»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 25 June 2013.
TimToady will try it again with inlining disabled 00:01
anyway, this is also on an I7, so we're not being shabby :) 00:03
hmm, actually, it ran faster with inlining disabled, so I'm confused 00:06
assuming MVM_SPESH_INLINE_DISABLE=1 time b2b3b is the correct incantation 00:07
jnthn Hm, weird. 00:09
TimToady maybe some distortion from inserting instrumentation 00:13
jnthn Mebbe
TimToady it was only slightly faster, and I do have that bogus loop that only runs once each time through the outer looop
fixing that, and retiming
jnthn I did spot some rather weird deopts going on the other day when fixing the OSR bug, which I still need to look into. 00:14
TimToady but I rather suspect my 9 minutes was the JVM number 00:15
jnthn OK.
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TimToady huh, taking out the inner loop added 10 seconds o.O 00:18
jnthn o.O 00:19
TimToady 4:47 to 4:58
trying the disabled inline version again without the loop, just for kicks 00:20
TimToady wonders if he keeps reporting timings every five minutes, he can keep jnthn++ up all night... 00:21
00:22 Psyche^ left
colomon go go go! 00:23
TimToady now slower with inline disabled, 5:04 00:24
though this time I uttered: time (MVM_SPESH_INLINE_DISABLE=1 ./b2b3b) 00:25
so as to use the shell timer rather than /usr/bin/time 00:26
maybe that does something weird
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BenGoldberg If your test program is single-threaded, and if your computer is multi-cored, then you should be able to time a few different variations at once, without them interfering with one another. 00:28
[Coke] m: use Test; try { try { die 'qwerty'} ; say ~$!; die }; say $!;
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«qwerty␤␤ in block at /tmp/5fkXk0S2J0:1␤␤»
[Coke] we have a test that expects that second usage of $! to have qwerty in it. 00:29
00:29 figoe left
BenGoldberg m: use Test; try { try { die 'qwerty'} ; say ~$!; die ~$! }; say $!; 00:30
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«qwerty␤qwerty␤ in block at /tmp/xxrMqArP8c:1␤␤»
BenGoldberg m: use Test; try { try { die 'qwerty'} ; say ~$!; die $! }; say $!;
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«qwerty␤qwerty␤ in block at /tmp/bjpTjQZ_NA:1␤ in block at /tmp/bjpTjQZ_NA:1␤␤»
TimToady updated the RC entry to avoid the loop
BenGoldberg [Coke], What is 'die' supposed to do when not given any args? 00:31
TimToady in p5 it uses "Died" for the message
[Coke] test says: 00:32
die; # use the default argument
TimToady m: die
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«␤ in block at /tmp/R6AwNcpnQr:1␤␤»
BenGoldberg p56: die
camelia p5-to-p6 : OUTPUT«die␤»
00:33 Alina-malina joined
BenGoldberg m: use Test; try { try { die 'qwerty'} ; say ~$!; die $_ }; say $!; 00:33
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«qwerty␤use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context in block at /tmp/ELgL8teQhc:1␤␤use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context in block at /tmp/ELgL8teQhc:1␤␤␤ in block at /tmp/ELgL8teQhc:1␤␤»
TimToady eval: die; # do we have this one currently?
jnthn Well, the summer heat is doing a fairly good job of keeping me awake...
BenGoldberg m: die $_
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context in block at /tmp/X_jC_qlE9u:1␤␤Error while creating error string: No exception handler located for warn␤»
jnthn ...what? 00:34
TimToady maybe it should just asy "Confused" :) 00:35
*say
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lue "Insulting programmer detected in block ..." 00:37
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TimToady mabye ti sluohd jsut asy "Cufsenod" 00:39
jnthn :P
jnthn goes to try and rest 00:40
TimToady o/
jnthn Should have more time again for Perl 6 things soon :)
o/
TimToady oh, removing the *.base(3) makes it faster again
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TimToady so maybe it's the extra map and closure 00:40
BenGoldberg n: die; 00:41
camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Died␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1536 (die @ 5) ␤ at /tmp/SaZx9WvbdC line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4595 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line…»
BenGoldberg "Died" just like p5 00:42
TimToady plus the map was disabling the for-range optimization 00:43
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carlin masak: $real-life interfered, but am still hunting 00:44
[Coke] ok, removing test. 00:45
dalek ast: 4aab931 | coke++ | S02-types/compact.t:
use standard "NYI"
 00:46
ast: 6600ef0 | coke++ | S02-magicals/dollar_bang.t:
Remove incorrect test

die with no args does NOT reuse $!
BenGoldberg rn: try { die }; say $!.perl
camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«"Died"␤»
..rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 6cc807: OUTPUT«X::AdHoc.new(payload => "")␤»
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lue I almost want to say that arg-less &die should generate a warning, or maybe die with an appropriate message :) . 00:48
[Coke] m: say ( 1 ^^ 42 ).perl 00:50
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
BenGoldberg arg-less die should warn that the behavior of arg-less die is not yet specced ;)
TimToady could usefully say "Died ($! was 'such and so')" when $! is set
[Coke] ^^ should that be False?
n: say ( 1 ^^ 42 ).perl 00:51
camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object␤ at Niecza.StashCursor.Core (System.String key, Boolean final, Niecza.StashCursor& sc, Niecza.Variable& v, Niecza.Variable bind_to) [0x00000] i…»
TimToady given that it's trying to return one or the other, I think Nil makes sense
(and is false)
[Coke] updating test... 00:52
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TimToady m: say [^^] 0,0,42 00:53
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«42␤»
TimToady m: say [^^] 0,1,42
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
TimToady m: say [^^] 3,1,42
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
TimToady n: say Nil.perl 00:54
camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
TimToady m: say 1 ^^ 42
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
TimToady odd
m: say (1 ^^ 42).defined 00:55
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«False␤»
dalek ast: fe656e4 | coke++ | S03-operators/short-circuit.t:
fix expected return type:

20:51 < TimToady> given that it's trying to return one or the other, I think Nil makes sense
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[Coke] m: say ( 7 ^^ 7 ).WHAT 00:57
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
TimToady otoh, maybe it should return () 00:58
since it's specced to do that in list context
and Nil doesn't make () anymore
well, isn't supposed to
m: say ( 7 ^^ 8 ).list.perl 00:59
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«().list␤»
TimToady m: say Nil.list.perl
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«().list␤»
TimToady that's probably a bug
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dalek ast: 9766670 | coke++ | S03-operators/short-circuit.t:
fix expected return type:

20:51 < TimToady> given that it's trying to return one or the other, I think Nil makes sense
  ... is what TimToady said about the first one. "close enough!"		 00:59
TimToady m: say ()[0].perl
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
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[Coke] m: Mu ~~ 0 01:05
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding <anon>; expected 'Any' but got 'Mu'␤ in method ACCEPTS at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:1480␤ in block at /tmp/G1dWK8MLkP:1␤␤»
[Coke] ^^ tests expect this to work.
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TimToady offhand, don't see a good reason why it shoudn't 01:06
m: Mu ~~ Junction
camelia ( no output )
TimToady just needs to have an ACCEPTS Mu and then rejects it :) 01:07
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TimToady ACCEPTS that accepts Mu* 01:07
m: Mu ~~ 'foo'
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding <anon>; expected 'Any' but got 'Mu'␤ in method ACCEPTS at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:1480␤ in block at /tmp/1hGHK6byNI:1␤␤»
TimToady that too
unless people are expecting junctions to autothread on the left, and I don't think they should 01:08
m: say 1 | 2 ~~ Junction 01:09
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«True␤»
TimToady m: Mu ~~ Int
camelia ( no output )
TimToady so it's just the :D case
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dalek ecs: 533c76b | TimToady++ | S03-operators.pod:
make ^^ return Nil on too many trues
 01:12
TimToady that might change again, as we force Nil to not produce () in list context 01:14
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TimToady if list comprehensions are depending on that behavior of Nil 01:14
dalek ast: 0c689b3 | coke++ | S03-smartmatch/any- (2 files):
mark some tests for RT #122395
 01:15
synopsebot Link: rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Displa...?id=122395
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TimToady would be funny if all our logical operators had to return () for false, but maybe they do, since 'if' is really just an 'and' in disguise 01:17
must cogitate on that smore 01:18
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Mouq m: say(1;2) # wtf 02:12
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«12␤»
Mouq m: say(my $a = 42; ' ';$a = 15)
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«15 15␤»
Mouq Why.
std: say(my $a = 42; ' ';$a = 15) 02:13
camelia std 0f2049c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 125m␤»
Mouq TimToady: Should this be illegal?
m: say((my $a = 42; ' ';$a = 15)) 02:14
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«WARNINGS:␤Useless use of constant string " " in sink context (line 1)␤15␤»
BenGoldberg n: say(my $a = 42; ' ';$a = 15); 02:15
camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Slicel lists are NYI at /tmp/Uvbc4gXmBm line 1:␤------> say(my $a = 42; ' ';$a = 15)⏏;␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1502 (die…»
ventica Can we create a "Try Perl6" page using Rakudo on JVM... like this page for Arc?: tryarc.org/ 02:22
BenGoldberg A java applet with a jakudo REPL would be cool :) 02:23
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hoelzro Try Perl 6 would be awesome 02:31
BenGoldberg The tryarc.org page uses ajax to send the user's typed-in code to the web server. 02:32
hoelzro I'm still hoping that the JS backend matures
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TimToady std: say( $_ for 1..10 ) 02:43
camelia std 0f2049c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse argument list at /tmp/HY9zRL6JzR line 1:␤------> say⏏( $_ for 1..10 )␤Couldn't find final ')'; gave up at /tmp/HY9zRL6JzR line 1:␤------> say( $_ ⏏for 1..10 )␤Parse…»
TimToady at least that's illegal
hoelzro if anyone's interested, I made a gist on some ideas/questions I had about the Perl 6 language: gist.github.com/hoelzro/71b65aec6cdc2574da60 02:45
TimToady I would consider all those to be declarations 02:47
but generally people would use the #= form on parameters and return values
hoelzro TimToady: thanks for taking the time to look! should you even be reading right now? =) 02:48
TimToady and yes, they're intended to merge
this particular makes sense for the #| form
*ly
which is likely to be a paragraph 02:49
the problem with advanced filehandle options is that some VMs make it really hard
hoelzro alright, good to see that my thinking was right on that
hoelzro .oO( and that I don't have to change the implementation... ) 02:50
ah ha
TimToady we should probably provide such facilities with warnings that they may not be portable
hoelzro maybe instead of including them within the language itself, there could be third party modules that only work on particular VMs? 02:51
TimToady or that, but you'd like things to be portable by feature, and not by "use MyOS;"
hoelzro use IO::Dup; or something could provide a candidate for open(IO::Handle) 02:52
TimToady right
hoelzro but would IO::Dup be provided with the interpreter? or by a third party lib?
or does it matter?
TimToady well, it only matters what names we make available by default; whether something gets pulled in on first use should in many cases be transparent 02:53
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TimToady of course, there are the features like "augment" that we require them to also declare monkey business of some sort 02:54
there may also be some features that can be emulated, but sometimes emulations are partial 02:55
see 'fork' for P5 on Windows for instance
hoelzro that was the exact example I'd thought of =) 02:56
TimToady or maybe can emulate it, but it runs 10000 times slower
at what point does performance become part of the API?
and it's okay for me to read in moderation, so irc seems fine 02:57
it's the backlog that gets tiresome to my eyes 02:58
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hoelzro good thing I caught you now, then! 02:58
TimToady otoh, I'm kinda the only person who is not allowed to declare backlog bankrupcy :)
hoelzro =) 02:59
TimToady actually, at the moment I'm only in arrears on July 16-21 03:00
and only in #perl6, I already caught up in #moarvm 03:01
hoelzro well, it's not going anywhere! 03:04
TimToady that's what people have been saying for years :) 03:05
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TimToady in a year or so, I'd like to buy a big billboard in the middle of silicon valley that says "Perl 6 lives. You were wrong." :) 03:09
hoelzro hehe 03:10
TimToady or just photoshop one and let it go viral :)
hoelzro I think I've been a regular for 2 years now
like, as of tomorrow
it's amazing how much it's progressed
TimToady happy anniverserary 03:11
hoelzro thanks!
I just hope that others like it as much as I do!
although that won't stop *me* from writing it
TimToady it's the most gratifying thing to continue to see new participants, to make up for all those developers dropping like flies along the way :) 03:12
hoelzro =)
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[Coke] TimToady++ 03:13
TimToady well, you're obviously from hardier stock :) 03:14
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TimToady maybe some hobbit ancestry :) 03:15
I obviously have some, since my toes are hairy, I love mushrooms, and I'm hard to kill off... 03:16
historian: Please s/some/some hobbit ancestry/ if you're putting me into a quotes file someday. Pray omit the brackets. 03:18
actually, if I'm to recapitulate Tolkien, I should wait about ten years, and then "Perl 6 lives!" will appear as grafitti in a New York subway. 03:20
[Coke] dd 03:27
hoelzro Cannot make changes, 'modifiable' is off 03:28
TimToady 0+0 records in 03:32
0+0 records out
0 bytes (0 B) copied, 2.17737 s, 0.0 kB/s
hoelzro and now we see which 'dd' [Coke] wanted =) 03:33
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btyler are bindings meant to evaporate after a statement is completed in the repl? "my @foo = 1 .. 5; <enter>" --> 1 .. 5 "@foo; <enter>" --> nothing 03:37
the variable is declared in scope, but there's nothing there anymore
sorry, my @foo := 1 .. 5;
TimToady looks like a bug to me 03:42
at some point the current REPL needs to be scrapped and integrated correctly with the compiler so that we know when multi-line constructs are being entered, and when we can just continue the compilation from line to line. 03:44
at that point I think a lot of these issues will go away
in fact, that's why there's a line in STD.pm6's ws that reads: | $ { $¢.moreinput } 03:47
btyler hmmm. that would be really nifty 03:48
I was investigating a better representation for lazy things in the repl, since I keep accidentally hitting enter on (1..Inf).grep({ ... something }) and then locking the repl and losing my state 03:49
TimToady you'd also have to notice the parser state and decide whether to execute immediately or just add to the accumulation
it ought to be use .gist for the output, which should not try to print something infinite
m: say 1..Inf 03:50
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«1..Inf␤»
hoelzro what does the REPL do atm? .Str?
TimToady m: say (1..Inf).grep(20)
dunno
hoelzro .gist would make more sense, imo
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
TimToady looks like an infinite grep is not considered infinite though
btyler right 03:51
TimToady it should get tired after a while, for .gist purposes :)
btyler it does .gist, line 36 of rakudo src/Perl6/Compiler.nqp
unless the thing in question doesn't know how to gist, then it just presents the string coercion (I think)
TimToady maybe gist is a context like eager, lazy, etc. 03:52
be eager till it starts to hurt, then quit :) 03:53
btyler worth noting that infinite greps have the same issue in .perl 03:54
TimToady well, in that case, .perl should obviously return (1..Inf).grep(20) :) 03:55
btyler how does one roundtrip a list that's been partially reified?
(if that matters)
dalek blets: 6598f3d | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/ (2 files):
basic quoting
btyler I suppose it ought not to matter how much of the list has been computed 03:56
TimToady In theory, theory is better than practice, but in practice, practice is better than theory. 03:57
don't remember who said that...
BenGoldberg In theory, theory is the same as practice, but in practice, they are different.
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lichtkind chhers 03:59
did anybody lookes into my asking? 04:00
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dalek ast/S26-WHY: 329d202 | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-documentation/why- (3 files):
Test documentation of anonymous parameters
 04:08
ast/S26-WHY: 4575233 | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-documentation/why- (3 files):
Test documenting invocants
ast/S26-WHY: caf4161 | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-documentation/module-comment.t:
Add test for module + semicolon comment
ast/S26-WHY: 248eccb | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-documentation/wacky.t:
Add test for stranger commenting scenarios
ast/S26-WHY: 9461c28 | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-TODO:
Remove tests I've added from TODO
ast/S26-WHY: 28c3aef | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-TODO:
Add question to TODO
hoelzro lichtkind: which would that be
?
lichtkind change the heading of the tablets 04:09
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dalek ast: 1dffa82 | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-documentation/10-doc-cli.t:
Fix broken RT reference
 04:18
Heuristic branch merge: pushed 58 commits to roast/S26-WHY by hoelzro
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lue wonders what it would take for sized native types to work properly... 05:09
TimToady a champion, of course... :) 05:10
lue it'd be nice if I couldn't do my uint8 $a = 256, mainly :) 05:11
TimToady m: subset uint8ish of uint8 where * < 256; my uint8ish $a = 256; 05:15
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$a'; expected 'uint8ish' but got 'Int'␤ in block at /tmp/3E1WkaVWtt:1␤␤»
TimToady hmm
m: subset uint8ish of uint8 where * < 256; my uint8 $a = 256.uint8ish; 05:17
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«No such method 'uint8ish' for invocant of type 'Int'␤ in block at /tmp/YH3gSU2fQZ:1␤␤»
TimToady m: subset uint8ish of uint8 where * < 256; my uint8 $a = uint8ish(256);
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«Cannot invoke this object (REPR: Uninstantiable, cs = 0)␤ in block at /tmp/r9HxiaHQja:1␤␤»
05:17 rurban1 left
TimToady m: my uint8 $a = uint8(256); 05:18
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«Cannot invoke this object (REPR: P6int, cs = 0)␤ in block at /tmp/to6LXUMw0Y:1␤␤»
TimToady m: my uint8 $a = Uint8(256);
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/o9oE4IxP0p␤Undeclared name:␤ Uint8 used at line 1. Did you mean 'int8', 'uint8'?␤␤»
lue or maybe trying to assign a too large number will store just the LSB (effectively large-num % 256). In any case my uint8 $a = 300; say $a; should not output 300 05:19
TimToady nodnod 05:20
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dalek blets: d32f641 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/ (2 files):
interpolation of quotes
 05:27
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zengargoyle TimToady: Debain's fortune-mod science has: In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. -- with no attribution. google / wikiquotes gives many possible sources amongst which is Yogi Berra and a couple CS UML peeps. 06:22
TimToady so it was probably Abe Lincoln, or maybe Paul Bunyan... 06:23
zengargoyle www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v8/n12...-1627.html says: Nobel laureate chemist Manfred Eigen
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Mouq m: say join ', ', &trait_mod:<is>.candidates.map({ .signature.params.grep({.named & ! .optional & ! .slurpy}) })>>.name.uniq 06:53
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«$DEPRECATED, $rw, $nativesize, $unsigned, $hidden, $array_type, $readonly, $box_target, $parcel, $default, $inlinable, $onlystar, %spec, &equiv, &tighter, &looser, $assoc, $copy, $required, $export, $SYMBOL, $docs, $hidden_from_backtrace, $pure, $dynamic, …»
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ventica . 07:05
m: my Dog $spot; say $spot.WHAT;
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Type 'Dog' is not declared␤at /tmp/_2Zjs59RYN:1␤------> my Dog⏏ $spot; say $spot.WHAT;␤Malformed my␤at /tmp/_2Zjs59RYN:1␤------> my ⏏Dog $spot; say $spot.WHAT;␤ expec…»
ventica m: my $spot; say $spot.WHAT 07:06
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
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ventica m: my Int $i; say $i.WHAT; 07:06
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
ventica m: my $num; my $type=Int; say ($type($num)).WHAT; 07:07
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«Cannot find method 'Int'␤ in block at /tmp/YE11BBhkjq:1␤␤»
ventica
.oO(S02 must outdated)
m: my int $i; my Int $j; say $i.WHAT == $j.WHAT; 07:09
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«Invocant requires an instance, but a type object was passed␤ in method Bridge at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4498␤ in sub infix:<==> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4415␤ in block at /tmp/PypFkUEfJD:1␤␤»
avuserow now I feel a bit silly. turns out that the deprecation warnings I saw previously in the rakudo star modules were previously fixed by FROGGS++ moritz++ supernovus++ and retupmoca++, so now I have what appears to be a happy MoarVM build, and a promising parrot test run in progress 07:11
that just leaves release announcement editing, sanity checking, and the final upload, unless I'm missing something? 07:12
TimToady m: my int $i; my Int $j; say $i.WHAT === $j.WHAT;
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«True␤»
TimToady ventica: you picked numeric equality there 07:13
airen I need to look at the moarvm ebuild for gentoo. Gives errors and says it's looking for things in /var/tmp/portage
Which is just hilariously wrong
ventica hrm, was worried abt that
why is it true thought 07:14
though?
moritz m: say so 1|2|3 ~~ 2 07:15
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«True␤»
TimToady probably because native types are only kind of implemented
ventica ok... so spec-behavior will return false? 07:16
TimToady probably oughta
ventica m: say "foo".WHAT; # experiment...
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«(Str)␤»
ventica k 07:17
TimToady but types on natives have to be carried by the native descriptor rather than the object, so it might be cheating currently
ventica m: my Str $s; say $s.WHAT === "foo".WHAT;
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«True␤»
TimToady r: my uint64 $i; say $i.WHAT 07:18
07:18 PZt left
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 6cc807: OUTPUT«(Int)␤» 07:18
ventica mhmm 07:19
TimToady otoh, storage types are kind of like subset types, which have a constraint, and a base type, which would be Int in such a case
psch morning #perl6 07:20
TimToady int8 would be like a subset of Int where * < 256
moritz and a lower boundary too :-)
TimToady er, where * ~~ -128 .. 127
psch airen: re ebuild: holysword was here two nights ago; apparently there's about 10 tickets on the gentoo tracker for the moarvm ebuild already
lue++ had some idea after holysword left afair 07:21
ventica m: my Str $s="foo"; say $s[0];
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«foo␤»
psch irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-07-23#i_9065693
ventica surprised
07:23 Mouq left
ventica m: my Str $s="foo"; say $s.substr(0); 07:24
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«foo␤»
ventica oh
m: my Str $s="foo"; $s.substr(0).say;
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«foo␤»
ventica argh
ohhhh 07:25
m: my Str $s="foo"; $s.substr(0,1).say;
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«f␤»
ventica ha
sergot o/
psch m: "foo".substr(*, 1).say
ventica \o
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«No such method 'Int' for invocant of type 'Whatever'␤ in method substr at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:5797␤ in block at /tmp/we94kCMUrz:1␤␤»
07:26 Ven joined
psch m: my &letters = "foo".substr(*, 1); say letters($_) for 0..2 07:26
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«No such method 'Int' for invocant of type 'Whatever'␤ in method substr at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:5797␤ in block at /tmp/i21O_7dom8:1␤␤»
07:26 FROGGS__ is now known as FROGGS
psch m: my &letters = "foo".substr({*}, 1); say letters($_) for 0..2 07:26
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/YPZXhQLuD7␤{*} may only appear in proto␤at /tmp/YPZXhQLuD7:1␤------> my &letters = "foo".substr({*}⏏, 1); say letters($_) for 0..2␤ expecting any of:␤ method…»
ventica m: say *.WHAT; 07:27
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«(Whatever)␤»
Ven psch: are you just looking for $_ here ? 07:28
psch m: my &letters = { $^a.substr: $^b, 1 }; say for letters( "foo", 0..2 )
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«␤»
Ven oh. you're trying to partial apply it
psch Ven: right, i think so :)
psch is tempted to just leave it at that with a "eh, Whatever" 07:29
m: my &letters = -> $a, $b { $a.substr: $b, 1 }; say for letters( "foo", 0..2 )
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«␤»
psch oh hm
m: my &letters = -> $a, $b { $a.substr: $b, 1 }; say letters( "foo", $_ ) for 0..2 07:30
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«f␤o␤o␤»
psch there it is
ventica 0_0 @ ->
what is the term for the arrow there? (need to go read up on it) 07:31
Ven ventica: closure?
TimToady pointy block? lambda?
Ven m: my &letters = { $^a.substr($^b, 1) }; say letters("foo", $_) for 0..2 07:32
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«f␤o␤o␤»
ventica as used above ... (12:30:13 AM) psch: m: my &letters = -> $a, $b { $a.substr: $b, 1 }; say letters( "foo", $_ ) for 0..2
Ven psch: ^
psch Ven++: yeah, that's more concise
Ven ventica: what TimToady++ just said :-)
ventica an equal followed by an arrow looks like alien-speak to my eyes
psch a block with placeholders implies a thin arrow? 07:33
ventica ok
Ven ventica: he's assigning (`=`) a pointy block (`->`) to "&letters"
ventica ok... and pointy-block is how a lambda looks in perl6 , correct? 07:34
TimToady m: say (-> $a, $b { $a * $b })(2,21)
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«42␤»
ventica aha, thx TimToady
ventica lightbulb
TimToady m: say (-> $a, $b { $a * $b }).WHAT 07:35
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«(Block)␤»
psch answers his own question with "yes", refering to S06:1931
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S06.html#line_1931
Ven psch: {} and -> {} are basically the same, really. One can be confused with hashes, and the other allows for parameters, but AFAIK, it's the same otherwise. 07:36
07:37 darutoko joined
TimToady m: say { $_ * 2 }(21) 07:37
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«42␤»
TimToady m: say { [*] @_ }(2,21) 07:38
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«42␤»
FROGGS ohh noes... another RT ticket to solve :/
ohh what does my irc client here? O.o 07:39
07:39 FROGGS left, FROGGS joined 07:40 jack_rabbit left
ventica m: my $foo = {$_ * 2}; say $foo.WHAT; 07:42
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«(Block)␤»
psch m: ({$^a}).signature.say 07:43
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«:($a)␤»
psch m: ({ }).signature.say
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«No such method 'signature' for invocant of type 'Hash'␤ in block at /tmp/HADtyUZ3BK:1␤␤»
ventica u made camelia sad
:P
TimToady m: {;}.signature.say
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«:($_? is parcel)␤»
07:44 dwarring left, pecastro left
psch oh, @_ and %_ are only supposed to show up in the signature when they're referenced inside the block i gather 07:44
TimToady yes
psch that does make sense 07:45
07:50 rurban1 joined 07:51 jack_rabbit joined
FROGGS japhb: the 'weird' work estimate is that way so that there are more measurements with lower values and less with higher... 07:52
07:52 dmol joined
ventica my %foo = {"bar" => 42}; say %foo.perl; 07:53
uho
uhoh&
FROGGS japhb: scaling=>double was kinda useless because the old code cannot handle codepoints > 0xFFFF or so, so there where not much measurement points at all
japhb: and scaling=>linear will take ages to complete 07:54
07:54 Alina-malina left, rurban1 left
FROGGS japhb: feel free to make it available as scaling=>weird :P 07:54
07:55 Alina-malina joined
ventica m: my %foo = {"bar" => 42}; say %foo.perl; #oops 07:56
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«("bar" => 42).hash␤Saw 1 call to deprecated code during execution.␤================================================================================␤%foo = itemized hash called at:␤ /tmp/MvapE_RPyC, line 1␤Please use %foo = %(itemized hash) inste…»
ventica m: my %foo = {"bar" => 42}; say %foo<bar>;
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«42␤Saw 1 call to deprecated code during execution.␤================================================================================␤%foo = itemized hash called at:␤ /tmp/ZIXLyrG1Qt, line 1␤Please use %foo = %(itemized hash) instead.␤----------…»
ventica oh 07:57
nvm
ventica_desktop m: my Int $i; my $whatter = {$_.WHAT}; say $whatter($i); 08:02
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
08:05 denis_boyun_ joined
psch m: my &renew = -> { $^a = ::($a.WHAT).new }; my $a = 5; say $a; renew $a; say $a; 08:05
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/e47wRWQvsi␤Placeholder variable '$^a' cannot override existing signature␤at /tmp/e47wRWQvsi:1␤------> my &renew = -> { $^a = ::($a.WHAT).new }⏏; my $a = 5; say $a; renew $a; s…»
psch m: my &renew = { $^a = ::($a.WHAT).new }; my $a = 5; say $a; renew $a; say $a;
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«5␤use of uninitialized value of type Int in string context in block at /tmp/Sy35ui90N3:1␤␤Not enough positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 2␤ in method new at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:12869␤ in block at /tmp/Sy35ui90N3:1␤␤»
psch that probably would work better with a non-core class 08:06
moritz no
your problem is that .WHAT returns the type object
not the name
psch ahh
moritz use $a.^name instead
psch so i don't even need the lookup
or that, yes
moritz right, you can say $a.WHAT.new 08:07
ventica_desktop o.O
psch m: class A {my &renew = { $^a = $a.WHAT.new }; my $a = 5; say $a; renew $a; say $a;
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/sVQloWZ23i␤Unable to parse expression in block; couldn't find final '}' ␤at /tmp/sVQloWZ23i:1␤------> }; my $a = 5; say $a; renew $a; say $a;⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of…»
masak good antenoon, #perl6
psch uh
ventica_desktop o/ 08:08
psch m: my &renew = { $^a = $a.WHAT.new }; my $a = 5; say $a; renew $a; say $a;
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«5␤Cannot assign to a readonly variable or a value␤ in block at /tmp/Pmg8cECwW0:1␤␤»
psch m: my &renew = -> $a is rw { $a = $a.WHAT.new }; my $a = 5; say $a; renew $a; say $a;
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«5␤0␤»
psch masak o/
moritz m: my &renew = <-> $a { $a = $a.WHAT.new }; my $a = 5; say $a; renew $a; say $a;
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«5␤0␤»
psch ah, more shortcuts :)
moritz a bit syntactic sugar for RW arguments :-)
psch moritz: did you see my update to PR #295, ooc?
masak psch: $a.new should work, too 08:09
psch m: my &renew = <-> $a { $a = $a.new }; my $a = 5; say $a; renew $a; say $a; # does it?
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«5␤0␤»
ventica_desktop is there a way to get back the lexical name of $foo? Something like "$foo.^myname" === "foo" 08:10
moritz psch: I saw what you wrote, but I didn't get around to an actual code review. Sorry
ventica_desktop: $foo.VAR.name
ventica_desktop ah
psch moritz: no worries, i just wanted to mention the spec change and all, whenever you (or anyone else, really) has time
08:10 isBEKaml joined
ventica_desktop nice 08:10
so much better than $$foo ! 08:11
ooh, .fmt is nice 08:13
Ven ventica_desktop: trying out Perl 6? :) 08:17
08:18 hoverboard left, thou joined
ventica_desktop Ven: yes; hoping to contribute 08:19
wud like to work on MoarVM
longtime P5 user... been cautiously waiting on the sidelines for P6... now feels like the time to jump in :) 08:20
moritz \o/
and I see you already found #moarvm
ventica_desktop yeah, chatted with jnthn on what needs doing
Ven ventica_desktop: if you're still in your "first learning" stage, feel free to try out github.com/Nami-Doc/learnxinyminut...l.markdown :P 08:21
ventica_desktop he recommended work on Asyn Socket I/o
Ven: thx for the tip.... bookmarked
Ven (you're definitely not a guinea pig for my tutorial :P)
ventica_desktop Ven: I know you're hiding food pellets... 08:22
08:23 thou left 08:25 fhelmberger joined
FROGGS avuserow: that sounds promising! please let me know if you have a release candidate I could test 08:25
08:28 xinming left, xinming joined 08:29 jack_rabbit left
masak ventica_desktop: \o/ 08:33
moritz avuserow: do you need a commit bit for rakudo/star ?
Ven doesn't see avuserow's messages :o) 08:35
Ven realizes he just doesn't have enough backlog here 08:36
08:38 brrt left 08:40 isBEKaml|2 joined 08:42 isBEKaml left, isBEKaml|2 is now known as isBEKaml, isBEKaml left, isBEKaml joined
ventica_desktop o/ masak 08:43
Ven: I'm not grokking the :<value><name> named-parameter syntax... I mean, I think I am but a part of me is very surprised by it... 08:45
Ven ventica_desktop: you mean f(:a(1)) ? 08:46
ventica_desktop no, f(:1a)
me no likey 08:47
Ven oh, alright. It's mainly for (:2th) and such.
(maybe I shouldn't talk about it ? Or is the explanation confusing ?) 08:48
ventica_desktop explanation is clear
I just don't like the feature... or I think it may only have limited +ve application, like the one you just mentioned
its my experiecne that blub programmers have a tendency to misapply this kind of feature 08:49
Ven well, I'm not the one responsible for the feature :P.
ventica_desktop Can you write f(:"bar"foo) ?
psch m: $_ = "foo"; s:2nd/o/u/; .say
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«fou␤»
Ven ventica_desktop: no, don't think so
psch that's the reason for the feature - i've never considered it in a general case
Ven then I probably shouldn't explain it here 08:50
ventica_desktop as long as a person follows best practice, ican see how t's nice
08:50 jack_rabbit joined
psch see S06:635 08:50
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S06.html#line_635
08:51 rurban1 joined
Ven realizes he needs to explain but and does. 08:51
(as separate ones, I mean)
08:53 SevenWolf left 08:55 rurban1 left
psch m: sub foo(Int :$named) { say $named }; foo :5named 08:56
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«5␤»
ventica_desktop 8|
psch it's *probably* not a great idea to use it like that, but there is this "don't forbid insanity" thingy... :) 08:57
m: sub foo(Int :$named) { say $named }; foo :"bork"named
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/rQGUpEFbc4␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/rQGUpEFbc4:1␤------> ub foo(Int :$named) { say $named }; foo ⏏:"bork"named␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ …»
08:58 jack_rabbit left
Ven psch: that's not allowed (and it's good) :P 08:58
Ven likes to forbid insanity far more than usual #perl6ers++ 08:59
ventica_desktop relieved
ventica wait, so an idiomatic for(@arr) is actually taking a lambda? 09:02
for @arr -> $arr { ... } ; the -> is a "pointy-block"?
jnthn Yes
ventica nice
jnthn Meaning that you can go over things two at a time just by giving it two args, for example.
*params
ventica oh that is so sweet 09:03
two-at-a-time in P5 is a pain
09:03 isBEKaml left
moritz m: for <a b c> Z 1..* -> $char, $number { say "$char: $number" } 09:03
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«a: 1␤b: 2␤c: 3␤»
ventica :) 09:04
jnthn The other really common idiom with 2-at-a-time is
Ven ventica: it's even greater than what you think, because it means $_ is the same everywhere !
jnthn m: my %h = a => 2, b => 3; for %h.kv -> $key, $value { say "$key = $value" }
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«a = 2␤b = 3␤»
Ven That's what I like when I "teach" people p6, I just can say "you remember that $_ you could use in lambdas ? Well, you pass a lambda to for, so gg !" 09:05
jnthn Where .kv makes a (key, value, key, value, ...)
ventica jnthn: super nice
Ven m: my %h = <a 2 b 3>; for %h.kv -> $k, $v { say "$k = $v. " } # ventica: you can init hashes that way too 09:06
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«a = 2. ␤b = 3. ␤»
ventica mhmm
m: say (1,2) eqv (1,3); 09:08
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«False␤»
ventica m: my $a=1; say ($a,2) eqv (1,2);
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«True␤»
Ven doesn't really like that there's so much equality operator
ventica hmm ok
was thinking something different
Ven thinks it hurts transitivity 09:09
ventica yeah but that's really part of Perl culture
we always had a lot of kinds of equalities
Ven hasn't done any perl 5 :) 09:10
ventica ah
jnthn Generally, there are plenty of operators, 'cus if you don't statically know the types of data, you really want to know the semantics of the operation.
Thus the split of + and ~ also.
ventica there are lots of P5 stackexchange questions of the variety 'why is "" false AND 0 false??' 09:11
Ven: as u note, break transitivity... :P
breaks*
m: my @a = 1 .. 3; say @a; 09:13
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
ventica m: my @a = 3 ..1; say @a;
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«␤»
ventica mkay
Ven is just worried of non-commutative equality, like in some languages
masak "" and 0 are both false because there are natural transformations Str => Bool and Numeric => Bool which work very well when "" and 0 map that way. 09:14
moritz ~~ is explicitlz non-commutatative
Ven yeah, it makes sense for ~~.
moritz but the rest (==, eq, ===, eqv) are all commutative and associative
and transitive 09:15
masak well, s/associative/chaining/
moritz right
psch that reminds me of how little i understood of trying to make ~~ chaining 09:16
other chaining ops map to vm operations, ~~ maps to an ast
wrapping that whole in an :op<chain> doesn't work, wrapping everything also doesn't
moritz en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitive_r..._relations is interesting
psch i.e. #81336 (i think it was?) is still out of my reach :P
synopsebot Link: rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Displa...l?id=81336
ventica masak: Yeah, but I think what hangs up non-Perlers is that if False === "" and False == 0, then "" === 0, but that's obviously not true
correction: False === 0 09:17
moritz psch: personally, I think that ~~ shouldn't be chaining
masak ventica: that's not what === means :)
m: say False === 0
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«False␤»
ventica masak: I'm shaky in p6 equivalences... i mean it in pseudocode
psch moritz: jnthn recommended a patch to see how it'd work, but if anything i also think it rather shouldnt
moritz ventica: those people confuse identity and coercion. That's forgivable 09:18
psch well, "recommended" is maybe too strong a word
masak ventica: I think the proper way to think about it is *mappings*. if everything gets flattened to Bool, then False is 0 is ""
ventica: if everything isn't, then... they're not equal, in general.
moritz the same argument can be made the other way too, you know? if 2 is True and 3 is True, does that mean that 2 and 3 are the same?
ventica masak: Sure... and I totallythink that way... I think this is a problem that comes from the blackboard (or whiteboard as the case may be)
moritz if you do it for True values, you quickly realize how silly that approach of thinking is 09:19
ventica moritz: I think the people who object to "" == 0 == False, will also struggle with 2 == True
since 1 == True
so are you saying 1 == 2?
09:19 nbrown joined
masak .oO( the mapping isn't injective! ) 09:20
ventica my opinion is that ppl that think that way should probably stick to Mathematica... :P
09:20 pecastro joined
masak I see nothing wrong with basing your language on established theory. 09:21
better than basing it on a hunch :)
Ven groans 09:22
ventica *+* wth is that??
masak m: my $c = * + *; say $c(40, 2)
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«42␤»
Ven ventica: if you're reading it in my tutorial, it's probably explained :) 09:23
ventica my @primes = 1, 1, *+* ... *; # lazy infinite list of prime numbers, computed using a closure !
Ven right to the right or below
Tene These days I'm pretty unhappy with implicit coercion.
masak it's a closure that takes two parameters, and adds them. hence the +
Ven Tene: coercion is not DWIMmy :P
ventica hmm, going to need some time to beat that one into my skull
09:23 nbrown left
masak Tene: I teach Python, so I see what you mean. but I feel Python goes to the other extreme, and wants every coercion to be explicit. 09:24
Tene These days I prefer "" == 0 to be TYPE ERROR
ventica wait, what? : say @primes[^10]; #=> 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55
primes = fib seq?
masak ;)
ventica: wrong name for the array, methinks.
is that from Ven's tutorial?
ventica yeah
Ven yeah haha, I think I changed it to be fib, but didn't change the explanation
Tene But, haskell is there for me already; no need for Perl to also be haskell 09:25
Ven comments getting out of date hahaha.
Also, you're getting confused with *+* because I used to explain * before, but I've moved it below, and now everything is broken
ventica the section on list comprehensions is pretty crazy... it's not ven's fault, list comprehensions in p6 appear to be mandatory insanity...
psch m: my &whatever = * + *; my &placeholder = { $^a + $^b }; say whatever 5, 5; placeholder 5, 5; # pretty similar actually
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«10␤»
ventica Ven: ah, makes sense
psch ENOSAY :(
Ven ventica: you can jump to that part: "# You can also use the "whatever star" to create an anonymous function"
masak Tene: Haskell has too much explicit pattern matching. pattern matching is boilerplate, repeating the same "shape" of a type over and over again. I'm waiting for a language that solves that.
Ven masak: too much explicit pattern matching ? 09:26
masak too much explicit pattern matching.
psch m: my @fib = 1, 1, $^a + $^b ... 20; say @fib
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/EwYggOtot9␤Cannot use placeholder parameter $^a in the mainline␤at /tmp/EwYggOtot9:1␤------> my @fib = 1, 1, $^a⏏ + $^b ... 20; say @fib␤»
Ven psch: mising those {}.
masak psch: need curlies.
psch right. i did it right the first time... :) 09:27
Ven masak: well, it's easy: import Prelude hiding (.); a . b = b a
masak: then you can do data.field :P
09:27 lelf joined
ventica Haskell... to use a phrase I learned from Doug Hofstadter... exceeds my abstraction limit :P 09:27
masak Ven: I think we are talking about different things. 09:28
Ven masak: you don't need to extract a shape that way ;)
psch m: my @fib = 1, 1, { $^a + $^b } ... 20; say @fib # where do they go? or is this broken?
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
Ven psch: it's not broken -- 20 is just never "hit" 09:29
jnthn 20 isn't a fib?
psch oh right
ventica its' not
21
8+13=21
psch i'm assuming too much magic it seems
Ven m: my @fib = 1, 1, { $^a + $^b } ... * > 20; say @fib # psch <- safety
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21␤»
Ven ventica: updated the tutorial to be saner in its ordering :) 09:31
ventica subset Even of Int where * %% 2; # <-- this is quite aesthetic, but how in the world can it possibly be efficiently implemented??
Ven ventica: what do you mean, efficiently implemented ?
ventica Ven: Cool... still working through... about the 50% mark now
Ven You'd have to do the checks yourself, it's just doing it For You.
ventica Ven: I mean, in P6 guts
Ven ventica: you should see the explanation for whatever star, just a little below (I just modified it to be at the Correct Place)
ventica Ven: ok... I get the basic idea... but laziness seems so dangerous to me 09:32
Ven embrace it :)
ventica like, hang bugs hiding behind every corner...
jnthn We did have it more magical in the past.
ventica btw, what is the P6 def'n of "closure"... that word is heavily overloaded in the industry, seems to mean a dfferent thing to everyone 09:34
im happy with a pointer into the synopses...
moritz ventica: a code object that contains references to outer lexicals 09:35
ventica just it's next wider scope?
i mean parent scope?
incl. globals, of course
moritz lexicals from any outer scoper
ventica k... I was always fuzzy on P5 scoping, so this is going to be a bit of a chore to get straight in my head 09:36
moritz and since the setting (which provides the operators and built-in classes) is provided as an outer context, every non-trivial piece of code is a closure
Ven now realizes why he moved it in the first place ... erm
ventica the P5 classic-scoping/my/our scoping is ... bleh
09:43 lelf left
Ven is now moving everything in his tutorial ... sigh 09:44
ventica i like the concept of flip-flop (my background is comp. H/W) but the syntax is a bit awkward i think
Ven I moved it because I needed to have loops explained. Sigh.
so either I rollback everything and I move the sequence operator "later", either I don't know. 09:45
ventica Ven: The 55% of the tutoral i got thru is good... it's a difficult subject :P 09:46
Ven you skipped the OO part ? 09:47
because I think flip flop is near the end
ventica yeah, i've see the ff operator before and was curious
besides, I hate OO
too bureaucratic for my tastes
in fact, the lack of OO is one of the reasons i fell in love with P5
i mean, ignoring all the 'bless' yuckiness 09:48
masak I used to think OO was too bureaucratic. then I saw it done well.
most of it isn't done well, it's cargo-culted to the max.
ventica masak: I'm not religious abt it, but I pretty much don't think it can be done well... i know others disagree
Ven I used to love OO. Then I just realized I just wanted a better module system ...
ventica yup 09:49
Ven Well, except for one thing: subtyping is both terryfying me and exciting me.
masak I'm not religious about it either. and yes, modules/encapsulation go a long way.
OO inheritance is way overplayed.
ventica the p6 way of doing type-restrictions are the ideal, IMO
Ven damn those C++ guys :P
ventica personally, I think typing is mostly a lot of hot air
Ven ventica: thanks for proof-reading :p
masak I blame Plato.
ventica exactly, it really is plato 09:50
strange how a guy dead for nearly 2,500 years is dictating our PL paradigms...
Ven not that one :P.
Ven chuckles 09:51
ventica Ven: yw... i can't go any further tonight... i'm already up way too late
Ven (well, at least, I don't think so hahahaha)
09:52 rurban1 joined
Ven mumbles something about typing being the movable image of the immovable thingies 09:52
ventica lol 09:53
m: my $foo = *; #<-- all the typing I will ever need....
camelia ( no output )
Ven To each his own :)
ventica: do you think the tutorial is "good enough" to be "unveiled to the real world" :P ? 09:54
ventica Ven: What I've gone thru so far is good
good balance between detail and parsimoniousness 09:55
Ven 'hope that convinced you to use some perl 6 here and there :P
ventica oh, i've already been on board for years... just been waiting for it to get stabler
(if stabler is a word... :P) 09:56
09:56 rurban1 left
ventica Ven: I think ur tutorial is hitting a sweet-spot... the docs are thorough but take too long to go through... the test suite is too terse and doesn't explain what anything is doing 09:57
i feel like goldilocks
Ven haha yeah, I started using it really fast for my personal projects, where I can just do Whatever I Want. 09:58
jnthn wonders if Ven++'s tutorial - Ven willing, of course - might deserve inclusion in doc.perl6.org too, since that lacks a good introduction
Ven jnthn: well, you'll have to tell me. But it was built exactly for this purpose
masak is happy that ventica-goldilocks can bear the tutorial :P
Ven masak: I'm happy it's not too big a serving, or too hot, to stomach :). 09:59
ventica lolol
or too hard to sleep on
masak that remains to be seen.
psch it does seem a bit hard to sleep on
Ven watcha doing to my tutorial.
ventica lol
psch seeing as you're still up ventica :P
ventica true
i threw the idea of a rakudo+JVM "Try Perl 6" page out earlier today (no, I don't have the web programming skills to make it happen)... that + a Ven-style tutorial would definitely not be too hard or soft to sleep on.... 10:00
you know, just click the line of code to copy/paste it over into the webtoy REPL 10:01
psch was it pugs that was behind try.perl6.org when it was still up? (which might well have been a few years ago)
ventica psch: now u mention it, i'm vaguely remembering that 10:02
psch i dimly remember that having existed at one point, long before i really considered trying to do thinks with perl6
ventica I was thinking of Try Arc (I love Arc, it's a cute little language)
yeah, p6 was strictly PoC at that time
something like this ---> tryarc.org 10:03
masak psch: yes. that was Pugs.
ventica tryarc.org/
oops
arc> (+ 1 1)
2
masak psch: would be great to get to the point where we have a try.perl6.org again.
10:04 chenryn joined
ventica arc> (pr "Me and Perl6 are best buds") 10:04
Me and Perl6 are best buds"Me and Perl6 are best buds"
masak: exactly
Ven Arc is kinda dead, though :( 10:05
masak except that it still drives HN. 10:06
there does seem to be a little bit of life in Anarki.
ventica Ven: it lacks a BDFL ... which is kind of a necessary thing for a language to actually develop into something useful...
Ven paul graham would be the one, but he stopped in 2009 right ?
ventica last i heard
masak the fact that the link at arclanguage.org/install 404s is a bloody embarassment.
10:06 thou joined
colomon hmmm, big batch of build failures on host07.perl6.com:8080/report last night. :\ 10:07
10:08 chenryn left
jnthn colomon: Ugh. Any way to get the build log? 10:08
psch how much would go wrong with stuffing m-camelia into a chroot or jail and slapping a website onto the front, ooc?
and maybe also "what would go wrong"
(feel free to stop enumerating at the biggest show stopper) 10:09
colomon jnthn: no. was just trying to duplicate it here.
psch the obvious thing i can see is persistence
ventica psch: Not a showstopper for a Try*
colomon has been trying to resist posting a p6 fib implementation here: news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8084354 10:10
psch i guess any efforts in that direction are better served with "fix the REPL"
masak checks what went wrong in Druid
colomon is building latest rakudo-moar 10:11
ventica psch: yeah, but, what use is a REPL if no one is using it?
10:11 thou left
ventica I haven't been following p6 news for the last year or so... I had no idea how healthy it acually is 10:11
masak ventica: it's hard to see from the outside. 10:12
ventica don't laugh
masak not laughing.
ventica masak: I know
masak the echo chamber is a real thing. it's difficult for stuff to get out.
ventica i'm just thinking that there are probably a lot of old P5ers like me assuming the same thing that I was "yeah, p6 will be here one day... when I'm ready to retire"
masak "Perl 6 is the future, and always will be" 10:13
ventica hehe
psch ventica: well, camelia has her own set of problems, the REPL could probably be put onto try.perl6.org easier
masak that meme/joke/preconception is really hard to get rid of.
colomon jnthn: my first try failed to duplicate the build failure (Math::Vector)
jnthn: secnd try as well 10:14
masak same here.
Druid builds/tests fine here.
Ven masak: I don't believe it's hard to get rid off. I just believe we're not really "trying" yet, because we don't feel ready 10:15
psch additionally the backlog says something about perl6-js for try.perl6.org i think, which does seem the neatest
masak Ven: I don't believe it's an on/off switch.
Ven masak: that's not what I said, though.
That's something that has to be started.
masak Ven: it's more an area-under-the-curve thing. the more ready we are, the more users we can unleash on the thing. 10:16
colomon jnthn: I'm calling random transient failure. will rerun smoke test now and see what happens.
Ven masak: definitely. But "publicizing the language" hasn't started yet 10:17
masak Ven: I have no idea what that means. 10:18
Ven: some days I feel like everyone is doing their own "but is it *released*!?" shell game.
Ven masak: exactly what I've said. You don't hear about it on hackernews, you don't see articles explaining how X did Y with it on /r/programming, you don't ...
No, I think that's what you see because you're used to seeing that. I don't see that. 10:19
masak I'm tired of it. I'm using Perl 6, I've been using it since 2005. there's no release I'm looking forward to.
Ven To the outside world, Perl 6 is not even something known to exist. They don't hear about it, so they don't know about it. So they don't learn it, use
They don't happen to read a blog post that uses it for examples, etc.
ren1us I think a lot of that is more prejudice against the perl label than perl6 specifically. 10:20
masak I'm tired of theories explaining why people don't care or don't get the right information. I just want to write Perl 6 code, and help improve Perl 6.
I want to do things that *matter*, not engage in useless games of semantics.
colomon masak: "no release I'm looking forward to" -- that's a great point.
Ven masak: Then do. But don't be annoyed that people don't understand you, because you're not opening yourself to explanations 10:21
masak I'm sick and tired of trying to PR things right.
colomon I'm using p6 pretty much every day for $work and for accomplishing useful things
masak I want to build things.
Ven Definitely. Perl has an insanely bad reputation among programmers. That's why, when I start speaking about Perl 6, I usually correct them when they say "perl"
masak Ven: I'm not annoyed that people don't understand me. I *don't care*.
I have a *great language* at my fingertips. I think I understand better than most how great it is, because I used it back when it was a feeble, non-great thing. 10:22
Ven masak: well, you seemed to be annoyed, considering how you spoke of it
colomon wants to point out that $work and "accomplishing useful things" are not mutually exclusive. ;)
ventica Encouraging developers - especially P5ers - to try Perl6 is not PR... it's just common sense. I think a webtoy (Rakudo+JVM or whatever) should be made available ASAP ... I would have been here a year or two ago at least 10:23
Ven colomon: exactly. When I did my talk, I started off with something like "I started using in prod Perl 6 around 2 months after learning it"
masak Ven: well, concepts like "ready", "release" and "production" *are* important. they're just not important to *me* and what I do. others are welcome to drown themselves in those matters. 10:24
Ven masak: I disagree. You have plenty of users not interested in these notions
masak fine.
Ven You are (or were). I am. And we can teach those people just fine -- It's a good way to build an userbase. Even though that's probably not right for the "perl phiolosphy" 10:25
ventica m: my $work; my $useful_things; say $work === $useful_things; 10:26
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«True␤»
masak here's what I want to do with my life: I want to use Perl 6. I want to find delight in the code I write. I want to occasionally blog about it, and delight others. I want to learn about programming, and compilers, and VMs, and optimization. I want to help people find delight in all those things.
ventica Looks like you're right colomon :P
ren1us I think a webtoy is a great asset, but I also think that a big obstacle for people is the learning curve and lack of information. As tutorials start popping up, more answers appear on stackoverflow, etc, more people (especially younger people first exposed to python) are probably going to stick with the language. 10:27
masak I don't want to spend my days on reddit arguing against people who don't want to be convinced that the product I'm using every day is worthy of their respect and attention.
ventica masak: Exactly. Roll out a webtoy and silence the critics. 10:28
masak I don't want to spend brain cycles teasing out the exact nuances of "ready" or "production".
because *it doesn't matter*. to me.
ventica: I'm glad you found your way here. sorry about the rant.
ventica masak: np... I understand the feeling overall... the general public is always unreasonably judgment, and from a position of complete ignorance too 10:29
judgmental*
masak ventica: got it in one.
10:29 Su-Shee joined
Su-Shee good morning folks.. 10:29
masak ahoj Su-Shee. 10:30
Su-Shee lemme remind you all of yapc::eu coming up and that there's room for lightning talks we would happily fill with some showing off of Perl 6.
because.. YOU KNOW.. ONLY THREE PEOPLE SUBMITTED PERL6 STUFF. ;)
masak oh, that bad, eh? 10:31
Su-Shee masak: very.
masak well, as it happens, I have a Perl 6 lightning talk ready to submit.
Su-Shee masak: you, jnthn, lichtkind.
masak it's called "Camel <--> Butterfly"
Su-Shee masak: haha.. :)
masak goes ahead and submits it
Su-Shee good. 10:32
because not that I don't like the two of you speaking, it would be nice if people actually started showing off more things..
masak yeah, only three p6 speakers. that's surprising.
Su-Shee: thanks for the heads-up. 10:33
jnthn thought lizmat had a talk too
Su-Shee jnthn: yes, the cocooning talk.
masak ok, so four.
and jnthn has two talks, no?
jnthn Well, it's fairly Perl 6 :)
Yeah, I submitted two so now I need to think of two lots of things :P
FROGGS *g* 10:34
Su-Shee masak: yes. but that's not even the same number of .. dancer talks alone!
jnthn heh, on Twitter: "Yes, speakers go ahead, submit MOAR lightning talks!"
Su-Shee sadly, I thought too late of it, otherwise I would have just ordered a range of talks and left you to fill it ;)
jnthn Moar? :)
Su-Shee jnthn: yeah, I can't tweet stiffly ;) 10:35
jnthn could do a lightning talk on Moar :)
Su-Shee jnthn: you already have a talk talk about it :))
jnthn True :)
Maybe I'll find some other nice lighting talk idea :)
Su-Shee jnthn: I'm well aware that I can fill an entire yapc with you alone. which I would totally do because you're a great speaker. a nice yajc ;) 10:36
colomon "Repeated character (') unexpectedly found in character class" -- warning during rakudo-moar build in smoke test (last night)
masak Su-Shee: lightning talk submit'd.
Su-Shee masak: merci.
masak de rien.
colomon: I also get the warning during the build of src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp 10:37
colomon: no line number, though :/
jnthn Su-Shee: Gee, I'd have to write a lot of slides for that :P 10:39
Su-Shee jnthn: no, you'd have to write a program for writing your slides. and that would be talk nr 1 ;) 10:40
FROGGS masak: grep for ['/'
jnthn That's not a bad idea :)
10:40 Ven left
Su-Shee jnthn: considering that the output format doesn't have to be powerpoint necessarily.. 10:40
colomon 's son just woke up and the first words out of his mouth were "What's a synonym for synonym?" 10:41
masak colomon: "equivalent", "metonym" 10:42
colomon: "analogue"
jnthn
.oO( "digitale" )
psch found the same stackexchange question as masak it seems
masak psch: no, I went for thesaurus.com :) 10:43
FROGGS: no such luck :/
anyway, Druid still builds just fine here.
psch masak: ah, that's clearly more direct
FROGGS m: my $path = ""; $path ~~ s:g { '/.'+ ['/' | $] } = '/'; # xx/././xx -> xx/xx 10:45
camelia ( no output )
colomon masak++ :) 10:46
10:46 lustlife left 10:47 Ven joined
Ven submits github.com/adambard/learnxinyminut...s/pull/687 10:47
masak Ven++ 10:48
FROGGS m: "''" ~~ / <[']>+ / 10:49
camelia ( no output )
Ven (WTB proof-reading, thanks :P)
masak I opened it in a tab. will read it later today. 10:50
Ven thanks :)
10:52 rurban1 joined
Ven will try again later tonight 10:53
10:57 rurban1 left
FROGGS ohh, there is a <?['.']> 11:00
masak FROGGS++ 11:02
FROGGS rakudo/src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp:3498: || <?{ $*QSIGIL }> <?['.']> <?>
masak git blame: jnthn, 0f60583f, Jul 31 2011. 11:03
jnthn bah, what an idiot
masak jnthn++
moritz git config --global alias.praise blame
masak git confic --global alias.whodunit blame 11:04
g*
11:05 lelf joined, erdic left 11:06 tempire_ left, tempire joined
FROGGS jnthn: that was probably when we changed it from <?before, and there the quotes where valid :o) 11:07
jnthn Ah, true :)
11:07 erdic joined
FROGGS damn, we did sooo much things in the past I barely remember :D 11:07
dalek ast: 2944d8b | (Tobias Leich)++ | S03-smartmatch/any-num.t:
fix fudge line
 11:17
11:21 nbrown joined 11:26 nbrown left
dalek kudo/nom: 8ff995d | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp:
remove quotes from character class

Things inside a character class should not be quoted, since the quotes would be picked up as characters to match. Thankfully the compiler warns now about these mistakes.		 11:26
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hoelzro morning #perl6 11:39
11:39 skids left 11:44 brrt joined
hoelzro I showed this to TimToady last night, but I thought I'd repost it in case someone else missed it and wanted to comment: gist.github.com/hoelzro/71b65aec6cdc2574da60 11:44
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FROGGS hoelzro: I know it won't help but I don't like #= and #| :o( 11:53
11:53 rindolf left
hoelzro FROGGS: I've seen a couple express a similar opinion; what would *you* prefer? 11:54
FROGGS #^ instead of #= ? 11:55
11:55 thou joined
FROGGS so one can *see* where it belongs to, and does not have to memorize it 11:55
hoelzro yeah, I like that
what about if it's on the same line, though?
#< ?
FROGGS hmmm
well 11:56
same line or after the statement is kinda the same
so #> and #< would be enough for all cases
hoelzro that sounds great to me
11:57 rurban1 left
FROGGS let's wait for the dark lord's intervention first :o) 11:57
11:58 anaeem1_ left
hoelzro which one? =P 11:58
FROGGS *g*
moritz #> and #< can come from putting an old-style diff into a comment
FROGGS true, he's more like Dumbledore... Guido is perhaps more like the Dark Lord (without trying to be offensive) 11:59
moritz (am I a dark lord now for trying to intervene?)
FROGGS moritz: is that a problem within a comment?
we'll see
11:59 thou left, anaeem1_ joined
hoelzro I think that all of the core contributors are dark lords/ladies in their own ways =) 11:59
FROGGS yeah, we speak Parcel >.< 12:00
Ven
.oO( I don't know the specifics, I was just told I'd get cookies )
 12:01
hoelzro buh-dum tsch
12:02 anaeem1 joined, anaeem1_ left
sergot m: "a".encode('windows-1252'); 12:03
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«Unknown string encoding: 'windows-1252'␤ in method encode at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:6553␤ in block at /tmp/3vFX77EfuQ:1␤␤»
sergot m: "a".encode('cp-1252');
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«Unknown string encoding: 'cp-1252'␤ in method encode at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:6553␤ in block at /tmp/YMaI4F3uYV:1␤␤»
sergot m: "a".encode('windows1252'); 12:08
camelia rakudo-moar 6cc807: OUTPUT«Unknown string encoding: 'windows1252'␤ in method encode at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:6553␤ in block at /tmp/rrNuuDhVV2:1␤␤»
FROGGS perhaps it is not wired up correctly 12:09
but I know that MoarVM supports it 12:10
sergot What aboout parrot and jvm? 12:12
p: "a".encode('windows1252');
camelia rakudo-parrot 6cc807: OUTPUT«encoding #-1 not found␤ in method encode at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:6559␤ in block at /tmp/VIFWJ8IrrM:1␤␤»
FROGGS jvm probably yes
sergot p: "a".encode('windows-1252');
camelia rakudo-parrot 6cc807: OUTPUT«encoding #-1 not found␤ in method encode at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:6559␤ in block at /tmp/hZSdkqxOE5:1␤␤»
sergot j: "a".encode('windows-1252');
camelia rakudo-jvm 6cc807: OUTPUT«Unknown encoding 'windows-1252'␤ in method encode at gen/jvm/CORE.setting:6553␤ in block at /tmp/JGWAcUsuJc:1␤␤»
FROGGS :o(
12:13 anaeem1 left
sergot So, it's better to write it in the Encode module 12:13
FROGGS yeah
sergot .u € 12:14
yoleaux U+20AC EURO SIGN [Sc] (€)
12:19 kivutar joined 12:26 troydm left 12:28 kurahaupo_mobile joined 12:29 kaare__ joined, rurban1 joined 12:33 hummeleBop joined, kaare_ left
colomon much better this time around: host07.perl6.com:8080/report 12:34
12:34 hummeleBop left
sergot FROGGS: done :) 12:35
masak colomon: what was amiss?
colomon masak: no clue
masak huh.
colomon I was running $work tests on the machine last night too, might have just run out of memory or something. 12:36
12:36 brrt left
colomon Seems like we have transient errors once or twice a month. 12:36
masak that sounds... bearable. 12:42
hoelzro m: say($!.VAR.WHERE); say($_.VAR.WHERE)
camelia rakudo-moar 8ff995: OUTPUT«22969776␤22969776␤»
hoelzro interesting...I'm guessing that's some sort of special scalar 12:43
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FROGGS sergot++ # :o) 12:45
12:45 chenryn joined
sergot m: say 1 if 0 for 1..2; 12:46
camelia ( no output )
sergot m: say 1 if 1 for 1..2;
camelia rakudo-moar 8ff995: OUTPUT«1␤1␤»
[Coke] FROGGS++ #thanks for fixing my misfudge. 12:47
sergot Is it only me: gist.github.com/sergot/ac3c90fcef831274a22a ? 12:51
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dalek kudo/nom: c506f5d | (Tobias Leich)++ | docs/ChangeLog:
log my changes of the last week
 12:57
FROGGS eww
Ven FROGGS++ 12:58
13:02 jnap joined
lichtkind hai FROGGS 13:02
FROGGS hi lichtkind
dalek kudo/nom: 0e65385 | (Tobias Leich)++ | docs/ChangeLog:
fix sentence in changelog
 13:03
lichtkind FROGGS: do you have write acess to github perl6 master repo? 13:04
FROGGS lichtkind: I think spo
so*
lichtkind could you please change the main description of the tablets repo 13:05
it now says "Perl 6 tablets -- tabular Perl 6 documentation" 13:06
masak .oO( "Take three a day; morning, lunch, dinner" )
lichtkind and i prefer Perl 6 tablets -- hypertext Perl 6 documentation
FROGGS lichtkind: no, sorry, can't edit it 13:07
lichtkind FROGGS: can anyone do it? 13:08
masak can't
PerlJam can't either
lichtkind: did you not create that repo?
13:09 chenryn left
moritz lichtkind: description updated 13:10
13:11 chenryn joined, jnap left
moritz FTR, the "owners" team that can administrate perl6/ repos contains pmichaud, me, TimToady, sorear, jnthn and diakopter 13:11
I wonder if it's time to remove sorear, and add FROGGS, timotimo and lizmat 13:12
PerlJam moritz: +1
FROGGS -1
masak sounds good.
FROGGS :P
moritz (other suggestions based on activity and general trustworthiness are welcome)
Ven +1 :P
jnthn I don't trust me :P
moritz FROGGS: -1 to which part? you becoming admin?
masak he was joking. 13:13
FROGGS moritz: that smells like more work :o)
PerlJam moritz: also, you don't have to remove sorear IMHO
13:13 brrt left
lichtkind thanks a lot moritz++ 13:13
moritz PerlJam: I'll just drop him an e-mail and ask for his preferences, I suppose
jnthn Aye. Anyway, +1 to the additions. 13:14
13:15 chenryn left
PerlJam moritz: add masak too. :) 13:16
moritz +1 to masak 13:17
masak <insert variation on jnthn's and FROGGS' jokes about trustworthiness here>
FROGGS hehe
moritz FROGGS: fwiw being a perl6 'owner' isn't much work, I usually do one or two actions in that role per week, usually just a few clicks 13:18
sometimes adding people to the 'perl6' team, sometimes creating a repository on behalf of a user
FROGGS moritz: yes I know, hence the ':P' adverb :o)
moritz ok :-)
(oh, I forgot: sometimes adding a post-commit hook to notify dalek)
ok, I'll wait 'till tomorrow for more feedback, and then I'll take action 13:19
masak moritz++ # delegating responsibility
moritz please remind me if I forget it :-)
13:19 lelf joined
PerlJam Is there a way in github for non-owners to get a list of who the owners are? 13:19
moritz PerlJam: I don't think so, which is why I listed them above 13:20
13:20 lelf left
psch there is, from the organisations homepage -> People -> Teams 13:21
PerlJam bummer. That would have been a nice link for lichtkind in the first place (had it existed and we knew where to point him)
13:21 [Sno] left
psch i.e. github.com/perl6 -> People -> Groups 13:21
PerlJam oh
github.com/orgs/perl6/teams/owners
nice
psch err, Teams, not Groups :)
PerlJam psch++
moritz I tried that link in a browser where I wasn't logged in, and it asked for my password 13:22
colomon icfpcontest.org/specification.html
psch it might well depend on belonging to the organisation
PerlJam aye, you have to have a github account and be logged in, but I think it works if you meet those criteria
FROGGS m: sub a(int $i) is cached { return unless $i; a($i-1) }; say a(4); 13:24
camelia rakudo-moar 8ff995: OUTPUT«Cannot find method 'gist': no method cache and no .^find_method␤ in method gist at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:7088␤ in block at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:3329␤ in any enter at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:3051␤ in method postcircumfix:<( )> at src/gen/m-C…»
FROGGS m: my $N = 32; my $rx = "a?" x $N ~ "a" x $N; say "a" x $N ~~ /<$rx>/ 13:26
camelia rakudo-moar 8ff995: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
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jnthn There's a lot of ways to back off there :) 13:31
PerlJam does it not timeout with $N = 31? :)
jnthn m: my $N = 4; my $rx = "a?" x $N ~ '{ $*x++ }' ~ "a" x $N; my $*x = 0; say "a" x $N ~~ /<$rx>/; say $*x 13:33
camelia rakudo-moar 8ff995: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling EVAL_0␤Two terms in a row␤at EVAL_0:1␤------> anon regex { ^a?a?a?a?{\c[32]⏏$*x++\c[32]}aaaa}␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ statement end␤ statem…»
PerlJam huh. It is reasonably quick with $N = 20
jnthn m: my $N = 4; my $rx = "a?" x $N ~ ' { $*x++ } ' ~ "a" x $N; my $*x = 0; say "a" x $N ~~ /<$rx>/; say $*x
camelia rakudo-moar 8ff995: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling EVAL_0␤Two terms in a row␤at EVAL_0:1␤------> anon regex { ^a?a?a?a?\c[32]{\c[32]⏏$*x++\c[32]}\c[32]aaaa}␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ statement end␤ …»
moritz but shouldn't it build a super-efficient NFA for us?
FROGGS N=20 takes 0.7s and N=23 takes 2.9s 13:34
jnthn m: my $N = 4; my $rx = "a?" x $N ~ '{$*x++}' ~ "a" x $N; my $*x = 0; say "a" x $N ~~ /<$rx>/; say $*x
camelia rakudo-moar 8ff995: OUTPUT«｢aaaa｣␤␤16␤»
jnthn m: my $N = 5; my $rx = "a?" x $N ~ '{$*x++}' ~ "a" x $N; my $*x = 0; say "a" x $N ~~ /<$rx>/; say $*x 13:35
camelia rakudo-moar 8ff995: OUTPUT«｢aaaaa｣␤␤32␤»
jnthn m: my $N = 15; my $rx = "a?" x $N ~ '{$*x++}' ~ "a" x $N; my $*x = 0; say "a" x $N ~~ /<$rx>/; say $*x
camelia rakudo-moar 8ff995: OUTPUT«｢aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa｣␤␤32768␤»
FROGGS wow
why ó.ò... just adding the dynquant method to nqp-p's regex compiler makes many tests do nothing :o( 13:39
hmm no, it's not that, must be something in the actions or so... 13:41
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FROGGS p: use Test; ok 1, "" 13:45
camelia ( no output )
FROGGS m: use Test; ok 1, ""
camelia rakudo-moar 0e6538: OUTPUT«ok 1 - ␤»
FROGGS what the hell is going on
hoelzro: have you tested on parrot also before doing the PR? 13:46
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FROGGS reverts 011048d and crosses fingers 13:48
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timotimo FWIW, the "super efficient NFA" doesn't mean we don't have to run the winning branch through the regular grammar again ;( 13:48
moritz oh right, there's that :(
timotimo i wanted to build a bit of an optimization for that that will replace all fixed-width matchings at the start of the declarative prefix that come after an "alt" 13:49
replace them with "move the cursor forwards"
needless to say, i didn't make it ;) 13:50
jnthn I think it can be a bit more general than that.
FROGGS hoelzro: 011048d needs to be either fixed or reverted... simple test case: perl6-p -e 'use Test; ok 1, ""'
timotimo jnthn: when i thought that up, i wasn't good at the regex stuff at all; i'm not that much better yet, to be honest 13:51
i don't really understand how all the match recording stuff works, for example
FROGGS isnt there a rxtype capture? 13:52
which is a method on the regex compiler?
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timotimo something like that; i was refering more to the data structure and generated vm-level code 13:53
jnthn: penny for your thoughts? :)
jnthn "It's tricky"
timotimo hah :D
moritz I bet it is. 13:54
timotimo ISTR that PCRE has a trick that makes code like "a*a" less pessimal with regards to backtracking
hm, not a*a, but there's some famous super-pessimal regex that'll cause backtracking hell for "naive" implementations
jnthn I *think* I'd probably look at introducing an edge type in the NFA that marks the end of the fast-forwardable bit
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timotimo do you think it'd be a good idea to introduce something that does the recording after fast-forwarding? 13:55
...(..)... for example seems fast-forwardable and you can see from the beginning what piece needs to get captured 13:56
[Coke] huh. perl5 regexen now have ::: (but spell it very differently)
timotimo otherwise the fast-forwardable part would have to end at the 3rd .
[Coke]: huh, what does ::: do?
i know about : for backtracking control
[Coke] :, ::, :::, and :::: are all backtracking control, as i recall. 13:57
timotimo oh, yikes :)
does one of them mean the same as <cut>?
moritz has lost the overview over all those too 13:58
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timotimo also, is <cut> actually hard to implement or is it just that nobody championed it yet? 13:58
i don't see any spectests with <cut> in them o_O 13:59
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FROGGS I dunno 13:59
<commit> might be easy, right?
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timotimo we do have a tiny amount of commit tests in the spectest suite 14:00
tbh, i don't know what the difference between cut and commit is, should probably have a look :)
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timotimo oh 14:01
yeah, i confused commit and cut
FROGGS okay, now that I have test output I see that dynquant also works on parrot :o) 14:02
timotimo awesome! :)
FROGGS only one backend left -.-
timotimo looks for pom-poms
masak [Coke]: <cut> is the actual spelling of :::: 14:03
timotimo so, <commit> without an argument seems easy to implement, it'd just be "backtrack into this and we fail completely forever"
masak er, or was it <commit>...
14:03 nbrown left
timotimo commit with an argument seems like more work 14:03
dalek p/dynquant: a12b1b3 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/parrot/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
support code blocks as quantifiers on parrot too
 14:04
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dalek p/dynquant: 6319608 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/moar/QAST/QASTRegexCompilerMAST.nqp:
cleanup dynquant on moarvm
 14:08
timotimo FROGGS: i appreciate your work! 14:10
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timotimo jnthn: can moarvm's spesh kick in for the "where" part of a type? 14:11
like, in-line it?
FROGGS timotimo: well, it is fun :o)
timotimo i'd think we'd need a special case for istype that checks if the RHS is something with an attached code
dalek kudo/dynquant: 85550e5 | (Tobias Leich)++ | lib/Test.pm:
Revert "Test: Copy filehandles if we can"

This reverts commit 011048d4e862057537f1e5f682378fc505737d8f.
kudo/nom: 189d1ce | (Tobias Leich)++ | lib/Test.pm:
Revert "Test: Copy filehandles if we can"

This reverts commit 011048d4e862057537f1e5f682378fc505737d8f.		 14:12
timotimo jnthn: it seems like depessimizing where blocks on type constraints would be a worthy cause; i haven't actually measured the performance of that, but i suspect its pretty bad 14:14
PerlJam timotimo: re pessimal regex, were you talking about the one in swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html or something else? 14:15
timotimo that's the one i was thinking about, i believe
i seem to recall masak writing about that one, too
maybe
jnthn timotimo: I suspect we can de-sugar the check to a method call which could then be subject to inlining, perhaps 14:16
PerlJam so, that's basically what FROGGS was doing earlier.
timotimo no, i don't think so, PerlJam
what froggs is doing is allowing code in regexes like / "foo" ** { $foo .. $bar } / 14:17
masak \o/
hoelzro FROGGS: nope =(
my mistake 14:18
PerlJam no, I mean the poorly performing regex he was using earlier is the same as from Russ Cox
FROGGS hoelzro: no problem
PerlJam <FROGGS> m: my $N = 32; my $rx = "a?" x $N ~ "a" x $N; say "a" x $N ~~ /<$rx>/ # this one
timotimo oh? is that so?
FROGGS PerlJam: that is just from an RT ticket
timotimo ah, thought so :(
if we knew (through escape analysis or something like that?) that we only want the boolean result value of the match, we could totally skip the non-NFA in this case 14:19
but that seems like a thoroughly restricted application case
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moritz for most regexes, the non-matching case is the one with problematic performance 14:19
14:20 lichtkind_ is now known as lichtkind
moritz I mean, for exponential regexes and the like 14:20
timotimo hmm
so a simple-ish check for "is the declarative prefix == the regex" after non-matching with the NFA would give us much faster failure? 14:22
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moritz I don't think so 14:30
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timotimo how about if a regex seems to be performing poorly we automatically post it to irc and have a majority vote 14:31
moritz +0.92 14:33
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Ven + 0..92 %% '.' 14:43
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[Coke] moritz: I am fine with Mu not smartmatching. Would you say the current error is LTA? 14:58
(RT #122395) 14:59
synopsebot Link: rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Displa...?id=122395
masak "expected 'Any' but got 'Mu'" feels pretty accurate to me. 15:06
how could it be improved?
[Coke] m: say Mu ~~ 0 15:07
camelia rakudo-moar 0e6538: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding <anon>; expected 'Any' but got 'Mu'␤ in method ACCEPTS at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:1480␤ in block at /tmp/_KO2qkuHiT:1␤␤»
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[Coke] ... yah, ok. was remember the backtrace more than the top level message. 15:07
*ering
TimToady so why shouldn't ACCEPTS accept a Mu argument in this case?
[Coke] Ok. I'll reject the ticket and fix the tests, since ISTR that timtoady was of two minds; we'll pick one for him.
... unless he's awake! curses!
TimToady I thought we already decide this last night... 15:08
*ded
[Coke] m: say 1|2|3 ~~ 2
camelia rakudo-moar 0e6538: OUTPUT«any(False, True, False)␤»
[Coke] ^^ moritz wants that to keep working.
ISTR that was the edge case you weren't sure of.
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TimToady well, I kinda want it to stop working 15:09
why does moritz want it?
I guess I should backlog first
[Coke] ok, I'll let you two thunderdome.
TimToady: here: rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=122395
last two comments, moritz & froggs.
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PerlJam TimToady: why do you want it to stop working? 15:12
colomon m: say ().hash.perl 15:13
camelia rakudo-moar 0e6538: OUTPUT«().hash␤»
colomon m: say [].hash.perl
camelia rakudo-moar 0e6538: OUTPUT«().hash␤»
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colomon How do I stop a CATCH block from exiting the function it is in? 15:14
hoelzro FROGGS: what corner case did you come across that I didn't account for?
I'd like to fix that commit over the weekend
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moritz TimToady: just general DWIMiness 15:14
[Coke] ISTR there's a resumy thing. 15:15
moritz TimToady: I didn't read yesterday's backlog, so I can't contribute much to the discussion
[Coke] colomon: I thik "resumable exceptions" are the answer to that, but have no idea if that works. 15:16
colomon [Coke]: Does CATCH always return, then? 15:17
[Coke] no, return returns.
do you have a short example that demonstrates the WAT you are having? 15:18
PerlJam colomon: do you mean for when the CATCH block doesn't handle the exception? i.e. you just want to ignore it?
TimToady sounds like a 'goto' to me
colomon …. no, I want to know what happens when CATCH *does* handle the exception.
hoelzro oh, just saw your test case =) 15:19
colomon ie I'm trying to CATCH, report the error, and return something emptyish
colomon is a bit stumped he cannot figure out this basic thing. 15:20
PerlJam colomon: I'd need to see some code to understand the difficulty I think. 15:23
TimToady moritz: well, I was just thinking about the Mu vs Any case, but I just thought of another reason: it makes it very difficult to optimize 'when 2' into using a jump table if you can't coerce the given to a single integer, unless we can figure out how to goto 3 different places in parallel...
and one of the major goals of mayking ~~ asymmetric was to allow for just such an optimization 15:24
*making
psch m: sub foo { die "ded"; say "never here"; CATCH { default { say "whoops! " ~ .^name; return "we didn't make it" } } }; my $x = foo; say $x; # something like this colomon? 15:25
camelia rakudo-moar 0e6538: OUTPUT«whoops! X::AdHoc␤we didn't make it␤»
PerlJam colomon: handle the exception and return something sounds like CATCH { when SomeException { say "blah"; return "something" } } to me.
colomon I've got it figured out, I think.
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colomon PerlJam++ [Coke]++ 15:25
BenGoldberg m: sub foo { die "no"; say "never"; CATCH { default { "oww" } } }; say foo; 15:26
camelia rakudo-moar 0e6538: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
BenGoldberg m: sub foo { die "no"; say "never"; CATCH { default { return "oww" } } }; say foo;
camelia rakudo-moar 0e6538: OUTPUT«oww␤»
TimToady I don't see any problem with using return from within CATCH; that sort of thing is why return is lexotic, and why we don't unwind the stack till after the CATCH 15:28
colomon PerlJam, [Coke]: quick explanation of my issue: gist.github.com/colomon/c3123119436ad6c7db71
15:30 Ven left 15:31 raiph joined
colomon realizes part of his problem was that he was looking at the wrong MAIN for some of his debugging, which didn't help matters in the least. 15:32
dalek p-js: b486a9e | (Pawel Murias)++ | tools/build/Makefile-JS.in:
Avoid conflict between parrot and js backend makefiles.
p-js: 78be7f1 | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
Handle charrange.
p-js: bca9dec | (Pawel Murias)++ | tools/build/gen-js-makefile.nqp:
Started creating a script to generate the Makefile for the js backend.
p-js: 196806c | (Pawel Murias)++ | tools/build/ (2 files):
Generate a tools/build/Makefile-JS.in which allows the passing of the nqp-js tests.
TimToady m: sub mystery { 1 | 2 | 3 }; given mystery() { when 1 { say 'one' }; when 2 { say 'two' }; when 3 { say 'three' } } 15:34
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«one␤»
TimToady that's the case that can't be optimized
it also doesn't jive with this: 15:36
m: say 1 | 2 | 3 ~~ Junction
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«True␤»
TimToady that case doesn't autothread the left 15:37
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FROGGS m: say /\w+/ ~~ "foo" 15:37
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«False␤»
TimToady we broke the symmetry of smartmatch in order to wrest control of semantics from the LHS, and this is just another case of that 15:38
FROGGS the RHS tells us how to smart match... so 1|2 ~~ 2 does not make much sense, unless Ints know about Junctions on the left
TimToady when 2 should allow us to say: coerce to 2, and is it ==? 15:39
er, coerce to Int
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FROGGS afk again 15:40
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[Coke] colomon: i have lost probably days of my life debugging the wrong thing. 15:49
dalek kudo-star-daily: bb1e404 | coke++ | log/ (13 files):
today (automated commit)
 15:50
rl6-roast-data: b6314be | coke++ | / (5 files):
today (automated commit)
PerlJam [Coke]: I'm pretty sure most, if not all, of us have. 15:51
colomon I think I may have gotten up to a month or so wasted debugging a single wrong thing 15:52
dalek blets: af060ce | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-g-glossary.txt:
added glossary terms stub
 15:54
masak "chasing ghosts" -- when you change and change and change something, but don't notice an effect; turns out you're changing one thing and measuring another.
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colomon is starting to vividly remember why he gave up on Windows 15:58
TimToady that's not as bad as what happens when someone swaps the left and right monitor cables to the stage, where every time you think you're fixing it, you're making it worse for the performers on the other side of the stage...
it's a pernicious feedback loop (dunno whether the pun was intended...) 15:59
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timotimo pmurias: hey, do you have time to work on nqp-js again? :) 16:23
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awwaiid ICFP contest today, great way to show off perl6! 16:31
TimToady ooh, go for it
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colomon …. my impression was you had to use their (custom designed) languages for this iteration of the competition? 16:34
TimToady write a rakudo backend?
timotimo and then surprise people with the good performance that results from using moarvm's jit and how easy it is to deploy because we have a jvm backend :P 16:38
pmurias timotimo: hi
timotimo pmurias: wishes for a rakudo-js came up a few times this week for having a "try perl6" website thingie that doesn't need a sandboxed compiler on one of our servers (because they are always leaky. always) 16:40
TimToady Eternal fame and fortune awaits you! 16:41
pmurias ;)
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timotimo pmurias: some left-over time might be well spent writing up a short roadmap or todo list or something like that 16:42
hoelzro +1 16:43
timotimo otherwise, spending your time on coding stuff would obviously be good, too :)
TimToady there are probably lots of people who would be willing to help shove it down the road
hoelzro I would lend some of my not-copious time 16:44
timotimo there's a TODO file that has been last edited on 22 dec 2012, so no clue if it can be "trusted" :)
hoelzro I would even go so far as to set up a "bug bounty" for it
I'd chip in a bit of money for whomever finishes it =)
TimToady but when will it be ready for production? :P 16:45
timotimo that's like only giving EXP for the player to get the last hit/shot in on the boss :P
hoelzro heh
timotimo: maybe it would be weighted by # commits or # lines changed
on the honor system, I guess
[Coke] (bug bounty) I am reminded that gittip is a thing.
TimToady quick, change all the whitespace
timotimo yo tadzik; in Steroids, your @.controllers starts out with a Controller object in it and in the constructor you add another Controller object for each controller reported by SDL, is that off-by-one? 16:46
hoelzro [Coke]: I thought of asking pmurias if he was on gittip
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tadzik timotimo: it mite be, let me see 16:46
[Coke] points at www.gittip.com/for/perl-6/ 16:47
timotimo tadzik: got a clue how tiles and tile rendering might best be integrated into steroids?
tadzik timotimo: I had some code doing that, but it was pretty stupid :P
pmurias timotimo: re the TODO is not to be trusted, the current work is in a different repo ;)
timotimo github.com/pmurias/rakudo-js - this one is the wrong one? 16:48
hoelzro [Coke]: nice, I hadn't noticed that
tadzik I joined that group :)
timotimo pmurias: also, don't let us discourage you by only asking for you to finish it; your work so far has been pretty cool; pmurias++ # nqp-js 16:49
pmurias timotimo: github.com/pmurias/nqp-js
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pmurias timotimo: I'm not discouraged at all, to the contrary ;) 16:49
timotimo \o/
hoelzro indeed, pmurias++ 16:50
tadzik timotimo: eck, where in steroids is that?
pmurias currently I'm porting over things to integrate into the nqp build system
timotimo github.com/tadzik/steroids/blob/ma...ids.pm#L16
and the BUILD submethod 16:51
tadzik oh, @.gamepads :)
timotimo aye, i misremembered the name of that
tadzik yes, it's probably a thinko
timotimo not a dangerous one; just means the list is one bigger; you always access them by id anyway, don't you?
pmurias I plan to spend today on it, once it's done I'll see what would the tasks for a TODO/ROADMAP be 16:52
timotimo i like the sound of that! :)
pmurias got to go&
timotimo see you later!
tadzik timotimo: right
16:52 pmurias left 16:56 kaleem joined
[Coke] goes through and finds more people on gittip 16:58
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TimToady [Coke]: so the answer is that ~~ must not autothread the LHS 17:01
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TimToady dwimmery of the LHS is only allowable by the RHS, and Int is not gonna allow it, or we can't optimize switch statements that are all integers. 17:02
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TimToady also, we're are unlikely change #| or #=, since #| creates a fake left margin for a paragraph of text, and #= naturally alludes to the A = B meme from math 17:05
maybe we should allow #v at the bottom end of the row of #| so it's an arraw pointing down
*row
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TimToady of course, you can always put #v there anyway, but text on the line would not currently be added to the #| paragraph 17:06
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TimToady or maybe allow ↓ as an alternative to | 17:09
but ^ is pointing the wrong direction entirely, and > is 90° off :) 17:10
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TimToady visual metaphors usually trump semantic metaphors to my mind 17:11
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TimToady there's also ￬ but that's skinnier than | in my current font, so probably best to stick with v 17:17
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itz_ there's a Perl Hack Day happening in Sept in London and I'm hoping there will be some beginners working on P6. Any pointers for low hanging fruit? 17:25
jnthn Stuff in module space, perhaps. 17:26
Potentially testneeded tickets also
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masak sometimes just trying stuff out and asking questions here on channel helps drive things forward in various ways. 17:27
timotimo aye, but that's usually a wishy-washy thing
can't really point people towards anything in particular; may end up disappointing them/driving them away 17:28
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masak may be insufficiently concrete for some, yes. 17:28
itz_ hmmm going through tickets is an objective and demostrating some perl 5 v perl 6 differences
17:28 btyler left
timotimo maybe we could pretend we had a RakudoInABrowser or OnASecureServer and offer the task of writing a try.perl6.org html/js/css thingie that could interface with that 17:29
dalek ecs: 3fa5859 | TimToady++ | S26-documentation.pod:
document semantics of multiple #| or #=
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hoelzro TimToady: since you're thinking about #| and #=, did you see FROGGS' earlier comment on them? 17:30
TimToady that's what I was responding to
hoelzro oh, perfect =) 17:31
hoelzro needs to be more diligent about backlogging
vendethiel realized he learned quite some stuff about P6 while writing his tutorial 17:32
TimToady needs to be more diligent about highlighting others
vendethiel (doesn't mean you should make them write a tutorial :p)
FROGGS hoelzro: what do you mean by corner case? 17:33
hoelzro FROGGS: I was asking for a test case, not realizing you'd provided one =) 17:34
I figured it out, though
FROGGS hoelzro: awesome :o)
hoelzro =)
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carlin it seems on OpenBSD, libtommath's mp_rand is only giving results that `mod 2` == 0, so nqp::rand_I(2, Int) won't return 1 17:52
masak carlin: o.O 17:54
carlin: that's crazy.
carlin++ # finding the bug
carlin: does this mean that we could call mp_rand with twice the upper limit, and then divide by 2, and it'll work? 17:55
jnthn wat...
ventica_desktop libtom* are a little sketchy, IMO 17:56
was planning to use them in a project of my own, but then started digging into the internals and got scared away 17:57
masak this is the first gotcha I'm aware of.
BenGoldberg p: srand(3); print nqp::rand_I(10,Int) for 1..10; 17:59
camelia rakudo-parrot 189d1c: OUTPUT«5708404403»
rakudo-parrot 189d1c: OUTPUT«3021355780»
ventica_desktop some of those look like odd numbers to me ... :\ 18:00
BenGoldberg But it does demonstrate a bug!
ventica_desktop ?
TimToady srand being ignored
ventica_desktop oh 18:01
BenGoldberg srand isn't doing anything to reset the state of libtommath
ventica_desktop haha
yeah
gtodd when I start up scala to get into the REPL and then quite as soon as it loads it takes about 13 seconds on my machine ...
with perl6-j about 7 seconds 18:02
masak nice. 18:04
gtodd but it does seem that perl6-j takes longer to actually be up and running compared to scala which seems to start up some sort of REPL up pretty fast ....
perl6-j must load parse more to get "ready" than scala does 18:05
it just led me to wonder if there was an easy REPL could be "optimized " for each type of rakudo that was running it 18:06
or if that is already the case
ventica_desktop it appears to me that libtommath just calls stdlib rand()...
nwc10 OK, why is t/spec/integration/99problems-51-to-60.t failing when run as part of the spectest but not stand alone? 18:07
gtodd of course start up time for the REPL is not a sexy language design goal and it is mostly good enough so ... :) 18:08
18:14 kaare__ joined 18:15 Ven joined
[Coke] nwc10: memory pressure? 18:21
18:25 dmol joined, treehug88 joined
carlin here's the result of mp_rand 100,000 times on OpenBSD: gist.githubusercontent.com/carbin/...tfile1.txt 18:26
and the same thing on linux: gist.githubusercontent.com/carbin/...tfile1.txt
that's the result that is set here: github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/blob/mast...ops.c#L784
18:28 btyler joined
Ven I'll take advantage of the fact that more people are here and ask for proof-reading of github.com/adambard/learnxinyminut...s/pull/687 :) 18:33
18:33 BenGoldberg left 18:34 pecastro joined, nbrown joined
hoelzro Ven: you should probably use ```perl6 instead of ```perl 18:35
Ven hoelzro: nah, perl6 has terrible comments highlighting. 18:36
hoelzro ='(
Ven hoelzro: try the oldest commits, you'll see how bad it looks
hoelzro which oldest commits?
btyler (Ven: hoelzro is the author of the linguist perl6 support, which is what github uses for syntax highlighting)
Ven hoelzro: I mean in the PR :) 18:37
hoelzro: github.com/Nami-Doc/learnxinyminut...l.markdown only the multilines ones are highlighted
hoelzro wtf
Ven and it's reading pretty bad ... so I had to go back to perl :(
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hoelzro WTF 18:38
what did GH do
Ven hahaha
18:39 nbrown left
hoelzro I hadn't ever noticed how bad the single line ones were 18:39
it works fine with just pygments
I just don't understand 18:40
apparently it has the single line comment class applied to it 18:41
Ven now you know why I changed to perl5's P
hoelzro yeah
I just don't understand
why it's so bad on GH 18:42
also, Ven++ for writing this
Ven hoelzro++ # highlighting, aka insanity :P 18:43
gtodd hmm I can't build rakudo today .... paste.scsys.co.uk/409550 18:44
hoelzro I see now 18:45
they don't have a class for Comment.Singleline
this drives me nuts, because I don't think this is fixable 18:46
FROGGS gtodd: that looks like as if parts of your build is pretty old
like 3rdparty in nqp
18:47 ggoebel111116 left
gtodd hmm git pulled 18:47
maybe I'm ont in my usual directory ... I did a few house cleaning tasks
18:48 ggoebel111116 joined
gtodd rm -rf nqp etc etc maybe I'll just do totally fresh checkout ... 18:48
18:48 vendethiel- joined 18:49 Su-Shee left
masak it just struck me that it's really silly whenever I have an enum, say Player, with two values, say Player.WHITE and Player.BLACK, and I end up doing the `$player = $player === WHITE ?? BLACK !! WHITE;` dance 18:49
flussence rakudo-m just built fine for me (wow... that was fast) 18:50
masak what I really want to do is say to the language, "ok, we both know this enum can biject (in whatever way) onto Bool. $player = !$player"
:)
18:51 Ven left, vendethiel left
masak well, it's Perl 6. I guess I can just custom-define prefix:<!> 18:51
jnthn multi prefix:<!>(Player $p) { ... }
masak but I'm after something slightly deeper.
namely, sometimes types act like other types.
gtodd masak: then you need InfinitePlayer ;-)
masak there will be other circumstances when a type will "act like" a numeric type, or a string, or an array, without *being* either of those. 18:52
dalek p/dynquant: dbb0832 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/parrot/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
align to the standard about label prefix in dynquant
masak in the case of Bool, I want to "do prefix:<!> under the Player->Bool transform".
the closest analogue I can think of is `handles`, actually. 18:54
but `handles` assumes aggregation/delegation. this doesn't. 18:55
it just assumes that there's an isomorphism between my type and some other type where the operation is defined.
TimToady m: enum P of Bool <Me Them>; my P $p = Me; $p = not $p; say $p 18:57
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/LsfkUrYUit␤Method 'set_of' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6::Metamodel::EnumHOW'␤at /tmp/LsfkUrYUit:1␤------> ␤» 18:58
TimToady aww
18:58 SamuraiJack__ left 18:59 spider-mario left
masak that would... definitely be a start. 18:59
TimToady m: enum P <Me Them>; my P $p = Me; $p = P(not $p); say $p
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«(P)␤»
masak aww :) 19:00
19:00 darutoko left
masak yes, what I'm mainly trying to avoid is that casting back to P 19:00
moritz ok, sorear++ answered that he's fine with being removed as an admin from the perl6/ org
masak good bye, sorear++. it was very good knowing you. good luck with everything.
flussence sorear++ :) 19:01
moritz quoth "I haven't been feeling the Perl 6 so much lately" 19:02
jnthn hopes he might be lucky enough to run into sorear++ again some day, in some context
19:02 raiph left
TimToady m: enum P <Me Them>; my P $p = Me; $p = P(1); say $p 19:03
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«Them␤»
TimToady m: enum P <Me Them>; my P $p = Me; $p = P(+!$p); say $p
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«Them␤»
TimToady with coercive types we could just write $p = +!$p
if we declared my P() $p 19:04
kind of a shame that it requires the + on the +!$p
jnthn ...now there's a declaration not to say out loud :P
19:05 dmol left
ventica_desktop who is sorear? 19:06
TimToady m: use MONKEY_TYPING; enum P <Me Them>; augment class P { method other { P(+!self) } }; my P $p = Me; $p.=other; say $p 19:07
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/Ane4KEOPNR␤Cannot augment P because it is closed␤at /tmp/Ane4KEOPNR:1␤------> PING; enum P <Me Them>; augment class P ⏏{ method other { P(+!self) } }; my P $p ␤ expec…»
TimToady ooh
vendethiel- ventica_desktop: the old niecza guy 19:08
TimToady m: use MONKEY_TYPING; enum P <Me Them>; augment enum P { method other { P(+!self) } }; my P $p = Me; $p.=other; say $p 19:09
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/tLqhx7ourB␤Redeclaration of symbol P␤at /tmp/tLqhx7ourB:1␤------> TYPING; enum P <Me Them>; augment enum P⏏ { method other { P(+!self) } }; my P $p␤»
19:09 rurban1 left
vendethiel- (so long and thanks for niecza, sorear++ :).) 19:09
ventica_desktop vendethiel-: ok, cool... I don't know any #perl6 nicks, that's why i asked
besides TimToady, of course
vendethiel- didn't know TimToady
I think I bumped into him a few times before realizing who he was, hehe 19:10
TimToady doesn't know himself
PerlJam sorear isn't that old, really ;)
vendethiel- PerlJam: it took far too long for somebody to decide to make that joke =)
TimToady thought of it
masak sorear taught me a bunch of category theory. 19:11
hoelzro that's a bummer
masak I wish I knew as much math when I was his age.
hoelzro (about sorear)
but people move on, I guess
PerlJam vendethiel-: I was too busy wondering why you didn't actually say, "so long and thanks for all the niecza"
vendethiel- masak: nothing wrong with learning later :)
masak vendethiel-: oh, totally working on it.
ventica_desktop I was a bit underwhelmed with cat. theory after attending a talk last year and realizing it's just graph relations... :\ 19:12
TimToady well, he's certainly welcome back any time; I wish everyone burned their bridges as well as sorear++...oh wait...no I don't...
ventica_desktop graph relations + logic operators = cat. theory
masak ventica_desktop: I beg to differ.
ventica_desktop *shrug 19:13
masak ventica_desktop: cat. theory has relatively little to do with graph relations. that's just the way they like to draw things.
PerlJam
.oO( "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way" )
masak it's taking one very powerful idea, functional composition, and building a whole math out of it.
ventica_desktop indeed, the subject matter can be anything... but the connectives indeed have the properties of graphs
masak I wouldn't say "graphs" captures it very well. 19:14
TimToady PerlJam: we're discussing cats, not rabbits
masak though graphs can indeed also be cast in a cat-theoretic light.
ventica_desktop masak: I understand... it's just how my brain groks it
PerlJam :-)
masak one of the best quotes I saw was "Category theory is just mathematicians finally learning to program against interfaces." 19:15
ventica_desktop an interface with no specification, however
unless you believe that math conventions are internally consistent!
ventica_desktop snickers at the thought
to be more clear, I mean the category (yes, category) of *all* math conventions 19:16
masak urgh. no, I don't believe that :)
ventica_desktop
.oO(At least per6 has a spec... more than can be said for adv. mathematics...)
 19:17
vendethiel- masak: hehe, well, maybe we'll get to chat at some point
masak vendethiel-: the macros thing? yes, I hope so. 19:18
vendethiel- well, chatting in general, really :). I like discussing thingies with people
masak ooh, that's something we have in common :)
vendethiel- I think lizmat++ can tell how chatty I am :P 19:19
Well, the perl 6 tutorial is now going on the .com website, yay :)
masak \o/ 19:20
jnthn vendethiel-++ 19:21
19:21 vendethiel- is now known as vendethiel
PerlJam the perl.com website? 19:22
(that one is in need of some updates)
vendethiel PerlJam: the learnxinyminutes one (to start with ;-).)
vendethiel is kinda sad the maintainers there didn't review it, whereas I reviewed every single french tutorial PR *very* thoroughly :P
learnxinyminutes.com/docs/perl6/ here it is :-) 19:23
ventica_desktop I did 0.55*x in z minutes last night 19:24
Still 0.45*x to go...
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vendethiel hoelzro: another reason not to use perl6: I don't believe it's supported with our (learnxiny) highlighter 19:25
ventica_desktop m: my $a = 1|2; say $a;
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«any(1, 2)␤»
PerlJam vendethiel: fix it!
vendethiel he?
hoelzro the learnxiny person probably doesn't use GH markdown =/ 19:26
gtodd flussence: hmm still won't build on fresh checkout... here's how I configure: perl Configure.pl --backends=moar,parrot,jvm --gen-nqp --gen-parrot --gen-moar --prefix=/home/user/perl6
ventica_desktop m: my $a="foo" ~ "bar" & "bop"; say $a; 19:27
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«all(foobar, bop)␤»
ventica_desktop uh?
oh
PerlJam precedence
19:28 brrt left
ventica_desktop yup 19:28
tut bug
ok... perl6 arch. question ... is there a "minimal perl6" spec? 19:29
flussence gtodd: I usually `git clean -dfx` in rakudo/ and its sub-repos first before building, that wipes out any panda state if you use the default install location though, so be careful 19:30
gtodd hmm
19:34 BenGoldberg joined
gtodd seems I just needed to blow away ~/perl6/ too bad :) 19:34
hoelzro ventica_desktop: what do you mean, exactly? 19:35
gtodd not sure why but the build sometimes grabs stuff from in there and works and sometimes doesn't grab stuff and works and sometimes grabs libs etc and breaks 19:36
ventica_desktop hoelzro: Well, the full p6 spec/test-suite is quite daunting... I can imagine writing a toy implementation of some of it just for fun... but the whole thing, no way
gtodd I think it's my shell env ... I blame bash :)
ventica_desktop Maybe the consensus is that toy implementations are a bad thing...
hoelzro hmm
well, more power to you if you want to try it 19:37
ventica_desktop haha
jnthn Well, there's NQP (which isn't spec'd) which is a restricted Perl 6
hoelzro I mean, even the most compliant impls don't impl the whole thing
gtodd ventica you mean a perl6 embedded ala libperl.so ?
ventica_desktop not at present... besides, I don't have godlike Haskell skills
hoelzro oh, jnthn brings up a very good point
ventica_desktop jnthn: ah true... forgot abt that
so maybe I'm thinking of a spec'd NQP?
jnthn Maybe :) 19:38
ventica_desktop gtodd: no... that's nice, too, but i meant a spec to implement it in a new language, e.g. Racket or something
not saying it's a good idea... it's an idea :P
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hoelzro ventica_desktop: you could probably just start picking "simple" things to implement 19:42
masak +1
build things up step by step.
19:45 rurban1 left
gtodd hmm so what about libperl.so type things ... e.g. postgresql has plperl ... is there a "opposite" of NativeCall that is amazing :-) 19:45
ventica_desktop ok, back to tutorial... question... how to get two junctions to invoke a function in a "cartesian product" manner... f(a,b) gets invoked for each value of aXb ? 19:46
vendethiel ventica_desktop: `for @a X @b -> $a, $b {f($a, $b) }` 19:47
ventica_desktop oh
masak ventica_desktop: if it's really junctions you want, this also works: f(any(@a), any(@b)) 19:48
but usually these days, I find it's lists I want, not junctions. 19:49
or sets. sometimes sets.
lue r: say "ABC".encode».WHAT;
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 189d1c: OUTPUT«(utf8)␤»
masak I want junctions more or less exactly when I'm asking "is there any...?" or "are all...?" type questions.
lue I'm not convinced » on a Buf should do that. :) 19:50
dwarring ventica_desktop: rakudo has some a small sanity test suite github.com/rakudo/rakudo/tree/nom/t/01-sanity
masak lue: I believe it's a no-op in that case. 19:51
BenGoldberg m: "ABC".encode.WHAT.say
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«(utf8)␤»
masak lue: which is why you get only one value out of it.
dwarring maybe you could use that?
lue masak: interesting. Still feels like the wrong answer to me. :)
vendethiel masak: you can do that with any Oo 19:52
masak lue: seems pretty consistent to me.
TimToady r: say "ABC".encode[]».WHAT;
vendethiel now I'm surprised
masak vendethiel: yep.
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 189d1c: OUTPUT«(Array)␤»
masak vendethiel: they nest.
TimToady r: say "ABC".encode[*]».WHAT;
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 189d1c: OUTPUT«(Parcel)␤»
vendethiel god help us :)
lue r: say "ABC".encode[0..*-1]».WHAT
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 189d1c: OUTPUT«(Parcel)␤»
masak m: say any("foo", "bar", "baz") eq any("gloop", "maz", "foo")
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«any(any(False, False, True), any(False, False, False), any(False, False, False))␤»
TimToady r: say "ABC".encode.list».WHAT; 19:53
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 189d1c: OUTPUT«(Array)␤»
lue r: say "ABC".encode.list.perl
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 189d1c: OUTPUT«Array.new(65, 66, 67)␤»
TimToady that seems...wrongish...
r: say "ABC".encode.values».WHAT; 19:54
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 189d1c: OUTPUT«(Array)␤»
TimToady why Array?
ventica_desktop dwarring: Thanks, I'll take a look
lue Aside from my general complaint that Bufs should be more like arrays and less like strings, I'd expect at least the to-list conversion to work right with »
TimToady r: say "ABC".encode.values.list».WHAT;
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 189d1c: OUTPUT«(Array)␤»
lue r: say Array.new(65, 66, 67)».WHAT; # sanity check 19:55
FROGGS r: say "ABC".encode.values.list».^name
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 189d1c: OUTPUT«(Array)␤»
rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 189d1c: OUTPUT«Int Int Int␤»
FROGGS .WHAT might be WAT
TimToady r: say "ABC".encode.ords; 19:56
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 189d1c: OUTPUT«No such method 'ords' for invocant of type 'utf8'␤ in block at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
jnthn TimToady: What did you expect .list on a Blob to be? Identity? 19:57
ventica_desktop hehe my first segfault of ./perl6 :P
TimToady well, I expected it to work more like an immutable Buf
m: say Buf.new(65,66,67).list 19:58
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«65 66 67␤»
TimToady m: say Buf.new(65,66,67).list.WHAT
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«(Array)␤»
jnthn Well, it does, apparently :P
Buf inherits, or does, Blob, iirc
TimToady it seems a bit difficult to pry out the values as a list 19:59
gtodd hmm the build still gives me this: /usr/bin/ld: ../../../../3rdparty/dyncall/dyncall/libdyncall_s.a(dyncall_api.o): relocation R_X86_64_32S against `a local symbol' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC
TimToady m: say [1,2,3]».WHAT 20:00
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«(Array)␤»
TimToady I guess that's waiting completion of 'is nodal'
lue r: say "ABC".encode.list».WHAT; say "ABC".encode.list[0].WHAT;
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 189d1c: OUTPUT«(Array)␤(Int)␤»
20:01 rurban1 joined
TimToady m: say [1,2,3][]».WHAT 20:01
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«(Array)␤»
TimToady m: my @array = 1,2,3; say @array».WHAT
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«(Array)␤»
TimToady that seems quite wrongish 20:02
lue o_o so I guess something broke then
TimToady m: my @array = 1,2,3; say @array».succ
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«2 3 4␤»
TimToady I guess it's the macroness that's breaking WHAT
jnthn I suspect that it's that .WHAT is actual macro-y
20:02 psch left
jnthn It may well be ignoring the hyper completely... 20:03
20:03 psch joined, woolfy left
TimToady m: say Buf.new(65,66,67)».succ 20:03
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«No such method 'succ' for invocant of type 'Buf'␤ in method dispatch:<hyper> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:1236␤ in block at /tmp/S3Y80VVYV7:1␤␤»
jnthn m: say Buf ~~ Iterable # what should this come out as? 20:04
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«False␤»
TimToady m: say Buf.new(65,66,67)[$_] for 0..2
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«65␤66␤67␤»
lue r: say "ABC".encode».perl; "ABC".encode.list».perl; # this is still an issue, though I suppose .list is fine enough for me right now
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 189d1c: OUTPUT«utf8.new(65, 66, 67)␤»
jnthn m: say Buf ~~ Positional # and this
lue r: say "ABC".encode».perl; say "ABC".encode.list».perl; # this is still an issue, though I suppose .list is fine enough for me right now
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«True␤»
rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 189d1c: OUTPUT«utf8.new(65, 66, 67)␤65 66 67␤»
TimToady m: say Buf.new(65,66,67)[*]
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«65 66 67␤»
TimToady m: say Buf.new(65,66,67)[*].WHAT 20:05
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«(Parcel)␤»
avuserow FROGGS: hoping to have one up tonight (in the 8 to 12 hour range), so I can collect feedback and testing results over the weekend. I have an afternoon of $dayjob between now and then, so I'm hoping I'm still up for it then. Looks promising regarding tests though.
20:05 raiph joined
FROGGS avuserow++ 20:05
avuserow moritz: at some point, possibly. I was planning on doing a PR for now and sorting out the logistical bits later
dalek blets: b6a6b2a | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-a-index.txt:
added tc and tclc
20:06 ventica_desktop left
jnthn avuserow++ # thanks for working on this 20:06
avuserow I just wanna show off the cool bits that #perl6++ has created :) 20:07
Ven: yeah I backlog online, partially for that reason 20:08
looks like modules-test is non-clean on parrot... I'll investigate and try to ask specific questions to get that resolved later 20:10
vendethiel doesn't even remember what he told avuserow++ :P
20:11 Sqirrel joined
timotimo 20:11
vendethiel welp, timotimo broke IRC 20:12
20:14 nbrown joined
avuserow vendethiel: you said you didn't see my messages :P 20:15
avuserow .oO( how appropriate ) 20:16
20:18 dmol joined 20:21 nbrown left
avuserow sigh. I'm seeing a segfault on parrot for jsonrpc's test, but it goes away when I run it under gdb. what does one do in this scenario? 20:23
20:23 lizmat left
rurban1 printf debugging usually 20:25
-t will not help I guess 20:26
dalek ast: d5f7eb6 | (David Warring [email@hidden.address] | integration/99problems-01-to-10.t:
is() => is_deeply(). Corrections/unfudges, Deleted one invalid test.
20:29 kurahaupo_mobile is now known as kurahaupo_
retupmoca avuserow: enable core dumps, examine dump file in gdb? 20:29
timotimo vendethiel: i'm sorry, just call the number on the back of your IRC and support should send you a free replacement 20:31
vendethiel timotimo: well, I've tried turning it off and on and it's not fixed, how come ? 20:32
timotimo well, is it plugged in? 20:37
vendethiel timotimo: oh, I forgot to switch on the multi-outlet, I'm sorry! thanks for your help, though. 20:38
timotimo sure no problem
# Hashes are actually arrays of Pairs (`Key => Value`), "flattened" to remove duplicated keys. ← this sounds weird to me 20:40
and arrays "start with @" and "stored in variable, they use `&`" sounds strange to my ears, too 20:41
maybe just put "their name" in the appropriate slot?
20:42 kaare__ left, brrt joined
dalek ast: c8a47be | (David Warring [email@hidden.address] | integration/99problems-01-to-10.t:
resurrected a test. removed guff
 20:43
timotimo vendethiel: it may be a good idea to mention that using non-autoquoted or colonpair-syntax named arguments gives you a positional parameter filled with a Pair object instead 20:44
which is a gotcha that probably surprises many people 20:45
with-mandatory-named(str => "My String"); #=> My String ← it ought to have a ! in the output, too
m: my $x = 42; sub mod() is rw { $x }; mod = 52; say $x 20:47
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/p2miM4Ioa0␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix = instead␤at /tmp/p2miM4Ioa0:1␤------> y $x = 42; sub mod() is rw { $x }; mod =⏏ 52; say $x␤»
timotimo m: my $x = 42; sub modifythis() is rw { $x }; modifythis = 52; say $x
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/udkr6xnvnU␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix = instead␤at /tmp/udkr6xnvnU:1␤------> modifythis() is rw { $x }; modifythis =⏏ 52; say $x␤»
timotimo ah
TimToady if you don't want it parsed as a listop, you have to declare it term:<mod> 20:48
timotimo because the paren-less form is more like a list prefix
listop, aye.
vendethiel: will you put some newlines into long comments or automatically hardwrap or something?
20:52 Sqirrel left
timotimo vendethiel: does <=> and leg seem like worth mentioning? 20:53
20:54 skids left
timotimo the sub-signature matching/unpacking thing seems like it's coming out of nowhere 20:55
i'm confused by the key-of sub, where does :qua($qua)) come from? it doesn't seem to be referenced in the example that actually calls key-of 20:56
vendethiel timotimo: they're mentioned deep down 20:58
(<=> and leg)
timotimo oh, ok 20:59
i don't know what exactly "even in a `if`" refers to for truthy-array
vendethiel "[22:48] <timotimo> vendethiel: will you put some newlines into long comments or automatically hardwrap or something?" < what does that mean ? 21:00
timotimo # Note : those are sorted lexicographically. `{ $^b / $^a }` is like `-> $a, b { $ b / $a }` 21:01
there's a stray space in "$ b"
the comments extend beyond the border of the code section for me
vendethiel ... uh ?
oh :(. that's sad
lue timotimo: what do you mean by "using non-autoquoted or colonpair-syntax named arguments gives you a positional parameter filled with a Pair object instead" ? 21:02
vendethiel lue: a(a => 1) and a('a' => 1) is not the same
timotimo m: sub surprise(*@a, *%b) { say @a; say %b; }; surprise(foo => 1); surprise("foo" => 1)
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«␤("foo" => 1).hash␤"foo" => 1␤().hash␤»
lue but how are colonpairs the same as not-autoquoted ? 21:03
vendethiel well, a(:a(1)) is the same as a(a => 1) but not the same as a('a' => 1)
21:03 rurban1 left
lue timotimo's statement implies that 'a' => 1 and :a(1) are the same, though 21:04
vendethiel no; the opposite
well, at least I'm explaining *the opposite*; sooo :P
lue I parse his statement as {'a' => 1} || {:a(1)} -> positional Pair 21:05
vendethiel m: sub f(:$a) { say $a }; f(:a(1)); # uh ? 21:06
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«1␤»
vendethiel lue: ^ doesn't seem to be the case, tho
timotimo sorry, i must have written that wrong
vendethiel yeah, that's what I thought :P. "I can't be that wrong !"
lue OK, I was wondering if there was some NYI weirdness when timotimo's statement didn't hold up.
timotimo yes, wtf did i do there %) 21:07
vendethiel timotimo: I didn't explain that difference, like I didn't explain flattening, because I want to think about it thoroughly before explaining them.
They're gonna make a *LOT* of people WAT. 21:08
timotimo mhm
we don't actually call perl6's object model "p6model", we call it "sixmodel" 21:11
masak partly because it's not limited to Perl 6. 21:12
vendethiel well, anyway, only non-auto-quoted gives a pair positional, right ?
timotimo: " the sub-signature matching/unpacking" <- alas, I need to explain that after explain some more things; soo ... 21:13
timotimo ok 21:14
vendethiel oops, I just realized I left "in this last paragraph" when explaining it, hehe 21:18
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vendethiel timotimo: I admit I don't know what i meant with that If thing >_> 21:22
vendethiel pushes his fixes 21:23
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raydiak good afternoon, #perl6 21:36
raiph \o 21:37
raydiak o/ what are you up to, raiph? anything interesting? 21:38
raiph glancing thru learnxinyminutes.com/docs/perl6/ 21:39
vendethiel raiph++ # putting up with my english all the time :p 21:40
raydiak ah nice... vendethiel, you did that? 21:41
vendethiel raydiak: I did :)
raydiak vendethiel++ :)
21:42 silug left
vendethiel .u ஓ 21:42
yoleaux U+0B93 TAMIL LETTER OO [Lo] (ஓ)
21:43 kivutar joined 21:45 btyler left
raiph vendethiel++ # user doc 21:47
vendethiel .u Ժ 21:48
yoleaux U+053A ARMENIAN CAPITAL LETTER ZHE [Lu] (Ժ)
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dalek p/dynquant: 85b29a4 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/jvm/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
support code blocks as quantifiers on jvm as well
 21:59
22:01 ssutch left, ssutch joined 22:02 ventica left, ssutch left, ssutch joined
timotimo FROGGS: good job! 22:03
FROGGS :o) 22:04
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dalek p: 3097e14 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/ (5 files):
allow code block in ** quantifiers, / foo ** { $a := 42 } /

In NQP the block can either provide a single item, which would be handled as foo**42, means that it must match exactly $item times. If the block provides a list [$min, $max], then the first two elems are used, like in foo**0..3. Note that the behaviour in rakudo is different, since we have Range objects there.		 22:20
p: 83e13b6 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/QRegex/P6Regex/Actions.nqp:
fix separator use with code block in quantifier
timotimo sweet! :)
masak FROGGS++
dalek p: 04cb706 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/parrot/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
support code blocks as quantifiers on parrot too
p: 0be70eb | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/moar/QAST/QASTRegexCompilerMAST.nqp:
cleanup dynquant on moarvm
p: 17cabc1 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/parrot/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
align to the standard about label prefix in dynquant
p: 0d5fabb | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/jvm/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
support code blocks as quantifiers on jvm as well
kudo/nom: b772b66 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/ (2 files):
allow code block in ** quantifiers, / foo ** { $three..$seven } /

The code block in a quantifier can either provide a range object that is used for min and maximum quantity, or it provides a single numeric item that is used to match exactly that many times.		 22:21
masak it just won't stop! :)
timotimo keep 'em coming! :)
dalek kudo/nom: a6b2af7 | (Tobias Leich)++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
bump nqp rev for dynquant implementation
FROGGS :P
masak vendethiel: reading learnxinyminutes.com/docs/perl6/ now 22:25
vendethiel: it's very good. thanks for doing this.
vendethiel thanks !
timotimo wow, masak is a fast reader!
masak vendethiel: the first line I reacted on was `when $_.chars > 50` -- I would probably not write the $_ there
vendethiel: I guess pedagogically it can be argued both ways, but... 22:26
vendethiel: ...pragmatically, one of the nice things with $_ is all the places it can be skipped :)
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Ven masak: that might be true, but I still think I need to explain it at some point. 22:26
masak *nod*
Ven alright, let me check the order I've left it in.
masak just letting you know it stood out. 22:27
lue masak: I personally tend to write $_ , I happen to like how it says "GENERIC VALUE HERE" :)
FROGGS gnight
masak beyond that, it's a pity that the syntax highlighting and the lines overflowing their parent container horizontally conspire against your excellent content.
timotimo aye
masak night, FROGGS++
timotimo gnite froggs 22:28
Ven 'night FROGGS :).
masak: I kinda need to explain it here. I'll do it better, though. It used to be before, explained with blocks, but I've moved them down, since I needed if/for/operators out of the way
timotimo maybe it'd be a neat thing to have a find, rename and ack that supports p6 regex
22:28 ventica joined
ventica . 22:29
lue timotimo: it'd be nice to get most things to dump their old P5-inspired regexes for P6-inspired ones :)
masak Ven: consider why you feel fine with `when /foo/` but not `when .chars > 50`
Ven: the former elides $_, the latter doesn't.
Ven I probably don't even explain the no-topic form, hmm.
timotimo lue: not that easy to do :P
lue still thinks // matchers shouldn't clobber $_, grumble grumble... 22:30
or, sorry, ~~
~~ is the one that's to blame for clobbering :)
Ven $_, "implicit variable" ? Not sure using "implicit argument" makes sense with given
masak lue: "clobbering" tends to imply that things aren't local and don't return to normal after the operation. 22:31
Ven: "the topic variable"
lue masak: "clobber" in the sense that I lose access to $_ within the // in $thing ~~ /match stuff {something with $_}/ 22:32
masak lue: well, you would anyway, since any block that mentions $_ will get it as an (implicit) parameter.
m: my &b = { say "OH HAI, $_ }; &b('world') 22:33
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/X9u_pWUKao␤Unable to parse expression in double quotes; couldn't find final '"' ␤at /tmp/X9u_pWUKao:1␤------> my &b = { say "OH HAI, $_ }; &b('world')⏏<EOL>␤ expectin…»
lue and IIRC no amount of OUTER:: or CALLER:: would get me the $_ I wanted to use.
masak m: my &b = { say "OH HAI, $_" }; &b('world')
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«OH HAI, world␤»
masak lue: ^
same rule holds with a block in a regex.
so it's not //'s fault, nor ~~'s.
lue r: given 42 { say "4242".match(/$_ ** 2/); say "4242" ~~ /$_ ** 2/ } 22:34
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 189d1c: OUTPUT«｢4242｣␤␤Nil␤»
lue I prefer .match's handling to // here
Ven masak: just commited what I think are better explanations :). 22:37
I'm happy, because I've only gotten good feedback so far
ventica Ven: If you want, I can just roast you... :P 22:38
masak Ven: the && and || results look wrong to me
m: say 3 && 4
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«4␤»
ventica "What a total CRAP tutorial! My God! Who wrote this piece of garbage???!?" 22:39
:P
masak Ven: notice that the result is actually not True, but 4.
m: say 0 || False
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«False␤»
masak Ven: that one is right.
Ven: do you make a distinction between True and truthy?
Ven I should.
masak aye, I think so. 22:40
ventica isn't 3 && 4 the same as all(3,4) ?
oh, that's single-ampersand
3 & 4
right?
masak ventica: right.
ventica: 3 & 4 is a junction, which "keeps" both values around.
ventica hmm
masak ventica: 3 && 4 evaluates to a single value (4).
ventica but isn't && a bool?
Ven no, not really 22:41
masak no, it's happy with any type.
ventica hits the books re. &&
masak it *treats* the values as booleans, for a while, but it keeps the originals.
in C, you'd see C "flatten" the original values to 0 or 1.
ventica aha
masak Perl (5 or 6) doesn't roll like that.
ventica 4 || 0 -----> 4 then? 22:42
Ven shudders thinking about php's behavior :P
ventica in P5, I only used "or"
I didn't like ||
timotimo Ven: how does php behave in that case?
masak ventica: heh, I ranted against that use of "or" the other day ;)
Ven timotimo: it only returns true or false. Never an operand
timotimo ah
masak ventica: if you only use "or", you have to use a whole lot of parentheses.
Ven which makes it 100 times less powerful than every other language therei s 22:43
masak PHP :(
lue I like to think that PHP is a good counterargument to anyone's complaints that Perl 6 shouldn't be making so many breaking changes :) 22:44
masak Ven: `-> $a, b { $ b / $a }` -- you got an extra space there, `$ b` 22:45
timotimo please elaborate?
masak Ven: and missing a `$` in the parameter list near `b`
Ven masak: timotimo++ reported that already. I fixed the spacing too, it's just not updated
itz_ hmmm should the p6doc source be less than 80 cols or should a formatter be used as part of the command I wonder?
lue timotimo: as I understand it, the underlying problem with PHP is that it never ever ever changes the behavior of old stuff, to be compatible or something.
itz_ or maybe people don't care about < 80 cols anymore?
Ven lue: oh, that's wrong, they've done it 22:46
timotimo lue: i thought you'd say something like "php breaks things all the time"
Ven I've worked on some phpbb code, from 2002-2006, and it's been breaking :P
ventica itz_: It will come back in vogue once we're all doing all doing our builds on our smartphones...
masak I can confirm that PHP breaks backwards compatibility. 22:47
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masak Ven: the /!\ is cute. I'll have to remember that. 22:49
m: say "\ "
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT« ␤»
Ven masak: heheheheh
BenGoldberg Ven, perl's '&&' operator can be thought of as being 'if' in disguise :)
lue Hm. Maybe I'm misremembering how PHP refuses to have consistency...
Ven I actually broke the document before because that line ended with /!\, and \" didn't quite work out 22:50
ventica programming in PHP is punishment IMO... I've only dabbled in it and ran away screaming
Ven what I don't like about our falsey stuff is that:
m: say so "0"; say so "0.0"; say so 0; say so 0.0
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«False␤True␤False␤False␤»
ventica It's like BASIC... but less logical 22:51
ventica doesn't really think BASIC is logical...
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masak Ven: I was sure you'd mention that postfixes have to come *directly* after the term, with no intervening whitespace... 22:52
Ven and that infixes need space
masak they don't, not in the general case.
Ven they should :P
masak but put them in, because the community says so.
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masak m: say 2+2 22:53
camelia rakudo-moar 189d1c: OUTPUT«4␤»
Ven yeah, sure, except for the basic stuff :)
lue The only place I don't generally put spaces around infix ops is .= , but that's because I see it as a special kind of method call, rather than an infix assignment
jnthn Fun fact: .= is parsed in two different ways depending on if you put whitespace around it or not. 22:54
masak Ven: '# needs the parentheses because it's a scalar' -- I felt confused by this one. sure you could name it &r and then just call it with `r;`, but that IMO has nothing to do with scalars.
Ven jnthn: I actually know that rule from a language that stole `.=` :P
ventica jnthn: One is concat and the other method invocation, correct? 22:55
lue ventica: nope
Ven masak: I'm not really considering "&r" to be a scalar here, though
ventica :\
lue ~= is concatenation
ventica oh oh yeah
see, there's my P5 brain... :P
22:55 nbrown_ left
masak Ven: just noting my confusion at the comment. 22:56
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masak Ven: it says '- Reduce meta-operator' but then there's no explanation of it. and the comments above make it seem like you'd introduce several meta-operators, but I see none. 22:57
Ven masak: taht's a todo
masak ok.
Ven There's only so much I did atm. Still a loooong way to go ...
jnthn ventica: iirc, one is parsed as a postfix (no space), the other as an infix meta-op 22:58
ventica hrm... will have to defer grokking that for now... 22:59
@jnthn
masak Ven: "`ff` (flip-flop) and `fff` (flip-flop)" -- that reads funny. 23:00
Ven: maybe call them "awk flip-flip" and "sed flip-flop" or something?
Ven hehe :p. copy paste fail
flip flop and flip flop range are the spec name
TimToady it's kinda funny to compare them to Ruby's .. and ... when Ruby stole those straight out of Perl 5 :) 23:01
ventica OT question for those that have been talking abt Perl6 outside of the US... how do you judge interest in Perl6 (and non-MS/Google languages generally) by non-US people versus US people?
Ven TimToady: I'm not *comparing* them. I'm saying "you might've seen them in"
masak Ven: I don't find the name "flip flop range" in S03.
Ven: do you have a reference for me? 23:02
TimToady understands there may be people coming from other langauges than Perl 5 too :)
languages even
Ven masak: maybe my memory is fuzzy? Maybe TimToady++ can confirm ?
TimToady Used to be I couldn't spell lingrist, and now I are one.
jnthn ventica: I do the vast majority of my Perl 6 talking outside of the US :)
masak Ven: don't change it to "flip flop range" until you can confirm it somehow ;) 23:03
Ven masak: well, they're both named "flipflop ranges", actually
lue
.oO(LAN gauges)
masak Ven: `for (1, 3, 60, 3, 40, 60) {` -- superstitious parens.
Ven but the fff one is "flipflop ranges (sed style)"
jnthn ventica: Even within Europe there's plenty of variety in technology choice.
masak Ven: that's why I suggested "awk/sed flipflop"
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jnthn ventica: Sweden is a bit of an MS hotbed. I teach C# here. Mostly I teach folks to write C# as if it were Perl 6, but don't tell them that... :P 23:04
masak Ven: EOF. thanks for some interesting reading.
jnthn ventica: Whereas Norway, just to the north, is far less MS Centric. Loads of Java...
Ven masak: general afterthought ? Not too hard to stomach ?
itz_ there seems to be most perl6 interest outside UK and US I'd guess
jnthn You can kinda see it in the Perl community sizes in various countries, also. 23:05
lue jnthn: isn't norway the number one world consumer of coffee? :P
jnthn And what conf talks happen
masak Ven: you're asking the wrong enthusiast :)
jnthn Like, Polish Perl Workshop was mostly Perl 6 talks :)
lue: I dunno, but Sweden is the number one at eating bananas
Ven masak: indeed. I'm a bit wary it's a looot of informations for a newcomer ...
masak Ven: that's not necessarily a bad thing. 23:06
Ven: I like that you have many concrete examples along the way.
Ven: some of which I hadn't seen before.
Ven++
Ven really :P ?
masak yes, I can tell you've spent some time on this.
Ven (I meant WRT "some of which I hadn't seen before") 23:07
ventica jnthn: thanks for that info... I spend almost all my time in the US and whenever I travel abroad the #1 thing that strikes me is just how much of an echo chamber I live in... 23:08
masak Ven: I liked that [5] came out meaning 5 ** 5 :)
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masak 'night, #perl6 23:10
TimToady HELLO! Hello...hello...ₕₑₗₗₒ
Ven 'night :)
ventica masak: night o/ 23:13
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carlin uhhh.... 23:38
I think rand() on OpenBSD won't return two odd or even numbers in a row 23:39
is that normal?
23:39 thou left
ventica carlin: I don't know if it's normal, but it's definitely wrong :P 23:40
dalek p: 53769e5 | jnthn++ | tools/build/MOAR_REVISION:
Get Moar with extop changes, leak fixes.
 23:42
kudo/nom: 506aae5 | jnthn++ | / (2 files):
Get latest MoarVM; remove nasty hack in ext ops.
 23:43
timotimo this commit also removes a nasty typo 23:44
carlin I might be completely off-base 23:45
but it does definitely look like the first call of rand() is odd or even, and the second call is always the opposite
and mp_rand calls rand() twice
and adds them 23:46
I think
timotimo that seems like 1 bit of randomness that's entirely predictable :(
does the man page say anything about that?
carlin so the result will of rand() + rand() will always be odd
timotimo aye
carlin and that might explain why this happens:
> say nqp::rand_I(2, Int) xx 40 23:47
1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
> say nqp::rand_I(10, Int) xx 40 23:48
9 7 3 5 9 1 1 7 3 7 3 1 1 3 1 7 1 1 5 7 7 3 5 5 1 9 3 9 1 3 9 9 5 7 3 1 1 1 9 3
who needs even numbers anyway 23:49
jnthn carlin: groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp...ktGSwi2EkJ may be of interest 23:52
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jnthn rosettacode.org/wiki/Random_number_...ncluded)#C also 23:53
timotimo someone could write a mersenne twister implementation; it's in the most wanted anyway :) 23:54
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ventica BTW, I ran into a rand() bug like this on a diff project when inadvertently using float rand() instead of int rand() 23:58
jnthn Sleep time; 'night
ventica worth looking into
timotimo gnite jnthn!
ventica jnthn o/

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