»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 25 June 2013.
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[Coke] jnthn: sorry. no luck making things fail this evening. 01:35
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raydiak \o * 01:55
colomon o/ 02:00
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raydiak colomon: what have you been up to? 02:32
colomon Trying to clean up Unicode filename handling in my C++ $work code. 02:36
raydiak eh...idk specifically what that entail, but I'm sorry :)
*entails 02:37
colomon It entails trying to deal with Microsoft's incompetence.
raydiak even more "eh"/ew...sorry :P
colomon basically, I've gone through my filename class and made sure it handles utf8 in char *s and utf16 or utf32 in wchar_t *s, depending on where the code is compiling. 02:38
raydiak learned perl 5 in his late teens and got spoiled too much to go very far w/things like C 02:39
colomon and it's only just now occurred to me to wonder if one (or more?) of the libraries I have to interface with may be using utf16 in 4-byte wchar_t class, because they are programming like they are on (broken) Windows even though their code is actually running on OS X / Linux. 02:40
And I've got no idea how I'm going to determine whether that is the case.
raydiak I have it in my memory for whatever reason that we have similar interests...do you have any interest in Math::Symbolic? 02:43
colomon oh, yes. :)
haven't really had time to look at it yet 02:44
raydiak it's a one-man band atm, but I'm totally down for more awesome people to swoop in and make it more serious at any time :)
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colomon is going through a life phase where he is pretty much perpetually wildly behind in everything he needs to do. 02:44
raydiak it needs a serious API, is where it's at atm...has some decent functionality, like solving for a variable in many cases, and compiling to perl 6, but justis plain "not done" 02:45
colomon I did poke a bit recently at Math::ContinuousFractions, but I'm running into infinite loops where I think laziness should be working for me, and haven't had time to sort it out. 02:46
raydiak it's close to being able to replace large parts of the primitive definitions in Pray w/the solving and precompiling abilities 02:47
colomon Pray?
raydiak that raytracer I used to write about 02:48
cyberuniverses.com/pray/
written in P6
colomon Oh! 02:49
raydiak it's basically how I introduced myself to #perl6, over a year ago now
colomon I remember the raytracer, forgot the name. :)
raydiak yeah that thing :)
the only thing stopping me atm, off the top of my head, is figuring out exactly how to deal with the ± resulting from solving a quadratic when calling .compile 02:51
colomon huh. I wouldn't think that would be that hard... 02:52
raydiak it's not, I'm just indecisive
colomon apologizes for phazing in and out of the conversation here, trying to juggle some $work and dishes at the same time. ;) 02:53
raydiak nah yer fine didn't even notice
anyway, Math::Symbolic has serious implications beyond itself and myself, like auto-generating the math/logic for your games and simulations, so I'm just looking for people besides me who might be interested in contributing 02:55
I used it to solve the leading problem in 3D as the intersection of a 4D line and a hypercone :) 02:57
colomon I absolutely am interested, but at the moment I cannot see myself having much in the way of tuits before 2015 02:58
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raydiak awesome, good news to me...by then it'll likely be more stable anyway 03:02
(in terms of api...runtime seems stable already)
jimmy_ Does it run on MoarVM ?
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raydiak well ya :) 03:03
not sure if I've tested it on anything else yet...
but cpandatesters has
(though I can't seem to get those result sto load atm) 03:07
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colomon raydiak: just went spulunking through the library code in question, and in fact they with malice aforethought return utf-16 in wchar_t values even if wchar_t is 4 or 8 bytes. (Who does 8 bytes?) :( 03:41
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BenGoldberg Some strange 64 bit platform which can process strings which use 8 bytes per wchar_t faster than other sizes. 03:47
geekosaur would be tempted to suggest Alpha
colomon The good news is I think my code will handle utf32 in 8 byte characters in a pinch. 03:48
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geekosaur ok, not alpha, it was 4 byte 03:52
it does sound like some platform that used (long) for wchar_t and then ported to 64 bit 03:53
colomon the better news is there is not such thing as utf64 03:55
BenGoldberg That would verge on madness! 04:03
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dalek osystem: a2f27de | (Nick Patch)++ | META.list:
add Geo::Region
 05:18
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raydiak if I define a .list() method but my class doesn't do Positional, will it do anything other than let people say @$object? e.g. it won't get called in list context or stuff like that, right? 07:20
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moritz raydiak: stuff in a scalar container generally isn't automatically iterated over 07:53
m: say(42) for [1, 2, 3] 07:54
camelia rakudo-moar dfcf9f: OUTPUT«42␤»
raydiak true, and since it can't go in an @ either, I guess it's only an applicable question when the object is used as the return value from a routine without an intermediate container 07:55
moritz iirc map/for use Iterable to decide whether to iterate over a non-itemized object 07:56
raydiak ah, thanks, will read up on that 07:57
moritz not sure much of it is documented
m: say Positional ~~ Iterable
camelia rakudo-moar dfcf9f: OUTPUT«False␤»
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moritz raydiak: also, Any has a 'list' method, so all your objects already have one 07:58
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raydiak oh, well that answers that then :) 07:58
moritz++
FROGGS morning 07:59
raydiak \o FROGGS
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hahainternet so nativecall has no union support it seems, that's a shame 08:33
i need to find some stuff to write in p6
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grondilu rosettacode.org/wiki/Fast_Fourier_t...orm#Perl_6 is broken, apparently because it's not possible anymore to extract a finite list of values with an infinite list of indices. 08:36
perl6: my @a = 1 .. 10; say @a[0, 2 ... *];
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grondilu is not sure what the spec has to say about that. 08:36
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camelia rakudo-{parrot,moar} dfcf9f: OUTPUT«(timeout)» 08:37
FROGGS hahainternet: talk to timotimo, he was about to implement that
hahainternet: so he has at least some insights
hahainternet FROGGS: rgr, i'm not sure what's blocking it but i've not written anything useful in p6 yet so 08:38
FROGGS hahainternet: you might want to skim the advent posts, or skim the module list for inspiration 08:39
sergot hey o/ 08:40
FROGGS hi sergot
hahainternet FROGGS: i did but finding details even on 'repr' and its implementation is frustrating
short terms, hard to google for, and i'm inexperienced
grondilu perl6: my @a = 1 .. 10; say @a[0, 2 ...^ * >= @a]; # kind of ugly, is there a better way to write this?
camelia rakudo-{parrot,moar} dfcf9f: OUTPUT«1 3 5 7 9␤»
FROGGS hahainternet: this should shed some lights: github.com/edumentab/rakudo-and-nq...als-course 08:43
hahainternet: here are pdf's: edumentab.github.io/rakudo-and-nqp-...ls-course/
hahainternet yep already there :)
thanks
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eiro o/ #perl6 09:03
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azawawi hi 09:11
yoleaux 30 Nov 2014 16:46Z <timotimo> azawawi: will you write a post on the advent calendar about farabi6?
azawawi timotimo: ping 09:12
azawawi takes a look at HTTP::Server::Async 09:13
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azawawi .tell timotimo Please see github.com/azawawi/farabi6/issues/59 09:37
yoleaux azawawi: I'll pass your message to timotimo.
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dalek volaj: 4d9eb73 | (Rob Hoelz)++ | t/08-callbacks.c:
Remove strdup in Str callback example

MoarVM no longer attempts to free strings coming in via callbacks; other implementations should follow soon		 09:40
volaj: c2e7e3c | (Rob Hoelz)++ | README.markdown:
Add callback example to README
volaj: 6bf4145 | jonathan++ | / (2 files):
Merge pull request #52 from hoelzro/master

Documentation for function arguments, and removal of strdup in Str callback test
azawawi .tell timotimo im currently busy a bit @ $work. Hopefully workload will lighten up a bit after December. The HTTP::Server::Async idea is great. Is EventSource possible with it? 09:48
yoleaux azawawi: I'll pass your message to timotimo.
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Ulti how can I grab an account on the advent calendar ahead of time? 09:52
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moritz Ulti: /msg me your email address 09:56
Ulti k k 09:57
masak antenoon, #perl6 09:59
moritz \o masak
jnthn .tell hoelzro I'd suggesting giving make_where_block a third optional argument, which defaults to QAST::Var.new( :name('$_'), :scope('lexical') ), and then pass in the QAST tree to make it do $_.signature where you are calling it. 10:01
yoleaux jnthn: I'll pass your message to hoelzro.
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Ulti moritz can we get the pygments plugin via wordpress.com? 10:17
moritz Ulti: I have no idea if we can 10:18
Ulti: I tend to use tools that generate HTML, and copy&paste the output into the HTML box 10:19
Ulti yeah I did that but you can't include any <style> tags 10:21
just checking if the appspot version of pygments has the perl6 support installed or not, not much point otherwise
moritz according to wordpress.com/products/custom-css/ you can put custom CSS somewhere, but I haven't managed to do that yet 10:25
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blackbolt Hi, someone install Steroids? i have problem : "Cannot locate native library './sdlwrapper.so" 10:50
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carlin blackbolt: did you run `make -f Makefile.sdlwrapper` ? 11:00
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blackbolt carlin: yes, there was "sdl-config" -unknown command 11:02
carlin : sdl2-config * 11:03
moritz that would it explain it, I guess :-)
blackbolt: you probably need to install the sdl2 development headers (+config program)
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blackbolt mortiz : i will do that 11:05
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Ulti moritz you'd need admin rights for that though 11:44
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moritz Ulti: I have admin rights 11:46
Ulti moritz well here's a bunch of pygments classes ;P gist.github.com/asaaki/1007420 11:47
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Ulti it's annoying GitHub stopped using pygments otherwise embedded Gist would have worked nicely 11:49
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colomon huh. cleanest smoke test run in days, but I don't understand why. :\ 11:55
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carlin colomon: LibraryMake was fixed yesterday, would have a fixed a few projects 12:01
colomon ah 12:02
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smls o/ 12:09
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smls is enjoying mst's advent calendar ("mstpan") in which each day he provides an opinionated overview of available Perl 5 modules for a particular task: shadow.cat/blog/matt-s-trout/ 12:19
^^ might also be of interest to Perl 6 module authors looking for inspiration / prior art / cautionary tales
Ulti so how do I get around "Circular module loading detected" when there is no actual circular dependencies other than two classes might want to produce each other 12:35
do they have to be in the same file?
or is it just that I'm doing use rather than require or something
dalek ecs: a3cb57b | (Nick Patch)++ | S32-setting-library/Exception.pod:
[S32::Exception] remove double-a typo
 12:38
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FROGGS Ulti: perhaps put it in the same file, then stub class A, then declare B and A 12:44
Ven "valgrind is not just a leak checker" 12:52
maintainablecode.logdown.com/posts/...ak-checker
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brrt \o 12:57
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Ulti this feels like a bigger problem though if you have a bunch of classes that coerce to each other 13:01
FROGGS you just need to stub the A's once
and this should perhaps also work across files/CUs 13:02
arnsholt masak: Oooh, those were interesting posts. Thanks for mentioning it!
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Ven needs to clog masak's links 13:06
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smls moritz, Ulti (re. custom CSS on wordpress): I've read that's only possible if you either self-host your wordpress blog, or upgrade to a paid plan on wordpress.com 13:08
masak arnsholt: I have completely lost context ;) no idea what posts those were, but glad they were interesting. 13:10
smls although you can embed CSS in a <style></style> element in your post contents
arnsholt masak: mstpan =)
Oh, except it was smls, not you
Apparently I have still not had enough caffeine this morning >.< 13:11
colomon caffeine++
moritz (not needing caffeine)++ 13:12
colomon moritz: indeed :)
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smls Ulti: Also, I've tried the pygments plugin on a local wordpress install, and it isn't very good. 13:14
For example, non-ASCII characters tripped it up badly. 13:15
And it inserted a huge CSS block before every single syntax-highlighted code snippet, rather than just one per page.
(which significantly affected page load time for a page with many code snippets) 13:16
Ulti lame 13:21
smls Ulti: Note that you can manually pipe your code snippets through pygmentize though (which is installed with Pygments), using «pygmentize -f html -O nowrap -l perl6 -o output.htm input.p6» 13:24
Or write your file in HTML and make sure all code snippets are in <code></code> tags, and then use my convenience script on it: github.com/smls/undef/blob/master/...de-tags.p6
(although the script still has some rough edges) 13:25
And then add something like this to the top of the HTML: gist.github.com/smls/a67af2e2c6466df32dc9
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moritz or you could use Text::VimColor 13:28
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colomon wonders how hard it would be to make a p6 version of Text::VimColor... 13:46
FROGGS ++colomon 13:47
:D
Ulti yeah smls I was already doing that but the problem is <style> is stripped out by Wordpress 13:58
I think moritz can probably allow all HTML in posts though
smls really? 13:59
Ulti yarly
smls it's not stripped out in my install
Ulti at least with the current security settings
smls maybe it's a *wordpress.com* thing, to promote their premium plan which includes custom CSS support?
Ulti smls well I literally just tried this
moritz Ulti: would it help you if I gave you admin privs? 14:03
Ulti :S perhaps 14:04
moritz Ulti: what's your wordpress user name? 14:05
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Ulti though it's perhaps a better plan if I get some crappy wordpress.com blog to play in and work it out first 14:05
moritz matteoates
moritz Ulti: ok, you should be admin now 14:06
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Ulti uh oh 14:38
yeah I think its more this version of wordpress is some funky one specific to wordpress.com like all the stuff you might want to change and use ask you to pay £70 a year 14:40
smls :( 14:41
Does it at least allow inline style="" attributes? 14:42
Ulti not sure
smls Did you test if <style> elements are stripped even when posting as admin? 14:43
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Ulti yeah they are 14:45
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masak m: role A {}; role B does A {}; multi foo(A) { say "A" }; multi foo(B) { say "B" }; foo(B.new) 15:22
camelia rakudo-moar dfcf9f: OUTPUT«B␤»
masak m: role A {}; role B is A {}; multi foo(A) { say "A" }; multi foo(B) { say "B" }; foo(B.new)
camelia rakudo-moar dfcf9f: OUTPUT«Ambiguous call to 'foo'; these signatures all match:␤:(A)␤:(B)␤ in sub foo at /tmp/wV8QRUJXF6:1␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/wV8QRUJXF6:1␤␤»
masak oh, maybe that makes sense. 15:23
"is" on a role means something like "compose at the last minute".
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tadzik I just noticed that Supply.act is pretty much what Steroid's event system is doing 15:26
yoleaux 7 Dec 2014 01:37Z <raydiak> tadzik: sent you a PR for panda, s:g/path/IO/
tadzik raydiak: oh, thanks :) Will look at it later today
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psch hi #perl6 \o 15:28
yakudza \o 15:29
hoelzro jnthn: sounds good, thanks! 15:30
yoleaux 10:01Z <jnthn> hoelzro: I'd suggesting giving make_where_block a third optional argument, which defaults to QAST::Var.new( :name('$_'), :scope('lexical') ), and then pass in the QAST tree to make it do $_.signature where you are calling it.
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perltricks hey y'all is there a way to capture stderr from qx//? 15:41
lizmat good *, #perl6! 15:46
did pl6anet.org fall out of DNS ?
moritz I get connection resets from the DNS servers 15:49
pyrimidine Anyone else seeing NativeCall test fails on OS X? 15:54
gist.github.com/cjfields/bd7682e80c679eb1a49c
lizmat sees many tests flapping on OS X, period :-( 15:55
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pyrimidine lizmat: :( indeed 15:59
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El_Che spend the day configuring a nice perl5 soft that really could use p6 threading :). The soft is single threaded on a single cpu. Making it scale takes some work. Happy it works :) 16:09
brrt is still looking for a way to run a recent darwin on virtualbxo
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brrt virtualbox 16:09
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psch is there a different name for the colonpair on a used module's name without a space in contrast to with? 16:11
i.e. "use Foo :<Bar>;" vs "use Foo:from<java>;"
i'd happily call the left one an adverb, but not the right one
Ulti pyrimidine: yes 16:12
psch ah, S11 calls it an adverb as well 16:13
Ulti the same error here on OSX 10.9.5
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psch that does seem somehow lacking to me, but i guess it's the space or lack of space which changes whether we're changing what's used vs how we use 16:13
pyrimidine Ulti: was planning on an initial run at NativeCall implementation of htslib/samtools when I have time. Kinda puts a kink in that :P 16:14
Ulti :[
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Ulti yeah I was going to try and get SQUID bindings as a demo, but I think your plan is more useful 16:15
pyrimidine squid would be nice and probably simpler 16:16
Ulti erk it fails even more on Linux for me 16:17
this is with Rakudo-m from today
might be a better plan to use an actual release I guess 16:18
brrt hasn't seen great linux-related failures yet
but i haven't checked today either
nickpatch howdy all! 16:20
i made a new p6 module Geo::Region: github.com/patch/geo-region-pm6
masak nickpatch! \o/
nickpatch: add it to the ecosystem?
nickpatch masak: already done!
ported it from p5, so i would love any feedback on the code or api in regards to p6ishness 16:21
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lizmat nickpatch: the only thing that seemed a bit non-optimal, are the "contains" and "is_within methods 16:25
(also is-within maybe?)
seems like an awful lot of work to be done to get a boolean
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digitalw00t ? 16:25
lizmat otoh, it's only done once, right?
digitalw00t Morning
lizmat digitalw00t /o
Ulti nickpatch the long list of constants could maybe be an enum 16:28
colomon nickpatch: I've been fighting with Unicode (for $work rather than p6) since Thursday. And as long as you're here: utf16 in wchar_t on Linux: Wrong or Very Very Wrong? 16:29
Ulti nickpatch: perlcabal.org/syn/S12.html#Composit...from_Pairs
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TimToady STD calls foo:bar<baz> a longname 16:30
Ulti that way you have typeness and you dont pollute the namespace of someone using the module and you get helper methods like .invert
dalek kudo/newio: 6b53d38 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/core/CompUnitRepo/Local/Installation.pm:
fix last .IO.path.basename leftover
 16:31
kudo/newio: 4a9ebae | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/core/CompUnitRepo.pm:
fix CompUnitRepo.files

When asking for an installed file (i.e. a script) then we basically ask for a filename, and optionally for distname/auth/version. In contrast to asking for packages where we tend to ask for packagename, and optionally for a filename/auth/version.
kudo/newio: 8a9791d | moritz++ | Configure.pl:
Configure: warning on missing --prefix option

requested for star in rakudo/star#40, and added here for consistency
kudo/newio: dfcf9fc | moritz++ | src/core/Exception.pm:
Preserve warning message "0"
kudo/newio: bef54c7 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | / (4 files):
Merge branch 'nom' into newio
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psch TimToady: i'll call the parameter to use a "longname consisting of the module name and a colonpair" then, thanks 16:32
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colomon nickpatch++ # making patches to Geo::Region as I'm reading the source. :) 16:35
nickpatch lizmat: is_within is now is-within
colomon: yay! :D 16:36
lizmat: and what do you think in non-optimal? suggestions otherwise? 16:37
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nickpatch Ulti: i'll look into p6 enums. ty 16:38
raydiak gmorn #perl6 16:40
masak good antipodal morning, raydiak :)
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nickpatch colomon: i'm such not a C programmer that i won't be much help with wchar_t 16:42
raydiak heh good diametric evening, masak \o
NotJack is there a deeper writeup somewhere on what "native shaped arrays" are? 16:44
for mortals, I mean
PerlJam NotJack: Ever used PDL in P5? 16:45
NotJack nope
colomon nickpatch: ok. I will continue to consider it Wrong but not actually flame the programmers responsible. ;)
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TimToady S09 is the best we have on native shaped arrays, so far 16:46
NotJack thanks, I'll go refresh on that 16:47
TimToady but since they're not implemented yet, most everything there is subject to change
NotJack TimToady: Yeah, the reason I ask is because they're called out specifically as one of the last TODOs for a p6 launch
TimToady though the design does seem largely implementable
NotJack also, because I'm interested in anything novel p6 has to offer in the way of arrays and collection processing 16:48
TimToady jnthn is working on the underpinnings of that
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NotJack is prefix<||> a thing yet? 16:54
that looks neat
p6: say 'hi'; 16:55
camelia rakudo-{parrot,moar} dfcf9f: OUTPUT«hi␤»
NotJack p6: @shape = 4, 2; say ||@shape;
camelia rakudo-{parrot,moar} dfcf9f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfile␤Variable '@shape' is not declared␤at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤------> @shape⏏ = 4, 2; say ||@shape;␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤»
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NotJack p6: my @ints[4;2]; my @shape = 4,2; say @ints[||@shape]; 16:56
camelia rakudo-{parrot,moar} dfcf9f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfile␤Shaped variable declarations not yet implemented. Sorry. ␤at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤------> my @ints[4;2]⏏; my @shape = 4,2; say @ints[||@shape];␤»
NotJack wait, wait, "shaped arrays" means "arrays of a fixed size"?
ah, that clears it up then
PerlJam well, "shaped" also means "smooth or bumpy" to me. 16:57
(sparse arrays, arrays that are indexed on non-integer things, etc.) 16:58
NotJack Ok, I get it now.
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NotJack Do non-fixed-sized multidim arrays exist? 17:17
NotJack should go back and read the perl6 book
moritz NotJack: yes, but rakudo's support for them is very thin 17:20
TimToady basically, only multidimensional subscripts are supported currently, but they only work on arrays of arrays and such 17:22
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pmurias one hard problem I have in nqp-js, is how to compile subs that can be called before their surrounding scope come into existance. 17:27
example: XYZ::foo(); module XYZ { my $x; our sub foo() {...} } 17:28
TimToady make a stub that says "I don't exist yet!" ? 17:29
kurahaupo isn't the real problem the initialization of $z in pmurias' example? 17:30
$x I mean 17:31
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pmurias with ... being for example '$x := 123' 17:31
TimToady the call doesn't and shouldn't know what foo cares about later
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TimToady it just needs to fail gracefully until there really is a foo 17:31
moritz pmurias: compile to a lookup by name(s) 17:32
TimToady that also works, but might run slower
kurahaupo the same problem exists in p5 of course. it'd be nice to solve it
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TimToady m: XYZ::foo(); module XYZ { my $x = 21; our sub foo() { say $x * 2 } } 17:34
camelia rakudo-moar dfcf9f: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in numeric context in sub foo at /tmp/kBr9FfxGLt:1␤␤0␤»
TimToady ah, module isnt' initialized yet
m: XYZ::foo(); module XYZ { our $x = 21; our sub foo() { say $x * 2 } } 17:36
camelia rakudo-moar dfcf9f: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in numeric context in sub foo at /tmp/HpOyvbwrzs:1␤␤0␤»
TimToady now that one's incorrect, since it should initialize $x at INIT time
probably a known rakudo bug
m: XYZ::foo(); module XYZ { constant $x = 21; our sub foo() { say $x * 2 } }
camelia rakudo-moar dfcf9f: OUTPUT«42␤»
TimToady yes, our is initializing too late
if someone wants to doublecheck that we're testing for that, that'd be LHF 17:38
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TimToady to check, not to fix :) 17:38
moritz what exactly is initialized at INIT time? all our-scoped vars? 17:40
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kurahaupo so ... initializations won't be able to call yet-to-be-defined subs? 17:43
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mathw Sorry to barge in, but how do I read a single character from the console? 17:44
or rather, from stdin
kurahaupo oh, wait
INIT, not BEGIN 17:45
moritz mathw: $*IN.getc
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pmurias TimToady: re fail gracefully, so is it safe for subs that depend on variable from scope that don't exist yet to fail gracefully? 17:45
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kurahaupo makes note to self: actually *drink* wakeup coffee before chatting on irc 17:46
mathw moritz: thanks!
pmurias TimToady: for example stuff like XYZ::foo(); for @foo -> $x { my $z = $x+1; module XYZ { our sub foo {$z = 7;say $z;}} 17:47
m: XYZ::foo(); for 1,2 -> $x { my $z = $x+1; module XYZ { our sub foo {$z = 7;say $z;}}} 17:48
camelia rakudo-moar dfcf9f: OUTPUT«7␤»
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pmurias moritz: if I need to support things like that, the best solution I have found (and used in the previous nqp-js) is to compile the subs twice 17:51
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nickpatch Ulti: how does this look? github.com/patch/geo-region-pm6/compare/enum 18:01
not sure if i did the organization and naming the most p6ish or not 18:02
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TimToady if Region is exported, you shouldn't need to qualify with Region:: after the enum is imported 18:06
(unless there's an enum collision somewhere)
nickpatch TimToady: i would like that but it didn't work 18:07
TimToady mebbe it's a bug 18:08
m: module Foo { enum Bar is export <a b c> }; import Foo; say b 18:09
camelia rakudo-moar dfcf9f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/8rz6t_Q8Yo␤Undeclared routine:␤ b used at line 1␤␤»
TimToady yeah, bug
m: module Foo { enum Bar is export <a b c> }; import Foo; say Foo::b
camelia rakudo-moar dfcf9f: OUTPUT«b␤»
mathw "Slurpy positionals with type constraints are not supported." aaaw :(
TimToady it's impossible to guarantee the type of a lazy list at bind time unless we have manifest list types on the list being passed, which we don't currently 18:12
we are not Haskell :)
(currently :)
mathw well, can't have everything 18:13
I was getting a little carried away perhaps
TimToady we still have some difficulty implementing time travel, for some reason :)
we could conceivably wrap the list iterator with a lazy type check, but that'll generally be redundant with something in your routine anyway, and just slow things down 18:15
and only blow up just before the routine would anyway
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TimToady so when we do enable slurpy types, it will probably be to require arguments that can be known at compile time to be of that type 18:17
mathw yes probably best to let the existing run-time type failure code catch it rahter than adding more
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TimToady but that means inferring types through .list calls, likely 18:17
and type inference is probably post-6.0, if we ever decide to do it 18:18
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TimToady the basic problem with type inference is that it tends to require your user to be as smart as your compiler 18:19
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TimToady especially if your compiler is stupid about error messages, and just says "That can't possibly work." without saying why 18:20
mathw my problem with languages that do have type inference (other than stupid error messages) is when people then say "isn't this cool! We never need to mention types at all!" without realising apparently that from time to time it is good if your code does actually say what type things are expected to be 18:21
TimToady or if does explain it, but the explanation requires a graduate degree in mathematics
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TimToady yes, there's that failure mode as well 18:22
so I'm guess we'd enable it technically, but try not to overdo it culturally
*guessing
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TimToady sort of like with extensibility, we provide all the tools, then given them a language they mostly won't want to extend :) 18:23
*give 18:24
mathw well these library authors always want to extend things...
TimToady can't type toady...
don't they just
mathw extensibility is great, it's an admission also that you don't know everything today
so you give people tools to help add some of the things they know they need next week
a lack of extensibility being a major failing of many languages 18:25
IMO anyway
TimToady well, we'll just find new pretzel-shaped failure modes, but as we've said, we're looking to make new mistakes :)
mathw I've been falling in love with Lisp for this reason (and getting very annoyed with various Lisps for other reasons, like not being able to see what anything is meant to be)
for all the great things in Perl 6, type annotations are probably my absolute favourite 18:26
TimToady Lisp is not strong on visual distinctions...
mathw no it's not
in some ways that's a feature 18:27
but is everyone willing to make the tradeoff? Clearly not, or it'd be more popular
TimToady well, that space has been pretty thoroughly explored by now
we'd like to see most of the benefits of homoiconicity without actually doing it, like Tom Sawyer wanted to be drowned without having to go through with it (and manages to, by the end of the story) 18:28
mathw well surely there's no need for everything to be a list
if you've got a way to have macros that can see whatever the underlying code structure is... 18:29
oh wait that sounds familiar
TimToady well, really, it's a waterbed of moving the cultural assumptions from one spot to another
mathw "everything is a list" makes Lisp's macros rather simpler, I'm sure 18:30
TimToady something has to interpret the cultural meanings of the bits of those lists though
and that tends to be fairly opaque in Lisp
mathw yes
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mathw I was reading about Common Lisp's loop macro 18:30
stupidly powerful but unfortunatel requires you to learn a small secondary programming language to use it 18:31
TimToady those who do not understand cultures are doomed to reinvent them poorly :) 18:32
of course, everyone reinvents culture poorly all the time, but we'll leave that be :)
mathw well that's rather like repeating history because nobody understands that either 18:33
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mathw and how everyone keeps onw riting crap software that doesn't work because they don't understand *something* (I wish I knew what that something was so I could stop writing crap software that doesn't work) 18:33
TimToady the more people repeat history to you, the less likely you are to want to repeat it yourself...
mathw (I'm convinced it's an attitude problem and there's something wrong with the way we approach things) 18:34
Ulti nickpatch yeah looks good, shame about the export bug :'( 18:35
TimToady well, the FP folk think they know the answer, which basically boils down to: Only really, really smart peopel should write software, and even then, the computer should never trust them. :)
*people 18:36
mathw I think there's good ideas in FP, but it's not *the* answer because even they can't remove human error from the mix
well, not yet anyway
even dependently typed languages can still admit programs that don't do what was intended
and are really rather tricky to use 18:37
TimToady and only really, really, really, really smart people should write compilers :)
mathw I think that's a given
or we end up with languages like PHP
(yes yes I have a grudge about PHP's popularity)
btw, multis are awesome. Writing some code over there -> and loving it 18:38
geekosaur well, php wasn't originally intended to be what it became
it was a glorified macro processor
(roughly the same applies to C++, for that matter...) 18:39
mathw yes unfortunately people made more PHP instead of learning Perl
mmm yes and even fancy modern C++ is still saddled with some unfortunate parts of its C-derived past :(
TimToady
.oO(For some computer languages, version 1.0 was already promoted to its level of incompetence.)
 18:40
smls finds it kinda annoying that the whitespace before the closing brace in «rule foo { ... }» is significant
mathw oh dear, I think I might need an ncurses binding. sigh. 18:41
TimToady m: my rule foo {...} 18:42
camelia ( no output )
TimToady it is?
oh, you mean in terms of :sigspace
arnsholt mathw: I'm so sorry =) 18:43
TimToady well, but it really, really needs to be significant, because all our LTMing requires the previous thing to have eaten the space after it
otherwise rules can't participate in LTM easily
mathw arnsholt: it's my own fault. Apparently we have one but it's two years old and I don't know if it works/if it covers enough/if I even want to carry on with this insane new project 18:44
I'm going to have some dinner and consider what I'm doing to myself :)
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moritz TimToady: but that's not because whitespace is special, just because <.ws> isn't LTM safe. Right? 18:44
TimToady that makes whitespace special :) 18:45
arnsholt mathw: Also, note that the curses API is in part expressed in terms of *macros*
Which makes wrappers really sad =(
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mathw arnsholt: okay I shall see about definitely trying to stay away from that then 18:46
moritz TimToady: and if I wrote a grammar with declarative <.ws>, would it still terminate LTM? 18:48
I hope not
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vendethiel backlogs a bit 18:50
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vendethiel I can't believe I got spoiled tom sawyer by TimToady. 18:52
colomon I can't believe you haven't read Tom Sawyer. ;)
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colomon Also, it's 150 years old, I don't think we need spoiler warnings anymore. :) 18:53
TimToady it's, like, been out for a couple months now!
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vendethiel I wasn't complaining :P. Just being surprised 18:53
TimToady well, tom sawyer was a spoiled child to begin with... 18:54
colomon Let's not white-wash his past... 18:55
smls Ulti: ping
TimToady likes colomon++'s de-fence
colomon ;) 18:56
smls .tell Ulti You can use this to convert pygmentize output to inline styles that are allowed on wordpress.com: github.com/smls/undef/blob/master/...-styles.p6 18:58
yoleaux smls: I'll pass your message to Ulti.
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Ulti cool thanks smls 19:00
yoleaux 18:58Z <smls> Ulti: You can use this to convert pygmentize output to inline styles that are allowed on wordpress.com: github.com/smls/undef/blob/master/...-styles.p6
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carlin is there no chown in perl 6? 19:14
ah, the spec mentions it but it's in the Here Be Dragons section 19:16
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nickpatch Ulti, TimToady: thanks for the feedback! merged. i'll just remove the enum namespace whenever the bug is fixed. 19:23
Ulti carlin wouldnt you need perl6 running as root? 19:24
carlin Ulti: that's the usecase. creating a file as root and then chown()ing it 19:25
moritz used it in perl5 just the other day 19:26
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mathw aaw NativeCall is failing its tests :( 19:41
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dalek rl6-roast-data: 9a52747 | coke++ | / (4 files):
today (automated commit)
 19:50
carlin I'm guessing there is no way to drop privileges yet either 19:51
moritz except maybe through nativecall 19:52
carlin that could work 19:53
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mathw t/07-writebarrier.t .... ok 20:15
*** Error in `/home/matthew/rakudobrew/moar-HEAD/install/bin/moar': munmap_chunk(): invalid pointer: 0x00007f9ba060ca40 ***
t/08-callbacks.t .......
Failed 3/5 subtests 20:16
moritz so far, my experiments with kvm guests on the new server are discouraging 20:17
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moritz twice the installation of the guest system hung, at different (and seemingly arbitrary) points 20:18
El_Che moritz: what guest system? 20:19
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moritz El_Che: debian testing 20:19
(same as the host)
timotimo so it's systemd's fault!
yoleaux 09:37Z <azawawi> timotimo: Please see github.com/azawawi/farabi6/issues/59
09:48Z <azawawi> timotimo: im currently busy a bit @ $work. Hopefully workload will lighten up a bit after December. The HTTP::Server::Async idea is great. Is EventSource possible with it?
moritz timotimo: it's nice to have a scapegoat, it's nicer not need one :-) 20:20
timotimo .tell azawawi tony-o built a little "HiJacking" middleware that allows us to steal sockets at an early point so that we can do special things for websockets and eventsource. websockets are going to require some extra fiddling to get the protocol right, whereas eventsource is easy, but only one-way
yoleaux timotimo: I'll pass your message to azawawi.
El_Che moritz: I have only run rhel and debian stable in production. With no problems what so ever. Pure kvm and through a RHEV layer (commercial product based on ovirt which in turns uses kvm)
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moritz El_Che: I honestly don't know if it's kvm that's to blame, or the installer, or the hardware, or anything else 20:23
timotimo i sure hope the hardware's fine
moritz hopes so too
either it has only 6 cores, and I misread the HT stuff, or I have to enable HT in the bios 20:24
'cause currently it only shows 6 cores
timotimo i didn't know you could turn HT on or off
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carlin mathw: it looks like there was a change to NativeCall's tests that depends on moarvm cb3d176, but that commit is not used by default 20:25
moritz during this journey to a server, I notice how much I don't know about servers, data centers, networks and all the gory rest
mathw carlin: ooh 20:27
masak sergot++ # perl6advent.wordpress.com/2014/12/0...th-ssltls/ 20:30
moritz tried to install the guest directly through debootstrap, and failed because of that new grub2 thingy
sergot++ 20:31
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[Coke] TIL that in java, == on two Integers isn't doing what you might think. 20:38
mathw oh yes that's fun, that is
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[Coke] I actually have code in prod that might be doing this wrong. 20:40
moritz so what does it do? 20:42
arnsholt Compares for pointer identity, not integer equality
IIRC ints <128 will always get the same object, but bigger than that you're SOL I think 20:43
psch the integer cache is vm specific afair 20:44
but yeah, signed byte range gets cached 20:45
timotimo sergot: so all you need to do to get SSL support in HTTP::UserAgent is install it via panda or similar?
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timotimo not even "use" it? 20:45
psch there's also the system property java.lang.IntegerCache.high, so it's platform dependent heh
timotimo perl6advent.wordpress.com/2014/12/0...mment-9846 20:46
bartolin moritz: I've always used "virt-install" to install kvm guests and can't remember relevant problems. an easy way is to provide an installer-iso via "--cdrom /path/to/installer.iso" 20:47
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moritz bartolin: that's basically what I'm doing, except with virt-manager 20:48
maybe that's the problem
sergot timotimo: that's right
timotimo i find your definition of "web crawler" slightly surprising 20:49
to me, crawling was always also following links around and such
moritz lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2006/...00451.html same problem report 2006, and closed as not reproducib^H^Hable
oh fun, now lilo installation also hangs 20:51
bartolin moritz: very strange :/
moritz ah, also uses os-prober
timotimo lilo? 20:52
i haven't heard that name in what feels like 10 years
moritz I last heard it when I learned for LPIC-1 20:53
but the debian installer does seem to come with optional support for lilo
bartolin moritz: what kind of disk image do you use for the guest?
raydiak before everyone starts going to bed...unanswered question/idea I had recently: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-12-07#i_9769529 20:54
moritz bartolin: debian testing iso
[Coke] goes to try the http advent post, but is foiled by lack of http_proxy support. 20:55
raydiak basically just looking for a way to have more structured object properties without a bunch of custom initializers and accessors, and w/out extra complication in the public interface
moritz raydiak: what you want is magic. What you'll get is confusion. 20:56
bartolin moritz: oh, i meant the virtual disk you install the guest system to. there are different formats (raw, qcow2 etc.) 20:57
moritz bartolin: qcow2
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bartolin moritz: that should be fine ... 20:59
sergot timotimo: yeah, you are right about the crawling 21:02
and we can do what you said with UserAgent, but it was not the main goal to make it easy, but make it doable.
raydiak moritz: someone tried to tell me something similar about learning perl 6 :) nevertheless thanks for the perspective, I'll mentally file it under ETOOMAGIC then 21:03
sergot WWW::Mechanize will be the next step to 'full' web crawling
timotimo: I just flatted it for the article 21:04
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hoelzro I would like to see something like Mojo::DOM in Perl 6 21:05
hoelzro already hears the "well volunteered"s coming
colomon indeed. ;) 21:06
masak well, you said it :)
hoelzro heh
the problem with wanting to write P6 modules is that I find bugs, and then I try to fix them =P
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moritz hoelzro: usually it's the same for me, but with s/modules/docs/ 21:07
masak same for me, but with s/modules/other bugs/ 21:08
hoelzro masak: hahahaha
moritz: my bug fixing attempts usually lead me to doc improvement attempts as well, heh 21:09
psch .oO( the problem with wanting to write other bugs is that i find bugs... ) 21:10
masak :P 21:12
are we all set for advent post tomorrow? 21:13
tadzik is smls? :)
smls soon
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tadzik i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/origin...on_(1).jpg 21:15
timotimo i was kind of under the impression that advent calendar posts were supposed to be quite long
maybe with a more correct understanding, i'll be able to find something to write about and do it in the time until the next empty slot
which is the day after tomorrow?
[Coke] (long) nope
tadzik the day after tomorrow is free as far as I know 21:16
pyrimidine Ulti: let me know if you need me to chime in on the advent calendar post 21:17
timotimo jnthn: you were right about setting compilation, btw: t.h8.lv/setting_compile_without_callgraph.html 21:18
the number of gen2 roots doesn't continue climbing forever, but the time per gc run is 21:19
is going up almost constantly
interestingly, the time difference between a minor and major collection seems to disappear
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smls Advent post scheduled. 21:22
masak \o/ 21:23
smls timotimo: If you browse the advent posts for past years, you'll see that there are both long and short ones. 21:24
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dalek nda: c156e8c | raydiak++ | bin/ (5 files):
Catch up to IO spec changes
 21:27
nda: 69f83fe | tadzik++ | bin/ (5 files):
Merge pull request #125 from raydiak/master

Catch up to IO spec changes
masak 'night, #perl6 21:31
timotimo gnite masask 21:32
Ulti pyrimidine it's more if you want to...
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pyrimidine Ulti: Sure, I can have a look whenever you're ready. No hurry, just /msg me when you're ready 21:36
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perltricks Hey all, is there a way to capture stderr from qx//? 21:57
jercos aside from 2>&1?
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perltricks jercos: hmm oh yeah I didn't think of that, thanks. 22:00
Gosh even works in cmd.exe support.microsoft.com/kb/110930
psch more progress \o/ 22:01
my own test case for jvm-interop multis works now
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psch the CRC32 test case doesn't yet, boxing of VMArrayREPR is missing 22:01
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psch eh, VMArrayInstance, not *REPR 22:05
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smls perltricks: qx// and other external command running features in Perl 6 are still somewhat limited/unsatisfactory 22:10
I brought it up 2 days ago: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-12-06#i_9767939
Ulti just need popen2 and popen3
smls Hopefully that area will improve quite a bit before the 6.0 release
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smls moritz, Ulti: I tried to add my advent post to the "2014" category, but it didn't stick (stayed in "Uncategorized"). Can you see if it works when you do it as admin? 22:25
PerlJam smls: I just did it. It stuck. 22:26
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smls ok, thanks. 22:27
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TimToady smls: looks good to me 22:36
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TimToady the use of .comb[0] to get the first char bugs me a little, but only because my hindbrane expects .comb to be eager, and working on a string longer than 2 chars 22:38
I suppose .ord.chr might be faster, actually 22:39
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TimToady well, but you'd have to hyper 'em both 22:39
smls TimToady: thanks 22:40
re comb, for a string that will be either 1 or 2 chars long, it should be fine?
TimToady oh, not hyper, it's in a *.comb 22:41
oh, sure, I'm not suggestin gyou cahnge it
just saying that's the only thing that bugged me, ever so slightly
all in all, very well written 22:43
jnthn timotimo: Interesting...when we get to the bottom of what's going on here, there's probably a nice win to be had. 22:44
Though given it's the only profile I've seen that exhibits GC behavior like this, I'm not sure how much impact it will have on programs in general. 22:45
Still, getting CORE.setting compilation time down a good chunk more is always welcome. 22:46
psch jnthn: the CRC32 example from last year doesn't seem to work for me on nom 22:49
jnthn It worked/ran when I wrote it. 22:51
No idea what happened to it since.
I'll be doing some work on the JVM backend to get the 6model parametric extensions stuff in place shortly, though
psch ClassCastException, VMArrayInstance to JavaObjectWrapper, fwiw 22:52
jnthn No idea...maybe can be bisected...
Though, can't be that many commits that have touched interop.
TimToady seems to point to a paucity of regression testing... 22:53
psch i might have a look at that as well, but i'd first like to get the matching of signatures a bit more sturdy
the bit about getting the e.g. Long we get from unbox_i to match against an int in the signature still seems a bit fuzzy to me, not sure how to get there 22:54
lizmat good night, #perl6!
psch TimToady: tests probably make sense, and we have javac anyway so we can compile whatever we want... although similarly to NativeCall this feels a bit like it should live elsewhere 22:55
do similar tests exist for parrot?
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psch actually, i think for the few primitive cases that exist i might just settle on a switch 22:59
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jnthn psch: One other idea for tests is to test against things in the Java class library, then nothing to compile 23:06
psch oh, of course. we can test replace and such easily 23:07
smls hrm after making a small edit to the post, the category fell back to "Uncategorized"... :(
Wordpress doesn't seem to like me.
leedo_ having administered a Wordpress install for work, i can say it likes no one 23:09
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jnthn gets some rest 23:11
TimToady it looks to me like it's in both 2014 and Uncategoriezed 23:12
smls yeah I just added the category 2014 via the "bulk edit" feature in the posts list, and that's the result 23:13
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smls I'll stop touching it now, and let the admins fix it :P 23:13
TimToady professes not to be an expert...
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TimToady afk & # car's done 23:16
japhb smls++ # Nice advent post 23:19
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psch needs sleep o/ 23:42
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