svn switch --relocate svn.openfoundry.org/pugs svn.pugscode.org/pugs/ | run.pugscode.org | spec.pugscode.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com
Set by avar on 16 November 2006.
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svnbot6 r15153 | kudra++ | Placeholder 02:00
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svnbot6 r15154 | putter++ | misc/pX/Common/yet_another_rules_engine/ - created. See README. Help welcome. 07:03
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luqui @pl \eq -> eq f eq 07:53
lambdabot join ($ f)
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DebolazX sees en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...=100787152 16:09
lambdabot tinyurl.com/2htmfr
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elmex rafl: are you there? 16:31
Limbic_Region ?seen rafl 16:33
lambdabot rafl is in #perl6 and #haskell. I don't know when rafl last spoke.
Limbic_Region @seen rafl
lambdabot rafl is in #perl6 and #haskell. I don't know when rafl last spoke.
elmex hm, jabber.org is unfortunately down :(
Limbic_Region .seen rafl
ah
rafl elmex: I am. 16:34
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elmex rafl: yay, is jabber.org dead for you too? well.. whatever, i wanted to send the patch for Net::SSLeay with the test 16:35
rafl: want it via smtp or http? 16:36
Limbic_Region <rafl> Will Perl 6 have something like perl5's as.pm? 16:37
elmex wtf.?
Limbic_Region wholly fubar'd client
wow, the last time rafl spoke in the channel (prior to today) was 2006-12-11 saying that
elmex thats not soo long ago 16:38
rafl elmex: Yes, it was.
elmex: http 16:39
Limbic_Region shuts up for fear of flooding or sounding incoherent or both
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rafl Limbic_Region: I didn't have much time and motivation for Perl 6 related things in the past months. 16:39
TimToady can't do anything about the time, but what motivates you? 16:41
elmex rafl: will you be at the GPWS ?
rafl TimToady: My motivation is mostly fun. I was somewhat depressed in the past months and lost track on the current development. After that I didn't want to catch up because lots of things happened and there were other fun projects for me to do. 16:45
TimToady: I haven't lost the interest, though. But I fear there will be lots of boring stuff to do before I can actually get involved again.
elmex: Yes.
elmex nice, i will be too 16:46
Limbic_Region is mostly interested in pmichaud's work on perl6 -> parrot compiler. It currently is only failing 4 of the 27 sanity tests 16:47
rafl elmex: Were will you sleep?
Limbic_Region once all sanity tests are passing, the entire perl 6 test suite (pugs) minus a handful of implementation specific tests will be opened up
elmex rafl: hm, in a hotel, i don't know which. 16:49
Limbic_Region then there will be at least 2 HLL (tcl being the other) driving parrot development
rafl Limbic_Region: That's interesting, indeed.
Limbic_Region then there will be at least 2 HLL (tcl being the other) driving parrot development
grrrr
elmex rafl: well, btw. you've got a privmsg :) 16:50
rafl I have writing some parrot glue around libxmmsclient (the xmms2 client library) on my TODO. That'll probably be fun as well :-)
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elmex hehe 16:51
Limbic_Region is also very much interested in the return of audreyt++
[particle] Limbic_Region: it will also open the doors to hll interoperability
we can implement C<use tcl:what::ever>
Limbic_Region [particle] - yeah, also good stuff but there is nothing like failing tests to motivate development 16:52
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Limbic_Region oh, and all of the work from fglock++ is interesting too 16:57
TimToady - what would be S14 is now covered under S10-S13 ? 16:59
TimToady what's chapter 14 about? 17:00
Limbic_Region sorry - tied variables
TimToady yes, those are now implementation types 17:01
my %hash is MyStrangeHash;
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TimToady and variable are assumed to be untieable unless declared tieable in some way 17:02
s//s/
well, s:13th/<null>/s/ I mean 17:03
Limbic_Region also, where does S26 (POD) live - I thought Damian released it already?
TimToady a recent copy of almost any spec can be found in docs/Perl6/Spec 17:04
not sure if there's a more official place for it yet
Limbic_Region dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html 17:05
lambdabot Title: Synopses - perl6
Limbic_Region I thought that officially released synopses lived there and works in progress were in the pugs repo 17:06
TimToady Well, Functions is "official" but still lives in pugs 17:07
dev.perl.org specs are slightly more frozen, or at least have a smaller set of people that can dicker with 'em
but there's no concept of "officially released" as in completely frozen 17:08
some of them are in a hard slush though.
Limbic_Region ok, so on dev.perl.org is S1 through S6, S9 through S13 where Pugs repo has S16, S17, S22, S26, and S29 17:09
S7 (formats) and S8 (references) are obsolete
TimToady at some point I'll probably throw an Offical Grammar out there into some S or other. Last night I finished the "top" of the sandwich. 17:11
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Cafe_ hi all 17:12
TimToady howdy
what are your interests?
Cafe_ will perl6 have a compiler? 17:13
Limbic_Region will there be a need for S15 (unicode), S18 (compiling), S19 (command line interface), S20 (debugger), S21 (internals and externals), S23 (security), S24 (common practices), S25 (portable perl), S27(perl culture), S28(special names), S30 (standard perl library), S31 (pragmatic modules), S32 (standard modules), S33 (diagnostic messages)?
TimToady Cafe_: it will have lots of compilers
[particle] (synopses) it may be nice to have a note saying which synopses are intentionally left blank, and which have not yet been written 17:14
Cafe_ i mean, today with perl5 we cant generate working executables like C programming, right?
[particle] evolving vs deprecated
xinming Cafe_: yes.
Cafe_ will it be like C programming? 17:15
xinming Cafe_: No. Perl 6 will have a compiler.
Cafe_ (sorry the bad english, i'm not native english speaker)
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xinming Cafe_: We just compile perl 6 to parrot or to javascript. :-) 17:15
Cafe_: Me neither.
[particle] Cafe_: at least one implementation of perl 6 will allow you to compile to bytecode, and use a virtual machine (parrot) similar to how java works 17:16
Limbic_Region [particle] - WRT the Synopses intentionally left blank - exactly what I was getting at
xinming Cafe_: And even... Better than java. :-P
TimToady I expect fglock will eventually make it compile to C code. 17:17
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[particle] expects that too 17:17
xinming TimToady: Do you mean It compile to pasm, and then, compile pasm to C? Or, Just compile perl 6 to C? 17:18
TimToady Limbic_Region: I will >>todo that
xinming Compile perl 6 to c directly.
Cafe_ ok, but i will need to install the VM anyway, right?
Limbic_Region [particle] - cause from a pure numbers perspective, it looks like 16/33 aren't written yet 17:19
[particle] Cafe_: yes, with parrot, unless an exe is created which contains the vm and the bytecode
TimToady I suspect fglock would do direct to C, but of course there would have to be library support that might well be from parrot (or...)
xinming Cafe_: Don't worry about vm. It's even possible to compile perl 6 to perl 5.
Cafe_ my willing is to make an reliable, independent exe 17:20
[particle] s/willing/desire/
Gothmog_ If it will be possible to compile it to C, you might need the VM to compile it, but you won't need it to execute it.
Cafe_ thanks!! ;)
you mean convert the perl code to C code, and then use gcc to compile the C code? 17:21
Limbic_Region heh, wouldn't it be something if perl 5 compiled to perl 6 which is compiled to perl 5 outperforms the original?
TimToady - not looking to make work for you but it is something I have been wondering about
[particle] ...talk about a pony! 17:22
xinming Cafe_: possibly... If someone did something amazing. which compile perl 6 to C directly. Then, I'll think If we can write a OS using dynamic language. :-P 17:23
[particle] Cafe_: there is a perl 5 module called PAR which let's you compile once, distribute, and run on machines without perl installed
Cafe_: i expect perl 6 will have *at least* that functionality, too, and maybe more
Cafe_ i have tried PAR and others alike 17:24
TimToady Limbic_Region: feather.perl6.nl/syn/ is a more up-to-date snapshot of the state of the synopses.
lambdabot Title: Official Perl 6 Documentation
Cafe_ but only worked with simple codes
Limbic_Region TimToady - except that the pugs repo has S17 and S22 which isn't reflected there 17:26
TimToady Limbic_Region: yes, but that html page can be changed by anyone with pugs commit; see note at the bottom of the page. Arguably that's why it's more up-to-date than the other page. 17:36
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Cafe_ when will we be using perl6??? 17:48
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TimToady Cafe_: using it for what? I've already used it at work... 17:53
pugs already implements a large portion of the language 17:54
and it's quite usable, though not terribly fast
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TimToady Cafe_: would you like to participate in development? 18:15
if so, ask here and someone will send you a pugs commit bit 18:17
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TimToady biab & 18:20
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Cafe_ man, i dont think i can contribuite with my perl skills 18:23
but i'll be happy to help on other ways 18:24
lumi You can contribute just by writing a test, or reading the documentation and finding places where it's fuzzy
Want a commit bit?
PerlJam Cafe_: There are lots of opportunities to contribute even if you don't know perl (5 or 6), haskell, etc. 18:25
Cafe_ we will discuss it in a minute 18:27
i'm just finishing some lines of code
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gaal nothingmuch++ # smoke test modules fixed 18:44
everyone who's been getting errors, please reinstall Task::Smoke
nothingmuch err, wait for CPAN
gaal {sleep 7200 ; !! } 18:45
nothingmuch goddamn hippies 18:49
i want my BSG! why can't people be better seeders? *sniff*
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gaal they want to protect you from the rapidly declining to pathetic levels series. 18:50
nothingmuch it's bad? 18:53
now you took the fun out of it
lumi It starts out good
gaal then gets bad 18:54
a devil of a series
lumi True 18:55
Meanwhile, would changing Pugs/Prim.hs, line 341 from "retEmpty" to something like "return v" make it comply with the new en passant spec? 18:56
gaal without looking, looks promising. :-) 18:57
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lumi And, does an en passant take test belong in t/statements/gather.t? (probably not) 19:04
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gaal it belongs somewhere... 19:22
heh i wonder whether should update my ghetto Perl6::Gather 19:23
svnbot6 r15155 | lwall++ | Add more info on missing chapters. 19:26
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gaal TimToady: the Syn example has "take $_", but doesn't "take" default to taking the topic? 19:31
ugh. i don't know how to express the p5 version of take's prototype. 19:33
"take 42, 45": what's taken? 19:34
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Juerd gaal: IIRC, there is no $_ defaulting anymore, in arguments. 19:38
gaal: So .take
I expect take 42, 45 to take both.
i.e. take LIST
gaal well, isn't that now dependent on whether the take is en passant? 19:39
(see recent Syn commit) 19:40
Juerd What is en passant?
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allbery_b "in passing", in this case meaning it returns what it's passed
Juerd Don't know. No tuits for following commits anymore
allbery_b and "takes" as a side effect to that
gaal what I don't understand is the comment about the take happening in void context, unless it's an en passant assignment 19:41
what would it mean for the take to be in void context?
i mean, does this affect the taken values in any way?
allbery_b void context means any value returned will be discarded 19:42
this is significant mainly because the trivial gather ... {take ...} would otherwise return the last thing taken
as the result of the gather
which is probably not intended
hm, phrased poorly, since obviously that cannot happen) 19:43
gaal how so? gather returns the gathered list.
gather ..... { $x = { 42; take 7; } }
what's $x?
(heh, should have said "take 5") 19:44
allbery_b suppose you could say that it's being pedantic about what is going on exactly: a void context is one in which any expression will be ignored aside from side effects, the inside of a gather is a void context (so you know any finall value will be ignored, only the effect of a take is important)
and in that case, the result is the result of take because it's the last thing in the block, no?
i.e. $x == 7
gaal okay, so what's the meaning of the take happening in void context? 19:45
allbery_b in gather ... { <- right after that open brace is void context
meaning no value is expected, also meaning take's context does not affect scalar vs. list (I think)
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gaal my Q is not about the gather at all, it's in about the take 19:45
allbery_b but mostly I think it's being pedantic
gaal: take is only meaningful within a gather, no? 19:46
gaal sure, sure
allbery_b they go together, the affect each other in particular ways, "I don't care abouut the gather:" == "tell me something meaningless"
gaal but why is the context of take important? surely the context in which take's arguments are reduced is not void!
allbery_b fine. meaningless answer: "it doesn;t matter" 19:47
gaal thank you.
allbery_b it's also wrong, I suspect, bhut at the level you're insisting on, there is no right answer
gaal in that case, the right answer is not to mention the context of take in the spec. 19:48
allbery_b my strong suspicion is that the void context means take does not try to enforce any kind of scalar/list "shape" on what you pass it or what passes through it
gaal now, is "take;" an error? simply a dispatch failure?
so, can "@x = take EXPR;" gather something different from "$x = take EXPR"? 19:49
allbery_b that is indeed the question
gaal because in that case, I don't understand how to express take's Signature in Perl
allbery_b and it's why context is important. if gather did not explicitly supply null context then the assumed context would be thatr in which the gather exists 19:50
gaal since gather gather lists, I was under the impression its, uh, takands should be evaluated in list context always.
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lumi In Pugs there's currently an op0 "take", I saw 19:50
gaal s:2nd/gather/gathers/ 19:51
allbery_b you might want to bounce that one off @Larry
gaal yup, hoping they'll remoose here
lumi @a = gather { $x = take f() } # What context does f return in? 19:53
lambdabot Maybe you meant: activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask . v
lumi Or is that what you were just discussing?
Thanks \b
allbery_b lumi: that's the question
absent the $x it has no imposed context. this makes me think that $x is intended to provide context
not sure if that was actually the intent\
lumi Ah 19:54
gaal which is crazy to express
and, I think, impossible to implement in p5
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lumi So: @a = gather { $: take f() } # same as take $: f() 19:54
To use the syntax of the week
allbery_b hm? p5 can express it, I think 19:55
gaal wouldn't it be nice if p5 prototpyes had some autothunking feature, like sub take (&) { if wantarray...}
allbery_b if you mean prototypes, that should be the behavior of @
whereas \@ forces list and provides a listref
(I think. if not, well, this is why p5 protos suck and should be avoided :) 19:56
gaal in this case they can't be, if I want to allow these to look like builtins and not require "sub" and parens.
lumi autothunking, as in lazifying?
gaal yeah
not to be evaluated at call time, but by take according to its wantarray 19:57
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gaal so, $x = take 1,2 would gather [1,2], wheras @x = or no en passant would do the usual flattening ...1, 2...? 19:58
ok p6-lling. 19:59
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svnbot6 r15156 | lwall++ | formatting tweaks to syn index. 21:54
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wolverian anyterm.org/ -- webirc replacement, perhaps 22:05
lambdabot Title: Anyterm - Introduction
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