»ö« | perl6-projects.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo: / pugs: / std: | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sjohnson on 21 August 2009.
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japhb Is there an example somewhere of defining and using classes in NQP? 00:08
japhb trying to avoid shaving too many yaks before the day is over 00:09
jnthn Any language's action grammar is a class.
And using - TheClassName.new()
I think it only likes the class Foo::Bar; syntax though (over the curly brace one). 00:10
japhb jnthn, AH! That was my mistake!
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japhb Hmmm, still no good. 00:11
jnthn No? Hmm. 00:12
"no good"?
japhb Actually, no, the class Foo { ... } syntax works too. I had an unrelated bug in the same area, which I didn't see because it was valid Perl 6 but not valid NQP. 00:13
jnthn japhb: Oh no, it should be able to take a block
japhb: Ah, so you found 00:14
I was just reading the grammar.
japhb :-)
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japhb jnthn, NQP has no 'use' equivalent, right? Just load_bytecode()? 00:15
jnthn japhb: correct 00:18
japhb jnthn, can you override an NQP class's new()?
jnthn japhb: Should just be able to write a method new
I can't think of any reason off ahnd that would not work.
japhb jnthn, OK. 00:19
jnthn oh, I lied about NQP having no built-ins. It appears it does...
japhb Yeah, found them. Just a couple.
I've been adding back modified versions from Rakudo of a few key builtins and vars.
jnthn Oh, I wonder if we can't see them in Rakudo because we compile the code to PIR, but don't load the NQP library or something.
That's fine.
You can probably negotiate with pmichaud over what can go in and stay in. 00:20
japhb jnthn, for now, I'm just keeping them local to the project, but I may suggest to pmichaud that some standard builtins collections be available. For instance, the "glue" builtins, such as run(), qx(), %*ENV, %*VM, and so on. 00:21
Not as core,
but as a well-known PBC to load if desired. 00:22
jnthn japhb: nod
That makes sense.
japhb The biggest problem I'm having writing NQP is finding sample code that's not a language grammar. :-) 00:25
.oO( I'm writing the sample code that I needed, I guess ... )
 00:26
jnthn You probably are, I'm afraid. 00:27
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Tene jnthn: japhb asked for it, so NQP will have 'use' and 'eval' soon. 00:36
japhb Tene++ # wheeee 00:37
jnthn Tene++
wayland76 Tene++ 00:38
jnthn karma Tene
@karma Tene
lambdabot Tene has a karma of 58
jnthn @dogma Tene
lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
jnthn aww 00:39
japhb OK, I'm getting frustrated with my grepping. How do you define/set attributes for a class in NQP? Alternately, since there's no 'bless' (at least, not in the NQP sources, I suppose it could come from elsewhere in PCT), what do you return from a new() method?
jnthn
.oO( must not make "karma ran over dogma" joke )
japhb: Aww crap. 00:40
japhb: Well at first glance NQP appears to lack "has"
:-/
japhb jnthn, Oh, that's *very* reassuring.
jnthn, yup.
jnthn like, the word doesn't appear in the grammar 00:41
Tene embedded PIR!
japhb jnthn, yup, that's what I saw
jnthn Well yes
That's probably the best bet ATM.
japhb Tene, OK, sure, but we're now beginning to get to things that really ought to be in there without going to inline PIR. 00:42
jnthn japhb: I agree.
japhb Well, at least something *minimal*.
pmichaud, around yet? 00:43
Tene jnthn: you ruin my trolling with your reason. 00:46
wayland76 We have to remember the reasonable defence against trolling next time we get trolls 00:48
But OTOH, it was a successful troll -- it got a response :)
japhb Rrolls rarely enjoy they response that involves getting cleaved. :-) 00:49
er
Trolls
jnthn lol you fail it you can't even spell troll lol 00:50
wayland76 cleave together, or cleave apart?
jnthn ;-)
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japhb The silly thing was my typo was caused by fat-fingering a minor cleanup of an otherwise grammatically correct sentence. Sigh. 00:52
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japhb If I say create a '$OS' variable in PIR using set_hll_global, I still have to say 'our $OS' in NQP before trying to use $OS, or the parser complains of no declaration. Is there some magic way to poke the parser so it knows about the "builtin" global? 01:14
jnthn japhb: afaik no 01:15
japhb: let me glance the source
japhb: Ah 01:18
If you can tweak the outermost block between the past and the post stages, you can probably call .symbol('$OS', 'scope'=>'package')
Oh wait...that's a parser tweak. 01:19
Hmm. I can't think of a good way. Sorry. 01:20
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jnthn japhb: I'll sleep in a moment (very late here...) Any final questions before I go? 01:27
Timed out 01:33
jnthn -> sleep, night all
wayland76 'night :) 01:35
japhb Hope he sleeps well ... and jnthn++ for all the help today 01:39
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ihrd rakudo: my $code = {"Foo"}; my %h = :bar; $code(| %h); 02:53
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carlin heh, it killed the bot 03:09
ihrd :( 03:10
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PerlJam @tell alester Several pages on rakudo.org go to a blank page (/documentation, /community, /developers-guide, /status). Same thing happens when I attempt to login. 03:40
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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japhb gitorious.org/parrot-plumage/parrot-plumage 04:23
jnthn, pmichaud: Note especially the NQP section of gitorious.org/parrot-plumage/parrot...aster/TODO 04:24
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s1n jnthn: i created a really nice work-around for the interim, it took several hours of thinking and 2 minutes to implement, it's _far_ from perfect, but i'm going to use it for now 05:14
jnthn: i'll send it to you tomorrow 05:15
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moritz_ good morning 06:04
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japhb Good morning, moritz_ 06:07
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japhb use.perl.org/~geoffrey/journal/39516 06:30
moritz_ japhb++ 06:33
japhb moritz_, thx!
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Su-Shee heyho :) 07:00
moritz_ ho yo!
sjohnson hi! 07:01
07:02 moritz_ sets mode: +oo japhb Su-Shee
Su-Shee *hihi* perl on android. :) 07:02
carlin perl on android? 07:08
Su-Shee google phone. code.google.com/p/android-scripting...o_world.pl 07:10
ihrd japhb++ 07:11
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japhb ihrd, thx! 07:13
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Kentrak Anyone here know the state of proto/multi in objects? 07:22
Trying to define another .new and finding that it makes the original .new no longer accessible. Not sure if it's a bug in the object code and .new isn't defined as proto, or if it's a multiple dispatch bug. 07:23
moritz_ good question 07:24
rakudo: class A { multi new ($x) { } }; A.new()
bah, p6eval is gone (server down)
lisppaste3 kentrak pasted "untitled" at paste.lisp.org/display/85940 07:25
Kentrak paste.lisp.org/display/85940 should show the problem somewhat succinctly... although I just realized I should have included the output of the latest rakudo build. 07:26
carlin Su-Shee: nice, I knew ASE had accepted the suggestion to add perl but I didn't think it was close to being released 07:27
lisppaste3 kentrak annotated #85940 "untitled" at paste.lisp.org/display/85940#1
moritz_ Kentrak: this is a bug in rakudo. If your custom new method would have hidden the default constructure, you'd have gotten a dispatch error 07:28
Kentrak: could you please submit a bug report to [email@hidden.address]
Kentrak yep
Just wanted to check before submitting. :)
moritz_ great 07:29
Kentrak Also, is there a defined object method for determining the available mthods/submethods an object has? 07:32
moritz_ you can loook at Class.^methods(:local) for example 07:33
or ask about specific methods with .can or .^can
don't know how any of those deal with submethods though
Kentrak moritz_: ah. Somehow missed the introspection part of S12. Thanks
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moritz_ Kentrak: if the specs are confusing (which wouldn't surprise me) you might also look at the tests in t/spec/S12-introspection/ 07:34
rakudo passes all of them right now 07:35
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Matt-W Morning 07:36
Kentrak moritz_: thanks, on the right track now. 07:37
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jaffa8 hi 08:09
moritz_ hi japhb
erm, hi jaffa8
sorry, tab fail :-)
jaffa8 has anyone tried to compile std.pm?
Because I cannot
moritz_ worked for me last I tried
jaffa8 in what version? 08:10
I get an error
Statement not terminated properly at line 171, near "= %::($var"
moritz_ what exactly did you do?
jaffa8 I wrote a small program
use STD;
my $e=1;
and ran perl6.exe on it. 08:11
moritz_ that's not how it works
rakudo can't run it yet
cd pugs/src/perl6
make
# and hope
I don't know if anybody tried it on windows though
jaffa8 the lesson is 08:16
never base a project on one person.
moritz_ jaffa8: you're very welcome to increase our bus number 08:17
jaffa8 what is bus?
moritz_ www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?BusNumber 08:18
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jaffa8 IS that a joke? 08:19
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moritz_ no, it's serious 08:19
just that people don't have to be hit by a bus to drop out of a project 08:20
they can just have a shift of interest, illness, a new job with no time left, whatever
jaffa8 exactly
the term is oversimplifying
moritz_ yes, but it's catchy :-) 08:21
it has a nice second conotation
a bus is a communication medium
so if you have bus number of 1, only one person can efficiently program on that project 08:22
jaffa8 so what is the bus number of rakudo?
moritz_ 2, I'd say 08:23
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jaffa8 Specifically, who are they? 08:24
moritz_ jnthn and pmichaud
ihrd ah, good link 08:29
moritz_++ 08:30
jaffa8 moritz_, why is catch in uppercase? 08:33
it does not look logical to me...
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moritz_ jaffa8: all special blocks are, to make them stand out 08:34
BEGIN, END, CATCH, CONTROL, PRE, POST, CHECK, INIT - you name it
it's not only that they stand out - they might also be very useful names for the programmer to use for own stuff
jaffa8 it does look a big deal to me 08:35
it does not look a big deal to me
masak greetings, perl6ers.
jaffa8: you are so full of paradox!
moritz_ oh hai masak
ihrd moritz_: I find out why I had the strange error while 'make' tests 08:36
moritz_ ihrd: what was it?
ihrd moritz_: It`s just another one Test.pir in my system
moritz_ oh. was it in PERL6LIB or something? 08:37
ihrd yes, I just rm all of them, remake spectest and it works for now
masak that's a weak definition of 'finding out' :) 08:38
oh, another Test.pir. sorry. :/
yesterday in a blog comment I argued against having several Test.pm (and, by extension, Test.pir) copies spread out over different repos. 08:39
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masak I don't think it's the responsibility of an average Perl 6 project to hold or copy in Test.pm. 08:39
I think it only leads to chaos and bitrot. 08:40
ihrd masak: yes, we should use one
masak: and send patches instead of tweaking our own Test.pm :) 08:41
masak maybe this is the right moment to finally codify the first practice in wtop...
ihrd: oh, absolutely. :)
jaffa8 masak: what makes you think that?
What is the paradox? 08:42
masak <jaffa8> it does look a big deal to me
<jaffa8> it does not look a big deal to me
jaffa8 it was a typo 08:43
the main problems with perl 6 now
compiler is slow
the design is not implemented
the error messages are not the best
std.pm cannot be compiled. 08:44
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jaffa8 not a big deal 08:44
ihrd masak: sorry, I do`t catch, what is wtop?
masak ihrd: it's a project mberends and I thought up: "Well-Thought-Out Practices". kind of like Perl::Critic for Perl 6 projects. 08:45
ihrd masak: ah, thank you.
jaffa8 masak: I was responsing on moritz_'s response. 08:46
he wrote that INIT is an uppercase to allow the programmer to use init for his own use. 08:47
masak jaffa8: that's one of the reasons, yes.
jaffa8 it would not bother me if INIT was in lower.
I would use init_program
or init_parsing
or whatever if it were a keyword 08:48
masak jaffa8: another reason is that INIT is special in that it runs automatically.
jaffa8: I'm glad it would hypothetically not bother you.
Matt-W moritz_: great blog post on object creation btw. Liked it a lot.
moritz_++
08:49 Matt-W sets mode: +o masak
masak jaffa8: I'm also happy that Perl 6 gets out of the way in the way it does for common keywords. 08:49
moritz_ Matt-W: thanks, and glad that I could be of help
masak the sigils help a lot with that, of course.
ihrd ah, yes, join one's voice to that
I post link in my own blog :)
Matt-W the all-caps stuff is a nice hint that Something Special Is Happening
a bit like .WHAT and .HOW and friends 08:50
masak indeed. 08:51
moritz_ just like BUILD 08:52
sjohnson Perl 6 Is A Big Deal 08:55
:)
masak sjohnson: :)
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moritz_ btw the server on which p6eval is hosted is down 09:00
I apologize for the inconenience
$ ssh [email@hidden.address]
ssh_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host
masak moritz_: no problem. thanks for a generally very consistent service. 09:01
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moritz_ you're very welcome. 09:01
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jaffa8 moritz_, what is your role in Perl 6? 09:15
masak moritz_ is our teddy bear. we hug him when we need to hug someone. 09:16
he's also excellent at writing spectests and blog posts.
moritz_ lol
jaffa8: according to masak <use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39445> I'm a Priest :-)
masak oh, right. Priest. 09:17
moritz_ teddy priest?
masak I get those two mixed up sometimes.
moritz_ jaffa8: we don't have fixed roles. I do what's necessary and within my scope
masak moritz_: now that creates interesting mental images.
moritz_++
moritz_ and I try to have fun along the way, which mostly works very well
carlin www.bearfamilygifts.com/bear/priest...-lisar.jpg 09:18
moritz_ can somewhat identify with that picture 09:19
masak carlin: wow. 09:20
that's uncanny.
Matt-W seems to recall classifying himself as a Warrior/Priest/Archer with Mage ambitions 09:24
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masak something like that here too. 09:25
Matt-W Most of my Perl 6 time is Priest though 09:26
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masak most of mine is Warrior, closely followed by Archer. 09:30
jaffa8 moritz_,your role seems to be pretty fixed to me. 09:31
moritz_ jaffa8: how so?
jaffa8 you are writing blogs. 09:32
Is that all ,right?
masak certainly not.
moritz_ is all over the place.
moritz_ lunch&
masak even in the canteen!
jaffa8 evangelist?
moritz_ runs IRC logs, evalbot, the test suite, several Perl 6 apps, rakudo patches, ... 09:33
really lunch&
masak jaffa8: well, no need to bring religion into it, but sure.
Matt-W moritz_ is part of the glue which holds the project together
jaffa8 masak, I just read it
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jaffa8 evangelist 09:33
it is used in programming field 09:34
masak moritz_ is a very important cog in the machinery that keeps moving Perl 6 forward day by day.
jaffa8: yes, because people keep applying religious metaphors to programming.
jaffa8: like the Emacs/vim "holy wars".
I've never truly grokked such exclusionist views of things. 09:35
but maybe that's not what you meant.
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jaffa8 where is the exclusism in being an evangelist? 09:37
exclusionism 09:38
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masak I was talking about the danger of exclusionism in applying the religion metaphor to the computer world. 09:39
being an evangelist is fine, it's just not a word I tend to use to describe the concept. 09:40
also, much of the promotion for Perl 6 that I see favourably brings in other languages, comparing and contrasting.
Perl tends to do that a lot, given its very horizontal heritage. 09:41
jaffa8: but you shouldn't pidgeon-hole moritz_ as only a PR man. he does a lot more around here.
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masak seems HTML 5 people have to be very clear about when HTML 5 will be 'ready': html5doctor.com/2022-or-when-will-h...-be-ready/ 09:48
Matt-W o/ wayland76
wayland76 hi :). I'll likely be in and out, because I'm trying to beat xorg into submission at the moment, and I'm using an X-based IRC client 09:49
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jaffa8 masak: Are you taking this thing a way too seriously? 09:50
wayland76 My answer is who cares, because XHTML2 is better than HTML 5 anyway :)
masak wayland76: :)
sri_kraih falls off his chair laughing
masak wayland76: wasn't XHTML2 scrapped?
wayland76 No, just some people got in a snit and developed HTML 5 as a competitor :) 09:51
masak jaffa8: with 'this thing', do you mean computers? religion? life?
I tend to take all those a little too seriously, I think. 09:52
carlin wayland76: tech.slashdot.org/story/09/07/03/14...-Cancelled
jaffa8 masak: I mean the importance of what I think of moritz_
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wayland76 Ah, well, I looked into the whole thing earlier this year, so I guess I missed that one :) 09:52
Thanks :)
masak jaffa8: I'm just trying to guide you into seeing more aspects of moritz_. your current view seems a bit... one-sided. 09:53
wayland76 Does that mean that we never get XForms? 09:54
masak wayland76: we already have XForms, no?
wayland76 Do we? 09:56
What standard is it part of?
masak I always thought it was a standard on its own.
Matt-W it is
masak but frankly, I'm not well versed in XForms.
Matt-W XForms can fit into any XML application
thanks to the wonder of namespaces
but it was kind of intended for XHTML2 09:57
masak :/
wayland76 Yes, but what about using them on the web?
Matt-W which was, in itself, pretty damn cool
oh well you need a browser which supports them...
there was a firefox extension which added xforms support at one point
but that was a long time ago
wayland76 Yeah, I don't care too much about XHTML2 itself, more about XForms and things like that.
Matt-W sadly I think they'll be gone in favour of ordinary crappy forms and lots of javascript :(
wayland76 There's still a Firefox/Seamonkey extension that does XForms
masak theoretically, some browser could just go ahead and add full XHTML2 support, right?
Matt-W oh yes
but they won't
masak :( 09:58
wayland76 Well, apparently there's a namespace conflict between XHTML2 and HTML5
Matt-W well that was stupid wasn't it
masak namespace conflict?!
Matt-W shouldn't XHTML2's be www.w3.org/$year/xhtml2 09:59
wayland76 Oh, seems like I ingested some FUD
Matt-W there's a lot of FUD about XHTML2
wayland76 one guy said namespace conflict, another said not
Matt-W some people saw a lack of backward compatibility and went mad 10:00
it's a bit like Perl 6 in that respect
only Perl 6 will not be scrapped
masak *phew*
wayland76 Oh well, when Perl 6 is done, XHTML2 will be a simple matter of programming :) 10:01
masak wonders if there'll be a "save HTML2" movement
Matt-W everyone's looking at HTML5 10:02
bloody web applications
mumble mumble
I do NOT want to write my desktop software in HTML!
it's not meant for it!
masak it's inevitable.
Matt-W no it's not
especially if people stop saying it's inevitable 10:03
masak :)
Matt-W I don't mind so much the idea of using browser tech
but HTML is ridiculously unsuitable
it's not even very good at normal documents
wayland76 Includentally, XHTML2 works partly now: w3future.com/weblog/gems/xhtml2.xml 10:04
Matt-W I know people do impressive things with it, but it's usually because they're very clever or very persistent rather than because the tools are good
jaffa8 masak: ok
masak jaffa8: sorry if I seemed overboard in any way. :) it was not my intent. 10:05
wayland76 ...it's just the way he is :)
masak 哈哈
wayland76 That's why he fits in here :)
masak Perl 6: all overboard!
carlin I don't mind HTML, but JS/AJAX is painful 10:06
masak carlin: it's mainly the DOM that's painful.
JS in itself is a quite endurable language... with a bad rep.
wayland76 Well, XHTML2 would seriously reduce the amount of JS due to having cooler forms features :)
The problem with JS is that it's not Perl 6, but apart from that, it's not too bad :) 10:07
masak wayland76: I could dig out the guy who said it, but I forgot his name right now: "given that JavaScript was promoted to the ubiquitous programming language almost completely by accident... we could have ended up much worse." 10:08
jaffa8 masak, what is the meaning of overboard in this context? 10:09
masak jaffa8: exaggerated.
jaffa8 And what have you exaggerated?
wayland76 Life, the universe, and everything :) 10:10
masak I have exaggerated my breakfast. and yet, I'm hungry.
jaffa8 ok, that I am one-sided? 10:11
Or the importance of all of this?
or what?
masak jaffa8: the importance of all of this.
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masak jaffa8: it's nice talking to you and all... but I get the feeling sometimes that you either do not have a 100% grip on the language, or you like living under bridges and taking toll fees from people who pass. 10:13
wayland76 Btw, I often wear a hat like that teddy bear :)
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masak wayland76: I think that might suit you very well. :) 10:13
wayland76: in the future, I will picture you with that kind of hat when we chat. :) 10:14
wayland76 jaffa8: Watch this
@karma-all
lambdabot "ethanbot2" 1454
"moritz" 978
"pmichaud" 643
"jnthn" 584
"lwall" 577
[1922 @more lines]
wayland76 I don't know how ethanbot2-- got up there, but you'll notice that moritz_ has the highest karma around here 10:15
masak: Are you on Facebook? 10:16
masak wayland76: heavens, no.
I don't agree to their idea that the Web should have walls.
wayland76 No? Ok. I don't follow it much, but it's useful for finding people that I kind of know, but not well enough that I see them often
Not even walls with graffiti on them? 10:17
masak maybe that kind of wall.
but not walls which you cannot see over.
Larry Wall is allowed, too.
wayland76 So you don't like that lots of Facebook is password protected? 10:19
Did you know that you can make your own part not password protected?
masak wayland76: I don't not like it, I just stay away from it. it's not my Web.
wayland76 Ok. 10:20
masak phenny: tell jnthn that I hear some people wanting user-defined FETCH/STORE. is that on some schedule? I don't see it in docs/ROADMAP...
phenny masak: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
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masak wayland76: same reasoning as writing open-source software, actually. it lasts longer and feels more meaningful. 10:21
Matt-W I basically only use Facebook to communicate with a certain group of people
I no longer view it as a means to create content 10:22
wayland76 No, I don't regard it as a way of creating content
Matt-W I did for a brief, foolish few days
wayland76 But, for example, I met a guy recently, and all I know is his name and his brother. I haven't seen or heard from the brother in months, and have no contact details for either, but because the brother is my facebook friend, I could write and ask for the other brother's e-mail address 10:23
Su-Shee I clicked me with the same people I already clicked in orkut, xing and so on and now everybody has clicked each other again so we can go back to business. ;)
wayland76 I'm basically only on Facebook. I have a MySpace, but nothing ever happens there, except the occasional message from a band I like 10:24
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Matt-W I despise MySpace 10:25
Not on a conceptual level
Because that's not really any different to any of the others
but because their design and markup is so incredibly horrible
wayland76 Yeah, I've noticed that. I had to put in a good solid effort to make it look alright :) 10:26
Matt-W I didn't even try
I've only got an account to help me poke around in other people's :)
my profile contains nothing at all
Facebook I approve of more because they start out with a pretty decent design and don't let people break it 10:27
shame about the apps platform
Su-Shee ah well.. I have irc. :)
wayland76 What's wrong with the apps platform?
Matt-W silly games
I get an endless stream of invites from games and quizzes my contacts are playing 10:28
Su-Shee which mostly already were silly web games ;)
Matt-W yes but I could ignore them more effectively then
wayland76 I'm messaging a few people my myspace URL because I don't want it in the logs, etc :)
masak: Another good reason to get Facebook ... there are pictures of my hat :) 10:30
Su-Shee iiiih wayland76 - it's _translated_ :))
masak wayland76: as irresistable as that sounds...
wayland76 Su-Shee: Is that a problem? 10:32
Su-Shee wayland76: oh yes :) because it's an automated translatation. sounds plain "off" :) 10:33
wayland76 Ah, well, just look at my picture then :)
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Su-Shee looks very country. :) 10:33
wayland76 :) 10:34
With a cravat?
Well, maybe :)
But if you put that hat from the teddy bear on me.... :) 10:35
10:36 moritz_ sets mode: +o wayland76
Su-Shee my office view says "swimming pool", "cafe", "river" and all this in bright sunlight... how very motivating...;) 10:40
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jnthn dobry den, #perl6 10:52
phenny jnthn: 10:20Z <masak> tell jnthn that I hear some people wanting user-defined FETCH/STORE. is that on some schedule? I don't see it in docs/ROADMAP...
masak lolitsjnthn
jnthn masak: It may not be too hard to do, just need to work out exactly how.
masak \o/ 10:53
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jaffa8 wayland76, what has popularity have to do with anything? 11:33
jnthn Gah, my brane won't work today. :-/ 11:36
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wayland76 jaffa8: Well, he gets the karma when he's been helpful in some way 11:49
Although the number of helps is what counts -- a big help counts for the same as a small one :)
masak ...which promotes long-term helpfulness, not just one-off stunts. 11:50
wayland76 offers jnthn an oil filter for his brain
Well, my point is, moritz_ does lots of little things around, and that's what got him the karma. Our higher-level mages don't have the same level, but tend to produce their help in larger blocks. 11:51
masak (and karma gets reset occasionally, making it even more approximate) 11:56
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takadonet morning all 11:58
11:58 yves joined
masak takadonet: o/ 11:59
takadonet masak: How are you doing today?
masak takadonet: I am doing adequately, thank you. and you? 12:00
takadonet masak: Doing good
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jaffa8 Is there a webpage where I can try long programs on std 12:07
?
12:08 mikehh left
polettix rakudo: my @a; my $x = 1; @a.push($x); $x++; @a.say; 12:08
uhm, no 12:09
carlin polettix: the bot is offline
masak polettix: evalbot's server is down. :/
polettix ach
I get 2 printed in rakudo, I'd expect 1
jnthn known
polettix ok
jnthn (yes, bug)
masak polettix: but thanks. :)
jnthn I did try fixing it once and oddly it broke Other Things. :-/ 12:10
polettix fine, I'll add an "as copy" then :)
s/as/is/ 12:11
masak polettix++ # works around 12:13
jnthn should maybe try and fix it tomorrow. 12:14
polettix complaint-driven development? :)
moritz_ jnthn: are you doing a rakudo day tomorrow? 12:15
polettix: we partly do that, yes.
jnthn moritz_: Aye, plan to.
polettix well, I'm not complaining anyway, playing with perl6 is awesome 12:16
carlin it's the best kind of development, given that everything no one uses works fine ;)
jnthn prefers to call it "feedback driven development" :-)
polettix [performance apart of course :)]
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masak carlin: :) 12:18
polettix: Rakudo is awesome, the performance is a...w...e...s...o...m...e...
takadonet man.... it really suck trying to keep 3 computers with latest version of rakudo. Always confuses me why some tests pass on certain computers and not others. Till I realizes forgot to update rakudo. 12:20
jnthn Good job pmichaud and I are both planning on improvements that will aid performance in various areas then. :-)
takadonet excellent
masak takadonet: make it a one-keypress action to update. 12:21
jnthn Plus the Parrot folks are building profiling tools to help us know why we're slow.
Matt-W ooh good for them
jnthn But yes, I fully agree - performance is sucky.
takadonet masak: I do but still forget to update :)
masak takadonet: update every morning with your morning yoghurt. I do. :)
takadonet I should 12:22
moritz_ doesn't eat yoghurt regularly, but still updates his rakudo regularly :-)
masak smiles and plays "Living on the edge"
Matt-W bleeds a lot 12:23
carlin it's a sign of a balanced lifestyle; maintaining a good yoghurt:rakudo-updates ratio 12:24
wayland76 I eat yoghurt more regularly :)
masak we have a fair number of branches on github.com/rakudo/rakudo/ -- are there any outdated ones that can be removed? 12:27
moritz_ the autounfudge-with-limits and mail-patch branches are still valuable 12:28
jnthn Probably
moritz_ I doubt that ins and ins2 are of any use though (maybe pmichaud can comment) 12:29
jnthn In half an hour, that github page will have loaded, and I'll tell you.
masak :)
moritz_ jnthn: git-branch -r also shows all remote branches 12:30
jnthn got the page with the crying thingy that looks like a cat and an octopus had a kid together
wayland76 Wait, doesn't the latest rakudo include the changes from ins2? 12:31
jnthn wayland76: yes
wayland76 ins is dead
moritz_ wayland76: which is why we don't need that branch anymore
wayland76 Ah, I see the question now :)
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jaffa8 Whare are talking about the speed of the compiler or the speed of generated code? 12:57
jnthn jaffa8: Both.
moritz_ mostly of the generated code, I think
but many performance improvements will affect both
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jaffa8 I wonder 12:59
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jaffa8 Is there any optimasion in parrot? 12:59
I mean automatic one.
What is the objective performance of Perl 6? 13:01
Has anyone measured that?
moritz_ the JIT runcore can be seen as optimization 13:02
Perl 6 is a language specification, and as such has no performance
only implementations have performance
and rakudo is currently ~500 times slower than perl5
13:02 _jaldhar left
jaffa8 I mean implementation 13:02
13:03 _jaldhar joined
jaffa8 In what? 13:03
What is slower?
The code execution?
moritz_ running a simple program in both 13:04
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moritz_ including compilation and run time 13:04
anyway, feel free to do your own benchmark
jaffa8 what about runtime in itself without compilation?
moritz_ (and be sure to compile parrot with --optimize for fairness)
I don't know, never tried.
jaffa8 I suspect compilation accounts for most of it. 13:05
moritz_ don't suspect. Try it!
jaffa8 It toook 5:40 seconds 13:06
to compile 3000 lines program
and give an error message
I have a look 13:07
jnthn Is that 5 mins 40 seconds or 5.4 seconds?
jaffa8 5 minutes
jnthn wow
masak that's... slow.
jnthn Unusually slow. 13:08
masak aye.
compilation here takes seconds, not minutes.
jaffa8 if I just use configure.pl
What kind of code would that produce? 13:09
Debugged or optimised?
moritz_ debugging
jaffa8: try perl Configure --gen-parrot --gen-parrot-option=--optimize 13:10
and then rebuild
and try again
should be about 30% faster, or so
jaffa8 30%?
that is not mch
masak: How big is your code? 13:11
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masak jaffa8: good question. hold on. 13:11
jaffa8 it is 5:30 seconds. 13:14
now
What have you expected?
How should It be?
How fast should It be?
Should it compile it in 10 seconds? 13:15
Is it backtracking parser?
Is rakudo a backtracking parser? 13:16
takadonet Looks like someone is on a coffee high...
masak :) 13:17
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jnthn jaffa8: No, it (hardly ever) backtracks. 13:20
jaffa8: I'd expect an order of magnitude performance gain on the parsing once we have proto-regexes in place. 13:21
And are using those.
Since those drastically cut down the search space.
At the moment we try a lot of things when parsing that we coulda ruled out in advance.
jaffa8 no cofee, just me. 13:22
takadonet jaffa8: Good to hear
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masak jaffa8: the November codebase is ~2000 lines of code (incl empty lines and comments) spread over ~20 .pm files. it takes 50 seconds for Rakudo to parse it all on my computer, 13:27
so, about 40 lines per second. 13:29
wayland76 'night all 13:31
masak wayland76: o/
Su-Shee does p6 have a goto? :) 13:32
jaffa8 Whare you?
Whare are you?
moritz_ Su-Shee: afaict yes
wayland76 Australia
masak buubot: spack goto
buubot masak: Couldn't match input.
masak :/
Su-Shee: anyway, it's in S04. 13:33
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Su-Shee hrmpf. ;) 13:35
now I can't reasonably say "it has to go, won't exist in p6 anymore anyway!" ;)
masak Su-Shee: goto is a reasonable, very simple construct. we have abstracted away most of its uses in loops and if statements, but it can still be useful in its bare form. 13:37
moritz_ masak: simple? I doubt that 13:38
masak: you know there are scopes to consider...
masak moritz_: that is true.
jnthn tbh, I haven't got the slightest clue how on earth we're going to make goto work.
moritz_ if it were all that simple, rakudo would support it by now
jaffa8 yes, goto looks simple 13:39
Matt-W Make it only work within the same scope
jaffa8 there is goto in PIR
Matt-W But don't tell anybody
masak moritz_: one could support a limited form of it... in-scope goto or some such.
jnthn jaffa8: lol
moritz_ wonders if TimToady insists on having a general goto
Su-Shee let it silently die. :)
moritz_ or mark it as post-6.0
jnthn jaffa8: The goto in PIR is also block-limited.
Matt-W general goto is just too painful 13:40
jnthn sub foo { label: if 42 { goto label; } } # own't work, goto is in a different block
*won't
Matt-W also almost completely useless
moritz_ so can be omitted altogether :-) 13:41
jaffa8 what about the assembler?
pasm?
moritz_ PIR doesn't have scopes as Perl 6
neither does PASM
carlin Whenever conversation starts about goto I'm reminded of this: xkcd.com/292/
Matt-W that might have to go up on my desk at work 13:42
jaffa8 jnthn,, moritz_ says there are not scopes in PIR 13:44
Matt-W no, he said there aren't scopes like Perl 6's 13:45
doesn't mean it doesn't have its own
jnthn jaffa8: Perl 6 block == Parrot Sub.
jaffa8 I guess there is if block as well 13:49
and loop block
jnthn A form of goto that only lets you jump within the current scope or to a lexical outer scope would probably be do-able without excessive pain, and cover a lot of the use cases. 13:50
Matt-W it's the only time I ever use it 13:51
jaffa8 why? SHould goto be able to jump into another procedure?
Matt-W noooooooooooooo
carlin But not implementing it would be completely painless and lower raptor deaths
Matt-W jnthn: put it down for after Rakudo Star 13:52
jaffa8 programming ne pain. IMO.
jnthn Matt-W: I suspect it already was. :-)
Matt-W jnthn: no doubt
far more important things to worry about
jnthn Matt-W: Unless some enterprising soul comes along and implements it, it's unlikely to happen before then. 13:53
jaffa8 if ($programming eq "pain") { print "this is something wrong"}
jnthn I'm uninterested in implementing it.
Matt-W jnthn: I'm not going to take that bait
Su-Shee I'll refactor my gotos here into perl nirvana anyway. I've never once used goto in Perl.
jaffa8 Su-Shee, it is only about you, it is about humanity 13:54
s/it is/it is not/
Su-Shee yeah, but I just asked for it. ;) 13:55
carlin humanity would be better off without goto :)
Matt-W humanity does not require goto in Perl 6
jaffa8 Are you sure?
Matt-W yes
however, there may be some benefit from a sane version 13:56
jaffa8 I think it is like hyperjump, Stargate, instantenous travelling.
Su-Shee jaffa8: yeah and years later everybody asks themselves how they ended up here. ;)
carlin Yes, pity it's difficult to do that travelling while reading the code
jaffa8 With a good ide, you can travel. 13:57
within a sec.
Matt-W I'm not sure there's any kind of IDE which can help you make sense of goto-spaghetti
jaffa8 there may be visual representation of the code 13:58
Also, who said it should be overused?
Su-Shee my goto here is a replacement for checking for some settings first. instead, it jumps into goto "when the setting situation comes along" instead of checking it first and depend everything else later on the setting. 14:00
Matt-W I am admittedly usually the last person to argue in favour of avoiding a potentially troublesome language feature 14:02
But unrestricted goto is just too horrible to contemplate
moritz_ "As in Perl 5, it is possible to goto into a lexical scope, but only for lexical scopes that require no special initialization of parameters" 14:04
that's not unrestricted at all
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moritz_ it means you can't goto into a method, for example 14:04
Matt-W that's acceptable :) 14:05
moritz_ recommends reading S04
"You may not go into a given or a for, though, because that would bypass a formal parameter binding" 14:06
uhm, but doesn't 'if' also do formal parameter binding?
if $x -> $y { say $y }
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Matt-W It does if you do that form of if 14:08
but surely the ordinary form doesn't
if $x { say "cow"; }
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jnthn The branch re-dispatch-1 can go. 14:25
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masak jnthn: done. 14:30
jnthn masak++ 14:31
masak the syntax is `git push origin :re-dispatch-1` for some inscrutable reason.
"strangely inconsistent" :P 14:32
moritz_ do you have to delete them first locally? 14:33
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masak moritz_: not that I know. 14:33
but I didn't have a local copy of that branch, so maybe. 14:34
ah. reading the manpage for 'git push' makes it a little less arbitrary having the colon there. 14:35
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masak what happens if you pass a positional, and then the same argument as a named parameter? 14:39
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moritz_ presumable the same as if you passed the same twice as named 14:40
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masak last-one-wins? 14:43
moritz_ dunno
masak ISTR that was the behaviour for two nameds.
moritz_ rakudo: sub a (:$b) { say $b }; a(:b(4), :b(1))
DAMMIT
masak :)
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moritz_ mlenz@wvbh074:~$ perl6 -e 'sub a (:$b) { say $b }; a(:b(4), :b(1))' 14:45
duplicate named argument - 'b' not expected
jnthn++ # don't know if that's how it's specced - but the error message is awesome
jnthn moritz_: Heh, that's a Parrot error message actually. ;-) 14:46
moritz_ oh
jnthn moritz_: BTW, is that the correct semantics?
moritz_ parrot++ then
jnthn: no idea.
pmurias ruoso: hi 14:47
moritz_ S06 doesn't seem to mention it 14:48
masak "Perl 6 allows multiple same-named arguments, and records the relative order of arguments with the same name. When there are more than one argument, the C<@> sigil in the parameter list causes the arguments to be concatenated [...] Other sigils bind only to the I<last> argument with that name"
moritz_ oh
masak I had to look a while for it, too. 14:49
jnthn ouch
That's going to be fun to implement. :-)
masak :)
jnthn Good job we're moving away from Parrot's binder. :-)
moritz_ well, maybe there's room for negotiation here
I don't think it's particularly useful 14:50
Matt-W I can see uses for it
moritz_ it can generate hard to debug errors
Matt-W but yes, it could
moritz_ foo(:a, :b, [ten more lines] :!a)
"I called it a with :a, why is :$a false?" 14:51
Matt-W because you aren't reading your code properly!
at least we *have* named arguments
maybe multiple named arguments should be something the routine has to say it accepts 14:52
not entirely sure about the utility of accepting multiple ones when it just uses the last silently
jnthn BTW, for those interested in module install etc toolchain stuff for Perl 6, Alias just pointed out on #parrot the #toolchain channel, which may be a source of input.
masak Matt-W: flattened hashes.
pmurias where can i find the remains of the perl 5 to perl 6 translator? 14:53
moritz_ masak: that's the one use case I could think of
jnthn (It was mentioned in the context of the Parrot module stuff that japhb was playing with, but may be applicable here.)
jaffa8 What is the story of perl 5 to perl 6 translator? 14:55
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moritz_ jaffa8: Perl 5 has a backend (MAD) which emits something XML-like for perl 5 code 14:57
pmurias it used to be a gsoc project
moritz_ jaffa8: and there was a gsoc project to translate that into Perl 6 code 14:58
pmurias it lived in the pugs repo from what i can remember
moritz_ iirc the source code is stil in the pugs repo
ruoso hi pmurias
Matt-W I didn't know about that
jaffa8 Is Mad complete? 14:59
pmurias ruoso: do you know where should we replace the smopp5 runloop with the polymorphic one? 15:00
jaffa8: it used to preserve all info
re translator misc/pX/Common/P5_to_P6_Translation 15:01
pmichaud good morning, #perl6 15:03
masak morning, pm.
moritz_ oh hai pmichaud
Matt-W oh hai! 15:04
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masak if I could make a modest proposal for a spec simplification, it would be this: for nameds not coming in through hashes, disallow duplicate nameds, period. allow a flattened hash to either override (if it comes after) or be overridden by (if it comes before) the explicit named params. 15:06
moritz_ is that really simpler?
masak I think so. 15:07
jnthn pmichaud: morning
masak it would catch coding errors in the form of accidentally duplicated nameds.
it would also cause saner semantics for nameds whose values are lists. 15:08
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pmurias would it be worthwhile to revive the p5 to p6 translator? 15:11
masak pmichaud: I've been admiring compilers/pge/PGE/Exp.pir today. :)
pmurias: I think so.
moritz_ pmurias: IMHO it would make to wait until the possible targets support more of Perl 6
*make sense* 15:12
pmichaud masak: where "admiring" == "in complete awe of how someone can make such a big mess of things?" ;-)
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carlin are +<= / +>= mention anywhere in the specs? Couldn't find them in S03 (and it would be a big help if they were in Differences.pod ;) ) 15:12
masak pmichaud: it's not a big mess.
pmichaud :-)
masak pmichaud: for what it does, it's quite well organized.
pmurias moritz: rakudo supports most of the common stuff doesn't it?
pmichaud masak: thanks
moritz_ pmurias: and it would make sense to write it in Perl 6. Haskell hackers are hard to find within the perl community
masak pmichaud: of course, PIR-producing PIR is scary in itself... :P
moritz_ pmurias: for some value of "common", yes :-)
pmurias moritz_: the orginal code is very poorly written so it's not really worth keeping it 15:13
masak or you could write it in Perl 5, and conv... oh wait.
jnthn The translator being able to translate itself would be kind the point you know that it's really working. :-) 15:14
moritz_ I see two options for a 5 -> 6 converter
either it works like a normal compiler, and produces code that doesn't have much in common with the source 15:15
masak jnthn: true. you could run both it and it-but-converted on itself, and see if they both produce the same Perl 6 program. :)
moritz_ or it tries to do some fuzzy translation, which will not always be what the users wants, but much closer to the source, and more readable
pmurias i think the second choice is preferable 15:16
masak but teh hard.
moritz_ too
but it wouldn't be able to bootstrap :-)
pmurias why not? if you avoid things that don't translate it should bootstrap itself easily 15:17
moritz_ anyway, if it were my project I'd write it in Perl 6 in the first place 15:18
pmurias most of the stuff in p5 could be translated fairly easily
moritz_ however there's not yet a Perl 5 grammar available in Perl 6, so it might be worth using PPI 15:19
Su-Shee <-- home. later.
pmurias why not use MAD?
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masak does MAD work for 5.10? 15:20
moritz_ it should
it's not very convenient though
you have to specially compile your Perl 5 to use it
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moritz_ but of course it's the option that offers the most accurate parse trees 15:21
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jaffa8 Can you explain this line in Perl:*FROM = *$from{FILEHANDLE};? 15:25
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masak jaffa8: this is not #perl, it's #perl6. 15:27
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masak we're often off-topic here, but we prefer not to become a general Perl help channel. there are already good such channels. 15:34
jaffa8 no problem, there are other way of seeking help. 15:35
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jaffa8 ways. 15:36
15:37 arnsholt joined
masak also, in some sense, we prefer missing the future rather than missing the past. :) 15:38
er, in the 'longing for' sense.
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arnsholt masak: It's a lot easier to feel a longing for what you've had and know, than something you haven't and don't 15:44
That's my theory, anyways
masak arnsholt: I have Perl 6.
arnsholt Hooray! =)
masak \o/
arnsholt Is there a scrollback bot, BTW? I'm probably missing out on a certain amount of context to the two lines by you I read 15:45
masak arnsholt: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2009-08-24 15:46
arnsholt Gracias 15:47
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jaffa8 arnsholt,unless you have seen others having it 15:48
So you may think it will be good for you too.
arnsholt Good point 15:49
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ruoso pmurias, first we need to define the strategy we're going to use... 15:57
my initial plan was to add another variable to the current interpreter and have a PolymorphicEvalOP that would execute $continuation.next 15:58
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ruoso pmurias, that would also mean that the "goto" implementation would get the current p5 state and save as $continuation.back 16:02
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rindolf Hi all. 16:30
Does Rakudo support PERL6LIB?
Or RAKUDOLIB or something?
Someone is asking us about it on #padre on irc.perl.org
moritz_ rindolf: PERL6LIB, yes 16:31
rindolf moritz_: OK.
takadonet that's me rindolf :) 16:32
moritz_ there's also BEGIN { @*INC.push: 'path' }
rindolf takadonet: ah.
takadonet STD.pm in Padre is not finding any of my modules that have created....
Su-Shee full-service rindolf.. :)
moritz_ takadonet: well, STD.pm != rakudo 16:33
takadonet I know
Was hope to get rid of those silly message saying it cannot find my modules in padre 16:34
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moritz_ I don't know what I should make of rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=68760 - is it spam? 16:57
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jnthn moritz_: Heh, not sure. 17:12
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jnthn moritz_: I'm not sure how you'd accidentally send that... :-| 17:12
People do manage to achieve all sorts though. ;-)
TimToady clicked on a mailto: link somewhere? 17:13
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moritz_ currently spectests the patch from rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=68296 17:16
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Daenyth_ o/ 17:55
17:56 Daenyth_ is now known as Daenyth
moritz_ welcome Daenyth 17:56
Daenyth How's it going? :)
TimToady would you like a commit bit? :)
Daenyth for rakudo on github? I wouldn't object.. :)
TimToady I only have some pugs repo commit bits, alas 17:57
moritz_ we hand out commit bits for the pugs repo (test suite, STD.pm, synopsis) freely
TimToady but with those you can hack tests or spec
Daenyth I think I have one for pugs actually
afk, some errands to run
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moritz_ Daenyth: right (if you hav $nick@gmail.com) 17:58
*have*
TimToady *HAZ*
moritz_ ah right. KANNOD GET USED TO KNEW SPELING 17:59
jaffa8 Hi
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Su-Shee we can stop all efforts. perl 6 is ready: Su-Shee: Chuck Norris also wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation :) 18:12
moritz_ Su-Shee: but did he release it? ;-) 18:13
Su-Shee :) 18:14
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jaffa8 Why not Swarzenegger? 18:16
moritz_ because Chuck Norris doesn't write Schwarzenegger jokes 18:17
Su-Shee jaffa8: too weak. only chuck can do it. :)
jaffa8 Look at how far Swarzengegger have got!
jnthn If Chuck Norris ran California, it would have recovered from the recession before the recession even started! 18:18
;-)
jaffa8 What makes you think that?
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Su-Shee jnthn: if chuck ran California, it would never had seen a recession.. :) 18:18
jaffa8 I am not sure about that.
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moritz_ what should a Perl 6 japh for Rakudo Star print? 18:21
"Just another Perl compiler,"?
jaffa8 Sushi?
TimToady Just another Perl 18:22
moritz_ TimToady++ # nice idea
dalek kudo: 7512462 | (Gianni Ceccarelli)++ | src/ (2 files):
move pick to setting
 18:24
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frettled He probably got it from Chuck Norris. ;) 18:57
rindolf She was quoting me. 19:00
perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_Humour#Chuck_...and_Perl_6
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jnthn lolitsmasak 19:02
:-D
masak :)
masak had a nice swim
jnthn Cool
Bet it wasn't in the sea. :-) 19:03
masak no, it was in a cool pool. 19:06
lisppaste3 moritz_ pasted "Stary obfu" at paste.lisp.org/display/85972
masak moritz_++ 19:07
scary indeed.
moritz_ somehow the last few characters are a bit too obvious
I had some fun fiddling these stars together ;-)
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masak moritz_: that one alone is worth a blog post, I'd say. 19:08
moritz_ I'm now fiddling a bit with the quotes 19:09
turns out I can use <...> instead
jnthn omfg
masak I think there are two Rs in 'starry', btw.
jnthn I think so.
masak unless you meant stare-y.
moritz_ I probably meant both ;-)
jnthn I parsed it as the Slovak word for "old" first :-)
moritz_ and that (3) galls me - how can I turn a * into a number? 19:10
masak jnthn: hah, me too!
jnthn: but Russian.
moritz_: pass in a list (*,*,*) and numify it. 19:11
moritz_ masak: thanks 19:12
except that I'll spell it +<* * *> ;-9 19:13
Daenyth back
moritz_ no need for the + actually
jnthn is trying to write in Russian at the moment to his language partner. 19:14
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TimToady rakudo: [*]()+[*]()+[*]() 19:18
Daenyth so what's this I hear about a possible «make install» for rakudo? 19:19
PerlJam Daenyth: not only a possible, but an actual.
Daenyth :D
so that means I can package it finally!
19:20 donaldh left
moritz_ Daenyth: there's a README in rakudo that's fairly up to date 19:20
Daenyth moritz_: I'll start off with a -git package
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Daenyth hmm 19:23
is ICU a compile time optional depend or runtime?
moritz_ compile time
Daenyth mmk
moritz_ and *strongly+ recommended
Daenyth I'll probably package that if it isn't already then
moritz_ (actually parrot-configure-time) 19:24
Daenyth ok
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Daenyth well, for now rakudo/parrot will probably be bundled in one package, unless there's a better way you'd advise me to do it... can rakudo compile off a system install of parrot or does it need the svn checkout? 19:24
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moritz_ it needs an installed parrot 19:25
(+ make dev-install)
erm, install-dev
Daenyth ok.. so a parrot package by itself would be a good thing
jnthn Yes. 19:26
Daenyth oh wait.. someone beat me to it
rakudo is already in AUR
:<
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moritz_ is it parrot-1.5? 19:26
Daenyth aur.archlinux.org/packages/rakudo/r...o/PKGBUILD
guest_8976 Computer Repair Nampa - nnucomputerwhiz.com Any Dog Breed - anydogbreed.com
19:26 guest_8976 left
jnthn Just to point out ICU is a compile-time dependency for Parrot, rather than Rakudo. 19:26
Daenyth looks like the guy didn't really know what he was doing making it..
reqamst Daenyth: oh, nice
Daenyth that PKGBUILD is screwed up on so many levels 19:27
PerlJam Daenyth: so fix it! :)
Daenyth PerlJam: yeah, I'll email the maintainer and ask if he wants to let me adopt it
moritz_ is it custom to include such things upstream?
Daenyth aur.archlinux.org/packages/rakudo-g...t/PKGBUILD ok, this package looks much more sane 19:28
except for the extra clone.. 19:29
19:30 TimToady left
jnthn nom 19:30
Daenyth mm
I'll email both maintainers and see if they want to disown
19:30 iblechbot joined 19:32 TimToady1 is now known as TimToady
takadonet welcome back TimToday 19:35
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Daenyth So I was under the impression that pugs was dead? 19:38
TimToady it's "stable"
PerlJam as a perl 6 compiler, it's dead.
moritz_ hibernating, I'd say
19:38 moritz_ sets mode: +o TimToady
Daenyth I see 19:38
moritz_ given the last blog entry on pugs.blogs.com/audrey/
masak not changing, I'd say.
TimToady the basic problem was that its bus number never exceeded 1 19:39
Daenyth bus number? 19:40
moritz_ we have that problem in more areas
Daenyth: number of people how, when hit by a bus, will make development halt
Daenyth ahh
pmichaud low bus number == your project could end very quickly 19:41
moritz_ perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/starry-obfu.html there you go
masak moritz_++ delivers!
19:42 Confield left
Daenyth glazes 19:42
pmichaud Perl 6 has arrived.
masak moritz_: which feature? I ask immediately.
moritz_ masak: hm` 19:43
adam-pwgsc moritz_: holy ****
moritz_ "but I'm
not aware of any feature"
Daenyth is <> a quoting thing nowadays?
masak moritz_: oh, I read too quickly... :/
moritz_ Daenyth: yes, it's like qw( ) only shorter ;-)
masak Daenyth: yes, it's what used to be qw()
Daenyth gotcha
ok, now this starts to make more sense
PerlJam moritz_: it's needs another *** *-* ** *+*/*+*/* at the end of the string though :)
Daenyth ...barely
moritz_ PerlJam: newlines are optional ;-) 19:44
masak moritz_: it prints 'ust another Perl' and then nothing more... :) 19:45
er, s/ust/Just/
moritz_ PerlJam: and *** *-* ** *+*/*+*/* can be written as ****-* ** *+*/*+*/* (one space removed)
masak: that's because Rakudo is just another Perl.
adam-pwgsc haha that's brilliant. I love it. I love perl so much.
Daenyth I have no clue how it works
masak moritz_: ah. :)
Daenyth but great! :D
PerlJam moritz_: yeah, I wasn't golfing so much. 19:46
moritz_ Daenyth: let me explain... when you use '*' as term it constructs a closure
Daenyth glazes
moritz_ Daenyth: so 1 + * generates a block -> $x { 1 + $x }
or * * * generates -> $x { $x * $x }
Daenyth I mean, I can see the splitting on *** bit
moritz_ inside the eval the (<* * *>) invokes that closure with a three-item list 19:47
PerlJam moritz_: turn the explanation into another blog post :)
Daenyth +1
moritz_ ok ;-)
Daenyth can you link me to the relevent spec? Maybe I'd get it more if I read that
PerlJam wonders how hard it would be to make a program that discovered the starry form of all numbers from 1 to 100 using <* * *> 19:48
moritz_ S02:812
Daenyth okies 19:49
moritz_ the IRC logs turn that into a direct link to the correct line
Daenyth irc logs?
moritz_ see /topic
Daenyth aha
gotcha
moritz_ PerlJam: actually I think that much space could be safed by factoring out a common term like **** ** * * * 19:51
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Daenyth * is going to take me a while to wrap my head around ._. 19:52
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PerlJam Daenyth: I have to say, that even knowing what * does, it surprised me the first time I saw something like (* ** *)(2) 19:53
moritz_ masak: I suppose you did fill out your gsoc evaluation for literal++? 19:54
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masak moritz_: I did. 19:54
moritz_ great.
masak and I only needed to be harassed by googlebots once, too!
moritz_ ;-)
jnthn Daenyth: You wouldn't by any chance be the person who gave a Rakudo + FreeBSD talk at UPW back in...march/february-ish this year, would you? 19:55
Daenyth jnthn: I doubt it
unless I've suddenly taken to traveling for lectures in my sleep >.> 19:56
jnthn Oh wait, is pkgbuild the BSD stuff?
Daenyth arch
jnthn is clueless
Ah
Daenyth freebsd does ports
jnthn Then in that case, it makes it even less likely.
Sorry.
Daenyth which is a similar concept
jnthn Yeah, you're right.
Daenyth arch PKGBUILDs are inspired partially by ports
jnthn is not a *nix guy.
adam-pwgsc Is it hard doing perl dev on a windows box? 20:00
masak no, not nowadays.
jnthn No.
TimToady apart from perl dev being always hard everywhere... :)
masak that's just programming being hard.
as far as I'm concerned, Perl makes it easier. :) 20:01
PerlJam adam-pwgsc: are you familiar with padre?
Daenyth so wait
a closure is like code interpolated in a string?
masak Daenyth: yes, in strings it is.
PerlJam Daenyth: no, a closure is like a subroutine that knows some things about the environment in which it was created .
Daenyth ahh 20:02
now things begin to make more sense
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masak rakudo: my $a = { say "I am a closure" }; $a() 20:02
Daenyth >.>
is evalbot not here? 20:03
masak seems not.
TimToady it seems to be "stable"
masak I think it's the evalbot server that's stable.
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TimToady std: 42 43 20:03
Daenyth stably offline? :) 20:04
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masak plays evalbot 20:04
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moritz_ is back from net outage 20:04
masak TimToady: SORRY! Couldn't parse... two terms in a row?
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TimToady moritz_: we determined that evalbot is down while you were netsplit 20:04
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moritz_ TimToady: actually its server is unreachable 20:09
TimToady probably just an asteroid, then
or would that be an asterite after it hits?
.oO(tonight, chance of light aster showers)
Daenyth is Q != q (string quoting)?
TimToady Q is raw quoting, no escapes
other forms derive from that
q is really Q:q for instance
Daenyth ok
just browsing the perlgeek blog
the post I'm reading wasn't clear
TimToady it's hard to explain everything first :)
Daenyth nods
b_jonas I wonder if there are any p5 obfus that accidentally work in perl6 unchanged.
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TimToady probably, I'd guess 20:10
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TimToady though the comma on map will kill a lot of them 20:10
b_jonas www.perlmonks.com/?node=japh+algebra is killed by the =~ for regex match 20:11
TimToady that too
anything with bitshifts will die
b_jonas maybe one of my short quines
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b_jonas does perl6 have here documents? I can't find them in S02 20:14
pmichaud yes, see q:to
or looks for "heredoc"
TimToady just another language derived from Q, really
b_jonas oh, but not with the p5 syntax, so that short quine doesn't work
TimToady yes, << is the Texas form of « these days
b_jonas yep 20:15
second in www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=661934 I mean
third might work though
$a=q(;print"\$a=q($a)$a");print"\$a=q($a)$a"
moritz_ q() is a sub call in Perl 6 20:16
b_jonas is it, now?
how do you use parens as a delimiter for regexen?
wait, comment syntax in S02 has changed! 20:17
great, I didn't like the old one
though it's still not what I hoped for
masak postcircumfix parens always mean 'sub call' in Perl 6.
TimToady part of extensibility is making keywords not special, as much as possible. so foo() is always a function call regardless
moritz_ rakudo: sub q($x) { say $x }; q("foo")
ouch.
no p6eval
anyway, that prints "foo\n" for me 20:18
b_jonas but q is special anyway before most characters
masak b_jonas: yes, but parens are more special.
b_jonas oh well, parens are convenient in p5 for regex quoting only because of p5 regex syntax anyway 20:20
how about the seventh then?
print"$_\Q$_\E\"\n"for"print\"\$_\\Q\$_\\E\\\"\\n\"for\""
or the eighth, which is really similar
TimToady no \Q 20:21
b_jonas makes sense
no point for it really
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b_jonas can you use alphabetics as quote delimiters in perl 6? 20:26
TimToady no 20:27
moritz_ no?
b_jonas am wondering on www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=453519 20:28
with strictures off
moritz_ TimToady: STD.pm parses m foof just fine
TimToady: and so does rakudo 20:29
b_jonas no wait, there's no 'no strict subs' in p6 so it can't work
japhb pmichaud, did you get a chance to look at the NQP section of gitorious.org/parrot-plumage/parrot...aster/TODO ?
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TimToady moritz_: well, maybe we relaxed that at some point 20:32
pmichaud japhb: not yet I hadn't, no. I'll look at it after I finish the email I'm currently writing. 20:33
japhb pmichaud, OK, thanks!
TimToady moritz_: I was thinking of S05:1775 20:37
b_jonas www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=438050 doesn't work because it uses $_[$n] to access the nth positional parameter 20:38
TimToady which STD also violates
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moritz_ TimToady: if it's something more general than regexes it should be in S02, really 20:39
TimToady agreed
b_jonas uh huh
"You may not use whitespace or alphanumerics for delimiters. "
thanks
TimToady I knew it was in there somewhere though :) 20:40
b_jonas none of my obfus work then I think 20:41
unsurprising since perl 5.10 broke like three of them as well
am I too version-dependent in my japhs? 20:42
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pmichaud okay, done with email (finally) 21:30
japhb: Q:PIR{...} should be working. If it's not working, feel free to submit a bug report. 21:31
japhb pmichaud, OK, will do. Which bug address?
(Or trac?)
pmichaud trac
japhb k
pmichaud I don't understand "make Glue.pir a 'standard option' for NQP" 21:32
japhb pmichaud, Oh, sorry, that referred to a discussion with jnthn
We were basically saying, we agree that NQP should stay clean, with minimal builtins.
However, there is a use case for people to get at least the glue builtins, like run() ... and we thought shipping a "standard" PIR file with these builtins would be useful. That way, anyone that wanted them could just load_bytecode(), and have them ready. 21:33
pmichaud that sounds to me like a Parrot library, not an NQP one. 21:34
japhb pmichaud, I referred to it as an NQP library because my implementation was pretty much a port of PIR from Rakudo to NQP.
pmichaud sure.
japhb But it matters not to me, that was merely a suggestion.
pmichaud NQP should be able to load libraries, yes. :-) 21:35
it's likely that NQP will get its own "use" syntax handler as well
I had been waiting to see how Perl 6 and Rakudo fleshed those out before committing anything to NQP
japhb Right, and it does, through the existing load_bytecode() (plus Tene's upcoming use support). I was just suggesting adding a library of common builtins to the supported set ... whether with NQP or with Parrot ... *shrug* 21:36
nodnod
pmichaud last item: I agree that NQP should make it possible to declare class attributes
it probably won't be as extensive as Perl 6's declarations -- for example, we might only support declaration of private attributes
japhb Makes sense to me, fits the minimalist design. 21:37
jnthn I could use thsoe too.
pmichaud (library of common builtins) I'm all in favor of libraries of common builtins; I just don't think that NQP wants to be defining them. :-) 21:38
NQP might very well be used to create them, but it shouldn't define them :-)
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mzedeler Hi 21:39
I am preparing a posting to the Perl 6 mailing list and just want to check that this subject hasn't been discussed before. 21:40
pmichaud what's the subject?
jnthn "IO"
;-)
mzedeler Ranges and over-countable domains
japhb pmichaud, I just realized the other reason I was thinking of them as "NQP builtins" -- they include poking objects into the global namespace, with names that are from Perl 6. See gitorious.org/parrot-plumage/parrot...r/Glue.pir .
pmichaud Ranges have undoubtedly been discussed before, although not always in complete detail.
mzedeler 1.0001 .. 1.01 doesn't really make much sense without specifying some step sizve. 21:41
pmichaud japhb: afaik, there's not really a "global namespace"
PerlJam mzedeler: sure it does; the step size is 1
mzedeler And with 1 .. 2i ?
japhb pmichaud, I'm sorry, I'm very tired and being imprecise. .namespace []
pmichaud mzedeler: I can certainly talk about 1.0001 .. 1.01 as a continuous range
mikehh rakudo (7512462) builds on parrot r40764, make test / make spectest (up to 28056) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 (g++) 21:42
mzedeler pmichaud: yes - as interval definition, but expanding to a list...?
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pmichaud japhb: okay... I don't quite see how that affects NQP, though. If a library wants to put things in the global namespace, that's fine. 21:42
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moritz_ as a list it expands into (1.0001, ) 21:43
pmichaud mzedeler: since the default interval is 1, that would be a list of one element. That's fine.
japhb pmichaud, I think I have failure of brain. Nevermind.
pmichaud Perl generally doesn't warn or prevent degenerate cases.
japhb: no problem :-)
japhb: my whole past week or so has been "failure of brain" mode. :-)
japhb heh
mzedeler pmichaud: but you cant really compare 1 and 2i. Its like having a range from 'banana' to 3.14. 21:44
PerlJam Though mzedeler does have a point that 1.0001..1.01 as a list is just 1.0001, but 1.0006 ~~ 1.0001..1.01 is true. That might seem strange to some people
mzedeler Pun intended.
pmichaud mzedeler: sure, that part of the specification is somewhat imprecise, I agree.
mzedeler PerlJam: Yes. Same point for character ranges.
moritz_ 1..2i will probably be the empty list, or fail() 21:45
pmichaud I'm also not entirely comfortable with the range specification for strings; I posted a message about it but I think it was warnocked.
mzedeler aaa is between aa and ba, but not when you use a Range.
PerlJam pmichaud: what are you unhappy about for string ranges?
mzedeler Same here.
moritz_ I think it's generally desirable to fail() if start- and endpoint are of different type, or not comparable
b_jonas perl5 does have a range from 'banana' to '3.14' and it's empty, but 'a' to '3.14' has size 26**4 I think
pmichaud PerlJam: parts of string ranges are very unintuitive and have bizarre effects 21:46
b_jonas hmm, wait
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b_jonas strange, "a"..3.14 and "a".."3.14" give different results in perl5 21:46
mzedeler b_jonas: I am talking about a range from the Str 'banana' to the Num 3.14.
b_jonas sure, it doesn't make sense
jrtayloriv I'm getting the following when I run 'make spectest': pastebin.com/d5530b6c2 ... is this anything I should be concerned about / post a bug report on? 21:47
mzedeler Sorry for stirring up things. I'll post my rants at the mailing list right now. Its already done. It sounds like it is appropriate.
moritz_ jrtayloriv: is that the 2009-08 release of rakudo?
pmichaud jrtayloriv: the autoincrement-range.t tests aren't expected... the other two are.
PerlJam jrtayloriv: known bugginess
moritz_ heh, three answers, all of them different
jrtayloriv moritz_: :) 21:48
moritz_: I just did git pull today (an hour or so ago)
moritz_ the problem in autoincrement-range.t seems that libicu is not available
japhb Brilliant. Last night I couldn't get Q:PIR{} to work. Today I can't make it fail.
pmichaud if so, then autoincrement-range.t needs to be marked # icu in spectest.data
japhb I think I'm going to bed and pretend this afternoon doesn't exist.
mzedeler Bye for now. 21:49
moritz_ jrtayloriv: what does './parrot_install/bin/parrot_config has_icu' from within the rakudo dir say? 21:50
21:50 mzedeler left
jrtayloriv 0 21:50
moritz_ jrtayloriv: thanks 21:51
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moritz_ jrtayloriv: ok, I committed a "fix" (which is not to run that test if the ICU library is not available) 21:52
jrtayloriv moritz_: thank you
PerlJam pmichaud: oh, while I'm thinking of it again ... www.rakudo.org has many blank pages for me. Do you know why or how to fix ot?
s/ot/it/
moritz_ it seems to be related to the presence of cookies 21:53
dalek kudo: 9d9d416 | moritz++ | t/spectest.data:
[t/spectest.data] autoincrement-range.t needs the # icu flag, jrtayloriv++
moritz_ when I delete all cookies from rakudo.org the next page load works fine
PerlJam t ries it
nope. 21:54
www.rakudo.org/documentation is still blank
I also get a blank page when I try to login. 21:55
But www.rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo and www.rakudo.org/how-to-help show up fine.
(maybe someone enabled a rule in drupal to only show pages that start with "how" :-)
moritz_ ;-) 21:56
let's try "why" too
jrtayloriv I am having the same problem -- www.rakudo.org/community is blank for me 21:57
moritz_ bah.
PerlJam Is it possible to get a login on the box that hosts rakudo.org? 21:59
jaffa8 I think 22:00
rakudo should have been written in perl 22:01
moritz_ it is, mostly
jaffa8 what else?
PerlJam more and more of it is every day in fact
moritz_ PIR, C
jaffa8 I mean perl 5
PerlJam jaffa8: see STD
jaffa8 what for? 22:02
moritz_ well, Perl 6 is much more suited for writing a compiler than Perl 5
we've had various attempts at writing Perl 6 is Perl 5
jaffa8 in?
carlin v6.pm
moritz_ s/is/in/
jaffa8 is=in?
PerlJam yeah, and they've been *so* successful! :)
moritz_ kp6, v6.pm
for example
jaffa8 who?
moritz_ they all suffered from the same problem 22:03
jaffa8 Which is?
moritz_ jaffa8: I'm about to explain, but explaining takes longer than asking questions
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moritz_ so... either they implemented only a small part of Perl 6 which coudl be directly translated to Perl 5 22:03
or they became horribly slow. 22:04
because they had to add layer upon layer on perl 5
jaffa8 What parser have they used?
Tene pmichaud: ping
moritz_ and then perl 5 was just not fast enough
custom parsers
but I'm mostly talking about execution speed
Tene pmichaud: japhb asked me to add support for 'use' and 'eval' to NQP. Do you have any inclination to comment on what you'd like to see there before I write and commit it?
jaffa8 Of what? 22:05
moritz_ of these implementations.
PerlJam jaffa8: you're welcome to try to write a perl 6 compiler in perl 5 if you want.
jaffa8: the spec is more mature now than when those others tried. That's got to help a little :) 22:06
and you've got several other implementations to crib ideas from if you get stuck on how to handle something
pmichaud Tene: I want them to continue the minimal nature of NQP -- i.e., to provide essentially the semantics that HLLCompiler is providing
Tene nods. 22:07
pmichaud I expect to be improving HLLCompiler's eval capability to resolve the REPL issues. 22:08
Tene Do you want me to send you whatever patch I write before committing it, to make sure I don't add too much?
pmichaud Tene: if you send me a patch beforehand I'll be glad to review. If you just want to commit, I might revert.
(but I'm fine with that if you are)
I'd say forgiveness better than permission here :-)
jaffa8 I have used Perl 5 for compilation purposes.
Tene I rather prefer that you just revert, yes.
jaffa8 I used Parse:Yapp
pmichaud Let's do that then.
moritz_ jaffa8: so you already have experience. That's great, and will make success more probable 22:09
Tene i generally assume that if I commit something stupid, it'll just get reverted and I'll get decremented, as that's how I'd prefer anyone else contributed to something I cared about, except in exceptional cases.
pmichaud Tene: that's fine with me.
I also wouldn't want it to block on my review.
however, I'm now done with trips for the year, and the kids are back in school, and I don't have anyone coming to visit, so I _hope_ I'll have a ton more time than I've had for the past several months 22:10
Tene schedules a visit to pmichaud's roof. 22:11
pmichaud yes, if anyone wants to come visit, we can likely get some extensive hacking done :-)
and I do have a spare bedroom
PerlJam pmichaud: somehow I doubt that.
pmichaud PerlJam: oh? why's that? 22:12
Tene I'm wondering if I should try to arrange hacking with allison and particle here in seattle. We've already arranged for dinner...
PerlJam pm: for me, only if the wife and kids don't come. :)
pmichaud oooh, that's right, the members meeting is tomorrow. I should see if I'm authorized to vote yet.
jaffa8 pmichaud, where do you live? 22:13
pmichaud jaffa8: Plano, Texas (just north of Dallas)
jaffa8 Is it windy?
pmichaud sometimes, yes, but generally no. 22:14
jaffa8 Is it hot?
Tene Taking time off work to visit you to help work on the PGE rewrite/refactor/rewhatever is actually an extremely attractive idea to me.
pmichaud Tene: that could work, definitely.
if you can get as far as a dallas airport, I can get you the rest of the way :)
jaffa8 I cannot imagine you are serious. 22:15
Tene Why not?
jaffa8 Group hacking?
Does that work?
pmichaud sure. f2f work is often very productive (more)
jaffa8 What is f2f?
pmichaud jnthn++ and I are extremely productive when we're in the same room working on things
Tene face-to-face
PerlJam jaffa8: have you ever heard of pair programming?
jaffa8 yes 22:16
PerlJam jaffa8: have you ever done it?
Tene I'd have to get time off work... and I don't have any savings to speak of right now.
jaffa8 yes
pmichaud Tene: we'll keep it in mind over the next couple of months. We might be able to work something out.
jaffa8 What would you do in pair?
pmichaud many times it's easier to explain or explore design issues in person in front of a whiteboard than to try to do it via email or irc 22:17
jnthn Yes, face to face meetups are very useful.
pmichaud irc is relatively low-bandwidth
jaffa8 how long does it last?
PerlJam real-life-bandwidth++
jaffa8 Such a cooperation
1 day 22:18
?
1 week?
pmichaud depends
jnthn Depends. 1 day is generally too short though.
pmichaud jnthn and I have managed to make productive use of two or three days easily
jnthn I mean, the first 2 hours I've not had enough coffee to do anything useful anyway.
PerlJam pm: Wasn't there a Dallas.p6m hackathon recently?
jnthn ;-)
pmichaud and I found the parrot developers summit last november (2 days) to be extremely productive
22:18 nihiliad left
pmichaud yes, we're doing a Dallas.p6m this saturday 22:18
we're doing about 2-3 hours for that 22:19
jnthn Two or three days normally leaves me feeling "we got lots done, but we could have done more tomorrow too" :-)
jaffa8 you could do pair programming with a suitable software
PerlJam jnthn: I don't see Dallas on your travel map :)
pmichaud anyway, if Tene++ arrived here, I have no doubt we would whip out a bunch of interoperability code and resolve several big design issues
PerlJam jnthn: we've used gobby to good effect here (even with the limited bandwidth) 22:20
er, s/jnthn/jaffa8/
pmichaud if seattle weren't so far away I'd even have considered attending there :-)
jnthn PerlJam: Dallas is a little far for me to come.
pmichaud gets his parrot board votes in.
PerlJam: I much prefer to meet with jnthn++ in some locale other than Dallas :-) 22:21
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PerlJam jnthn: All you have to do is find some client that'll pay your way nearby and use that as an excuse to visit Pm for a few days :) 22:21
pmichaud: even CRP? ;)
pmichaud sure, even CRP
jaffa8 Dallas is 8 hours from here.
pmichaud jaffa8: eight hours driving or flying?
jnthn Is CRP missing a vowel?
jaffa8 flying
jnthn
.oO( oh my, I wonder which city I just offended )
 22:22
pmichaud CRP = airport code for "Corpus Christi, Texas"
PerlJam jaffa8: you and I are roughly within the same time locus of Dallas, though I'd be driving
pmichaud PerlJam: I'll likely be in CRP sometime in Sep, btw. :-)
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PerlJam pmichaud: if it's the week of the 14th, I'll be in Vegas 22:23
pmichaud ...vegas?
jnthn Vegas would be a terrible place for a hackathon.
Since what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, nothing would get committed at all.
pmichaud heh
PerlJam pmichaud: Rizzo and I are attending a "project management" course there.
pmichaud PerlJam: suuuuuuuure you are
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jnthn "project" 22:23
;-)
pmichaud "project management" sounds like a euphemism to me
PerlJam pm: Rizzo set it up, so you can guess his motivation :) 22:24
pmichaud pj: okay, I think I nailed it on my first comment then :)
where are you staying?
PerlJam in fact, the same course is offered at different times in other cities and he argued convincingly that we should go to the one in Nevada. 22:25
pmichaud hey, I'm "managing a project"! Maybe I should go also?
PerlJam I actually am not sure where we're staying.
pmichaud I wonder if CBI/HRI would pay for me to go... :-P
PerlJam I think it's the Flamingo 22:26
pmichaud we could do project management course by day, and then "hacking" at night. After all, there's nothing else to do after 5pm in vegas.... :-P
PerlJam heh
pmichaud afk for a bit 22:27
PerlJam saw "The Hangover" 2 nights ago, so Las Vegas has a different brain-feel than it would have otherwise. 22:28
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carlin is anyone able to grant commit access to the pugs svn? I have some small changes I want to make to the docs, I was going to email the patches but they're fairly trivial so it doesn't seem worth bothering others with if I can do it myself :) 22:33
jnthn carlin: yes 22:34
moritz_ carlin: just /msg me or jnthn your email address and desired nickname
jnthn carlin: pm me your email address and desired...
22:35 REPLeffect left
jnthn If you want comedy, send it to both of us and we'll race. 22:35
moritz_ lol
how neglecting of us not to offer you a commit bit earlier
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carlin I would have taken you up on the offer to have a race but I couldn't send both at the same time so it would be unfair 22:36
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jnthn carlin: added you 22:36
22:37 mikehh joined
moritz_ carlin: it's a custom to add yourself to the AUTHORS file in your first commit 22:37
jnthn carlin: So you'll have password in your email.
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moritz_ carlin: and you can also invite new commiters if you log in to commitbit.pugscode.org/admin/project/Pugs/people with your svn password 22:38
carlin viral commit access, nice :) 22:39
moritz_ aye ;-)
PerlJam carlin: it's an exclusive club ... just look at the list :)
moritz_ gvanrossum: [email@hidden.address] (author, pending) 22:40
("pending" means he never actually comitted something)
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s1n moritz_: i never added myself to AUTHORS in pugs or CREDITS in rakudo lol 22:42
moritz_ s1n: you should have
s1n moritz_: i should indeed, maybe i should do that before the hackathon this weekend
moritz_: i haven't made any patches for rakudo since the switchover though :( 22:44
moritz_ s1n: you should change that ;-) 22:45
s1n moritz_: i haven't been able to keep up, i work best if i have specific tasks to do, fishing for things to work on when i don't know what needs done or know the code that well is tough (for me anyways) 22:47
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s1n moritz_: know of anything that needs work? 22:49
moritz_ s1n: t/spec/TODO in the pugs repo is full of stuff that needs work (not Rakudo stuff, I know)
if you want to work on Rakudo, I have a nice idea to speed up the build process 22:50
currently the setting is concatenated into one huge Perl 6 file, and then compiled to PIR
it would be more efficient (and easier to parallelize) if all the files would be compiled separately 22:51
and the PIR concatenated then
s1n can you concat PIR files like that?
and why do you think that would speed things up? 22:52
moritz_ because larger files take over-proportionally long
because they contain growing data structures like symbol tables etc.
and yes, you can concatenate PIR like that 22:53
that's how it's done for all the src/classes/*.pir etc.
s1n jnthn: here's my shortcut, this seems to be a nice stop-gap measure 22:55
jnthn: gist.github.com/174282
moritz_ gotta sleep now, TTFN folks
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jnthn TTFN? 22:57
carlin ta ta for now 23:00
jnthn s1n: Ah, it's a step on the way to working out how to make %*ENV work. :-) 23:05
carlin: ah, thanks :-)
s1n jnthn: yes, but rakudo has no "temporary hacks" area
jnthn s1n: I'm not really inclined to add a bunch of functions that people will start using, only to have to deprecate them later. 23:06
s1n jnthn: it does indeed call setenv, i stopped it in gdb :)
jnthn: yes, i understand, but i thought i'd point it out and mention that it doesn't really belong yet
jnthn: there are no functions in the spec similar to the POSIX function, so it doesn't really belong anywhere 23:07
jnthn s1n: *nod* 23:10
I think getting %*ENV fixed up is probably the way to go.
s1n jnthn: i agree, but that'll have to wait until i have a weekend free :) 23:11
jnthn I may try and get Proxy objects done soon-ish so you can do that.
(If you want to do that. :-))
s1n jnthn: honestly, i'd rather do it once, than have to reimplement
jnthn s1n: Aye. 23:12
Then I'd wait for Proxy objects.
s1n (if the needed bits aren't _huge_ that is)
jnthn TimToady: Is this bit in S06 still correct? 23:14
set_name $obj: "Sam"; # try $obj.set_name("Sam") first, then
# fall-back to set_name($obj, "Sam")
(I know a lot of fall-back stuff went away, I'm not sure if this counts.) 23:15
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Tene japhb: I'm just about done at work for today. Depending on what the gf has planned for tonight, I'll either get stuff done soon or late tonight before bed. 23:30
jnthn std: ::Everything but KitchenSink 23:34
aww, no evalbot :-)
jnthn just found where in the spec KitchenSink is defined.
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s1n phenny: tell masak did you forget to commit some stuff in Web.pm? i just pulled the tests and either i am testing wrong or they are failing; for example, it can't find Web::Happle 23:41
phenny s1n: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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jnthn just finished a re-read of S06. 23:58
My word, there's some stuff in there.

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