»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 25 June 2013.
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jercos netstar: are you doing %hash<$scalar>? 00:02
netstar yessir
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jercos try %hash{$scalar} 00:03
;)
netstar lol
this IS a steep learning curve
worked!
raydiak huh...feather broken? perlcabal.org was down and now shows the pugscode content, while pugscode.org shows feather.perl6.nl's content 00:05
jercos little early for april fools' day
raydiak: they look fine over here. 00:06
raydiak ah, thanks...flushing my dns cache will probably fix whatever momentary hiccup I picked up, then
netstar okay night all!
raydiak g'night netstar 00:07
netstar thanks for help
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ugexe is there a script for creating .deb of a rakudo build? 01:12
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japhb wonders if apt-get source from unstable would do what you need 01:18
apt-get source rakudo, that is 01:19
japhb doesn't have unstable on this box to check
eww, old: packages.debian.org/sid/rakudo 01:20
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adu grr I keep getting a string 05:35
I have a sub sub build-struct-declarator(%obj) { ... }
which needs an associative
and I'm passing it an associative
but it's receiving a string 05:36
why?
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cognominal g'morning vendethiel 05:42
TimToady adu: how are you calling it? 05:44
adu pastie.org/9731507 05:45
and
pastie.org/9731508
TimToady well, then $<declarator>.ast isn't returning a hash; what does the make look like in declarator? 05:47
adu pastie.org/9731508
TimToady that looks like it's making a hash; what's the error message? 05:51
and are you sure that's the multi declarator that is really matching? 05:52
other than that, you might pull out the ast before doing the make and looking at it with .perl or so 05:54
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adu pastie.org/9731545 05:56
I suppose I could 05:57
TimToady those can't be from the binding operation
it says in numeric context
more I can't tell because I don't have your line numbers 05:58
adu binding?
TimToady the signature to the function, associating the ast with %obj
adu ah, 886 is line 10 in pastie.org/9731551#10
TimToady that's not a numeric context, so the binding seems to be happening just fine, but something is happening later in the function
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TimToady that's really strange, there are no numeric contexts there 06:01
but I'd suspect the 'rest' component is not correct, maybe
adu I'm confused
TimToady well, say $stuff.perl is your friend 06:02
unless, of course, you're using stdout for data
the note works better than say 06:03
*then
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TimToady wanders away for a bit 06:04
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moritz good morning 06:10
JimmyZ good morning 06:11
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cognominal good morning everyone 06:15
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JimmyZ good morning everytwo 06:20
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cognominal every* even 06:25
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smls morning 07:36
raydiak \o 07:37
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lizmat good morning, #perl6! 07:48
PSA: in about 4 hours I will start the work on the 2014.11 release
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moritz \o 07:56
it took me a while to understand that "PSA" wasn't "Phase-Sensitive Amplifier" here :-) 07:57
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lizmat :-) 07:59
moritz o/
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FROGGS morning 08:21
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lizmat FROGGS o/ 09:06
FROGGS hi lizmat :o)
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lizmat just committed github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/df...f28b17185f 09:35
afk&
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arnsholt What's up with dalek these days? 10:13
timotimo fell down some stairs, can't get back up 10:14
arnsholt Awww
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FROGGS dalek: /o/ 10:22
nwc10 feather3+- # having a ssh banner on IPv6 that tells me where dalek is running 10:26
feather3+- # no AAAA record (this might be deliberate)
(and no reverse DNS)
yes, I would like a pony too
moritz I hope to have proper IPv6 for the feather successor 10:29
nwc10 there's clearly enough IPv6 working to connect to it, and for it to get to freenode
so the hard bits appear to have been done
perl6.org has no AAAA record 10:30
:-(
insufficiently six-like 10:31
ENOT6
timotimo such nonsix 10:32
moritz yesterday I ordered the new hardware for the feather successor, but haven't received an order confirmation yet 10:35
we need a name 10:36
timotimo .o( plume )
masak .oO( leather ) 10:37
masak .oO( ticklish ) 10:38
moritz acquires a domain name, and then thinks about the host name(s) 10:40
"www" for the host with the websites and "unsafe" for the evalbot(s)
masak .oO( quill ) 10:41
moritz how to the call the main community server, on which people run their IRC sessions and build rakudo etc?
masak 'main'?
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masak or 'community'? 10:41
moritz boring
masak: community will appear in the domain name, in one form or another
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masak ok. 10:42
moritz 'scratch'?
or '42' maybe
masak 'tuit'? 10:43
moritz that's nice too
but is it round? :-)
masak 'diffy'? 10:45
'karma'? 10:46
jnthn 'hack'
...though outsiders may take it as a challenge :P 10:47
nwc10 'hack' is probably a bad idea, given Facebook
jnthn ?
nwc10 and PHP-!7
masak 'phaser'?
moritz 'dev' # but boring
nwc10 s/probably/possibly/
masak 'pointy'?
jnthn nwc10: I...don't think that's going to be most people's association :P 10:48
moritz dev-but-boring.thedomain.org :-)
masak in appreciation of au++, either 'trust' or 'anarchy'
nwc10 in whcih case, yes, "hack", but I wonder what the clueless will dow with reverse DNS
anarchy - I like that
that's by far the most fun suggestion so far 10:49
masak 'anarki' is easier to spell, and Swedish.
jnthn Is '-Ofun' a valid name? :) 10:50
But yeah, I like anarchy too :)
moritz jnthn: I fear not, but ofun is
masak 'thunk'
jnthn
.oO( I use this server ofun... )
moritz but people will be surprised when told to be civil on the anarchy server :-)
smls 'promenade' 10:52
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FROGGS jnthn: you already did the reupload? :o) 11:05
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timotimo developersdevelopersdevelopersdeve...munity.org 11:16
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lizmat 'thisisyour' (boring) 11:18
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timotimo this-is-your-boring 11:20
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jpve Hi all, I would like to add two modules to the ecosystem. 11:22
Is it really as simple as adding the URLs to the META.list file of the github.com/perl6/ecosystem repo?
tadzik yes 11:23
jpve Or do I need to do some other things as well?
tadzik no
:)
jpve Ok, thanks tadzik!
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timotimo well, your repository does need to have the META.info, but i'm suspecting you already have that in place :) 11:29
and it's good style to have a test suite that has some chance of failing at all when stuff goes wrong 11:30
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jpve @timotime: I added both, but thanks for the reminder :) 11:37
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moritz jpve: what's your github ID? 11:38
jpve jpve :D
moritz jpve: you have an invitation to the 'perl6' team in the 'perl6' org, which will give you direct push access to the ecosystem repo 11:39
jpve: (and a few other useful repos)
jpve Ok, thanks! 11:40
timotimo thank you for contributing :)
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dalek osystem: 5552882 | (Jorn van Engelen)++ | META.list:
Add Net::Packet
 12:09
osystem: 2237b4c | (Jorn van Engelen)++ | META.list:
Add Net::Pcap
osystem: 9d6fc35 | jimmy++ | META.list:
Merge pull request #36 from jpve/master

META.list: Add Net::Packet and Net::Pcap
timotimo FROGGS: what's the status WRT :auth<github:timo> and stuff for modules and classes and stuff?
oooh, dalek is back
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jpve Want to check if my META.info's are correct by doing a build-project-list.pl in modules.perl6.org 12:12
But github just won't check public_repos on my API token ...
Which is apperently needed to build the list
FROGGS timotimo: can we talk about that this evening? 12:13
tadzik jpve: you can ask panda to try to install it from a local directory 12:15
it'll read and verify meta.info
jpve Ah ok, thanks for the pointer, thats much simpler indeed :)
timotimo sure 12:18
timotimo will be driving the car around for a big chunk of $day
FROGGS timotimo: or in short: panda does not work yet with CUR::Installation, its PERL6LIB is wrong IIRC
timotimo that's good enough for me :) 12:19
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dalek kudo/nom: 553e633 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/announce/2014.11.md:
Initial version 2014.11 release announcement
 12:25
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Ven lizmat++ 12:41
"Force calling method for <.foo> even if sub foo exists" not sure I get that?
m: sub foo($a:){0}; class A{method foo {1}}; say A.new.foo 12:42
camelia rakudo-moar dfa0d2: OUTPUT«1␤»
lizmat Ven: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7b...63ad10cb26 12:43
Ven ooh! thanks :)
Ven has been mostly working on a monolithic rails app lately, not much toying with perl6 at $work
Ven not only wants his computer to commit suicide, but would appreciate some commits on his suicide as well :P 12:45
lizmat :-) 12:46
FROGGS lizmat: when do you think you'll finally cut the release? 12:51
we probably still have to fix panda on windows (path issues)
brb 12:52
Ven should try to compile rakudo on windows at some point... 12:53
Oh wait, I don't have to anymore :-)
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lizmat FROGGS: is this about leaking some of the work that is now in the newio branch into nom? 12:54
or is this something else
anyway, I'm now starting testing on moar=master, nqp=master 12:55
Ven (though if I can help without having to install visual studio,I'll gladly do so)
FROGGS lizmat: I am not sure what the cause is... on windows it helped for panda (file::find) to canonicalize the paths in chdir and friends, but this produces spectest fails on linux 12:59
lizmat: you can test with the moar revision that's specified in nqp, since that already points to 2014.11 13:00
lizmat do you have a paste with Win32 errors?
ah, so NQP is already at release level ?
FROGGS (not that moar HEAD makes any difference, but still :o)
yes, I bumped moar revision and parrot revision to current releases 13:01
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lizmat FROGGS++ :-) 13:01
FROGGS lizmat: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-11-15#i_9667282 13:02
lizmat: I'll be quite busy for the next five or six hours... but then I will have time for panda@win32, if that's not too late 13:03
dalek kudo/nom: a50bb2e | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/announce/2014.11.md:
Add paragraph about problems on OS X in release
 13:04
lizmat FROGGS: that would be excellent and not too late at all :-)
FROGGS what a relief :o) 13:05
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Ven what's going on here, vendethiel ? 13:15
rurban isnt' the moar os x problem a wrong free?
lizmat rurban: sometimes during building, you may get that, yes 13:16
actually, at a rakudo install party, one of the guys had that problem with the released version
the only difference was that he was not on the latest Mavericks 13:17
rurban I'm a bit too busy now, but hope to look into it later
lizmat well, maybe you can help anyway:
does this ring a bell? note: passing argument to parameter 'buffer' here 13:18
rurban I found parrot gc problems also, with non-standard gc's, which are faster, but broken
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lizmat ok, this is weird 13:37
if I just compile MoarVM from its own repo, I don't get any warnings *at all*
oops, mambm 13:38
FROGGS mambm?
lizmat (I didn't look back far enough :-(
me and my big mouth
FROGGS ahh :o)
hehe
Ven ETOOMUCHACRONYMS :) 13:39
dalek kudo/nom: bcdf988 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/announce/2014.11.md:
s/Octover/November/ woolfy++
 13:40
FROGGS Ven: ETMA? 13:42
Ven *g*
masak ooh, a release is brewing? 13:53
amazing that Helsinki wasn't taken. lizmat++ 13:54
Ven yep :-)
woolfy Helsinki offered us a nice hackathon (where 7 people installed MoarVM/NQP/MoarVM during a session with lizmat++ and pnu++), Finnish & Swedish whisky, an alt-party on a boat, lots of cd-shops and much more fun. 13:56
Therefore Helsinki. :-)
Ven woolfy: I guess you liked the whisky the best :P
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woolfy (I didn't mention the Danish whisky that we bought in the tax-free shop in Copenhagen, which was excellent) 13:57
Ven: the Finnish whisky was very nice, the Swedish whisky is more something for cocktails... 13:58
dalek kudo/nom: 61f3d44 | (Lucas Buchala)++ | Configure.pl:
Align Configure.pl options in help text
 14:01
kudo/nom: b8246f1 | lizmat++ | Configure.pl:
Merge pull request #331 from lucasbuchala/configure-help

Align Configure.pl options in help text
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perltricks hey everyone in case you missed it, I've just published an introduction to Perl 6 one liners on perltricks.com: perltricks.com/article/136/2014/11/...one-liners 14:15
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perltricks And if you feel like helping promote it, I'm @perltricks on twitter. thanks 14:16
moritz perltricks++
perltricks one other thing that might be of interest: Sinan's article on compiling Perl 6 with Visual Studio perltricks.com/article/135/2014/11/...tudio-2013
masak ooh 14:17
perltricks++
perltricks moritz: thanks. Planning to ramp up the Rakudo
!
masak perltricks: `for (lines) { say $_ }` doesn't look idiomatic to me. I'd prefer it as `for lines() { say $_ }` 14:18
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masak perltricks: I think it creates more confusion that it saves to put the parens around `lines` a la Perl 5. 14:18
perltricks masak: noted, good point thanks
also, just want to say thanks to everyone who contributed to the open source book: github.com/sillymoose/Perl6-One-Liners the book will stay on FreeBSD license, so if it can be re-purposed into a 'official' docs or whatever
I'm still polishing it, and now working on WWW one liners. 14:19
masak perltricks++ # again
[Coke] I like how the "build perl 6 with visual studio" didn't really have anything specific to use visual studio, just the standard config line.
(actually like, not sarcastic like. :)
perltricks if you're listed as a contributor and want to change your name / handle and or include a link on your name, just let me know 14:20
FROGGS perltricks++
lizmat perltricks++ :-)
perltricks perl6 community++
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perltricks [Coke]: yeah kind of great that it "just works" 14:21
[Coke] I blame jnthn :) 14:23
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Ven "PL expressiveness is in what it lets you forbid as well as what it allows to do." 14:29
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masak Ven: do you have an example? or is it just a general statement, which may or may not be inhabited? 14:32
PerlJam perltricks++ because you can never have too much karma :)
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Ven masak: very simple example 14:32
masak enjoys the very simple 14:33
Ven m: sub f(::T $a --> Array[T]) { $a, 1, 2, 3 }; f("a");
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«Type check failed for return value; expected 'Array[T]' but got 'Parcel'␤ in any return_error at src/vm/moar/Perl6/Ops.nqp:649␤ in sub f at /tmp/4AnlWK2XBI:1␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/4AnlWK2XBI:1␤␤»
Ven the example still stands.
can I forbid it to have elements with a different type than the collection's? (while still retaining the ability to have hetero-collections if I need to) 14:34
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Ven masak: you can also take jnthn's thingie that used macros to forbid invalid states 14:35
(which usually means you need ADTs to model the different states your state machine has)
masak I don't think Perl 6's typing is static enough to forbid things such as the above. that is, Perl 6 doesn't really do any type inference that has more than one step in it.
Ven this one doesn't have any inference in 14:36
masak sure it does. you have to infer things between "a", Str, ::T, $a, and Array[T] 14:37
Ven I don't see any inference here. You might argue there's type "computation", but certainly no inference 14:38
PerlJam m: sub f(Str $a --> Array[Str]) { Array[Str].new($a, $a, $a) }; f("hi");
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«Type check failed for return value; expected 'Array[Str]' but got 'Array[Str]'␤ in any return_error at src/vm/moar/Perl6/Ops.nqp:649␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/ZtdoCDycoB:1␤␤»
Ven that's a pretty well-known bug 14:39
masak Ven: whatever *name* you choose to give to it, I don't think Perl 6 does it.
Ven I certainly hope perl6 will be able to hold those invariants in 2/3 years:)
PerlJam yeah, it just makes me a little giddy that it tells me that it got what it expected, but failed anyway
Ven masak: I'm not the one naming things. It's like saying java has type inference because "a.b().c()" works. That's like C#'s var. 14:40
masak Ven: in particular, I've never ever seen any plans to have a list of stuff without a declared type be inferred/computed as a particular nominal type.
Ven: it's not in the spec. it doesn't have a champion. I'm not sure it *can* work.
Ven masak: not sure what you mean. I don't know of a language with generics that doesn't allow me to `List<T> fn(T elem)` to typecheck
PerlJam or, put another way ... even C++ does that ;) 14:41
Ven but, yeah, I guess you can argue it's not an "array". maybe that should be "List"
might also be problem because of the way typed lists are implemented.
masak no, you're misunderstanding the fundamental missing piece here. but nevermind. 14:42
Ven PerlJam: C++ has... somewhat of a type inference, I guess. It doesn't just look at the return type
masak: No, I understand that I'm returning "a list"
masak m: sub foo(--> Array[Int]) { [1, 2, 3] }; say foo
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«Type check failed for return value; expected 'Array[Int]' but got 'Array'␤ in any return_error at src/vm/moar/Perl6/Ops.nqp:649␤ in sub foo at /tmp/ySXALfdFvZ:1␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/ySXALfdFvZ:1␤␤»
masak Ven: does that help?
Ven I consider that to be an implementation detail :-)
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masak then we fundamentally disagree, I think. 14:43
moritz Ven: the difference between C++ and Perl 6 is that in C++, the compile-time known type must satisfy a type constraint; in Perl 6, it suffices that the runtime-type satisfies a constraint
masak it's... not spec, exactly. but it's not gonna change either.
moritz so in Perl 6 it's totally valid to write sub f($x) returns Int { 2 * $x }
masak Ven: what moritz++ said.
Ven moritz: it's not even the problem here. it doesn't fail at runtime either
moritz Ven: then we're talking about a different "here" 14:44
Ven: I've seen lots of examples scroll by that do bail out at run time
Ven moritz: I'm talking about the ::T -> List[T] (or Array[T])
colomon m: sub f($x) returns Int { 2 * $x }; f(24.2)
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«Type check failed for return value; expected 'Int' but got 'Rat'␤ in any return_error at src/vm/moar/Perl6/Ops.nqp:649␤ in sub f at /tmp/rL5w8D5jGh:1␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/rL5w8D5jGh:1␤␤»
moritz Ven: and which example didn't fail at runtime? 14:45
Ven moritz: all those that exposed a bug in rakudo (i.e. PerlJam's)
masak Ven: I think I may see what you're saying -- you're talking specifically about generic types "scoped" under a type capture?
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masak Ven: all of which could in theory be statically checked? 14:46
Ven masak: basically, yes.
masak got it.
that's... an interesting idea, yes.
sounds like an extra opportunity to do cool inferences at compile time.
moritz still doesn't see any example that Ven refers to
masak hadn't thought of that before.
Ven nice :-) 14:47
moritz: look at PerlJam's example
moritz Ven: which one?
Ven moritz: the one that failed with identical types, for example
moritz Ven: can you please repeat it? or link to a line in the logs?
Ven m: sub f(Str $a --> Array[Str]) { Array[Str].new($a, $a, $a) }; f("hi"); # moritz
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«Type check failed for return value; expected 'Array[Str]' but got 'Array[Str]'␤ in any return_error at src/vm/moar/Perl6/Ops.nqp:649␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/1NHO_YRK7q:1␤␤»
moritz Ven: but that does fail at run time
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Ven moritz: I definitely consider that a bug 14:48
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moritz Ven: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-11-20#i_9693534 that's what confused me 14:48
Ven: you were talking about something that doesn't fail at runtime
Ven: now I'm looking for an example that doesn't fail at runtime, and you give me one that incorrectly fails at run time 14:49
moritz thinks that he and Ven are on incompatible wave lengths today
Ven moritz: I mean – incorrectly OR doesn't fail at runtime here :) my bad
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Ven masak: do you think this could *possibly* be done? 14:56
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masak I won't say "yes" to that until I see some kind of RFC that follows through on all the details. 14:59
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masak but since it's basically improving the error reporting by bumping some errors from runtime to compile time, I'm kind of optimistic. 15:00
I don't see any immediate stoppers, save SMOP.
Zheglov perl6: sub infix:«MYPLUS»(*@a) is assoc('list') { [+] @a ; } ; sub prefix:«MYMINUS»($a) is looser(&infix:<MYPLUS>) { -$a ; } ; say (MYMINUS 1 MYPLUS 2 MYPLUS 3) ; 15:01
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤MVMArray: Can't pop from an empty array␤»
..rakudo-parrot b8246f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤QRPA: Can't pop from an empty array!␤»
nanis Hello everyone. New here. Over at Reddit, raiph suggested I might be able to help with Unicode and/or Turkish issues. I am *very* unfamiliar with the codebase. Is there a specific place I should look?
moritz nanis: is it a Perl 6 code base? 15:02
masak nanis: first off, welcome.
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masak Zheglov: I think something is simply NYI with `is assoc('list')` 15:03
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raiph nanis++ # for "Building Perl 6 with Visual Studio 2013" (perltricks.com/article/135/2014/11/...udio-2013) 15:07
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Ven masak: Right. It's a bit of a... tyoe "promotion"? 15:07
It's a bit like scala (ugh) does (allows to infer List[Any] or List[Int])
Zheglov perl6: sub prefix:«MYMINUS»($a) { -$a ; } ; sub infix:«MYPLUS»(*@a) is assoc('list') is tighter(&prefix:<MYMINUS>) { [+] @a ; } ; say (MYMINUS 1 MYPLUS 2 MYPLUS 3) ; 15:08
camelia rakudo-{parrot,moar} b8246f: OUTPUT«-6␤»
Zheglov This equivalent one works if you swap around
raiph I left a couple comments for nanis (Sinar Unur) starting at www.reddit.com/r/perl/comments/2mnv...13/cm6h23u # for moritz, masak, others 15:10
PerlJam "radical grapheme-by-default approach"? Is it really that radical? 15:12
moritz PerlJam: it is, in the sense that it's a pretty deep change, and to the best of my knowledge, nobody has done it before (not even we :-) 15:13
nwc10 I'm not aware of anyone else doing it, but I've not been looking
it's significant, because it's O(n) if you don't do something clever (and your internal encoding is fixed width) 15:14
and O(n**2) if your internal encoding is UTF-8 15:15
masak higher powers are better, right? :P
moritz masak: for 0 < n < 1, yes :-) 15:16
PerlJam maybe it's just that my expectations are a bit off by being here so much, but it seems to me that that's a "natural evolution" of programming languages (especially those designed by a linguist :-) 15:17
masak moritz: heh.
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masak PerlJam: I have something of the same feeling -- given how sane NFG is, it's kinda weird that other languages aren't already doing it. 15:17
PerlJam masak: exactly. 15:18
moritz masak: we don't actually know how sane it is until we've tried it
PerlJam masak: The difference is probably that very few other language designers are looking at the long now.
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masak *nod* 15:22
moritz one thing I'm asking myself from time to time is how bad it'll be that Buf -> Str -> Buf won't round-trip anymore for non-NFC UTF-8
I'm thinking of non-ASCII file names on OS X, for example
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colomon …. is Str expected to automatically normalize or something? 15:23
jnthn The N in NFG stands for "normal" 15:24
PerlJam Is today release day?!? The month went by far too quickly.
jnthn PerlJam: I know. :( I don't even know if I got a patch in this lst month...
[Coke] odd. just saw this ona bamboo build server that I'm running a work job on:
E:\tools\Perl64 (in the path)
nanis Apologies, my network connection disappeared all of a sudden. Way to make an entrance. Catching up with what happened while I could not communicate.
lizmat PerlJam: yes, today is release day
nanis BTW, thank you raiph.
colomon jnthn: the idea that certain filenames might not be representable using Str any more is somewhat worrisome (if I'm understanding moritz correctly) 15:25
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masak 'night, #perl6 15:26
PerlJam masak: sleep well!
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FROGGS colomon: everything will be representable as Str, also with NFG 15:27
it is just when you convert it back to a Buf, you cannot be sure about the ordering of the things of a grapheme cluster 15:28
except, we make it keep an order
moritz: that does also apply to NFC, no? 15:29
moritz FROGGS: nope
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moritz FROGGS: every normalization loses the original form 15:30
nanis I know a tiny amount of Perl6, but I am OK with Perl5 and C and some Java. The easiest way from me to get my feet wet might be to look at some tests.
moritz FROGGS: and on file systems, which operate on the byte level, the conversion back to Buf doesn't necessarily reproduce the same bytes 15:31
PerlJam lizmat: I'm looking at the announcement ... the one about <.foo> is regarding grammars, right?
moritz nanis: that's how I started too
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nanis Are there any specific parts that would benefit from a look? 15:31
lizmat PerlJam: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7b...63ad10cb26
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FROGGS nanis: tests in RT that are tagged testneeded 15:31
moritz FROGGS: so even with one base character + one modifier, NFG and NFC will produce a composed form (if exists), and conversion back to Buf will not round-trip
nanis FROGGS: Thank you.
I am going to take a look. 15:32
PerlJam right, got it.
FROGGS moritz: we could keep lists of the parts of a grapheme cluster though, Justin Case
PerlJam lizmat++ thanks
FROGGS might not be the fasted what we can do though 15:33
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PerlJam moritz: do they *need* to round-trip? 15:33
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moritz PerlJam: if a file name is in a decomposed form, and the not-quite-round-trip produces the composed form, you'll get an ENOENT 15:35
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moritz PerlJam: ... with a file name that looks *exactly* like the one that 'ls' shows you 15:35
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FROGGS yeah, I also think that this can steal you a buttox 15:38
though, if you are in such a weird situation you might just work with Bufs only
moritz and curse the stupid P6 developer that all of the IO::Path operations are Str-based, and you have to reinvent them 15:39
FROGGS exactly :o) 15:40
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arnsholt moritz: That's a very good point regarding file names 15:51
It'll work fine on OS X (or rather, HFS+) though. It's *nix FSes that'll have trouble I think
Since HFS+ (and NTFS I think) do their own normalisation of filenames 15:52
raiph nanis: fyi, rt shortcuts rakudo.de/needstest and rakudo.de/hastest # moritz++ 15:53
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nanis raiph: Yup, I am there, browsing through right now. Thanks. 15:54
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Ulti so when I use tr/// I get a StrDistance back, the before and after are populated but I get a Method distance not found when I try and get at that? is this just a NYI? 15:57
oh its private 15:58
smls m: $_ = "foo"; say +tr/o/u/ 15:59
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«2␤»
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Ulti ahh so its just Int that gets it for you 15:59
nice
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raiph nanis: S99:LTA in case you were wondering :) 16:01
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S99.html#LTA_in_c...ndering_:) 16:02
raiph er, S99:LTA
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S99.html#LTA
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nanis raiph: ;-) 16:04
Ulti smls++ for that :P I assume one day someone is going to benchmark the ++ 16:05
carlin m: my $x = 18 / 0; say $x > 42000000 16:07
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«True␤»
ugexe 42000000 mannn
PerlJam m: my $x = 18 / 0; say $x 16:08
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«Type check failed for return value; expected 'Int' but got 'Failure'␤ in any return_error at src/vm/moar/Perl6/Ops.nqp:649␤ in method floor at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:11254␤ in method Str at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:11275␤ in method gist at src/ge…»
PerlJam huh 16:09
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FROGGS Int-eresting 16:09
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nanis Need to go right now, but thanks for the guidance. Will be back with questions. 16:10
Ulti its because you get a Rat rather than doing the division at that point
FROGGS ahh, delayed calculation, aye 16:11
Ulti once you do anything with it you get the exception
apart from say
*shrug*
PerlJam Ulti: not *anything* and evidenced by carlin's original code
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Ulti aye 16:11
FROGGS m: my $x = 18 / 0; say $x < 42000000 16:12
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«False␤»
FROGGS m: my $x = 18 / 0; say $x + 1
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«Type check failed for return value; expected 'Int' but got 'Failure'␤ in any return_error at src/vm/moar/Perl6/Ops.nqp:649␤ in method floor at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:11254␤ in method Str at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:11275␤ in method gist at src/ge…»
Ulti hmmm thats odd
FROGGS m: say Failure > 42000000
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Failure in numeric context in block <unit> at /tmp/U2YHqDLyHj:1␤␤False␤»
Ulti if you do say after getting the exception you get the full stack trace and stuff
PerlJam It's looks like it's just the comparators that have problems.
FROGGS that does not make too much sense
Ulti so the say cant be doing the calculation
TimToady it's just really odd that < isn't forcing the calculation 16:13
carlin m: my $x = 18 / 0; say $x > 9e999999999999999999999999999
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«True␤»
carlin m: my $x = 18 / 0; say $x > 9e9999999999999999999999999999
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camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«False␤» 16:13
moritz m: say (18/0).bridge
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«No such method 'bridge' for invocant of type 'Rat'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/QpLDCPOYFS:1␤␤»
Ulti lol
moritz m: say (18/0).Bridge
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
moritz m: say (18/0).Num
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
PerlJam ah
moritz m: say (18/0).Real
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«Type check failed for return value; expected 'Int' but got 'Failure'␤ in any return_error at src/vm/moar/Perl6/Ops.nqp:649␤ in method floor at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:11254␤ in method Str at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:11275␤ in method gist at src/ge…»
Ulti now you know the interval where / 0 exists then
moritz .Real/.Num vs .Bridge 16:14
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TimToady m: say (-18/0) < 0 16:14
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«True␤»
TimToady that's kind of assuming we approached 0 from the north side 16:15
PerlJam looks like we've got a Bridge too far
;) 16:16
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Zheglov perl6: sub infix:«+»(*@a) is assoc('list') { say @a ; 1 ; } ; 1 + 2 + 3 16:33
camelia rakudo-{parrot,moar} b8246f: OUTPUT«1 2␤1 3␤»
Zheglov perl6: sub infix:«X»(*@a) is assoc('list') { say @a ; 1 ; } ; 1 X 2 X 3 16:34
camelia rakudo-{parrot,moar} b8246f: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
Zheglov why are they different? 16:35
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TimToady perhaps because + is already defined as left assoc, while X is already defined as list assoc 16:36
try using operators that don't exist already 16:37
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TimToady but it does look a bit like a bug that you can't override that for a local operator 16:38
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FROGGS[mobile] "calling an operator" makes me think I have to watch The Matrix again 16:40
Zheglov TimToady: any pointers where to look (I'm very new to Perl)? 16:41
TimToady this might not be easy...since addition is so primitive, it might be defined in the bootstrap 16:42
why do you wish to redefine + ? 16:43
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TimToady it's also possible that the optimizer is assuming nobody has redefined + 16:44
Zheglov trying to make the primitive operators for my class be `assoc('list')` 16:45
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TimToady operators don't really belong to classes in p6; they belong to the current lexical scope 16:49
so even if you could do that in your scope, you couldn't force someone else's operators to behave that way without them helping 16:50
also, we don't force you to overload existing operators like C++ does; we encourage people to define new operators instead, and leave the old ones with consistent semantics 16:51
PerlJam Zheglov: What is your class? Is it some sort of numeric-ish thing, or something else? 16:52
TimToady also, I find your semicolon style rather difficult to read, but that's just an unrelated comment :)
awwaiid TimToady: I thought you could also do an infix method? I'm probably just not remembering correctly 16:53
TimToady and to add to PerlJam's question, what benefit do you see in making + into a list associative operator? 16:55
colomon (and note that if you do that, you will probably break normal uses of + ) 16:56
osfameron but only within that lexical scope, so it's ok (if a bit weird) surely? 16:57
Zheglov PerlJam: Just playing around with p6
colomon osfameron: only within that scope, sure.
dalek rl6-roast-data: caacf44 | coke++ | / (5 files):
today (automated commit)
Zheglov TimToady: how to write it better? 17:00
[Coke] OSX daily runs: parrot still the only clean build. moar getting worse. 17:01
PerlJam Zheglov: give more information about what you're doing and why you're doing it :)
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TimToady I'd probably write it like this, to make clear that I'm trying to override the built-in: 17:02
m: only sub infix:<+>(*@a) is assoc('list') { say @a; 1; }; 1 + 2 + 3
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«1 2␤1 3␤»
TimToady but it still runs into the fact that it ignores the assoc trait
m: only sub infix:<plus>(*@a) is assoc('list') { say @a; 1; }; 1 plus 2 plus 3 17:03
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
Zheglov TimToady: I see, thought you mean semicolon as in `;` 17:05
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PerlJam Zheglov: I'm pretty sure he did. Putting spaces on both sides of the semicolon is a little weird. It kind of loses its meaning as "punctuation" and becomes more "wordy" (at least for me) 17:06
Zheglov PerlJam: OK, got it. 17:09
PerlJam: I'm playing with symbolic math expressions where there are many `+` operations 17:12
In that case it would be more useful (for me) to get an operator and list of arguments 17:13
PerlJam but why overload + for it? Seems like a recipe for strange behavior when you mix it with the normal math ops 17:15
(and if you're never going to mix it with the normal math ops, why not give it a unique or special-purpose name anyway?)
Zheglov I suppose so. What about using multiple dispatch, so that this behaviour is only apply to certain objects? 17:19
in conjunction with `is assoc('list')`
raydiak g'morning #perl6 17:21
TimToady multiple dispatch is a run-time activity, and cannot change the parse retroactively 17:22
at best, we know the candidate list at compile time, but if the candidates demand different kinds of parsing, we're hosed
raydiak when a project grows to a certain size and starts running in to difficult-to-diagnose rakudo failures like heisenbugs and precomp errors, is there anything that can be done to file a useful bug report without hours or days of golfing? 17:27
colomon wants to hear the answer to raydiak's question 17:28
lizmat too
TimToady I dunno, the traditional response is to shoot the messenger, but that seems...suboptimal... 17:29
colomon does not want to be shot 17:30
raydiak I feel like I'm not contributing, having stuff like "print ''; # TODO reduce & report" scattered all over my project, but I'm really not up to trying to golf that kind of mystery right now, when it just spontaneously springs forth after doing nothing out of the ordinary
raydiak does not want his laptop shot :)
lizmat is raydiak on OS X by any chance ?
PerlJam raydiak: convince one or more of the denizens of #perl6 to help?
raydiak lizmat: nope, 64-bit linux 17:31
PerlJam: heh are you volunteering to golf my multi-thousand-line mess?
lizmat hmmm... intriguing 17:32
PerlJam raydiak: not really right now, but if you could write a little bit about where your code is located, what the problem is, and how I can reproduce it, I might be inclined to look at it later
lizmat raydiak: I assume spectest is clean on your laptop ? 17:33
raydiak PerlJam: remove all the "print '';" from Math::Symbolic and watch it explode :)
lizmat: does rakudobrew run that automatically?
lizmat I actually have no idea, but I would guess not 17:34
colomon lizmat: ABC has precomp problems on 64-bit linux too. haven't even tried it on OS X, because I need ABC to work on at least one of my machines. (ie I'm not upgrading Rakudo there until this bug is fixed)
rakudobrew does not run spectest automatically
that would be slow.
lizmat indeed, that's what I thought
raydiak also there is a precomp bug (same module), which causes routines to vanish or something, gives a null something or another error 17:35
raydiak will spectest, but has updated rakudo several times over the last few weeks with the same results
PerlJam raydiak: does removing any one of the "print ''
lizmat hmmm.... that was supposed to have been fixed
PerlJam cause it to explode?
lizmat (at the expense of a much slower startup, I might add)
colomon lizmat: what was supposed to be fixed? 17:36
raydiak PerlJam: hard to say, it's a heisenbug...I assume so? they were all needed where they are at one point or another, but it seems like they interact
lizmat the precomp bug with vanishing subs
raydiak so having addeed ones later on, some of the earlier ones might not be needed any more
PerlJam: it'll give something like "Internal error: zeroed target thread ID in work pass" or so 17:37
colomon lizmat: if you mean hoelzro's Moar patch from about two weeks ago, that's actually what made the ABC precomp bug *start* happening
lizmat yes, *and* make rakudo siginificantly slower at startup
raydiak wonders if the arduously-golfed Math::ThreeD precomp bug ever went away
colomon which (since his patch was very simple) I can only assume means something fairly fundamental is broken, and we're just twiddling what particular precomp errors show up 17:38
PerlJam raydiak: will it explode when running the tests?
lizmat I'm going to revert that commit and test
raydiak PerlJam: after removing the prints? I believe so
PerlJam raydiak: and does it explode every time (just in unpredictable ways)?
raydiak PerlJam: the precomp bug doesn't manifest during testing, I wanted the module to be installable 17:39
PerlJam: when the appropriate print isn't there, I *think* it only explodes when that branch runs
colomon lizmat: just to be clear, we're both talking about 05b25a6359c7bcf5ab03357b0d0093f77d28ead6 ?
lizmat yup
raydiak PerlJam: but yes when it fails, it is repeatable 17:40
colomon 's precomp bug is 100% repeatable
PerlJam raydiak: can you give me a one-liner that I can cut-n-paste to make it explode?
raydiak PerlJam: if I could golf it to a one-liner I would have filed a bug instead of complaining here about my lack of long-term golfing tuits :) 17:41
PerlJam: oh, you mean a math::symbolic one-liner?
PerlJam raydiak: aye
I cloned the repo, uncommented the prints, and ran the tests with no explosion 17:42
raydiak PerlJam: one sec lemme dig in my bash history
PerlJam (I'm just trying to make it explode once before I stop procrastinating on $work so that I can look at it later) 17:43
raydiak PerlJam: try "symbolic --x='Vx*t+Px' --y='Vy*t+Py' --z='Vz*t+Pz' 't²=x²+y²+z²' t"...that one failed iirc
PerlJam gist.github.com/perlpilot/3777ffd262f82be0ba9e 17:44
raydiak is trying too
just like a heisenbug, all of asudden I can't show you :P 17:45
PerlJam er, s/uncommented/commented/ above
raydiak yeah I assumed :) 17:46
PerlJam maybe it fixed itself! ;)
raydiak not what you were asking, but for the precomp bug, "2²" is enough to trigger it
PerlJam: heh I keep hoping if I just wait another week or two the rakudo elves will make it all go away 17:47
lizmat has been doing that for over a month now :-( 17:48
raydiak for precomp, all the eval routines defined in Math::Symbolic::Language fail, just not the ones where it points at an external routine like &infix:<+>
colomon extended rakudobrew to make it easier to track down exactly what rakudo/nqp/moar commit broke ABC, but that hasn't seemed to help actually get things fixed. 17:49
dalek osystem: f21bcbf | (Jorn van Engelen)++ | META.list:
META.list: Added Pod::Strip.
colomon seems like maybe we need proper tools for looking at precomp issues?
raydiak yeah the print thing is weird, I can't trigger it again now, but I'll just be hacking along and all of a sudden with no obvious cause it just happens, until I try to debug w/say, then it goes away, so I just leave a print '' there
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PerlJam raydiak: you've only been developing on a single machine? OR has the heisenbug shown up on multiple machines? 17:51
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raydiak PerlJam: only working on the single machine lately 17:52
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raydiak starting spectest...vague question, but how long does this take on an average machine? 17:56
PerlJam a long time 17:57
longer if you're using parrot or jvm
raydiak: did you start it with TEST_JOBS=4 (or some other number) ? 17:59
if not, it'll take *much* longer still
raydiak PerlJam: no, I don't really know much about running the test suite...it that for multicore?
lizmat colomon: just built Moar without 05b25a6359c7bcf5ab03357b0d0093f77d28ead6 and I still see flakyness 18:00
:-( 18:01
colomon lizmat: like I tried to say before, I don't think there's something fundamentally wrong with 05b25a6359c7bcf5ab03357b0d0093f77d28ead6, I think it just redistributes the flakiness.
lizmat ah, ok
PerlJam raydiak: aye, for running the tests in a parallel fashion
colomon lizmat: though it redistributed the flakiness on top of me, which I don't like. ;) 18:02
raydiak PerlJam: thanks, restarted with both my cores being used :)
lizmat colomon: ;-(
dinner&
raydiak PerlJam: I am also still trying to trigger that bug again, I'll let you know if I succeed
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timotimo o/ 18:07
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raydiak do I get to sue someone if my almost-literally-boiling cpu dies from the test suite? :) 18:07
\o timotimo
colomon raydiak: warning: do not hold laptop on lap during spectest. ;) 18:09
raydiak colomon: heh good call, I was just shifting it sideways to get the cpu area off of my leg 18:10
timotimo i collected a bit of a headache on the way home :\ 18:11
maybe i'll take a quick nap
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raydiak a wet, white, slippery headache accumulated on the ground here today, to go along with our alaskan cold front or whatever's going on 18:15
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raydiak I has spectest failures 18:20
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raydiak in S02-lists array, baghash, and lists 18:22
I think this is like yesterday's rakudo, or maybe the day before...should I rebuild and retest?
erm, S02-types, that is 18:23
TimToady yes, rebuild from HEAD, which the tests are reflecting 18:24
(though they are benign failures) 18:25
raydiak thanks, doing so now 18:26
TimToady it's the checking of @array[-1] at compile time instead of run time
raydiak oh right, from yesterday 18:27
PerlJam: still no luck with the heisenbug, guess I'll just have to put it in a git branch when I see it again; thank you for trying to help 18:30
TimToady wonders if we should try supplying our own malloc with its own diagnostics 18:31
[Coke] TimToady: OSX has tons of malloc diagnostics.
TimToady might trap the freeing something not malloced thing on osx
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TimToady but it doesn't give us a stacktrace, does it? 18:32
[Coke] .... which are hard to use here, because adding "FROB=1" before the invocation causes the bug to go away. :|
TimToady would be nice to know *which* free is being called
[Coke] TimToady: "If set, malloc remembers the function call stack at the time of each allocation."
TimToady: my moar ticket answered that.
I got a reproducable thing I could run under lldb. 18:33
TimToady okay, am not omniscient :)
[Coke] gdb[OSX]=lldb, or close enough.
TimToady: that's not what you said before! ;)
TimToady I know. :)
[Coke] mmhehehe
TimToady errands & 18:34
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FROGGS lizmat: will now have time to care about panda@windows 18:48
18:53 ajr_ left
[Coke] m: my $a = "this\tthat"; say $a.split(' ').perl; 18:58
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«("this\tthat",).list␤»
[Coke] so, that's words or comb now; no easy way to get p5's "split ' ', 2" ? 18:59
lizmat FROGGS: I'm back
what would you want me to do
FROGGS lizmat: just be patient :o) 19:00
[Coke] m: my $a = "this\tthat"; say $a.words(2).perl;
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«("this", "that")␤»
[Coke] ah, that easy way. :)
lizmat you doctor, me patient
FROGGS :P
raydiak spectest was clean...so when I do have these impractical-to-golf bugs, is there anything useful I can do with like strace or valgrind or something, to put in a bug report? or is it impossible to know what other information would be useful without talking to a rakudo dev about the specific error? 19:01
lizmat valgrind would be helpful, afaik
[Coke] m: my $a = "this\tthat #icu"; say $a.words(2).perl; 19:02
camelia rakudo-moar b8246f: OUTPUT«("this", "that")␤»
[Coke] ... ah. not that easy. the limit isn't doing what the limit in p5's split does. 19:03
Note: limit is used in the sig, but not defined in perlcabal.org/syn/S32/Str.html 's comb.
raydiak thanks lizmat, that at least gives me something I can say about "mysterious error" to report these things in rt when I don't know what else to do 19:04
hoelzro lizmat, colomon: I think there's just something wrong deeper in precomp code, but I can't figure out what it is 19:07
my diamond test case triggers it with lazily deserialization, and ABC triggers it without
colomon hoelzro: right, I'm sure the overall problem is not the fault of that patch of yours. 19:08
lizmat: hints on running with valgrind? if moarvm works with it, that's certainly something I can do here.
hoelzro I would love to help fix it; I just don't even know where to start
colomon hoelzro: like I said earlier, my notion is that step one may be figuring out how to get meaningful debugging data on precomp names. finding out when the names are disappearing would be huge, I reckon. 19:09
that said, I've got no idea how to go about doing that in the code, I'm not familiar with the moar codebase in the least.
hoelzro agreed
my stumbling block when figuring out the diamond thing was iterating over a given stash and printing out debugging info in the MoarVM codebase seemed impossible 19:10
lizmat colomon: no hints, I'm afraid 19:14
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colomon afk # errands 19:15
lizmat hoelzro: looking at MoarVM code near your patch 19:17
hoelzro I'm thinking the real problem is in NQP or Rakudo, since my diamond bug is still present on the JVM 19:18
lizmat the sha1 function declares a char output[80], but a few lines down a 40 is specified
that looks fragile
hoelzro: then perhaps we *should* revert your patch, to get easier to debug breakage ? 19:19
hoelzro hmm 19:20
that's a good point
I'm not really doing anything with Perl 6 lately, so it doesn't really hurt me
btw, when looking at ABC, I noticed that omitting 'use Test;' fixed the disappearing keys 19:21
I wanted to try and golf it down to something I could file a ticket with, but time has not been on my side lately =/
lizmat just for the sake of the argument, could you remove the Test.pm.moarvm file and see if it still happens if you add back the 'use Test' ? 19:22
hoelzro hmm
I don't konw
that's a good question
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hoelzro nope, the same result 19:24
lizmat ah? then it *isn't* precomp related, I would say
raydiak idk how related this is, but #121319 is an old precomp bug I first had under jvm and just confirmed still exists under modern moar
synopsebot Link: rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Displa...?id=121319
lizmat tries to run spectest with a Test.pm from source
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hoelzro lizmat: but when ABC isn't precomp'd, it works 19:25
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hoelzro lizmat: reducing Test.pm to just variables "fixes" the problem 19:30
lizmat ?? what do you mean by that ?
just variables?
hoelzro however, if the variables have an initial value (my $var = '' rather than just my $var;), it breaks again
lizmat: I stripped out all of the actual test code and am just doing .say for ABC::.keys 19:31
lizmat aahhhh
hoelzro when I say "break", I mean that the keys listing is incomplete
sorry, didn't mean to freak you out =)
lizmat now, *that* rings a bell with the various problems I've seen with making @*INC initialization lazy
FROGGS lizmat: okay, so dir() needs to return forward slashes, or, "C:\\foo\\bar" ~~ 'C:/foo/bar'.path should be true 19:32
lizmat checks on the current state of dir() 19:33
FROGGS I'd favour the latter fwiw
lizmat oooh wow: ===( 24142;135 8/11 8/17 5/17 0/? 0/? 1/5 0/? 0/? )========Can't use an undefined value as an ARRAY reference at /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.20.0/TAP/Parser/Multiplexer.pm line 138.
sorry, squirrel 19:34
lizmat tries something 19:36
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FROGGS leont patched that TAP::Parser just recently, right? 19:36
I am testing that now btw: 19:37
multi method ACCEPTS(IO::Path:D: Mu \that) {
- nqp::p6bool(nqp::iseq_s($!path,nqp::unbox_s(IO::Path.new(|that).path)));
+ nqp::p6bool(nqp::iseq_s($!path.abspath,nqp::unbox_s(IO::Path.new(|that).path.abspath)));
}
ohh, that's not quite right
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lizmat nqp::p6bool(nqp::iseq_s($!path.abspath,nqp::unbox_s(IO::Path.new(|that).abspath))); 19:41
eh....
FROGGS nqp::p6bool(nqp::iseq_s($.abspath,nqp::unbox_s(IO::Path.new(|that).abspath)));
lizmat: that seems to make panda work: gist.github.com/FROGGS/3f7f5444d867055e946a 19:44
lizmat doublechecks 19:45
FROGGS yeah, need to spectest it on linux and windows before comitting that :o) 19:46
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FROGGS though the approach might not be too bad 19:46
lizmat Linux is a bit of pb for me, OS X I *can* test
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FROGGS I can test linux luckily 19:46
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jdv79 now, with an action class attached, my p6 version of a p5 parser for a simple lang is now taking 100ms vs p5's 300ns. somehow the actions are 66% of the runtime. 19:47
smls Someone started working on Perl 6 syntax highlighting for Kate, right? What became of that?
FROGGS jdv79: compiletime*
jdv79 sure 19:48
lizmat FROGGS: panda installs ok with that patch
still running spectest
FROGGS nice
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TimToady at some point we should figure out how to attach action routines directly to the corresponding parse routine so we don't do a second method dispatch 19:49
at least, not more than once
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moritz jdv79: do the action methods do any list iteration, by chance? 19:50
lizmat FROGGS: checking flappers
FROGGS TimToady: true, I guess we do the .^can several times
TimToady just have to make sure you recalculate when you derive a new language 19:51
FROGGS we already have another cache that gets invalidated when you mix into a class
so, infrastructure is in place
TimToady but our whole compile process does a lot more hash lookups than is healthy
FROGGS I just forgat what the other cache was about
TimToady a hash cache is still a hash 19:52
moritz FROGGS: method cache?
FROGGS moritz: I dunno... I just know I fixed the invalidation like two years ago
TimToady but that's not something to work on today...
FROGGS :o) 19:53
at least not in nom
lizmat ok, all spectests seem ok (except the diamond one, need to revert my MoarVM change)
timotimo i tried to get the cat to cuddle with me during my nap by accumulating a bit of strangury, but it didn't work, because someone was cooking dinner in the kitchen
FROGGS lizmat: you're using 2014.11 for moarvm anyway
TimToady is still trying to get longlits right on alternations, though they seem to work right on protoregexes 19:54
FROGGS lizmat: so you don't need to revert something for the rakudo release
timotimo is strangury a word people would use in a normal conversation?
lizmat true, but I do need to revert it locally :-)
raydiak timotimo: I have no idea what it means :)
lizmat
.oO( Confuse A Cat Ltd. )
timotimo raydiak: my dictionary suggests it's a shorter version of "desire to urinate"
raydiak timotimo: heh I see 19:55
TimToady has never seen that word
timotimo okay :)
dalek kudo/nom: 8af3ebe | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/IO/Path.pm:
Fix for Panda breakage on Win32, FROGGS++
 19:56
timotimo i know that cats can sense when someone needs to go to the toilet soon and they then get on that person's lap or something
TimToady the weird thing is that it seems like alternations are building the NFA twice, according to my debug output
jdv79 moritz: of course
TimToady so maybe there are some cheap cycles to cut out there 19:57
timotimo do we actually spend a noticable time building NFAs? that only happens during compilation and the NFAs then get serialized, right? 19:58
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TimToady presumably 20:01
moritz jdv79: list iteration is very slow right now :( 20:02
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lizmat unless somebody has a very urgent issue, I will start the actual release process in about 15 mins 20:05
FROGGS lizmat: +1 20:06
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FROGGS TimToady: that was the commit I was talking about: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/90...0994823ff3 20:11
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timotimo lizmat: looking forward to it :) 20:14
thanks for taking the time
dalek kudo/nom: 294d5ab | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
Move release into place in release_guide
 20:16
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dalek p: f36a441 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | VERSION:
bump VERSION to 2014.11
 20:20
jdv79 it not complete but here's what i'm talking about: nopaste.info/80d1ca6277.html 20:23
vendethiel .tell hoelzro github.com/github/linguist/issues/1680 20:24
yoleaux vendethiel: I'll pass your message to hoelzro.
hoelzro vendethiel: great =/ 20:25
yoleaux 20:24Z <vendethiel> hoelzro: github.com/github/linguist/issues/1680
hoelzro thanks for letting me know
I knew they were switching, but I didn't expect it to be so quick
vendethiel hoelzro: github is doing a shit job at this linguist thing.
hoelzro vendethiel: what would you say is shitty about it? 20:26
vendethiel hoelzro: the people around it.
hoelzro I have my own opinions, but I would like to hear yours first =)
vendethiel It literally required somebody to blog about this damn mess so that they could get the >1 year old PR out of the way
lizmat grr.... can't build nqp on parrot :-(
hoelzro vendethiel: there was a blog entry?
vendethiel yea, somebody complained about github doing utter shit about linguist, so they fixed it 20:27
lizmat Undefined symbols for architecture x86_64:
"_Parrot_longopt_get", referenced from:
_main in main.o
ld: symbol(s) not found for architecture x86_64
does that ring a bell with anybody?
vendethiel but before, they were more than 100 pull requests opened, and nobody answering them. > 1 year "queue time"
hoelzro vendethiel: oh, *that* one
I remember nodding my head so much when reading it
vendethiel well, there were 2 follow ups (by other people) around that
hoelzro but I don't think they fixed anything after that 20:28
vendethiel well, it's processing faster now.
hoelzro my PR for Perl 6 fixes has been sitting there for 10 months
just saying "hey, these files are also valid Perl 6"
vendethiel It took me like 6 months to get my PR into pygments accepted
hoelzro pygments, or pygments.rb?
vendethiel pygments.
hoelzro really?
they were super fast for me
vendethiel it's on bitbucket and the maintainer does NOTHING about this project
hoelzro like a few days
including review 20:29
and fixes on my part
vendethiel then 8 months to get it into github
complete mess
hoelzro yeah, pygments.rb + linguist are a mess
vendethiel maybe it was pygments.rb, can't remember
hoelzro but someone files a PR for Swift? merged in 15 minutes
vendethiel but think it was python
hoelzro pygments.rb is almost completely ignored by its "maintainers"
I found pygments to be quite active
timotimo devassistant.org/ - seems kinda cute 20:30
i shall have a look at building a perl6 script for that
vendethiel maybe it was .rb then :) whichever github used
so might be .rb
hoelzro probably
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FROGGS lizmat: about nqp-p@osx... I had similar issues on linux and win32, and rurban fixed it just in time... 20:33
lizmat: no luck for osx user I'd say 20:34
lizmat well, could be that building 3 backends at the same time gives the problem
now building seperate backends
FROGGS lizmat: I'd thought about declaring parrot experimental on windows in case it would have been broken on win32 for the release 20:35
lizmat: no, don't think that will help
lizmat well, then maybe revert to an earlier parrot version ?
moritz is star-m still considered experimental?
FROGGS he's just a one man army without a group of testers
moritz: no, it is our flagship
[Coke] lizmat: on OSX, I always build separate backends, if that helps. 20:37
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FROGGS lizmat: that will break other stuff 20:39
lizmat FROGGS: building separately will break other stuff ?? 20:41
FROGGS lizmat: no, reverting to 2014.08
lizmat ah, ok
well, separate build for parrot built ok and tested ok
FROGGS O.o
that is really weird 20:42
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lizmat I'm getting used to weird :-( 20:43
FROGGS yeah, sadly
moritz lizmat: when you have separate builds on different backends, could you please do a 'git clean -xdn' (the -n tells it not to remove anything) in each build, and record the output for me?
maybe there are some files overlapping due to platform-specific stuff
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lizmat moritz: will do later, for now I'm buidling in 3 different clones, one for each backend 20:44
precisely to prevent any interaction :-)
moritz lizmat: ok, no hurry
(it's a shot in the dark, really) 20:45
FROGGS you can run his command in these clones later, no?
moritz lizmat: oh, and please do it in nqp too
yes
dalek p: 4230e03 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
Mention building separately for different backends
 20:46
arnsholt What's the lexotic op in NQP for, apart from returning stuff? 20:47
moritz notices that the rakudo-m build on linux produces a dynext/container.o and a dynext/perl6-ops.o, both of which don't have any 'moar' or 'm-' in the name
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moritz arnsholt: seems to be about lexically restricted exception handlers 20:49
arnsholt: does that make any sense to you? :-)
lizmat $ make release VERSION-2014.11 20:54
make: *** No rule to make target `release'. Stop.
huh?
FROGGS s/-/=/ 20:55
lizmat $ make release VERSION=2014.11
make: *** No rule to make target `release'. Stop.
FROGGS grep release Makefile ?
lizmat nothing :-( 20:56
FROGGS yeah, on my box too
lizmat: it is only in the Makefile-Parrot.in :o) 20:57
lizmat aha!
testing nqp tarball noq 20:59
now
I don't think I can upload it though
FROGGS I can
lizmat kewl 21:00
dalek p: bef19e0 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
Mention FROGGS++ as one of the people to upload
 21:01
PerlJam lizmat: are you liz@LizyPro? 21:03
vendethiel Lizy Pro (TM)
PerlJam from the authorized_keys file, it looks like Coke, timotimo, and sergot (and lizmat if that's her) can also upload
timotimo o/ 21:04
maybe
is that timo@schmetterling? also, what host is that?
PerlJam timotimo: aye. rakudo.org
tony-o snap 21:05
timotimo let me see
lizmat PerlJam: for some reason I'm at LizyPro-2
timotimo ah, yes indeed
tony-o PerlJam: check this out for sql :: github.com/tony-o/perl6-slang-sql/...01_basic.t
PerlJam tony-o: whoa! That's nice. 21:06
tony-o: now all you have to do is get rid of the placeholders by making variable interpolation Do The Right Thing ;)
tony-o get rid of which placeholders ? 21:07
PerlJam all of them!
make "exec select * from stuff where id > $blah" Just Work
arnsholt moritz: More or less. Thanks! 21:08
PerlJam (I don't have a clue how hard that would be, but I can dream a little bit, I think)
tony-o PerlJam: ahh, yea that might be iteration 2, that is probably not that hard - find variables pop them onto an array and replace with '?'
dalek p: 14905e2 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
Mention 'make release' only for parrot Makefile
 21:09
PerlJam tony-o: Where did you come up with the "exec ... with" syntax from? (I would guess one of the embedded SQL flavors) 21:11
tony-o i'm sure it exists somewhere but it seemed more natural than what i started with
i originally had perform (vars) <sql> <block> 21:12
the only language i've used with inline sql is ABAP and that starts off with just your sql 21:14
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moritz abap? isn't that the SAP thingy? 21:16
tony-o yea, i think it exists outside of SAP but i use it related to SAP and data warehouse 21:17
PerlJam: did you have suggestions? 21:18
PerlJam tony-o: um ... keep up the good work? :-) 21:19
tony-o++
tony-o i meant for syntax :/
:p
PerlJam no, not right off. What you have looks nice as a first cut. 21:20
timotimo upgrades to fedora 21 beta
yays
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PerlJam tony-o: that it's also familiar-ish because of its resemblance to embedded SQL dialects is a plus too. 21:21
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PerlJam tony-o: actually, after thinking about it a little more, you /might/ want to s/exec/SQL/ to make it super clear about which universe is impinging upon the Perl 6 code. Or at least something other than "exec" as that's kind of generic as far as terms go. 21:30
raydiak was thinking about 'sql' instead of 'exec' too 21:32
dalek kudo/nom: fd96de9 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
[2014.11] bump NQP revision
 21:38
tony-o PerlJam: raydiak: i'll change it so it's clear when reading 21:39
dalek kudo/nom: f195135 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | VERSION:
[2014.11] bump VERSION
 21:40
PerlJam tony-o: do you have to export the perform sub in order for it to be called? That seems like an implementation detail that shouldn't necessarily be part of the interface. 21:41
tony-o PerlJam: i'm trying to figure that part out before i release it
i don't like having the sub floating around either 21:42
ugexe tony-o: i dont think you can use placeholders everywhere in a sql query
PerlJam ugexe: yeah, usually you can't use it for the table name for instance. 21:43
ugexe: though that 21:45
ugexe: though that's one thing tony-o could abstract away from the user such that it magically Just Works and the user doesn't need to know *how* 21:46
tony-o yea it would take some fiddle
ugexe yeah, i was just pointing out it wouldnt be just s///
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raydiak is there a way to replace a method on a built-in type from user code? I'd like to hack on Mu.perl without recompiling rakudo over and over; or is there some other common approach to doing this? 21:47
tony-o once i figure out the sub thing though, i'm going to unleash this thing
PerlJam raydiak: use MONKEY_TYPING; augment class Mu { ... } 21:48
raydiak: it might be MONKEY_PATCHING instead ... I haven't done this in a while.
nope, looks like I was right the first time. 21:49
raydiak PerlJam: thanks! is there a way to replace the method instead of adding a multi? 21:50
Ulti tony-o that's really cool can't you just have the select|insert|drop|create replace the 'exec' though?
PerlJam Ulti: I bet he could, with a little work, but I think it's "friendlier" to give the programmer a heads-up about what just happened to the syntax. 21:52
Ulti I dunno I like the magic >:3 perhaps enforce uppercase to make it more obvious? 21:53
jdv79 is there anyone working on fixing "pretty printing" 21:54
i imagine that would be a gist/perl type option, right? 21:55
tony-o Ulti: i was thinking about that, i was concerned that i might run into a scenario that wasn't covered by one of those ^ though I couldn't think of one 21:57
PerlJam Ulti: maybe.
jdv79: I seem to recall that there was once a .pretty just like .gist (only prettier :), but that was long ago (or I imagined it ;) 21:59
Ulti tony-o well MySQL has LOAD and it ends up being specific to each version of SQL I guess
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tony-o Ulti: i guess i could just cover basic CRUD statements that apply to *most* SQLs and then just sql as the backup 21:59
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Ulti yeah it wouldnt be impossible to just get all the primary statements for the things DBIsh covers either... MySQL at least provide a grammar of their implementation 22:04
jdv79 the docs for gist seems to describe output that is pretty by default to me
or does .gist vary that much from .perl that its not well suited 22:05
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dalek kudo/nom: 7191e49 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
Mention FROGGS++ as one of the uploaders
 22:22
raydiak my main complaint with .gist is that it's often not pretty enough for output to users, and not detailed enough for debug output for developers, so it's good for...what?
lizmat to give you a gist ?
raydiak if it at least preserved brackets and list separators, I'd get a gist...as it is, I often don't get the gist from .gist 22:23
lizmat "the substance or general meaning of a speech or text"
FROGGS raydiak: can you report unhelpful gists when you hit them? 22:24
lizmat then it would be more like .perl
raydiak ish
FROGGS: I think it's more of an opinion thing than a bug
lizmat well, the other day .gist lost the difference between @() and [] somewhere, which was confusing
PerlJam raydiak: you want .perl, but way prettier, right? (i.e. complete information, presented in an easy-for-humans-to-read manner) 22:25
lizmat forget what it was exactly
.oO( the old braincells are fading :-)
jdv79 that's what i want - a readable dump
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jdv79 with no loss of structure 22:25
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raydiak PerlJam: not from .gist, but yeah I want something like that in core 22:26
lizmat wrt to the 2014.11 release process: tarball ok for Moar, testing parrot and JVM now
(this takes a little longer)
PerlJam aye, sounds like you, jdv79 and me all want that thing (Whatever it is)
raydiak thinking .gist would be a ton better just with linebreaks and indentation, even sans brackets, comma, and so forth
PerlJam raydiak: except that .gist will sometimes give you things like ( 1, 2, ... ) instead of all the numbers 22:27
lizmat 100 elements, it is even specced
well, as a guideline
jdv79 .pretty - whatever. but basically it would just be .perl methods that take an indent at its simplest, right? 22:28
raydiak PerlJam: yep, that'd be fine too, I just want something in between ".gist tells me nearly nothing about structure" and "can't read .perl's puntuation-laden single-line verbosity" 22:29
oh, doc appt, better go or I'll be stuck in the snow...back in a little bit o/
PerlJam All we have to do is convince garu that he needs to make a P6 version of Data::Printer ;)
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FROGGS well, the internal to-json can be of interest then 22:32
m: say to-json [[^3],4] 22:33
camelia rakudo-moar f19513: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/WCyzMyiSly␤Unable to parse expression in bracketed infix; couldn't find final ']' ␤at /tmp/WCyzMyiSly:1␤------> say to-json [[^⏏3],4]␤»
FROGGS m: say to-json [[ ^3 ],4]
camelia rakudo-moar f19513: OUTPUT«[␤ [␤ 0,␤ 1,␤ 2␤ ],␤ 4␤]␤»
FROGGS m: say (to-json [[ ^3 ],4]).subst(' ', '.')
camelia rakudo-moar f19513: OUTPUT«[␤. [␤ 0,␤ 1,␤ 2␤ ],␤ 4␤]␤»
FROGGS m: say (to-json [[ ^3 ],4]).subst(' ', '.', :g)
camelia rakudo-moar f19513: OUTPUT«[␤..[␤....0,␤....1,␤....2␤..],␤..4␤]␤»
tony-o FROGGS: do you know of a way to make the following sub callable (from line 61) without the 'export' bit? github.com/tony-o/perl6-slang-sql/...SQL.pm6#L3 22:40
FROGGS tony: you could call it as &Slang::SQL::sql here: github.com/tony-o/perl6-slang-sql/...QL.pm6#L63 22:41
tony-o ahh, duh 22:42
FROGGS at least I think it should work
might need to our scope the sub though 22:43
PerlJam tony-o: you'd have to add a "module Slang::SQL;" to the top of that file and say "our sub perform ... "
FROGGS EXPORT needs to stay in UNIT though AFAIK 22:44
so, the module declaration needs to happen after the EXPORT sub
tony-o i used curlies on it
now i get a weird error
if i do module declaration at the end then i get 'too late for semicolon form of module definition', if i curly the module then i get 'cannot find method 'orig'' 22:47
hold on, i'll push
github.com/tony-o/perl6-slang-sql/...SQL.pm6#L3 22:48
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PerlJam tony-o: the "too late for semicolon form" error is because module declarations of that form have to be the first thing in the file. 22:49
tony-o PerlJam: yea that's why i curlied it, i don't understand the Cannot find method 'orig' error tho 22:54
PerlJam you could eliminate all of this by writing the sql sub as QAST :) 22:55
tony-o haha
true 22:56
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lizmat tarball checked out ok for parrot, doing jvm now 22:59
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lizmat hmmm.... 23:00
t/spec/S11-modules/export.rakudo.jvm (Wstat: 0 Tests: 36 Failed: 22)
Failed tests: 3-20, 22-25
[Coke]: does that look familiar ? 23:01
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lucas_ Hi there! 23:05
I know nothing about the release process. The tarball already is on rakudo.org, but there is no git tag for rakudo?
Ulti tony-o perhaps you can include a connect string in the SQL keyword and keep a hash of those handles and open one if it doesnt exist
23:05 FROGGS left
lizmat lucas_: shhhh 23:05
lucas_ lizmat: oh, sorry. lizmat++ 23:06
lizmat only need to test the tarball for jvm... 23:07
Ulti tony-o so like SQL<SQLite:database.sql>
lizmat that will take ~1 hour, no need for FROGGS to stay up for that :-)
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Ulti is excited about a SQL slang, would make a lot of my research code look a lot slicker 23:08
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ugexe is there an easy way of getting a script's getopt commands, or do i need to inspect all the MAIN method captures? For instance: like how 'git' will suggest what you might have meant with a misspelt argument 23:08
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lizmat ugexe: this is a dirty hack that's used in the settings: 23:16
$ 6 '.say for nqp::atkey(%*COMPILING, "%?OPTIONS")'
"encoding" => "utf8"
"transcode" => "ascii iso-8859-1"
"e" => ".say for nqp::atkey(\%*COMPILING, \"\%?OPTIONS\")"
note the "e"
m: .say for nqp::atkey(%*COMPILING, "%?OPTIONS")
camelia rakudo-moar f19513: OUTPUT«"encoding" => "utf8"␤"transcode" => "ascii iso-8859-1"␤"setting" => "RESTRICTED"␤»
ugexe lizmat: perfect 23:17
lizmat we probably need a better interface for this somehow 23:18
ugexe: forget it 23:19
it only has the parameters that Perl6 itself understands :-( 23:20
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prime moritz: I'm interested in implementing ilbot, but HINRIK/Bot-BasicBot-0.81.tar.gz seems outdated as 0.82 is all that backpan.perl.org seems to offer. Is there a reason you used that version? 23:24
dalek ast: cc95f52 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S11-modules/export.t:
Fix failing export tests for JVM backend

I'm not sure whether the tests are bogus or not, but an exported sub in the EXPORT::ALL namespace has a different .WHICH from the original on the JVM. The exports themselves appear to be working as expected, from cursory testing.		 23:27
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lizmat Helsinki has been released! 23:40
woolfy lizmat++
Woohoooo!!!
(so now we can finally go to sleep?) 23:41
lizmat yes
good night, #perl6!
dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 32 commits to rakudo/newio by lizmat 23:42
lucas_ Thanks for the release. Helsinki is a nice name. 23:44
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