svn switch --relocate svn.openfoundry.org/pugs svn.pugscode.org/pugs/ | run.pugscode.org | spec.pugscode.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com
Set by avar on 16 November 2006.
svnbot6 r15178 | putter++ | yet_another_regex_engine/OPP.pl - created. Yet another operator precedence parser. A first, rough, non-running draft. See notes at top of file. 00:13
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putter end of day for me 00:15
TimToady night
moritz the package is called libghc6-network-dev (probably)
night ;)
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putter tene: re current state of p6 rules in pugs, looking at m19s28.vlinux.de/cgi-bin/pugs-smokeserv.pl? (specifically the recent liniux repository snapshot second ">>", under t/regex/ , where both dark green and red means failed), I'd say "a great deal not working". 00:21
lambdabot Title: Pugs Smoke Reports
putter and "but some is". 00:22
good night all &
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svnbot6 r15179 | moritz++ | mentioned build depenency on haskell-network aka libghc-network-dev in 00:32
r15179 | moritz++ | PROBLEMS file
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PartclCoke audreyt: hello. 01:09
audreyt PartclCoke: greetings.
PartclCoke wonders where he can get a lambdabot for #parrot. 01:11
allbery_b @ask dons for it?
PartclCoke wonders if he's still a meta-committer in new pugs land. 01:12
audreyt PartclCoke: sure, you still are. invite.pugscode.org/
lambdabot Title: Login
PartclCoke says, "Freaky." 01:13
allbery_b: looks like "@ask" means something special?
allbery_b it's a lambdabot command 01:14
@help ask
lambdabot ask <nick> <message>. When <nick> shows activity, ask them <message>.
allbery_b dons is the keeper of lambdabot
PartclCoke @ask dons "Any chance we could get a lambdabot on #parrot on irc.perl.org? thanks -Coke 01:15
lambdabot Consider it noted.
PartclCoke @ask partclCoke huh?
lambdabot Consider it noted.
PartclCoke what?
allbery_b you could build your own but the source is in an odd state currently
partclCoke what?
lambdabot partclCoke: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
allbery_b yeh, it's cae-dependent
so it told you it recorded the query, next tme dons pops up on IRC he'll get informed like you did 01:17
he's in .au so the time shifting capability is rather useful :)
partclCoke mmm. takes care of one of the worst limitations of irc. =-) 01:18
audreyt errands bbl & 01:23
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agentzh oh, smartlinks.pl is misbehaving on feather... 02:25
i'm getting the error "invalid top directory at /usr/share/perl/5.8/File/Find.pm line 592." 02:26
i think i'd better look into the recent commits to smartlinks.pl :) 02:27
err, for those who don't know. one group of tests can be linked to multiple places in the spec by putting the links successively. 02:30
so it's already supported n-to-m correspondance for months. 02:31
not sure if i have made it explicit in smartlinks.pl's POD...looking now...
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agentzh @tell szabgab please recheck your recent commits to smartlinks.pl because i'm getting error report from feather's cron. thank you :) 02:48
lambdabot Consider it noted.
agentzh the synopses on feather are no longer updated automatically :/ 02:50
"This page was generated at 2007-02-03 10:01:14 GMT"
@tell szabgab i think it's r15169 that has introduced the problem :) 02:53
lambdabot Consider it noted.
agentzh no svn usable on my machine, so i can't fix it myself...windows virus-- :( 02:55
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agentzh looking forward to my shiney new ubuntu box :) 02:57
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dduncan amen 03:06
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svnbot6 r15180 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl] 03:24
r15180 | agentz++ | Fixed a bug in the --dir support.
r15180 | agentz++ | smartlinks.pl should work again on feather++ :)
r15181 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl] 03:27
r15181 | agentz++ | added comments on smartlinks.pl's m-to-n correspondance linking support to POD.
agentzh @tell szabgab the bug is now fixed in r15180. never mind. :) thanks to feather++ and Juerd++ 03:28
lambdabot Consider it noted.
agentzh dduncan: is there a web browser on feather? 03:36
bye & 03:39
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lrizo hi 03:54
any can help me?
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lrizo hi 03:58
jrockway what's your question? 04:00
lrizo i whould like to make a echo with udp 04:01
but perl can not generate my udp packets
jrockway perl6? 04:02
lrizo not, perl 2.2
partclCoke ... 2.2!? 04:03
this channel is for talk about perl6, but your version of perl intrigues me.
jrockway i'm equally confused :) 04:04
the production version of perl is perl 5.8.8
lrizo excuseme 04:05
im confused too :(, is perl 5.8
partclCoke oh, that's far less interesting. =-)
lrizo jejej 04:06
jrockway you should ask on plain-old #perl, then
lrizo are you developer of perl 6?
yes i will ask in a old perl room
partclCoke I think most of the people here have committed something to one of the... 3 version of perl6, ja.
allbery_b ths whole channel is perl6 developer folks
partclCoke Try Net::UDP, too.
allbery_b some of whom may not do perl5 04:07
lrizo ok
jrockway there's some other UDP server whose name I can't remember...
jrockway searches a bit
lrizo based on you experencies, can i make a UDP ECHO on perl 6? 04:08
allbery_b just as a wild uess, if your server is running on a port < 1024, it must be run as root (OS restriction)
jrockway i'm thinking of Net::Server with Net::Server::Proto::UDP
docs are at search.cpan.org/~rhandom/Net-Server-0.95/
lambdabot Title: Paul T. Seamons / Net-Server-0.95 - search.cpan.org
lrizo thanks 04:10
let me see the reference
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svnbot6 r15182 | lwall++ | first whack at getting ops into the standard grammar 07:02
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fglock hi 11:29
lambdabot fglock: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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fglock putter: re help: the core of kp6 is done - I'm now starting bugfixing, optimization, docs 11:32
svnbot6 r15183 | fglock++ | kp6 - finished core compiler 11:39
r15183 | fglock++ | see v6/v6-KindaPerl6/docs/ANNOUNCE
fglock putter: for next phase of the project, an optimized gramar engine written in simple-p6 would be a great help 11:50
putter: re p5 code which enumerates the operators, each with all its associated info - please see v6.pm perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Perl6/lib/Pugs/Grammar/*fix.pm 11:57
putter: re pugs regexes: pugs uses the same as v6.pm = Pugs::Compiler::Rule 12:00
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moritz has anybody got an idea what to do about bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=406081 ? 13:12
lambdabot Title: #406081 - pugs_6.2.13-0.1(ia64/unstable): FTBFS: No such file - Debian Bug repor ...
moritz the quoted file ext/Math-Basic/lib/Math/Basic.pm is in the svn... 13:13
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gaal moritz: I think it's maybe just a transient failure, like running out of memory likely. prelude compilation takes lots of ram. 14:46
moritz gaal: maybe. but wouldn' other compilations fail as well? and many of them? 14:47
gaal they might, if they run of of memeory. the question is whether this always happens, and how much free memory did the system have when it happened. 14:51
moritz I don't know if the debian buildds collect such information... 14:52
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gaal ok, i'll reply to the bug. 14:54
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svnbot6 r15184 | moritz++ | Added libghc-network-dev to debian/control 17:05
r15184 | moritz++ | Mentioned project_planning/{TASKS,TALK} in Pugs::Doc::Hack
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moritz hey, what happened to the -e (etc.) operators from perl5? 17:23
pugs> if -e "/etc/passwd" { say "Yes"; }
*** No compatible subroutine found: "&e"
at <interactive> line 1, column 4-21
Gothmog_ They're gone and replaced... 17:24
See S03 17:25
wolverian moritz, see perlcabal.org/syn/S03.html#Changes_..._operators
lambdabot Title: S03
Gothmog_ You can use $filename.:e or $filename ~~ :e
moritz wolverian, Gothmog_: Thanks 17:26
I skimmed over S03 but seemed to have missed it ;)
the ~~ version works, the .:e not 17:28
Gothmog_ Might not be implemented in pugs yet. 17:30
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TimToady it's not implemented yet. 17:36
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gaal TimToady: "Perl 5's ${...}, @{...}, %{...}, etc. dereferencing forms are now $(...), @(...), %(...), etc." in S03/Changes -- shouldn't we, uh, de-"reference" that? 19:35
PerlJam heh 19:37
gaal: If it helps the programmer think of them as references, why not let them continue to do so? :) 19:38
gaal for the same reason that other conceits that stop working should be given up
@@@@@@@@x fails in Perl 5 where it wouldn't in Perl 6, for example. 19:39
well, $$$$$$$x 19:40
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PerlJam Well, those are still "perl 5's dereferencing forms". The sentence doesn't say what they are in perl 6 land. That seems like a useful omission to me :-) 19:41
gaal hmm, I guess if the purpose is pedagogical, not to scare off folks with a new concept right in line one, then there's a reason for it. But who said this has to be in line one? :-) 19:43
& 19:46
Limbic_Region gaal - concept ne conceit 19:50
Khisanth and anyone that writes $$$$$$$x deserves a beating 19:54
PerlJam Khisanth: amen! 19:55
tene gives Khisanth a beating.
PerlJam tene: you seem to be suffering from use/mention conflation 19:56
tene PerlJam: he said "write", not "use"
PerlJam touche
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partclCoke ... even if someone DOES say "jehovah". </python> 20:14
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svnbot6 r15185 | lwall++ | added skeleton of precedence parser 20:52
r15185 | lwall++ | syntactic categories look a little more role based now
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Gothmog_ Where is the grammar located in the repository? I'm somewhat curious. :-) 21:21
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wolverian Gothmog_, /mirror/pugs/src/perl6/Perl-6.0.0-STD.pm 21:24
er, you get the idea.. :)
partclCoke what's the current status of pugs on parrot? 21:28
audreyt -CPIR still works last I checked 21:30
still no objects, closures should still work if PIR havn't changed too much 21:31
wouldn't be surprised if embedded parrot has bitrotten
wasn't very stable to begin with
partclCoke is it worth keeping up to date, you think? 21:32
audreyt is the embparrot API declared stable?
partclCoke nothing in parrot has been declared stable, i didn't think. 21:33
audreyt having worked with 4 generations of that API, I don't quite envision chasing more :)
*nod*
partclCoke though I think particle is trying tof ix that.
I'm just wondering if having the end version of pugs being able to target the end version of parrot is useful. If so, probably better to chase it now than try to fix it up later.
audreyt target is -CPIR 21:34
it's in better shape
embed otoh probably doesn't need to work
it needed to work when we were relying on PGE for rules
(target means "take perl6, compile with pugs, and generate PIR")
(embed means "call PIR natively from within Pugs")
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partclCoke c has done a bit of work on embedded. no clue on current status. 21:35
audreyt in any case, firmly convinced that fix it up later is easier than chase.
TimToady audreyt: have a look at the most recent src/perl6/Perl-6.0.0-STD.pm
partclCoke eh. I'll poke later this week.
really. Hurm. then I won't poke too much. =-)
STD is an unfortunate acronym!
TimToady categories are kinda multi-ish rules 21:36
partclCoke (er, abbreviation, I suspect it really is)
audreyt Six-Targetting Definitions?
audreyt sees lower-cased :prec<z=> etc table and flashes thru nethack monsters 21:37
TimToady I suppose we could spell it out "Standard" or something...
moritz TimToady: how boring ;)
partclCoke eh. not everyone has the brane of a 14 year old. 21:38
audreyt TimToady: so instead of "multi rule ..." you just write "rule"? 21:40
after a category is seen that is
TimToady I suppose "category" could be "proto rule" but I didn't want to commit to rule/token 21:41
since you could conceivably mix 'em
audreyt they are just shorthands for regexes 21:42
TimToady but extensible regexes
audreyt so "proto rule" just means "proto regex {...:sigspace:ratchet}"
TimToady can be extended by more declarations at derivation time
audreyt ayeaye.
really not identical to subs
TimToady they're trying to get a handle on the scoping of grammar reanalysis as it mutates 21:43
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TimToady also I suspect category needs special handling so we know what's legal in foo:<*> syntax 21:44
unless we just admit anything of that form as a valid name anywhere...
audreyt token prefix is Named_unary[] {:<rand>}
TimToady just sub ($) probably 21:45
audreyt anytime a user defines an in-scope name the metasub need to go register a new token?
to the current grammar objec that is
TimToady I suspect we can special case identifier parsing
audreyt mm?
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TimToady on the other hand, there's some benefit to shoving idents through longest token as well 21:46
presuming an efficient DFA or trie front end
audreyt yeah. find with that way for now 21:47
Gothmog_ wolverian: Thanks!
wolverian you're welcome :)
audreyt *fine
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moritz anybody interested in failing debian builds via dpkg-buildpackage? 21:48
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audreyt TimToady: so the dynamic parsing rules (list vs scalar assignment, immediate binding with ::=, declarator pseudoassignment) belong there too? 21:49
moritz: I am
moritz audreyt: moritz.faui2k3.org/tmp/pugs-dpkg-buildlog (wait a second until that damn slow upload is finished) 21:50
audreyt TimToady: historically those three are among the more tricky ones to lift from precparser land back into dynamic rulespace 21:51
TimToady any rule that gets ahold of the engine can treat however much of the subsequent text as part of its "token", and call EXPR with a different sub-precedence
audreyt (I saw that => has been taken care of)
moritz audreyt: upload finished ;)
allbery_b wasn't gonna say anything... :)
TimToady sorry 'bout that... :) 21:52
allbery_b (nobody gets my name right)
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TimToady that's how ??...!! is parsed already 21:52
audreyt moritz: clearly 10smoker is a faulty patch
moritz audreyt: right ;) 21:53
audreyt rafl: thoughts?
rafl: seems 10smoker no longer applies (assuming it's yours)
TimToady: 21:54
{ :<??> <EXPR(|%conditional> :<!!> }
TimToady %conditional contains the max precedence
audreyt explain the <FOO(|%x> metasyntax?
TimToady missing right paren
audreyt oh. easy explanation
fixed 21:55
TimToady you see how multiple :<> can work together to form infix:<?? !!> from the user point of view?
svnbot6 r15186 | audreyt++ | * Fix missing right parens
audreyt what is prefix | doing?
expanding into nameds? 21:56
TimToady yes
there's a skeleton "method EXPR" at the bottom
audreyt amazingly simple
oh, "your ad here" 21:57
ok
TimToady I didn't put in the reduces.
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audreyt nodnod. got the idea 21:57
what are those suppose points?
TimToady places where you parse it by the standard rules, but mark that you suspect they meant something else, so when the parse gets into trouble, you have things to look at to give them better diags 21:58
"Did you mean..."
audreyt no examples yet? 21:59
TimToady no, it's just a stub idea, but one I've had for ages.
audreyt but just string?
or try some reparse
TimToady not strictly necessary to get a good parse, but will be necessary for acceptance by p5 programmers
audreyt and use reparse to give more info?
moritz: drop [email@hidden.address] and [email@hidden.address] a mail? 22:00
TimToady yes, grinding through backtracking to figure out some might-have-beens
audreyt moritz: rafl may not be around atm, but I suspect he can fix it rather quickly
why does that remind of of /:panic// 22:01
*remind me of
moritz audreyt: I just delete the /debian/patches/ dir and now it builds (and needs quite a while .. ;)
TimToady 'cause I used the same word maybe?
audreyt :)
moritz audreyt: I'll write the mail as sonn as the package is ready 22:02
audreyt all in all sane
moritz++ # thanks!
TimToady: you still think
when .:e {}
when :e {}
need to be synonyms?
admittedly the latter reads better 22:03
TimToady I think so
audreyt ok. will go implement .:e
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TimToady I don't see a better way out of the prec problem with ~~ 22:03
audreyt no, I mean ditch ~~
force .: all the time
TimToady don't want to force that 22:04
since I think people want "when :r & :x"
audreyt btw, how is $foo.Foo::Bar parsed nowadays?
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TimToady .<name> 22:05
audreyt $foo.Foo: :Bar?
TimToady method is name, not ident
audreyt (this is S03:247)
then maybe S03 wants to say that
TimToady name can include ::
fixed 22:07
audreyt thx
$file.=:e 22:08
legal?
TimToady no
audreyt so it's dot
not methname
gotcha
TimToady .: is special
audreyt S03:2156 22:09
Any Pair test object .STATUS(X) (Str,IO do filetest)
oh. the parens means #
the last pair that is
TimToady ???
audreyt I misparsed it as Signature 22:10
:(Str, IO does filetest)
but it actually means
# Str and IO objects do filetest
TimToady yes
but intended for any lightweight status reporting
syntax also hijacked for :exists and :delete
audreyt but that is for construction not slicing syntax no? 22:11
I mean, a pair literal :foo{...}
means
foo => {...}
which doens't use slice syntax inside
unless I'm mistaken
i.e. it's not a subscribe, it's a normal hash composer (or Code) 22:12
*subscript
TimToady well, $obj.:delete{expr} just gets the pair and can do whatever it likes to expr, I expect
audreyt except
@foo.delete:[1;2;3]
lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
audreyt works but
only if (@x = [1;2;3]) works
I mean .:delete[] of course
TimToady ; is supposed to work inside brackets 22:13
statement vs dimensional is left to context
might not be lazy enough for {;;} though... 22:14
audreyt so in .:exists{1;2;3}
it's turned into Code
but in
.:exists{1=>2, 3=>4}
it's turned into Hash
either way the pair STATUS gets is not very useful
still not quite grasping the picture 22:15
TimToady unless there's some way to eval Code to return dimensions
but I admit it's far-fetched. will think s'more
audreyt what I mean is "parsed exactly as a subscript will be"
need to be a hard mandate
and not (generally) to be labelled as colon pairs
cool :) 22:16
(fwiw, I wonder if we can parse it as postcircum, instead of circum.)
and generally just treat all brackets in .: form as slice 22:17
but that will not work with "when" and ~~
which was the motivation behind suggestion of dropping them
TimToady not too worried about "when :delete{...}
audreyt when :exists{1} {...}
TimToady but maybe pairs in general need to be a little lazier about {...} 22:18
or maybe we always use [...] for such things.
audreyt mmm lua. 22:19
the autocomposing thing bites us a bit too much
not limited to here
TimToady I have thought some about [a => 1, b => 2] maybe autohashifying lazily
audreyt wouldn't oppose codeonly{}
exactly.
wolverian I was just thinking about saying that aloud but was too scared.. 22:20
audreyt but everybody else is going that way :)
TimToady "like the rest of the world uses" is not an argument that flies in certain quarters... :/
audreyt unless it's the dot... 22:21
j/k
wolverian the solution is obviously {[ ]}
TimToady "...and wrong"
tene {[(< >)]}
audreyt
.oO([{< >}])Oo.
 22:22
wolverian space portal!
TimToady well, %(...) already presumably works
moritz perl6 should parse ascii-art ;)
TimToady but only for bare literal
audreyt moritz: seen Saturn.pl?
jabbot audreyt: I havn't seen Saturn.pl, audreyt
moritz audreyt: nope
audreyt moritz: www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=397958 22:23
lambdabot Title: Saturn
wolverian jabbot, seen a spelling guide?
jabbot wolverian: I havn't seen a, wolverian
TimToady going with optional %foo['bar'] would allow us to use "my" inside.
but I've always felt that [...] should be reserved for numeric subscripts so the optimizer knows things are getting coerced to integer generally.
audreyt "my"?
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TimToady a { } subscript defines a lexical scope 22:24
audreyt aha.
TimToady a [ ] one doesnt
audreyt "deliberately"
tene Just let people use whatever grouping operator they want and guess at the meaning from context.
TimToady rebol
everything is [...]
audreyt actually if we make :meth first class 22:25
and not worry about STATUS
then this problem all goes away
no more pairs, generally
the :exists method gets a normal subscripting arglist as postcircum[] would
TimToady evaluated too soon 22:26
audreyt for the .:exists form? 22:27
TimToady .meth{foo} is parsed as .meth.{foo}
you'd have to return a proxy
audreyt sure, I mean keep parserule
.:meth is special in that it takes postcircum brackets 22:28
in addition to parens
but make the dispatch go through normal dispatch
not named redispatch
TimToady hmm. :infix<*>
audreyt method :exists {...} # also easier to write than STATUS variants 22:29
dunno. seems simpler
quite a bit faster too.
TimToady I actually thought of that a couple of days ago, but it didn't seem like it worked out, forget why.
audreyt it wouldn't work out if we allow ~~:exists[] 22:30
but as you said we're fine with limiting ~~ to simple (nonbracketing, or parens-only) args
otherwise seems kosher
TimToady ah, part of the reason I didn't want to go that route was I didn't want :r etc in Str, but maybe that's just does something or other 22:32
audreyt yeah.
TimToady or maybe we just shove :r into Str anyway
audreyt and it nicely summarizes :!e to mean !:e
! .:e
and do without the "inspect the bool" game
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TimToady well, we did have :!x meaning two different things, I guess 22:33
audreyt *nod*
TimToady does it mean !.:x or does it mean .:x(Bool::False)
old pair syntax has the latter
audreyt the current spec places burden on STATUS implementers
to inspect the bool
and translate by hand
(pugs does that currently) 22:34
icky.
TimToady or maybe pairs can carry their !-hood independent of their argument
method :!r {...}
audreyt I think it's easier to leave pairs alone
and make :!foo consistent instead of as part of the name
TimToady but people will want :!exists{...} 22:35
audreyt and that is differnet from !.:exists{} how?
moritz Saturn.pl is way cool ;)
audreyt i.e. if we assume a rewrite of all
$obj.:!meth{...}
into
!$obj.:meth{...} 22:36
don't quite see what's lost
rewrite by compiler not by hand
moritz: so Perl 5 alredy does ascii art :)
TimToady :!flag as an option gets ! how?
audreyt $obj.meth(:!flag) still sees $obj.meth(flag => False)
the .: form no longer have anything to do with pairs 22:37
.:foo{...} has nothing to do with foo=>{...}
.:!foo nothing to do with foo=>False
TimToady but prevents "when :!w"
audreyt does not 22:38
still means
! ~~:w
the smartmatcher can mandate that easily
when :w(False) # special cased
always means !:w
TimToady seems not quite a simple as it should be. 22:39
audreyt but pushing all this to Pair objects seems to make it more complex
dunno. not very tied to this particular interpretation. but handwritten STATUS tester feels somehow wrong, plus I'd like subscript over constructor 22:40
TimToady well, I guess we're just saying the meaning of ! is contextual.
audreyt hm. <1.5hr till OSCON proposal deadline 22:41
audreyt goes making something random up :) bbiab
miyagawa audreyt: thanks for reminding me
audreyt miyagawa: heya :)
miyagawa :) 22:42
audreyt miyagawa: so seems there'll be YAPC::Beijing right after OSDC.tw
miyagawa ooooh!
audreyt jp-tw-cn
I'll be to all three
they'll post to use.perl soon
miyagawa awesome
audreyt hopefully we can find some .jp hackers to join
next time it could be an OSDC 22:43
miyagawa should we rename ours to YAPC::Asia::Tokyo? :)
audreyt but YAPC first this time
nah. YAPC::Asia is just fine :) the rest of us are OSDC'ing
OSDC.cn
miyagawa we're talking with Sasada and other RubyKaigi organizers to make OSDC (at least Ruby and Perl) happen in 2008
audreyt eggsellent 22:44
22:48 Schwern joined 23:16 bd_ joined 23:22 Aankhen`` joined 23:27 gnuvince joined
beppu I've heard crazy rumors that pugs can take Perl 6 code and emit Javascript? Is this true? 23:28
audreyt yes, ./pugs -CJS -e "say 'hello'" 23:30
beppu audreyt += 2 ** 32
audreyt overfloweth 23:31
it's iblech's work, though. 23:32
beppu whooooaaaa -- that was a lot of javascript
TimToady probably dumped the prelude with it 23:33
23:33 weinig joined
beppu yeah... I'm going to try to see if it actually works.... 23:34
audreyt with the released pugs, definitely works
trunk pugs, conditionals may be broken (known bug) as we switched representation for "if ... CODE" to "if ... BLOCK" 23:35
known issue and will be fixed before release
23:38 weinig is now known as weinig|away 23:42 Psyche^ joined
beppu ha! firefox 1.5.0.8's js interpreter says: too much recursion 23:42
didn't give me any line numbers, though. 23:43
moritz ;)
pugs -CJS -e "say 'hello';"|wc -l
56085
that's quite impressive ;)
23:46 Squern joined 23:55 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner

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