»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 25 June 2013.
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lue on latest perl6-m, the test for panda all say "No subtests run" 02:25
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TimToady p6: say (1, 2, 3, 4) ~~ 3..10; say (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) ~~ 1..4; 04:28
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camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} b8567c: OUTPUT«False␤True␤» 04:29
..niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«False␤False␤»
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TimToady I think those should be True False 04:29
numeric range on the right should be testing range against +LHS 04:30
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TimToady I guess there's a bit more dwimmery in the table than that, hmm... 04:32
Any Range in generic range [!after] X.min,$_,X.max (etc.) 04:33
not sure I buy that, looks like a refugee from symmetrical smartmatch 04:34
oh, it's X.min, which is the range min, not the array min 04:36
in fact, by that rule it would fail, since integers are not commensurate with parcels
but I'd argue that a numeric range should coerce the left to numeric
m: say (1,2,3,4,5) cmp 42 04:37
camelia rakudo-moar b8567c: OUTPUT«Less␤»
TimToady m: say (1,2,3,4,5) cmp 4
camelia rakudo-moar b8567c: OUTPUT«Less␤»
TimToady hmm, looks like it's doing element-by-element comparison, treating the right as a single element 04:38
m: say (1,2,3,4,5) ~~ 5
camelia rakudo-moar b8567c: OUTPUT«True␤»
TimToady m: say (1,2,3,4,5) ~~ 5..5
camelia rakudo-moar b8567c: OUTPUT«False␤»
TimToady that seems completely bogus to me 04:39
m: say +(1,2,3,4,5) ~~ 5..5 04:43
camelia rakudo-moar b8567c: OUTPUT«True␤»
TimToady that's the semantics it oughta have 04:44
not turn the right side into a list 04:45
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dalek ecs: 6672de4 | TimToady++ | S03-operators.pod:
range smartmatch coerces when real or stringy
 05:48
TimToady see also S03:3500 05:49
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S03.html#line_3500
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sergot morning o/ 06:36
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jnthn morning o/ 06:52
FROGGS morning
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FROGGS m: say $*OS 08:24
camelia rakudo-moar b8567c: OUTPUT«linux␤Saw 1 call to deprecated code during execution.␤================================================================================␤$*OS called at:␤ /tmp/QDDWMAQIHr, line 1␤Please use $*DISTRO.OS instead.␤-----------------------------------…»
FROGGS m: say $*DISTRO.OS
camelia rakudo-moar b8567c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Dynamic variable $*DISTRO not found␤»
FROGGS .tell lizmat does it make sense to point somebody from $*OS to $*DISTRO.OS when we do not yet have $*DISTRO?
yoleaux FROGGS: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
lizmat good *, #perl 6 08:25
yoleaux 08:24Z <FROGGS> lizmat: does it make sense to point somebody from $*OS to $*DISTRO.OS when we do not yet have $*DISTRO?
FROGGS morning lizmat :o)
lizmat wel, maybe not :-)
it was more a proof of concept of deprecation of a *variable* rather than a sub or method
FROGGS we should at least wire $*DISTRO.OS up soonish 08:26
lizmat yes, that was my plan for today
FROGGS lizmat++ 08:27
my plan for today is a very nice one
can't wait for $dayjob being done
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lizmat FROGGS++ # as a measure of support 08:32
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timotimo p6weekly.wordpress.com/?p=160&s...0947573439 - feel free to point out anything i have missed 09:29
FROGGS: since last week, how much did loop-labels move forward? 09:30
nwc10 timotimo: Linux or linux? :-) 09:31
timotimo i think i'll just remove mention of linux from there
because ... what other operating system runs on those architectures anyway? :P
nwc10 timotimo: you could say "tested on Linux" 09:32
timotimo that being said, i wonder if we can run on haiku and beos
nwc10 I think that that would be helpful and accudate
accurate
like I can type
timotimo i mention it once at the end now
instead of three times
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nwc10 better than my suggestion 09:32
lizmat timotimo: maybe mention dwarring adding more tests from advent posts ? 09:33
timotimo ah, of course!
lizmat I also fixed filtering of array/hash slices 09:36
non-existing keys would return an empty list, instead of nothing
timotimo ah, right
FROGGS timotimo: AFAICS perl6-p passes its tests, perl6-m and perl6-j need a little adjusted (right now I store the Label's mem address, which is bogus when the Label moves in GC)
timotimo ah 09:37
yes, that's not a good idea there :)
FROGGS so I need to keep the label object itself, but that should be pretty easy
timotimo aye
after that everything should work fine? :D
FROGGS MONDAY: I expect that we have labels merged until next MONDAY 09:38
yes, I need to put in more tests though :o)
cpan will also get a lot of attention this week, I hope that I have the PR about the indexer ready until PLPW 09:39
so, weekend
timotimo ah, plpw is this weekend
i should probably point that out
FROGGS yeah
lizmat timotimo: and the CZPW is two days *after* PLPW 09:40
also the *first* CZPW
timotimo oh, nice 09:41
there'll be perl6 stuff on czpw, too?
lizmat jnthn, lichtkind and lizmat will be giving presentations, afaik
timotimo ah, nice 09:42
who's going to present at the plpw except tadzik?
FROGGS timotimo: act.yapc.eu/plpw2014/schedule
timotimo++ # great blög
lizmat and masak
at PLPW: FROGGS, masak, jnthn, lizmat, woolfy 09:44
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timotimo found the right links to look at 09:46
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timotimo p6weekly.wordpress.com/?p=160&s...098b18ceae - new draft 09:47
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nwc10 timotimo: s/monday/Monday/ 09:49
lizmat did we add brrt-to-the-future.blogspot.de already to sixplanet ? 09:50
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sergot timotimo: tadzik will give a talk during plpw too :) 10:06
tadzik yep, but the question was "except tadzik" :P
sergot oh, right, why so? :) 10:08
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tadzik I assume timo knew about me already :P 10:09
but I don't seem to be included in the blogpost
sergot that's why I wrote about you :P
tadzik :) 10:10
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sergot lizmat: regarding to our Friday hackathon, can we invite some "new" people? 10:28
lizmat depends on what they expect 10:29
if they expect to be helped with installing Perl 6
not so much, if they already have Perl 6 installed, and have tried to write code already 10:30
I think more so :-)
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sergot ok, great :) 10:30
lizmat the Perl 6 hackathon in Kiev sort of went awry in the sense that there were too many newbies 10:31
maybe we need a separate "upgrade to Perl 6" event in the future
raiph++ moritz++ for not giving up on perlmonk 10:32
s
apejens trying to install rakudo-star via homebrew failed: gist.github.com/omega/a2362e8e9156d3c17dad 10:33
nwc10 lizmat: agree with your assessment of Kiev's hackathon 10:35
sergot lizmat: ok, so we have place, we have people, we have everything, looking forward. :) 10:38
lizmat as well
FROGGS apejens: do you have an nqp-j in PATH by any chance?
apejens FROGGS: nope 10:39
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FROGGS apejens: is there a way to tell it to build rakudo-star-2014.04 by any chance? 10:45
apejens FROGGS: well, I can edit the brew I guess and try :P I moved on to my next brew install, but will try once that is done :p 10:46
FROGGS k 10:47
I never tried brew but I know that the chance to build for jvm backend is better for 2014.04 10:48
apejens: ahh, what is your java version btw?
apejens 1.7.0_25 it says 10:49
I guess I can skip the jvm backend as well :P
trying 2014.04 now 10:54
FROGGS: different error at least :P make: *** [gen/jvm/stage1/QAST.jar] Error 1 10:58
forgot to run with verbose 10:59
FROGGS hmmm :/
build for the MoarVM backend, if you don't deal with large texts or with async servers...
apejens I don't really deal with anything, was gonna try the games from github.com/tadzik/steroids 11:00
tadzik ha. Then you have to go moarvm :) 11:01
FROGGS apejens: then you probably want MoarVM, as it is the fastest for this
tadzik parrot may be fast enough, if you have a CPU from 2020 or so
and jvm has a dealbreaking nativecall bug
apejens ok :P
it runs out of heap space btw, thats what breaks building jvm 11:02
tadzik ouch
argh, chromium on aura is so horrible
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apejens seg fault this time 11:12
ahh well, office aircon is off, time to head home 11:13
tadzik oh, segfault? 11:17
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timotimo added tadzik and can now publish, i think 11:34
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lizmat just did a spectest with parrot: Files=816, Tests=30831, 430 wallclock secs ( 9.53 usr 4.10 sys + 2955.84 cusr 245.47 csys = 3214.94 CPU) 11:55
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lizmat twice as long as Moar, twice as much CPU and 1800 tests less 11:55
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dalek kudo/nom: f26787c | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Deprecations.pm:
Make it possible to obsolete variables elsewhere
 11:57
kudo/nom: c1bd713 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | README.md:
Show building with Moar as first option

Since we now have a Rakudo* that supports Moar, I think it is time.
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dalek kudo/nom: 4555386 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | / (4 files):
Initial implementation of $*DISTRO
 12:05
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dalek kudo/nom: 967f9c8 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/signals.pm:
Simplify signal() with $*DISTRO.signals
 12:16
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retupmoca tadzik: I made Task::Star work: github.com/tadzik/Task-Star/pull/2 12:31
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lizmat vendethiel: re irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-05-10#i_8704094 , is that the invocation to send a signal to a process? Or is that the invocation to get the list of available signals ? 12:32
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tadzik retupmoca: awesome, thanks! 12:34
dalek kudo/nom: c4f8f02 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/distro.pm:
$*DISTRO.OS->.name (as per spec), introduce is-win
 12:35
kudo/nom: 081ad6d | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/distro.pm:
Make $*DISTRO.is-win a bit better
 12:50
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lizmat r: $*OSVER # wtf? no spec, same as $*OS ? 12:55
camelia rakudo-jvm 455538: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
( no output )
lizmat r: say $*OSVER # wtf? no spec, same as $*OS ?
camelia rakudo-jvm 455538: OUTPUT«3.8.0-19-generic␤»
..rakudo-{parrot,moar} 455538: OUTPUT«linux␤»
lizmat r: say $*OS, $*OSVER # wtf? no spec, same as $*OS ? 12:56
camelia rakudo-jvm 455538: OUTPUT«Linux3.8.0-19-generic␤Saw 1 call to deprecated code during execution.␤================================================================================␤$*OS called at:␤ /tmp/tmpfile, line 1␤Please use $*DISTRO.OS instead.␤-----------------------…»
..rakudo-{parrot,moar} 455538: OUTPUT«linuxlinux␤Saw 1 call to deprecated code during execution.␤================================================================================␤$*OS called at:␤ /tmp/tmpfile, line 1␤Please use $*DISTRO.OS instead.␤------------------------…»
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dalek kudo/nom: f4b62f3 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/distro.pm:
Deprecate $*OSVER, introduce $*DISTRO.version
 13:02
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[Coke] gives up trying to get steroids to work on the mac and gets back to work. 13:10
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lizmat :w 13:11
[Coke]: does this ring a bell: my $osnames = lc any <darwin linux freebsd MSWin32 mingw msys... 13:12
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lizmat it's from t/spec/S02-magicals/config.t 13:12
I was wondering whether that list actually belongs in $*VM 13:13
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btyler [Coke]: yeah, the key bit for 'make install' still points to a path on tadzik's box...however! I got it going pretty quickly with minimal pain: (assuming SDL2/ttf/image installed): Configure.pl --> make -f Makefile.sdlwrapper --> make install --> ignore the error it outputs (about not being able to install steroids to your p6 lib, because it points to tadzik's box) and ./SpaceInvaders 13:14
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tadzik wow, I didn't even know there's a 'make install' there : 13:21
:D
the README didn't mention it, why did you folks run it :P
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[Coke] btyler: make -f Makefile.sdlwrapper dies. 13:23
need to point it at my SDL libs.
(need to make Configure.pl smart enough to use sdl-config, I think) 13:24
oh. there's already a call to sdl2-config? 13:27
tadzik yes
I will gladly accept any patches to Configure.pl that can make OSX work as intended 13:28
[Coke] sdlwrapper.c:3:10: fatal error: 'SDL_ttf.h' file not found
arnsholt tadzik: You're on the HN front page! =D
[Coke] I assumed it wasn't found because it wasn't probing, but it is.
tadzik arnsholt: holy batman :D
arnsholt ttjjss.wordpress.com/2014/05/11/new...-invaders/
tadzik its popularity is stunning 13:29
headline of perl weekly, tweeted by brian d foy, now HN
blog is hitting its all-time record in views per day
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[Coke] tadzik: do I need something other than libsdl2 @2.0.3_0 and libsdl2_image @2.0.0_1 ? 13:31
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tadzik [Coke]: sdl2_ttf 13:33
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[Coke] oh, you mean like it says in the readme? :) 13:34
tadzik yeah, that :P 13:35
[Coke] ok, installing that broke kcachegrind, but I think fixed this issue. :) 13:36
Can not bind non-existent attribute '$!h' 13:37
which then EXC_BAD_ACCESS (SIGSEGV)'d moar.
^^
tadzik :(
is that a recent rakudo/moar?
[Coke] This is perl6 version 2014.03.01-128-gaeda9d0 built on MoarVM version 2014.03-201-gf7ddc7e 13:38
so, not moldy, but not fresh
I'll try again with a fresh one later. :)
tadzik++
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tadzik it probably shouldn't be happening anyway 13:40
dalek ast: 3076c69 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S02-types/deprecations.t:
Add test for $*OSVER deprecation
 13:51
ast: b6f69e6 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | / (13 files):
s/$*OS/$*DISTRO.name where tested by Rakudo
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dalek kudo/nom: 8f76741 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/distro.pm:
Add Distr.(Str|gist)
 14:13
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tadzik hehe. 2000 visitors on the blog and counting. I think the internet is amused that you can use Perl 6 for practical stuff. A good thing :) 14:24
lizmat tadzik++
JimmyZ github.com/gaorongchao/Perl6/tree/...sing_perl6 # Chinese version :P 14:26
tadzik wow, nice :)
btyler anyone having panda bootstrap/rebootstrap fail? I've been rebootstrapping as part of my little rakudo-brew-alike script that runs every morning, but it failed testing panda, saying that it couldn't find it (and install/languages/perl6/site/bin wasn't in the search path?) 14:28
JimmyZ moritz: bbs.chinaunix.net/thread-4137901-1-1.html Perl 5 to 6 Chinese Version :P
btyler potentially related, I ufo'd panda, and 'make install' dies with a segfault (latest moar/nqp/rakudo as of 30 minutes ago) on compiling lib/Panda/Builder.pm
tadzik :o
JimmyZ Using Perl 6 online one: bbs.chinaunix.net/thread-4132588-1-1.html 14:29
tadzik I'll goan update my rakudo, let's see if I can reproduce this
JimmyZ # Chinese verion, I mean
lizmat btyler: fwiw, I'm seeing segfaults in spectest on OS X since yesterday
btyler just let me know what info would be helpful
ok
also on OSX here
lizmat I'm waiting for the next merge of jnthn / timotimo 's work on Moar before really complaining :-) 14:30
tadzik me too :)
lizmat it's not release time just yet :-)
tadzik With Steroids I'm struggling to make rakudo look slow; they're trying to speed it up, and they keep winning the race
timotimo oh no! 14:31
what did we do wrong again?
lizmat wish I could tell you
but latest Makudo isn't as stable 14:32
tadzik things don't explode for me so far, however I'm on moar from MOAR_REVISIONS
lizmat seeing segfaults at compile time
that used to be legit compile time errors
but I got the impression several things are in the pipeline from Moar again, so I'm not pursuing finding out how and what at the moment 14:34
tadzik I suppose spesh may be a bit over-eager optimizing things 14:35
dalek kudo-star-daily: 3ff0410 | coke++ | log/ (5 files):
today (automated commit)
rl6-roast-data: 95c25ee | coke++ | / (6 files):
today (automated commit)
tadzik spaceinvaders segfaulted for me, until I recompiled all the .moarvm files 14:36
then it works fine
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[Coke] (still hundreds of failures in rakudo.parrot and rakudo.jvm) 14:36
(as of yesterday) 14:37
:(
woolfy1 tadzik ++ for ttjjss.wordpress.com/2014/05/11/new...-invaders/ !!wow!!
tadzik :) 14:38
I think I should've maybe added some highscores, instructions and all, make it a proper game instead of an engine showcase
but it seems exciting enough :)
woolfy1 tadzik: I am quite sure that you will do that sometime in the near future... 14:39
lizmat suddenly represses the urge to re-implement "slot"
tadzik woolfy1: surely :)
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woolfy1 :-) 14:40
tadzik I'll need at least one proper, full-blown game for PLPW, I might just add more stuff to Space Invaders, looking at how famous they became today :)
woolfy1 (games are way too addictive to me, please don't make it too much fun to play)
tadzik I'll try :P
I'm wasting so much time on gaems myself that it's amazing to me how I get anything done 14:41
but, time you enjoy wasting is said to be not wasted
jnthn Is the MOAR_REVISION Rakudo more stable than the one with HEAD? 14:42
tadzik I'm on MOAR_REVISION, and I didn't notice any instability yet
jnthn ok
that corresponds to the initial spesh_trace merge; some other things landed after it.
Ulti when panda installs where are tests run from, the t/ directory? 14:43
lizmat tadzik: but you're not on OS X, right?
jnthn Would be helpful if those seeing issues could let me know if you're on HEAD or MOAR_REVISION.
lizmat on MOAR_REVISION
jnthn lizmat: Do you have the Panda issues?
tadzik lizmat: nope
Ulti: yes
tadzik installs Task::Star to torment rakudo a little 14:44
JimmyZ E:\OpenSource\MoarVM\install\bin\moar --libpath=src\vm\moar\stage0 src\v 14:45
m\moar\stage0\nqp.moarvm --bootstrap --setting=NULL --no-regex-lib --target=mbc
--output=gen\moar\stage1\nqpmo.moarvm gen\moar\stage1\nqpmo.nqp
NMAKE : fatal error U1077: “E:\OpenSource\MoarVM\install\bin\moar.EXE”: 返回代
btyler I'm on HEAD
JimmyZ 码“0xc0000005”
return code
jnthn Well, that certainly didn't happen for me.
JimmyZ maybe another x86 problem? :P 14:46
jnthn Maybe.
But recent if so.
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jnthn Anyway, for those seeing segfaults, doing debug builds and supplying gdb backtraces might help me find it. 14:47
timotimo .o( you can ufo panda?! )
jnthn Patches to fix it even more welcome :P
JimmyZ It will be an easy fix if it's not about spech or gc :P 14:48
spesh
jnthn spesh isn't always hard to fix.
The last SEGV somebody found in a spesh/gc interation, I had fixed in < an hour of looking.
*interaction
btyler jnthn: ok, I'll try to get a backtrace later today. patch unlikely unless it turns out to be a one character kind of thing :) 14:49
(the C chops, they are lacking...)
jnthn btyler: Thanks
JimmyZ hmm, I forgot how to add debug info to moar.dll 14:50
jnthn /pdb:$@.pdb
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dalek rlito: 55c3f9f | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | t5/01-perlito/500-regex-escape.t:
Perlito5 - add regex test
 14:59
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dalek kudo/nom: 65f75fb | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | / (4 files):
Implement $*VM as an object with methods, per spec

Mark $*VM<name|config> as DEPRECATED		 15:15
hoelzro tadzik++ # space invaders/post 15:20
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lizmat fwiw, I'm not seeing any segfaults in the spectest with MVM_SPESH_DISABLE=1 15:26
with spesh: Files=870, Tests=32653, 217 wallclock secs ( 8.17 usr 4.15 sys + 1351.02 cusr 158.28 csys = 1521.62 CPU) 15:27
15:27 igorsutton left
lizmat spesh disabled: Files=870, Tests=32670, 209 wallclock secs ( 8.27 usr 3.98 sys + 1292.98 cusr 143.84 csys = 1449.07 CPU) 15:27
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lizmat cycling& 16:02
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timotimo rakudo-moar seems about 3x faster at spesh_diff than rakudo-parrot, even though it does a fair amount of string joining 16:18
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timotimo p6: 1.765.fmt("% 3.2f").say 16:21
camelia rakudo-jvm 8f7674: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo-{parrot,moar} 8f7674: OUTPUT«1.77␤»
..niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: invalid format specifier␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1403 (sprintf @ 4) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 750 (Cool.fmt @ 4) ␤ at /tmp/tmpfile line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niec…»
timotimo isn't that supposed to put spaces before the 1?
p6: 1.765.fmt("%03.2f").say 16:22
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 8f7674, niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«1.77␤»
timotimo and that's supposed to pad to the left with zeroes?
PerlJam p6: 1.765.fmt("%05.2f").say
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 8f7674, niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«01.77␤» 16:23
PerlJam your field width wasn't wide enough to be padded with 0
timotimo oh! that's for the whole thing, then?
PerlJam yes 16:24
timotimo that explains it, PerlJam++
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TimToady it is not clear to me that putting "distro" in front of "os" makes "os" any less ambiguous 16:37
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TimToady is very tempted to ban "OS" like we banned "length" 16:42
if linux is the kernel, and ubuntu is the distro, what is the OS? 16:44
if it's some intermediate idea, we must define it 16:45
or drop it
masak +1
(hi, #perl6)
PerlJam TimToady: +1 16:46
TimToady it does not help that "linux" is terribly overloaded to mean "any distro built on top of a linux kernel"
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Ulti GNU/Linux 16:47
dakkar do you also need ABI, libc or whatever, and so on? "x86_64-pc-linux-gnu" and the like?
TimToady GNU/Linux is neither a distro nor a kernel 16:48
geekosaur ...and then there's the question of where debian kfreebsd fits
dakkar lacks a bit of context, speaks anyway
Ulti TimToady: no its a family of operating systems
like Microsoft Windows is
TimToady well, there's also $*ARCH, but in a sense the kernel is also a virtual machine
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Ulti a giant hash of POSIX compatibility would be more useful :P 16:49
TimToady Ulti: it's a very loose family, insofar as it merely means "some subset of the tools come from GNU"
Ulti yeah
GNU only say GNU/Linux because GNU/Hurd is trying to be a thing 16:50
PerlJam Ulti: %*ALL-THE-STUFF-YOU-NORMALLY-WOULD-PROBE-FOR
Ulti I think architecture should list the instruction set too :P just in case, and have a built in ontology so that we all know what instructions we are talking about cross CPU 16:52
(maybe joking)
TimToady well, that's more like $*ARCH
but yeah, one of the things I noticed way back when I first wrote a Configure script for rn was that we needed to test each feature, not rely on names of systems 16:53
Ulti usually when people are checking this sort of thing its a more specific feature they care about rather than the actual operating system, like a lot of people assume GNU tools if the kernel is Linux which is not a given at all
TimToady right, you can have a linux that is clang and bsd tools 16:54
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Ulti and OSX which changes its mind every release on what versions of things are used and where they are kept 16:56
TimToady but naming all the features is just as much of a fuzzball as trying to straighten out all the contextual names
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TimToady of the two, the feature-based approach is less fragile, but requires more upfront maintenance 16:57
naming systems foists the work off on the people who later discover that $*SYSNAME is too blunt an ax 16:58
Ulti also what happens in Cygwin
is that an OS?
TimToady but portability to not-yet-existent systems is enhanced by a feature-based approach 16:59
liztormato TimToady: Fwiw. I already committed $*DISTRO.name in favor of .OS
TimToady that would be a negative favor, but okay 17:00
(just saying a native English speaker would use "in favor of" the other way around) 17:01
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liztormato Hehe. Ok 17:01
TimToady but your English is still much better than my Dutch :)
liztormato I have patches ready for $*kERNEL.name and .arch 17:02
TimToady why .arch if $*ARCH is speccced?
liztormato Ah. Good question. No particular reason. Will follow spec :-) 17:03
TimToady (which is, of course, open for negotiation, as long as we're revising the whole taxonomy of contexts)
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liztormato I guess my main reason was that it was easier to fetch the info on demand 17:04
TimToady of course, cpu architectures are also so very simple to classify... :/ 17:05
liztormato uname -p if i recall
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geekosaur ahahah 17:06
uname values and flags are far from usefully standardized
posix says one thing, everyone itnerprets it their own way and the result is chaos
(moreover posix refuses to even touch some thigs that would be quite useful if standardized)
liztormato My point was that I wanted to create a framework
Food& 17:07
[Coke] .u 1F595 17:09
yoleaux No characters found
TimToady posix is in the category of names that guarantee of certain minimum levels of api support, a feature bundle, as it were
nwc10 $ uname -p 17:10
uname: illegal option -- p
usage: uname [-amnrsvil] [-S nodename]
TimToady the C programming interface is much richer than that, depending on what libaries are guaranteed by your distro name and your additional downloads
nwc10 (been round that maze just a couple of days ago)
liztormato nwc10: On linux an darwin inly, atm 17:11
TimToady someone should invent a URL-equivalent for feature dependencies 17:12
nwc10 $ uname -p
unknown
$ uname -s
Linux
:-)
The "illegal option -- p" was from HP/UX 17:13
And it says:
$ uname -m
9000/800
soooo helpful.
The joyful bit of POSIX I discovered today was hcreate and friends: pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/00969...reate.html 17:15
not threadsafe
nothing is sane. :-( 17:16
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geekosaur yes, ancient chunks of system v libc that got standardized for no good reason 17:23
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geekosaur I am currently quite down on POSIX; turns out they took some stuff they standardized early on for the shell spec and dropped it, so scripts written "to POSIX spec" are no longer guaranteed to work on "POSIX compliant" systems 17:24
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geekosaur way to state openly that you're all about getting as many vendors signed on as possible, at the expense of being in any way useful, dear POSIX 17:25
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vendethiel o/ 17:42
lizmat: I'm not sure what taskkill sends, I think it just crashes the PID 17:43
FROGGS when I need something about distro/os/whatever it is mostly about: 17:45
a) is it unixoid or windowsish?
b) what is the distribution and version? (like openbsd 5.5, to go insane with -pthread) 17:46
c) is it a 32 or 64 bit machine
maybe we need our very own model of all these things
so that we only have properties that are really are unique properties, and not things that almost mean something but are off to 10 to 20% 17:47
liztormato That's what I'm going for
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FROGGS so I think $*DIST.name and .ver and perhaps .auth is the easiest one 17:48
the others are more questionable
liztormato I saw a lot of adhoc knowledge in the spectest that I wanted to gather at a central place 17:49
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liztormato More cycling& 17:54
17:54 liztormato left 17:57 rindolf left 18:00 berekuk joined, rindolf joined 18:04 kPhone joined
kPhone Seen au 18:06
18:07 timo joined, test joined
kPhone seen camelia 18:07
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FROGGS .seen kPhone 18:17
yoleaux I saw kPhone 18:07Z in #perl6: <kPhone> seen camelia
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retupmoca panda on moarvm looks broken 18:23
FROGGS :/ 18:24
retupmoca boostrap gives a lot of 'No subtests run'
MVM_SPESH_DISABLE bootstrap gives a few 'Attempt to read past end of string heap (index 9109510)' as well 18:25
jnthn, timotimo: ^
18:25 spider-mario left
timotimo oh shit. 18:25
retupmoca This is perl6 version 2014.04-230-g65f75fb built on MoarVM version 2014.04-129-g024b994 18:26
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tadzik is that the MOAR_REVISION revision? 18:28
retupmoca HEAD 18:29
I build on master/master/nom normally 18:30
btyler likewise, same issue as retupmoca (mentioned it this morning, haven't had time to get a debug moar/gdb going) 18:37
lizmat TimToady: I can't find $*ARCH specced anywhere? 18:46
dalek kudo/nom: 7e5cf89 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (2 files):
.version -> .ver for *$VM, $*DISTRO
 18:47
kudo/nom: 26ddce2 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | / (4 files):
NEW! $*KERNEL name,ver,release,hardware,arch
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lizmat please note that at this stage, $*KERNEL is an empty framework waiting for specific OS dependent info to be implemented 18:48
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timotimo i'm still looking for feedback for adding a trait "is subcommand" that tells the autogenerated main to put an argument that's decorated with it before all nameds in the usage message 18:53
as in: multi MAIN("foobar" is subcommand, $arg, $arg2, :$foo, :$bar)
or maybe multi MAIN(...) is subcommand("foobar") or something like that
PerlJam timotimo: what sort of feedback? (+1 from me btw) 18:54
timotimo or only "is subcommand" to make the first positional be "the subcommand"
moritz timotimo: IMHO that stretches the signature analogy a bit too far
timotimo feedback as in: +1, -1, suggestions for what it really should be called and where it should be put
moritz timotimo: in the case of command lines, there are typically arguments for the command and the subcommand
s/arguments/options/
timotimo oh, hm. 18:55
moritz timotimo: but in signatures, all named args share the same namesapce
git --git-dir=/tmp/foo log -p
timotimo i'd just like to have a way to make the usage of p6bench less stupid
moritz write a command line parsing module that supports subcommands? 18:56
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timotimo mhh 18:56
but that'd be *work*! :( 18:57
moritz or if you need many args, write config files instead
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timotimo i was going to write a TUI frontend at some point to ease usage 18:59
since you have to throw around revision numbers and stuff all the time
19:02 rurban1 joined 19:03 rurban left
hoelzro . 19:05
oops
19:10 igorsutton joined 19:11 darutoko- left 19:15 hoverboard joined
timotimo .~ 19:16
dalek rl6-roast-data: c2362cc | coke++ | / (6 files):
today (automated commit)
 19:18
19:18 telex left
[Coke] java now has nearly -300- failures. 19:19
moar more than doubled up to 32.
parrot holding steady around 200
moar/java are failing in S17. parrot is still failing in S32-temporal 19:21
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[Coke] yay, found the root cause of most of the java failures... 19:26
dalek kudo/nom: dd8ff2f | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/kernel.pm:
Introduce $*KERNEL.bits (either 32 or 64 for now)
 19:28
kudo/nom: e2c9ba5 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (2 files):
Add some intro commentaries
kudo/nom: e282938 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/kernel.pm:
$*KERNEL.bits probably better depends on .hardware
lizmat hopes [Coke] is working on a patch 19:31
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FROGGS [Coke]: do tell! 19:32
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dalek ecs: ec4ff99 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S28-special-names.pod:
We're not going to have a %*INC
 19:35
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masak .oO( throw it down the inc-well ) 19:36
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moritz is that a quantum inc well? 19:39
[Coke] S17-supply/categorize.t and S17-supply/classify.t have an invalid fudge line of:
#?rakudo.jvm todo 3 "D: doesn't work in signatures" 19:40
^^ not even needed, since java passes all those tests.
that brings java in line with moar.
if someone could fix those up, I'd appreciate it.
lizmat [Coke]: will do 19:41
TimToady: re S28:137, shouldn't that be a role rather than a class ? 19:42
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S28.html#line_137
TimToady probably 19:44
[Coke] (the fudge line is invalid because it's supposed to be "3 todo" not "todo 3", btw.)
TimToady though Application is kind of a lousy name for it
it's more like an uniquely identified entity 19:45
rosettacode.org/wiki/Order_disjoint...ems#Perl_6
this RC task made me sad that $bag{$key}-- blows up if the key isn't in the bag 19:46
seems like it would be nicer if -- would just do nothing and return false if the key isn't in a set or bag
vendethiel that seems surprising to me
m: my %h; say %h<a> 19:47
camelia rakudo-moar 26ddce: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
vendethiel mmh
lizmat vendethiel: bags are only hashes to some level
TimToady in particular this line: (bag{$_} && bag{$_}-- ?? N.shift !! $_ for M) 19:48
lizmat TimToady: S02:1697 needs changing then
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html#line_1697
TimToady m: my $b = <a b c>.BagHash; say $b<d>-- // 0 19:50
camelia rakudo-moar 26ddce: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find symbol '&Return'␤»
lizmat yes, that's odd, looking at that now
TimToady p6: my $b = <a b c>.BagHash; say $b<d>-- // 0 19:51
camelia rakudo-parrot 26ddce: OUTPUT«Could not find symbol '&Return'␤ in method <anon> at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:12684␤ in any at gen/parrot/Metamodel.nqp:2710␤ in any find_method_fallback at gen/parrot/Metamodel.nqp:2698␤ in any find_method at gen/parrot/Metamodel.nqp:949␤ …»
..rakudo-moar 26ddce: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find symbol '&Return'␤»
..rakudo-jvm 26ddce: OUTPUT«Could not find symbol '&Return'␤ in method <anon> at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:12661␤ in any at gen/jvm/Metamodel.nqp:2627␤ in any find_method_fallback at gen/jvm/Metamodel.nqp:2626␤ in any find_method at gen/jvm/Metamodel.nqp:948␤ in any at gen…»
..niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«0␤»
TimToady niecza++
rakudobug-- 19:52
lizmat but but, niecza is *not* according to spec 19:53
or is it?
TimToady it returns a failure, which is undefined, I imagine
failures do not throw exception when evaluated in defined or boolean context 19:54
lizmat n: my $b = <a b c>.BagHash; say ($b<d>--).WHAT
TimToady in fact, I ought to just be able to evaluate the result in the ??!!
camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
TimToady should perhaps be Nil, but whatevs 19:55
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TimToady anyway, that solution is already spectacularly short compared to the other languages (except J, of course), but it's shame it has to do the lookup twice currently 19:57
well, and the error message in question is way LTA
lizmat that's because there is an error in the error message
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dalek ecs: 058fc44 | TimToady++ | S02-bits.pod:
s/Failure/undefined/ for decrement on sets/bags
 20:00
TimToady failure is overkill for something that will be used frequently for set/bag membership
lizmat TimToady: would Nil work also?
TimToady Nil tends to screw up the type system a bit 20:01
lizmat so just Int then?
TimToady well, Bool on sets 20:02
lizmat indeed
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TimToady m: my %a; say %a<nonesuch> 20:02
camelia rakudo-moar 26ddce: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
TimToady that seems consistent
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lizmat hmmm on SetHash , -- would give False, I guess? 20:03
not Bool?
TimToady well, False is the default when subscripting, but I think Bool indicates the attempt to decrement from False, which is more undefined than False 20:05
similarly, there's a difference between removing the last element from a bag and trying to remove one that isn't there 20:06
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TimToady so an undefined value is more appropriate than 0 (the default) would be, in the case of an active decrement 20:07
a mere failed subscript would return 0 or False, of course
with postfix -- it doesn't much matter, but maybe it matters more with prefix -- 20:08
where a 0 means you just removed the last one, and (Int) means there wasn't one to remove in the first place
lizmat ok 20:10
TimToady so you could reasonably write: my $remaining = --$bag{$key} // die "There isn't a $key in that bag!"
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TimToady oh goodness, lunch forgot to happen 20:11
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masak m: my $b = False; $b--; say $b 20:12
camelia rakudo-moar 26ddce: OUTPUT«False␤»
masak m: say False.pred
camelia rakudo-moar 26ddce: OUTPUT«False␤»
TimToady yes, well, there is thta 20:18
*that
I suppose one could think of bags as counted in a set of integers that cannot go negative 20:19
lizmat uints? 20:20
Natural?
TimToady not suggesting it has to be implemented that way
lizmat ok 20:22
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lizmat grr... Proxy doesn't seem to be implemented correctly 20:39
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lue anyone else unable to bootstrap panda lately? 20:44
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btyler lue: yeah, I think timotimo++ identified the offending lines in moar 20:57
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lizmat gist.github.com/lizmat/7f7ecc7fdbd4152c9932 Proxy.FETCH being called *EIGHT* times for a simple access ?? 21:03
jnthn: ^^^ huh?
jnthn lizmat: Well, you've probably hit the worst case there... 21:05
for one the multi-dispatcher won't have got its caches primed yet, I guess...
So the ++ may well be hitting that
Oh...
Worse
Proxy can't hit the cache. 21:06
lizmat it's very easy to have it do it many, many times more
jnthn Because the cache can't run code.
lizmat I'm not sure how Proxy is supposed to work, as it is definitely not up to spec 21:07
jnthn So I suspect it's going to the proto, then through the multi-dispatcher, etc.
lizmat but why would it call Fetch everytime ?
jnthn The problem with Proxy is this: decont is generally cheap and side-effect free
How can it *not* call fetch every time?
21:07 brrt left
jnthn If you're passing a containerized thing off to a bunch of things that need the value within it, then each one is going to have to obtain the value 21:08
That's done by fetch
dalek ast: 63a9cb3 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S17-supply/c (2 files):
Unfudge faulty fudges, colomon++
 21:09
lizmat sorry, I'm not seeing it 21:10
even $a<b> does 8 FETCHes, without doing an increment or decrement or whatever 21:11
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jnthn lizmat: Made the best way to grok it is to take a look at how often decont shows up in the bytecode. Every time something needs to do a type check on a value in a container, there's a decont. Every time you call a method on something in a container, there's at decont. Every time the thing is put into self, there's a decont to get it and bind it into self. Just from those second two, calling a method on something will always need to decont at least twice. 21:17
lizmat all I can say is: wow, Proxy is *really* expensive 21:19
jnthn And say almost certainly is calling print, which may well in turn call a lower level thing.
Yeah, it will be.
lizmat so, is there another way to implement ++ and -- on BagHashes ?
(and SetHashes and MixHashes) ?
jnthn Well, given I don't know what it's meant to do... :)
lizmat basically the same as on a hash 21:20
masak as someone who reaches for Proxy sometimes, I'm sort of assuming/expecting it to be expensive. so is tie-ing in Perl 5, I guess.
'night, #perl6
jnthn Yeah, Proxy is really rather hard to optimize...
colomon colomon?++
lizmat: ?
lizmat in Perl 5, FETCH is only called once when needed
Oops, I meant [Coke]++ 21:21
jnthn You're acting like we're calling it just for the hell of it :/ 21:22
Please, take some time to understand the container model.
lizmat I'm just very unhappily surprised 21:23
I guess I should :-)
jnthn As for a solution, maybe if it's like how hashes work, then the WHENCE mechanism hashes uses - which is far cheaper - could help.
lizmat anyway, the way Proxy currently works, I cannot make it return Int / Bool on -- on a non-existing key
jnthn About the Panda issue: I have it reproduced here. 21:24
Unfortunately, it's not proving easy to hunt down when things got broken... :( 21:26
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lizmat jnthn: how about this idea: have BagHash return a special BagValue object 21:54
and create candidates for postcircumfix ++ and -- for BagValue objects ? 21:55
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jnthn lizmat: Sounds workable 21:59
dalek kudo/nom: 3583767 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/BagHash.pm:
Quick fix for change at S02:1698
 22:01
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html#line_1698
lizmat TimToady: RC example should work with this
jnthn Panda appears not to work all the way back at 29c5c9d9 :( 22:02
lizmat that's in moar / nqp ? not in rakudo or? 22:03
jnthn That's a moar sha1 22:04
Indicating the point of the spesh_trace merge
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jnthn Thing is it breaks with MVM_SPESH_DISABLE=1 22:05
btyler jnthn: that'd correspond to my fuzzy check -- I do a master/master/nom/panda rebootstrap most weekday mornings EST, and nothing jumped out at me on friday 22:06
(as in, rebuild everything from head and then panda rebootstrap)
jnthn It's going to take some effort to work out exactly what is to blame. 22:07
Since I'll also have to recreate NQP builds at the appropriate commits also
And I'm too tired to do that tonight. 22:08
btyler is that something that could be automated? I ran into the same problem trying to bisect a few minutes ago. seems like a script could keep things in sync as you moved forward/back on whichever axis (moar/nqp/rakudo) is interesting
I was just going by rough date, though 22:09
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jnthn Well, building d6a554f in Moar against an NQP pre-lexopts merge would be one itnersting data point 22:11
As would building abaec70 in Moar with where lexopts was before it was sync'd with master of NQP I guess 22:12
2395d29 would also be an interesting one to try. 22:13
Anyway, I should sleep...really tired :(
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lizmat gnight jnthn! and thanks for all the help! jnthn++ 22:23
dalek ast: 90be507 | (David Warring [email@hidden.address] | integration/advent2013-day19.t:
removed cruft
 22:24
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TimToady lizmat: I would think the lists of available signals would be determined by the kernel, not by the distro 23:30
lizmat so $*KERNEL.signals instead of $*DISTRO.signals ?
TimToady Ubuntu has no opinion on signals, but the syscall to Linux sure does 23:31
lizmat BTW, making BagHash<unknown_key>-- return Int, is proving to be quite a lot of extra code :-( 23:32
I'm not sure it is all worth it
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TimToady maybe there's a simpler way to do it 23:34
lizmat gist.github.com/lizmat/80b8c5b3a02f8a742c0c work so far
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TimToady m: say Int.pred 23:36
camelia rakudo-moar 358376: OUTPUT«Invocant requires an instance, but a type object was passed␤ in method Bridge at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4495␤ in sub infix:<-> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4394␤ in method pred at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4038␤ in block at /tmp/ruYZXLkgL3:1␤␤»
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TimToady wonders what the fallout of defining .succ/.pred on type objects to be transparent 23:38
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TimToady ...would be 23:39
lizmat Any.pred( self ) ?
TimToady it's an idea
dunno if it's a good one 23:40
lizmat will try that tomorrow maybe
will be on the road most of tomorrow
TimToady safe drivin'
dalek kudo/nom: 9fa1db5 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (3 files):
$*KERNEL.signals instead of $*DISTRO.signals
 23:42
lizmat and with that, I've reached my commit limit for today 23:43
gnight, #perl6!
colomon o/ 23:51
$*VM<config> called at: 23:53
lib/NativeCall.pm6, lines 116,120
Please use $*VM.config instead.
hmmm...
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