs grep' 18:54
putter :)
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TreyHarris ?eval sub foo() { 1 }; sub foo() { 2 }; say foo() 19:02
evalbot_r13301 OUTPUT[2 ] Bool::True
gaal ap (++) "take more time to write clear commits" >>= \putter -> TreyHarris 19:06
hm that doesn't have quite the same ring to it
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svnbot6 r13308 | putter++ | Created ext/Math-Basic, defining Math::Basic, per S29. 19:11
r13308 | putter++ | Math::Basic is currently very simple (just a definition of pi).
r13308 | putter++ | My intent is to shortly try to use it from Prelude.pm, without breaking pugs.
r13308 | putter++ | There is related work in misc/Perl-MetaModel/ and misc/S29_round*, which can
r13308 | putter++ | be afterward integrated as stability permits.
lumi gaal: What does that mean? 19:13
gaal nothing at all 19:15
lumi Indeed
TimToady TreyHarris: it's not high on my priority list to support indirect macros, but since macros can be called as functions, prefix:{$huh} probably works. 19:16
TreyHarris TimToady: was just curious, given that several of us have been working on meta-meta-programming issues (like markstos) 19:17
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putter ;) 19:29
is there currently a convention for where/how to dump failing tests? it was pugsbugs, with failing testness implied. xx-uncategorized/ with fail or bug in the test name??? ideas?
or is the thrust to get all these tests integrated with the suite, and pay the integration cost up front, which somewhat discourages test creation, but saves the pain of integrating later. 19:30
t/nag_audreyt_and_gaal/... ;-)
gaal: ping?
actually, anyone with build system experience: ping?
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putter idea: have a concept of "key modules to be make'ed early". Currently, if you just make, and then use Test;, it doesn't work because Test hasn't been made yet. And as Prelude comes to depend on other modules, it would be nice if they could just be added to a "make early" list, rather than being kludged. 19:58
svnbot6 r13309 | putter++ | Revert r13305, which added -Iblib6/lib to prelude precompilation. 20:05
r13309 | putter++ | In a clean build, blib6/lib isn't populated soon enough to help.
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TreyHarris putter: are you using svn or svk? 20:24
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TreyHarris anyone here have good javascript clue who might be able to help me diagnose a script that runs perfectly under firefox but doesn't do anything at all under safari? 20:26
putter svn :/
20:26 ntgrl is now known as integral
svnbot6 r13310 | putter++ | This is a first try at having Prelude.pm use an external module, namely Math::Basic. 20:26
r13310 | putter++ | If this breaks some aspect of the build, simply revert this change.
r13310 | putter++ | [Prelude.pm]
r13310 | putter++ | Now says use Math::Basic :GLOBAL<pi>;. The :GLOBAL doesn't work, so Prelude still has a reflector sub pi, with all the "is builtin" etc doodads.
r13310 | putter++ | [config-template.yml]
r13310 | putter++ | Math/Basic.pm has been added to precompile_modules.
r13310 | putter++ | [gen_prelude.pl]
r13310 | putter++ | In order to find Math::Basic when precompiling Prelude.pm, we need an explicit -Iext/Math-Basic/lib. Which seems unfortunate. But -Iblib6/lib can't be used because it is not populated soon enough.
TreyHarris i've got that "smoke Perl 6 implementor's view" working under firefox, but i can't figure out how to make it work on safari
putter implementer's view? 20:27
TreyHarris putter: well, i was going to suggest holding off until audreyt makes the 6.2.13 release, this sounds like something that could impede that. and if you had svk, making a local branch to look at how to solve it 20:28
putter: got firefox?
putter re release, didn't realize one was pending. hmm. in the past the policy has been go for it anyway, T-1day or before. but perhaps that's changed? 20:29
got firefox
TreyHarris putter: ah. ok
putter my impression was the observation was the current smoke colors were too implementer, rather than user, oriented. with known not to be working being green. no? 20:30
or am I confused?
TreyHarris putter: right. so look at www.ibiblio.org/harris/smoke.new.html to see what i'm talking about. it's a small subset of a smoke.html i produced on tuesday. scroll down to the bottom, ideally so you can see the button and all the tests 20:31
lambdabot Title: TAP Matrix - Tue Sep 12 00:37:56 2006 GMT
TreyHarris then click the button
putter button? 20:32
svnbot6 r13311 | zgh++ | duplicate test in t/statements/modifiers/for.t, changed slightly so the two tests are no longer identical
putter ah, above the test grid
TreyHarris yeah
putter: seem reasonable? 20:34
putter JS error,
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TreyHarris putter: oh, no. it works in my firefox 20:35
bleh
putter missing formal parameter, line 110, little green arrow is pointing at the second arg of change_style_for_class (namely, class).
I've an old fox, perhaps that's it. 20:36
TreyHarris well, a plain old smoke should be giving you the same errors
putter checking...
TreyHarris that's my problem here with diagnosing the safari, it's only complaining about javascript that i didn't touch
putter no error from recent smoke on server 20:38
TreyHarris hm
putter no sign of broken function either. sure change_style_for_class isn't yours? 20:39
TreyHarris oh, the errors i'm seeing are at 36, 37, and 105x2... all before my changes 20:40
lemme look
yeah, the smoke.html i generated this morning (the standard one unmodified) has broken CSS at those lines too
putter k 20:42
svnbot6 r13312 | putter++ | Typo. The test is of a Hash, not an Array. 21:02
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putter @tell audreyt Is there a vision for how Prelude.pm is going to evolve? It seems there is no way to define globals but "is builtin", which seems to have the unfortunate sideeffects of ripping things out of their defining module, and making multis non-multi. 21:26
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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svnbot6 r13313 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Rule - changed an accessor call 21:55
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dduncan TreyHarris or others, from backlogging this channel it looks like you just said there will be a Pugs 6.2.13 release coming up soon (rather than the next release being 6.28.0 ... is that true or are you just guessing? 22:00
if is is true, does anyone know the ETA for 6.2.13? ... I like to know so I can clean up some of my own parts in time 22:01
putter no idea, sorry 22:05
I'm trying to find a way to set a global in the Prelude while not unmulti-ing multis, and ideally allowing ::= to work. 22:07
So, possible mechanisms for creating a global include
* ::* and GLOBAL:: as prefixes on the name,
TreyHarris dduncan: putter was saying she was shooting for a release this weekend
s/putter/audreyt/ 22:08
putter GLOBAL::<foo> symbol table,
TreyHarris lol
dduncan okay, if you're sure about that, I'll see to getting to my cleanup work now then ...
putter Prelude's "is builtin",
TreyHarris audreyt: i'm sure she said that. i'm not sure that it's still true, as i last heard her say it late last week.
bleh
putter and ... is there anything else?
dduncan I suggest updating the #perl6 header to mention it
TreyHarris s/audreyt/dduncan
putter * prefix works, GLOBAL anything doesnt. 22:09
Both * prefix and "is builtin" demulti multis.
our &*foo ::= &bar; doesnt actually create a global.
Any ideas on possible paths/workarounds I've missed? 22:10
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svnbot6 r13314 | putter++ | Created some failing Prelude.pm tests. 22:35
r13314 | putter++ | - our &*f ::= &g; doesn't actually create a global.
r13314 | putter++ | - global multis behave non-multi, disappearing upon another declaration.
r13314 | putter++ | Created a new prelude_test.t, and added some helper "prelude_test*" code to Prelude.pm.
r13315 | putter++ | Remove a bit of test code which inadvertently escaped in r13314.
putter good night & 22:38
TimToady putter: my brain is still in sideways, but I think we're moving toward "is export" to allow thing to be both methods and global exports. 22:39
when you export a method it turns the ':' into a ',' and pretends it's a multi.
so you can have method Array::push(@: *@) is export 22:40
ingy yay
TimToady and you also get multi push(@,*@) in the namespace exported to. 22:41
so all that remains is for * to import <push>
ingy just got done writing yet another p5 exporting base class.
TimToady it was audreyt's idea.
ingy although it gets a little better each time I do it ;)
TimToady audreyt++ xx *
though I guess that only evaluates once... 22:42
mugwump wait, won't that ... :)
ingy How to be Spiffy Without Anyone Noticing -- by Ingy dot Net 22:43
[particle] idly wonders how many exporters perl 6 will have
TimToady how 'bout audreyt += rand(*) then. :)
ingy hi mugwump
[particle] hey ingy, wanna present that at spug next month?
mugwump how's it going ingy?
ingy [particle]: I'd like to present the new YAML.pm when its done 22:44
the tpf grant sponsored thingy
so if that's next month, sure
TimToady th.ingy
mugwump aha! there's your answer
(to your keynote question)
TimToady eh?
[particle] ingy: great! 22:45
mugwump you asked who wanted to be thing
ingy mugwump: th.ingy.net
TimToady :-) xx *
ingy hmmm
looks like I am going to have to invent a 'th' web service 22:47
mugwump I guess leo must be lurch 22:48
ingy and for my next big project...
Totally::Hot
TimToady Titan::Hunk
Temp::Happy 22:49
Tri::Horned
araujo hi hi
ingy oh boy, what a can of worms... and I have to run away.
TimToady Talk::House 22:50
ingy Truly::HaveToRun &
TimToady Too::Hasty...
ingy Tim::Hokey & 22:51
[particle] HA!
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TimToady actually, I think exported methods have to turn : into ; rather than , 23:00
dduncan That's Him 23:02
er Thats::Him
There::Here 23:03
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TimToady changed my mind, exported methods probably shouldn't default to turning : into ; 23:17
but that means we should probably allow $self:; *@args to indicate that it should turn into ; instead of ,
or (; *@args) for implicit self
just working on S29 from the exported method angle... 23:18
But it also means that Math::Basic is bogus, and things like abs() really belong in Num 23:19
if we write them all as methods 23:20
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mugwump TimToady: did you ever see the traits-friendly num/real/float/rational/etc types from Haskell Venn diagram? 23:30
markstos I know this can be done easily with [*], but I was just playing with this function with does the same thing. However, the recursion seems to short circuit instead of unwinding properly:
mugwump roots around for it
markstos ?eval sub prod ($x,*@xs) { return $x unless @xs.elems; return $x * prod([,] @xs); } print prod(2,3,4);
evalbot_r13301 OUTPUT[4] Bool::True
markstos The expected result was 2 * 3 * 4 = 24 23:31
TimToady ?eval sub prod ($x,*@xs) { return $x unless @xs.elems; return $x * prod([,] @xs); } print prod(2,3.42); 23:32
evalbot_r13301 OUTPUT[2] Bool::True
TimToady ?eval sub prod ($x,*@xs) { return $x unless @xs.elems; return $x * prod([,] @xs); } print prod(2,3,42);
evalbot_r13301 OUTPUT[4] Bool::True
TimToady [,] @xs is turning into +@xs somehow
so it's passing the length 23:33
?eval sub prod ($x,*@xs) { return $x unless @xs.elems; return $x * prod([,] @xs); } print prod(2,3,42,582);
evalbot_r13301 OUTPUT[6] Bool::True
TimToady yes, 2 * 3 (the rest of the args)
markstos Because it's trying to cast an array into a scalar ($x) ?
It sounds like you agree it's a bug, though ? 23:34
TimToady yes
markstos Good. I'll stop trying to make it work, then, and consider adding a test for it.
Of course, the short cut works: 23:35
?eval sub prod (*@xs) { [*] @xs } print prod(2,3,4);
evalbot_r13301 OUTPUT[24] Bool::True
TimToady ?eval sub prod ($x,*@xs) { return $x unless @xs; return $x * prod([,] @xs); } print prod(2,3,4);
evalbot_r13301 OUTPUT[4] Bool::True
gnuvince Is there a place where I can read what's the perl6 plan? How v6.pm, pugs and parrot are part of the larger plan? 23:36
markstos $x is getting set to the array on the second pass. 23:37
gnuvince: there are multiple plans.
v6.pm and pugs are parallel projects 23:38
TimToady we're a bunch of ants all pulling the huge chunk of food toward the nest, on average.
markstos As I understand, pugs can use parrot, but doesn't have to depend on it.
TimToady the basic answer is, right here is where you can read about it. :) 23:39
gnuvince markstos: I thought v6.pm was Perl6 in Perl5 and pugs Perl6 in Haskell
markstos gnuvince: it's a volunteer effort optimized for fun, so the plan is somewhat organic.
gnuvince: correct. 23:40
23:40 [particle] left
markstos biab 23:40
gnuvince and the official Perl6? Will it be built upon these two?
Or written from scratch in Parrot's language? 23:41
TimToady official Perl 6 is anything that passes the test suite.
23:41 weinig is now known as weinig|bbl
obra timtoady++ 23:41
TimToady regardless of what it's built on.
markstos right. There can be more than one.
TimToady or with
that's why pugs has been making heroic efforts lately to cut out all the platform dependencies from the test suite. 23:42
peteso aren't there some self-hosting goals as well with the compiler?
TimToady but both v6 and parrot are aiming to cover the same tests 23:43
yes, that is also a goal
so only the backends need be platform dependent
obra TimToady: is there a right place to canonize that comment about officialness in the synopses? 23:44
peteso nice
gnuvince ok
Well I tell you, I can hardly wait for Perl 6.
TimToady S01 would probably be the right place.
Impatience is good
gnuvince Isn't that one of the three programmer qualities? 23:45
I can remember laziness and hubriss
hubris
TimToady Would you like to help?
peteso is the habit of appending the unary increment operator to someones name like applauding them?
obra peteso: yes. there's a karma bot around here somewhere.
karma timtoady?
jabbot obra: timtoady? has neutral karma
obra karma timtoady 23:46
jabbot obra: timtoady has karma of 27
gnuvince TimToady: I was given svn commit access to Pugs by audreyt recently. However I am very new to Perl in general. I'm trying to wrap my head around Perl 5, and once I'm comfortable, I'll probably start trying to commit tests for Perl 6.
TimToady but we mostly ignore it...
that's cool.
one of the most important pieces of feedback we can get right now is how it all sits with newcomers.
if you see something that is obviously screwball, please say so. 23:47
gnuvince Well I tell you, the new-style objects make more sense to me.
peteso obra: presumably then would -- decrement? even if discouraging
gnuvince Of course, I'm coming from a Smalltalk/Ruby/Python background, so that's to be expected.
TimToady though, oddly, the P5 object model was pretty much borrowed from Python... 23:48
obra peteso: yes.
peteso obra: thanks for the clarification 23:49
obra++
gnuvince Perl 6 is interesting because it retains the qualities that make Perl 5 good for one-off scripts, but improves (in my opinion) for the larger software
obra I've really enjoyed building largeish systems in perl5. But I'm an odd one 23:52
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clkao i enjoyed, for only a while 23:53
TimToady gnuvince: that's definitely been one of our basic goals. 23:54
gnuvince With a bit of luck, I'll get the job at Ubisoft for which I applied yeterday. They need a QA programmer and the most used languages for the job will be Perl and Python. Hopefully I can pick up more experience with Perl ;) 23:58
rodi Speaking of audreyt, I wrote an ode to her and Pugs: use.perl.org/~rodi/journal/30985 23:59
lambdabot Title: Journal of rodi (7124)

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