»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz on 22 December 2015.
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AlexDaniel m: my @a = <a b c>; say @a\ \ \ [1] 02:08
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«b␤»
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AlexDaniel m: my @a = <a b c>; say @a.[1] 02:13
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«b␤»
AlexDaniel m: my @a = <a b c>; say @a . [1]
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/Yf0DuFxFCt␤Unsupported use of . to concatenate strings; in Perl 6 please use ~␤at /tmp/Yf0DuFxFCt:1␤------> 3my @a = <a b c>; say @a .7⏏5 [1]␤»
AlexDaniel :/
m: my @a = <a b c>; say @a.[1] 02:14
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«b␤»
AlexDaniel m: my @a = <a b c>; say @a..[1]
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«3..1␤»
AlexDaniel m: my @a = <a b c>; say @a....[1]
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«(a)␤»
AlexDaniel m: my @a = <a b c>; say 1R[@a] # heh 02:17
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/RnZlZRoxNE␤Confused␤at /tmp/RnZlZRoxNE:1␤------> 3my @a = <a b c>; say 17⏏5R[@a] # heh␤»
dalek kudo-star-daily: 64f678d | coke++ | log/ (9 files):
today (automated commit)
 02:20
kudo-star-daily: be4f27b | coke++ | log/ (9 files):
today (automated commit)
02:20 sufrostico left
AlexDaniel “MVM_nfg_get_synthetic_info called with out-of-range synthetic” wtf 02:25
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AlexDaniel I can reproduce it (in fact, it gets in my way). What can I do now? Is there any way to get a stacktrace or something? 02:34
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gnommer Can I use unicode symbols in token's names ( my token Δ { ... } ) ?? 03:07
skids tokens are identifiers so they have to follow the alphanumeric rules. 03:08
gnommer p6: my token Δ { abc };
camelia ( no output )
gnommer p6: my token буква { abc };
camelia ( no output )
Hotkeys well technically
those are all letters
m: my $буква = "Ay"; say $буква 03:09
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«Ay␤»
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TEttinger m: my $ꃔ "Yi!"; say $ꃔ 03:16
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/NMzLh37joW␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/NMzLh37joW:1␤------> 3my $ꃔ7⏏5 "Yi!"; say $ꃔ␤ expecting any of:␤ infix␤ infix stopper␤ statement end␤ statement mod…»
TEttinger m: my $ꃔ = "Yi!"; say $ꃔ
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«Yi!␤»
gnommer p6: my $s="1234"; my token год {\d\d\d\d}; $s ~~ m/<год>/; say $<год> 03:17
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Error encoding ASCII string: could not encode codepoint 1075␤»
gnommer p6:my $s="1234"; my token year {\d\d\d\d}; $s ~~ m/<year>/; say $<year> 03:18
p6: my $s="1234"; my token year {\d\d\d\d}; $s ~~ m/<year>/; say $<year>
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«｢1234｣␤»
TEttinger hmm.
that does seem like an odd difference
03:19 cibs left
TimToady nqp might be cheating somewhere... 03:20
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gnommer p6: my $sum="1234"; my token Σ {\d\d\d\d}; $sum ~~ m/<Σ>/; say $<Σ> 03:22
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Error encoding ASCII string: could not encode codepoint 931␤»
TimToady p6: my $sum="1234"; my token TESTΣ {\d\d\d\d}; $sum ~~ m/<TESTΣ>/; say $<TESTΣ>
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Error encoding ASCII string: could not encode codepoint 931␤»
TimToady looks like a low-level npq bug 03:23
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Hotkeys m: 'ꃔ'.uniname 03:46
camelia ( no output )
Hotkeys m: 'ꃔ'.uniname.say
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«YI SYLLABLE FAP␤»
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skids m: ().perl.say; [].perl.say; $[].perl.say; $().perl.say 03:57
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«()␤[]␤$[]␤Use of Nil in string context in block <unit> at /tmp/4KVUwb6EHb line 1␤""␤»
skids m: $().WHAT.say 03:58
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«Use of Nil in string context in block <unit> at /tmp/qsubM44sqj line 1␤(Str)␤»
03:58 gnommer left
skids wonders if $() is doing something useful or whether the empty list special case should be made to work there. 04:01
m: @().perl.say # pre-GLR relic? 04:02
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«(Nil,)␤»
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SmokeMachine____ hi! how can I test if a return is a failure? 04:19
m: sub f{1/0}; my $ret = f; say $ret ~~ Failure
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«False␤»
Hotkeys m: sub f{1/0}; my $ret = f; say $ret 04:20
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«Attempt to divide 1 by zero using div␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/gMFy7ynq4o line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/gMFy7ynq4o line 1␤␤»
SmokeMachine____ Hotkeys: yes, but I don't want to say if it's not a failure... 04:21
my idea was:
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Hotkeys m: sub f{1/0}; my $ret = f; say $ret.WHAT 04:21
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«(Rat)␤»
SmokeMachine____ m: sub f{1/0}; my $ret = f; $ret.exception.throw if $ret ~~ Failure
camelia ( no output )
SmokeMachine____ but it's no a Failure...
*not
Hotkeys why not just use a try/catch 04:22
SmokeMachine____ Hotkeys: does Failure "activate" CATCH blocks?
(in my case, the function is given by the user... so it's always possible to return a Failure...) 04:23
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Hotkeys m: sub f {fail('foo')}; my $ret = f; say $ret ~~ Failure 04:24
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«True␤»
Hotkeys (1/0).WHAT 04:25
m: (1/0).WHAT
camelia ( no output )
Hotkeys m: (1/0).WHAT.say
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«(Rat)␤»
Hotkeys are you sure that 1/0 does fail?
(if you know you'll get a fail then sure it' 04:26
ll work)
SmokeMachine____ m: sub f{1/0}; my $ret = f; $ret.say
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«Attempt to divide 1 by zero using div␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/p6JEhxA_Jh line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/p6JEhxA_Jh line 1␤␤»
SmokeMachine____ the doc says: Sink (void) context causes a Failure to throw
m: sub f{1/0}; my $ret = f; $ret; say "after" 04:27
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«WARNINGS for /tmp/pTwDS7Cq_K:␤Useless use of $ret in sink context (line 1)␤after␤»
AlexDaniel // TODO … todo what?
SmokeMachine____ Hotkeys: ☝️ 04:28
Hotkeys: the problem is that I don't know if it'll be a Failure... 04:29
Hotkeys m: (1 / 0).WHAT.say 04:30
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camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«(Rat)␤» 04:30
Hotkeys m: (1 div 0).WHAT.say
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«(Failure)␤»
Hotkeys There's a failure for you
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AlexDaniel wait, why would 1/0 be a failure? 04:31
it's a perfectly fine Rat as far as I can see
Hotkeys yeah
m: (1/0).nude.say 04:32
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«(1 0)␤»
AlexDaniel so what are you trying to do?
what do you mean by “if return is a failure”? It just isn't
SmokeMachine____ AlexDaniel: when I call a method on it, it throws a exception... looks like a Failure... 04:33
jdv79 hola
SmokeMachine____ m: sub f{1/0}; my $ret = f; $ret.say
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«Attempt to divide 1 by zero using div␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/gwDm9ydtY3 line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/gwDm9ydtY3 line 1␤␤»
AlexDaniel SmokeMachine____: okay, then just catch it?
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SmokeMachine____ I don't want to catch... I want to discover if the return is a Failure or not... with out running anything on a "not Failure" return 04:36
I am writing a "auto function fuzz tester"... and the function can do anything that the user wants... 04:37
AlexDaniel SmokeMachine____: the result is a good looking Rat, it's not a failure. Failure comes up when you put this rat into things that don't handle it well
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SmokeMachine____ I'll test the return to discover if the function "worked" with that input or not... 04:37
Hotkeys but like 04:38
if you do a catch
you then know that it failed
and if it doesn't fail
catch block doesn't run
no issue
SmokeMachine____ but that return doesn't "activate" the catch... 04:39
I'll post my code...
Hotkeys but see 04:40
it isn't a failure then
AlexDaniel m: my $x = 1/0; { $x.say; CATCH { default { say ‘Houston, we have a problem’ } } };
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«Houston, we have a problem␤»
AlexDaniel m: my $x = 1/5; { $x.say; CATCH { default { say ‘Houston, we have a problem’ } } };
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«0.2␤»
Hotkeys if you do something to $x that actually makes it divide
that's a failure
but 1/0 is perfectly okay
it's a rat with 1 as nu and 0 as de
m: sub f{1/0}; my $ret = f; $ret.nu.say; $ret.de.say 04:41
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«Method 'nu' not found for invocant of class 'Rat'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/apLupCyhQ2 line 1␤␤»
Hotkeys rude
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Hotkeys do I have to spell the whole thing for separate 04:41
m: sub f{1/0}; my $ret = f; $ret.numerator.say; $ret.denominator.say
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«1␤0␤»
AlexDaniel yeah
Hotkeys like that's a perfectly fine rat
SmokeMachine____ My code www.irccloud.com/pastebin/2OFsNbFN/
Hotkeys it's only when you call .say on it that it fails
or other stuff
AlexDaniel SmokeMachine____: so I get False False False False… what should I get instead? 04:49
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AlexDaniel some error, right? 04:49
right
SmokeMachine____: but nothing throws an exception so there is no problem at all currently 04:50
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SmokeMachine____ try this: github.com/FCO/Test-Fuzz 04:51
the code on pastern was wrong...
the sample on github's README, works for me... 04:52
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AlexDaniel SmokeMachine____: yeah, it works 04:54
you can run something that will throw an exception, like: ~$return;
and then your CATCH block will work just fine 04:55
what I don't understand is why would you want to do that
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SmokeMachine____ AlexDaniel: my intention is find possible bugs on functions... 04:56
"automagically"...
AlexDaniel SmokeMachine____: okay, then you have to call your function
oh you do
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SmokeMachine____ that's what I do... with a big amount of input data... 04:57
AlexDaniel right. 04:58
SmokeMachine____: okay, interestingly what you get back is Rat
SmokeMachine____: so your function is working fine
and it returns a Rat 04:59
now let's say your function was doing something else
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SmokeMachine____ Yes, I think it is working fine... good point... 04:59
AlexDaniel like: $bla + $ble + "test" 05:00
SmokeMachine____ that function on README sample has a "bug" found with my lib... :)
AlexDaniel then it will probably attempt to stringify Rat
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AlexDaniel and then you'll get your division by zero, I guess 05:00
no, you'll get another error :D 05:01
Hotkeys that might also just give you the
"must start with a base-10 number blah blah"
m: say 1/0+"test" 05:02
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '3⏏5test' (indicated by ⏏)␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/L9m7bZgSX5 line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/L9m7bZgSX5 line 1␤␤»
Hotkeys yeah
AlexDaniel ~ $bla + ble
Hotkeys that
:p
m: say 1/0~"test"
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«Attempt to divide 1 by zero using div␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/59OiJqjaWt line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/59OiJqjaWt line 1␤␤»
Hotkeys works
AlexDaniel why do we even get a Rat?
Hotkeys because it's a rat
AlexDaniel m: my Int $x = 1; my UInt $y = 2; say ($x + $y).WHAT
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
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SmokeMachine____ thank you all for your help! 05:05
AlexDaniel SmokeMachine____: by the way, it looks like a cool module
SmokeMachine____ AlexDaniel: thanks! if you wanna help... :) 05:06
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AlexDaniel SmokeMachine____: I'm not sure if “is fuzzed” trait is helpful though. If I was going to use this module, I'd probably expect something like: fuzz(&myfunction) 05:07
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SmokeMachine____ I was thinking of doing both... 05:08
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SmokeMachine____ and on your script you could do: 05:09
multi MAIN(:$fuzz-test!) {Test::Fuzz.run-tests}
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SmokeMachine____ thank you all! 05:11
have a good night!
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RabidGravy Rarr! 09:16
DrForr o/ 09:18
sortiz \o #perl6 09:28
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gregf_ m: class Foo { has Hash $.items is rw; method decrease($item){ self.items[$item]-=1; }; method []($item) { } } 09:54
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/VPDOKmpROi␤Missing block␤at /tmp/VPDOKmpROi:1␤------> 3($item){ self.items[$item]-=1; }; method7⏏5 []($item) { } }␤»
gregf_ should it not be possible to implement a method like : method []($item){} ?
RabidGravy depends what you think it should do 09:55
gregf_ method {}($item) { self.items{$item]; } <== sorry that 09:57
so the class has a hash and when i say something like this: my $f = Foo.new({a =>100, b => 200, c => 300}); print $f{a}; <- this should print 100 09:58
RabidGravy took me a few seconds, but ah 09:59
you need to make Foo an Associative and implement AT-KEY 10:00
FROGGS m: class Foo { has Hash $.items is rw; method decrease($item){ self.items[$item]-=1; }; method AT-KEY($key) { $!items{$key} } }; say Foo.new(items => {a => 1, b => 2})<a>
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«1␤»
RabidGravy doc.perl6.org/language/subscripts#M...bscripting
gregf_ ah - nice 10:01
FROGGS m: class Foo { has Hash $.items is rw; method new(Associative $h) { self.bless: items => $h }; method decrease($item){ self.items[$item]-=1; }; method AT-KEY($key) { $!items{$key} } }; say Foo.new({a => 1, b => 2})<a>
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«1␤»
psch m: class A { has $.x handles <AT-KEY BIND-KEY> = Hash.new; }; my $x = A.new; $x{'foo'} = 1; say $x.perl
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«A.new(x => ${:foo(1)})␤»
FROGGS ohh
such magic
psch++
gregf_ RabidGravy++ :) 10:02
psch still needs the .new though :)
gregf_ btw, even when i have not instantiated an object why does it not throw a null pointer exception?
FROGGS because there is no null pointer 10:03
psch m: say 1 + Int # kind of the closest we got
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«Invocant requires an instance of type Int, but a type object was passed. Did you forget a .new?␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/a0kiTnFC5F line 1␤␤»
FROGGS the type itself is also an object you can talk to and talk about
gregf_ like so class Foo { has $.a is rw; method bar(){ say "Barred!"; } } ; class Bar { $.f Foo handles <bar> is rw; sub baz(){ self.bar(); } } ; Bar.new.baz 10:04
FROGGS: by null pointer i meant, method on undefined object
FROGGS m: class Foo { has $.a is rw; method bar(){ say "Barred!"; } } ; class Bar { has Foo $.f handles <bar> is rw; sub baz(){ self.bar(); } } ; Bar.new.baz
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/QxzKvPsLn9␤'self' used where no object is available␤at /tmp/QxzKvPsLn9:1␤------> 3 Foo $.f handles <bar> is rw; sub baz(){7⏏5 self.bar(); } } ; Bar.new.baz␤ expecting any of:␤ term␤»
FROGGS see? 10:05
err
ohh it is a sub
m: class Foo { has $.a is rw; method bar(){ say "Barred!"; } } ; class Bar { has Foo $.f handles <bar> is rw; method baz(){ self.bar(); } } ; Bar.new.baz
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«Barred!␤»
gregf_ err. sorry. just typed that on the fly *hides*
FROGGS you can call method on types if they dont use self, which implies "I want an instance" 10:06
gregf_ FROGGS: there, you havent instantiated Foo?
FROGGS m: class Foo { has $.a is rw; method bar(){ say self; } } ; class Bar { has Foo $.f handles <bar> is rw; method baz(){ self.bar(); } } ; Bar.new.baz
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«(Foo)␤»
FROGGS gregf_: yes, you can implement static methods
m: class Foo { has $.a is rw; method bar(){ say self.defined; } } ; class Bar { has Foo $.f handles <bar> is rw; method baz(){ self.bar(); } } ; Bar.new.baz
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«False␤»
gregf_ oh, so self is for class as well as instance variables? 10:07
FROGGS yes, kinda like in Perl 5
gregf_ :|
FROGGS it is just the invocant
but you can restrict it... 10:08
gregf_ and i can see that self is mandatory *there was a discussion some days back.. and i lost the main point in the conversation*
oh - ok
FROGGS m: class Foo { has $.a is rw; method bar(:D:){ say self.defined; } } ; class Bar { has Foo $.f handles <bar> is rw; method baz(){ self.bar(); } } ; Bar.new.baz
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/m3dtKx1iCz␤Missing block␤at /tmp/m3dtKx1iCz:1␤------> 3class Foo { has $.a is rw; method bar(:7⏏5D:){ say self.defined; } } ; class Bar {␤»
FROGGS m: class Foo { has $.a is rw; method bar(D:){ say self.defined; } } ; class Bar { has Foo $.f handles <bar> is rw; method baz(){ self.bar(); } } ; Bar.new.baz
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/GukiE8AYry␤Invalid typename 'D' in parameter declaration.␤at /tmp/GukiE8AYry:1␤------> 3class Foo { has $.a is rw; method bar(D7⏏5:){ say self.defined; } } ; class Bar { ␤»
FROGGS m: class Foo { has $.a is rw; method bar(Foo:D:){ say self.defined; } } ; class Bar { has Foo $.f handles <bar> is rw; method baz(){ self.bar(); } } ; Bar.new.baz
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«Invocant requires an instance of type Foo, but a type object was passed. Did you forget a .new?␤ in method bar at /tmp/RVvO2EJrOA line 1␤ in method baz at /tmp/RVvO2EJrOA line 1␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/RVvO2EJrOA line 1␤␤»
FROGGS there
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FROGGS there you enforce that bar can only ever be called on a defined Foo 10:09
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gregf_ hmm 10:09
FROGGS and a defined Foo is an instanciated Foo
and you can also only access attributes from instances 10:10
perlawhirl hi perlers
FROGGS if you want static attributes, you use "my" instead of "has"
perlawhirl is there such a thing as a set of lists?
m: set ([<a b c>], [<a b c>], [<d e f>])
camelia ( no output )
perlawhirl m: set ([<a b c>], [<a b c>], [<d e f>]).say
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«([a b c] [a b c] [d e f])␤»
FROGGS which probably is a rare use-case, but it exists
gregf_ FROGGS++ 10:11
perlawhirl m: say set ([<a b c>], [<a b c>], [<d e f>])
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«set(a, c, b, e, d, f)␤»
gregf_ FROGGS: thanks for explaining!
FROGGS gregf_: :o)
psch m: say [<a b c>] =:= [<a b c>] 10:12
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«False␤»
FROGGS perlawhirl: I'm not sure if Sets will operate on that level...
psch m: say set($(<a b c>), $(<a b c>), $(<d e f>))
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«set((a b c), (a b c), (d e f))␤»
psch hm, actually i'm not sure if Sets use =:= or eqv
FROGGS m: say ($(<a b c>), $(<a b c>), $(<d e f>)).Bag
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«bag((d e f), (a b c), (a b c))␤»
psch they probably should use eqv, but don't seem to?
m: say [<a b c>] eqv [<a b c>] 10:13
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«True␤»
FROGGS m: say ($(<a b c>), $(<a b c>), $(<d e f>)).Bag{$(<a b c>)}
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«0␤»
perlawhirl fair enough... just playing with bags and sets to get my head around them
ie, i dont have a need (yet) for a set of lists
psch m: my $x = <a b c>; say set($x, $x, $(<d e f>)) 10:15
camelia rakudo-moar 595890: OUTPUT«set((a b c), (d e f))␤»
psch yeah i think that hints at =:= instead of eqv
dalek osystem: 6c85109 | (Salvador Ortiz)++ | META.list:
Add DBDish::ODBC to ecosystem

Uses the DBDish infrastructure to provide access to ODBC This driver will be maintained separately.		 10:16
perlawhirl psch: cool, so set of Seq seems to work if i define them first. ta 10:17
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RabidGravy "Files=3, Tests=48394" - that's the kind of numbers we like ;-) 10:23
sortiz++ # now to remember who it was that was asking about the other day 10:24
10:24 TimToady joined
sortiz RabidGravy, was nine++, among others. 10:25
10:26 rindolf joined
RabidGravy I wonder if I sneaked a UInt7 type in anyone would notice 10:28
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Woodi hi #perl6 :) 10:31
is there a way to make grammar parsing lazy ? 10:32
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RabidGravy I don't think so, but you could design things such the effect is a lazy parse 10:37
jnthn You could wrap a gather around the parse call and do takes in action methods ;) 10:41
psch or implement &cat :S 10:42
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psch i really like that this is a straight quote from the synopses: "The resulting Cat is lazy." 10:42
jnthn :D
Laziness is pretty hard :) 10:43
Cat will need some effort
RabidGravy our Cat is lazy, it was a struggle to get her out of our bed last night 10:44
I'm sure I had a thing somewhere that turned a Julia set into a stream of MIDI events 10:45
Woodi jnthn: thanx 10:46
RabidGravy but can I find it, no
ah 10:47
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nine Any statistics buff here? I have two medians, one for group A, one for group B. The one for group A looks better but this group has about twice the variance of group B. How can I tell if the result is significant? 11:19
RabidGravy haha, brilliant I'd forgotten that I had got it to do rabidgravy.com/mandelbrot-midi-0.png 11:26
tadzik mandelbrot midi? :) 11:28
RabidGravy lilypond is rather good
tadzik yeah, the compile times are quite a bit of a pain though :)
RabidGravy yeah, it generates a MIDI stream with the notes based on the mandelbrot set 11:29
tadzik haha, awesome
11:30 kid51 joined
RabidGravy this is the P5 version github.com/jonathanstowe/midi-fractal 11:31
jast nine: I believe that's not evident from what you've explained so far. significance testing deals with p-values, which in turn compares sample results to a model. I'm assuming the medians are your results. what's your model?
11:32 vendethiel joined
jast or, more to the point, what's your null hypothesis and how do your values relate to it? 11:34
RabidGravy tadzik, the Audio::PortMIDI can *read* input right now, going to test the output at some point today, it should work but I haven't tested it yet
tadzik RabidGravy: read input, so see what comes in from a midi device? 11:35
RabidGravy yah
tadzik perfect, just what I need
RabidGravy github.com/jonathanstowe/Audio-PortMIDI 11:36
nine jast: as I'm dealing with "time for creating a customer's website" here I dare say that a normal distribution can be assumed. I guess what I'm asking is: can the "better" median in group A be sufficiently explained by the higher variance of my sample?
RabidGravy not finished yet, but may get you started
will be in a state to release over the weekend
tadzik awesome man 11:37
11:39 CIAvash left
RabidGravy right, off out for a bit 11:40
jast nine: for any significance testing you need to formulate a null hypothesis. I'm having a hard time coming up with one that is testable and relates to the result/conclusion you're after. seems to me like you're trying to do a meta-analysis on a single study, sort of 11:42
11:44 RabidGravy left
jast in contrast, let's take the simple case. you've got a normally distributed probability variable X that you're trying to analyze. you have a null hypothesis about it, and you make a measurement 11:45
in significance testing, you take your measurement of X and calculate the probability that X is "more extreme" than your measurement, and that's your p-value. 11:46
what you've got here is a two-dimensional probability variable (with a multinomial distribution over median *and* variance) 11:47
in order to do any significance testing, you have to make an assumption about that distribution 11:48
11:48 sortiz left
jast and all I can tell you is that I don't have any good assumptions for you :) 11:48
nine This sounds quite a bit harder than I'd hoped :) 11:50
jast given two distributions (which is what you've got data for) and no idea of how they relate to each other, all you can do is compare the distributions, but that says nothing about significance of anything
sorry :)
anyway, this is a case of finding the right question to ask 11:51
generally speaking, if you have high variance, the way to fix that is to reduce variance, and you do that by collecting more data. :} 11:52
11:52 azawawi joined 11:54 vendethiel left
jast I'm trying to think of something else to say that might be helpful but I'm a bit rusty in statistics... 11:54
azawawi hi
nine Both distributions are just time to create customer websites. One group with responsive design, the other with classical design + extra mobile version. Seems like going fully responsive would just take 7 % more time, but we only have 58 examples of those and standard deviation is at 70 % of the median. So my gut says that we shouldn't rely on the 7 % figure.
azawawi .seen FROGGS
yoleaux I saw FROGGS 10:13Z in #perl6: <FROGGS> m: say ($(<a b c>), $(<a b c>), $(<d e f>)).Bag{$(<a b c>)}
jast nine: one way to visualize it better, at least, is to scatterplot the two distributions 11:55
visualization is often enough to make these kinds of decisions
FROGGS azawawi: hi
jast actually in this case a candle diagram is probably enough 11:56
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jkramer Hello 11:57
jast if you want to actually crunch numbers, the Student's t-test may be relevant
11:57 Actualeyes left
jkramer I need some help understanding nested data structures. I have a hash %foo = foo => @some-array; (@some-array is empty). But when I do @bar = %foo<foo> then @bar is an array with one element which is an empty array. 11:58
Do I need to do some dereferencing as in Perl 5?
12:00 nadim joined
psch jkramer: in that specific case you bind ( := operator ) or slip ( .Slip method or prefix:<|> ) to not itemize the array in %foo<foo>. note that the former is similar to assigning the reference, while the latter lowers the content of the rhs array into the lhs 12:00
12:01 rindolf left
jast a 12:04
that was my internet connection acting up...
nine: I believe this would fit your situation: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welch's_t_test 12:05
nine jast: looking at the scatter plot, it's hard to imagine any other conclusion than that the variance is just too high to read anything into it. 12:06
jast see, that way was much easier :} 12:07
looking at the data doesn't always help, but when it does it helps very quickly
nine jast: thank you so much! You helped me a lot. 12:09
azawawi FROGGS: im working on updating Selenium::WebDriver atm 12:17
FROGGS azawawi: \o/ 12:20
azawawi: do you wanna see my patch btw?
azawawi: gist.github.com/FROGGS/8717727b20b18e6ea785 12:23
azawawi takes a look 12:26
FROGGS: looks good. why is LEAVE { ... } section commented? 12:27
FROGGS azawawi: I think that code exploded (not the exception itself)... maybe it does not anymore 12:28
azawawi: ahh, I remember 12:29
azawawi: $response can be Any, and that will fail when you call .content on it
12:31 wamba joined 12:37 nadim left
azawawi FROGGS: where is the code for Selenium::WebDriver::BlackBerry ? 12:39
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FROGGS azawawi: in the gist: gist.github.com/FROGGS/8717727b20b...kberry-pm6 12:51
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CurtisOvidPoe_ Afternoon, all! 12:56
moritz \o CurtisOvidPoe_
perlpilot CurtisOvidPoe_: greetings!
CurtisOvidPoe_ I’m finishing an article about Perl 6 for TechBeacon. Can anyone make any comments about performance work? 12:57
moritz CurtisOvidPoe_: jnthn has a grant for working on it; he's doing a good job
CurtisOvidPoe_: writing a memory profiler at the moment
CurtisOvidPoe_: also there's ongoing work on a smarter JIT compiler
news.perlfoundation.org/2016/02/gra...forma.html 12:58
perlpilot CurtisOvidPoe_: lizmat is constantly making small performance improvements too
lizmat CurtisOvidPoe_ : check out 6guts.wordpress.com for regular updates on the grant work 12:59
CurtisOvidPoe_ Thank you :)
13:00 skids joined
perlpilot CurtisOvidPoe_: At some point you might want to talk to people on #p6dev about what they're doing as that channel is more focused on development work. 13:05
tadzik ....there is #p6dev? 13:07
sjn o_O
lizmat irclog.perlgeek.de/p6dev
sjn oh, and o/ #perl6 :)
lizmat for the backlogging inclined :-)
nine sjn: jobs.atikon.com/content/werbeagentu...l#_entry_0 13:09
perlpilot tadzik: yeah, and you should be there! :)
sjn nine: ook, thanks :) 13:11
perlpilot btw, am I the only one who keeps reading "TechBeacon" as "TechBacon"? It's making me hungry 13:13
moritz nom nom nom 13:14
"to err is human. To propagate error to hundreds of machines is #devops". /me presses the "deploy" button...
azawawi FROGGS: what's 'phantomjs --version' on your linux machine? 13:20
FROGGS azawawi: 1.9.0 13:21
azawawi: am I using it actually?
probably not... 13:22
(yet)
azawawi ::PhantomJS 13:23
FROGGS: it is working on 2.1 and failing on 1.9.0
FROGGS: part of this code was done on my windows machine where i used the latest software
FROGGS okay, will keep that in mind 13:24
azawawi also github.com/SeleniumHQ/selenium/wik...reProtocol is now OBSOLETE 13:25
FROGGS happily I dont need it for testing the blackberry browser
azawawi w3c.github.io/webdriver/webdriver-spec.html
FROGGS aha
azawawi it was released "new" so most probably it is the same with minor alterations 13:27
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azawawi FROGGS: aha... github.com/ariya/phantomjs/issues/11421 13:37
FROGGS: "content-length" breaks phantomjs 1.9
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perlawhirl is there a succint way to get unique permutations? 14:06
this feels like it should work but maybe i'm missing something...
m: my @n = 1,1,2; say @n.permutations.grep:{ $_ eqv none @n }
camelia rakudo-moar 13ca30: OUTPUT«((1 1 2) (1 2 1) (1 1 2) (1 2 1) (2 1 1) (2 1 1))␤»
moritz m: say (1, 1, 2).permutations.map(~*).unique 14:07
camelia rakudo-moar 13ca30: OUTPUT«(1 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 1)␤»
moritz m: say (1, 1, 2).permutations.map(~*).unique.join(', ')
camelia rakudo-moar 13ca30: OUTPUT«1 1 2, 1 2 1, 2 1 1␤»
perlawhirl well now that i think about it... eqv to none would find nothing :D
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perlawhirl hrm.. interesting moritz... taking the scenic route via stringification 14:07
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moritz m: say (1, 1, 2).permutations.unique.join(', ') # I don't think that works, because lists aren't value objects 14:08
camelia rakudo-moar 13ca30: OUTPUT«1 1 2, 1 2 1, 1 1 2, 1 2 1, 2 1 1, 2 1 1␤»
moritz m: say (1, 1, 2).permutations.map(~*).unique(&infix:<eqv>).join(', ')
camelia rakudo-moar 13ca30: OUTPUT«Cannot call unique(Seq: Sub+{<anon|48540128>}+{Precedence}); none of these signatures match:␤ ($: *%_)␤ ($: :&as!, :&with!, *%_)␤ ($: :&as!, *%_)␤ ($: :&with!, *%_)␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/Fok1_fjrCi line 1␤␤»
moritz m: say (1, 1, 2).permutations.map(~*).unique(as => ~*).join(', ')
camelia rakudo-moar 13ca30: OUTPUT«1 1 2, 1 2 1, 2 1 1␤»
moritz that way you get lists out of it
perlawhirl yep... cool 14:09
moritz m: say (1, 1, 2).permutations.map(~*).unique(with => &infix:<eqv>).join(', ')
camelia rakudo-moar 13ca30: OUTPUT«1 1 2, 1 2 1, 2 1 1␤»
nadim Greetings from Africa, at least one person is doinf P6 here ;)
moritz no stringification involved here
perlawhirl GOT IT!
psch m: say (1,1,2).permutations.unique(with => &infix:<eqv>)
camelia rakudo-moar 13ca30: OUTPUT«((1 1 2) (1 2 1) (2 1 1))␤»
moritz \o Africa, nadim
perlawhirl m: my @n = 1,1,2; say @n.permutations.unique(as => ~*)
camelia rakudo-moar 13ca30: OUTPUT«((1 1 2) (1 2 1) (2 1 1))␤»
14:09 Timbus joined
nadim moritz: P& with a view imgur.com/1ktwKcN 14:12
how wouldi , in the most perlish way, set all the elements of a hash to a certain value?
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psch m: my %h = a => 1, b => 2; %h{%h.keys} = "foo" xx *; say %h.perl # might be something neater around somewhere 14:14
camelia rakudo-moar 13ca30: OUTPUT«{:a("foo"), :b("foo")}␤»
moritz m: my %h = a => 1, b =>2 ; $_ = 0 for %h.values; say %h
camelia rakudo-moar 13ca30: OUTPUT«a => 0, b => 0␤»
psch m: my %h = a => 1, b => 2; %h{*} = "foo"; say %h.perl # this error i find weird
camelia rakudo-moar 13ca30: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to *, as the order of keys is non-deterministic␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/2Pf6AKkZS3 line 1␤␤»
psch or is .keys deterministic?
moritz m: my %h = a => 1, b =>2 ; %h{}:values = 0 xx * 14:15
camelia rakudo-moar 13ca30: OUTPUT«Unexpected named parameter 'values' passed␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/nUBeaxWnA8 line 1␤␤»
nadim psch: I like the * way
moritz m: my %h = a => 1, b =>2 ; %h{}:v = 0 xx *; say %h
camelia rakudo-moar 13ca30: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
nadim hehe!
14:16 Skarsnik joined
Skarsnik Hello 14:16
nadim Skarsnik: hi 14:17
perlawhirl m: my %h = one => 1, two => 2; %h.keys.map:{ %h{$_} = 5 }; say %h;
camelia rakudo-moar 13ca30: OUTPUT«one => 5, two => 5␤»
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dalek osystem: 58e7aa8 | okaoka++ | META.list:
Change username
 14:18
osystem: e8a0064 | moritz++ | META.list:
Merge pull request #172 from titsuki/change-username

Change username
perlawhirl nadim: one more way... : %h{$_} = 0 for %h.keys 14:19
nadim la compact one too! 14:20
perlawhirl it's quite perlish cos it's how youd do it in perl5, more or less
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perlawhirl p5 would be : $h{$_} = 0 for keys %h 14:21
psch m: my %h = one => 1, two => 2; %h = %h.keys >>=>>> 5; say %h.perl
camelia rakudo-moar 13ca30: OUTPUT«{:one(5), :two(5)}␤»
perlawhirl hot damn... what is that operator 14:22
psch the long fish operator vOv
lizmat what's wrong with $_ = 0 for %h.values ?
psch well, no, it's a hypered fat arrow
moritz visually prefers Z=> 14:23
psch moritz: but Z doesn't repeat the shorter side
m: my %h = one => 1, two => 2; %h = %h.keys Z=> 5; say %h.perl
camelia rakudo-moar 13ca30: OUTPUT«{:two(5)}␤»
nadim Z not repeating the short side is a pity I miss it i other places too 14:24
perlawhirl lizmat: it works! i presumed $_ would be a copy of the value and wouldn't modify the value
moritz psch: erm right, X=> then
lizmat $_ is defined to be bound to the values returned by .values, on purpose, so you *can* change them that way
perlawhirl yeah i dunno why i thought that. it works in p5 too 14:25
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[Coke] moritz++ #devops 14:27
nadim The one thingthat is a tad fuzzy with a for loop is that you can't have an if /unless after without putting the whole thing between parenthesis
azawawi FROGGS: something was changed in HTTP::UserAgent since it was working before (evidence: travis-ci.org/azawawi/perl6-seleni...s/88746537 :) ) 14:28
FROGGS: lowercase http headers most probably 14:29
perlawhirl m: my %h = one => 1, two => 2; %h.values X= 0; say %h;
camelia rakudo-moar 13ca30: OUTPUT«one => 0, two => 0␤»
psch oh neat!
perlawhirl that would be the most perl6ish way, id think
psch that was kind of what i was looking for, perlawhirl++
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lizmat m: my %h = a => 42, b => 666; %h X= 0; dd %h # too bad this doesn't work 14:31
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«Cannot modify an immutable Pair␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/rjuuKldzNb line 1␤␤»
perlawhirl yeah, moritz pointed me in the right direction. X=> is if you wanted a new Pair... ie my %zeroed = %h.keys X=> 0; %h is unchanged
lizmat I wonder if the Pair creation of Hash.pairs should bind to the container in the hash 14:32
moritz maybe
azawawi .tell RabidGravy HTTP::UserAgent seems to be forcing lower-case HTTP header names. Any chance one can override that behavior?
yoleaux azawawi: I'll pass your message to RabidGravy.
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nadim perlawhirl: pretty perlish indeed 14:34
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FROGGS $ perl6 -MHTTP::UserAgent -e 'say HTTP::Message.new( Foo => 42 ).Str' 14:38
Foo: 42
azawawi: do you mean that it outputs "foo: 42" fo you?
for* 14:39
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nine moritz: seeing your devops talk was a bit weird for me because we come from the other direction: we used to work directly on our production system via ssh to the server and vim. We only later moved to developing on the developer's machine and using a VCS. 14:57
We still don't do releases and our production systems just run git master. 14:58
moritz nine: well, that's a form of releasing software
it just suffers from a few problems :-)
nine You could call every commit on master a release.
perlpilot nine: I'd wager that most shops made (are making) the transition as you did.
moritz nine: I'd say it's the right direction: you've moved to separate environments, and you have a process for getting your software to production 14:59
nine: later you can refine that process (automating gating based on tests, dependency resolution etc.) 15:00
nine Which is exactly what we're planning to do. Once we made the move to VMs, we'll test each change in a copy of the production environment before automatically pushing it to production. 15:01
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[Coke] wishes we had tests! 15:08
15:09 azawawi joined
azawawi hi 15:09
FROGGS: gist.github.com/azawawi/da5757238d792491b92b
timotimo FROGGS: how do you feel about making Inline::C work again? 15:10
Skarsnik Inline::C is weird, does it requiere a compilateur at run time? 15:11
[Coke] m: say 1/1.WHAT
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«Parameter 'de' requires an instance of type Int, but a type object was passed. Did you forget a .new?␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/nXuZTSJpWB line 1␤␤»
[Coke] m: say (1/1).WHAT
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«(Rat)␤»
jnthn I'd imagine so, though you might be able to arrange for it to happen at BEGIN time 15:12
azawawi FROGGS: github.com/azawawi/perl6-selenium-...e.pm6#L744 . Please notice the "Content-Length" to "content-length" translation. phantomjs 1.9.x which is normally installed on Debian checks for "Content-Length" case sensitiveness (an HTTP spec bug which was fixed in 2.x) 15:15
FROGGS azawawi: I bet this causes it: github.com/sergot/http-useragent/b...t.pm6#L128 15:18
azawawi FROGGS: yup
FROGGS PR and you are done :o)
wait, let me do it 15:19
azawawi FROGGS: confirmed, Content-Length on that line fixed the issue 15:22
FROGGS timotimo: I could attempt that... 15:24
timotimo consider it a low priority request from me
FROGGS Skarsnik: yes, I dont know of away to do that without a compilateur
azawawi forces installation of HTTP::UserAgent after FROGGS++ fix :)
FROGGS azawawi: in the H:UA commit I changed more stuff... hopefully travis agrees... 15:25
azawawi FROGGS: the funny thing i realized i may have a commit bit on H:UA :) 15:26
FROGGS that's a good thing to have :o)
azawawi phantomjs 1.9 compatibility restored... FROGGS++ :) 15:29
FROGGS \o/
15:30 kurahaupo joined
azawawi is now fixing ::Firefox issues 15:34
FROGGS: bit rot
nadim given: my $diff_glyphs = True; $diff_glyphs = %options<diff_glyphs> if %options<diff_glyphs>.defined ; Is there a cleaner way? 15:36
timotimo there's "with" to check .defined, but give you the original value
skids Actually in this case the default needs to be True. 15:37
moritz nine: my $diff_glyphs = %options<diff_glyphs> // True;
sorry, meant nadim
nadim timotimo: sounds good but how would that look like?
skids So // is your friend.
hoelzro but what if $diff_glyphs already has a value? 15:38
nadim then it is overridden but only if the option is set
hoelzro $diff_glyphs = %options<diff_glyphs> // $diff_glyphs; would cover that case
moritz hoelzro: nadim's example starts with my $diff_glyphs = True;
hoelzro ah, I didn't see that
skids $diff_glyphs = %options<diff_glyphs> // $diff_glyphs // True; # :) 15:39
or, precedence?
nadim anyway to remove the repetion? the default value is set many lines above at the start of the role declaration.
the repetition of $diff_glyphs 15:40
skids You can in the other direction but not this direction. 15:41
(using //=)
timotimo try R//=?
jnthn m: my %options = diff_glyphs => 1; my $diff_glyphs = True; #`(later...) $diff_glyphs [R//]= %options<diff_glyphs>; say $diff_glyphs
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«1␤»
nadim I was actually thinking of a =// ;)
jnthn m: my %options; my $diff_glyphs = True; #`(later...) $diff_glyphs [R//]= %options<diff_glyphs>; say $diff_glyphs
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«True␤»
jnthn Like that :) 15:42
R being the reverse-arguments meta-op
nadim Cool!
jnthn And we only reverse those of the //, not of the assignment
Cute :) 15:43
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kmwallio if I have an example in my examples directory, should I list that in me provides section in the META.info? 15:48
nadim no 15:49
timotimo maybe we ought to have some kind of infrastructure for example-viewing and storage 15:50
perlawhirl why isn't this working... 15:52
nadim timotimo: IMO, no. just clone and be done
perlawhirl m: say "this that".subst(/(this)/, "{$0.uc}")
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«Use of Nil in string context in block at /tmp/VTmkUTbpId line 1␤ that␤»
perlawhirl why is $0 Nil ?
i'm sure i've used captures in substitution before... is my brain fried
timotimo perlawhirl: that string is executed before the .subst is called 15:53
moritz m: say "this that".subst(/(this)/, {$0.uc})
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«THIS that␤»
moritz us a string in a closure, not a closure in a string :-) 15:54
perlawhirl ok, i'm hitting a weird issue where it's using a previous capture
right now if i run this in the repl: "this that".subst(/(this)/, {$0}) 15:55
it returns: i that
timotimo yeah, i know your problem
"repl"
perlawhirl hah, ok
figures
i know for next time :D
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nadim some Data::Dump::Tree news, for those interested, it soed data dumping, side by side data synchronization, and now only diff between two data structures 16:07
it's not perfect yet but going slowly towrds good enough imgur.com/cAYNEnk
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dalek pan style="color: #395be5">perl6-examples: 47d57e5 | (Shlomi Fish)++ | t/categories/euler.t:
Fix the tests. Hopefully.

The result was wrong before in the test and now it's fixed.		 16:08
azawawi FROGGS: S:W:Firefox is now fixed. Please test after reinstalling File::Zip. Enjoy :) 16:09
FROGGS: on Windows it will not work since firefox is not on $PATH 16:10
FROGGS well, one can adjust PATH :o) 16:16
timotimo nadim: you reap what you soe? :)
nadim timotimo: I will get my revenge one day ;) 16:17
azawawi FROGGS: i was discussing it with RabidGravy last year and something like Stuff::Finder or Program::Finder may be a useful module on windows
16:19 RabidGravy joined
azawawi RabidGravy: hi :) 16:19
RabidGravy rarr!
yoleaux 14:32Z <azawawi> RabidGravy: HTTP::UserAgent seems to be forcing lower-case HTTP header names. Any chance one can override that behavior?
Woodi nadim: I tried DDT yesterday and it failed tests on star 2016.01, known problem ?
nadim Woodi: can you please put it on github? all test pass here (tm). 16:20
Woodi: there will be another version next week with the synch and diff role in the distro. 16:22
Woodi nadim: you use R*201601 ? I tried it with panda, will try wit git clone
nadim I use perl6::version=2016.02-77-g855de77 16:23
Woodi: note that I thought I'd push the latest diff branch for you but it failed two tests ;) will fix it now 16:25
azawawi RabidGravy: FROGGS fixed it. so ignore it :)
RabidGravy azawawi, cool
Woodi nadim: prove failed test 41, line 25... 16:26
azawawi RabidGravy: like 1 min ago I said your name and then you joined #perl6. Coincidence? :)
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RabidGravy I am omniscient 16:27
nadim Woodi: what file? 16:28
DrForr RabidGravy eq Kibo.
azawawi RabidGravy: so what will happen to perl6 in 20 years from now? :) 16:29
timotimo it'll be a bit faster than it is today 16:30
RabidGravy :)
only a bit mind, wouldn't want people to get over-excited
timotimo i forsee that code using native arrays and regular mathy operators will be almost the same speed as C-generated code
azawawi :) 16:31
RabidGravy and I will have finally finished the couchdb nodule that I started almost a year ago 16:32
azawawi travis-ci.org/azawawi/perl6-seleni.../116942097 # MacOS X Travis CI builds seems to be buffered a lot
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Woodi nadim: t/41_type_callframe.t line 25 16:33
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nadim Woodi: fixed in the latest. I'llupdate everything soon. 16:34
dalek osystem: d3b4b81 | kmwallio++ | META.list:
Add Acme::Skynet to ecosystem

See github.com/kmwallio/Acme-Skynet		 16:41
osystem: ac2ebd8 | RabidGravy++ | META.list:
Merge pull request #173 from kmwallio/master

Add Acme::Skynet to ecosystem
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Woodi Acme::Skynet ? .oO( T2000: Miss Connor, I just do my job... Pleas let me in ) 16:47
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Azry How would you make a IO::Handle object out of a NativeCall function that returns a FILE* ? 17:27
perl6-newbie how do I do foreach(1..100){} in perl6? 17:28
geekosaur Azry, I don;t think you would unless you are *very* careful about how both the native functions and perl 6 use it 17:29
Azry ha i can answer that perl6-newbie: for ^100; :D 17:30
perl6-newbie thanks!
geekosaur Azry, the problem is that you're mixing buffering abstractions; libuv does one thing, libc stdio does something else, things can get *really confused* if each one is buffering separately 17:32
Azry well i'm not yet very comfortable in all this :S
geekosaur doing it right would probably require that IO::Handle have different backends for libc stdio, libuv (current perl6/moar), etc. 17:33
psch yeah, geekosaur says fits my knowledge there. as in, you'd probably have to also NC into libuv, stuff the FILE* in there and wrap what you get back into whatever exactly it is we do for IO::Handle!PIO
+what
that's assuming that libuv can take a FILE* and turn it into something it normally does things with
Azry i submitted a ticket on rt for this, i need to create a filehandle from a file descriptor, but i didn't want to wait :( 17:34
i guess that would be more of a ugly hack
psch definitely :)
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AlexDaniel perl6-newbie: well the answer is not entirely correct since ^100 is basically 0..99 17:36
psch Azry: maybe exposing what's been merged in libuv here github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/316 to NQP could work
AlexDaniel m: .say for ^10
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«0␤1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤6␤7␤8␤9␤»
AlexDaniel m: .say for 0..9
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«0␤1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤6␤7␤8␤9␤»
AlexDaniel m: .say for 1..10
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤6␤7␤8␤9␤10␤»
psch Azry: but that'd involve a significant bit of moar hacking as well 17:37
well, the fact that the issue only covers half your use-case aside :/
Azry i just started perl6, i'm definetely not ready for that yet =D
psch well, moar is C, NQP is minimal... ;)
the language that is, although the code base mostly looks scarier than it really is 17:38
well, except for the regex-y bits :)
perl6-newbie is perl6 really 10 times slower than perl5?
e.g.:
$ time /opt/rakudo-star-2016.01/bin/perl6 -e 'constant $FOO = 0; for 1..10_000_000 {}' # takes 2.5s on my macbook
geekosaur often, yes. getting it right came first, getting it fast is ongoing.
perl6-newbie $ time perl -e 'use constant FOO => 0; foreach (1..100_000_000){}' # takes 2.3s on my macbook 17:39
Woodi perl6-newbie: 10x slower is good news for many of us :)
perl6-newbie lol :-)
sjn easy-to-understand > correct > fast
psch perl6-newbie: of note is that a bare perl6 program is more equal to a perl5 with Moose
perl6-newbie: even if you don't do anything OO-y 17:40
of course that's a reason, not an excuse :)
perl6-newbie it'll be interesting to see if that was a clever strategy to concentrate on other things than speed 17:41
AlexDaniel perl6-newbie: it's a complex topic, actually
timotimo you do realize that 2016 is the year we're concentrating on speed, though? 17:42
psch heh
perl6-newbie yeah, I heard that... but I always assumed it was a bit slower or twice as slow... but not 10x slower!
AlexDaniel perl6-newbie: e.g. in perl6 you can easily crunch something in parallel and you will end up doing it faster in terms of clock time
perl6-newbie :-)
Woodi perl6-newbie: actually Perl6 OO is faster then Perl5 Moose since few years (or was?)
AlexDaniel perl6-newbie: and with much less code than you would have to write in perl5
timotimo perl6-newbie: you can try -> int $i {} instead of just {} and it'll become a bit faster 17:43
psch gist.github.com/peschwa/58a33d7636656a0c4c33
psch .oO( is perl5 really 3 times slower than perl6? )
timotimo crucially, we're apparently not inlining the block, which we totally should be able to
AlexDaniel perl6-newbie: but yeah, it is kinda true that it is slow-ish
timotimo psch: unfair comparison; you have to "use integer" in perl5 to get it to be fairer 17:44
psch oh, wait, 4 times
AlexDaniel psch: wait, what if you use ++ ?
psch timotimo: "use integer" brings perl5 to 3.8s
timotimo in any case, microbenchmarks are a poor approximation of behavior in general, because it really accentuates problem spots we have. like invocation being much more expensive than it should be 17:45
psch yeah, that's kind of my point here as well
AlexDaniel: ++ brings perl5 to 5s and stays the same for perl6 :)
timotimo since the for loop perl6-newbie wrote is equivalent to the code psch pasted after static optimization, but psch's code doesn't have an invocation for every round 'round the loop, we get a drastic difference there 17:46
ugexe why isnt IO::Socket an IO::Handle?
Woodi ugexe: IO::Socket is older ?
RabidGravy I wondered that before
ugexe rather: is there anything stopping us from making IO::Socket an IO::Handle
AlexDaniel psch: that's some really good nitpicking there :) 17:47
perl6-newbie my worry is that it may only be possible to optimize perl6 so far -- due to its architecture -- and e.g. the for loop I posted my never get close in speed to perl5 ?
AlexDaniel psch: I love it
ugexe it would allowa nice abstraction between sockets, files, and pipes then 17:48
AlexDaniel perl6-newbie: all things that I know so far are suggesting otherwise
timotimo perl6-newbie: the for loop you've pasted can (and probably will) become exactly as fast as what psch posted
AlexDaniel perl6-newbie: in fact, if you follow commit log you'll see 10x-like speedups for certain small things
geekosaur perl6-newbie, I think it's entirely possible, it just hasn't been done because people have been concentrating on getting stuff working and usable rather than on making it fast 17:49
the making it fast part, as I said, is ongoing. literally every day there's at least one commit making something significantly faster
perl6-newbie sounds good... I will make a note of those loops and try them again later in the year and see what has happened
RabidGravy actually as far as I'm concerned questions of speed are somewhat moot anyway, the only useful metric for me is "fast enough" and I find that it is fast enough for a lot of things
geekosaur there's a *lot* of those "somethings" to speed up, though
AlexDaniel by the way, are there any plans for JIT on ARM? 17:50
RabidGravy I'd love to see that
timotimo AlexDaniel: if you build it, we'll have it
same goes for RabidGravy
AlexDaniel or what is blocking it?
timotimo as far as i know, DynASM already supports ARM
psch lizmat++ does a lot of making things fast 17:51
timotimo perl6-newbie: 6guts.wordpress.com/2016/03/06/dig...lity-work/ - have you seen this? 17:52
mst perl6-newbie: if anything, the lack of typing in perl5 means that rakudo should be able to be faster
RabidGravy right now I'm trying to remember what the MIDI clock meter thing for linux is, then we can find out if it is fast enough to generate accurate MIDI clocks 17:53
timotimo mst: though that is really only true for native types at the moment, like "int", "num" and "str"
mst timotimo: notice my use of the future tense. it's almost as if grammar can mean things :D 17:54
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timotimo statically declared types don't mean as much to perl6 as to java or c++, though 17:55
and unless we get around to making our classes "closed", or otherwise preventing mix-ins and other shenanigans, i'd assume it won't help a lot for a long time
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timotimo we really get our big benefits from observing actual types at run-time, and reacting to that with specialization and jitting 17:56
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perl6-newbie thanks for the link on performance work... I wonder how quickly that work will filter into the production perl6? 18:03
timotimo the things he talked about are already in. they were already in when that post was posted 18:04
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timotimo so ... "quickly", i guess 18:04
perl6-newbie it's also interesting to note how slow perl5 when running the same 10M loop in 'OO mode' 18:05
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perl6-newbie hmm... if it's already 'in' and the 10M perl6 loop in the blog was running is 0.6s then why did my perl6 10M loop take 2.5s doing nothing in the loop body? 18:06
timotimo what is OO mode?
RabidGravy let's put it like this : 6 months ago I could just about stream audio at 128Kbps from a Perl 6 program, now I can *easily* stream at 320
*that's* fast enough
psch perl6-newbie: for and loop (and while) optimize differently well (currently) 18:07
perl6-newbie: note that my microbench used while and was 4 times faster than perl5
perl6-newbie he says in the blog post "Just to put that figure on the map a little, I wrote the following Perl 5 program, which I hope is reasonably equivalent" ...
RabidGravy also *now* and and rakudo 2016-01 are different
timotimo perl6-newbie: i'm willing to bet the loop body in jnthn's code was inlined, whereas your (the empty loop body) wasn't 18:08
perl6-newbie makes sense 18:09
timotimo and also, another difference is that the empty loop body you had got the loop variable passed to it
Azry since i can't work on my module util my ticket is resolved, is there a list somewhere of modules that people would like to have ?
timotimo whereas the loop (...) { } one doesn't have such a thing going on
psch Azry: 18:10
gr
github.com/perl6/perl6-most-wanted...modules.md
that
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Azry looks good thanks =) 18:11
timotimo perl6-newbie: did you see the difference between "for 1..10_000_000 {}" and "for 1..10_000_000 -> int $i {}"? the second one is quite noticably faster
RabidGravy I'd like http digest authentication
timotimo i find http indigestible 18:12
perl6-newbie it goes about 0.1 seconds faster for me with the -> int $i 18:13
RabidGravy because you haven't got a new enough rakudo
perl6-newbie hmmm... I literally just downloaded it this morning... so do you mean a non-production version? 18:14
timotimo probably
if i understand correctly, we're getting the 2016.03 compiler release this weekend, and then we'll see about a rakudo star release 18:15
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perl6-newbie $ time /opt/rakudo-star-2016.01/bin/perl6 -e 'constant $FOO = 0; loop (my $i = 1; $i <= 10_000_000; $i++) {}' # takes 1.4s on my macbook 18:18
$ time /opt/rakudo-star-2016.01/bin/perl6 -e 'constant $FOO = 0; loop (my $i = 1; $i <= 10_000_000; $i++) {say $_ if $FOO;}' # takes 4.2s on my macbook 18:20
so perl6 does not do constant folder like perl5 does?
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psch fwiw, the first one is 1.6s here, and with adding the type 'int' it's 0.26 18:21
the constant folding we do is turning e.g. 4 div 2 into 2 at compile time, afaik 18:22
Azry these examples are 7s and 14s on my freebsd
geekosaur perl5's optimization of that does not yet exist
psch not sure where in that example constant folding applies, anyway vOv
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timotimo it could throw out the "say $_" 18:23
thus making both programs equivalent in code
there's probably some $_-saving stuff in there, too
psch that's constant folding too? huh
timotimo well, in this case it'd be dead code elimination, really
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perl6-newbie $ time /opt/rakudo-star-2016.01/bin/perl6 -e 'constant $FOO = 0; loop (my int $i = 1; $i <= 10_000_000; $i++) {}' # takes 0.2s on my macbook 18:25
nice
$ time /opt/rakudo-star-2016.01/bin/perl6 -e 'constant $FOO = 0; loop (my int $i = 1; $i <= 10_000_000; $i++) {say $_ if $FOO;}' # takes 2.6s on my macbook
psch yeah, in the end this is all meaningless microbenchmarks... :) 18:26
perl6-newbie in perl5 then the say $_ if $FOO; statement would be optimized away because of constant folding... perl5 is one of the few languages to do that...
mst say $_ if FOO; would 18:27
perl6-newbie surely the 2.6s suggests that the say $_ if $FOO; is not being optimized away? 18:28
psch patches welcome :) 18:29
perl6-newbie but I guess it could be that the loop optimization is still so flaky that it did get optimized away but as a result the loop didn't get optimized?
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timotimo you can find out all of this with our introspective tools 18:30
you can for example compare the ast we generate statically with --target=ast and --target=optimize
pmurias mst: the non-native type checks are mostly a hindrance for performance, what should hopefully allow Perl 6 to be really fast in the future is that a lot more things are lexical then in Perl 5 and that the implemementation is not exposed by XS
timotimo --profile will not terribly likely be helpful here 18:31
but you can set the env var MVM_SPESH_LOG=foobar.txt to get low-level bytecode that is run, that'll give you quite an amount of information about what's going on
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perl6-newbie wow setting MVM_SPESH_LOG causes a fire hose of info :-) 18:37
but it's not intention revealing enough -- for me at least -- to discover if the say statement was infact optimized away :-( 18:38
timotimo yes, it really is a firehose 18:39
the thing is, that spesh optimizes a crapton of stuff in the compiler during startup :)
so you get to see all of that, too
you probably just want to look at the last 5% 18:40
or start from the bottom actually
anyway, gotta go!
perl6-newbie thanks ttfn
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timotimo god damn it, now i've got weird al's UHF stuck in my head 18:55
RabidGravy timotimo, I just remembered another lightweight sequencer for Linux - "non-sequencer" 18:56
but I still haven't found anything that will tell me if this midi clock I'm sending is anything near right 18:57
but it definitely is sending it
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timotimo so all you need to know is if the timing is all right? 19:00
send it out via an ethernet jack or midi plug and hook up an oscilloscope? 19:01
RabidGravy Oh I've got lots of options on the hardware front, I'd just plug it in the MPC1000 via MIDI and it would tell me straight away ;-) 19:04
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RabidGravy but that would entail remembering where I put all the midi cables 19:08
psch hah, i don't have any midi cables 19:09
but then also don't have any hw samplers or synths vOv
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RabidGravy yeah I have somewhat of a hardware addiction 19:10
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psch eh, if it fits somewhere in the room and is affordable, why not :) 19:12
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RabidGravy www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10...5c4c84c7be is a taste 19:15
it's a bit tidier than that at the moment 19:16
psch "Sorry, this content isn't available right now"
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RabidGravy weird 19:19
rabidgravy.com/stuff.jpg 19:21
psch well, i could maybe guess what half of those boxes do... :) 19:23
RabidGravy mostly things that mess sound up and a drum machine, two bass synths and a monomachine 19:27
rindolf Hi all. 19:32
rindolf wonders if he should rebuild rakudobrew to see if perl6/moar got faster recently. 19:33
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Hotkeys rindolf: i just rebuild all the time 19:49
AlexDaniel Hotkeys: in a hope that it gets faster after every rebuild? :) 19:52
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Hotkeys nah just cause 19:52
why not
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perlpilot rebuilds every so often too (once a week or so) 19:57
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RabidGravy Sunday usually and smoke test all my modules 19:58
has proved to be a reasonable canary 19:59
AlexDaniel m: {sum @^a.sort Z*[R,] @^b.sort}((1, 3, -5),(-2, 4, 1)).say
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«-25␤»
AlexDaniel Hotkeys: 3 bytes shorter or something 20:00
20:00 nadim left
AlexDaniel m: {(grep {.comb.sum==.².comb.sum},1..*)[$_]}(13).say 20:02
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«189␤»
AlexDaniel Hotkeys: another 3 bytes
psch ...those do the same? oO 20:03
AlexDaniel psch: no :D
psch that's reassuring :)
AlexDaniel I love this .² thing :) 20:04
psch yeah, it's neat 20:05
Hotkeys you can do it with any postfix I think
or am i wrong
probably wrong
psch m: 1.++.say
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«Cannot call postfix:<++>(Int); none of these signatures match:␤ (Mu:D $a is rw)␤ (Mu:U $a is rw)␤ (Int:D $a is rw)␤ (int $a is rw)␤ (Bool:U $a is rw)␤ (Bool:D $a is rw)␤ (Num:D $a is rw)␤ (Num:U $a is rw)␤ (num …»
cognominal that's $_ ** 2 ?
AlexDaniel yeah 20:06
psch cognominal: yeah, superscripts Just Work
m: say 2²²
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«4194304␤»
AlexDaniel m: say ²²² # fun, but don't rely on this
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«4194304␤»
cognominal ...and indices for arrays ?
Hotkeys no subscripts 20:07
psch that'd be subscripts, no?
i don't think we have that
AlexDaniel no subscripts yet :(
cognominal ok
Hotkeys subscripts are hard
AlexDaniel in fact, most people say that subscript should not work like array subscripts :(
Hotkeys I'd prefer having them for vars
AlexDaniel s
Hotkeys than having them for arrays
psch yeah, i'd rather have them allowed in ident too
AlexDaniel look ↑
if you are using numbers in the end of the variable name, perhaps consider using an array? 20:08
cognominal m: say 3 ³ ³ 20:09
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/PPhKeN_Qx9␤Confused␤at /tmp/PPhKeN_Qx9:1␤------> 3say 37⏏5 ³ ³␤ expecting any of:␤ infix␤ infix stopper␤ postfix␤ statement end␤ statement modifie…»
cognominal m: say 3³³
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«5559060566555523␤»
AlexDaniel m: say 3\ ³³
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«5559060566555523␤»
psch m: say 3\ .\ ³ 20:10
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«27␤»
psch m: say 2².²
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«16␤»
psch that's actually cool
dot as parens replacement there
AlexDaniel m: say 2²\ ² 20:11
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«16␤»
AlexDaniel oops
ah, it works
psch yeah, toss the space and it's the same amount of bytes
AlexDaniel m: say 2²\²
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«16␤»
AlexDaniel right
psch m: say 2² .\ 2 20:12
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/KAlUVEyrOD␤Unsupported use of . to concatenate strings; in Perl 6 please use ~␤at /tmp/KAlUVEyrOD:1␤------> 3say 2² .7⏏5\ 2␤»
psch hm
m: say 2 .\ 2
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/cHULsZMbJu␤Unsupported use of . to concatenate strings; in Perl 6 please use ~␤at /tmp/cHULsZMbJu:1␤------> 3say 2 .7⏏5\ 2␤»
psch m: 2 .say
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«2␤»
AlexDaniel m: say 2 \. 2
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/6LoPmTnFNH␤Confused␤at /tmp/6LoPmTnFNH:1␤------> 3say 27⏏5 \. 2␤ expecting any of:␤ infix␤ infix stopper␤ postfix␤ statement end␤ statement modi…»
psch that confuses me
Hotkeys m: say 2.\ 2
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/2Zj0RKMrMi␤Unsupported use of . to concatenate strings; in Perl 6 please use ~␤at /tmp/2Zj0RKMrMi:1␤------> 3say 2.7⏏5\ 2␤»
AlexDaniel m: say 2\ \. 2
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/LIN9xmTEqR␤Bogus postfix␤at /tmp/LIN9xmTEqR:1␤------> 3say 27⏏5\ \. 2␤ expecting any of:␤ infix␤ infix stopper␤ postfix␤ statement end␤ statemen…»
psch i mean, methodop can have spaces before
Hotkeys m: say 2\. 2
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/rlfMbGjOvZ␤Confused␤at /tmp/rlfMbGjOvZ:1␤------> 3say 2\.7⏏5 2␤ expecting any of:␤ dotty method or postfix␤»
psch except for literals?
m: "foo" .say
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«foo␤»
AlexDaniel psch: it is often half-broken
psch or just numerics..?
ah
AlexDaniel m: 42 . WHAT.say 20:13
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Method call must either supply a name or have a child node that evaluates to the name␤»
Hotkeys I was under the impression that if you wanted space like that you had to use a \
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Hotkeys regardless 20:13
AlexDaniel WHAT is special, I know, but that's just another way of breaking .
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AlexDaniel m: 42 . say 20:13
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«42␤»
AlexDaniel Hotkeys: there's infix .
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AlexDaniel m: {(e**(i*$^x)).im}(pi).sa 20:14
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«Method 'sa' not found for invocant of class 'Num'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/maQzPEYllf line 1␤␤»
AlexDaniel m: {(e**(i*$^x)).im}(pi).say
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«1.22464679914735e-16␤»
AlexDaniel m: {(e**(i*$_)).im}(pi).say
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«1.22464679914735e-16␤»
AlexDaniel Hotkeys: -1 byte :) 20:15
johnP Hello guys.. I'm a student looking into perl6, I wrote a simple script that read 10000 numbers from a text file, sort them and print them back to the screen. I noticed that the same thing done in perl 5 takes less than a second. in perl6 however it takes 29sec.
Hotkeys oh
AlexDaniel johnP: which perl 6 version?
johnP: or rather which rakudo version
Hotkeys idk why I used $^x there 20:16
timotimo johnP: yeah, sometimes perl 6 can be painfully slow, but it's very possible to speed things up by writing things with better selection of primitives
johnP This is Rakudo version 2016.02-180-g57df3dd built on MoarVM version 2016.02-33-g1e3d2ac
implementing Perl 6.c.
AlexDaniel johnP: and perhaps you could show us the code so that we can suggest some improvements :)
timotimo ah, well, at least your rakudo isn't out of date :)
johnP I'll put the code online and provide a link just one sec 20:17
timotimo thanks
if you want to do your own performance tuning, using "perl6 --profile yourscript.p6" is a good place to start to see if anything much sticks out
psch johnP: keep in mind that perl6 had about 4 months of "make it fast" (if that) while perl5 had upward of 10 years of "make it fast"
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timotimo i'd say we've had a few more months of that, but only few people working on that during these months 20:18
psch eh, arguable :)
AlexDaniel yeah, we should probably consider cloning jnthn and lizmat
psch i mean, yes, lizmat and jnthn did perf work before 6.c
but they also did some amount of semantic work after 6.c
timotimo doesn't make the list ;_; 20:19
psch in the end the mistake i made was probably supplying an actual number... :)
as in, "we had months, p5 had years" still rings true
timotimo yes
johnP hostcode.sourceforge.net/view/5106 20:20
psch timotimo: your perf work is mostly in mvm directly, isn't it? i admit i tend to overlook that...
AlexDaniel m: {e**(i*$_) .im}(pi).say
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«1.22464679914735e-16␤»
timotimo p6 performance still feels to me like there's a few tarpits you can accidentally dip your toe into, and suddenly you get 100x-10000x slower
AlexDaniel Hotkeys: ↑ -1 more byte
timotimo johnP: first thing that sticks out to me is you probably want to numify the numbers from the file once up front 20:21
then you don't have to use <=> in your sort
and using $^a <=> $^b is likely a few times slower than just { +$^a }
psch m: say "2" < "3"; say now - BEGIN now
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«True␤0.0106056␤»
psch m: say 2 < 3; say now - BEGIN now 20:22
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«True␤0.0111133␤»
psch snickers
timotimo lol, well done :)
watch out, those comparisons would potentially get compile-time evaluated
psch yeah, i don't expect anything significant from running that repeatedly 20:23
and i'd guess 5% isn't really something to write home about with camelia's host either
johnP timotimo your advice helped
psch especially considering there's network latency involved
timotimo cool. by how much? :)
johnP now it takes 3 sec
AlexDaniel that's not too bad :) 20:24
johnP so quite a lot
timotimo how big are those numbers usually?
there's 10k of them, right?
are they only integers? or would they pass as rational numbers perhaps?
AlexDaniel johnP: hm, could you provide the file itself too? So that I can play with it 20:25
timotimo it's probably also a whole lot faster to say @array.join("\n")
rather than to print each one in turn
johnP sure
Hotkeys I was thinking that
wasn't sure though
johnP this is the link for my perl5 similar script hostcode.sourceforge.net/view/5107
AlexDaniel I didn't know that sourceforge has it's own snippet thingy 20:26
maybe I should add it to camelia too… except that I don't really want to support sourceforge in any way now
RabidGravy they had to counter github somehow
Hotkeys I didn't know people still used sourceforge ;p
RabidGravy I don't think I can even remember my sourceforge login 20:27
johnP AlexDaniel hostcode.sourceforge.net/view/5108
AlexDaniel Hotkeys: they do, in fact they usually refuse to move elsewhere when you suggest that
timotimo why would we add sourceforge pasting, but not, for example, sprunge?
AlexDaniel timotimo: which sprunge?
timotimo the sprunge
AlexDaniel timotimo: camelia already supports github gists, bitbucket snippets and gitlab snipeets
timotimo oh, i didn't knw that 20:28
AlexDaniel oops, snippets
I can add sprunge too, if you think that it is commonly used
timotimo i like sprunge
psch well there's data to check for the most used pastebins in the clog...
timotimo good point
AlexDaniel psch: if you make a list then I'll implement all of them 20:29
RabidGravy I'd like github gist a lot more if the pasting was a lot easier
Hotkeys '(slurp $path~'\5108.txt').lines.sort.join("\n").say; say now - INIT now' gave me half a second
but that might just be hardware differences
timotimo Hotkeys: you forgot to intify 20:30
Hotkeys oh wait
yeah
johnP will try
timotimo that only works by accident because the numbers are same-length
oh, they are not, though
psch AlexDaniel: ...not sure i'm actually up to that :) considering there's checking all the urls involved...
hankache johnP print_array(sort_file(readfile())); can be replaced with sort_file(readfile())>>.say;
timotimo hankache: no, >> messes up your ordering 20:31
hankache timotimo hyper is still broken?
Hotkeys with the proper sorting it gave me about a second
but
timotimo hankache: no
hankache: it's by design. though the mess-up-order-intentionally code has been removed some months ago 20:32
Hotkeys looks ordered to me
timotimo do not rely on ordering of what hyperoperators do
hankache but hyper should preserve order
Hotkeys fair
no
johnP perl5 version is faster than python on my machine is: real0m0.028s
timotimo hankache: order, but not order of execution. which is what you get when you .say
Hotkeys hyper preserves the order eventually
timotimo i mean, when you >>.say
Hotkeys but not e- yeah
I also did (+«(slurp $path~'\5108.txt').lines).sort.join("\n").say for fun 20:33
which also did about a second
hankache timotimo ok
timotimo my profile shows 55% time spent in readfile, 29% in sort_file and 15% time spent in print_array 20:34
i'm not sure why, but 10% overall is spent inside a Bool method 20:35
lizmat which one?
timotimo line 914 20:36
that's probably Mu?
yeah, it looks like it's the proto method Bool
lizmat indeed 20:37
perhaps it would help to change the signature from (|) to () ?
johnP Hotkeys could u show me the snippet you used?
Hotkeys (slurp $path~'\5108.txt').lines.sort({+$^a}).join("\n").say 20:38
$path being the folder I had it in
timotimo right, we're not really expecting to pass any arguments at all there
i also see find_best_dispatchee is at it again ... inside method Numeric 20:39
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timotimo in hotkeys' snippet i also get find_best_dispatchee in the routine list ... 2nd place by exclusive time :| 20:41
and actually method Bool is creating a gigantic amount of CallCapture objects 20:42
psch ("1\n2\n3\n4").lines>>.&[+].sort.join("\n").say # explicit numifying instead of letting sort do it
probably won't do much for perf though 20:43
timotimo even though the garbage collection time is only about 10%, it'd probably be worth to make Bool not allocate so much
psch well, and neither for clarity
johnP with Hotkeys code I get 2 secs
psch although i suspect you could replace the method-call-prefix:<+> with .Int hah
timotimo psch: i don't expect >>. to give very good performance as opposed to .map(+*) for example
psch timotimo: oh, yeah, of course not
timotimo also, i expect using .Int is probably more direct than prefix:<+> or even infix:<+> 20:44
psch timotimo: i was just thinking about the closure to sort...
timotimo: in any case, if anything of that sort .map is probably the better call
psch doesn't often think in term of performance
mostly clarity, brevity or fanciness :)
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timotimo johnP: tell us again, how fast is perl5 for this task? 20:47
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RabidGravy I tend to think ahead too much when I am writing code so continuously refactoring for things that I haven't yet started implementing 20:47
then clarity 20:48
johnP on my machine with the code I posted for perl5 real0m0.027s
timotimo yikes, that's still quite a bit faster
RabidGravy and I only care about performance if it isn't fast enough to actually work
johnP considering my perl is not very efficient.. 20:49
timotimo i would have suggested trying to write the same task in nqp, but we don't expose p6sort to nqp at all
psch nqp-m: nqp::sort(1,2,3)
camelia nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«No registered operation handler for 'sort'␤ at gen/moar/stage2/QAST.nqp:1584 (/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/nqp/lib/QAST.moarvm:compile_op:64)␤ from gen/moar/stage2/QAST.nqp:5797 (/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/nqp/lib/QAST.moarvm:compile_node:2…»
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psch mhm, we don't have sort at that level do we? 20:49
timotimo that's what i just said :)
psch just write mvm bytecode manually..? :P
johnP do you think perl6 will be faster in the near future? 20:50
timotimo psch: why would you ever do that? :)
perlpilot johnP: I know it will be faster (just not at everything)
timotimo johnP: yeah, we're working on performance in 2016
we didn't do much performance work yet
psch timotimo: honestly, i think nobody would, ever. i'm pretty sure it's a terrible idea :)
johnP so are you guys the actual developers of perl6? 20:51
timotimo no, we've done so in the past for tests while we were building moarvm
well, i'm not part of that effort, i came in way late
but also, brrt wrote mvm bytecode through nqp code in the early stages of the jit, i think
psch johnP: i for one am somewhat of an occassional contributor. timotimo is quite a bit more involved, especially with the prefered underlying vm, which is moarvm 20:52
timotimo johnP: the barrier of entry to perl6 core development isn't very high, as a big portion of rakudo is written in perl6 and the rest is written in nqp, which is "not quite perl6"
perlpilot timotimo: But when you need a low level sort op .... ;)
AlexDaniel johnP: most people here do some kind of contributions :) 20:53
johnP I'm kinda flattered :-)
RabidGravy except me I just heckle from the sidelines
timotimo github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/...s.nqp#L284 - this is our implementation of p6sort. it's not that low level.
AlexDaniel well, maybe TimToady should say hi ;)
johnP thanks for the help anyway
perlpilot johnP: #p6dev is where the development discussion happens these days. We try to keep #perl6 for the users.
timotimo i think those for loops, the one at the beginning and the one at the end, really could be turned into a postfix-while without curly braces for a measurable benefit 20:54
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perlpilot I wonder how optimized p6sort becomes in real code 20:59
timotimo not at all. it's called rather than inlined
i think especially the invocation of "comparator" over and over can cost us a lot of potential performance when all we're doing is compare int objects, for example
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perlpilot yep 20:59
AlexDaniel Hotkeys: you did not apply suggested changes, didn't you? :)
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timotimo it's feasible to build another op that specializes on having only Int objects 21:00
well, we're doing more than one pass over the data anyway. we can do analysis in the first pass 21:01
if for example it turns out that every object in there is an Int, we can enter a different implementation that uses nqp::islt_I instead of a comparator
(though of course only if "the default" comparator is used, which has to be flagged to the op somehow)
in general, please consider p6sort and the sort methods and subs completely re-writable as far as i'm concerned 21:02
as long as the API stays the same
perlpilot: do you want to tackle that project? :)
psch hm
perlpilot My problem with hacking on P6 continues to be finding time. :( 21:03
psch wouldn't we also want a Str-specialized p6sort case? 21:04
as in, we have two steps: (1) default comparator? if yes (2) consistent typing which a low-level comparison op exists for? 21:05
nqp-m: say(nqp::islt("foo", "fop")) 21:06
camelia nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«No registered operation handler for 'islt'␤ at gen/moar/stage2/QAST.nqp:1584 (/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/nqp/lib/QAST.moarvm:compile_op:64)␤ from gen/moar/stage2/QAST.nqp:5797 (/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/nqp/lib/QAST.moarvm:compile_node:2…»
psch ...huh
there *is* islt in ops.markdown vOv
ah but i confused those >_>
so nevermind 21:07
'cause we do not actually have lowlevel relative str comparison
psch stops monologuing
johnP is parrot VM still in use for perl? or everything has been moved to moar? 21:08
perlpilot no, parrot isn't used 21:09
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mst johnP: parrot was a dead end half a decade ago 21:12
AlexDaniel is it even alive?
mst johnP: it has now been excised entirely
AlexDaniel :)
mst AlexDaniel: I think every so often somebody nails it back to the perch and cuts a release, but I can't say I've cared enough to check in quite some time
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lizmat the last release was pre-Christmas, afaik 21:13
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johnP ok I'm gonna go.. pleased to have met you guys. Thanks a lot for the help. 21:14
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perlpilot I think I still get email from the parrot mailing list, but the only thing I remember seeing lately is the monthly reminder 21:15
AlexDaniel
.oO( monthly reminder? “this project is still dead. Thanks for reading this email” )
lizmat rakudo.org is dead for me 21:16
argh
I meant: parrot.org
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mst lizmat: whereas in my case it's more s/for/to/ :D 21:17
perlpilot just checked ... the only parrot email I have since 2014 is from Parrot Raiser on the Perl6 mailing list. 21:18
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timotimo psch: excuse me, we don't have string comparison in our nqp ops? 21:23
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lizmat iseq_s 21:23
timotimo oh, we were talking about sorting and such 21:24
so we'd want gt, lt, and friends
psch timotimo: right, *relative* string comparison
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lizmat m: use nqp; my int $a = 1; my int $b = 2; dd nqp::cmp_i($a,$b) 21:25
camelia rakudo-moar 57df3d: OUTPUT«-1␤»
psch we have cmp_s
timotimo we also have isgt_s
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psch huh 21:25
i didn't see them in the list on top, my bad
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psch i guess in that case the approach could still work 21:25
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timotimo see also Str.pm 21:26
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psch yeah i was looking at ops.markdown but didn't see them 21:26
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psch i'll confidently blame it on the time and day :) 21:26
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vendethiel o/, #perl6 :) 21:32
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timotimo yo vendethiel, how are you today? 21:35
vendethiel tired. students going very crazy. how about you? 21:36
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timotimo also tired 21:36
i went to bed early-ish last night and thought that'd be an excellent thing to do to have a good day 21:37
instead of having a good day i woke up super early and couldn't get back to sleep ... and later i napped which didn't help at all, of course >_>
but now i'm going to be served dinner, and that'll make things better
vendethiel seems like a plan :-) 21:38
timotimo you're still leading that computer lab thingie?
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vendethiel not even. they're just overstepping their bounds as students... 21:39
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psch that sounds controversial :S 21:39
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psch google shows the daily mail reporting about demonstrations in reaction to a government announcement 21:41
there's probably better news sources... :)
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vendethiel psch: yeah, very much 21:46
psch i don't think i have enough information for... anything really. the article i found talks about something that the govt wants to sell as "reduces unemployment", but the student apparently disagree..? 21:48
s/ent/ents/
timotimo i don't understand what you're talking about, tbh
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timotimo BBIAB food 21:49
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psch timotimo: oh, well, vendethiel is french, an googling "student protest france" showed that mentioned article, which talks about some govt measure to decrease unemployment... 21:55
...at least i'm fairly sure vendethiel is, in fact, french :)
vendethiel no, that's very much outside of what i'm talking about.
psch ah, so something local
?
vendethiel it is correct that I'm french, which you deduce from my wonky english :P.
psch no, i actually remember you stating you're french a few months ago 21:56
vendethiel psch: something personal, not really keen about talking more -- sorry :)
psch oh, no worries, i don't even intent to pry. i was just curious
vendethiel it's okay. yeah, it's all kind of worrying what's happening about work laws and other things around here, though... 21:57
psch fwiw, the first association in my mind was to our (that is, the german) ALGII
which can be argued as well-intended, but mostly turns out as a means of hiding unemployment instead of finding jobs for people outside of employment 21:58
...but that's probably because i'm affect, so assume the appropriate amount of bias :)
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Skarsnik m: module A {our $foo is export := "42"}; import A; say $foo; 22:14
camelia rakudo-moar 24b4b2: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
Skarsnik Is that a bug?
psch Skarsnik: looks like binding interfers there 22:15
m: module A { our $foo is export = "42" }; import A; say $foo # as this works 22:16
camelia rakudo-moar 24b4b2: OUTPUT«42␤»
psch m: my $x is DEPRECATED := 42; $x
camelia rakudo-moar 24b4b2: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/hYq6HfSz5_␤Can't use unknown trait 'is DEPRECATED' in a variable declaration.␤at /tmp/hYq6HfSz5_:1␤------> 3my $x is DEPRECATED7⏏5 := 42; $x␤ expecting any of:␤ TypeObject␤ de…»
psch hrm
Skarsnik my real usage was export var that were binding to cglobal()
lizmat psch: I don't think DEPRECATED ever worked on variables 22:17
psch lizmat: yeah, i think so too
lizmat not sure how it could actually report on its usage, like it does on subs/methods
psch lizmat: no, yeah, i agree, it was a misguided attempt :) 22:18
m: class A { has $.x is rw := "foo" }; # this seems more related, fwiw
camelia rakudo-moar 24b4b2: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/V7TBiHsskV␤Cannot use := to initialize an attribute␤at /tmp/V7TBiHsskV:1␤------> 3class A { has $.x is rw := "foo" 7⏏5}; # this seems more related, fwiw␤»
psch ...i'm not sure though vOv
eh, disregard all of that, i'll poke more and speak up again if i discover anything actually useful :) 22:19
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saaki more simple version of this? (1...^10).grep: {$_ %% 2 or $_ %% 3} 22:50
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psch m: say (1...^10).grep: * %% (2|3) # not sure where if "more syntax" means "more simple" vOv 23:00
camelia rakudo-moar 24b4b2: OUTPUT«(2 3 4 6 8 9)␤»
psch saaki: ^^^
semantically there's a tiny difference, as well. infix:<|> is an any-Junction, whereas the or in the original short-circuits 23:02
RabidGravy or, y'know just "say <2 3 4 6 8 9>"
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RabidGravy same output so it's gotta be right yeah? 23:03
;-)
lucasb hello o/
m: class C { method defined { True } }; say ?C 23:04
camelia rakudo-moar 24b4b2: OUTPUT«False␤»
lucasb star: class C { method defined { True } }; say ?C
camelia star-m 2016.01: OUTPUT«True␤»
lucasb ^^ is this a valid change for 6.c?
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psch star-m: class C { method Bool { False } }; say ?C 23:05
camelia star-m 2016.01: OUTPUT«False␤»
psch star-m: class C { method Bool { True } }; say ?C
camelia star-m 2016.01: OUTPUT«True␤»
psch m: class C { method Bool { False } }; say ?C
camelia rakudo-moar 24b4b2: OUTPUT«False␤»
psch m: class C { method Bool { True } }; say ?C 23:06
camelia rakudo-moar 24b4b2: OUTPUT«True␤»
psch interesting
afaik, prefix:<?> never should ask .defined
'cause it's the prefix-op equivalent of .Bool
timotimo it asks Bool, which by default asks .defined 23:07
psch oh
so .Bool defaults to .defined, that makes sense
timotimo that's what lucasb observed, that the change in Mu's defined will make things perhaps change?
psch i mean, the results do
lizmat well, it wasn't picked up by the test suite 23:10
psch right, that was my other thought
timotimo right
lizmat but yes, if you add a .defined method to your class
timotimo you're playing with fire ;) 23:11
lizmat you probably should also make your own .Bool
lucasb yeah, I never defined any 'defined' or Bool methods for my classes. I just noticed this recent commit and decided to try some snippet. Because I remember Failure handled their Bool/defined methods differently. But I'm ok with it, if it makes things faster. :) 23:13
lizmat my commit didn't change that: you can still do whatever you want with your own .Bool and .defined 23:14
it's just that if you do define your own, you probably want to do both
lucasb ok, understood. thanks 23:15
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lucasb the specs briefly mentions the relationship between Bool and .defined for the Mu class, but I guess it can be updated. 23:24
S02:4660
synopsebot6 Link: design.perl6.org/S02.html#line_4660
lucasb anyway, I'm waiting for the release this weekend. thanks for your work, everybody! good night 23:26
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lizmat hmmm... that seals the fate of that commit, I guess :-( 23:27
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timotimo brr. i totes broke the profiler's routine view >_> 23:49
RabidGravy tut 23:52
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