»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 25 June 2013.
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dalek ast/S26-WHY: 307ede2 | (Rob Hoelz)++ | integration/advent2011-day10.t:
Fix up integration test for 2011 advent calender post
 01:08
ast/S26-WHY: df01b91 | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-TODO:
More damn notes
ecs/S26: 8c901dc | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-documentation.pod:
Refer to .content method for Pod blocks rather than .contents
 01:11
hoelzro I have a change to the spec that I'd like others to review: github.com/perl6/specs/pull/66 01:13
it's pretty simple, but I don't want to start changing the specs willy-nilly =/
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PerlJam hoelzro: +1 from me 03:20
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dalek ast/S26-WHY: a593fad | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-TODO:
Remove completed things from TODO

Since I've done them already		 03:58
ast/S26-WHY: d222e79 | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-documentation/why-leading.t:
Check leading
ast/S26-WHY: c529aad | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-documentation/why-leading.t:
Check definedness of trailing properties if none are provided
ast/S26-WHY: 2439f03 | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-documentation/why-trailing.t:
Flesh out trailing WHY tests a bit
ast/S26-WHY: cff801d | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-documentation/why-both.t:
Add leading/trailing checks to why-both.t
ast/S26-WHY: e92b2a8 | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-TODO:
Check leading/trailing off of the TODO list
ast/S26-WHY: e9406ec | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-documentation/why-leading.t:
Test WHEREFORE in leading docs
 04:12
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sergot o/ 06:08
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Mouq . 07:10
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FROGGS__ .u Ł 07:50
yoleaux U+0141 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER L WITH STROKE [Lu] (Ł)
sergot .u Ó
yoleaux U+00D3 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O WITH ACUTE [Lu] (Ó)
FROGGS__ m: say "Ł".ord 07:51
camelia rakudo-moar b46af8: OUTPUT«321␤»
FROGGS__ so, create a hash with 0xA3 => 0x141 and all the other latin2 specific chars
sergot is there any faster way to do this? 07:54
moritz doing it in NQP or in C would be faster
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FROGGS__ m: my %latin2-to-cp = 163 => 0x141; say buf8.new( 0xA3 ).list.map({ %latin2-to-cp{$_} })>>.chr.join 07:57
camelia rakudo-moar b46af8: OUTPUT«Ł␤»
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FROGGS__ moritz: would be faster at runtime, aye 07:57
moritz: but it would not be faster to implement for all three backends
so I'd vote for "make it work then make it fast" 07:58
in case we don't care about portability much, we could implement that in moarvm only 07:59
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moritz +1 08:01
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FROGGS__ moritz: +1 to what? :o) 08:02
moritz FROGGS__: to "make it work then make it fast" 08:03
FROGGS__ ahh, k
I guess we need that map also in MoarVM, so it should be pretty easy to move it to C when it works
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FROGGS__ jnthn: you don't mind if we add latin2 to 15 to MoarVM? 08:04
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sergot FROGGS++ thanks 08:14
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masak good antenoon, #perl6 08:26
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arnsholt o/ 08:28
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[Coke] \o 08:48
jnthn o/ 08:49
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FROGGS__ froggs@TL02L-R8RXTCW-linux:~/dev/rakudo$ perl6-m -e 'say buf8.new( 0xA3 ).decode("latin1")' 09:03
£
froggs@TL02L-R8RXTCW-linux:~/dev/rakudo$ perl6-m -e 'say buf8.new( 0xA3 ).decode("latin2")'
Ł
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FROGGS__ jnthn: can you please review if that is the right thing to do? 09:05
github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/commit/4b...ca4fa7adee
github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c1...6eeeffcb02
sergot: ^^ # though, perhaps we do it in another way, we'll see 09:06
bbiab
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sergot FROGGS__: looks nice for me 09:27
dalek kudo/latin2: c1f61b8 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/core/Str.pm:
stub latin2 support
 09:29
sergot FROGGS__: better thanks this: github.com/sergot/http-useragent/c...536ce1934d
jnthn FROGGS__: I think you've updated the needed places
FROGGS__: Question is if we want to put every encoding under the sun into the VM :)
masak is there a cost in doing so? 09:30
jnthn Code size... :)
masak hm.
jnthn If they're all just mappings though, we could potentially factor out a lot of the repetition.
masak sounds like it. 09:31
jnthn May be good to figure out how to do that if there's 15 of them... :) 09:33
.oO( For a dead language, Latin sure has a lot of encodings... )
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ren1us jnthn: the biologists keep coming up with new ones to mess with our heads :( 09:35
masak I don't know why people insist on calling Latin "dead". there are lots of languages with less life in them than Latin. 09:36
sergot jnthn: where can we put it? 09:37
if not into the vm 09:38
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jnthn sergot: Well, depends if you're going to do IO with it...if you are it kinda has to go there at the moment due to the decodestream stuff. 09:39
Though that's actually trivial for latin-x
Because they're one byte encodings :)
Oh
No, it's still awful.
'cus NFG :)
sergot actually, my goal is to .decode something here: github.com/sergot/http-useragent/b...t.pm6#L152
so I did this: github.com/sergot/http-useragent/c...536ce1934d 09:40
and FROGGS__ came up with an idea to put it into the vm
jnthn ah, ok 09:41
FROGGS[mobile] the factoring is exactly why I ask
sergot How can we do this, I'll need almost every encoding :)
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jnthn How's in done in the Perl 5 modules for this stuff, ooc? 09:43
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sergot jnthn: metacpan.org/pod/Encode#decode 09:47
it uses Encode module
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sergot m: say 0xa4.base: 10 09:54
camelia rakudo-moar b46af8: OUTPUT«164␤»
sergot m: say 0xA4.base: 10 09:55
camelia rakudo-moar b46af8: OUTPUT«164␤»
sergot m: say 0xA3.base: 10
camelia rakudo-moar b46af8: OUTPUT«163␤»
masak the joy of hex. 09:57
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colomon as of this morning, all the results in host07.perl6.com:8080/report are from moar. \o/ 10:38
also, supernovus still needs to fix his modules (from just by changing eval to EVAL) 10:39
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jnthn I'm happy to see tehre was no change from 14th-15th. That means the strref Moar branch merge hasn't busted modules. 10:41
colomon++ # reports
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dalek ecs: d35e527 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S22-package-format.pod:
Elaborate a bit more on the Distribution object.

As another step into generalizing the installation process of a distribution.		 11:05
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timotimo o/ 11:25
carlin \o 11:26
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timotimo FROGGS__: is that wikipedia link correct in your patch? it points to the -1 page and then lists the things for -2 11:42
Ven t.co/n98zm1ykjb <- I sure hope that's not really python's BDFL. Else I'd have much sads.
carlin has anyone ever mentioned that perl6 is slow? 11:45
carlin ducks
but seriously, parsing this XML is taking valuable seconds
timotimo yeah, perl6 is kinda slow. we're working on it :) 11:46
carlin :p 11:47
Ven is quite happy with the improvements he's noticed since he went from 2014.03-p to master-m :P 11:48
(though for my CLI scripts, it was fast enough with 2014.03-p, I don't really care)
timotimo the string improvements in latest moar-master (and thus in the newest release) will make a nice difference for many things 11:49
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carlin ohh I should probably do a git pull 11:50
timotimo git pull alone won't be enough :P
carlin and a perl Configure etc. etc. :p
maybe even a make install 11:51
timotimo jnthn.net/perl6/bench/2014-07-15.html - this one compares last month's rakudo-moar with a rakudo-moar that has strref merged in
Ven 10x slower than p5 seems okay to me :P 11:53
wow, parrot is lagging behind quite a bit
timotimo that's parrot from a year ago
Ven did it change that much ?
timotimo it did change, aye.
it's also rakudo from a year ago 11:54
so nqp and rakudo optimizer things are missing
moritz waht is strref?
timotimo "strings refactor"
where "refactor" could also have been called "rewrite"
Ven
.oO( I factored the old code to the bin )
FROGGS__ timotimo: no, that link needs an update, I forgot to adjust it 11:55
timotimo OK
Ven So, for quite a bit, rakudo-m is *only* 10 times slower than p5 ?
flussence blinks in surprise 11:56
it wasn't that long ago the code to generate s26.html took *half an hour* on my laptop...
Ven When I came here, only 4 months ago, I remember seeing 400 times slower pretty much everywhere (but I was looking at parrot)
flussence (or was that the CSS module I gave up on? I threw a lot of things away out of frustration back then...)
timotimo Ven: look out, it's mostly microbenchmarks you're looking at 11:57
carlin :( latest HEAD rakudo still taking the same time to parse this XML
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timotimo carlin: maybe it'd be interesting if you'd paste your code and had people look at it? 11:58
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Ven timotimo: I was looking at micros too 12:00
carlin it's github.com/carbin/p6-jdf
Ven I wasn't `time`ing back then (I did it a bit ago, but got depressed :P)
timotimo ah, "use XML", i'll have to look at that 12:02
flussence just wondering, do any of those benchmarks cover Buf/pack/unpack/fmt? I'm interested how much the jit speeds that up since last time I checked, there's almost no low-level code in those.
timotimo we don't have any of those 12:03
and the JIT doesn't kick in for on-stack-replacement, only for function calls, so it wouldn't change any of the benchmarks we currently have
Ven (micro benchmark, incrementing a var 1mil times : ruby 0.08s. p6 1.43s) 12:05
timotimo Ven: now make that a native int :)
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Ven timotimo: can't find type int 12:06
timotimo show me your code?
Ven oh, wait, I get it.
m: my int ;
camelia rakudo-moar b46af8: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Type 'int' is not declared. Did you mean 'Int'?␤at /tmp/wnz7qm08E1:1␤------> my int ⏏;␤Malformed my␤at /tmp/wnz7qm08E1:1␤------> my int ⏏;␤ expecting any of:␤ …»
timotimo hehe
yes, that error message is bogus and ought to be corrected
*cough cough*
Ven yeah, that's why. I had double-quoted, so I first changed to Int, then I got the correct error message so I fixed it to double quotes(but I already removed the int) 12:07
0.48s :) graet
6 times slower instead of 17 :P 12:08
jnthn Then subtract startup time...
...and the factor is rather different. :) 12:09
timotimo that's right. start-up time on my machine is about 0.2 seconds 12:11
0.25
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timotimo ruby starts up in about 0 :) 12:12
so we have:
m: say (0.48 - 0.25) / 0.08
camelia rakudo-moar b46af8: OUTPUT«2.875␤»
timotimo 3x slower :P
you just have to manipulate the numbers enough, so that it looks better 12:13
carlin still rememebers ~2009 parrot taking several seconds to start up
at least things are improving, that's a bonus
timotimo that was when we used to compile the whole setting before running the user program, wasn't it?
before "bounded serialization" landed? 12:14
jnthn I don't think we've ever done that...
timotimo well, something like that anyway :P
carlin perl6 is fast if you ignore enough of the bits that make it slow :p
jnthn Oh...yeah...
timotimo carlin: yup, that's the doublethink you have to commit to if you want to be welcome here
jnthn Well, looking at the XML grammar, it uses regexes and backtracking in a bunch of places.
timotimo jnthn: and due to $*STOPPER it has almost no declarative prefixes to speak of for much of its matching 12:15
jnthn: but at least it has frugal matching in most places
jnthn Yeah, but I think it's not getting a lot of benefit out of the NFA stuff. 12:16
timotimo i wonder how xml::parser::tiny compares 12:18
Ven 0.388 for time perl6 -e "" :o 12:19
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timotimo oh wow. that's even slower than on my machine 12:19
m: say (0.48 - 0.38) / 0.08
camelia rakudo-moar b46af8: OUTPUT«1.25␤»
timotimo well, that's something.
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timotimo but ruby isn't exactly known for good performance anyway 12:19
Ven 1.25x times slower than ruby ? I'll take it :P
So much drugs for free !
timotimo ... what? 12:20
masak I'm also wondering what.
jnthn You expect sense out of somebody who's getting so much drugs for free? :P 12:21
lizmat I think Ven means execution of Perl6 is intoxicating
timotimo oh
masak oh, that must be it.
timotimo well, that's nice
masak you're welcome :)
Ven lizmat saves the day
lizmat yw :-) 12:22
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Ven actually, I was just quoting an article of a rubyist that found p6 to be quite thrilling, and that started something like "Being a long-date rubyist, when I first looked at perl" (5) ", I realized that ruby was pretty much perl's sister, doing a bit less drugs and saner. But with perl 6, the story is different [...]" 12:23
lizmat so I was right in a way :-) 12:24
atroxaper Ven: who is that? 12:25
Hello, #perl6 !
timotimo haha, great
Ven atroxaper: not sure. One of the many blog posts I read when I started looking at perl 6
(and then realized perl 6 was looking at me)
timotimo i think i remember that post
hoelzro morning #perl6 12:26
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masak ahoj, hoelzro. 12:27
Ven helo
sergot o/ hoelzro
o/ atroxaper
atroxaper o/ sergot !
carlin XML takes about ~8 seconds just to parse the document, XML::Parser::Tiny takes about 2 seconds 12:31
hoelzro is there some mechanism within the compiler that causes Routine objects that are built up over the compilation phase to be cloned and have the clones used for runtime?
I'm seeing something like that when I try getting WHEREFORE to work 12:32
(example: gist.github.com/hoelzro/5042fa489fdb0c6acc67)
Ven kresimirbojcic.com/2013/02/24/perl-...topia.html <- that's the article, atroxaper 12:33
<< After a couple of years of looking at Lisp, Smalltalk and Perl I would say: “Ruby is a Perl sister that’s not doing drugs”. She is more lovable but also less intriguing and wild. >>
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timotimo does someone want to give me access to rakudo.org's wordpress installation? 12:34
i'm idly clicking through the perl6.org website and looking at outdated/dead links and/or information here and there 12:35
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timotimo there's also links i don't know how to fix, like the link to perlmonks.org/node=SOpW 12:35
oh, that's supposed to be ?node=SOpW 12:36
though perlmonks.org/?node_id=479 may be a better address to point to
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lizmat now that's what I call a dead parrot: c.fastcompany.net/multisite_files/f...ch-art.jpg 12:42
timotimo kinda reminds me of the huge duck floting down the river ... 12:43
masak it's just restin'!
carlin it's pining for the fjords
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timotimo perl6.org/getting-started/ - we really need to fill in the void that "grab the latest .pdf file of this book to learn perl 6" currently represents ... 12:44
linking to the book seems a bit dishonest to me
Ven: will your tutorial be a good replacement, once you consider it publishable?
lizmat hopes so
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Ven timotimo: I'm currently focused on the learnXinYminutes, which doesn't try to teach *programming* at all :) 12:44
atroxaper Ven: thanks!
Ven the tutorial is intended towards newbies and explains some stuff like OO, which is going to take a lot more time to skim through 12:45
timotimo Ven: the perl6 book didn't teach programming itself at all, either
oh, hmm.
lizmat fwiw, I think Ven's approach will bear fruit in time as well
maybe add it as an alternative link ? 12:46
carlin is the XML module inherently slow or is it just that it uses features that are currently slow?
lizmat without looking: is it doing concat's a lot ?
carlin backtracking 12:47
moritz I don't think you need backtracking to parse XML
hoelzro timotimo: I take it to mean that you wish for the book to be improved?
I've been thinking that for a while, but there's so much to cover 12:49
timotimo hoelzro: i wish for there to be a good thing to point non-irc-visiting interested-people towards
and yeah, there's a *lot* cover to cover :P
hoelzro so book, site, wiki, whatever
timotimo aye
Ven timotimo: hmm, it's a standpoint I need to take a stand one. I'm not sure.
hoelzro hmm
I could add that to my huge list of things I want to help with
timotimo sounds good! :P
well, i was hoping i could come up with a cool interactive thingie, but it'd require there to be a sandboxy thingie that's reliable 12:50
Ven I'm leaning towards "teaching programming" (not the basics,but still pretty much)
timotimo moritz: can you give me an account on rakudo.org? 12:51
moritz timotimo: yes, please /msg me your email address
timotimo will do
lizmat likes Ven's approach
timotimo Ven: i find the prospect of teaching programming with perl 6 very enticing 12:52
because i find perl6's design to be pretty consistent and free of annoying special cases
there's almost only flattening that needs explaining and can cause a bit of surprises here and there
everything else seems to be mostly straight-forward conclusions from basic principles 12:53
moritz timotimo: invitation sent
timotimo thank you!
Ven timotimo: it's consistent and straight-forward because you have such a background. 12:58
What I mean is ... There's soooo much on your plate, it's hard to engulf
timotimo that's true, too :(
Ven Which reminds me : ruby has no 0.0 of startup time. YARV takes a bit of time, too 12:59
timotimo really? how much?
Ven Not sure at all :D. I just remembered that detail
well, no reason to be sad, is it ? I thought perl was proud to have newcomers writing "baby perl" then becoming all grown-up-perlists
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lizmat indeed :-) 13:04
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timotimo aye 13:06
moritz: the mail hasn't reached me yet. got an idea what may be wrong? 13:08
Ven (I disagree on what to explain : flattening is hard, aye, but also containers (a bit less), and people are gonna get bit by hashes vs named params) 13:09
timotimo you mean the "foo" => 1 vs foo => 1 thing? 13:10
Ven yes
(should we warn on 'a' =>1 not parenthesized inside of arglists ?)
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timotimo that doesn't sound too bad 13:10
do we have support for # OK in rakudo? 13:11
Ven m: sub foo(*@a, *%b) { say @a.perl, %b.perl; }; foo(a => 1):b;
camelia rakudo-moar b46af8: OUTPUT«Array.new()("b" => Bool::True, "a" => 1).hash␤»
Ven yokatta
masak m: my @a = <> 13:12
camelia rakudo-moar b46af8: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/EtYRK57KMR␤Unsupported use of <>; in Perl 6 please use lines() to read input, ('') to represent a null string or () to represent an empty list␤at /tmp/EtYRK57KMR:1␤------> my @a = <…»
masak m: my @a = <> #OK
camelia rakudo-moar b46af8: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/o2IHxjS3kr␤Unsupported use of <>; in Perl 6 please use lines() to read input, ('') to represent a null string or () to represent an empty list␤at /tmp/o2IHxjS3kr:1␤------> my @a = <…»
masak hm. maybe that one is un-#OK-able...
hoelzro commut &
timotimo ('') instead of ''? 13:13
masak timotimo: think so.
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timotimo moritz: i got it now 13:15
Ven timotimo: does it not sound bad to warn, or to tell ppl to use parentheses ? 13:27
timotimo well, if you know what you're doing and prefer less parens, you should be able to silence the warning 13:30
lizmat cycling& 13:32
mathw o/ 13:33
timotimo there's no "asynchronous I/O" on the perl6.org/compilers/features matrix; should it be added? 13:35
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Ven .u Down Arrow 13:40
yoleaux U+02C5 MODIFIER LETTER DOWN ARROWHEAD [Sk] (˅)
U+02EF MODIFIER LETTER LOW DOWN ARROWHEAD [Sk] (˯)
U+1DFF COMBINING RIGHT ARROWHEAD AND DOWN ARROWHEAD BELOW [Mn] (◌᷿)
carlin .u STEAM LOCOMOTIVE 13:41
yoleaux U+1F682 STEAM LOCOMOTIVE [So] (🚂)
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timotimo does perl6.org/compilers/ look broken to anyone else? 14:00
moritz it does
carlin borders are missing 14:01
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timotimo i've been trying to fix it with the "inspect element" feature of chrome, but i couldn't get it fixed :( 14:01
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moritz it needs the col2 class 14:03
or maybe col1, dunno
but that's where the borders are defined
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moritz timotimo: the trick is to inspect the element that looks correct, and look where it gets the style from 14:03
timotimo yeah 14:04
i've tried
no luck
could it be that perl6.org isn't up to date with the latest data on github? 14:05
wait ... what was i looking at again?
www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6 - this wiki is deprecated, is it not? 14:07
moritz it is 14:12
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nwc10 is anyoneins a position to edit it to say that, and point to something more up to date? 14:12
timotimo i don't know what is considered the "more up to date replacement" 14:13
and i don't have an account there
and if someone does edit it, it'd be nice to replace the rss feed link for the planet to the new planeteria site 14:14
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dalek href="https://perl6.org:">perl6.org: c622c4b | (Timo Paulssen)++ | source/index.html:
planetsix.perl.org has been replaced by planeteria.

it currently is a redirect, but it may go away at some point.		 14:14
timotimo ^- see also
dalek href="https://perl6.org:">perl6.org: 66cf3ec | (Timo Paulssen)++ | source/getting-started/involved.html:
link to the new perl6 most wanted project
 14:17
atures: 8fa3f94 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | features.json:
rakudo-moar has time-based stuff nowadays.
 14:19
timotimo what stuff do the rakudo star msi files contain nowadays? is that still parrot only? 14:22
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FROGGS[mobile] I did a moar star once too 14:28
timotimo also, should we distribute the contents of perl6-examples with star?
FROGGS[mobile] dont think so
timotimo rakudo.org/downloads/star/ - not available here?
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timotimo FROGGS[mobile]: why not? 14:31
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timotimo i mean ... why bundle the perl6-book that hasn't seen commits in a long while but not actually working (not a guarantee) example scripts 14:33
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moritz because we have nothing better 14:36
timotimo well, i was only really asking why we shouldn't package the examples 14:37
not to throw out the book
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jnthn I don't have a problem with shipping examples, fwiw. Don't feel strongly either way on it. Knowing they're going into Star might encourage people to work on them more, which can't hurt. 14:43
As a data point, the various Microsoft languages have typically had examples you can install along with the tools/compiler. 14:44
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moritz we'd need to integrate them into the test suite 14:53
that is, test them
otherwise they'll bitrot, and hurt more than they help
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jnthn Hm, point. 14:55
Ven Just integrate the advent calendar code :P 14:56
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FROGGS__ timotimo: it was a release candidate IIRC, but as usual there was not a single tester 15:15
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FROGGS__ timotimo: yeah, I've got the 2014.04-moar.msi and 2014.04-parrot.msi on my disk 15:19
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FROGGS__ I am spectesting now against parrot-6.6.0, and when there is no regression, I'll bump the PARROT_REVISION 15:22
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timotimo moritz: do you have a good idea how to make the examples testable without having to chase down every change to an example with an equivalent change to a test description? 15:59
ideally, there'd be something like an "expected output" file for each example or something like that?
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timotimo does the update script for the feature comparison matrix have to be manually poked? 16:35
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moritz nope, it is cron'd 17:00
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dalek p: 883107f | (Tobias Leich)++ | tools/build/PARROT_REVISION:
require parrot 6.6.0
 17:22
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dalek kudo/nom: 04c2566 | (Tobias Leich)++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
bump nqp revision to get parrot 6.6.0

There is no spectest regression, but also no new passing todo.		 17:25
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hoelzro NQP doesn't support callsame and friends, does it? 17:36
I would like to override Routine.clone by calling Mu.clone and changing a few things
FROGGS__ hoelzro: looks at how callsame is implemented in rakudo
look* 17:37
timotimo hoelzro: nqp doesn't have multi-dispatch; i'm not sure if you can reach the superclasses method you're in
hoelzro =/
I'm guessing I could probably find a way to explicitly invoke Mu.clone 17:38
timotimo Mu.can('clone')(self:) or something like that? 17:39
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FROGGS__ I'd guess that findmethod might help... 17:41
timotimo mh, probably
FROGGS__ nqp::findmethod(Mu, 'clone')($invocant, ...) 17:42
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hoelzro perfect 17:46
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hoelzro thanks FROGGS__, timotimo 17:46
FROGGS__ does it actually work?
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hoelzro FROGGS__: I haven't tried it yet =/ 17:49
FROGGS__ ahh :o) 17:50
hoelzro I need to ask all of my Perl 6 questions now, because after I get home from work, no one's around =/
timotimo d'aaw
hoelzro well, I shouldn't say "no one"
FROGGS__ well, I'm here for another four hours or so
hoelzro there are people
but all of the compiler folk are gone
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hoelzro on the plus side, it has forced me to dive into some of the crazier parts of the compiler to figure things out =) 17:51
FROGGS__ yeah, that's how we spread the knowledge... we make it easy for europeans only :P
Ven good :D 17:52
hoelzro heh
I had the good fortune to be living in the NL when that NQP workshop happened!
FROGGS__ yeah, that workshop was awesome :o) 17:53
hoelzro indeed! 17:54
I need to remember that beer Jens had me drink on the first night
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Ven Well, I guess it's time to talk 'bout the one devil ... to talk about regexps :P 18:03
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Ven github.com/Nami-Doc/learnxinyminut...l.markdown <- comments are pretty ugh :( 18:07
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lizmat Ven: re "my @array = <a b c>; # array of string, delimited by space", perhaps better as 'array of words' ? 18:09
Ven lizmat: fixed :)
lizmat as the w in qw stands for word, and possibly the w in %w in ruby as well ?
oki 18:10
Ven I sometimes write stuff while really, really tired, so even if I know what I want to explain, it can end up ... kinda weird :P
lizmat "# Arrays are 0-indexed" since this is a bit for beginners, maybe: "Array indices start at 0" ?
Ven guess I'll tackle regexps next -- In the spirit of the perl5 book 18:11
lizmat: fixed :)
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Ven ty~. I was actually afraid it was really a concept of stuff packed in there, but after sending it to 3 friends (with no p6 experience, that is) they all told me it was fine (and that they wanted to read about regexps :P) 18:12
timotimo cool! :) 18:13
btyler Ven: some typos: 'taht' on line 87, 'for array {' (no sigil) on line 192 18:19
Ven btyler: thanks, fixed 18:20
btyler (also, this is great!) 18:21
masak yay, my YAPC::EU talk was accept'd! \o/ 18:23
FROGGS__ masak: what is the topi?
topic*
jnthn Probably something controversial, knowing masak... :P 18:24
FROGGS__ *g*
masak "GOTO considered awesome" :P
FROGGS__ ahh, yeah :o)
masak not controversial at all...
FROGGS__ nice title btw 18:25
masak heh, thanks -- it was a title that wanted a talk under it ;)
FROGGS__ yeah
Ulti www.reddit.com/user/carlosdelreyits educatedpoo but more agressive and FUD spready
* www.reddit.com/user/carlosdelrey 18:26
masak poor fellow, with nothing better to do :/ 18:27
Ulti well at least on that sock puppet account 18:28
jnthn At least he didn't go for Carlos Danger :P 18:29
lizmat is not going to waste any cycles on this Carlos wimp
oO( shite, now I did :-( )
Ulti might be worth some level of response since they are posting on /r/programming where people aren't necessarily aware of what is going on inside Perl 18:30
lizmat moritz: please cleanse the log of the mention of this URL :-)
Ulti yeah cleanse the logs on my computer and everyone else keeping private logs 18:31
timotimo it's kinda sad that this person seems to feel personally wronged by The Perl 6 Community 18:32
Ven why would it matter :D ? 18:33
"#perl6 is full of in-jokes by a weird crowd of drinkers who abuse other people" I've certainly been abused here. Abusing, rather. :P 18:34
timotimo i think "verbal abuse" was meant by that person 18:35
not "convinced to contribute"
geekosaur I wonder how much splash perl6 gets from perl5 18:36
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timotimo "splash" in what sense? 18:37
geekosaur is increasingly convinced that, to the extent that perl 5 is "dying", it's down to the community being dominated by people who have bad attitudes
timotimo i only know the term "splash damage"
colomon is kind of awed by that link 18:38
geekosaur yes, splash damage. too easy to assume that, because of perlmonkhole-ish behavior in the perl 5 community, the perl 6 community must have the same problem 18:39
Ven it's funny how this guy is convinced that drinking beers makes people unable to work :D 18:40
I've read like, 20 of his posts, and they all talk 'bout beer. Probably a bad experience ...
Ulti it would be less funny if it wasnt just used
as FUD
Ven www.reddit.com/r/perl6/comments/293...ng/ciiutu7 <3 just look at it 18:41
Ulti Ven its just an easy and true target to discredit devs
Ven you misspelled the work "bullshit" here ;)
Ulti many people in the US have hugely differing attitude towards alcohol consumption than they do in europe
Ulti might have been in the US for the last two weeks and is getting tired of showing his passport for a "lite beer" 18:42
Ven oh, I believe it. But calling people on that all the time doesn't even start to make sense.
Ulti sure it does because he is assuming a slightly different audience is seeing the FUD post each time.. that isnt a real user its just someone pumping FUD at anyone who might even think about using Perl6 18:43
all of the carlosdelray and educatedpoo posts are incredibly well designed
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Ulti including the persona of a bioinformatician which is a stronghold of perl users 18:44
timotimo throw enough poo until something sticks.
Ulti and academics are far more likely to experiment with language use
timotimo poon intended.
lizmat Ven: maybe add "%hash<key1 key2>; # or slice out multiple values in one go" after "%hash<key2>; # if it's a string, you can actually use <>" 18:45
Ven m: my %a = a => 1, b => 2; say %a{('a')}.perl
camelia rakudo-moar b46af8: OUTPUT«1␤»
lizmat since you've shown multiple words in <a b c> above
Ven m: my %a = a => 1, b => 2; say %a{('a',)}.perl
camelia rakudo-moar b46af8: OUTPUT«(1,)␤»
lizmat Parcel gives a Parcel, that's logical, isn't it ? 18:46
jnthn Yeah. While we may call then parentheses cells, it's actually infix:<,> that forms them. 18:47
lizmat slightly less logical maybe: 18:48
m: my @a=<a>; my %h = a => 1; say %h{@a}.WHAT # Array gives Parcel
camelia rakudo-moar 04c256: OUTPUT«(Parcel)␤»
masak [Coke]: thinking about merging (open) rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=58922 with (rejected) rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=122286 18:50
er, other way around.
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Ven well, it was a fun read. 18:54
Good thing I'm a hipster, else I wouldn't like being around beer-lovers so much. 18:55
(after I did my talk where I said I used p6 in prod, several people went up to me and asked me what for, eh.)
[Coke] masak: don't merge them, but make them refer to each other. 18:56
"hang" is not an acceptable behavior, regardless of the spec, IMO
masak I agree, but (a) it's always been like that, and (b) since the spec doesn't say what the behavior should be, the behavior isn't "not acceptable", it's *undefined*. 18:57
Ven "Perl 6.0.0 (Octoberish 2002)" still, it's kinda funny :P 18:58
masak the linked-to specs issue sums up our total thinking on the issues pretty well, actually.
[Coke] ... then the spec tests are wrong.
don't close/reject the ticket if you are not also removing the spectests. 18:59
masak *nod*
not doing anything for now.
[Coke] (I suppose we could refer to the spec ticket that was opened instead of the RT: that's fine.)
(and then close out hte RTs - that works)
tgt Hi. Is it possible to lazily zip together lazy lists? 19:00
masak m: my $foo = { a => 42 }; $foo<b> = $foo; say ~$foo
timotimo hm, Z, is not lazy?
camelia rakudo-moar 04c256: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
masak [Coke]: seems prefix:<~> hangs, too.
so, not just .perl
timotimo: yes, it is. 19:01
timotimo m: my @a := 1, 2, 4 ... *; my @b := 10, 11, 12 ... *; my @c := @a Z, @b; say @c[^10].perl
camelia rakudo-moar 04c256: OUTPUT«((1, 10), (2, 11), (4, 12), (8, 13), (16, 14), (32, 15), (64, 16), (128, 17), (256, 18), (512, 19))␤»
timotimo yeah, that works, tgt -^
the important part is to := into @vars, because using = will do assignment, which is eager 19:02
tgt Yeah, that was the issue, thank you.
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tgt ooc is that a more up-to-date version of github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/docs/ROADMAP ? 19:03
Ven I really have fun when I read "perl 6 sucks because it's a spec". I guess no language with specs is good ._.
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timotimo raw.githubusercontent.com/perl6/pe...-list.json WTF is up with that 19:04
retupmoca: should the prl6-most-wanted still list your zlib binding as "WIP"? 19:06
FROGGS__: you were the one who added support to retupmoca's p6-compress-zlib to make .tar.gz work, right? 19:07
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FROGGS__ timotimo: there is a new Archive::Tar module 19:07
timotimo FROGGS__: also, modules.md has a "Tar" under "Data Formats" -> "Archives" which may want a link to your module
lizmat Ven: the line "map({ $_ + 3 }, @array);", maybe prefix with "my @arrayplus3 ="
using map just for its side-effects is considered dubious 19:08
timotimo aye.
lizmat and just like that, the line doesn't make much sense
jnthn That line doesn't have side-effects, besides spending CPU cycles. 19:09
lizmat yes, that's why it doesn't make sense :-) 19:10
dalek rl6-most-wanted: b7e18fc | (Tobias Leich)++ | most-wanted/modules.md:
add link to Archive::Tar
timotimo the networking -> http section may want updating for sergot's excellent gsoc work 19:11
FROGGS__ timotimo: with a note that portability is an issue atm 19:13
timotimo oh? because it uses "is native('libopenssl.so')" or something like that? 19:14
FROGGS__ it uses unix sockets 19:16
timotimo oh
yeah, that's a bit of a problem
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timotimo FROGGS__: would you like to normalise "Games::BubbleBreaker" to "Game::BubbleBreaker" or is there a reason for masak to change his Crypt to be "Games::Crypt"? 19:18
FROGGS__ hmmm
I can normalize it, aye
timotimo i'm thinking about adding a bit of code and a bit of metadata to the modules.perl6.org page so that it can show categories above the list and have a little description for each 19:19
FROGGS__ I'll do it when it works "again" (hoorey nativecast!)
timotimo cool :)
and also: github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/issues/11 19:20
dalek ast: 6afc4ee | (David Warring [email@hidden.address] | integration/advent2011-day2 (2 files):
adding 2011 advent days 22 and 23
 19:21
timotimo dwarring++ :) 19:22
FROGGS__ eww, I wonder how #11 could be done
timotimo even if it's hacky at first, we need something like that at some point.
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FROGGS__ timotimo: I'd need a use case... (a C lib that exposes such globals) 19:31
because I only know about SDL and there are none AFAIK
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PerlJam FROGGS__: um ... libc exposes errno :) 19:38
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FROGGS__ I see 19:38
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retupmoca timotimo: re most-wanted: depends on what the rules are for the WIP tag 19:43
timotimo: I'm not actively working on it at this point
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retupmoca so the WIP can probably be removed 19:43
Ven it looks like github messed up the local edit view of the file since I switched to perl5 highlighting ... 19:44
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Ven lizmat: fixed. I also just realized I'm not talking about implicit return 19:46
itz_ books sofia for himself and virtualsue 19:48
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Ven ah, but I'm a bind now. 19:49
I explain subroutines before `for` and other control flow structures.
lizmat well, that's all part of the 4 types of variables 19:50
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Ven m: say (sub { if True { 5 } })().perl 19:50
camelia rakudo-moar 04c256: OUTPUT«5␤»
Ven m: say (sub { for ^5 { 5 } })().perl
camelia rakudo-moar 04c256: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
Ven m: say (sub { given 1 { 5 when 1; } })().perl
camelia rakudo-moar 04c256: OUTPUT«5␤»
Ven uh oh. 19:51
lizmat do for ?
Ven yes. but I thought I needed do given, as well
Is gather/take the same ?
lizmat m: say (sub { do for ^5 { 5 } })().perl 19:52
camelia rakudo-moar 04c256: OUTPUT«(5, 5, 5, 5, 5).list␤»
Ven yes, I know that. I mean -- I thought if and given would not return either unless I used do
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lizmat m: say (sub { if False { 5 } })().perl 19:53
camelia rakudo-moar 04c256: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
Ven Well, it really is true what they say : you learn more doing a tutorial than your readers ;)
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lizmat because if True, then 5 is the last expression 19:53
if False, then the if is the last "expression" 19:54
Ven mmmh.
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lizmat is looking at the precomp rules in Makefiles 19:54
Ven m: (sub { gather { take 1; take 2; } })().perl
camelia ( no output )
Ven m: (sub { do gather { take 1; take 2; } })().perl
camelia ( no output )
lizmat is there a reason that lib/Test.pm is compiled into lib 19:55
and lib/lib.pm6 is compiled into blib ?
shouldn't they both be compiled into lib or blib?
moritz, FROGGS[mobile], jnthn: opinions? ^^^
Ven m: (sub { gather for ^1 { take 1; take 2; } })().perl 19:56
camelia ( no output )
Ven m: (sub { do gather for ^1 { take 1; take 2; } })().perl
camelia ( no output )
Ven I'm really just too dumb for that ._.
FROGGS__ lizmat: I don't know of any reason for that weird setup
jnthn lizmat: For Test.pm, because -Ilib is used (or I think the env var) 19:57
lizmat: So it wants to be there for sanity and spec tests to find it
Ven m: (sub { my @a = gather for ^3 { take 1; take 2; }; @a })().perl
camelia ( no output )
jnthn Not sure why we have blib though...the convention so far has been to put pre-compiled things alongside their source...
Ven: "say"?
Ven jnthn: oooh. repl habit >_>
lizmat jnthn: that's what I thought
Ven thanks. I couldn't quite understand what the heck was going on >> 19:58
lizmat ok, first going to fix and spectest that
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Ven is it only looping constructs that don't return values ? 19:59
jnthn lizmat: Make sure to update the make install target to copy lib.moarvm from lib instead of blib, if you move it
lizmat will do
Ven well, gather *is* listed in S04 as being a do-with-continuations, so it makes sense.
jnthn Ven: Yeah. We had them doing so and people ended up with epic performance bugs.
Ven jnthn: yeah, coffee users hit the same wall quite a lot 20:00
(so it's one of the first thing I tried back then). Ok, so, loop, while, and for. Will note, ty !
jnthn Folks think of "for" too imperatively for it to really work out to make an unadorned one functional.
Ven (ruby gets away with it because .each just returns this, eh.) 20:01
masak note that `for` doesn't give values on the statement level, but *does* if put in parens as an expression.
Ven Now to put that in words ... 20:02
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jnthn Yes, that's one of the way so adorn it :) 20:02
*to
Ven masak: I can't say "if it's statement-level-y, it won't return",though :P
jnthn There's not really an -y here 20:03
masak Ven: I would have it as "if you put it in parens, the `for` can be used as a list comprehension"
jnthn Or if there is, I'm surprised, 'cus I'm pretty sure when I impl'd it I made it have to be directly at statement level :)
Ven jnthn: I mean "control flow structures" in general -- not just for 20:04
PerlJam masak: "What's a list comprehension?" ;)
Ven masak: I'm trying to explain the exception to the "return" rule
and also, "list comprehension" is indeed something that I don't think fits correctly,for this reason :
masak PerlJam: :)
Ven m: say (sub { do for ^3 { do for ^3 { 5 } } })().perl 20:05
camelia rakudo-moar 04c256: OUTPUT«(5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5).list␤»
PerlJam Ven: I think looking at it as an "exception" is the problem. It's not an exception really.
Ven oh, actually, I guess I'm okay with that. Flattening
PerlJam: why not ?
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PerlJam Ven: because it's not an exception, it's the rule. Things used as expressions act as expressions. Things used as statements act as statements. Statements never "return a value" 20:10
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Ven PerlJam: so why is the If not a statement ? 20:10
what you're telling me is that only loops are statements ?
masak m: sub foo { if Bool.pick { 5 } else { 42 } }; say foo 20:11
camelia rakudo-moar 04c256: OUTPUT«42␤»
PerlJam Ven: if *is* statement, why do you think it's not? 20:13
jnthn PerlJam: masak just showed it returning a value :)
Ven PerlJam: because by your definition, if it were a statement, it should not return, right ?
jnthn I see loops as being an exception, fwiw.
Ven alright, I'm not crazy then :P.
PerlJam jnthn: no, the if didn't "return a value", the last expression evaluated did :)
jnthn PerlJam: Yes, but if you put a for as the last statement, you ain't getting a value back... 20:14
PerlJam Ven: that's okay, I often think I am crazy, so maybe there's some truth to it ;)
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masak PerlJam: there's no "the last expression evaluated" semantics. 20:16
PerlJam: if statements are transparent to returning stuff; for statements aren't. in that sense, loops are an exception.
PerlJam ah well, perhaps so. 20:17
Ven got it right (kinda), for once. 20:18
Well, "performance reasons" are still something to take care of.
PerlJam Ven++
Ven PerlJam++ # craziness !
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Ven looks like I did a copy-paste fail and lost what I wrote about that. Whoopsie 20:22
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timotimo always be writing in an editor with infinite undo 20:22
and, if possible, persistent undo
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btyler branching tree undo as well 20:25
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timotimo aye, but that's for advanced people 20:26
i still didn't grok that feature of vim; i should get that undotree plugin
Ven just spam u :P 20:27
Infinite undo ? I have that, it's ctrl-z :P
lizmat u xx Inf
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Ven 55u 20:28
#undo my whole day
lizmat first commit, then undo :-) 20:29
btyler timotimo: yes. I use gundo, and it has changed the way I work
timotimo oh, sjl 20:30
that's a "seal of quality" :)
btyler being able to hop to any atomic change I've made in a file for the last (however long I haven't moved/renamed it) is incredible
timotimo can you also extract a change as a unified diff and cherry-pick it to somewhere else or something like that?
btyler gundo presents the diffs as you scroll through the branches of the history tree, yeah 20:31
timotimo sweet
btyler there's probably a fancy way to apply just that change, which I should look into
timotimo bleh, the screenr for that plugin doesn't seem to want to load on my machine 20:32
damn you, adobe flash player
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dalek kudo/nom: 1372dc9 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | tools/build/Makefile- (2 files):
Normalize location for storing precomped files

A mix of lib/blib was being used in JVM and Moar. Parrot was clean in that respect.		 20:43
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timotimo do we have to push some button to make perl6.org/compilers/features refresh? 20:51
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carlin moritz said a cron does it 20:52
timotimo ah, i must have missed that message 20:53
good.
carlin irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-07-16#i_9033803
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timotimo ah! 20:55
thank you :)
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lizmat hmmm... it appears that the parrot Makefile install target copies the source files like lib/Test.pm to the destination dir 20:57
but the JVM and MoarVM install targets do not
vendethiel can I ... ? 20:58
.u ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
yoleaux U+0020 SPACE [Zs] ( )
U+0028 LEFT PARENTHESIS [Ps] (()
U+0029 RIGHT PARENTHESIS [Pe] ())
dalek kudo-star-daily: 6000466 | coke++ | log/ (13 files):
today (automated commit)
rl6-roast-data: 5fc3351 | coke++ | / (4 files):
today (automated commit)
vendethiel .u ͡° ͜ʖ
yoleaux U+0020 SPACE [Zs] ( )
U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN [So] (°)
U+0296 LATIN LETTER INVERTED GLOTTAL STOP [Ll] (ʖ)
lizmat jnthn, moritz, FROGGS[mobile] : any opinion about the install target question ^^^ ? 21:00
jnthn I'd have expected Test.pm to be installed 21:01
FROGGS__ the same
lizmat ok, then I will make that happen 21:02
FROGGS__ lizmat++
[Coke] rakudo.moar had a clean spectest run today. 21:04
no change in parrot, but it's failing 17 tests. 21:05
jvm failing 21, though several of them seem to fail randomly depending on the phase of the moon.
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dalek kudo/nom: 9e15cc8 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | tools/build/Makefile- (2 files):
Make JVM and Moar also install source files

Parrot was, consensus is they should be		 21:09
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carlin I think there's some code in Temporal that can adjust the phase of the moon, might fix those JVM failures :p 21:11
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lizmat there is, but it depends on rand 21:13
:-(
masak what slander... :)
vendethiel gather, take, start, winner ... are these "constructs" ? 21:14
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masak statement forms? 21:15
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lizmat m: my %h = a => <b c>, b => <e f>; say %h.values.flat.perl # sort of expect <b c e f> on this 21:28
camelia rakudo-moar 04c256: OUTPUT«($("b", "c"), $("e", "f")).list␤»
lizmat shouldn't the .flat flatten the values ?
jnthn .flat doesn't mean "descend into containerized things recursively", it means "flatten away any Parcels" 21:29
masak m: my %h = a => <b c>, b => <e f>; say %h.values.perl 21:30
camelia rakudo-moar 04c256: OUTPUT«($("b", "c"), $("e", "f")).list␤»
lizmat m: my %h = a => <b c>, b => <e f>; say %h.values.map(*.flat).perl # so this wat
camelia rakudo-moar 04c256: OUTPUT«("b", "c", "e", "f").list␤»
jnthn m: my %h = a => <b c>, b => <e f>; say %h.values>>.flat.perl
camelia rakudo-moar 04c256: OUTPUT«(("b", "c").list, ("e", "f").list)␤»
lizmat *way
jnthn yeah
masak wonderful typo ;)
jnthn yeah, I was gonna say
lizmat yes, I thought I'd mention the typo :-)
jnthn I dunno how far it helps, but my mental model of flattening has it as inseperable from scalar containers.
I think the two must be seen together. 21:31
Scalar = won't flatten
And we know a Hash has values that are scalars.
Provided you're assigning to it, anyways. 21:32
lizmat ok, will try to get that model into my head :-)
ren1us j: say "test" 21:33
camelia rakudo-jvm 1372dc: OUTPUT«test␤»
ren1us that's interesting
i just /msg'd it to her and got htis
(17:32:44) <camelia> rakudo-jvm 1372dc: OUTPUT«Error while reading '/home/p6eval_eval/p6eval-token': No such file or directory at /home/p6eval/jvm-rakudo/eval-client.pl line 10.␤»
jnthn I'm kinda trying to reverse-engineer my mental model of containers/flattening so I can work out why I don't find it anything like so confusing as many folks seem to. :)
carlin I think that means camelia is rebuilding rakudo
hoelzro jnthn: I used to be confused by it, but now I find it rather intuitive 21:35
but, like intuition, I cannot explain it well =/
jnthn *nod* 21:37
hoelzro what's the best way to check if two objects are identical (other than $^a.WHERE == $^b.WHERE)? =:= ? 21:39
masak === 21:40
hoelzro ah, thanks masak
that's one thing I'm still working on =)
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[Coke] (containers, flattening, lists) evil, pure and simple, from the 8th dimension. 21:44
ren1us very weird question. given that i'm trying to be a little less useless, if i wanted to go digging through to try and hunt down and, in theory, find a fix for this, where would i start?
m: class A{}; my $a = A.new; my $ref = $a.WHERE; my $bogus = False; for ^10000 { if $ref ne $a.WHERE { $bogus = True; }; }; say $bogus; 21:45
camelia rakudo-moar 1372dc: OUTPUT«True␤»
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hoelzro ren1us: is that mokudo-only? 21:48
ren1us well, niecza just crashes because it doesn't know that WHERE exists, but yeah
parrot and jvm are fine
hoelzro I figured
ren1us: you might want to bring that up in #moarvm 21:49
but that might be ok behavior
because the GC is free to move things around, iirc
ren1us i've been fighting with it because it makes it really difficult to have object keys in a hash
hoelzro ooooo 21:50
that is definitely interesting
I hadn't thought of that
ren1us my workaround is to override .WHICH and try to maintain uniqueness by holding onto the initial .WHERE value in an attribute 21:51
masak IMHO, the hashing of an object should be distinct from its location in memory. for exactly the reason you mention: predictability of keys in keyed data structures. 21:52
or, put differently, keyed data structures shouldn't be affected by what GC the VM runs -- and if they are, that's a bug.
dalek ast: 2f5ad58 | (David Warring [email@hidden.address] | S04-statements/for.t:
Added list comprehension test.

Spec: github.com/perl6/specs/blob/master...statements		 21:53
hoelzro masak: agreed, .WHERE happens to be a fairly good default, though
or so we all thought...
masak it works if the GC doesn't copy things. which it's perfectly in its right to do. 21:54
so I guess it's the assumption that .WHERE is always a good hash (for entity objects) that's suspect. 21:55
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hoelzro right 21:56
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masak 'night, #perl6 21:57
ren1us this is absolutely a noobfix, but what about just keeping an in incrementing object counter and hand each newly created object its count? it holds no significant meaning, but remains unique and unchanging.
hoelzro nigth masak 22:02
night, even
ren1us: I would bring this up in #moarvm
even though there's a strong overlap between the two channels =)
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lizmat sleep and commute to Portland, OR & 23:44
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