»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz on 22 December 2015.
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dalek c: 4897e96 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/functions.pod6:
show my &somefix:<foo> = form
 01:03
sectbot/graphs_for_benchable: 669e5c7 | (Daniel Green)++ | / (2 files):
Initial attempt at adding graphing to benchable

This works, but requires cloning the gist onto the filesystem and doing git add, git commit, git push		 01:06
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dalek sectbot: 6fd5760 | (Daniel Green)++ | / (2 files):
Initial attempt at adding graphing to benchable
 03:02
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dalek sectbot: 498c685 | (Daniel Green)++ | benchable.pl:
No need for a unique filename when uploading a graph
 03:45
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vimal2012 I got the error "Cannot modify an immutable Str", when I ran this file paste.debian.net/plain/782191 How to correct this error? 04:13
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AlexDaniel m: my $string = "The \n quick \n brown \n fox \n jumps \n over \n the \n lazy \n dog \n"; for $string.lines { say S/ \s // } 04:15
camelia rakudo-moar 7976fe: OUTPUT«The␤quick ␤brown ␤fox ␤jumps ␤over ␤the ␤lazy ␤dog ␤»
AlexDaniel that's one way
vimal2012 Upper case S?
AlexDaniel yea. “The lower-case version (s///) substitutes in-place, while the upper-case version (S///) leaves the original alone and returns the resultant string.” (docs.perl6.org/language/operators#...%2F%2F%2F) 04:17
Frameless vimal2012: perl6.party/post/Perl-6-S---Substit...n-Operator
m: .say for "The \n quick \n brown \n fox \n jumps \n over \n the \n lazy \n dog \n".words
camelia rakudo-moar 7976fe: OUTPUT«The␤quick␤brown␤fox␤jumps␤over␤the␤lazy␤dog␤»
AlexDaniel yea, it depends on what you actually want 04:18
Frameless m: .say for "The \n quick \n brown \n fox \n jumps \n over \n the \n lazy \n dog \n".lines».trim
camelia rakudo-moar 7976fe: OUTPUT«The␤quick␤brown␤fox␤jumps␤over␤the␤lazy␤dog␤»
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TimToady drove from Köln to Milano yesterday, today we drive to Rome for the Curry On conference that starts tomorrow 07:38
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FROGGS_ TimToady: happy driving :o) 07:41
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ShimmerFairy suddenly wishes $*PROGRAM-NAME were really $*PROGRAM_NAME again, grumble grumble... 07:52
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FROGGS_ aye 07:54
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ShimmerFairy since my US keyboard has _ as the shifted version of -, as I've mentioned before (also, it looks better) :P 07:55
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FROGGS_ ShimmerFairy: that's what I said when the kebab-all-the-things patch landed 08:10
we should kebab methods names and variables only if the are lowercase 08:11
ShimmerFairy It's what I've said since I found out about it :) . I had to look in the documentation because I couldn't figure it out with $*EXECUTABLE_NAME, $?EXECUTABLE_NAME, $*PROGRAM_NAME, etc.
nine If that's the worst flaw in Perl 6's design, I can live with it. 08:12
FROGGS_ the reason for kebab after all was to save that keystroke (shift) for typing lowercase names
so introducing a keystroke for constants and other stuff is against that principle 08:13
moritz also I hope we'll eventually have IDEs that can autocomplete such names
ShimmerFairy I think a good compromise solution would be to have both variants, for people who like kebab-case, and for the normal people :)
FROGGS_ ahh, no
:o)
ShimmerFairy moritz: I don't use autocompletion in my programming anyway, so that's not a solution.
FROGGS_: solution #2: switch to common-lisp style case-insensitive names, with _ being the "capital letter" of - . :P 08:17
moritz ah well, you'll just have to remember then :-) 08:18
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ShimmerFairy moritz: I think my problem ultimately comes down to the fact that, to me, YELLING-KEBAB is both ugly and unintuitive. 08:20
stmuk shouldn't kebab case be localised to gyro (.de) and kebob (.ca) at least? :) 08:31
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AlexDaniel I think that it's weird to adapt a language to some random keyboard layout 08:37
isn't it supposed to be other way round?… In a perfect world, at least
anyway, you can always change your keyboard layout, if that bothers you a lot 08:38
and while you are at it, throw in some unicode characters
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marcel_ m: Buf.new(10 +& 0xFF) 09:02
camelia ( no output )
marcel_ m: say Buf.new(10 +& 0xFF)
camelia rakudo-moar 7976fe: OUTPUT«Buf:0x<0a>␤»
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marcel_ m: my int $i = 10; say Buf.new($i +& 0xFF) 09:03
camelia rakudo-moar 7976fe: OUTPUT«Type check failed in initializing element #0 to Buf; expected uint8 but got Int (10)␤ in any at gen/moar/m-Metamodel.nqp line 1736␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤ in any at gen/moar/m-Metamodel.nqp line 3055␤ in any…»
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marcel_ m: my int $i = 10; ($i +& 0xFF).WHAT.say 09:04
camelia rakudo-moar 7976fe: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
marcel_ so whats the problem, anyone?
masak m: say Int ~~ uint8 09:05
camelia rakudo-moar 7976fe: OUTPUT«Cannot unbox a type object␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
marcel_ It is introduced in the latest few rakudo versions, before it was ok 09:06
nine bisectable: my int $i = 10; say Buf.new($i +& 0xFF) 09:20
bisectable nine: No build for 'bad' revision
nine bisectable: help 09:21
bisectable nine: Like this: bisectable: good=2015.12 bad=HEAD exit 1 if (^∞).grep({ last })[5] // 0 == 4 # RT128181
nine bisectable: good=2015.12 bad=HEAD my int $i = 10; say Buf.new($i +& 0xFF)
bisectable nine: No build for 'bad' revision
nine bisectable: good=2015.12 bad=b06a99ebdd79393ce109cc214a6019ada5a0218a my int $i = 10; say Buf.new($i +& 0xFF)
bisectable nine: bisect log: gist.github.com/58e1921c8d812add97...d8fe30663b
nine: (2016-07-11) github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/de5d9e7
nine lizmat: ^^^ 09:22
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iH2O hi folks 09:28
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holyghost Hello 09:28
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iH2O hello holly 09:31
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holyghost I am going to install strawberry perl one o these days, on a core duo 2 09:44
I'd really like something as activestate or strawberry for perl6
It's just a no-jit rakudo now 09:45
2016.01 or something
I am more of an end-user as I don't fully grok the source code of perl6, it's difficult enough for some people, except maybe C++ folks 09:46
stmuk there is a 64 bit jited 2016.04 msi
holyghost I see 09:47
right I forgot about that
I only have mac mini as a iX processor system
an i5 09:48
iH2O srry to hear that
holyghost It's loaded with mac os x el capitan
stmuk the 64 bit 2016.07 dmg then
holyghost sure I am going to send in a program to nintendo, a metroid game then I'll have some money
maybe I'll buy an amiga x1000 or x5000 09:49
an amigo os 4.1 PPC machine
s/amigo/amiga
They went more or less the apple way with their processors
stmuk an i5 is 64 bit 09:50
holyghost I know
stmuk I don't understand your problem then 09:51
holyghost well strawberry and activestate is win32
e.g. they have COM bindings
stmuk you are using Windows?
which OS? 09:52
holyghost the interface of an instance in an array
7
stmuk on what processor
holyghost core duo 2
stmuk well that runs Win 7 64 bit OK then
holyghost I forgot if you can load a 64bit on an amd64 arch
I though not 09:53
stmuk is whether your OS is 32 bit or 64 bit
holyghost s/though/thought
It's 32 bit
stmuk I think you can still download the 64 bit for free until the end of the month 09:54
for Win 10 I mean
holyghost ok good point
stmuk you could also probably build 32 bit rakudo OK with the gcc in strawberry perl 09:55
but there would be no jit and some of the NativeCall modules might not work 09:56
holyghost To download win 10, do I just click the microsoft.com link in google ?
stmuk I forget but there was a link on the MS site for the ISO 09:58
holyghost start a download
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holyghost ok I hope that works out 10:04
thanks
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stmuk np 10:05
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holyghost If you install win 7 from a 6 year old DVD-R, it installs 32 bit right ? 10:16
I don't know much of windows, there's no 'uname -a' for example
timotimo you should be able to right-click on "my computer" on the desktop to figur eout if it's 32bit or 64bit 10:17
holyghost ok
El_Che if I remember correctly, there where 64-bit win7 iso's also 6 year ago 10:18
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timotimo who is hack user emeric? 10:19
El_Che on my laptop (I am a Linux user) I have a w32 virtual box vm, and a 64 win7 parition for games (I boot that once a year for steam sales :) )
timotimo they have a screen -r irc that's consuming a crapton of cpu time
one is already up to 106 hours, the other is at 107 hours 10:20
i'm pretty sure it isn't supposed to be like that?
psch the 50% cpu for each is the more interesting bit i think
well, unless the 106h is cpu time too, maybe? 10:21
timotimo i was just wondering what might be causing the noticable amount of cpu usage on collect 10:22
for one week, the usage has been pretty much constant
one part is of course your development, but i don't think you're developing for actually 24 hours a day without pause :) 10:23
i kind of wish i could ask collectd for graphs 2x as wide for the same amount of time
i mean collectd-web
psch nah, i kinda like sleep occasionally :)
timotimo grafana is so much nicer user-interface wise, i think
w says emeric has been idle for 7 days now 10:24
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timotimo i can just kill the weechat process and see who leaves %) 10:25
timotimo read too many BOFH stories
jeek /kill 'em all, root'll sort 'em out
timotimo %) 10:26
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nine timotimo: you can actually. Open the image and add &width=2000 to the URL 10:30
timotimo well, it'd be nice if the web interface'd allow me to do something like that for all graphs, and keep that setting 10:31
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nine There's also a GraphWidth setting in the config file 10:32
timotimo oh? neat.
but that's not per-user, right? 10:33
nine no, it isn't
timotimo i don't want to make it unusable for the other users
holyghost Is there going to be 32 bit support for perl6 in the future ? 10:42
timotimo uh oh, what's it now. ssh hack.p6c.org is taking a long time
it hasn't crashed again, has it? >:(
psch uptime is <2 10:43
well, load :)
timotimo nope, it's fine
it just took a long time for some random reason 10:44
stracing the screen session emeric has tells me there's something rather wrong going on 10:46
it seems to be stuck in a while loop trying to attach or something
i killed that one that was spinning its wheels, that seems to have helped 10:47
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nine holyghost: rakudo should already run on 32 bit systems? 11:21
lizmat nine: looks like:
# nqp::setelems(to, $j + $elems); # presize for efficiency
fixes the problem ??!!
oops, no, my bad 11:22
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holyghost nine : no-jit and 2016.01 11:44
nine : I'll try the strawberry perl to install a later version tomorrow
I just got back from the pub 11:46
I drank a good coffee
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Zoffix holyghost, Strawberry Perl is a sister language, not Perl 6. You should build Rakudo from sauce. Latest version is only a day old: rakudo.org/downloads/rakudo/ 13:38
Though I don't think there's JIT on 32-bit versions
stmuk you could also probably build 32 bit rakudo OK with the gcc in strawberry perl 13:39
holyghost ok 13:40
I'll give it a go tomorrow 13:41
I'm taking the day off
I never used strawberry perl, I only know some activestate
mst they're both perl5 13:42
holyghost The shell is not a problem though
mst strawberry's the (more recent) community one, activestate is a commercial one
they're the same language. perl6 is not.
holyghost ah I didn't know that
that I know
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holyghost I need the perl5 for building perl6 I thought 13:43
I won't meddle in perl5 anymore though, the language is really the swiss army knife but maybe the OOP is lacking, though I try to use new languages except for C/C++ 13:44
stmuk you can build rakudo with strawberry perl and git on windows
Zoffix holyghost, yeah, and strawberry also has C compiler and make tool that you'll need. So do install it. I was just clarifying that you won't get Perl 6 by just installing Strawberry alone
holyghost ok I see
mst holyghost: perl5's OOP is better than python or ruby or javascript
Zoffix holyghost, have you experimented with Moose in Perl 5? That's the Perl 5's OO
stmuk and windows git
mst holyghost: that's a lot of why I use it so much 13:45
holyghost: ruby is much prettier but ruby's OO is epically terrible in comparison
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holyghost I am not too good at it, but roles are actor-language things ? 13:46
It's not the C++11 or something but we need to define a whole OOP system in scheme macros for school 13:47
mst holyghost: perl5 and perl6 are the only languages with a decent 'has' and support for roles (traits)
holyghost s/need/needed
mst though traits come from smalltalk land
'has' and before/after/around are more CLOSish
holyghost I am on the basic level of such things
timotimo role isn't actor-related
mst no, but actors and traits came from, I think, similar groups of researches 13:48
because smalltalk ;)
holyghost st, I wrote a CGI script in GNU st once
timotimo probably, yeah
GNUstep?
holyghost GNU smalltalk
timotimo ah 13:49
holyghost it has a command line #!
hasbang
hashbang I mean
Then I learned some squeak, pharo and seaside smalltalk 13:50
It was based on the book ST-80 by adele 13:51
goldberg
mst ok, so, if you learn traits from smalltalk 13:52
those apply to perl6 and to M* OO in perl5
holyghost I misparsed Moose
I thought it was the MUD perl5 system 13:53
MOO, it is called I think
perl5 OO was full of references and such in a program I wrote 13:54
In the days of perlyroids 13:55
about 13 years ago
perlyroids was a perl GUI/adobe module based (only for IE) game written in perl5, you could run it in your browser such as hotjava in those days 13:56
It's long gone though
I had a friend back at worldforge.org, bryce who was a perl wizard, he brought me to perl5 13:57
I adapted OO of perl5 then 13:58
It was too difficult for me to fully understand
@ISA for example has arcane features for example
like the rest of perl5 :-)
Anyway, I hope I can compile the thing tomorrow 13:59
I am working on a game for perl6, I'll post it to perlmonks.org
SDL2::Raw based 14:00
I only need to make an xpm parser to not swap buffers
e.g. png buffer to SDL2 texture
SDL2 is slow in windows though, the linux version is faster, I want to make it portable 14:01
SDL2::Raw I mean
timotimo why is the linux version faster?
that makes no sense to me
holyghost I have no idea
mst holyghost: ah, you got taught the obsolete 2000-era perl5 OO 14:02
holyghost: p3rl.org/Moose is what you'd use these days
holyghost: example: git.shadowcat.co.uk/gitweb/gitweb.c...be;hb=HEAD 14:03
Juerd Honestly, I don't even consider Moose because my code needs to run fast. 14:04
holyghost Moose looks good, it's like our OOP scheme classes
stmuk I've used SDL2::Raw on Mac and Linux and noticed no difference in speed 14:05
nine Juerd: but Moose is reasonably fast? It just comes with a huge startup penalty.
Juerd nine: Compared to Perl 6 it's fast :P
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holyghost Is the syntax of the perl6 OO system finished or may it be extended without meta-thingy ? 14:08
mst Juerd: I'm sorry? please explain how Moose is slower than the equivalent raw perl5 OO
holyghost metasyntactic evauluation I mean
mst holyghost: roughly, Moose was a port to perl5 of the original perl6 metamodel, and the current perl6 metamodel is a port back to perl6 of Moose ;)
holyghost *lol* 14:09
mst note that Moose does have significant startup overhead, which is why for fast starting scripts I wrote Moo
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Juerd mst: It was when I benchmarked it (2 years ago), mostly when it came to accessors. 14:09
If you say I did something wrong because it's easily as fast as classical Perl 5 OO, I'll take your word for it. 14:10
mst Juerd: the accessors are normally as fast as they would be if hand-written
nine Juerd: with or without __PACKAGE__->meta->make_immutable?
mst now, admittedly, perl5 sub call overhead means that's not *amazingly* fast anyway 14:11
nine: irrelevant
Juerd nine: Without
mst oh, Moose without ->make_immutable is "please make my program really slow"
however the accessors are the one thing I *wouldn't* expect to be affected by that
but if you didn't even get as far as ->make_immutable, you definitely didn't learn enough Moose to produce valid benchmarks, I'm afraid
timotimo if you have to reach a double-underscored allcaps thing in order to make your program behave sensibly, that sounds bad :P 14:12
mst timotimo: __PACKAGE__ is standard perl5 thing, blame larry for the name :P
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Juerd mst: If that's an important thing, I'm confused that it didn't make it to perldoc Moose :) 14:13
nine Juerd: it's in Moose::Manual and explained in Moose::Manual::BestPractices
Juerd timotimo: metacpan.org/pod/CLASS :) 14:14
mst Juerd: perldoc Moose has a 'new to Moose' section which says you must start with Moose::Manual
Juerd: which shows it in the examples
Juerd I see 14:15
mst Juerd: but, yeah, a Moose accessor will be basically the same speed as a hand written one, and if it isn't, either you did something silly that pessimised it, or there's a bug
either way, you should've come to #moose on irc.perl.org and asked
rather than just spreading FUD about perl :(
timotimo pff, having to put a million use statements at the beginning of every class :P
mst timotimo: p3rl.org/Import::Into solves that
nine timotimo: I think that's why Perl 6 was started ;)
Juerd mst: I've been on IRC too long to *ever* join a channel just to complain about something.
mst Juerd: so instead you've spent two years telling people to avoid one of the best parts of perl5 because it's 'slow'. I don't consider that a net improvement :P 14:16
Juerd mst: Hold your assumptions please. I believe this is the first time I ever said anything about this outside the project group.
I'm not really involved in Perl that much anymore. Haven't been to a YAPC or national workshop in years, etc. 14:17
So no, I have not been spreading FUD. If I had, you'd have noticed that :)
timotimo mst: pff, having a million modules to do exactly what you need!
Juerd mst: About irc.perl.org: my IRC box is ipv6 only. 14:19
mst Juerd: I'd still rather have fixed your mistake two years ago
ah, hrm, I'm not sure which of the nodes currently do ipv6
Juerd I used to be on irc.perl.org. Out of a dozen networks it's the only one I had to ditch when I moved my client to an ipv6 only box... :)
mst it was more of them, but then the upstream v6 transport for some of them started being flaky 14:20
Juerd Although I used to be in #amsterdam.pm only
mst and thereby were causing more harm than good
Juerd: well, if you ever write perl5 again, come onto #perl on this network and we can help you do OO competently :) 14:21
timotimo oh no, not the mst-ruled channel with all of mst's goons!
Juerd mst: I'm perfectly fine with my competence regarding classic Perl OO.
timotimo on an mst-controlled network!
mst Juerd: yeah, but that's way too much typing and opportunity to typo things :)
Juerd Too much typing? Nah.
mst I mean, the first thing that comes to my mind is - if you didn't like 'has', why are you even in here? surely you'd be happier in #banging-rocks-together ? :D 14:22
Juerd I like "has $.foo is rw;"
mst seriously, I spent like four years with no Moose to figure out what the feature set for Moo needed to be and it was horrible
I don't wanna go back there ever again
Juerd I dislike "has 'foo' => ( is => 'rw' );" (if I recall the Moose syntax correctly)
mst hence why Moo fatpacks so I don't even have to treat it as a dep
has foo => (is => 'rw'); # is how I'd spell it, but yes 14:23
Juerd I'd actually spell that "has qw(foo is rw);"
mst personally, I mostly use shadow.cat/blog/matt-s-trout/do-you-copy/ 14:24
nine That's actually only 2 characters more than Perl 6
Juerd In any event I don't think I'll ever write the "modern" Perl 5, if that means Moose, unless I happen to get involved in a project that already does. 14:26
spider-mario weird,
running make install after building rakudo, I get:
Could not find CompUnit::Repository::Staging
Juerd I'd rather wait for Perl 6 to become production ready
spider-mario is that a known issue?
nine spider-mario: it isn't
spider-mario: what rakudo version? 14:27
spider-mario 2016.07
2016.06 was fine
I can try and bisect the issue
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mst Juerd: that's fair enough. I've been addicted to it for years now so 14:27
timotimo spider-mario: you probably need to run configure.pl again
nine spider-mario: do you have a lib/CompUnit::Repository::Staging?
spider-mario timotimo: I did, it’s a fresh build 14:28
mst Juerd: oh, minor note, Moo uses Class::XSAccessor if installed where possible
Juerd: so "has foo => (is => 'rw');" gets you an XS accessor and is actually rather more performant than writing your own
spider-mario nine: there is one in the source directory, but it seems to look for it in /usr/share/perl6
Juerd Oh, that's another thing. I write perl5 for tiny perls where even 'strict.pm' is not shipped by default.
mst aha
Juerd So I have to at least keep up with raw perl skills :D 14:29
nine spider-mario: can you tell me more about how exactly you install rakudo?
Juerd (Note that this is why in Net::MQTT::Simple, use strict is commented out!)
spider-mario I am actually packaging it
the build script runs Configure.pl --prefix=/usr --backends=moar
then make,
Juerd mst: Haven't tried Moo at all yet.
spider-mario and finally make install DESTDIR=(some packaging directory)
mst Juerd: lots of my code is designed to run given only a full basic perl5 install and a single script, hence Moo and App::FatPacker
but I don't generally have to go smaller than that 14:30
Moo is basically the Moose surface syntax with no metaprotocol
Juerd Sounds perfectly usable
mst but it fakes having been a Moose class all along if you point Moose at it
dalek c: d9a902c | Altai-man++ | doc/Language/operators.pod6:
Make hyper operators searchable
mst which means you can port thing Moose -> Moo and things subclassing it using Moose don't even notice
I was kinda proud of making that work ;)
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spider-mario okay, bisect in progress 14:37
nine spider-mario: no need to
spider-mario ah 14:38
mst Juerd: anyway, sorry for my slightly exothermic response, but I've been hearing 'moose is slow' for a lot of years and it's almost always (1) startup time (2) forgot make_immutable (3) did something that would've been slow if you'd done it by hand but hadn't thought about it
Juerd: and there was lots of actual FUD for quite a while, so it makes me twitch
nine spider-mario: trying to reproduce it here as I actually thought I had fixed this 14:39
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nine spider-mario: ok, I see it here 14:41
spider-mario cool
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nine This is most frustrating :( I've already had a fix for the Staging issue. But when I cleaned up my changes and put them into distinct commits it looked like I don't actually need this particular change, so I removed it. 14:55
I've got no idea why it did not explode in my tests as I did exactly the same as the failing test now.
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nine spider-mario: please try again with this patch: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d1...232ee64341 15:00
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spider-mario the patch applies cleanly but it still doesn’t seem to work 15:03
wait 15:04
not sure I applied it correctly
let me try again
(sorry)
holyghost is going to prepare himself a noodles-provencale (own mix) 15:05
spider-mario cool, it worked 15:07
thanks, nine :)
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ugexe m: sub foo($message, Str :@bar) { say $message }; foo("xxx") # what is the rational for performing a type check on an optional parameter that was not passed? 15:53
camelia rakudo-moar d1604b: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding @bar; expected Positional[Str] but got Array ($[])␤ in sub foo at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
gfldex m: sub foo($message, Str @bar?) { say $message }; foo("xxx") 15:56
camelia rakudo-moar d1604b: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding @bar; expected Positional[Str] but got Array ($[])␤ in sub foo at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
gfldex ugexe: that's a bug 15:57
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ugexe m: my Array[Empty] @a; 15:57
camelia rakudo-moar d1604b: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤An exception occurred while parameterizing Array␤at <tmp>:1␤Exception details:␤ 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling ␤ Parameter 't' requires a type object of type Slip, but an object instance …»
ugexe or just `say Array[Empty]` 15:58
gfldex: do you know if its a known bug? 15:59
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moritz Empty is an instance, not a type 16:02
so the error message is correct, IMHO 16:03
m: say Empty.^name
camelia rakudo-moar d1604b: OUTPUT«Slip␤»
gfldex ugexe: i would have to query RT 16:06
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gfldex löliblöggedagain gfldex.wordpress.com/2016/07/17/di...g-subsets/ 16:46
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stmuk pl6anet.org/drop/rakudo-star-2016.07-RC0.tar.gz 17:02
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ugexe hmm why doesnt bisectable work with private messages? 17:27
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ugexe bisect: gist.github.com/ugexe/7ce08d3ad4cf...7ba9713471 17:28
bisectable ugexe: It looks like a URL, but mime type is 'text/html; charset=utf-8' while I was expecting 'text/plain; charset=utf-8'. I can only understand raw links, sorry.
ugexe bisect: gist.githubusercontent.com/ugexe/7...tfile1.txt 17:29
bisectable ugexe: Successfully fetched the code from the provided URL.
ugexe: bisect log: gist.github.com/e0a28162b19f601616...76f24dd027
ugexe: (2016-07-04) github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5581b24
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Ben_Goldberg m: :{ 0 => 42, "0" => 43 }{0}.say; 17:49
camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«42␤»
Ben_Goldberg m: :{ 0 => 42, "0" => 43 }{"0"}.say;
camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«43␤»
Ben_Goldberg m: :{ 0 => 42, "0" => 43 }{0, "0"}.say;
camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«(42 43)␤»
Ben_Goldberg m: { 0 => 42, "0" => 43 }{0, "0"}.say; 17:50
camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«(43 43)␤»
Ben_Goldberg m: for { 1 => 42, 2 => 43 } -> $_ { .say } 17:51
camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«1 => 42␤2 => 43␤»
gfldex m: :{ 0 => 42, "0" => 43 }.^name.say
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camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«Hash[Mu,Any]␤» 17:51
gfldex m: { 0 => 42, "0" => 43 }.^name.say
camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«Hash␤»
gfldex what exactly is :{} ? 17:55
FROGGS_ an object hash 17:56
where the keys can be other things than only Str's
gfldex ENOINDEX 17:57
dalek c: eea8b55 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Hash.pod6:
index object hash and :{}
 17:59
Ben_Goldberg m: for { 1 => 42, 2 => 43 } -> [.key, .value] { .say } 18:01
camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Expression needs parens to avoid gobbling block␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3for { 1 => 42, 2 => 43 }7⏏5 -> [.key, .value] { .say }␤Missing block (apparently claimed by expression)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3for { 1 => 42, 2 => 43 } …»
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parabolize gfldex: its documented 2 headings above that as well: docs.perl6.org/type/Hash#Non-string_keys 18:07
gfldex parabolize: we don't deal well with duplicated index entries. So it's better to index at where it is explained in detail. 18:08
or better html does not deal well with duplicated anchors
a proper typesetting system would check if the anchors are on the same physical page and only generate one index entry 18:09
Ben_Goldberg m: my %h = 1 => 42, 2 => 43; for %h -> [.key, .value] { .say } 18:14
camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Missing block␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3my %h = 1 => 42, 2 => 43; for %h -> [7⏏5.key, .value] { .say }␤ expecting any of:␤ formal parameter␤»
Ben_Goldberg m: my %h = 1 => 42, 2 => 43; for %h { .say } 18:15
camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«1 => 42␤2 => 43␤»
Ben_Goldberg m: my %h = 1 => 42, 2 => 43; for %h -> (:key($foo), :value($bar)) { say "$foo ⇒ $bar" } 18:19
camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«1 ⇒ 42␤2 ⇒ 43␤»
gfldex m: my %h = 1 => 42, 2 => 43; for %h.kv -> $foo, $bar { say "$foo ⇒ $bar" } 18:20
camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«1 ⇒ 42␤2 ⇒ 43␤»
gfldex hash deconstruction is very useful in routine calls tho 18:21
Ben_Goldberg AFAICS, Destructuring parameters are solely and exclusively documented in docs.perl6.org/type/Signature#Dest...Parameters ... there ought to be more links to this and examples of it. 18:23
gfldex there are plenty of links to /type/Signature but I do agree that many readers wont follow them. 18:24
$ grep '/type/Signature' html/links.txt | uniq | wc -l 18:26
39
Ben_Goldberg I think at least the doc for class Hash, in the part "Looping over hash keys and values" should show an example which uses destructuring instead of .kv .
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gfldex but then, the docs are not the to be written book called "Learning to program in Perl 6" 18:26
Ben_Goldberg Are you somehow worried that Perl 6 will be called "the language with too much documentation" ? :) 18:28
gfldex i am worried about the maintainability of the docs. Every time something is changed or added (every Christmas I hope) we have to check the docs. Also somebody has to read all that stuff. If you render all .pods into one big html-file it's close to 500 pages A4 already. 18:29
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gfldex $ cat `find doc/ -iname '*.pod6'` | wc -l 18:32
45597
Ben_Goldberg On doc.perl6.org, I notice that each class's documentation has one or more sections, "routines supplied by class X" where X is a superclass... if you removed these sections, you could make the html versions much much smaller. 18:34
Especially when there's so much redundancy.
I think we should separate out those parts into some small common files, which in turn get pulled into the html *on demand*, in the user's browser. 18:36
dalek c: a1ff75d | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Type/Hash.pod6:
link from Hash to destructuring in Signature
gfldex the one page version does not contain any auto generated html
btw. if we rendered it to LaTeX it would be much more then 500 pages because sections are not allowed to begin on a left page. That and a few more rules lead to planty of blank or halve empty pages. 18:40
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freezerburnv Is it possible to define a custom ACCEPTS method on a class? 18:47
gfldex freezerburnv: yes
psch m: class A { method ACCEPTS { say "sure" } }; say "foo" ~~ A; say 5 ~~ A
camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«Too many positionals passed; expected 1 argument but got 2␤ in method ACCEPTS at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
psch aw
but you of course need a param 18:48
m: class A { method ACCEPTS($) { say "sure" } }; say "foo" ~~ A; say 5 ~~ A
camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«sure␤True␤sure␤True␤»
freezerburnv gfldex, Alright. Well I'm running into an interesting case where I theoretically should have a working ACCEPTS method, and it's returning False, but what the code that uses it is getting is True
I can put up a gist
psch (gisting long non-working code)++ 18:50
timotimo can you make sure it's running the ACCEPTS method you're expecting it to? 18:51
gfldex also: packages.debian.org/search?searcho...p;arch=any
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freezerburnv gist.github.com/anonymous/e6859b1f...8ff5b9571a 18:52
timotimo, It is, I have output in the ACCEPTS method
psch m: gist.github.com/anonymous/e6859b1f...8ff5b9571a
camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«True␤True␤»
freezerburnv At least in my code, in the gist I don't
psch freezerburnv: looks like the gist works on camelia? you're expecting True, right?
freezerburnv psch, THe first should be true, the second should be False 18:53
bar != foo in the second one
psch oh, i didn't look at the gist yet, sorry
timotimo m: say "foo" ~~ "bar"
camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«False␤»
timotimo oh
hehe
psch m: sub f { return False and die }; f
camelia ( no output )
timotimo the and is looser than return
psch timotimo++ :)
timotimo so you've got "(return Blah) and $foo ~~ $bar" 18:54
freezerburnv timotimo, -_- OH
That was not something I was expecting
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travis-ci Doc build passed. Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer 'doc trappy and/or etc' 19:21
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/145391691 github.com/perl6/doc/compare/a1ff7...4014ff8bbd
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dalek c: a98df89 | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod6:
link from loose operators to traps
 19:38
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Ben_Goldberg m: say( "a" ~| "c" ); 20:16
camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«c␤»
Ben_Goldberg m: say( "a" ~| "b" );
camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«c␤»
TEttinger m: say("aaa" ~| "bcd");
camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«cce␤»
Ben_Goldberg Why doesn't docs.perl6.org/language/traps#Junctions mention ~|, ~&, ~^ ? 20:17
Frameless Ben_Goldberg: because I didn't think of it. PR's are very welcome :) 20:21
Ben_Goldberg: actually, the real reason seems to be that they aren't in Operators doc either docs.perl6.org/language/operators 20:22
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ugexe tbrowder: are you aware `npq` is a typo? 20:25
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tbrowder Yes, and that's my complaint. It's a dyslexic thing (reversing a pair of characters) that gets worse as I age, but I expect the error to be caught during build time, not run time. It makes my development efforts much slower than it should be! 20:29
The bug report is probably not very clear--I'll add some words. Thanks for pointing that out, ugexe. 20:31
TEttinger tbrowder: just curious, but have you ever tried the slightly-tweaked fonts that avoid symmetry in similar letters and change certain letter shapes? 20:34
moritz tbrowder: if you use a somewhat intelligent editor, you can configure it to hilight `npq` as a typo
TEttinger I've seen them mentioned in regards to user style sheets
moritz tbrowder: namespace lookups are runtime by definition; you're allowed to create them in an EVAL and reference them where a compiler has know chance of knowing that you'll later create them dynamically 20:35
that makes typo detection at compile time basically impossible
and since regular, non-namspaced function lookups are compile time, its kinda important to keep this escape valve to allow some dynamic features 20:36
moritz should read the bug report before assuming too much
which issue is that? I can't find it in the backlog 20:37
(at least not in the last few pages of backlog)
lizmat m: foo::bar # note this is also runtime 20:42
camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«Could not find symbol '&bar'␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
timotimo right 20:43
lizmat although one could argue it *could* be made a compile time error ? 20:44
tbrowder The "npq" as alphabetical order has strong mental attachments and is hard to overcome, but I guess I'll learn to deal with it. Thanks all. I'll close the issue.
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tbrowder moritz: I'm using emacs, know how I can flag the typo? 20:45
moritz tbrowder: dunno, I'm not an emacs user
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moritz lizmat: I don't think it can be a compile time rror 20:46
geekosaur www.emacswiki.org/emacs/AutoCorrection
moritz m: use MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL; EVAL q[ module Foo { our bar() { say 24 }}]; Foo::bar()
camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Type 'bar' is not declared␤at /home/camelia/EVAL_0:1␤------> 3 module Foo { our bar7⏏5() { say 24 }}␤Malformed our␤at /home/camelia/EVAL_0:1␤------> 3 module Foo { our7⏏5 bar() { say 24 }}␤␤»
geekosaur you can define "npq" as an abbrev that gets corrected to "nqp", or configure flyspell to highlight it as an error
moritz m: use MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL; EVAL q[ module Foo { our sub bar() { say 24 }}]; Foo::bar() 20:47
camelia rakudo-moar 68b66c: OUTPUT«24␤»
moritz this is a perfectly legal Perl 6 program, and a reason you can't compile-time catch missing namespace lookups at compile time
tbrowder Issue is closed. 20:50
lizmat moritz++
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TimToady waves from Roma 21:05
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neuron Hi 22:00
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neuron I have my class Object is repr<CPPStruct> { ... } 22:00
$a = Object.new(...); 22:01
now is there a way to have a method of the Object class to be called if I try to convert it to bool?
For example in say "yes" if $a;
timotimo sure, just give it the Bool method and don't mark it "native" 22:02
at least i think that's how
neuron Ah, _that_ simple?
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timotimo i think the cppstruct doesn't make a difference here 22:03
but *shrug* i never tried to use it yet :S
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neuron Many thans timotimo! 22:07
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timotimo m: use NativeCall; my class Foo is repr<CPPStruct> { method Bool { say "Aye" } }; say so Foo.new 22:08
camelia rakudo-moar 242baf: OUTPUT«Aye␤True␤»
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neuron So, how does p6 know that Bool method is for converting to Bool? Is it becase of the upper case letter in front of method name? 22:18
gfldex neuron: gen/moar/m-CORE.setting:9718:multi sub prefix:<so>(Mu \a) { a.Bool } 22:20
timotimo it's a convention that's upheld in different parts of the compiler and its core library
when you have a coercive type, for example, it'll call the method of that name
konobi ha! just had a thought about using terralang along with lua-Coat (ie: moose) and IOC to make a configurable NQP backend 22:22
yoleaux 16 Jul 2016 11:42Z <pmurias> konobi: using v8-profiler and loading the profiles in chrome turned out the thing I needed for profiling
konobi ah, cool
yoleaux: tell pmurias were you able to get the flamegraph representations? 22:23
neuron gfldex, timotimo: Ah, I see. Nice convention. Than you
konobi bah, can't remember the syntax for leaving notes 22:24
gfldex .tell konobi that's how it's done
yoleaux gfldex: I'll pass your message to konobi.
konobi .tell pmurias were you able to get the flamegraph representations from the chrome devtools? 22:25
yoleaux 22:24Z <gfldex> konobi: that's how it's done
konobi: I'll pass your message to pmurias.
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dalek c: e8d31be | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | doc/Language/5to6-perlfunc.pod6:
｢state｣ is documented
 22:32
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stevieb any chance someone could take a look at perlmonks.org/?node_id=1167927 and see if they can help? 23:24
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ugexe m: my @a = 1,2,3,4; say <<a b {"b".succ} @a>> # Why isn't @a interpolated? 23:43
camelia rakudo-moar 242baf: OUTPUT«(a b c @a)␤»
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ugexe sure {@a} but its not required for $var 23:44
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timotimo maybe because you should [] it? 23:52
gfldex m: my @a = 1,2,3,4; say "1@a2" 23:53
camelia rakudo-moar 242baf: OUTPUT«1@a2␤»
gfldex m: my @a = 1,2,3,4; say "1@a[]2"
camelia rakudo-moar 242baf: OUTPUT«11 2 3 42␤»
gfldex ugexe: <> and «» behave in the same way as '' and ""
ugexe: see design.perl6.org/S02.html#Relations...2%AB%C2%BB 23:55
ugexe ah. ive always made a habit of using {...} for all interpolation inside "" so I didnt realize
gfldex and asking for the zen-slice on @-interolations is because of [email@hidden.address] to be much more common then actual @a interpolation 23:56
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ugexe i think i've known and forgot about this more than once 23:58

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