»ö« | perl6-projects.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | evalbot: 'perl6: say 3;' | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is your friend!
Set by Tene on 14 May 2009.
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ab5tract stjohnson, I like ruby but am also excited about perl 6 00:20
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sjohnson ab5tract: i think Perl 6 will be my favourite 00:43
and i am excited as well
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ab5tract sjohnson, why don't you like ruby 00:46
sjohnson if there wasn't perl 6 it would be my favourite, but not a fan of most blocks (like if, etc) being done with english words
as i like to hit the % key in Vim, and have it match the { and }'s
that's one reason off the top of my head 00:47
ab5tract cool
sjohnson another thing.. in perl, you can do if(@ARGV)
whereas in ruby, you will have to do if ARGV.empty?
or something like that
ab5tract unless ARGV.empty? , yeah
sjohnson yeah thats the one 00:48
unless
i prefer using if's and perl knowing what i am trying to do
ab5tract yeah, they are two quite different branches on the family tree
sjohnson i can usually write in Perl quite fast becuase the if statement can always figure out what i am trying to accomplish
ab5tract Tene, are you there? 00:49
sjohnson, yes, that is a consequence of Ruby's everything-as-object model 00:51
sjohnson i think the fact that things that are empty / 0 are true in ruby is the real issue 00:52
ab5tract sjohnson, which is a consequence of the said model
sjohnson but doesnt perl 6 do it too? 00:53
ab5tract what? treat everything as an object?
sjohnson yeah
rakudo: say 0.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
sjohnson rakudo: if 0 { } else { print "false"; } 00:54
ab5tract i don't think so, or at least minus the limitations that Ruby's implementation constrains
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«false»
ab5tract rakudo: my $x; if $x { } else { print "false"; } 00:55
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«false»
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sjohnson rakudo: my $x; say $x.WHAT; 00:57
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«Failure()␤»
sjohnson in any case, i am super excited for Perl 6 to come out 00:58
it fixes many minor annoyances in perl 5, plus a whole lot more 00:59
ab5tract a whole whole lot more 01:00
sjohnson rakudo: my $x = do if 1 { 5 } else { 10}; say $x;
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«5␤»
sjohnson rakudo: my $x = do(if 1 { 5 } else { 10}); say $x;
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«5␤»
sjohnson pugs: my $x = do(if 1 { 5 } else { 10}); say $x;
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected "$x"␤ expecting "=", expression, ")", context, ":" or "("␤ postfix op␤ at /tmp/HbthV3fOE8 line 1, column 4␤»
sjohnson pugs: my $x = do if 1 { 5 } else { 10}; say $x; 01:01
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«5␤»
sjohnson interesting
Tene ab5tract: I am here.
ab5tract i had a suggestion for the cardinal-rakudo bridging
Tene ab5tract: go ahead.
ab5tract idiomatic ruby would have a foreign_require "example"
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Tene ab5tract: I don't know what you mean. 01:02
ab5tract but would normally never also have an option for loading a module within that
sorry
right now foreign_require takes two arguments, right?
the library to load and the module to load 01:03
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ab5tract (the module within the library) 01:03
in idiomatic ruby you load the library
TimToady std: my $x = do(if 1 { 5 } else { 10}); say $x;
p6eval std 26923: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Unable to parse argument list; couldn't find final ')' at /tmp/Rqv5mgwJCg line 1:␤------> my $x = do(if 1 { 5 } else { 10}); say $x;␤ expecting nofun␤FAILED 00:02 36m␤»
ab5tract and then explicitly include any modules you wish to use, when you wish to use them 01:04
so the example from the blog would be
Tene ab5tract: no, it requires the language to load a library from, and the library.
ab5tract oh okay yes i see that 01:05
Tene ab5tract: it's not rakudo/cardinal specifically, it's any language that supports the same API. 01:06
No other languages do yet.
ab5tract can you send me the link to your blog i've misplaced it
Tene And foreign_require is just the first way to load a library that i could think of. 01:07
blogs.gurulabs.com/stephen/
ab5tract okay so the distinction im trying to make is 01:08
if Foo.pm was in fact a ruby library
when you do a require "foo"
you would still have to do an 'include Foo'
in order for greet to be visible 01:09
if sub greet were defined outside of module Foo, then they would be visible upon the load
Tene OK, yes, that should probably be fixed.
I don't actually know ruby.
ab5tract yeah i know so I just wanted to give you a heads up :) 01:10
Tene I will accept and commit any patches to cardinal to work that way. I'd love to see some work on that.
ab5tract yeah I keep meaning to write test cases and all sorts of crap for cardinal
but i'm spread pretty thin
ill fork cardinal though
Tene Even test cases would be great. 01:11
ab5tract yeah like I said I've been meaning to do them I'm just working on like a million projects at once right now 01:12
anyway, you mentioned on your blog for suggestions on how to make it more ruby-like
ask and you shall receive ;)
Tene Thank you. 01:14
If you could post tha tin a comment there, I'd be more likely to remember it. btw. :)
ab5tract Tene, does cardinal assume I have parrot in my path?
sure thing
Tene You can use an argument to Config.pl, I think... 01:15
If not, that's probably a bug
ah 01:16
--parrot-config=~/src/parrot/parrot_config
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ab5tract cool thx 01:20
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ab5tract new comment in mod queue :) 01:24
Tene ab5tract: the part about automatically importing subs not defined in a namespace is unlikely to be supported without some significant changes in Parrot, that won't happen for quite a while. 01:26
In Parrot, there isn't actually a way to say "What are the objects in this bytecode file?". All you can do is load the bytecode, and then look for symbols in a specific namespace. 01:27
ab5tract okay that is fune 01:28
*fine
it was more there as an example 01:29
indeed it is rarely done that way
awesome that cardinal has an interpreter shell! 01:30
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Tene :) 01:45
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literal rakudo: say <a #channel> 02:59
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«a#channel␤»
literal rakudo: say «a #channel» 03:00
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«a#channel␤»
bacek_ rakudo: say 1.i 03:06
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«Method 'i' not found for invocant of class 'Int'␤»
bacek_ rakudo: say eval("1.i") 03:07
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«␤»
bacek_ perl6: say 1.i
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«Method 'i' not found for invocant of class 'Int'␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Int: "&i"␤ at /tmp/SKXgysFtjS line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
..elf 26923: OUTPUT«Can't call method "i" without a package or object reference at (eval 123) line 3.␤ at ./elf_h line 5881␤»
bacek_ seen moritz_ 03:08
!seen moritz_
say moritz_ Looks like is_approx(eval("sqrt($i.i)"), 1i, 'got the square root of -1.i') in S32/sqrt.t is incorrect 03:09
msg moritz_ Looks like is_approx(eval("sqrt($i.i)"), 1i, 'got the square root of -1.i') in S32/sqrt.t is incorrect
EWRONGDIALECT 03:10
!say moritz_ Looks like is_approx(eval("sqrt($i.i)"), 1i, 'got the square root of -1.i') in S32/sqrt.t is incorrect
perl6: say log10(-1i) 03:13
p6eval elf 26923: OUTPUT«Undefined subroutine &GLOBAL::log10 called at (eval 124) line 3.␤ at ./elf_h line 5881␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«0 + -0.6821881769209206i␤»
..rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«0␤»
bacek_ perl6: say log10(-1i).WHAT
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
..elf 26923: OUTPUT«Undefined subroutine &GLOBAL::log10 called at (eval 125) line 3.␤ at ./elf_h line 5881␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«Complex␤»
03:15 bacek_ is now known as bacek
pugs_svn r26924 | bacek++ | [t/spec] Mark all complex log10 as todo for rakudo. Including wrongly passing tests. 03:15
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ab5tract_ which editors have syntax highlighting for parrot and or perl 6 and where can I find them? 03:55
eternaleye bacek: If you're looking for the messagebot, labdabot-- has @tell as his syntax, but is deprecated, and phenny++ has 'phenny: tell ..." as her syntax
*lambdabot 03:56
bacek eternaleye: thanks
eternaleye np
ab5tract_ by 'them' I mean the syntax highlighting configs
bacek ab5tract_: both editors highlighting 03:57
has highlighting
eternaleye ab5tract_: At very least Emacs and VIM have syntax hilighting, running a find command to locate the respective scripts (ISTR them being in the pugs repo) 03:59
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eternaleye util/perl6.vim , misc/Syntax-Highlight-Perl6/lib/rsc/perl6.vim , and util/cperl-mode.el 04:00
meppuru good night 04:05
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ab5tract_ eternaleye, why thank you very much 04:07
strange, rakudo comes with no such thing 04:12
eternaleye ab5tract_: svn.pugscode.org/pugs 04:15
(also the svn co url)
ab5tract_ just saying, thats a bit strange that it doesnt come with rakudo 04:16
eternaleye Oh, I thought you were looking in the rakudo tree and couldn't find what I listed 04:17
:/
ab5tract_ is stupid but not quite that :) 04:18
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eternaleye is 04:24
eternaleye did that 04:25
pugs_svn r26925 | jdlugosz++ | add C<> tags, fix typos, fix out-of-date \$args to |$args, use Callable (not Code or others) for the role, change .wrap to return a cookie object to unwrap, remove the only use of := that wasn't in a declaration (hoping for single-assign semantics) and show regular assignment 04:26
..for Routine to replace its "do" property without changing the Routine object's identity.
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pugs_svn r26926 | jdlugosz++ | Refer to actual concrete class C<Routine> where applicable, replace Code with actual class or role names. Add mention of non-instantiatable roles were classes were listed instead of "etc." 04:48
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TimToady bacek: it's 1\i now, and .i is a normal method. This applies to any postfix operators that start alphabetic 04:53
it's not necessary on 1i, of course, but on $x\i it is.
rakudo: say 1\i 04:54
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "\\i"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
TimToady looks like rakudo doesn't do that yet
std: say 1\i
p6eval std 26926: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
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TimToady bacek_: see ^^ 04:58
bacek_ TimToady: I missed previous line. And ilbot is absent... 05:00
TimToady it's 1\i now, and .i is a normal method. This applies to any postfix operators that start alphabetic 05:01
it's not necessary on 1i, of course, but on $x\i it is.
rakudo doesn't know it yet though
but
std: say 1\i 05:02
p6eval std 26926: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
bacek_ rakudo: say 1\i
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "\\i"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
bacek_ ok. Test is definitely wrong.
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pugs_svn r26927 | bacek++ | [t/spec] Remove wrong sqrt(-1.i) test. TimToady++ for clarification. 05:05
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finanalyst rakudo: say foo(1,2,3);sub foo($a,$b is copy,$c?){$b=4;return $a+$b+$c} 06:03
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«8␤»
finanalyst rakudo: say foo(1,2,3);sub foo($a,$b is copy, $c=3){$b=4;return $a+$b+$c}
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«8␤»
finanalyst rakudo: say foo(1,2,3);sub foo($a,$b,$c=3 is copy){$c=4;return $a+$b+$c} 06:04
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«Unable to parse multisig; couldn't find final ')' at line 1, near "is copy){$"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
finanalyst rakudo: say foo(1,2,3);sub foo($a,$b,$c=3 is copy ){$c=4;return $a+$b+$c} 06:05
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«Unable to parse multisig; couldn't find final ')' at line 1, near "is copy ){"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
TimToady default has to follow traits
finanalyst rakudo: say foo(1,2,3);sub foo($a,$b,$c is copy =3){$c=4;return $a+$b+$c} 06:06
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«7␤»
finanalyst ah
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sjohnson rakudo: say dazzle(); 06:08
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub dazzle␤»
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finanalyst i just checked S06 again and did not find traits before defaults to be specified 06:09
TimToady: may I suggest a clarification to S06 specifying traits before defaults? 06:13
TimToady it's clarified in STD :) 06:16
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finanalyst TimToady: is STD part of the description of perl6? 06:20
TimToady effectively
finanalyst how do i read it?
i mean, where is the latest version? 06:21
TimToady src/perl6/STD.pm
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finanalyst will STD be one of the defining documents for perl6, or is it a temporary condition - that the working copy is a part of the spec? 06:22
TimToady the problem with putting traits after the default is it looks like the trait applies to the default value
it is defining 06:23
finanalyst is this a departure from the idea that perl6 should be defined independently from the implementation? 06:25
sjohnson rakudo: print do 1 + 3; 06:26
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«4»
TimToady sure, but it's a departure that's several years old
finanalyst my perception was that as you found inconsistencies/better ways of doing things, you updated the specs 06:27
TimToady STD is one of the specs 06:28
sjohnson rakudo: my $x = 100; my $y = 0; my $ret; do { $y++; $x++; $ret .= "$x, "; } while ($y < 3); print $ret;
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«.= must have a call on the right hand side at line 1, near " .= \"$x, \""␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:2553)␤»
finanalyst TimToady: STD is not yet cited on any of the sites as being a part of the specs, or official documentation 06:29
TimToady tough nuggies :)
std: my $x = 100; my $y = 0; my $ret; do { $y++; $x++; $ret .= "$x, "; } while ($y < 3); print $ret;
p6eval std 26927: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Possible obsolete use of .= as append operator; in Perl 6 please use ~= instead at /tmp/cfEqJLbxwC line 1:␤------> $ret; do { $y++; $x++; $ret .= "$x, "; } while ($y < 3); print $ret;␤ok 00:04 37m␤»
sjohnson did i find a bug? 06:31
is is there a proper way to append strings other than .= 06:32
in p6
TimToady use ~=, since ~ is concat
also, there's no do {} while 06:33
std: my $x = 100; my $y = 0; my $ret; do { $y++; $x++; $ret ~= "$x, "; } while ($y < 3); print $ret;
p6eval std 26927: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 37m␤»
TimToady std: my $x = 100; my $y = 0; my $ret; repeat { $y++; $x++; $ret ~= "$x, "; } while ($y < 3); print $ret;
p6eval std 26927: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 37m␤»
TimToady rakudo: my $x = 100; my $y = 0; my $ret; do { $y++; $x++; $ret ~= "$x, "; } while ($y < 3); print $ret; 06:34
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«101, 102, 103, »
sjohnson std: my $x = 100; my $y = 0; my $ret; repeat { $y++; $x++; $ret ~= "$x, "; } while ($y < 3); print "$ret\n";
p6eval std 26927: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 37m␤»
sjohnson wow
oops
i broketed it
TimToady the do form is supposed to be prohibited 06:35
sjohnson std: my $x = 100; my $y = 0; my $ret; do { $y++; $x++; $ret ~= "$x, "; } while ($y < 3); print "$ret\n"; 06:38
p6eval std 26927: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 37m␤»
sjohnson neither one seem to work with std 06:39
TimToady std doesn't do anything except parse
biab &
sjohnson doing this line exactly in perl 5 buggers up my prompt
my $x = 100; my $y = 0; my $ret; do { $y++; $x++; $ret .= "$x, "; } while ($y < 3); print "$ret" 06:40
if i dont put the "\n" after $ret, it buggers up my prompt
i wonder why
sjohnson is going to try on another shell
ahh works there
probably something to do with my fancy-shamncy bash color prompt 06:41
perl! 06:48
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sbp #talis 08:17
er, sorry
"/join " in one tab, focus stolen, channel name in another... :-)
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sjohnson worry not, friend 08:36
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pmurias ruoso: hi 10:14
finanalyst i am running a rakudo program with an iterative loop. it generates a 'segmentation fault' at the same point in the loop for a variety of adjustments to the algorithm. anything i can do to isolate the problem? 10:23
Tene finanalyst: try to reduce the program to as simple a program as possible that still segfaults. 10:25
Gothmog_ or run it with valgrind :) 10:26
finanalyst what is valgrind? 10:27
ok just googled valgrind. anything special to apply to rakudo? 10:28
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Gothmog_ i dunno. should be compiled with debug symbols, though. :) 10:29
finanalyst are debug symbols included by default with bleeding edge rakudo? 10:36
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skids When not eagerized, 1..3 is a Range and 1..3.Iterator is a RangeIterator (if the spec is current). Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what the corresponding roles for <a b c> xx 10 are? 11:02
Or offer suggestions about how to prevent an explosion of such classes, e.g. a generic generator role with opaque state and assignable .get method? 11:05
So that everything that gens a list is List does Generator but nothing more specific? 11:07
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cspencer I've just built the latest build of rakudo, and the spectest is failing for me though it's not giving me a list of failed tests 17:05
does anyone know why that might be? 17:06
it looks something like this: pastie.org/488224 17:07
jnthn cspencer: Heh, looks at first glance like it counts a passing todo test as a fail?! 17:18
cspencer jnthn: i'm not sure...it was doing this on an earlier build last week and i don't recall the TODO being there at that time 17:19
jnthn Wstat: 0 Tests: 29 Failed: 0 17:20
cspencer hmmm
jnthn oh, wait, that's just for the one file, not overall
Hm. Odd.
cspencer this is on os x, i'll do a check out on linux and see if i get the same result 17:21
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jnthn Can't believe we fail at failing... 17:27
jnthn -> dinner 17:30
mberends literal: ping 17:35
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literal pong 18:20
masak saluton, #perl6.
sjohnson: oh, you're still here? in that case, welcome. :) 18:23
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mberends literal: fwiw, just letting you know that I've decided to do a port of Pod::Parser to perl5 and v6.pm. I have no idea how it will come out, but scalability of parrot/rakudo has been bothering me and makes development and testing awkward. The port is actually research work for my talk in Lisbon. 18:30
masak: salutons 2 u 2. 18:31
masak mberends: \o/
mberends: a port? cool!
mberends this v6.pm has been around a while and it needed to be tried out 18:32
masak googles 'cpan v6'
mberends the docs are very scant so it seems best to dive in and try it 18:33
masak Pugs, eh?
mberends it has contributions from Pugs but appears to run completely in Perl 5
masak o_O 18:34
mberends: that sounds too good to be true... 18:35
mberends it's just a subset of P6, too good to be true indeed
masak sure, sure. but which subset? :) 18:36
literal mberends: ok 18:40
I've been using Damian's Perl6::Perldoc so far
mberends literal: how has that worked for you? 18:41
masak literal: g'day. tried to finish my pre-23rd work with u4x before leaving for the weekend, but I didn't get that far. I hope to look at it tomorrow. in the meantime, I'd be very happy to talk about the design of the grok tool. 18:42
literal it's fast and understands everything except formatting codes with «» (though I think that's a bug)
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literal masak: ok 18:42
masak literal: by the way, did you read moritz_++'s idea about meeting weekly in #perl6-gsoc?
JDlugosz howdy folks
literal masak: no, I must have missed that 18:43
masak JDlugosz: saluton!
literal: was a while ago.
mberends JDlugosz, hi
literal on FreeNode?
masak literal: they did that last year. sounds like a good idea to me.
literal yeah
masak literal: yes, but that channel might not exist any more.
literal it does now... 18:44
masak ah irclog.perlgeek.de/ says #perl6-soc.
literal ah, ok
JDlugosz Hey masak, did you see my post to the mailing list? 18:45
masak JDlugosz: I saw the link, but I was away and didn't have time to read it.
masak reads it now
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JDlugosz The one that begins "my brain made a wrong turn some time on Tuesday." 18:47
masak yes, I read that one.
nice post.
(I thought you meant the "Parameter Passing Examples" article linked from the first post in that thread.) 18:48
JDlugosz So, can you offer any discussion to the questions I called out with arrows?
The Parameter Passing is wrong, it seems. But I'm glad to hear it will be good once it's straightened out! 18:49
masak hm, I'm not one of the philosophers over here, I'm the guy who tries to beat Rakudo into submission... :)
JDlugosz It's fuel to keep plugging away.
The code-pounders often have real answers when the pholosophers (other than myself) don't see the issues. 18:50
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JDlugosz To wit, "how does that happen"? 18:50
masak reads the first question in the email carefully 18:51
to be perfectly frank, the two levels of containers in Perl 6 always confused me a little. 18:52
JDlugosz Or the second, which is short.
It certainly has been confusing in the specs, so no doubt. 18:53
I'm wondering if there is some level of DWIM implemented (not in the spec), or whether I'm missing something conceptually. 18:55
masak JDlugosz: right now I'm backtracking from your first question, seeing how much of the previous part of the email I have to read to get the context.
maybe I'll start by rambling about what I think happens with 'my $x = 1, 2, 3;'...
JDlugosz Don't worry about what I said before on that thread. I set up "from the top" in that post.
rambling: OK. 18:56
masak that's a scalar on the left and a list of stuff on the right.
JDlugosz I'm all ears.
masak the list gets turned into an array and stored into the scalar variable.
I'm guessing you have no problem with that part. 18:57
JDlugosz A little out of date... the list is now a Capture, and it doesn't get turned into anything else. That is, in item context it returns itself.
masak in that case, you know more than I do. 18:58
rakudo: my $x = 1, 2, 3; say $x.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«Array()␤»
masak that's my reality at present. :)
I don't know about those fancy "Capture" thingies.
JDlugosz Ah, in this case, say $x.WHAT, the method-on-scalar forwarding kicks in, and the WHAT applies to the contained object. So it will indeed say it is a list (Array, List, Capture, depending on vintage of implementation). 18:59
So we agree there: $x is bound to a scalar, which holds the list object, which contains 3 Ints. 19:00
masak JDlugosz: Array and List doesn't have to do with the age of the impl. they're just two different classes implementing Positional.
rakudo: say Array ~~ List, List ~~ Array 19:01
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«10␤»
masak Arrays are a kind of List, but they're also mutable, which Lists aren't. 19:02
JDlugosz vintage: which type does the parenthetical comma-separated list create?
masak the List. :)
but I hear you, it's the Capture nowadays.
JDlugosz but racudo shows Array.
masak yes, because... hm, you really force me to think about the deep issues, don't you? :) 19:03
JDlugosz Yes, the immutable "literal" sequence is now Captures throughout the synopses.
jnthn je to masak! :-)
masak: How was your weekend?
masak jnthn: wonderful, thank you.
JDlugosz Whatever. It doesn't matter to the question at hand. $x is bound to scalar, which contains something suitable for @. 19:04
jnthn :-)
masak jnthn: my brain is now running on pure Esperanto for a few days.
JDlugosz When you say my @y := $x; that should be an error because $x is not BOUND to something that does Positional.
But should sub foo (&y) {...} foo($x); be expected to work via DWIM? 19:05
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masak JDlugosz: as long as $x does Callable, sure. 19:05
JDlugosz Sure, says I, when $x isn't bindable to &y, it goes with what $x contains, automatically.
Callable?
jnthn JDlugosz: I expect binding will dwim too, just needs a runtime check.
JDlugosz foo does Callable.
masak JDlugosz: Callable is the & role.
just as Positional is the @ role. 19:06
jnthn Callable is the role done by things that you can invoke.
JDlugosz Sorry, I meant @y.
jnthn Remember than a $foo can contain anything.
JDlugosz Same difference.
masak JDlugosz: ah.
JDlugosz: is your question whether the Positional role has to sit on the variable or on its contents?
JDlugosz "contains" == value or implementation type?
masak: Yes. Seems that it must do both, to fit the intent. 19:07
masak JDlugosz: yes, I think so.
but my brain is foggy.
JDlugosz Because you can certainly pass a real Array as the argument!
masak sure.
JDlugosz So, the argument bound to @y may be something that does Positional, or a scalar that contains such a thing. 19:08
masak er.
I don't think about it that way... :/
JDlugosz my $x := @A; foo($x); # OK, bind directly to argument. 19:09
masak when you do foo(@array), it passes the array in @array. when you do foo($array), and $array contains something that does Positional, it passes that.
JDlugosz my $x; $x=1,2,3; foo($x); # scalar doesn't do Positional.
masak JDlugosz: why doesn't it do Positional? 19:10
jnthn rakudo: my $x; $x=1,2,3; sub foo(@a) { }; foo($x);
p6eval rakudo 23718a: ( no output )
jnthn Good.
JDlugosz: It does.
masak thought so
jnthn JDlugosz: When you talk about $x you're really tending the mean "the value"
If you want to talk about the container unambiguously, you would say $x.VAR 19:11
JDlugosz Ah, might be old ideas? Now, passing is done with a Capture, which doesn't know it needs to pull out the value. It keeps everyting intact, for later use. Think \( $x ).
jnthn: yes, I take that as a general design principle.
jnthn JDlugosz: OK, so the upshot is that in the example above, it cares about whether the thing stored in the scalar does Positional. 19:12
masak jnthn: btw, what's the latest word on the 'sub foo(Int @a) { ... }; my @a = 1..*; foo(@a)' issue? :) 19:13
JDlugosz Yes. In that particular call with that particular binding of $x.
jnthn masak: Latest is you need to write my Int @a
masak jnthn: ah. sounds familiar. 19:14
jnthn: probably quite sane. if typing is done in one place, it could be done in both places.
jnthn masak: This was discussed at NPW, because I kinda wanted to know too since I was trying to get parametric roles wrapped up at the time. And that was the outcome.
masak: The other thing that came out though was that you can do
masak jnthn: ok. I think I'm happy with that.
JDlugosz if $x is bound directly to an Array, then foo($x); still works, but differently.
jnthn sub foo(Num @x) { }; my Int @y; foo(@y)
masak: Which it wasn't clear if you should be able to do before, but now it's clarified and in S14. :-) 19:15
masak: I think it's a good enough balance of dwim vs implementation complexity.
masak aye. 19:16
JDlugosz Guys, what about my next question? How does method calls on a scalar work?
jnthn JDlugosz: Again, the container is just transparent.
If you want to call a method on the container, do $foo.VAR.meth
JDlugosz So the Scalar forwards all methods to its contents.
jnthn Yes. 19:17
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JDlugosz Look what I said about nesting them.... right? 19:17
jnthn Pretty much.
JDlugosz So how does VAR actually work?
jnthn Well, it's a macro. 19:18
So the implementation can do whatever it feels like.
JDlugosz Like what, specifically?
It can't just wrap the scalar in something else, because forwading is a property of the scalar at run-time. 19:19
I'm supposing that it returns a proxy.
jnthn We do something along those lines in Rakudo, but the exact upshot is all a bit hazy at the moment.
Yes, it's a kind of proxy.
In Rakudo.
There's probably more than one way to actually implement it.
I'm not completely sure how it's all going to play out just yet. We're really cheating quite a lot of scalars in Rakudo. 19:20
JDlugosz In general terms, to allow implementation freedom... I suppose $x.VAR.foo could be a macro that takes care of foo as well, doing a idfferent kind of dispatch.
jnthn erm, *on scalars
JDlugosz Or, it known to be a proxy, then $y= VAR$x; should work. 19:21
jnthn .VAR is a macro.
It hands back something you can call a method on.
It may just be soemthing that has a different HOw
*HOW
Thing is that some implementations may go down the road of really having a container and having that point to a value.
JDlugosz OK. That sounds good. But it doesn't have to be a macro to do that... it could be a method that's not forwarded. 19:22
jnthn In Rakudo we're kinda lazy about scalar containers, in an effort to have less garbage collectable objects around.
JDlugosz How much of the expression does the macro suck up to rewrite? Just the VAR as if it were a function, or the trailing dot and stuff as well?
jnthn "I'll act like I've got a container when you ask me for it."
Just the .VAR 19:23
$foo.VAR.rw is I guess like ($foo.VAR).rw
JDlugosz So if it works that way, is there any reason why it needs to be a macro, rather than just a member that's not forwarded?
jnthn Because special cases in the dispatcher are a bad idea. 19:24
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jnthn Have you any reasons for it not to be a macro? 19:24
JDlugosz I'm just thinking of more general cases, the universe of possible implementations that code might run on and expect to get the same behavior. 19:25
masak JDlugosz: in case you're curious, I have no particular relation to the thing you refer to as 'method forwarding' above.
JDlugosz So what is defined behavior needs to be considered carefully.
jnthn Oh, also, you can use .VAR on non-scalars too and it works like the identity function, IIRS12C
JDlugosz masak: I don't understand. relation?
masak JDlugosz: I think of everything as working on the value inside the variable.
jnthn And that means every single dispatcher that gets written would have to know about .VAR. So, certainly a macro. :-) 19:26
masak JDlugosz: since I consider everything as being forwarded (I guess), this term isn't something I tend to use when thinking about these things.
JDlugosz: to prevent forwarding, I'd have to use VAR($x) or some such.
jnthn masak: That's probably because you're not meant to have to think about it most of the time. :-)
JDlugosz Look at the call to $x.foo(). If $x is bound to something other than a scalar, it operates directly on it.
masak jnthn: aye. that says something about the design of the language, that the seams aren't visible. :) 19:27
JDlugosz Because $x can be bound to other containers, or anything really, such as a Dog.
masak JDlugosz: I'm trying to formulate a question that makes you explain to me why I need to think in terms of forwarding. hang on. :) 19:28
JDlugosz So if the compiler doesn't know to expect the item container, it sends foo to whatever is in $x, as it's "just an object".
masak JDlugosz: and when isn't it "just an object"? 19:29
JDlugosz The particular thing $x refers to then implements the Scalar behavior of reflecting that to the contained value instead.
masak: I think I just did that.
masak ok. I'm not sure I follow, then.
I always call methods on the things the variables contain.
JDlugosz masak: think about this case: sub bar ($x) { $x.foo() } 19:30
Now you can call it with bar(@A);
and now in the body of bar, $x is not bound to a scalar, but directly to an Array. 19:31
masak the only difference to me between @a and $a (if $a is an Array), is that @a auto-flattens in some cases.
JDlugosz: yes, dure.
JDlugosz The code inside the body can't assume the presence of a Scalar bound to $x.
masak JDlugosz: what's strange about that?
feels completely non-odd to me. 19:32
by the way, I don't know what to think about Scalar either. :)
JDlugosz The call to $x.foo can't assume the presence of a Scalar bound to $x.
masak 'Scalar' is not something I use in my daily coding.
JDlugosz The item container.
masak um. 19:33
I'm sorry I can't be more helpful in this instance.
JDlugosz re S02: my $spot is Scalar; # this is the default
masak yes, I recall you writing that.
I have no idea what it means for Scalar to be the default, or for $x not being bound to a Scalar. 19:34
JDlugosz And we went over the case of my $x = 1,2,3; $x is bound to an item, which contains a list.
masak in Perl 5, Scalar meant num or str, but I have the feeling it doesn't here.
JDlugosz right. Scalar is shown as the default concrete class for an item container.
jnthn masak: Basically it boils down to, when you have an array you clearly have a container (the array) that holds values. In theory, for $foo, there is a container capable of holding one item.
erm, one value 19:35
masak JDlugosz: I see we don't share the same model of things here. I'm sure your model is closer to the spec, so I will try to absorb it as much as I can.
jnthn masak: Thing is, we try and hide the existence of that container away msot of the time.
masak jnthn: yes. and with me, you succeeded very well. :P
JDlugosz I think I had your model -- item container always present, code knows to indirect off of it -- until last week when it was explained to me to be mistaken.
jnthn masak: Down to the pointer that Rakudo is currently optimized for not really bothering with the container in a lot of cases.
masak jnthn: I still haven't seen the seam where it all breaks apart. 19:36
jnthn erm, the point
masak: When you start applying traits to a scalar or you use .VAR.
masak JDlugosz: that's good to know. I'll brace for a paradigm shift, then.
JDlugosz Yes, I would expect the implementation to optimize away the item container when it can, inline the redirection elsewhere, etc.
jnthn JDlugosz: We do tend to wrap parameters that are passed to a routine in a container when we need to. 19:37
masak jnthn: nope, still don't see it. I know about using .VAR, and I don't find that strange. but I also don't see how that applies to $x containing an Array.
JDlugosz masak: if that's not a shift, how does racudo handle $x being bound directly to an Array?
masak "rakudo".
JDlugosz containing != bound to.
masak JDlugosz: I don't see the problem. dollar variables can be bound to anything.
JDlugosz Yes, they can. So they are not always bound to item containers. 19:38
masak no, why should they? :)
dollar doesn't mean scalar any more. it means anything.
JDlugosz So how does $x.foo work?
masak only @, % and & shrink the types.
jnthn
.oO( $ is the interface uncontract )
19:39 Chillance joined
masak JDlugosz: the method foo is called on the value of $x. 19:39
JDlugosz You said that in rakudo the method call assumes the existance of the item container, using the value instead.
The "value" == the item inside the item container.
What if it doesn't have an item container?
masak 'assumes the existance of the item container'?
jnthn JDlugosz: The method call just calls the method. It doesn't care what's underneath.
masak JDlugosz: what's an item container? 19:40
JDlugosz: sorry, model fail again. :/
jnthn JDlugosz: If there's some kind of scalar container thing there, that'll just "forward on the dispatch".
JDlugosz I thought we were on the same page re item containers.
jnthn JDlugosz: If you can read C-ish code, check out src/pmc/objectref.pmc and src/pmc/perl6scalar.pmc
JDlugosz or Scalar, by default.
masak JDlugosz: I have no idea what an item container would be. I don't use the term Scalar. I don't need 'method forwarding' to explain things in my model. 19:41
so far, you haven't shown why I'd need to.
(or at least, I haven't noticed why.)
that seam seems really well-hidden! :) 19:42
JDlugosz What does the thing returned from VAR operate on? E.g. the STORE and FETCH?
jnthn JDlugosz: Maybe cleanest is to say: if there is any kind of item container, it'll forward. Method invocation is always on the thingy you current have - which you maybe just obtained from the lexpad or namespace or whatever.
19:42 brunov joined
JDlugosz What is the shared "lvalue" when you say my $x := $y; ? 19:42
masak JDlugosz: ok, now we're getting somewhere. 19:43
I can relate to lvalues.
jnthn JDlugosz: I think that would pretty much boil down to taking whatever a lookup of $y gives and making future lookups of $x give back the same thingy.
That is, from this point onwards a lookup of $x and a lookup of $y would give the same thing. 19:44
Whatever that thing happens to be.
Where the "what sort of thing is it" to me is very much a "we worry about it when we need to know" or maybe "if the optimizer can figure it out it can do so and maybe do something smart". 19:45
JDlugosz I think I see your point about rakudo though: the existance of the default item container is absorbed by the implementation. It might fail on some subtle case according to the spec, but for the most part you expect them to be optimized out.
masak if I do 'my ($a, $b, $c, $d) = 1, 2, 3, 4; $b := $a; $c := $b; $b := $d', will $c then be 1 or 4? 19:46
jnthn JDlugosz: Oh, I know full well we'll have to patch up some of the rough edges in Rakudo on this.
pugs_svn r26928 | schwarzer++ | [Perl6/Spec] typos
masak JDlugosz: I've been learning Perl 6 mostly through Rakudo, so I've kinda fallen for the illusion that 'the default item container is absorbed', whatever that means. :) 19:47
brunov masak++ # blogpost of that backlog
jnthn is reading it and wishing he'd thought more :-) 19:48
Don't think I said anything too stupid though. Phew. :-) 19:49
masak++ # well spotted 19:50
masak :) 19:51
JDlugosz Let me wrk it out in multiple lines...
my ($a, $b, $c, $d) = 1, 2, 3, 4;
For scalars holding Ints.
$b := $a;
I argue that binding ought to be single-assignment semantics... no examples of := in the synposes that aren't on the declaration. But if allowed, $b now binds to the same item container as $a.
$c := $b;
$c bound to same container as $a and $b. Let's call that S1, for a Scalar object with an "===" id of 1.
$b := $d
$b changed again, bound to same object as $d, which is still S4.
So $c refers to S1, which contains a value of 1.
masak aye.
that makes sense. 19:52
JDlugosz++ # explanation
JDlugosz re patch up the rough edges: It sounds like taking on the Captures will be rough, since that will show the item containers more. At least in the less-than-obvious uses cases that you optimize over already.
brunov: what blog? 19:53
19:53 moritz_ joined
brunov JDlugosz, use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39025?from=rss 19:53
jnthn JDlugosz: Rakudo has generally proved itself to be pretty bendable. :-)
JDlugosz: I'm only onto the third re-write of method dispatch now. ;-) 19:54
JDlugosz blog or no, let me mention <www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6....5.html> for the record, for the benifit of backlogers.
masak jnthn: and it just keeps getting better. :) jnthn++
JDlugosz jnthn: That is good.
jnthn JDlugosz: In what you wrote above, for === I think you maybe watned =:= for container equality?
Oh, wait, no. 19:55
:-)
oh, hang on...
JDlugosz No, I was thinking of "object identity" of the containers.
jnthn :-)
JDlugosz Containers thought of as objects.
You got it. <g>
masak jnthn: does 'container equality' mean 'the things have the same memory address'?
JDlugosz =:= is a shortcut for VAR's and ===. 19:56
masak oh, ok.
jnthn Pretty much.
masak both explanations make sense to me.
jnthn masak: Yes and no. =:= should only be usable on container-ish things.
1 =:= 1 currently is allowed in Rakudo but shouldn't be afaik.
masak jnthn: ah. well, yes. 19:57
JDlugosz What happens if you try?
jnthn If it is allowed the results are going to be very unpredictable anyway. :-)
masak rakudo: say 1 =:= 1
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«0␤»
masak :)
JDlugosz Good point re specification though.
jnthn I suspect that should be an error.
JDlugosz At least use them on variables, not literals. $x =:= $y means "bound to the same thiing?" even if they are Dogs, not containers. 19:58
jnthn Aye.
JDlugosz Does VAR work on non-variables?
jnthn Just the identity function on non-scalars I think.
JDlugosz While === will "fall though" to the value in an item container.
jnthn *nod* 19:59
Yeah, I guess that means .WHICH is container-transparent for scalars.
JDlugosz So why not define $x =:= $b as being exactly the same meaning as VAR($x)===VAR($y) .
As far as I can tell, =all= methods fall through to the value. 20:00
jnthn I highlighted it because IIRC .WHICH is meant to be a macro.
JDlugosz That is why, it was mentioned a fewminutes ago, that VAR is a macro, not a special method that doesn't fall though.
jnthn HOW and WHAT are anyways...
JDlugosz HOW is a macro? I thought HOW was a method on Object. 20:01
moritz_ no, HOW and WHAT don't participate in normal method dispatch
not even in single dispatch
JDlugosz S12 calls them metamethods.
jnthn No
JDlugosz Ah, "all actually macros"
jnthn These are all actually macros, not true operators or methods.
*nod*
JDlugosz Just to get around any possible bootstrapping dispatch issues, I suppose. 20:02
jnthn Yes.
JDlugosz Not that Moose has any.
jnthn Also so they're predictable
And your own .WHAT method doesn't suddenly make things insane. :-)
JDlugosz But that gives me another reason to appreciate why some things are defined as being macros. Lets them be excluded when you say "all methods". I suppose it makes it immune from changing the dispatcher logic. 20:03
jnthn Aye. I see that as a good thing.
JDlugosz Ah, and so $obj.$s won't call it, but will call any real method by that name.
jnthn you probably mean $obj."$s" 20:04
JDlugosz sayith S12: And if you don't know the method name in advance, you'd be using the variable form anyway:
$obj.$somemeth
jnthn Right, in that case $somemeth is meant to be a Callable. 20:05
Or an array of callable in which case you've got a candidate list that you can defer over.
JDlugosz Or a string.
jnthn no
JDlugosz $obj."foo"; $s="foo"; $obj.$s;
jnthn rakudo: my $x = "abs"; say 42."$x"; say 42.$x;
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«42␤get_pmc_keyed() not implemented in class 'Perl6Str'␤in Main (/tmp/AF0TiLIDi7:1)␤»
jnthn No, you need quotes around the variable if you are using it as a name. 20:06
$obj.$s expects $s to contain a method.
JDlugosz Sayith S12: $obj."$methodname"(1,2,3) # use contents of $methodname as method name
jnthn Right. 20:07
JDlugosz OK, so you still put it in quotes. It interpolates.
jnthn Yes
but $obj."$meth" means something very different from $obj.$meth
brb, getting zmrzlina :-)
JDlugosz The quote tells it to use the string. Different syntax to prevent errors, not because feature is unavailable. 20:08
If the Callable stringifies to the method name, it would mean the same :)
Save that for the "goofy tricks to mess with newbe's" column. 20:09
masak we've also been promised that closures .perlify to their source code whenever possible. :)
JDlugosz Hmm. can't reload the source without the proper closure context to pick up the variables closed over. So that is more for debugging then for marshalling. 20:10
Great for "what is that?" when figuring out why it doesn't work.
jnthn back...and mn'am! :-) 20:11
JDlugosz Seeing for yourself { $field1=$_ } will help you understand why the button isn't exiting the form.
jnthn
.oO( great, now I'm going to blow all my earnings on travel, beer AND this ice cream... )
JDlugosz: Callables won't always stringify to the method name though. :-) 20:12
JDlugosz No, I expect more qualified names at the very least. Just thinking that you could make one that did. 20:13
jnthn You could.
But, well, different syntax for different things. :-)
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jnthn And the difference is even more stark in $obj."@foo" and $obj.@foo ;-) 20:13
masak jnthn: ah, zmrzlina. I get it now. :) 20:14
it's мороженое in Russian. seems related. 20:15
jnthn masak: Yes, that's one of our consonant-deprived words. Best thing is that it's written all over the place, in tourist areas, maintaining the language's terrifying image. ;-)
masak jnthn: does 'zmrzlina' mean 'frozen'?
jnthn: I'm not afraid of consonants. they tried to scare me in Slovenia, but it takes more than a čmrlj to freighten me. :) 20:16
jnthn ;-)
JDlugosz jnthn: where are you located?
masak s/ei/i/
jnthn masak: It's very similar to the word for frozen
masak jnthn: ha! :)
jnthn mrazeny is IIRC the (masc nom) forzen 20:17
icwiener_ There is a sentence in S16 that seems to contains some error but I do not know how to fix it: "The NameServices role has a bunch of functions that between them will return the whole·Name Services database between them, as lists of objects. The lists are specifically·intended to be lazy."
jnthn (adjective)
JDlugosz: I'm currently living in Bratislava, Slovakia.
patmat one question, what can i use in perl 5.10 for "prompt" in perl6 :/ 20:18
masak jnthn: maybe there is a verb zmraz too, which only differs from mraz in aspect?
patmat otherwise id ask in #perl i know there is <STDIN>
jnthn masak: Well, all Slovak verbs end in soft t
mrznut is to freeze
I forget the aspect though :-(
masak oh, ok. 20:19
jnthn looks it up
moritz_ there's IO::Prompt (but Unix only, or so I have been told)
patmat moirtz_ great hanks!
jnthn masak: oh, there's zmrznut too, which is almost certainly the other one
patmat so there is a prompt :)
erm thanks hehe
jnthn masak: I'd expect from instinct that zmrznut must be the "once"
masak jnthn: looks that way, from what you just told me. :)
jnthn Which would fit with with zmrzlina. 20:20
masak uh huh.
periodically frozen ice cream is such a drag.
patmat moritz_ erm how do i use IO::Prompt correctly?
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moritz_ patmat: first you install it, then you follow the docs. 20:21
masak patmat: './proto install io-prompt'
moritz_ masak: wrong major version ;-)
erm, not wrong, but the other one 20:22
patmat i can install it via cpan?
masak no. wrong. :P
patmat ahh i'm such a newbie!!
moritz_ patmat: yes
or if you happen to run Debian, you can do 'aptitude install libio-prompt-perl' 20:23
icwiener_ patmat: If you use Linux, then your distro might have packages.
patmat Ubuntu here :)
icwiener_ Likely the same an Debian then. :) 20:24
patmat hehe ye
moritz_ well, the ubuntu packages might have a brown colour instead ;-)
icwiener_ hehe
20:25 lambdabot joined
masak rakudo: say Nil ~~ List 20:25
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«0␤» 20:26
masak rakudo: say Nil ~~ Positional
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«1␤»
20:30 tulcod joined 20:31 lucs joined 20:33 jferrero joined
jnthn afk for a bit 20:34
patmat hrmm how do i use the IO::Prompt ? 20:35
module
masak as described on its CPAN page?
patmat ahh sorry here it is 20:36
masak there's usually a SYNOPSIS part that gives a useage example.
followed by more exact descriptions about different subs and methods. 20:37
patmat: is there something Perl6-related I can help you with today? :)
patmat masak hehe no thanks didnt have much time to do someething :(( 20:38
masak no wonder, if you keep getting distracted by Perl 5... :P 20:39
patmat hehe
Cannot write to terminal: No such device or address at /home/patmat/code/mauslaus002.pl line 9 20:40
hrm no 20:41
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masak rakudo: sub infix:<.>($a, $b) { say "OH HAI" }; say "OH" . "NOES" 20:50
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤1␤»
masak rakudo: sub infix:<.>($a, $b) { "OH HAI" }; say "OH"."NOES" 20:51
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«Method 'NOES' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤»
masak how magical is the method-call dot? does it count as an ordinary infix op? I know it has some unspace requirements going on, so it would seem it isn't... 20:52
jnthn (away really, drive by comment) I really don't see it as being an ordinary infix op. 20:53
masak no, you're probably right. 20:54
that means that the above is in order.
JDlugosz Anybody know about enum types?
jnthn We don't parse it like any old infix, it's got a syntactic category of its own (dotty)
20:54 payload joined
masak JDlugosz: don't ask to ask. :) 20:55
jnthn JDlugosz: I did Rakudo's implemention, but I forgot about it as quickly as possible again afterwards... ;-)
masak JDlugosz: also known as "I might not know, but I'm curious enough to listen to your question" :) 20:56
jnthn I find that bit of S12 pretty hazy and found it hard to hold together all the demands. But at least the current implemention checks more boxes than the first one.
masak (checking boxes)++
JDlugosz S09 shows lower-case enum to define them, but S03 uses Enum as a type name.
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jnthn I'd mostly just gone on S12. 20:57
masak rakudo: enum A <a b c>; say A.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«A()␤»
masak rakudo: enum A <a b c>; say A ~~ Enum
jnthn std: my Enum $x;
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub Enum␤»
std 26928: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Malformed my at /tmp/RfXn15xCyM line 1:␤------> my Enum $x;␤FAILED 00:02 35m␤»
jnthn JDlugosz: Think S03's Enum type name is legacy.
masak nod. 20:58
jnthn (It doesn't fit with my model of enums from S12.)
JDlugosz I think S03, on smart match, is referring to "some type name that is the name of an enumeration", just like matching class and role.
jnthn Ah, OK.
In that case it may be OK.
masak JDlugosz: but it's listed in the column "Actual type"... 20:59
JDlugosz: and all the others are actual types.
JDlugosz Yes.
masak which seems strange.
JDlugosz That whole line is strange. Class Enum Role are not the actual types, but categories of actual types.
masak at the very least, it should be clearly marked that the name is metasyntactic. 21:00
JDlugosz Just a meta-thing in the text.
masak JDlugosz: aye, you're right.
jnthn std: my Role $x;
p6eval std 26928: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 36m␤»
jnthn Role is a real type name.
Class is maybe not but maybe is and if it is it probably means "something that is a meta-class" but we may end up s/Class/MetaClass/ or something. 21:01
I'm not sure exactly where that'll end up
We just need SomeLabel that we can multi-dispatch on with a metaclass for setting class traits.
masak JDlugosz: S02 also mentions the 'Class' class, but makes it clear that it refers to an Abstraction-like thing, i.e. part of the namespace class hierarchy.
jnthn afk again 21:02
masak hm, that wasn't a very clear explanation on my part.
I interpret 'Class' as per S02 as something akin to 'Module' and 'Package'.
JDlugosz "any type declared using class, enum, or role"
masak rakudo: role A {}; say A ~~ Role 21:03
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«0␤»
JDlugosz Or perhaps it should now refer to "type objects".
masak submits rakudobug
JDlugosz But a type object has the type of that type, not any kind of metaclass type.
Since that is only used in the table for the "type membership" .does(X) test, it's clear that it is meant to be any prototype object, or a named value that is a type. 21:05
The Class Enum Role probably means "named values declared as classes, etc." 21:06
masak it might, but it shouldn't say it like that.
JDlugosz I plan on editing S03 soon anyway. 21:07
Since it's already in $_, it can't be a literal named value. So any prototype object, now called "type object", is what it should say. 21:08
Sorry, that's the X column. It is a literal, not in $_.
So any named value that is a type.
21:09 rewt joined
masak aye. 21:09
JDlugosz A voice crys from the other room, "John.... are we going out?" 21:10
masak of course we are. :)
it's Sunday evening. we always go out on Sundays. 21:11
JDlugosz She means to fix the fence, not to have fun.
masak oh.
um, you go right ahead. I'll... come out a bit later.
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Matt-W hey 21:18
masak: great blog entry
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Matt-W I managed to come stay at my parents' house and not bring my laptop charger, so I've been on no rakudo time whereas I would have done some stuff :( 21:19
TimToady rakudo: sub foo ($x) { say [1,2,$x].elems }; foo(<a b c d>) 21:29
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«3␤»
TimToady that is correct
rakudo: my @a = <a b c d>; my $a := @a; say [1,2,$a].elems
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«6␤»
TimToady that is incorrect 21:30
it is an invariant that $x never interpolates in list context
Matt-W rakudo seems to be paying more attention to that @a it's bound to
TimToady yes, but inconsistently with the sig binding earlier 21:31
Matt-W indeed
not good
no wonder I get confused about list interpolation
masak Matt-W: thank you. :) 21:32
TimToady incidentally, people keep writing "my $x = 1,2,3;" 21:35
this is also incorrect
Matt-W should be [1, 2, 3]?
TimToady (1,2,3) at least
assignment to a scalar limits RHS to tighter than , 21:36
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masak oh! 21:36
Matt-W what should my $x = 1, 2, 3 do?
error or $x == 3 or?
TimToady rakudo: loop (my $a = 1, my $b = 2; $a < 5; $a++, $b++) { say "$a $b" }
masak I actually half-thought that thought earlier on today.
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«Unable to set lvalue on PAST::Val node␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3166)␤»
TimToady that oughta work
masak reports rakudobug 21:37
Matt-W masak: are you taking down bug reports?
TimToady it's not because rakudo is parsing it as a list assignment
masak Matt-W: so it seems. :)
TimToady (a known bug, iirc)
masak searches
we have too many known bugs! :P 21:38
Matt-W perhaps I should take some time to learn how to fix some of them
TimToady that's partly your fault
Matt-W hah
masak :)
Matt-W TimToady: But if he didn't report them, they'd still be there, and known bugs are better than unknown bugs
masak has a tendency to produce lots of known bugs 21:39
Matt-W In a similar way to how a known missing manhole cover on a dark road is better than falling down it
TimToady we'd really like to accumulate a few more known unbugs
masak nope, a cursort glance at a search for 'loop' & queue=perl6 does not yield anything substantial. reporting just in case. 21:40
rakudo: loop (my $a = 1, my $b = 2;0;) { say "$a $b" } 21:42
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«Unable to set lvalue on PAST::Val node␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3166)␤»
masak 'night, all. 21:49
22:04 justatheory joined 22:06 kst joined 22:13 pmurias joined
pmurias hi 22:13
22:14 SamuraiJack joined
sjohnson hi 22:26
ruoso hi pmurias 22:33
pmurias ruoso: hi 22:46
ruoso: i'm thinking about writing a trace gc we could use once in a while to free cycles 22:48
ruoso: as i don't know how to solve some cycles with weakrefs (like $?BLOCK) 22:49
wayland76 ruoso / pmurias: Someone was asking me whether SMOP is ready to install 23:07
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pmurias wayland76: installing smop isn't supported yet 23:19
wayland76 pmurias: Ok, thanks 23:25
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sjohnson rakudo: my $x = 1,2,3; print $x 23:43
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«1 2 3»
sjohnson rakudo: my $x = 1,2,3; print $x.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 23718a: OUTPUT«Array()»

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