»ö« | perl6.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo: / pugs: / std: , or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by wolfe.freenode.net on 30 October 2009.
colomon Cool, eh? 00:00
holli (but still relying on firebug for development)
colomon: i like it. it's slick and blazing fast 00:01
colomon I've been loving Chrome (beta) for OS X. 00:02
zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Day 20: Little big things': perl6advent.wordpress.com/2009/12/2...ig-things/ 00:03
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lisppaste3 vamped pasted "Method 'prime' not found for invocant of class 'Integer'" at paste.lisp.org/display/92371 00:21
vamped S02 mentions a .prime method in an example, but .prime is not yet implemented. I tried making my own. 00:23
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colomon vamped: I don 00:42
vamped: I don't think prime is intended to be part of Perl 6. 00:43
At least, it's never mentioned except as an example in the documentation of other things... 00:44
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vamped colomon: your comment never posted here - but did in the irc log. 01:23
colomon vamped: weird. 01:24
vamped colomon: still -- any advice on how to make my example work?
colomon This is in rakudo master, I presume? 01:25
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colomon rakudo: class Int is also { method prime() { say "prime!"; }; }; 1.prime; 01:25
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: prime!␤
vamped yes
colomon Trying it locally now. 01:27
It works for the first six tests and then fails for you, too?
looks to me like you have found a very weird bug. 01:28
vamped 1.prime 2.prime ... work. but: for 1..25 { .prime } fails at 2
colomon I added .WHAT.say before the .prime in the loop and both 1 and 2 are Ints. 01:29
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colomon I don't see how it can be anything other than a Rakudo bug. 01:30
vamped i did that too. but then it complains about an "Integer" class
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vamped I guess I'll email [email@hidden.address] (right?) 01:32
colomon right
afk
TimToady rakudo: say "divisible" if 30 !% 3;
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: divisible␤
TimToady vamped: you can also us !% 01:33
vamped ok cool.
TimToady also, you really only need to test 2..^ sqrt(self) 01:35
er, 2 .. sqrt(self) rather 01:36
can't exclude the sqrt in that case
vamped that will speed it up a bit. good to know.
TimToady another normal trick is to special case 2, and then just test odd numbers 01:37
rakudo: for 2, 3 ... *+2, 25 { .say } 01:38
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: 2␤3␤5␤7␤9␤11␤13␤15␤17␤19␤21␤23␤25␤
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vamped TimToady: did you look at my lisppaste? code? Did you see any errors (b4 I post bug) 01:39
TimToady looked okay to me 01:55
vamped thanks. I'll report bug.
colomon Occurs to me it might be something weird with the internal type... like the Parrot type for second element of the series is wrong, even though it claims to be Int. 02:07
But that's still a bug, of course.
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diakopter pugs: my bit $a = 0; say $a.WHAT 03:43
p6eval pugs: Int␤
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diakopter o i c 03:43
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TimToady native types are really subset types that can be relied on for smaller storage footprint 03:58
but semantically they are really the base type like Int 03:59
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carlin rakudo: "say 1".eval 04:37
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: maximum recursion depth exceeded␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
diakopter oo 04:41
rakudo: "say 1" 04:42
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: ( no output )
diakopter rakudo: "say 1".()
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: invoke() not implemented in class 'Perl6Str'␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
diakopter rakudo: "say 1".eval()
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: maximum recursion depth exceeded␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
diakopter rakudo: Str.eval("say 1")
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'eval'␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
diakopter rakudo: eval("say 1") 04:43
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: ( no output )
diakopter o_O
O_o
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TimToady might be disabled in the bot 04:45
if so, message is LTA
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mberends phenny, tell masak when you interrupted the first LLVM make and reconfigured, maybe it carried some files over and did not rebuild them. try 'make clean', ./configure, make. 05:04
phenny mberends: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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mberends diakopter: ping 05:08
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diakopter mberends: PONG 05:10
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mberends diakopter: I would like to pick you brains about AST walking use cases. I'm considering abstracting my depth first traversal algortihm, into a generic utility method, and want to go over its to-be-designed API 05:14
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mberends first off, the current one is recursive - is this bad? 05:14
diakopter not necessarily 05:15
depends on how you want to be able to exit the traversal
if at all
or change the order/tree while you're traversing it
mberends that was question #2
apart from full traversals, should I be designing for partial traversals too, in the case of processing VAST ? 05:16
considering that the use case is a compiler, not an interpreter 05:17
diakopter hm 05:18
mberends I'm thinking full only, a lot easier to build
error cases don't matter, we can abandon them 05:19
diakopter SGTM 05:20
seems/sounds good to me
mberends good to know :) in the extreme, your %seen reduces to 1 bit in each node itself - that's already working, just a matter of refactoring it :) 05:21
diakopter yep; 1 bit 05:22
mberends what worried me was the partial traversals, but I could not imagine when they might occur 05:23
TimToady constant folding
mberends oh
yes
TimToady anything evaluated at compile time, like a use expression 05:24
or a constant initializer
mberends there may be a 2 bit solution, but more use cases propel them to n bit
diakopter well, at some level it will always be an interpreter
so now that I'm reminded of that by this TimToady fellow, I'll backpedal from the SGTM 05:25
mberends I'm glad I asked
diakopter well, unless you're compiling to a system that knows how to compile
mberends I guess anything that stores state in the tree itself is vulnerable
constant folding etc were not on my roadmap, but perhaps they should be. Talk about answering a question with a question :-/ 05:27
diakopter I'm still a fan of an implementation implementing eval() first :) 05:28
mberends I'm definitely not ;)
diakopter the *idea* of it, I mean :D 05:29
mberends ok, the next most complex implementation replaces recursion with state in a linked list
question #3: does breadth first occur in this problem space? 05:30
the difference between depth first and breadth first can be accommodated in the linked lists, but may be overkill 05:31
I cannot think of a use case 05:32
this is enough to go on - it's easier for me right now, I've just woken up and you guys are probably beyond the help of coffee 05:35
thanks 05:36
TimToady thanks :)
diakopter mberends: yeah, breadth first will occur if you implement LTM parsing (eventually) as an interpreter 05:37
mberends :D your brain's still ok. that won't happen in the AST, but it will in a regex engine. good to know :) 05:39
mberends is happy with the answers :) 05:40
diakopter isn't
mberends oh? 05:41
diakopter 'tsjust ... 05:45
brings back memories
mberends diakopter: ah, reading your last answer carefully, there is a problem when replacing viv with another LTM parser for STD.pm
diakopter yah, but that's my department (someday) :P 05:46
mberends this began with the idea of separating out the tree walker code, so I'd like to cover all the cases 05:47
TimToady LTM is sort of "breadth last"
mberends thinks. longer. 05:49
sorry about the coffee remark 05:50
diakopter breadth last outside the LTM itself; breadth first if you do it char-by-char inside the LTM 05:51
diakopter hopes
mberends char-by-char sounds inefficient, there should be bigger atoms 05:52
diakopter char-by-char meaning breadth-first-in-parallel
keeping-priority/order
where in-parallel means one-char-at-a-time per branch 05:53
it's just another way of simulating the implementation of something that compiles POSIX-style regexes to a DFA 05:54
mberends ok, it doesn't feel right to be anticipating that right now in AST processing code 05:55
diakopter no
I mean: I agree
mberends is happy again
diakopter almost getting annoyed with writing IL *in* C# b/c I haven't quite learned the [any] idia 05:56
TimToady: plural of idiom ?
idiomi? 05:57
idiomses?
mberends what is [any] ? a kind of untyped container?
diakopter any meaning, I haven't quite learned any idioms
mberends oh dear, that's worse
diakopter heh 05:58
mberends feels like making coffee. care for some?
diakopter yes, but starbucks isn't open at 10 pm nearby 06:03
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mberends backloggers: s/next most complex/next simplest/ 06:15
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diakopter mberends: next least complex? 06:15
mberends er 06:16
yes, that, too ;)
depends on your half empty/half full perspective 06:17
mberends hopes masak gets vill to make on OS X 06:18
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diakopter _yes_ I got arbitrary type local declaration/assignment generators working in runsharp 06:40
whee
it could do only built-in types as far as I could tell 06:41
mberends runsharp looks cool, and your extensions make it even better 06:42
diakopter its binder needs a bit of help 06:47
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mberends snowing now in southern NL - depth increasing to 15-20cm 08:41
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JimmyZ wow 08:50
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mberends holli_: hi 11:32
holli_ salutations 11:33
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Supaplex return $hello->standard; 11:56
holli_ purl, weather EDDR 11:59
ah, wrong channel 12:00
mberends ENOPURL
Supaplex lol. nice one mberends.
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colomon ng: "say 1".eval; 12:06
p6eval ng 9d5018: 1␤
colomon rakudo: "say 1". eval;
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: Confused at line 2, near ". eval;"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
colomon rakudo: "say 1".eval;
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: maximum recursion depth exceeded␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
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holli_ rakudo:say [+] <1 2 3> 12:20
rakudo: say [+] <1 2 3>
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: 6␤
holli_ rakudo: my $f = sub { say "foo" }; [$f] <1 2 3> 12:21
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: Confused at line 2, near "2 3>"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
colomon holli_: I believe you can only use/pass an operator to [ ]. 12:31
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colomon and I'm fairly certain you can't pass it as a variable currently. (Not sure if that is ever intended to work.) 12:32
rakudo: my $f = sub { say $_ ~ "foo" }; <1 2 3>.reduce($f);
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: ( no output )
colomon ack, that's still very wrong. 12:35
I think maybe you wanted
want something like this:
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colomon rakudo: my $f = -> $a { say "foo $a"; }; <1 2 3>.map($f); 12:36
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: foo 1␤foo 2␤foo 3␤
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masak no, because I didn't just rebuild, I removed the whole folder and untarred it again. 13:42
phenny masak: 19 Dec 20:50Z <mberends> tell masak an expert at #llvm said the --prefix=/usr *should* work on OS X as well. "probably something is expecting 32-bit code and using 64-bit or vice versa"
mberends
.oO( here goes! )
phenny masak: 05:04Z <mberends> tell masak when you interrupted the first LLVM make and reconfigured, maybe it carried some files over and did not rebuild them. try 'make clean', ./configure, make.
masak though admittedly, I didn't do --prefix=/usr either.
mberends could you focus on 'make test' in LLVM first, before 'make install' ? 13:43
masak certainly.
mberends :)
mberends is very happy with diakopter's ideas for graph_traverse.h 13:44
masak cool. I read swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html today for lunch. 13:45
a nice read.
but I guess you're traversing VAST, not regex nodes.
mberends indeed, but regexen will interest me soon 13:46
masak it strikes me that if I equip GGE with a 'Thompson mode', I can beat PGE for speed in some (pathological) cases. 13:47
mberends skim skim skim. presumably the mode entails a major redesign 13:48
masak it's more of a plug-in that can be activated if/when the regex is pure enough. 13:49
mberends nice! 13:50
the "knee" of the Perl graph scares me enough to consider using Thompson all the time 13:51
masak you can't.
mberends doesn't know what he's talking about
masak but certainly in a large percentage of cases.
Thompson starts to blow up when we use more advanced features, such as variable interpolation, formerly known as 'backreferences'. 13:52
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masak I suspect, but haven't proved to myself yet, that code assertions and re-entrant subrule calls will be similarly problematic. 13:53
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mberends good luck masak, I'll apply my precious tuits to VAST 13:54
masak the good news is that one can enable Thompson for the small sub-part where it's known to work, and then switch it on for other sub-parts later as one gets nice ideas about how to reduce problematic things to Thompson-friendly ones. 13:55
thanks; I'll try to get GGE 'done' before doing Thompson experiments.
but today I'll see if I can implement the TreeSpider in GGE. :)
mberends does the pge -> nqp-rx replacement give you a GGE-ng todo? 13:57
masak I was thinking of doing a refactor. pmichaud_ opined that that doesn't sound quite right, since nqp-rx is a complete re-implementation. so we'll see. maybe I'll do a complete re-implementation too. but it feels... less motivated to port NQP to Perl 6 than to port PIR to Perl 6. :) 13:59
what most attracts me, of course, is the things we'll be able to do with a Perl 6 Perl 6 parser. 14:00
actually, I should write a separate document about that for GGE.
mberends wonders what to port to C
masak well, the TreeSpider will actually be quite a big deviation (semantically) from PGE. 14:01
it's because I'm not smart enough to emulate STD.pm's LazyMap yet. 14:02
so I have no way of faking continuations. instead I play call stack myself, and backtrack 'manually'.
mberends it's head-hurting to think of that. does viv do that too? 14:03
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masak dunno. 14:03
I should say gimme5's LazyMap, not STD.pm's.
pmurias mberends: you are planning to write a grammar engine in C? 14:04
mberends pmurias: I'm too scared to even answer that question to myself
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mberends there are so many unknowns, all we can assume is that the other solutions will probably have C in their toolchains. That implies that it's doable, if you peel off al the layers of abstractions. 14:06
masak of course it's doable. :) 14:07
the question is more like, how painful is it.
mberends yes
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pmurias we can use B::C to compile STD.pmc, that would be neither painfull nor usefull 14:10
masak I nominate that the oddest remark so far today. :) 14:11
mberends if there was the slightest use in it, it would still merit consideration. However, there are like to be more elegant or efficient solutions out there, somewhere. 14:13
arnsholt One option might be a compiler-compiler using Perl 6 grammar syntax but C in the actions?
(long-term)
mberends likes
arnsholt A port og PGE, for example
*of
masak arnsholt: I think only masochists should attempt to port PGE, now that nqp-rx exists. 14:15
mberends (the voice of experience :)
pmurias arnsholt: what would be the point of having C in actions?
mberends emit LLVM IR, for example 14:16
arnsholt pmurias: Well, if it's a C library, having Perl 6 in the actions would be kind of hard 14:17
masak: True, true. A port of an existing implementation, at any rate
masak arnsholt: nod. nqp-rx has the capacity to take us much longer than PGE.
mberends it's not LTM today, but can get there if necessary 14:19
arnsholt mberends: That's certainly an option as well. It just means I have to learn LLVM. How would one do actions with that approach though?
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mberends arnsholt: I cannot imagine the implementation right now, but I'd like to spend a while thinking about the possibility 14:20
arnsholt Certainly. I'm already pondering the C approach =) 14:21
masak is made happy by twitter.com/mcmire/status/6841786387 14:23
arnsholt Hooray! 14:24
colomon \o/ 14:25
arnsholt If one has said it, more are probably thinking it
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rjbs I'm looking at today's Advent calendar article, which goes from discussing &foo.arity to a map block that does -> $x, $y 14:26
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rjbs Is there some object being created there which responds to .arity? 14:27
C<< my @foo = map -> $x, $y { ... }, @bar; >>
masak rjbs: yes. the block.
the point block, even.
s/point/pointy/ 14:28
rjbs is the -> the beginning of the pointy block?
colomon rjbs: -> $x, $y { ... } is a block object with arity 2.
rjbs great, thanks.
masak rjbs: yes, exactly.
rjbs: the '->' is pronounced 'lambda' :)
rjbs (but "pointy" means the {} right, not the -> ?
masak rjbs: no, it means the '->'.
rjbs All these years, I thought it was the braces that were pointy! 14:29
masak that doesn't work becayse '{}' without '->' have the same braces. :)
rjbs Yeah, but I thought -that- was a pointy block. my $block = { .. };
I thought that was considered a pointy blocky.
but everything I know about perl 6 I learned from the telephone game.
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masak rjbs: that's all everyone does. it's possible to learn everything from the primary sources, because the primary sources presuppose knowledge of Perl 6. :) 14:33
pmurias mberends: you meant impossible? 14:34
huf patspam: you meant masak?
colomon my favorite trick is to try to work out what I want to do using p6eval here. If I can't figure it out, someone else usually chimes in pretty quickly.
masak pmurias: yes.
pmurias huf: yes
masak huf: you meant pmurias?
huf yes ;) 14:35
masak is trying to remember the name of the (deeply ironic) effect wherein a correction often contains errors 14:37
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arnsholt On UserFriendly it was called Naruki's law 14:40
But there's another name as well, I think
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masak mberends: says "make: Nothing to be done for `test'". 14:44
mberends: this is on a completely clean build of llvm-2.6.
carlin masak: Muphry's law?
masak carlin: well, no, it's more specific than that. 14:45
carlin (the typo is intentional)
masak I'm pretty sure I've seen a name for the phenomenon on Language Log, but my Google-fu fails me.
carlin: ah. I missed that. :)
nice one, but I think there's a name for it already.
carlin en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry%27s_law 14:46
masak oh, I see. 14:47
rjbs ha
masak strange; that's not the name I remember.
arnsholt "Harman's Law of Prescriptivist Retaliation" that name tickles my (descriptive) linguist bone ^^
masak: There are a few alternatives in the article 14:48
McKean and Skitt's for example
masak 'The Law of Prescriptive Retaliation' sounds most familiar. 14:49
"any article or statement about correct grammar, punctuation, or spelling is bound to contain at least one eror" 14:50
mberends pmurias: C language action methods are not specced, but imaginable (not portable across implementations though) 14:52
a bit like Q:PIR in Rakudo 14:53
masak: currently no other idea, will check more LLVM docs :( 14:55
masak mberends: thanks. I'll try to put a spider in my GGE in the meantime. 14:58
mberends know any Darwin emulator available for test purposes? 14:59
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masak mberends: no. :( I never have the need. 15:03
today's line of code:
GGE::TreeSpider.new(:exp($!regex), :$target, :pos(*)).crawl(:$debug);
mberends :) somewhat like my struct ... graph_traverse_begin(...) ;) 15:05
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arnsholt Is there a simple way to convert the Synopsis PODs to PDF? 15:05
mberends there are several Perl 5 POD->PDF modules, YMMV
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mberends masak: what was :pos(*) for? 15:08
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masak` mberends: I somehow want to specify that this traversal should start over after it's tried position 0, and try to match on position 1 ... up to position $target.chars - 1. 15:12
mberends oh, ok 15:13
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masak which looks nicer, `$pos ~~ Whatever` or `$pos === *`? 15:24
mberends ~~ Whatever is more mnemonic 15:25
masak I'll go with that, then. 15:26
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masak rakudo: enum A::B <a b c>; say b 15:45
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p6eval rakudo 8dc189: ( no output ) 15:45
masak locally, 'Null PMC access in type()'.
masak submits rakudobug
masak hopes enums will be less full of fail in ng 15:46
dbrock when you say `std: ...', what does that run? 15:48
masak dbrock: it runs TimToady's Perl 6 grammar.
mberends dbrock: viv from /pugs/src/perl6 15:49
masak STD.pm. you'll find it in the Pugs repo, under src/perl6/
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masak dbrock: what mberends said. viv is the technology allowing STD.pm to run without a Perl 6 implementation. :) 15:49
dbrock hmm :-) 15:50
masak the sad thing about the enum bug above is that I pondered giving my enum a name with '::' in it, but though "hm, will that really work? better check first...". that's how low my trust in enums is. :/ 15:51
arnsholt Hmm. S05 uses some kind of weird spacing 15:52
masak O RLY? 15:53
arnsholt Yep
If you load it up in less and search for a literal space
you'll notice that the space between Perl and 5 isn't highlighted
A non-breaking space, probably 15:54
mberends yes, 0xa0 possibly
masak arnsholt: the whole spec does that, by design. 15:56
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masak it's not some kind of weird spacing, it's a non-breaking space. 15:57
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mberends masak, may I call my thingy that walks the AST 'spider' as well? 16:01
masak I'd be honoured. 16:02
mberends :) thanks
masak I stole the name for those web crawlers.
mberends 'course, it's _just_ right 16:03
masak I think it's more lively than RegexControlFlowManager or something.
mberends live spiders!
arnsholt masak: If it's not a literal space, it's weird ;p
mberends afk & 16:04
masak arnsholt: that feels like a slightly outdated opinion on character sets. :)
carlin would prefer something more entomophobic friendly
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arnsholt masak: True, true. But it turns out that my LaTeX doesn't like it =) 16:05
masak arnsholt: if only there were some convenient tool which can process text. preferably with regular expressions... 16:06
carlin: TreeSnake? :) 16:07
rakudo: say (* ~~ Whatever).WHAT 16:09
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: Int()␤
masak Int!?
can I submit this as a bug?
arnsholt masak: =p 16:10
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arnsholt I got that particular wrinkle fixed 16:10
Now it's something different
masak rakudo: say ("OH HAI" ~~ Str).WHAT
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: Int()␤
masak submits rakudobug
carlin masak: preferably something non-venomous 16:11
TreeKitten :-) 16:12
Although that may upset the ailurophobiacs
16:12 SmokeMachine left
colomon_ ummm. 16:14
rakudo: " " ~~ m/ <ws>+ / ; say $/;
appears to hang on my system.
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: ( no output )
colomon_ wth?
rakudo: " " ~~ m/ \s+ /; say $/; 16:15
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: ␤
colomon_ rakudo: " " ~~ m/ (\s+) /; say $/;
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: ␤
colomon_ rakudo: " " ~~ m/ <ws> /; say $/; 16:16
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: ␤
colomon_ hmmm....
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mberends masak: spider is the "TraversalControlFlowManager" and spidey is the little guy that moves around ;) 16:34
masak heh :) in my implementation, I call the spidey '$!current' 16:37
holli_ anybody seen "Avatar" yet? 16:46
i wonder if it's worth the 15€ for the 3D show 16:47
masak my eyes are of the kind that they don't pick up 3D, so I wonder too. :) 16:50
holli_ huh? i assuma 16:51
e you're talkkin about artificial 3d
masak no, I only have 2D vision. 16:52
I've never seen depth.
holli_ how does this work? or rather "not work"
unless you have only one eye left of course 16:53
masak early in infancy the brain does a check: can it get the eyes to produce a coherent signal necessary to build a 3D experience?
if it can't (as in my case), it turns off that ability.
I do have both eyes, but they don't do the consensus bit. 16:54
I went to a 3D movie a couple of months back. waste of time :) 16:55
and not only because the movie was really bad. ('Final Destination')
holli_ wtf? final destination is cool. 16:56
masak I think we'll have to disagree on that point. :)
holli_ but i envision you had some interesting experiences in school sports
masak I was never very good, if that's what you mean. but I guess that goes for most geeks.
I got pretty decent at dancing. :) 16:57
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holli_ i mean like not catching balls because of a misconception how far its away et al 16:58
masak it happens, yeah.
I'll probably never excel at tennis and badminton for that reason -- even if I try real hard.
holli_ me neither. i'm too small =) 17:01
masak :)
holli_ lol. i'll buy for $100 ( thedailyworsethanfailure.com/Buy.aspx ) 17:07
masak holli_: if you go with Perl 6, your lines of code will last longer! 17:11
holli_ tell me again next xmas. when we have something production ready =) 17:13
masak quite. different people get on at different times. 17:14
carlin I wonder what rakudo will be like next Christmas
holli_
.oO( rakudo bucks )
 17:15
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masak oh dear. 17:24
I just got this error message:
compiler returned NULL ByteCode './lib/GGE/TreeSpider.pir' - The opcode 'getattribute_p_ic_sc' (getattribute<3>) was not found. Check the type and number of the arguments
is that... bad? :/
holli_ say these .pir files, are they hand written or generated from something?
masak holli_: Rakudo has the ability to compile Perl 6 code down to .pir files. 17:25
holli_: I do that because it decreases startup time, by not having to parse all the source files each time.
holli_ looks like i'm still confused of how rakuperl6 is bootstrapped/implemented 17:26
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masak may I recommend this? perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/rakudo-overview.html 17:27
Tene ack. only like 5 days left before christmas. I should start working on my secret project. 17:28
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masak Tene: yes, you should. 17:28
holli_ mask: interesting. thx 17:29
Tene I'll start on it tonight, then.
AFK, grinding social reputation.
holli_ reputation is overrated 17:30
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mberends speaking of sekrits, I was thinking of blogging in Perl6Advent about 'vill', if it's generally considered an appropriate kind of article and if someone scheduled for one of the few remaining days is willing to donate the space. 17:41
masak rakudo: class A { has $!to; method x { loop { (:$!to); } } } 17:42
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: The opcode 'getattribute_p_ic_sc' (getattribute<3>) was not found. Check the type and number of the arguments␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
masak submits horrible rakudobug
mberends: I definitely don't speak for everyone -- and I'd love for vill to get attention. but what makes it deserve space in the Advent Calendar more than Elf, Sprixel or M0ld? 17:45
holli_ so vill is yap6i?
masak I've gotten awfully profit-centered lately, seeing people be inspired for Perl 6 from reading the blog. I hope we can use the last few days to keep doing that. a vill post might pull in interest towards vill, but at the expense of pulling in interest towards Perl 6. maybe. 17:47
on the other hand, pmichaud_ is thinking of doing an ng branch post on the 24th, so I guess I should have similar reservations against that. :)
mberends masak: The Advent theme has been excellent examples of Perl 6 language, so a new implementation announcement is a bit off topic. Elf, Sprixel and M0ld are even more worthy, but I'm less qualified to write about them. 17:48
PerlJam What is vill exactly?
rjbs As a random reader of the p6advent blog, it would take a *lot* for me to be interested in reading about yet another implementation rather than language features. 17:49
mberends a viv + llvm mashup, to compile native executables from a Perl 6 subset
PerlJam gotch
masak mberends: again, no offense intended, but it would be a bit like: cool code... cool code... cool code... would people be interested to help me work on my implementation which is just getting started and doesn't do 1% of the things we've shown here lately?
PerlJam er, gotcha
holli_ viv? llvm? 17:51
mberends yeah, I had my doubts anyway, I think you guys make good points.
masak holli_: viv is that STD.pm converted we just talked about. llvm is a virtual machine.
PerlJam We did talk the other day about continuing to do a perl6 post a day in the new year. (similar to the advent calendar, but perhaps the focus could be broadened a bit) 17:52
masak mberends: I -do- think we should go out with a bang somehow. and with all due respect, I'm not sure pmichaud_'s ng branch post is it either. but pmichaud_ has surprised me before, so I'll withhold judgement. besides, I don't have any better ideas at present. 17:53
PerlJam: interesting.
rjbs PerlJam: I think if you do that, you'll want to have themed runs. 17:54
like "January is all about foo"
so that it's easier to tune in or out
masak and a plan for how to keep the volunteers motivated.
PerlJam indeed.
masak the 1-post-a-day tempo is all fine for December...
holli_ .o( oh yeah, baby. motivate me ) 17:55
PerlJam 1 a week could work.
masak PerlJam: many of us are doing that already :)
PerlJam true :)
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holli_ at the yapc, mst promised to blog about catalyst once a week for one year. 17:55
or otherwise he'd pay a penalty of some sort (forgot what it was exactly) 17:56
masak well, blog about Perl.
holli_ but i think it inviolved his hair
masak and the penalty was that someone got to choose talk title and hair color for mst for an upcoming conference. 17:57
PerlJam masak: perhaps a nice moniker for people to rally behind would be good as far as publicity and garnering contributors beyond the current #perl6 regulars 17:58
"Your Weekly Perl 6"
holli_ do we have an official mascot yet? pleaso not this stupid butterfly 17:59
PerlJam holli_: Camelia is the official mascot.
mberends holli_: aww, you may have just hurt Larry Wall's feelings ;) 18:00
masak holli_: it's the stupid butterfly.
holli_: besides, it's cute! :)
.oO( embrace your inner butterfly... )
PerlJam holli_: denigrating someone else's work or ideas is hardly in the spirit of the Perl 6 community. 18:01
holli_ yeah, you're right. i'm sorry.
but www.yopi.de/image/prod_pics/23/e/23562.jpg
masak hugme: hug holli_
hugme hugs holli_
holli_ lol 18:02
rjbs nice bot
holli_ to clarify: in germany camelia is a sanitary (womens) towel 18:03
mberends holli_: I'm not that impressed by the butterfly either, fwiw
masak I used to have my doubts about the butterfly, but not anymore. 18:04
holli_ and actually, the butterfly would be a nice fit on the towel package xD
PerlJam holli_, mberends: You're free to try your hand at coming up with something better.
:-)
holli_ i'd chose some kind of parrot, one distinct kind for every implementation 18:05
mberends my efforts would be worse, I recall earlier discussions on this subject as well.
holli_ ah no, too specific
probably camelia will share fate with the onion. 18:08
let's see what o'reilly comes up with xD
pmurias likes camelia 18:09
carlin www.oreilly.de/catalog/newcovers/97...79_cat.gif
holli_ now that's a strong beast =) 18:10
colomon_ 's little boy likes camelia 18:31
PerlJam And that's the strongest commendation for Camelia that I can think of. 18:33
mberends :) 18:34
colomon_ It actually has gotten to be a bit of a problem, because if he sees Camelia on the top of the #perl6 log, he fusses if I scroll away from it... 18:36
masak :D 18:41
18:42 pmurias joined 18:54 nihiliad joined
masak food & 18:57
18:57 matsuzine joined 19:02 ash___ joined, pmurias left 19:04 [particle]1 joined 19:09 [particle] left 19:17 matsuzine left 19:23 nacho__ joined 19:39 nihiliad1 joined, nihiliad left 20:00 nihiliad1 left 20:06 IllvilJa left 20:09 kensanata joined 20:23 pmurias joined 20:42 pmurias_ joined, pmurias_ left 20:44 pmurias left 20:50 colomon_ left, colomon joined, pmurias joined
pugs_svn r29382 | pmurias++ | [mildew-js] compiled code now lives in js-compiled 20:58
r29382 | removed debugging leftover in say
20:58 colomon left
pugs_svn r29383 | pmurias++ | [mildew] remove unused STD snapshot 20:58
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masak mwhaha! 21:42
I'm back to bother you with my endless bug reports :) 21:43
rakudo: class A { method foo(@a: $x) { say $x } }; A.new.foo("OH HAI")
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: ( no output )
masak locally, "OH HAI"
masak submits rakudobug
rakudo: class A { method foo($_: $b) {} }; A.new.foo(1, 2)
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: ( no output ) 21:44
masak locally, "Too many positional parameters passed; got 3 but expected 2"
(which is fine, but now...)
rakudo: class A { method foo($_: %b) {} }; A.new.foo(1, 2)
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: ( no output )
masak locally, "Nominal type check failed for parameter '11111111111000000000100000101100'; expected Associative but got Int instead"
(which means that locally, I'm doing this: o.O) 21:45
masak submits rakudobug
rakudo: sub foo(%h) {}; foo(1, 2) 21:50
p6eval rakudo 8dc189: ''' is not a valid sprintf format␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
masak something weird is definitely going on here...
jnthn ...wtf... 22:03
Yes, weird indeed.
Looks like a bug in generating the error message.
masak ah, there you are. :) 22:04
I'm starting to find those holes in the new binder you requested long ago. :)
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masak one of the silly error messages even has a fan on Twitter. :) 22:05
jnthn oh great, soon CNN will be reporting on it then.
masak only a matter of time. :)
jnthn has been kinda ill today. :-/
masak :/ 22:06
here it is: twitter.com/flexibeast/status/6598140411
when you take it literally, it's acutally kinda... interesting.
jnthn hehe
masak did it expect 1.5 parameters?
jnthn I wonder how on earth it's managed to come up with *that* error.
masak jnthn: I know, I checked. 22:07
jnthn: there's a variable called whoz_op...
I am not making this up.
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jnthn ;-) 22:07
masak I can't imagine who wrote this code...
jnthn Me either.
masak anyway,
whoz_op assumes that the error message was caused for legitimate reasons.
jnthn Guy should probably be shot or something.
masak or punished by having to implement Perl 6. 22:08
or something.
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jnthn Well, at least we get something useful out of that approach. ;-) 22:08
Heh, I doubt we should end up in that routine if we've got not got an arg count mis-match.
masak this error, however, did not occur under circumstances which, in layman speech, "should happen".
jnthn Oh? 22:09
I'm guessing we somehow construct a very wrong signature object.
masak thus, whoz_op falls back on the number of parameters being too few, since there is no third choice.
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masak jnthn: the problem is that the error should be caught at compile time. 22:09
jnthn Ah.
That's why the binder doesn't handle it then. 22:10
masak and when it isn't, the impossible happens, and hurts a bit.
jnthn Yeah
So the fix is enforcing the zone constraints or something I guess.
But anyway, at least it isn't a binder bug, just a lack of error detection earlier.
Which should be easy to fix.
Anyways, I'm sure you've filed a ticket so it won't get forgotten. :-) 22:11
masak there is a ticket.
jnthn masak++
masak that's how the guy on Twitter saw it.
apparently, people read my tickets. :>
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jnthn masak: Yeah, I do that occasionally too. 22:14
masak cool.
jnthn There's been this branch distracting me of late though.
masak jnthn: so, what about that branch?
it should have been merged ages ago, eh? 22:15
masak is impatient
jnthn Yes, it's dragged out.
It's ended up doing more stuff than I first expected.
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masak first it was to be merged for the November release... 22:15
carlin so it has branched out a bit?
masak and then for the December release... 22:16
at the latest early January...
I think it would be good to merge it soon, so that we have a chance to make the April release stable. 22:17
jnthn Yes, me too.
But it's kinda not exactly ready yet. :-|
We don't even really have hashes together.
masak it'd be easier if we weren't blocking on stuff that we can't help with.
things like laziness. 22:18
pmichaud_ keeps saying he has it covered.
jnthn I think part of the problem is that it hasn't been done before and the spec is evolving.
but yes, I really hope pmichaud will be able to get that in shape Real Soon. 22:19
masak I'm expressing concern and impatience because it seems to me that we are slipping from our estimates.
and that means that we'll have to compromise on things.
jnthn Oh, I'd agree it's slipped a long way.
Well, yes. It's just a case of "what do we want to compromise on". 22:20
masak the estimates themselves were pretty optimistic, to be sure. but for a while it seemed they were possible.
I don't want to compromise on anything. I want all the things slated for April. :)
if I knew back in August that they were in jeopardy, I would have groaned louder, sooner. 22:21
jnthn The fact that the branch covers laziness and enables most of the priority 1 items in the roadmap (or does them) is an encouraging sign.
But yes, I am concerned. 22:22
masak equip me with the means to make a difference, and I'll help.
jnthn We really, really should try and get this merged by the next release, but that feels oh so close already.
masak but right now my hands are tied, and I don't know what to do.
jnthn The ability to write stuff in the setting is already in place - that's a place to help. 22:24
colomon++ has found plenty to do and done plenty
The iterator design/impl missing is quite an issue at the moment though.
masak I'll have another look at the setting. 22:25
jnthn I really didn't expect us to not have that laid down by now.
masak: Another thing that you may or may not be interested in is starting to sketch out Hash.
masak that sounds like fun.
jnthn Starting from role Hash[::T] does Associative[T] { ... } and filling it out from there.
masak \o/ 22:26
jnthn A Parrot Hash PMC can be used for underlying storage.
masak nodnod.
jnthn I think we can write the whole thing in the setting.
masak 'write the whole thing in one sitting'
jnthn I've been working on parametric roles.
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masak cool. 22:26
jnthn Almost there.
masak enough to do the above?
jnthn Wanted to finish it this weekend, but haven't felt up to it.
masak do you have a cold? 22:27
jnthn I think so
masak gesuntheit.
jnthn Not a bad one as such. Just feel rather tireder than expected.
And struggling to concentrate on much. And working on ng tends to need some concentratoin.
masak aye. 22:28
ash___ jnthn: i think i figured out part of whats wrong with RoleHOW#methods, its expecting the thing passed to be a RoleHOW, doing A.HOW.methods(A.HOW) seems okay, altough i am getting a funny result and am not sure why
jnthn Anyway, I'm hoping some decent sleep tonight might have me in better shape tomorrow.
masak it seems pmichaud_ has similar issues, but with holidays instead of a cold.
22:29 meppl joined
jnthn ash___: Yes. I think there's a design isuse somewhere in it all, but I'm not clear headed enough to think it through just yet. 22:30
masak: Yup.
masak: I've holidays here too, but it's going to be fairly quiet.
masak same here.
jnthn I'm hoping that I'll be able to spend some decent time on Rakudo over the next week or so.
masak \o/ 22:31
jnthn++ # Get Well Soon
jnthn Thanks :-)
ash___ well, i have it returnning the right list now, but its acting funny, like its not getting turned into a rakudo type, like if i say: "say Foo.^methods" it returns the lenght of the array, and if i do $a = Foo.&methods; say $a.WHAT; i get an error saying "WHAT" not found on "ResizablePMCArray" 22:32
jnthn There's a bit of a bootstrapping issue there, yes.
ash___ being sick's no good jnthn, get better soon
jnthn Problem is that we want to use the metaclass when defining various List and Array classes. 22:33
So we can't rely on them being available.
But we also want to return instances of them.
:-)
We'll probably have to just replace those methods at a certain point in the bootstrap with ones that do the Right Thing. 22:34
ash___ i was thinking maybe there is a way to send it to the ClassHOW methods
then you'd only need to maintain 1 instance of the function and then just have RoleHOW go to it maybe? 22:35
jnthn No
I did ponder that route at one point.
Thing is that RoleHOW keeps the data mostly in its attributes directly.
We don't use the underlying Parrot role for very much now.
Whereas ClassHOW will keep on using the Parrot class PMC. 22:36
In the end (but not in ng) I probably want to write RoleHOW in NQP. 22:37
(Eventually maybe ClassHOW too, but we'll see.)
Anyway, I think we'll have to adopt a "replace it later" approach. 22:38
ash___ okay, well, for now i made a small change that got RoleHOW#methods to get to the right stuff so it doesn't give an error 22:39
jnthn We can avoid a lot of issues by getting the ordering of things right, but not everything, I fear.
ash___: OK. And roles still work?
As in, the composition stuff?
ash___ yeah
jnthn OK, great.
(They use .methods to find the methods to compose. :-)) 22:40
ash___++
heh heh # "to see if jnthn++ freaks
"
jnthn will review that change more tomorrow and decide whether to freak or not. 22:41
;-)
ash___ are you sure?
i added a few says and a _dumper to the pir code for RoleHOW.methods and it only is getting called once
well, the output's happening once
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ash___ so i assume its only getting called once 22:42
and its only when i call it
jnthn ash___: See RoleToRoleApplier.nqp for example.
Heh. "cool typing". 22:43
ash___ jnthn: i see why i am not getting any problems, in RoleToClassApplier.nqp they avoid directly calling the .methods funciton 22:45
i'll check if it works with RoleToRoleApplier.nqp
yup, it does call it 22:46
but it still working
just need to figure out how to turn ResizablePMCArray into a rakudo type
do you know how?
22:48 jimi_hendrix left
jnthn ash___: Now, it's calling it. 22:48
for @composees {
my @methods := $_.HOW.methods($_.HOW);
ash___ ng is very lazy, it didn't compose the second role I defined until i actually call use it
jnthn: well, what I am trying to fix is when you use RoleName.^methods; in your actual code 22:49
ng: role A { }; say A.^methods;
p6eval ng 9d5018: No such attribute 'parrotclass'␤current instr.: 'perl6;RoleHOW;methods' pc 4866 (src/metamodel/RoleHOW.pir:47)␤
ash___ all i effectively did was:
ng: role A { }; say A.HOW.methods(A.HOW);
p6eval ng 9d5018: 0␤
ash___ i just added a check to methods to see if the first param was a RoleHOW, if not i call 'HOW' on the object 22:50
jnthn ash___: The problem is that List does Positional, Positional has methods and so we can't use List at that point. 22:51
Since role composition needs to use .methods
masak I don't know why, but I'm constantly surprised that the \ in push @a, \%h; is necessary.
ash___ hmm *that went over my head*
jnthn ash___: The right Rakudo type to return would most likely be a List. 22:52
masak ash___: jnthn is suffering from the fact that he can't use the full arsenal of the type system during the construction of same.
ash___ so, the right type that should return is a list, but that's not useable at that point since list require .methods?
jnthn ash___: But we need to call the methods method of RoleHOW before the class List is defined.
ash___ okay, i see
jnthn ash___: Yes, thus why I suspect we may have to patch in / update those methods later in the "bootstrap". 22:53
ash___ okay, yeah that makes sense
jnthn masak: That surprises me a bit too.
masak jnthn: hashes flatten to a list of pairs there. 22:54
jnthn masak: I mean, I know why it...yes, right.
masak yes, same here.
I know why, but it feels... odd.
jnthn Yeah. A place you have to care about "references" in a sea of not caring.
masak maybe the semantics are wrong, and neither arrays nor hashes should flatten in Perl 6 push :) 22:55
and so you'll have to use prefix:<|> for both when you actually want flattening.
ash___ jnthn: does that seem right to you? to have to replace a function like that at a later point? (is that the "Right way" to fix the problem?)
jnthn masak: I could go with that, but then it's siggy probably needs to change.
masak .oO( flattening will get you anywhere... )
jnthn
.oO( well flattering her got me nowhere, next time I'll try that... )
 22:56
ash___: It doesn't strike me as especially wrong.
ash___ jnthn: what if at runtime you wanted to compose a role and you had already replaced that method with a new one, would it still be compatable? 22:57
jnthn ash___: Should be provided the composer is able to deal with Rakudo arrays and Parrot arrays.
Which as it's currently written it probably should be. 22:58
masak: Question is what would the right signature for push be. 22:59
masak jnthn: the same, I think.
it's convenient to be able to push several things at once. 23:00
jnthn masak: No, it can't be.
masak: Binding to a slurpy param enforces list context.
masak: That's what causes the flattening.
masak oh!
jnthn masak: Also, what would you expect push @a, @b to do?
masak put the @b inside @a, at the end. 23:01
jnthn And not flatten it?
masak right.
in my new, imagined model.
jnthn Yeah, we kinda lack a way to take a variable number of arguments and not enforce the list context, I think.
*\@array would be the "logical" way to say htat I guess. ;-) 23:02
masak the current way, yes.
PerlJam greetings.
jnthn masak: My other comment if you had wanted push @a, @b to still flatten woulda been to ask "should a hash do .paris in list context? 23:03
oh hai, PerlJam
masak would like to do Paris
PerlJam If we have .paris, is there also .rome ?
jnthn masak: Hilton? ;-) 23:04
masak blushes
not necessarily.
she's not my type.
jnthn No, mine either.
masak: Anyway, it's an interesting question. It does feel a bit odd. 23:05
TimToady: fwiw, I need to give the Cool failover thing a bit more thought (preferably when my brain is in better working order). It doesn't make me immediately freak out. I'm curious why single dispatch has to care about the Cool package. I'm also curious what failover subs we'll put in there by default, e.g. will the most generic multi infix:<+> live in there too. 23:09
ash___ jnthn: do you know where the 'bootstrap' should take place? I am not sure where that should be happening 23:13
jnthn ash___: Not exactly, sorry. 23:15
ash___: It needs more thought yet.
ash___ k
thats fine
jnthn Will think on it when my thinker works better again. :-)
Feel free to take a look and propose a place too. 23:16
ash___ will do, i was just making sure there wasn't an established place already
masak look! pretty! gist.github.com/260687 23:18
ash___ in ClassHOW you call: new "Array" , which kind of array is that?
jnthn ash___: That'd be the Rakudo one, I believe. 23:19
ash___: We may get away with it there.
ash___: Or alternatively, it may be a relic.
ash___ jnthn: alright, just checking 23:20
jnthn masak: Nice!!
masak++
masak jnthn: that's the new traversal engine at work. :)
I'm -so- glad I developed it standalone before trying to get it working inside GGE. 23:21
it was a lot of work to develop it standalone, and it's a lot of work now.
the two combined would likely have made me give up. 23:22
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jnthn Wow. By the time my new laptop reaches me it will have been through 4 countries already. :) 23:24
jnthn is hopefull he'll have it tomorrow
Then my Rakudo compiles will be a LOT faster!
otoh, the snow may spoil things.
ash___ what kind of new toy did you get? 23:25
23:25 will_ left
jnthn ash___: A new ThinkPad. 23:26
ash___: Hoped to have it a week or two ago, but they've been a bit slow to build and ship it.
ash___ jnthn: holiday rush i am sure 23:27
jnthn ash___: Aye.
I'm hoping for fast compiles since it's got some solid state caching in too. :-)
masak fast compiles for jnthn means Rakudo gets better faster \o/ 23:28
ash___ does it have a solid state hard drive?
those are amazing, i can't wait for their prices to come down 23:29
jnthn ash___: No, too pricey. I went for conventional hard drive but one of those Intel Turbo thingies. 23:30
That keeps a solid state cache of your most frequently accessed stuff.
Not sure how well it works. 23:31
But wasn't especially expensive to add, so figured it was worth a try. :-)
OK, time for me to take some rest.
ash___ wonder how those work. i have always wished they had a combo drive for laptop's that was part solid state part normal drive, but i can see why, partically speaking, thats hard to do 23:32
jnthn Catch y'all tomorrow.
ash___ jnthn: if i make any productive progress on the role thing i'll send you a patch
jnthn ash___: Yay! Thanks. :-)
o/
pmurias jnthn: does the compilation access enough stuff that it won't all fit in the ram? 23:34
23:41 silent11 joined 23:42 colomon joined
pugs_svn r29384 | pmurias++ | [mildew] removing debugging leftover 23:42
r29385 | pmurias++ | [mildew-js] optimalisation, .DISPATCH() can return a value
23:45 soupdragon joined 23:57 eternaleye joined

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