»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 25 June 2013.
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[Coke] huh. looks like I might have had some stray rakudo.jvm build processes laying around on the daily test box. might explain why today's build ran OOM. 00:30
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[Coke] looks like. hopefully next run, all 3 will work. 00:44
colomon [Coke]++ 00:52
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colomon m: say "132".chars 01:51
camelia rakudo-moar 1a28ed: OUTPUT«3␤»
colomon m: say 132.chars
camelia rakudo-moar 1a28ed: OUTPUT«3␤»
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colomon Perl6::Tracer? 02:18
Hmmm, interestingly low tech solution there. 02:19
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grondilu r: END BEGIN say "A"; say "B"; BEGIN END say "C"; 02:30
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 1a28ed: OUTPUT«A␤B␤C␤»
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nwc10 fwierzbicki.blogspot.co.at/2014/05/...eased.html 05:22
although [hard to explain this in polite words] system won't actually show you any content without JavaScript enabled 05:23
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nwc10 the basic content plain text - why so many levels of stupid? 05:23
oh yes, JS needed from two seemingly unrelated domains 05:25
xiaomiao ah, blarghspot 05:26
nwc10 "…you will see that we are about to have a report from the hairdressers fire development subcommittee today. "
etc
xiaomiao they still have a CSS fuckup that covers the first ~20 lines of text
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xiaomiao nwc10: I guess the URL contains all the interesting stuff anyway 05:27
nwc10 xiaomiao: yes. that's an excellent summary
also, it doesn't seen to be mentioned on jython.org yet
xiaomiao the best part about all that JS is that it slows down page load times to at best ~15sec for me, if I were to allow everything 05:28
a static html dump would be a lot more useful 05:29
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grondilu std: say q{[foo] bar} ~~ / '[' ~ ']' .* /; 05:43
camelia std ec3d853: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 125m␤»
grondilu r: say q{[foo] bar} ~~ / '[' ~ ']' .* /;
camelia rakudo-jvm 1a28ed: OUTPUT«Unable to parse expression in ; couldn't find final ']' ␤ in any FAILGOAL at gen/jvm/stage2/QRegex.nqp:1146␤ in method ACCEPTS at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:13026␤ in block at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
..rakudo-moar 1a28ed: OUTPUT«Unable to parse expression in ; couldn't find final ']' ␤ in any FAILGOAL at gen/moar/stage2/QRegex.nqp:1146␤ in method ACCEPTS at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:13083␤ in block at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
..rakudo-parrot 1a28ed: OUTPUT«Unable to parse expression in ; couldn't find final ']' ␤ in any FAILGOAL at gen/parrot/stage2/QRegex.nqp:1143␤ in regex at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤ in method ACCEPTS at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:13049␤ in method ACCEPTS at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:794…»
grondilu n: say q{[foo] bar} ~~ / '[' ~ ']' .* /; 05:44
camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to parse anonymous regex␤Couldn't find final ']'; gave up␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1536 (die @ 5) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2962 (Cursor.FAILGOAL @ 6) ␤ at /tmp/pRPpFHh7x…»
grondilu :/
TimToady the final ']' is a hard requirement, not something to backtrack from
it's hard to produce the correct error message otherwise 05:46
grondilu doesn't understand
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TimToady you can't commit to an error message without a commit point 05:47
so this is optimized for writing grammars where the inner expression naturally excludes the terminator 05:48
and you can always write '[' .* ']' to mean the other thing
but when a .* is backtracking, it doesn't know what caused it to backtrack 05:49
and if it doesn't know, it can't tell the user what is missing
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grondilu ok 05:51
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TimToady '[' ~ ']' <thing> is really shorthand for '[' <thing> [ '[' || <.panic: "Couldn't find '['> ] 05:51
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TimToady er, find ']' rather 05:52
Woodi morning ! :) 05:55
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Woodi installing star usualy was like: unpack, cd parrot && install, cd ../nqp && install, cd .., configure && install. but 2014.14 requires additional: cd rakudo configure && cd .. && make && make install it gives me .moarvm modules files 06:00
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TimToady I just did: perl Configure.pl --backend=parrot,jvm,moar --gen-parrot --gen-moar, then 'make' and 'make install' like it said in the README, and it seems to have worked fine 06:05
though, oddly, the perl6 in the top dir was parrot's while the perl6 in the bin dir was java's 06:06
(and I really wanted it to be moar's, oh well)
masak morning, #perl6 06:08
TimToady o/ 06:10
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masak vaskozl_: 06:28
$ (echo "line one"; echo "line two") | perl6 -pe '$_ ~= "!"'
line one!
line two!
oh, I was talking to a stale backlog -- sorry ;)
anyway, I disagree that this behavior sucks. it feels like a very sane default to me. 06:29
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masak r: 0x0123456789abcdef.perl.say 06:42
camelia rakudo-moar 1a28ed: OUTPUT«81985529216486896␤»
..rakudo-{parrot,jvm} 1a28ed: OUTPUT«81985529216486895␤»
masak skids: is that one rakudobug-submitted?
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FROGGS Woodi: you should get a nice message including examples when you run 'Configure.PL' in latest star without the --backends option 06:51
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FROGGS Woodi: so, best is to not cd into parrot at all, but let Configure.PL do this for you 06:52
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FROGGS r: say $*EXECUTABLE; say $*EXECUTABLE_NAME 06:54
camelia rakudo-jvm 1a28ed: OUTPUT«IO::Path</home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2/bin/perl6-j>␤perl6-j␤»
..rakudo-parrot 1a28ed: OUTPUT«IO::Path</home/p6eval/rakudo-inst/bin/perl6-p>␤./rakudo-inst/bin/perl6-p␤»
..rakudo-moar 1a28ed: OUTPUT«IO::Path</home/p6eval/rakudo-inst/bin/perl6-m>␤perl6-m␤»
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Woodi I trying to use Perl6 software like normal software so I never use --gen-*. VM is one piece and probably rest are too... so why making it different from apache, etc ? 06:55
masak in preparing code examples and demos for the Python course, I was impressed by many things. but when I got to looping over lines, and I had to manually chomp off the newline, I went "man, that's so primitive".
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masak it doesn't get better by Python basically only having .rstrip for this. which is wrong for two reasons: (a) what if I want to get rid of the newline but keep other (horizontal) whitespace around? (b) that 'r' in 'rstrip' is not very considerate of RTL languages. 06:56
Woodi and configure in star top dir didn't generate rakudo/Makefile 06:57
FROGGS Woodi: before 2014.04 the configure script assumed that there is only parrot out there, which is not true anymore
Woodi: so instead of start running and building something that the user might not want, it asks you for details
Woodi: I don't see any problems with that
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FROGGS for normal configure scripts you also have options like: --with-tls and --no-tls 06:58
Woodi do --gen assumes install into ./install ?
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FROGGS we just don't have a default for --backends 06:58
--gen has nothing todo with --prefix, no 06:59
Woodi I thinked it was before
FROGGS no
if you omit --prefix, it defaults to ./install
I think when MoarVM is more and more mature, it might be the default for star (for one because it builds within a fraction of the others) 07:00
Woodi so I probably need just --prefix and --backend switches 07:01
FROGGS but we need to get rid of another 80% of the precomp bugs and need to get concurrency stable
Woodi: no, you need the --gen-moar --gen-parrot also I think
Woodi --gen-usually was for cloning from github... 07:02
FROGGS because otherwise it assumes that these are already built, and complains otehrwise
--gen will only clone when the requested revision is not already there as a folder
which is never true for star
so, perl Configure.pl --backends=moar,jvm,parrot --gen-moar --gen-parrot is all you need 07:03
(until we decide to set defaults)
but then you probably get moar only 07:04
at least, that is my gut feeling
Woodi ah, right. so I still like to install them manually :)
FROGGS that is still an option :o)
thou if moar and nqp are in your PATH and recent enough, you won't need --gen-* 07:05
FROGGS either PATH or --prefix (or ./install/bin/* is prefix wasn't set) 07:06
thou yeah
FROGGS at least that is what it *should* do
Woodi actually PATH-way do not work... I instal into /opt/somewhere and link to /opt/bin and nqp do not see moar
FROGGS Woodi: can't you override PATH during build-time? 07:07
Woodi hmm, override ? I'm forced to specify --prefix... 07:08
parrot-nqp and -rakudo detect corectly, with moar I need to use --prefix for everything 07:09
FROGGS yes, but to find moar you could do: PATH="/path/to/moar/bin/:$PATH" your-build-script.sh
Woodi horror...
FROGGS but I don't know the details, so there might be an opportunity to fix something about your issues withing moar/nqp/rakudo's build scripts 07:10
Woodi I have correct PATH setup in .bashrc (probably) :)
FROGGS: actually I comfortably cloned 'perl Configure.pl --prefix=/opt/lib/graft/star-201404 --backend=moar' + \n in few subdirs and everything installed correctly :) 07:11
FROGGS okay :o) 07:12
Woodi then links to /opt/bin and can use Perl6 :)
xiaomiao mmh, I do like having a package manager take care of all those weird details ... :) 07:14
masak r: 0x0123456789abcdef.perl.say 07:15
camelia rakudo-moar 1a28ed: OUTPUT«81985529216486896␤»
..rakudo-{parrot,jvm} 1a28ed: OUTPUT«81985529216486895␤»
masak submits rakudobug
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moritz n: 0x0123456789abcdef.perl.say 08:12
camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«81985529216486895␤» 08:13
moritz r: say 81985529216486896 - 81985529216486895
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm} 1a28ed: OUTPUT«1␤»
..rakudo-moar 1a28ed: OUTPUT«0␤»
moritz at least moar is consistent :-)
m: say 81985529216486896 * 2 08:14
camelia rakudo-moar 1a28ed: OUTPUT«163971058432973792␤»
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dalek kudo/nom: 8574c4f | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (2 files):
obtain execname from runner scripts for jvm too
 08:18
sergot hi o/ ! 08:21
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masak ooh, Crockford++ wants to introduce the infix:<~> concatenation operator into JavaScript. www.techtalkshub.com/douglas-crockf...avascript/ 08:27
I wonder where he got that symbol from? :>
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nwc10 :-) 08:29
that's one measure of success - people are now stealing stuff 08:30
vendethiel good thing crockford can't exactly do what he wants, though 08:31
but yep, we know where that's coming from (C of course) 08:33
(C has far too many string manipulation operators, while we're at it :P)
optional static type checking ? he's probably better just writing a p6-js backend :p 08:34
tadzik um, ~ doesn't concat strings in C
frankly, nothing concats strings in C
vendethiel that's the joke 08:35
tadzik oh :)
I'll go get a coffee
masak not concating strings with an operator is the least of C's string-related problems. 08:36
vendethiel maybe that's because C doesn't have strings :p
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masak .oO( "arrays of bytes ought to be enough for everyone" ) 08:37
vendethiel I actually think C++ is getting a string::split function in C++14 or C++17 ! (need to check C++1y) This is revolutionary 08:38
tadzik I didn't even write "goan get a coffee", as I usually do. What a morning 08:41
starting from a broken metro/underground/subway
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masak dang, all three of them broken at the same time? :P 08:42
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vendethiel
.oO( not worth the hassle having them all )
 08:43
tadzik heh, I wish we had more than one. Or, today, even one :D 08:44
xiaomiao I find such transportation quite convenient 08:45
as long as they don't collide and the escalators don't spontaneously reverse direction
vendethiel (and as long people don't pull the emergency stop thingie or even suicide ...) 08:48
tadzik yeah, that sucks 08:50
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dalek c: 9cc0b14 | (Tobias Leich)++ | lib/variables.pod:
document $*EXECUTABLE and note caveats of $*EXECUTABLE_NAME
 08:58
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FROGGS hmmmm, p-clean wipes dynext/*.so, which also cleans up dynext/libperl6_ops_moar.so :( 09:01
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dalek kudo/nom: a64b6df | (Tobias Leich)++ | tools/build/Makefile-Parrot.in:
p-clean should only clean up its own libs
 09:05
FROGGS ~/dev/rakudo/t$ perl6-p -e 'say $*EXECUTABLE; say $*EXECUTABLE_NAME' 09:06
IO::Path</home/froggs/dev/rakudo/t/perl6-p>
perl6-p
okay, that one wants fixing
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lizmat good *, #perl6! 10:27
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sjn m: good *; #perl6 10:31
camelia rakudo-moar a64b6d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/HcLFpOz0xz␤Undeclared routine:␤ good used at line 1␤␤»
sjn aw :/ 10:32
m: *.good;
camelia ( no output )
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colomon *.good indeed 10:47
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lizmat has been wondering about pragma's and the interaction with S11's use auth/ver capabilities 10:49
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lizmat feels to me that conflating pragma's and "use" is so 20th century 10:49
FROGGS wonders now also 10:50
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lizmat do we want pragma's to also have auth/ver ? 10:50
FROGGS hmmm
dunno
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FROGGS when they are moduleish, perhaps 10:51
I mean, the one pragma we have atm is just a module with a lowercase name
lizmat and which is faulty, really (assuming you're referring to "use lib" ) 10:52
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lizmat the other is of course "use MONKEYTYPING" 10:52
FROGGS why is it faulty?
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lizmat because it's influence isn't scoped 10:52
*its
FROGGS ahh 10:53
well, that is doable
lizmat sure... :-)
however, I'm starting to lean towards "pragma {}" being a first class citizen 10:54
like module / class / grammar
FROGGS hmmm
does it have another behaviour?
or other defaults? 10:55
lizmat well, something like:
pragma { switch-on { code to switch on pragma } switch-off { code to switch off pragma } } 10:56
FROGGS ahh, the support for 'no something'
lizmat when invoked, e.g. with "override strict"
yes 10:57
but without the "no" :-)
FROGGS why?
lizmat I would think "no" is to short hufmann coded for something so special
"override strict"
FROGGS O.o
override in what way? 10:58
lizmat like "no strict" in perl 5
"ensure strict" as the opposite
FROGGS yeah, but override does not mean to turn something *off*
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FROGGS I'd like to keep 'use' 10:59
lizmat why?
FROGGS I do not like to see other keywords that have an (almost) identical meaning 11:00
since lib.pm is just a module
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lizmat but that's you projecting the implementation :-) 11:02
use lib happens to be a pragma (at least in my book)
that happens to be implemented using library loading code 11:03
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lizmat actually, maybe "lib" should be loaded always already 11:07
FROGGS well yeah, that is the thing about pragmas... these might be already 'loaded' and you just tweak them lexically
lizmat so we don't need to search for it (which may depend on how what a previous incantation of "use lib" has done)
FROGGS but still, do we need extra keywords? 11:08
lizmat well, we need a decision on that soonish
atm, pragma's are underdeveloped in Perl 6
and changes in that area would be relatively painless
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FROGGS question is: do we want to disallow that ppl write their own pragmas? 11:09
moritz absolutely not
lizmat let me just stop this for now, and just state that using "use" for pragma smells to me
FROGGS because then: use lib:auth<FROGGS> ... won't be possible anymore
lizmat indeed, people should be able to use their own pragma's
FROGGS and when we do not want to disallow that, then pragmas are just lowercased modules
lizmat *make
FROGGS and I'm more a fan of unifying things than splitting things that are similar enough 11:10
because these tends to be more powerful if combined
you should only split things that do not work well together or are confusing 11:11
lizmat "or are confusing" it's that part that I'm worried about 11:12
anyway, "use" in Perl 6 is fundamentally different from "use" in Perl 5 because of auth/ver and its scopedness 11:14
and sometimes we don't realize yet how different, is my feeling 11:15
FROGGS but lets say we keep auth/var for pragmas also, and these are meant to be scoped like modules usages... where is the difference?
(within P6, not to P5)
if we had a clear break in behaviour, than I'd fully agree, but I do not see something yet 11:16
lizmat well, pragma's generally wouldn't export things
would they?
FROGGS hmmm
'warnings' could
lizmat what would "use warnings" export ? 11:17
FROGGS something like %*WARNINGS_CATS ?
that say something about the en-/disabled categories
'use vars' would export things :P 11:18
lizmat that again feels to me like abusing the "use" tool to create pragma functionality
FROGGS perhaps I don't know what a 'pragma functionality' is 11:19
lizmat but maybe we should stop this discussion now and see if masak, moritz, TimToady want to chime in
FROGGS yes :o)
lizmat no strict
it's a signal to the compiler
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FROGGS sure, there are things that need to interact very close to the compiler 11:32
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dalek ast: 61c0b71 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S17-supply/interval.t:
Add tests for Supply.interval
 11:43
kudo/nom: ebca0e8 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | t/spectest.data:
Make sure we test Supply.interval
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masak watching that Crockford video. 11:49
he has an interesting thesis: mainstream languages like JavaScript, Python, and Ruby got FP not because people asked for it, but because the language designers got that FP is good.
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moritz well, js had it from the start 11:51
(afaict)
and Guido doens't seem to be a huge FP fan to me (from a distance)
timotimo aye, he's said things that weren't especially positive about fp in the past, i think 11:55
or at least done
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masak moritz: JS had it from 1999, according to that talk. I don't know what Crockford considers to be the watershed moment, but that's four years in. 12:04
also from a distance, I have the feeling Guido values FP (at least in the form of list comprehensions, map, and filter), but he values simplicity/on-ramps more.
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colomon wow, DateTime::TimeZone is ludicrously slow to build under JVM. 12:07
vendethiel Guido liking functinal? I think I read him say that fold was too advanced to put it in python's stdlib ? 12:14
tadzik not sure if guido, but doesn't some pep un-recommend lambda becuase it's complicated? 12:16
s/un-recommend/discourage/ 12:17
masak vendethiel: these days, you have to 'from functools import reduce', which I think is fine. 'reduce' does come a distant third after 'map' and 'filter'. 12:19
vendethiel well, anyway, I really seem to disagree with crockford on that point. lambdas aren't even related to "functional programming", they're useful for a hundred times more things 12:20
moritz vendethiel: most people already consider function objects (or the ability to pass code around) "functional programming" 12:22
vendethiel I also think I disagree on that naming. I don't think you're "passing code around" -- that's what a macros does
moritz in that sense, lambdas are importint
vendethiel s/naming/terminology
moritz well, more like "code references" than "code" 12:23
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timotimo what's wrong with "higher-order functions"? 12:23
tadzik nothing, we love them
(ha ha)
timotimo :)
colomon timotimo: they're elitist.
vendethiel oooh
timotimo ooooh snap :)
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moritz hipster-order functions 12:24
timotimo :D
masak highbrow functions
timotimo did you see "devops against humanity"?
moritz nope
timotimo but Cards Against Humanity rings a bell? 12:25
masak hasn't seen any devops *for* humanity :P
colomon see back 17 minutes ago when I complained about how slow compiling DateTime::TimeZone was in JVM? It's still ongoing on my *fast* linux box.
moritz timotimo: only from hearsay
timotimo ah
colomon CAH is awesome
timotimo i didn't know how CAH works about a week ago
tadzik I'd welcome any CAH-alike that I can buy/print myself in PL :)
timotimo github.com/bridgetkromhout/devops-...manity.csv - pretty funny :3 12:26
colomon is not just saying that because it has provided gifts for his wife for two or three times a year… ;)
tadzik I just searched for them on our ebay equivalent, and I got some board games, some computer games and an album full of pictures from Auschwitz-Birkenau
colomon tadzik: pretty sure you can print CAH yourself.
tadzik oh!
timotimo yeah, the license allows for it
tadzik indeed, free download
timotimo iirc anyway.
tadzik colomon++
colomon tadzik: cardsagainsthumanity.com/ "download for free" 12:27
there's also a Polish translation, it looks like.
(again, downloadable for free)
tadzik I prefer things untranslated usually
colomon yeah, figured that but just wanted to mention it. 12:28
tadzik the only people I play games with that don't know english are my parents, and I think in that case I'
* I'll settle for Scrabble 12:29
(stupid return key)
colomon has refused to play CAH with his parents and in-laws.
tadzik hmm, printing 31 pages would be like $0.5 in a xero point nearby 12:31
FROGGS (Douglas Crockford)++ # WAT 12:34
tadzik I just glanced at a Linux magazine in a kitchen, and I read something about a ruby IRC bot that uses a similar system for matching queries that Dancer/Bailador uses for matching URLs 12:38
that sounds like the matching-thingy that Bailador has may want to be exposed as a module, and we can add something over our Net::IRC thingy to show that off
and I could rewrite a dinner bot in Perl 6 and thus use Perl 6 in production 12:39
vendethiel
.oO( Tonight, we dine in perl 6 ! )
 12:40
12:40 jnap joined
tadzik exactly 12:40
ah, but we'd need SSL and all
I'll do that in august then
FROGGS TLS!
colomon has been building DateTime::TimeZone on JVM for 34+ minutes now... 12:41
and it's done! 12:42
masak colomon: hitting memory limits?
colomon masak: … not of the machine, but maybe of JVM? But I'm assuming it's the effect of compiling so many small files. 12:43
12:43 grondilu left 12:44 jnap left
masak oh! 12:44
Woodi is a bit shocked hearing about introducing 'no strict' in v6... pragma "no my" going ? ;)
masak yes, that could very well be it.
Woodi: 'no my'? never heard of it. 12:45
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Woodi masak: just imagined it, low probability as I was told sometime before :) 12:45
masak Woodi: I'm not even sure what it is you're proposing. do you want to rename the 'no strict;' directive to 'no my;' ? 12:47
12:48 REPLeffect left
masak 'no strict;' has the advantage that it is what it says on the tin. you don't have to be strict anymore, so you don't have to use 'my'. you *can* if you want to. 12:48
'no my;' sounds like "you can't use 'my'". which is not what that directive does.
vendethiel WTB no p5 :) 12:49
Woodi but why allowing to drop 'my' ? what a reason ? 12:50
[Coke] I imagine 'no my' would be more strict no strict. 12:51
but it would probably be "no strict :my";
Woodi [Coke]: in my imagination it was like "my is allowed to be > /dev/nulled" :) 12:52
masak Woodi: just the other day someone requested the feature for one-liners.
Woodi oki 12:53
masak Woodi: it's just that in Perl 6 (and newer Perl 5s, I hear), the default is strict *on*, not strict *off*.
people can opt out of strictness if they feel it's in the way of them whipping something up.
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vendethiel `no undefined` 12:55
Woodi so how varibles will be located ? declared on first sight ?
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masak Woodi: you mean with an implicit 'my' declaration? no, I don't think that's gonna fly. 13:07
FROGGS Woodi: exactly
masak that would be very surprising in the case of `{ ... $x ... } ... $x` 13:08
FROGGS I think my hacky patch made them implicitly our scoped
masak our scope could work.
that's how Perl 5 does it.
but I seem to recall our scope is a bit more restrictive in Perl 6.
FROGGS here is the hack for anybody interested: gist.github.com/FROGGS/6f8989611659551dae1f 13:09
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masak FROGGS++ 13:12
spider-mario Rakudo Star appears to build more backends than asked for
I called Configure.pl with --backends=parrot but it still builds the MoarVM backend
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dalek ecs: 0b2e726 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S17-concurrency.pod:
Preliminary spec of Supply.classify
 13:18
FROGGS spider-mario: hummm... do you have nqp-m or moar in PATH by any chance? 13:21
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Woodi m: grammar G { token TOP { \w+ 'a' } }; say G.parse("kota"); 13:32
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
tadzik you need backtracking 13:33
Woodi why ?
tadzik because + is greedy
it eats the 'a' too
Woodi lol :)
FROGGS m: grammar G { token TOP { \w+? 'a' } }; say G.parse("kota");
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«｢kota｣␤␤»
Woodi stupid me
m: grammar G { token TOP { \w+ ':' } }; say G.parse("kota."); 13:34
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
Woodi m: grammar G { token TOP { \w+ '.' } }; say G.parse("kota.");
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«｢kota.｣␤␤»
timotimo alternatively you can also do +? to be non-greedy
13:42 ivanshmakov joined 13:43 FROGGS left 13:45 btyler joined, schogen joined 13:53 benabik joined, benabik left 13:55 kaleem left, anaeem1 joined 13:56 treehug88 joined 14:01 Ven joined 14:02 lichtkind joined, lichtkind_ joined
lichtkind may I ask why the JVM port of rakudo is released now? 14:04
masak m: grammar G { token TOP { \w+! 'a' } }; say G.parse("kota");
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«｢kota｣␤␤»
masak FROGGS, Woodi: greediness as such isn't the problem, but if you say 'token', then quantifiers (by default) don't backtrack. 14:05
colomon lichtkind: huh? 14:06
[Coke] lichtkind: do you mean "why do we have a JVM port?" 14:07
lichtkind colomon: rakudo.org/2014/05/05/announce-raku...e-2014-04/
[Coke] or "why did we release it in Rakudo Star?"
tadzik or "why now"? :) 14:08
lichtkind now i heard from jntht in kiev that it already had been so far
[Coke] that's the compiler.
lichtkind I saw little progress on that front so I ask if i have overlooked something
[Coke] ^^ that's Rakudo Star, the compiler+modules.
lichtkind sure
but why its included now
colomon "along with experimental support for the JVM backend (some module tests fail)."
[Coke] why not?
colomon probably easier to include it than exclude it, would be my guess. 14:09
[Coke] I don't understand the thrust of your question. can you elaborate?
lichtkind it could be included half a year ago
I skaed if there is a reason to do it now
[Coke] why did we wait so long, then?
Rakudo * was parrot only. adding all backends was easier than adding only one additional backend. 14:10
even if one of them doesn't quite run all the modules yet.
colomon while at the same time, adding other backends was a good bit of work
lichtkind yes ,i know
nwc10 JVM didn't support nativecall, hence a chunk of the Star modules didn't work
colomon so there was no good reason to add JVM before it was ready
nwc10 that was, I think, the bigger reason why no-one did the other code work
lichtkind ah so now nativecall works on jvm? 14:11
nwc10 lichtkind: I believe "mostly"
I don't know for sure
exactly how mostly
tadzik it passes the tests
works with bugs :)
I mean, I found one
and I sucessfully released two products that ran on JVM+NativeCall with no problems :)
masak \o/ 14:15
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timotimo hw much money you makin'? :) 14:16
tadzik nobody signed up for Steroids' Commercial Support yet :P 14:18
moritz tadzik: well, you could offer enterprise features, like LDAP/ActiveDirectory integration :-) 14:19
tadzik heheh
14:20 donaldh left
tadzik as soon as I can actually distribute these without asking people to install rakudo I may put something on Steam Greenlight, just to be the first one to have a Linux Exclusive in there :P 14:20
timotimo haha, ouch :) 14:21
tadzik it will probably have HW requirements simlar to Black Annex
timotimo that's the qbasic thing, right? 14:22
spider-mario camelia: tell FROGGS yes, I do have nqp-m in my PATH (actually, I even have perl6-m)
tadzik yeah
spider-mario (that’s how the bot works, right?)
tadzik it requires a mouse, a VGA graphics card and a 2GHz+ CPU
moritz spider-mario: no, camelia only evals code
spider-mario oh, ok 14:23
moritz .tell spider-mario maybe like this
yoleaux moritz: I'll pass your message to spider-mario.
timotimo m: sleep 3600; say "froggs, here's a message for you"
tadzik :D
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
moritz timotimo++ # but you need to do that asynchronously :-)
spider-mario thanks. :)
yoleaux 14:23Z <moritz> spider-mario: maybe like this
timotimo m: Promise.in(3600).then({ say "hi" }) 14:24
camelia ( no output )
timotimo not quite.
tadzik just wait an hour...
spider-mario .tell FROGGS yes, I do have nqp-m in my PATH (actually, I even have perl6-m)
yoleaux spider-mario: I'll pass your message to FROGGS.
14:24 donaldh joined
tadzik FROGGS++ # handling panda things 14:25
masak is there a way to say "if there are any promises that haven't triggered yet, wait for them" ? 14:26
tadzik await {} ?
ah, but like, globally
moritz masak: considering that not all promises are tied to concurrent execution somehow, that could be a very bad idea, IMHO 14:28
timotimo so you essentially want a non-app-lifetime-thread to handle your stuff?
tadzik what if you waited for them in a different thread? :o
JimmyZ m: Promise.in(60).then({say "hello"})
camelia ( no output )
moritz m: Promise.in(2).then({say "hello"}) 14:29
camelia ( no output )
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moritz m: Promise.in(2).then({say "hello"}).result 14:30
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«hello␤»
JimmyZ m: Promise.in(60).then({say "hello"}).result
spider-mario wow, the startup time of Rakudo on Parrot is way better than it used to be
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camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«(timeout)» 14:30
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timotimo may very well be 14:32
JimmyZ looks like it eats my cpu by above code
schogen p6: $*SCHEDULER.cue: :every(2), {say "hello"}
masak moritz: yes, you are right.
timotimo we've got lexical variables transformed into locals and blocks merged into each other, i'm sure that'll improve startpu time a little, too
camelia ( no output )
..rakudo-jvm ebca0e: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method cue in type Any␤ at /tmp/tmpfile line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4595 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4596 (module-CORE @ 576) ␤ a…»
..rakudo-parrot ebca0e: OUTPUT«Dynamic variable $*SCHEDULER not found␤ in method <anon> at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:12682␤ in any at gen/parrot/Metamodel.nqp:2710␤ in any find_method_fallback at gen/parrot/Metamodel.nqp:2698␤ in any find_method at gen/parrot/Metamodel.nqp:…»
masak moritz: next question: if I have a promise that I want to wait for, how do I do that?
oh, that's await {}, got it. :) 14:33
m: await Promise.in(6).then({ say "hi" })
timotimo yeah, await or .result
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«hi␤»
masak \o/
m: await Promise.in(60).then({ say "(timeout)" }) 14:34
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
masak \o/
timotimo oh you troll :)
masak that may be, but look how *fast* it responded!
though I notice that the final newline is somehow missing... 14:35
timotimo well, that's weird
masak no, it *isn't*. you already correctly identified me as a troll. 14:36
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timotimo is the timeout on camelia only ~15 seconds? 14:37
masak m: say "(no output)"
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«(no output)␤»
masak m: print "(no output)"
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«(no output)»
masak m: print "OUTPUT«(no output)»" 14:38
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«OUTPUT«(no output)»»
moritz masak: or, .result, as I used above
masak right.
moritz feels pretty helpless in front of a p5 function with 2k lines that needs to be refactored 14:40
Ven a 2k lines function ? Really
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timotimo hopefully there are at least a hundred lines of comments in there. 14:41
FROGGS well, it could be worse, really 14:43
yoleaux 14:24Z <spider-mario> FROGGS: yes, I do have nqp-m in my PATH (actually, I even have perl6-m)
FROGGS spider-mario: hmmm, okay, that might trigger it... I'll look into it when I have time
timotimo spider-mario: have you seen the startup times of moarvm yet? :)
spider-mario yes, it’s pretty good. :) 14:44
but it seems parrot is on par now
(pun not intended)
(but still appreciated)
moritz Ven: yes, hysterically grown 14:45
timotimo oh, wow. it is?
i need to check that out mysel
myself
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timotimo something seems wrong with my local perl6-p 14:46
it's taking way longer than it should to compile the setting
oh ... well it isn't infinilooping at least
spider-mario oh wait, perl6 is actually perl6-m 14:47
my bad
(I did find it strange…)
FROGGS :o)
timotimo oh, all right
FROGGS perl6-p's startup time is usually twice as long as perl6-m's
spider-mario perl6-p is about twice as slow as perl6-m
FROGGS yeah 14:48
timotimo hmm. we're above 100megabytes of maxrss for a simple "say 1" on moarvm
i'm guessing that's due to the new classes and functions in the setting
still way below 1/2 the memory usage of perl6-p 14:49
FROGGS .oO( and what if you "say 2"? O.o )
timotimo and perl6-p takes about half as much memory as perl6-j does to start up
but perl6-j splits its 10 seconds across two cores, so it only takes 5.6s wallclock time 14:50
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Woodi for my little file parsing script r-m is 38x slower then perl5 version of that script... what rakudo do on startup ? 14:51
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[Coke] Try loading moose, and bigints, and... 14:52
Woodi 1.45 vs 0.038...
then do not load this stuff...
grondilu I feel I've already asked that, but is it a good idea to rely on .keys and .values to return in reciprocally consistent order?
FROGGS grondilu: no 14:53
PerlJam grondilu: maybe you want to use .kv ?
Woodi grondilu: yes, but only for small keys set ;)
[Coke] Woodi: to not load it, you'd have to not use it in the setting... and I'm pretty sure the OO stuff is baked in pretty deep.
grondilu maybe it's better to tell you what I want to do. I have a hash whose keys are real numbers and values are lists of real numbers. I want to see whether if for all key-values pairs, the key is the mean of the values. 14:54
Woodi then MooV6.c maybe ?
PerlJam grondilu: won't you have issues with floating point precision? 14:55
grondilu PerlJam: I don't want to worry about that yet 14:56
FROGGS Woodi: that is like telling P5 to not use SV's
Woodi: but yeah, P6 needs to get faster (and it will get a lot faster)
grondilu maybe something like [and] map { .key == .values R/ [+] .values }, %h.paris
*pairs
timotimo grondilu: it wouldn't seem like you'd have to rely on the order of .keys and .values; though you really would want .pairs or .kv
FROGGS .oO( We always have Paris )
retupmoca m: my %h = (2 => [1,2,3]); for %h.kv -> $mean, @vals { if $mean == ([+] @vals) / +@vals { say 'yay!'} } 14:57
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«yay!␤»
14:58 shevy left
timotimo i'd suggest { say "you're all so mean!" } instead 14:58
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timotimo hm. wasn't there recently some effort to replace the strings in O( ... ) with proper hashes? 14:59
Woodi can we have two kinds of objects ? a) just rich struct; and b) fully MOPped...
masak grondilu: (a) I think you *can* rely on it, but (b) whether it's a good idea to do so is a different question. I would consider it a code smell, I think. 15:00
timotimo Woodi: whether or not your code relies on OOP, almost everything in the setting does 15:01
getting rid of OOP from the setting seems like a bad idea; i'd rather go for different things that aren't always used
FROGGS timotimo: yes, arnsholt++ did that, but there are issues in rakudo so it is still in a branch
timotimo FROGGS: ah, okay. sad to hear it
moritz also, the compiler itself uses the MOP :-)
FROGGS timotimo: well, you can fix the issues :o) 15:02
PerlJam grondilu: [and] map { $^k == @^v R/ [+] @^v }, %h.kv # if you want to go that route.
timotimo Woodi: for example, not all scripts use Bag or Mix, Promises or Channels, Instant, Buf, that kind of stuff
FROGGS: will i immediately see what's wrong when i check out the branch and try to compile it? 15:03
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PerlJam grondilu: you could also use a junction 15:03
FROGGS Woodi: this won't work out... when you declare a custon infix, the grammar gets inherited and augmented... there are so many things that need the mop
timotimo: I think so
timotimo: also, he added comments to the issue he made I think
timotimo moritz: there's still a very old branch in rakudo from you that aimed to allow the user to subclass nqp classes; are you interested in reviving that any time soon? 15:04
moritz timotimo: no 15:05
timotimo did the use-case disappear? 15:06
FROGGS hmmm, there is a use case
slangs that use P6 grammars but build QAST
timotimo aye. 15:07
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moritz timotimo: no, my motivation :-) 15:07
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timotimo motivation's kinda low for me at the moment as well; though i'm itching to make something happen ... :\ 15:08
tadzik ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ pls gamepads 15:09
actually, I just wanted to use that image :P
FROGGS how can you not be motivated when rakudo gets moar awesome day by day??
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moritz FROGGS: oh, I'm very motivated watching you and @others making it awesome :-) 15:11
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FROGGS bah 15:11
:P
15:12 bjz left
lee_ am i misunderstanding how to turn an array into a list? i wanted to try something like [and] @array.list 15:12
gist.github.com/leedo/5b90563535cd6dd3d295
masak m: my @array = True, True, True; say [&&] @array 15:13
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«True␤»
masak m: my @array = True, False, True; say [&&] @array
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«False␤»
masak lee_: worksforme.
moritz lee_: it's an array of arrays
lee_ oh, derp. i see what i did
moritz lee_: you you need @a[0].list
15:14 ajr_ left
moritz or omit those [ ] while assigning :-) 15:14
lee_ yep, used my @a = [ ... ]
PerlJam you could have said @a := [ ... ]
Ven m: my @array = True, False, True; say all(@array)
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«all(True, False, True)␤»
Ven m: my @array = True, False, True; say ?all(@array)
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«False␤»
grondilu kinf of related: does the order of .keys is supposed to be consistent with the order of .pairs? 15:15
(omg my english was terrible here) 15:16
I mean: is the order of .keys supposed to be...
PerlJam I dunno the answer, but I think if you care about keeping the order of keys and values in sync, then you should ask for them together.
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grondilu yeah but it just does not seem convenient to do so 15:17
moritz grondilu: I'm pretty sure that .keys and .values are supposed to be in sync
(as long as you don't modify the hash inbetween) 15:18
not sure about any other pair of methods
masak grondilu: what PerlJam said. basically what I felt with the last question.
moritz (at least that's the p5 approach)
masak right.
it's one of those "you can depend on this... but try not to" situations.
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masak anything that *depends* on hash order, no matter how innocently, is asking for the future to come and break it. 15:19
moritz if you ask for .kv and .pairs, you already have keys *and* values, so I don't see much reason for external consistencies as well
15:19 igorsutton joined 15:20 spider-mario left
skids masak: As far as that 0x1023456789abcdef bug, I'd say the 1s-complement problem with libtomath is at the root of most such problems; it's almost not worth filing separate bug reports until RT#115966 is fixed. IIRC FROGGS++ tried to appply the fix in the gist there but there was bitrot in the meantime. 15:21
synopsebot Link: rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Displa...?id=115966
moritz skids: but how is a positive number affected by 1s complement?
FROGGS skids: that covers what I remember, aye 15:22
skids Who knows how that is being optimized.
15:23 igorsutton left
masak skids: ok, merging into RT#115966 15:28
synopsebot Link: rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Displa...?id=115966
15:32 plobsing left
skids If I get some tuits I'll try to refresh the proposed fix, but I haven't trained up on properly smoking things, so I'll need some help there. 15:34
FROGGS skids: you shall get your help :o)
grondilu Well, I wrote rosettacode.org/wiki/K-means%2B%2B_...ing#Perl_6 but that may be the least elegant Perl 6 code I've ever written in RC. This algorithm is tough to write without making it tedious, though. 15:35
PerlJam why the ++ on operator? 15:38
grondilu just to match the name of the algorithm.
it's a bit annoying that Complex numbers are not made of Rat but floating points. 15:41
r: say .reals».WHAT given 1 + 1i 15:42
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} ebca0e: OUTPUT«(Parcel)␤»
grondilu r: say .reals[0].WHAT given 1 + 1i
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} ebca0e: OUTPUT«(Num)␤»
grondilu I kind of would have expected (Int) here :/ 15:43
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grondilu r: say .re.WHAT given 1 + 1i 15:44
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} ebca0e: OUTPUT«(Num)␤»
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tadzik masak: not sure if it was you I told all about "little tails" in polish, but actually "ogonek" is the formal name for this, even in english: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogonek 15:58
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PerlJam tadzik: what's the little appendange called for consonants like Ç ? 16:25
oh, just cedilla (I've always associated that word with just Ç) 16:26
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geekosaur and then there's comma which is sometimes replaced with cedilla out of confusion or because it's easier in some typography implementation 16:29
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tadzik PerlJam: oh, that I don't know 17:07
polish only has things in Ą and Ć
huf and l 17:10
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tadzik oh, Ł yes 17:13
and Ż 17:14
that's it I think :
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Rotwang did you know that there are no square nor curly braces on the finnish keyboard? 17:15
TimToady that's looks like 之 to me :)
next you'll be telling me John McCarthy was Finnish... 17:16
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Woodi can we have PerlScript ? ;) 18:03
TimToady m: say Complex(42).re.WHAT 18:06
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«(Num)␤»
TimToady I'd call that a bug; the specs consistently talk about Real components, not Num components 18:07
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TimToady lizmat: :auth and :ver are just about identity to my mind, and pragmas have just as much identity as any other module, even if most of 'em come standard; as for other semantic differences, I see none; all modules mutate the current language upon import, including pragmas, with no sane place to draw a boundary. 18:10
FROGGS TimToady: and the opposite of 'use foo' is still 'no foo'? 18:12
TimToady well, I suppose we could have don't-use nowadays :) 18:13
but I'm fine with keeping no
FROGGS :o)
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TimToady re Complex, if you really want floaters, that's what complex is for 18:13
FROGGS I think we need an opposite of &EXPORT btw
TimToady well, we certainly need ways of undoing things that are undoable
FROGGS so 'no foo <blarg>' does call another sub
TimToady whether the current EXPORT mechanism is up to the task, I've never thought about 18:14
FROGGS IIRC I do `$*SCOPE eq 'use'` in v5, but that is not the best way either 18:15
TimToady it's certainly not quite ready to export new slangs or to export modifications of the current slangs 18:16
FROGGS the entire use/no warnings in v5 is a huge hack
TimToady well, sure, because use is file-scoped by default in P5
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TimToady that's one of the main reasons we changed everything to lexical scoped in P6 18:17
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FROGGS m: { use lib 'foo' }; say @*INC # :/ 18:18
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«foo /home/p6eval/.perl6/2014.04-193-gebca0e8/lib /home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-1/languages/perl6/site/lib /home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-1/languages/perl6/vendor/lib /home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-1/languages/perl6/lib␤»
TimToady it actually made much less sense in P5 to combine pragmas with modules, but it made enough sense even there
18:18 telex left
TimToady but 'use lib' is simply mis-implemented right now in P6 18:19
FROGGS right
TimToady there's no reason to have things that are special file scope when the outermost lexical scope is file scope, and we want to encourage file scoped things to be declared at the front anyway, not hidden down in a block somewhere 18:20
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FROGGS yeah, and my bet is that not a single thing breaks when we fix 'use lib' 18:21
TimToady there are a few things relating to identity that are truly file-scoped, but 'use lib' does not appear to be one of them, from the user's perspective anyway 18:22
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moritz agrees 18:23
18:23 ivanshmakov joined
moritz a pragma that indicates the character encoding of a file might be file scoped 18:23
FROGGS like the magic comment in Python? 18:24
TimToady technically it wouldn't have to be file-scoped, but that's a spot where we can afford to be draconian :)
since most text editors can't deal with mixed encodings in a single file 18:25
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TimToady but many binary file types support "mixed encodings" all the time internally, for some definition of encoding 18:27
it's very nearly almost the definition of "binary"
linguistically speaking, it's funny that we settle on "binary" to describe that, but I guess it's sort of a lowest-common whatsy 18:29
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FROGGS :o) 18:31
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masak tadzik: I think we discussed "little tails" and "ogonek" at some point. either way, I'm familiar with the concept of "ogonek", and I would know what it meant if someone said it :) 18:39
TimToady: I had never made the connection between Ż and 之 before -- now I can't un-see it :P 18:40
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jnthn evening, #perl6 18:44
TimToady o/
jnthn is on his way home from this week's teaching ) 18:45
FROGGS hi jnthn
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masak jnthn: hi ))))))) 18:50
FROGGS jnthn was in russia?
jnthn Nyet, just Oerebro :) 18:51
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btyler_ or masak fell into a vkontakte comment thread and didn't manage to wash off all the smailiki 18:52
jnthn Smailiki are cute. Why wash them off? :P 18:54
.oO( or should that just be P... )
 18:55
raydiak good almostnoon, #perl6 18:57
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jnthn o/ raydiak 18:57
FROGGS hi raydiak 18:58
timotimo oh hey raydiak
raydiak \o jnthn, FROGGS & timotimo
timotimo raydiak: can you add a "run time: $n seconds" to the popups of perl6-bench? :)
raydiak doesn't sound too hard, does it? 18:59
FROGGS jnthn: do you have a sec to talk about UnwindExceptions and friends?
19:00 grep0r left
masak hehe, "smailiki" :) 19:00
jnthn FROGGS: Well, I don't watch friends, but I know about UnwindException...kinda. 19:01
FROGGS k
that should suffice :o)
- for loops like while we have unwind exceptions handlers for next/redo/last
- this is not what I want for `next LABEL`, because these UnwindExceptions do not have a payload attr 19:02
- so I'd need handlers for VMExceptions I think
- there was another dynamic variable like @*REGISTER_UNWING_HANDLERS, is this the right one for VMExceptions? 19:03
jnthn hm
masak .oO( jnthn only watches druzya ) :P
FROGGS - can I mix UnwindException handlers and handlers for VMExceptions in the same while loop code gen?
jnthn Well, the "normal" exceptions actually use UnwindException too 19:04
FROGGS - it was @*REGISTER_BLOCK_HANDLER or so
ahh, yeah, you said that already
I just don't see how that can be true 19:05
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FROGGS because I throw via newexception, and in the while loop (due to such a unwind handler), I only have an UnwindException on the stack 19:06
so I dunno how to get the information I need - the payload
jnthn Remember that normal exception handlers run on the stack top 19:07
And *then* unwind
So the whole payload business is all over by the time we unwind.
FROGGS aha
jnthn Any change you can stuff it in the result slot of the unwind exception for this case?
FROGGS hmmm
interesting Idea... 19:08
I'll try
thanks ))
jnthn pzh )
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colomon wow, there are 30+ modules that work in parrot and fail in JVM. 19:10
including ABC? :(
vendethiel
.oO( it should be as simple as ABC to get p6-jvm working ... )
 19:12
raiph grondilu++ # rosetta contributions in general, "K-means++ clustering" in particular
timotimo oh, you're smoking all three backends now?
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colomon timotimo: just got my first complete smoke of JVM 19:12
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colomon moar still fails horribly 19:13
timotimo oh my :(
jnthn colomon: How so? It passes all the Star modules...
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jnthn So I don't imaigne the module smoke can be *that* bad... 19:13
lizmat TimToady: message received
colomon jnthn: it's worse
jnthn colomon: Odd. 19:14
colomon jnthn: wait
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colomon jnthn: when it tries to install File::Find, it works, but somehow installing it while running it corrupts both the current executable running and the compiled version of File::Find stored on my hard drive. 19:15
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jnthn um...huh? 19:15
colomon jnthn: so it not only kills the smoker in mid-run, it kill's panda ability to run until you rebootstrap 19:16
jnthn: it's been doing this for at least a month now.
dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 52 commits to rakudo/loop_labels_test by FROGGS
colomon jnthn: I'm only guessing proximately about what's causing it to die, but I can tell you for sure that panda install File::Find breaks panda 19:17
jnthn ah, that sounds like a more easily huntable one.
colomon I'm rebuilding moar at the moment, when I'm done I'll post a gist of how to duplicate the issue 19:18
jnthn colomon++
colomon assuming you're in the mood for hunting
jnthn Well, may be too tired today, but good to have it, as I have more tuits in the next days. 19:19
raydiak timotimo: I remember the tooltip sticks, will see if I can smooth that out too...any other smallish ideas for when I get to p6bench today?
timotimo raydiak: i'm afraid no :( 19:23
but if you want to write actual benchmarks....? ;)
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raydiak timotimo: good thought...we'll see how inspired I feel after the other things :) 19:26
colomon jnthn: gist.github.com/colomon/f181213518aeb5cdacd0 # lines 22 on are key, rest provided for context and for duplicating
jnthn: key showing the bug, I mean 19:27
jnthn uh, wtf...
wow
FROGGS jnthn: I need to ask again: do you meant that I should throw an unwindexception, or shall I try later to put the payloap of the vmex into the result attribute? 19:35
colomon: and you get that identical error for a month now? with the same error message?
jnthn FROGGS: hmmmm
FROGGS: I'm just looking at nqp::control in QAST::Compiler::JAST 19:36
colomon FROGGS: well, the exact number of the opcode might be different. but yes, that message, for sure.
jnthn It appears it does
$il.append(savesite(JAST::Instruction.new( :op('invokestatic'), $TYPE_OPS,
FROGGS because in rakudo I'd like to throw normal exceptions... and use setpayload etc
jnthn 'throwcatdyn_c', 'Void', 'Long', $TYPE_TC )));
That is, it's already doing a fairly normal throw
FROGGS colomon: k, thanks 19:37
jnthn: okay...
jnthn It just doens't throw an exception object, but only a category
FROGGS right
jnthn: my code throws an object though
jnthn public static void throwcatdyn_c(long category, ThreadContext tc) {
ExceptionHandling.handlerDynamic(tc, category, false, null);
}
colomon FROGGS: the number has changed: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-03-01#i_8368338
jnthn OK, but point is this seems to be going kinda through the normal exception system
colomon FROGGS: and I guess it's two months, not one. 19:38
FROGGS jnthn: yes, that is what I discovered also
jnthn So I guess the diference is in the kind of handler
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jnthn EX_UNWIND_SIMPLE vs others 19:39
FROGGS I'd guess that there is a code that take the VMEx, turns it into an UnwindException and runs the @*REGISTER_UNWIND_HANDLERs 19:40
so if I could put my hands on that bit :o)
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jnthn I see that REGISTER_UNWIND_HANDLER takes a :$ex_obj that means "I'd like to receive the exception object" 19:41
FROGGS but okay, I am going to try to follow the exception's path to the handler
hmmm
cool
jnthn Nothing actualy uses it at present, though.
FROGGS okay, thank you so far :o) 19:42
err, o)) even
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dalek ast: e4e3206 | (David Warring [email@hidden.address] | integration/advent2010-day03.t:
adding 2010 advent day 3
 20:13
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masak 'night, #perl6 20:26
FROGGS gnight masak 20:31
jnthn: how do I can a smo to a vmex? is that this weird syntax? "[$TYPE_OBJ" 20:38
s/can/cast/
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jnthn No 20:39
That means "array of"
FROGGS ahh
jnthn checkcast instruction or something like that
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jnthn If you mean in bytecode 20:39
FROGGS ohh, make sense
checkcast... okay
jnthn Typically we put something in Ops.java or so and call it and have it do the work, though. 20:40
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FROGGS I see 20:40
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TimToady colomon: did you notice that Complex is acting like (Num,Num) rather than (Real,Real)? 20:52
colomon TimToady: not sure the context, but I believe that's standard (if not spec) now
for performance reasons. 20:53
colomon is not totally happy about this, but Complexes without performance are relatively useless...
TimToady complex should be used if you want performance
Complex should perhaps be a bit more abstract 20:54
FROGGS m: say complex
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/q9z4QVzEwu␤Undeclared routine:␤ complex used at line 1␤␤»
colomon huh. I like that idea, but don't know what you'd do with i
TimToady well, it's not a new idea; complex as a native type is kind of all over S02 and S09, which kinda implies that Complex is something else 20:57
anyway, kinda seems like it was in your bailiwick :)
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colomon :) 21:04
wonder how easy it would be to implement complex by just cut-n-pasting Complex? ;)
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FROGGS colomon: sure, copy it over, then fix Complex to use Real, and perhaps complex to use num? (I dunno the spec though) 21:05
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dalek ecs: 806f1cc | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S17-concurrency.pod:
Spec Supply.classify slightly differently

It now more's a Pair with key value / Supply, so that the receiver of the more has a little more information as to what to do with that Supply.		 21:09
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dalek ast: 65fbf45 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S17-supply/classify.t:
Add tests for Supply.classify
 21:13
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dalek kudo/nom: 6e359ab | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Supply (2 files):
Implement Supply.classify
 21:22
kudo/nom: 173a1f0 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Supply.pm:
Fix playing paused values once a tap is made
kudo/nom: bd518ab | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | t/spectest.data:
Test Supply.classify and advent2010-03
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jnthn lizmat: +1 to pair for classify 21:31
lizmat: I really don't think the "paused" thing in Supply itself can live, so please don't stack too much up on top of it. 21:32
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lizmat well, without it Supply.classify doesn't make much sense :-( 21:33
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lizmat and we have race conditions in e.g. crappy useragent 21:33
I'm not sure of Subjects would help with this
timotimo still doesn't know what Subjects are 21:35
jnthn lizmat: I'm not saying we don't need a solution, I'm saying that I doubt "paused" is the right one. 21:36
lizmat well, it's only called "paused" internally now 21:39
it's just making sure that any "more"s done on a live Supply will be seen by the *first* tap
(and only the first tap)
jnthn Well, in the case of read_chars, the problem is that it even is a live supply 21:40
lizmat that's what I said: a live supply :-) 21:42
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jnthn yes, I know, but it probably shouldn't be one, since we want to be able to stop receiving 21:43
lizmat but a second tap on that supply would not be guaranteed to see the whole thing, would it ?
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jnthn Right. If you really want that, then I think it needs to be made explicit. 21:45
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jnthn With a .publish equivalent. 21:45
At present we have no way of doing live -> demand (.replay(...) being an example) and demand -> live (.publish being an example)
lizmat so, let me get this straight: .publish would be a method on a live Supply, that would a live supply an on demand one? 21:47
*make
jnthn No, it'd be a method on a demand supply a live one, but it avoids races by letting you have a change to do any setup work 21:50
In Rx it works by having a connectable observable
Essentially the pattern is:
my $pub-supply = $some-demand-supply.publish;
$pub-supply.tap(...);
$pub-supply.connect; # Actually does the tap of $some-demand-supply 21:51
Not attached to the naming.
tadzik .tap.tap.tap.penny.tap.tap.tap.penny
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lizmat ah 21:56
hmmm...
doesn't that really come down to $pub-supply doing buffering ? 21:58
jnthn No, it's just don't tap the underlying thing until the setup is done 21:59
So you don't "start" it
lizmat but in the crappy useragent example, there's no way not to start it 22:00
or the $socket object needs to be buffering ?
I mean, you send the request to the remote server 22:02
and it will start coming back at ya, possibly before you have the supply even
jnthn lizmat: Yes because IO::Socket::Async.read_chars is not done yet! 22:07
lizmat hehe ok
jnthn lizmat: When it is, it'll return a demand supply that starts the reading when you tap it and stops when you close the tap.
lizmat: I just didn't want to re-create that infrastructure in a bunch of places, and we have no equivalent to Rx's Observable.Create yet. 22:08
lizmat and any second tap would be guaranteed to get the same more's ?
jnthn lizmat: No, a second tap on that is probably a really bad idea...potentially an exception. 22:09
lizmat so we have a third type of supply: on demand (repeatable), live (see what you get) and once (you only will get all)
jnthn The first and third are the same, though. 22:10
I mean, interval is "only you will get"
.for is "only you will get"
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lizmat but but, on demand you can have as many taps as you want 22:10
and each will get the same, no? 22:11
jnthn r: my $iv = Supply.interval(1); $iv.tap({ say 1 }); sleep 0.5; $iv.tap({ say 2 });
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«1␤»
..rakudo-jvm ebca0e: OUTPUT«1␤2␤»
..rakudo-parrot ebca0e: OUTPUT«None of the parametric role variants for 'Supply' matched the arguments supplied.␤Cannot call ''; none of these signatures match:␤ in any specialize at gen/parrot/Metamodel.nqp:2262␤ in any compose at gen/parrot/Metamodel.nqp:2560␤ in any make…»
jnthn m: my $iv = Supply.interval(1); $iv.tap({ say 1 }); sleep 0.5; $iv.tap({ say 2 }); sleep 5;
camelia rakudo-moar ebca0e: OUTPUT«1␤2␤1␤2␤1␤2␤1␤2␤1␤2␤1␤2␤»
hoelzro timotimo: are you around?
jnthn lizmat: Each .tap on a demand supply creates a new timer here. 22:12
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lizmat true, but the sequence for all is the same 22:12
jnthn In this particular case, yes.
lizmat same for "for" 22:13
jnthn Right. The point of .create is for cases where it's not the same.
For example, in the twitter stream example
Where you want to observe different topics.
It's a demand supply 'cus you want to be able to establish a connection at the point of tapping, and disconnect later on when that topic is no longer interesting. 22:14
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jnthn But clearly, Twitter.live_feed('bieber') and Twitter.live_feed('goodmusic') are two very differrent sets of data. 22:15
timotimo hoelzro: i'm here
hoelzro: just distracted a bit ... watching Warehouse 13 22:16
hoelzro timotimo: I was wondering if you knew if Python had an equivalent to classify
timotimo surprisingly excellent show
hold on, i can try to find out
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hoelzro I asked on #python, but no luck =/ 22:16
timotimo aye 22:17
try this: docs.python.org/2/library/itertool...ls.groupby
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lizmat jnthn: the twitter example feels like a live feed (unrepeatble) with a .grep on it 22:17
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hoelzro ah ha 22:17
lizmat they are different sets of data, yet they're both live
hoelzro thanks timotimo
timotimo i'm not sure how close it comes 22:18
hoelzro well, it's pretty close
lizmat jnthn: but anyway, going to take in what you said
and sleep on it a bit
jnthn lizmat: In reality you can't actually do it that way (even if it'd be cute)
lizmat: 'cus then you'd be receiving every single tweet over the network and discarding almost all of them. 22:19
hoelzro the data need to be sorted? boooo
lizmat jnthn: if the selection part is actually part of the URL, then I would consider them completely separate supplies anyway
dalek ast: d269628 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S17-supply/classify.t:
Also test Supply.classify(%mapper)
 22:20
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lizmat gnight, #perl6! 22:23
jnthn 'night, lizmat
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BenGoldberg m: my $iv = Supply.interval(1); $iv.tap({ say @_ }); sleep 5; 23:02
camelia rakudo-moar bd518a: OUTPUT«0␤1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤»
BenGoldberg m: my $iv = Supply.interval(1); $iv.tap({ say 'a:', @_ }); sleep .5; $iv.tap({ say 'b:', @_ }); sleep 5;
camelia rakudo-moar bd518a: OUTPUT«a:0␤b:0␤a:1␤b:1␤a:2␤b:2␤a:3␤b:3␤a:4␤b:4␤a:5␤b:»
BenGoldberg m: my $iv = Supply.interval(1); $iv.tap({ say 'a:', @_ }); sleep 2.5; $iv.tap({ say 'b:', @_ }); sleep 2.6; 23:03
camelia rakudo-moar bd518a: OUTPUT«a:0␤a:1␤a:2␤b:0␤a:3␤b:1␤a:4␤b:2␤a:5␤»
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skids gist.github.com/skids/618713daedac57e8ca67 23:59

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