»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz on 22 December 2015.
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MasterDuke b2gills: `Bool.roll($len)` is twice as slow as `Bool.roll xx $len` 00:17
m: my $l = 1_000_000; my @a = Bool.roll xx $l; say now - INIT now
camelia 0.6908779
MasterDuke m: my $l = 1_000_000; my @a = Bool.roll($l); say now - INIT now 00:18
camelia 2.5277403
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b2gills Is there a bug report? 00:20
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MasterDuke b2gills: don't think so. github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1675 is kind of related 00:32
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MasterDuke i'm seeing if there are any quick fixes now 00:33
nqp::floor_n is not being jitted
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AlexDaniel squashable6: next 01:48
squashable6 AlexDaniel, ⚠🍕 Next SQUASHathon in 4 days and ≈8 hours (2018-04-07 UTC-12⌁UTC+14). See github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Mont...Squash-Day
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AlexDaniel any p6 magicians here? How can you possibly get 99 Bottles of Beer in 96 characters? 01:58
I stripped down my solution to only include text (no logic whatsoever) 01:59
“no more bottle of beer on the wall Take one down and pass it around Go to the store and buy some more” – 101 character
oops
I mean perl5* of course
and I'm talking about this: code-golf.io/scores/99-bottles-of-beer 02:00
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AlexDaniel I see there are some relatively short golfs of the same task in perl5, but not 96 characters omg 02:01
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Kaiepi would it be an encoding thing? 02:21
AlexDaniel,
AlexDaniel possibly, yeah? 02:22
something like this maybe: github.com/AlexDaniel/6lang-golf-c...e-0x110000
but you still can't just encode the whole thing
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Zoffix perlbot: eval: '$n=pop||99;sub b{"$n bottle@{[$n!=1&&s=>]} of beer"}print$b=b,$w=' on the wall',", $b!\nTake one down, pass it around,\n",b($n--),"$w!\n\n"while$n 02:26
yoleaux 1 Apr 2018 12:17Z <tbrowder_> Zoffix: i took a quick look at doc build and saw a couple msgs about pod table issues but i can’t duplicate it again
perlbot Zoffix: ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/QJsDllWp8D Bogus statement at /tmp/QJsDllWp8D:1 ------> {[$n!=1&&s=>]} of beer"}print$b=b,$w=' o⏏n the wall',", $b!\nTake one down, pass expecting any of: whitespace [Exited 1]
Zoffix m: say chars «$n=pop||99;sub b{"$n bottle@{[$n!=1&&s=>]} of beer"}print$b=b,$w=' on the wall',", $b!\nTake one down, pass it around,\n",b($n--),"$w!\n\n"while$n» 02:28
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Variable '$n' is not declared
at <tmp>:1
------> 3say chars «7⏏5$n=pop||99;sub b{"$n bottle@{[$n!=1&&s=>
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Zoffix m: say 147-101 02:28
camelia 46
Zoffix m: say chars " bottle of beer on the wall, !\nTake one down, pass it around,\n!\n\n" 02:29
camelia 65
Zoffix AlexDaniel: ^ only 65 chars of text in that one, not 101
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AlexDaniel Zoffix: but “Go to the store and buy some more” ? 02:39
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Zoffix Ah 02:51
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vcv great cheatsheet, AlexDaniel 03:05
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vcv another little trick i found, don't know if it's intended to actually work, but if you use the ^ twigil you can later reference the same variable without the twigil 03:10
m: { say $^a, "==", $a } for 1...5
camelia 1==1
2==2
3==3
4==4
5==5
Zoffix Yeah, that's meant to work. Lets you use that variable in nested scopes 03:11
m: { say $^a, ' -> ', { $a + 42 }() }(5)
camelia 5 -> 47
vcv Sweet.
Zoffix same with $: twigil 03:12
vcv yep, that's exactly what i used it for on code-golf.io/christmas-trees
Zoffix m: { say $:foo, ' -> ', { $foo + 42 }() }(:5foo)
camelia 5 -> 47
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Zoffix .seen pmichaud 03:20
yoleaux I saw pmichaud 22 Mar 2018 09:56Z in #perl6: <pmichaud> happy spring equinox to all
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jmerelo bench: compare HEAD Bool.roll xx 10000 ||| Bool.roll(10000) 05:30
yoleaux 1 Apr 2018 22:54Z <b2gills> jmerelo: `Bool.roll xx $len` is probably better written as `Bool.roll($len)`
benchable6 jmerelo, starting to benchmark the 1 given commit 05:31
jmerelo, gist.github.com/9962ed8ad9c218ce79...8fdc1c37b8
jmerelo .tell b2gills check the comparison above. Maybe it's more idiomatic, but the first way is 300 times faster. 05:32
yoleaux jmerelo: I'll pass your message to b2gills.
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AlexDaniel jmerelo: you sure it's 300 times not 3 times? 05:36
jmerelo: fwiw see this: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1681
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jmerelo AlexDaniel: right, 30 times. Faster anyway. 05:40
AlexDaniel I'm measuring 3 times here
bench: compare HEAD Bool.roll xx 1000000 ||| Bool.roll(1000000)
benchable6 AlexDaniel, starting to benchmark the 1 given commit
AlexDaniel, gist.github.com/75b33fa2381463affa...011a48a84f
AlexDaniel bench: compare HEAD say +(Bool.roll xx 1000000) ||| say +Bool.roll(1000000) 05:41
benchable6 AlexDaniel, starting to benchmark the 1 given commit
AlexDaniel, ¦HEAD: «Benchmark: ␤«timed out after 10 seconds»»
AlexDaniel gosh…
bench: compare HEAD say +(Bool.roll xx 100000) ||| say +Bool.roll(100000)
benchable6 AlexDaniel, starting to benchmark the 1 given commit
AlexDaniel, gist.github.com/bd886430324ffb4b8e...2b746b44a2
AlexDaniel ok whatever 05:42
AlexDaniel dislocates 05:43
jmerelo AlexDaniel: Do you maybe have some time to talk about gist.github.com/Whateverable/9962e...8fdc1c37b8 05:44
AlexDaniel: never mind that now. 05:48
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Geth_ doc: d0297beff9 | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Type/Signature.pod6
Adds example for destructuring hashes in pointy loops

Closes #1466		 06:27
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/type/Signature
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travis-ci Doc build passed. JJ Merelo 'Adds example for destructuring hashes in pointy loops 06:50
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/361076887 github.com/perl6/doc/compare/c91b2...297beff909
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Geth_ doc/table-sorting: f856a13ec1 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 14 files
Implement assets generator

We're coming up to having 5 JS files now. 2 years ago, the argument to leave them unminified was that someone would be able to debug JS problems on live site. Doesn't seem practical to me any more. No reason to punish thousands of docs readers, for years, with extra bandwidth and HTTP requests, on an off chance we'll save this mythical "debugger" 20 seconds of not having to clone the repo and run the dev web app that caters unminified assets.		 07:13
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AlexDaniel jmerelo: well, what is about gist.github.com/Whateverable/9962e...8fdc1c37b8 07:22
Geth_ doc: e7d367c3f2 | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
Adds `callsame` example for perl 6

Closes #1388
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/5to6-nutshell
AlexDaniel comparing 9ms to 0.3ms is a bit weird :)
both are really fast IMO
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AlexDaniel and benchable doesn't really say how noisy these were :( 07:23
but there were 10 iterations which is of course good :)
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travis-ci Doc build passed. Zoffix Znet 'Implement assets generator 07:29
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/361085104 github.com/perl6/doc/commit/f856a13ec12a
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jmerelo AlexDaniel: they matter if you do that millions of times 07:29
AlexDaniel: It's unlikely that it's the bottleneck in an application, but they could be...
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lichtkind_ how doe travis and appveyor run when my p6 modul is hosted on cpan? 07:49
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Geth_ doc/table-sorting: 2fcaf61580 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | app.pl
Spurt all asset files in non-minified mode
 07:53
doc/table-sorting: b3481ef6dc | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 4 files
Add table sorter jQuery plugin
 07:55
jmerelo lichtkind: you have to include the configuration in your GitHub repo.
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pmurias timotimo, anyone else: shouldn't Str:U be identical as it seems to be create at this line: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/mast...OW.nqp#L32 08:02
lichtkind jmerelo, so you let it on github anyway and cpan becomes just second storage? 08:03
thanks jmerelo i wanted to ask that anyway :)
jmerelo, i added recently veyor.yml and nothing happened on github 08:05
Geth_ doc/table-sorting: d78704204d | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 2 files
Add sort indicator arrows
 08:09
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Zoffix pmurias: Yeah, I'd say so. There's bug RT#128287 where parametarization is messed up. I think there's also a ticket where the type smileys cause similar issue 08:14
synopsebot RT#128287 [open]: rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=128287 [BUG] Type check `Array[Foo]` in module gets confused if `Array[Foo]` was already referenced in another precompiled module.
Zoffix Maybe not. But yeah, if you're using Hash[Str:U], then ^ that bug (and all the referenced tickets in it) look to be about that bug 08:15
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pmurias Zoffix: using Hash[Str:U] makes Str:U behave properly 08:17
Zoffix Oh, no idea then 08:18
pmurias Zoffix: I'm running into the bug because I'm trying to fix a failing roast test on rakudo.js and when running stuff on rakudo.moar to understand things stuff seems to behave in a crazy manner
Geth_ doc: df93a16c00 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | type-graph.txt
List HyperWhatever in type graph
 08:21
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Geth doc/table-sorting: 930ff6c160 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 2 files
Use proper HTML table headers

Instead of just boldening the first row		 08:34
doc/table-sorting: e1a90438ea | (Zoffix Znet)++ | assets/js/main.js
Setup table sorter on largish tables
doc: zoffixznet++ created pull request #1891:
Implement table sorting for large tables		 08:36
doc/master: 7 commits pushed by (Zoffix Znet)++
lichtkind i see wher ein my github repo i have to enable travis but nothing about appveyor, what do i do not see? 08:39
Zoffix lichtkind: which repo is this? 08:40
jmerelo lichtkind: I usually search Moritz's all-modules repo for that kind of thing. In the case of appveyor, there's also an .appveyor.yml configuration file, such as this one github.com/moritz/perl6-all-module...pveyor.yml (firsts on the list)
lichtkind i did my appveyor file mbut nothing happened 08:41
jmerelo lichtkind: you have to also sign on for Appveyor if you want tests run when you push to master.
lichtkind Math::Matrix im not the main owner there thatswhy i akse to see if there is something i dont see because of that
jmerelo, i see its a paid service? 08:42
jmerelo Zoffix: I get you dislike comments, even laudatory ones, to commits. Won't happen again. I just wanted to express kudos for that work. That won't happen again either.
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gfldex m: my $c = 0; for ^10 { say ({ $c += 2}, { $c -= 2}).pick.() } 08:43
camelia -2
0
2
4
6
4
6
8
6
8
gfldex :)
random functional programming \o/
Zoffix jmerelo: yeah, it's annoying to get a notification and then go to the page and scroll through the entire commit looking for a message, only to come to some thumbs icon. 08:44
And 159 people watch the repo, so 159 notifications were sent and and a subset of the recepients performed the process I described. 08:45
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jmerelo lichtkind: I think you can have it for free for public repos. 08:48
lichtkind jmerelo++, thanks
Geth doc: ac14f6f7f0 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | lib/Pod/Htmlify.pm6
Make &svg-for-file 7x faster
 08:52
moritz Zoffix++ 08:55
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Geth doc: b14f5ddd16 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 2 files
Inline typegraph snippet

To avoid spending CPU time on all the slurpage and replacement		 09:07
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travis-ci Doc build failed. Zoffix Znet 'Make &svg-for-file 7x faster' 09:10
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/361105273 github.com/perl6/doc/compare/acb47...14f6f7f08b
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buggable [travis build above] ☠ Did not recognize some failures. Check results manually. 09:10
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Geth doc: a48befd75f | (Zoffix Znet)++ | htmlify.p6
Don't create an Array that's not needed
 09:13
doc: aaf5fd88fd | (Zoffix Znet)++ | t/pod-htmlify.t
Allow newline at end of extracted SVG code
 09:14
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jmerelo Zoffix: there's an issue about refactoring htmlify.p6 github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1823 I would be very grateful if you would mention it in the commits where you work with it, just so those following that particular issue are aware of changes. 09:19
Geth doc: dc5c9e2dc5 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | htmlify.p6
Use separate sub for logged URL rewrites

callsame and slurpy handling are both slow.		 09:23
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travis-ci Doc build failed. Zoffix Znet 'Inline typegraph snippet 09:24
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/361108908 github.com/perl6/doc/compare/ac14f...4f5ddd16d7
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buggable [travis build above] ☠ Did not recognize some failures. Check results manually. 09:24
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stmuk_ hmmm I seem to have missed this 09:34
www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqo9uu8A-Go
probably similar to
sfi.org.pl/prelegenci/larry-wall/ 09:35
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travis-ci Doc build passed. Zoffix Znet 'Allow newline at end of extracted SVG code' 09:35
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/361110710 github.com/perl6/doc/compare/a48be...f5fd88fdf9
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travis-ci Doc build passed. Zoffix Znet 'Use separate sub for logged URL rewrites 09:42
travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/361113242 github.com/perl6/doc/compare/aaf5f...5c9e2dc539
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Geth doc: 42dc344af5 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | lib/Pod/Htmlify.pm6
Micro-optimize &rewrite-url routine
 09:53
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Geth doc: f27849a0df | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | util/trigger-rebuild.txt
Trigger rebuild

New asset maker needed updated modules installed on build server		 10:22
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Geth doc: a9af713378 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | util/update-and-sync
Use user perl for build
 10:35
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AlexDaniel fwiw: blog.github.com/2018-02-18-depreca...-creation/ 10:44
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tadzik ugh 10:45
then again, they're not a pastebin
timotimo aaw, i was using that!
tadzik I wonder if nextcloud has its pastebin module, hm 10:46
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timotimo let's just make one in perl6 … 10:46
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tadzik źblog kinda was one :) 10:46
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Geth doc: 1c03654242 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | util/trigger-rebuild.txt
trigger-rebuild
 10:51
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lichtkind math-matrix sucessfully converted to apüvayor 12:10
El_Che i.pinimg.com/564x/f4/ca/a4/f4caa47...ly-art.jpg 12:11
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jmerelo lichtkind: congrats! 12:42
MasterDuke jmerelo: are you using all the versions of xover? or which is the fastest? 12:47
jmerelo for the time being, xover.p6. I followed timotimo's advice of using skip and that kind of things. 12:48
MasterDuke cool
jmerelo MasterDuke: still, incredibly slow. Like orders of magnitude slower than Perl. I expected using shaped arrays would make it faster, but it does not. In general, using immutable data structures in functional languages speeds things up, but I'm not sure how to it in this case. 12:49
timotimo shaped arrays are very slow at the moment
jmerelo MasterDuke: Thanks a lot for your contribution, also. And advice. 12:50
MasterDuke yeah, i was trying to experiment with Bufs, or shaped native array, but nothing was faster than an unshaped regular array
i believe the other things will get faster eventually (for some use cases at least), but i think they just aren't used as much right now and haven't received the same amount of optimization 12:51
jmerelo Just produced another draft github.com/JJ/2016-ea-languages-wc...v2018-0.99 Any help will be appreciated and acknowledged. 12:52
MasterDuke: it might just be I am not doing it right, in a properly functional way. I checked out the Haskell version github.com/JJ/2016-ea-languages-wc.../onemax.hs but to tell you the truth I couldn't figure it out. 12:53
MasterDuke: same happens with Scale. It should be blazingly fast, but it's not, second slowest after Perl 6. Maybe crossover the way we understand it now is simply not made for functional languages. 12:54
s/Scale/Scala/
MasterDuke heh, sorry, i can't help you there in the slightest, i know nothing haskell
jmerelo MasterDuke: that applies to most people I know. I've been banging my head against it for some time, but I just can't. 12:55
MasterDuke i was intrigued when the Pugs project got started, but even that wasn't motivation enough to try and learn 12:56
jmerelo MasterDuke: That was a great project. Audrey Tang deserves kudos for that. And she produced the only academic paper I've been able to find on Perl 6... 12:59
If my paper is accepted, that will bring up the grand total to two.
MasterDuke a 100% increase! 13:00
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jmerelo Attracting the economic community would be a great thing for Perl 6. After all, they were the one maintaining R and Scala for a long time until they found their niche... 13:02
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jmerelo On the other hand, I think it's mostly the academic community what's supporting Java and PHP right now... 13:02
Anyway...
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Ulti the academic community??? 13:19
jmerelo Ulti: people in universities, I mean. 13:20
Ulti what do you mean by supported
Java is one of the most popular languages of all in industry
and PHP is still heavily used on the web
Facebook both use and hugely improved the implementation of PHP relatively recently for example 13:21
jmerelo Ulti: I don't mean to start a flame war here. Java and PHP are the two languages favored in higher education. Now Java is being substituted by Python, little by little. Point is, it's widely used because it's widely taught. And it's widely taught because it was a nice language like 15 years ago. Academia moves very slowly. Same goes for PHP, it's the thing taught at entry-level web courses. Point is, making a 13:23
language known and loved in academia eventually spills over to industry.
Ulti that doesnt really explain the rise of JavaScript or even how Perl got popular to begin with
jmerelo Ulti: it's not meant to explain *everything*. Just support my point that academia is a good community to gather support for a new language. 13:24
Ulti Java with Android means its not going to be phased out by anything any time soon
other than perhaps Kotlin
jmerelo Ulti: you can write progressive web apps with HTML and javascript. Also if you use Xamarin you can use any tool. 13:25
Ulti these languages all have niches of use case not just educated users
jmerelo sorry, off to lunch. Cheers.
Ulti enjoy
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Ulti if the majority of people I knew only stayed in the language they learnt at university I'd be much more up for agreeing with you entirely 13:26
I actually dont know anyone who did from my undergrad all of us ended up somewhere else and almost ironically the one person I know who writes Java every day was taught Pascal! 13:27
anecdotal evidence to be sure
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Geth doc: e76d3f1faf | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
nbsp
 13:29
doc: 212e191205 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
needs hypen
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/5to6-nutshell
doc: 317274002a | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | xt/code.pws
learn new variable name
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dogbert17 [Coke]: I guess you run htmlify.pl quite often no? 14:03
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[Coke] eh? 14:06
Not exactly, but what's the question?
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jdv79 so if i just say a few times i see them as they happen. if i redirect stdout to a file i only see the first while the program is running and then the rest on program completion 14:11
any idea where this buffering is happening?
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jdv79 looks like $*OUT.flush fixes it. is there a flag to turn off buffering? 14:14
dogbert17 [Coke]: when was the last time that program SEGV'd on you? 14:15
timotimo jdv79: file handles let you change the buffer size, not entirely sure if it'll work after the file handle had already been created or if you need to build a new one
[Coke] SEGV? never.
dogbert17 [Coke]: I want to close github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/issues/325 don't think it's relevant anymore
[Coke] I am running on a mac most of time, fwiw.
timotimo i think it only crashes when you use parallel builds? 14:16
jdv79 i'm confused why the diff tween tty and file but ok
[Coke] dogbert17: haven't seen that particular failure since the ticket was opened in 2016
timotimo if you have a tty open, you do not want buffering 14:17
if you have a file open, you do want buffering
[Coke] doc build technically supports || builds, but, as far as I know, no one uses them because they are unreliable (but not segfaulting)
jdv79 $*OUT.out-buffer=0 seem to work for now 14:18
thanks
timotimo gr8
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jdv79 im not sure that "standard operation procedure" 14:19
as in running foo.pl6 and foo.pl6 > foo.log i don't expect to have to change the program to get the output
is it that a "\n" causes a flush? - that might be more normal 14:20
in genernal unixishness
dogbert17 meh, I'm not allowed to close it so I added a comment instead
[Coke] jdv79: yes, sounds right.
jdv79 is that a bug? rakudo does not do that. 14:21
Geth whateverable/master: 7 commits pushed by (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++
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AlexDaniel releasable6: status 14:25
releasable6 AlexDaniel, Next release in ≈19 days and ≈4 hours. 4 blockers. 0 out of 149 commits logged (⚠ 9 warnings) 14:26
AlexDaniel, Details: gist.github.com/9b541f3d3e7ca71ff8...d963eb2eb1
AlexDaniel [Coke]: look! It no longer complains about the missing changelog! Isn't it awesome? ;D
it also understands github blockers now! wowowowowowowowow 14:27
xD
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timotimo sounds good! 14:35
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jnthn A while back, remote debug support went into MoarVM and I said it was in aid of something we were building at Edument, where I work. This is the thing we're working on: www.commaide.com/ :) 15:40
jmerelo jnthn: wow. Looks awesome. 15:41
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tadzik waited until April 2nd, haven't you? :P 15:42
looks fantastic!
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dogbert17 jnthn: looks absolutely brilliant 15:44
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jnthn :) 15:46
Geth doc: sfischer13++ created pull request #1892:
Fix typo		 15:54
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jdv79 are peoples clamoring for an IDE these days? 16:08
Bowlslaw ewww IDEs
vim master race
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jnthn Some are. Some aren't. :-) 16:09
Bowlslaw hunkers down for impending flame war
jnthn Choice is good.
Bowlslaw On an honest note, I think that it depends on the dev environment and what they are doing
if you have a large dev team with a boilerplate language like Java or Scala, it's probably much better for productivity and understanding if you use an IDE 16:10
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AlexDaniel ah, yet another crippled IDE. Next! 16:17
pmurias AlexDaniel: crippled?
AlexDaniel pmurias: well, the free version ofc
Bowlslaw of what? 16:18
AlexDaniel and the paid one… well… costs money, so Next! too
pmurias AlexDaniel: commaide doesn't seem to be free
AlexDaniel pmurias: free ““community”” version is promised
jmerelo AlexDaniel: not clear if it's free as in free beer or free as in free speech. 16:20
Bowlslaw lol
AlexDaniel jmerelo: obviously not libre, or at least the paid version is not
Bowlslaw you can turn vim into a full-fledged perl IDE with just a few plugins, though I think that does largely eliminate the purpose of using vim 16:21
zostay If someone else wants to use an IDE, that's fine, but I find that using an IDE erodes my skills because I start to forget things I can just Meta+Tab 12 times to find, which leads to slowing down my productivity over time. 16:22
jmerelo I still think it's a good idea and it can help the community at large. Not for me, however. I am (relatively) happy with emacs, although I switch to Atom when I have to edit PODs. 16:23
Besides, I'm in principle against non-free editors for developing free software. And I'm on the record for that medium.com/@jjmerelo/7-reasons-or-...616989be54
But that's a matter of opinion. In this case, I think it's a good idea to have a commercial product based on Perl 6, and in the long run it will benefit the community. It will benefit much more (and the other way round) if it's free software, but that's their call, not mine. 16:24
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El_Che Programmers that use an IDE at work, won't move to vim/emacs for Perl 6 16:28
ideally, perl6 should work out on the box on the major IDEs
Bowlslaw yeah
jmerelo El_Che: well, that pretty much happens with Atom. Works pretty well. I still haven't found the way to do interactive debugging, though. Maybe there's one, but I haven't been able to put it to work. 16:29
if CommaIDE offers that, I'll dive into it, no questions asked.
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El_Che I use Atom for Perl 6. I know it's an editor, but I must say it's the creappiest IDE I have used 16:29
crappiest 16:30
Zoffix jnthn: both "Early Supporter" and "Late Supporter" options are priced at €120.. Is that a typo?
Uh... and "Comma Complete" options is also 120 euros... 16:31
jnthn Zoffix: No, the difference is in updates (also see the FAQ for why this model)
pmurias people believing in Perl 6 enough to try to build a commercial project for it is reasurring 16:32
* reassuring
jmerelo pmurias++
jnthn jmerelo: Yes, interactive debugging is in there
That's why we built and donated remote debug support to MoarVM 16:33
Zoffix Ah, k, now I get it. 16:34
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Zoffix Well, sign me up \o/ 16:34
jnthn <3
mst I like the supporter model
jnthn: you're using java for the parser rather than rakudo ? 16:35
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jnthn mst: Actually the parsing was quite interesting to deal with, because the IDEA platform wants a separate lexer and parser, but the Perl 6 grammars approach doesn't separate them. So I built a Perl 6 grammar subset compiler that spits out a lexer and parser, the parser using the IDEA tree-building mechanism. 16:37
El_Che jnthn: how does the update of the intelliJ plugin work? 16:38
mst jnthn: oooooh right
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jnthn mst: So the parser is written as a Perl 6 grammar with some annotations to define where we expect to build PSI nodes (their name for AST nodes) 16:39
El_Che jnthn: e.g. the golang plugin is only available in the Full IDE (not in de CE), that how they lock the access to the plugin
jnthn And compiled into a Java lexer and parser
mst that sounds entirely reasonable, but possibly only because I have a high tolerance for batshit insanity in the name of cool features 16:40
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jnthn If you give a compiler writer a problem, guess how they'll solve it? :P 16:40
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nige jnthn++ on Comma - I like the brand :-) 16:40
mst laughs ... "point"
jnthn El_Che: Should work fine with the CE 16:42
Geth doc: 6197f55770 | (Stefan Fischer)++ | doc/Type/Signature.pod6
Fix typo
doc: cf4d89b4eb | (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Type/Signature.pod6
Fixes unduly capitalized IF
doc: db79a909d7 | (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Type/Signature.pod6
Merge pull request #1892 from sfischer13/master

Fix typo
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/type/Signature
jnthn Well, more than should, does, I used it exactly that way today :)
El_Che jnthn: yes, I thought so. But will it we auto updateble like regular plugins? (I wonder if you can restrict the access that way) 16:43
jnthn El_Che: Not totally sure about that part yet; if we can make it happen that conveniently, we of course will :) 16:44
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nige I think there is a real opportunity for an IDE's that can identify syntactic, semantic problems and then offer to the programmer to apply the fix 16:45
- to avoid having to manually type the changes 16:46
this is a poor man's version of the kind of workflow I'm thinking of .... perl6advent.wordpress.com/2016/12/...xing-flow/
currently coding something in golang using visual studio "code" on linux - and it doesn't go the next step of automatically applying fixes 16:48
- I think this would be killer feature of a Perl 6 ide - to keep the programmer in 'flow' by helping them to identify problems and automatically apply fixes
jnthn nige: Yes, for each error or warning that we annotate it's possible to provide matching fixes. :) 16:49
nige that's cool! :-)
jnthn (And we'll certainly be working on that.)
nige great - exciting to hear
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buggable New CPAN upload: Image-QRCode-0.0.3.tar.gz by FRITH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/F/FR/...0.3.tar.gz 17:07
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jmerelo bye now 17:09
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benjikun I know standalone executables aren't available yet, but will they be offered with future versions of Rakudo? 17:20
Zoffix benjikun: standalone executables of what? The programs you write? 17:21
benjikun Zoffix: Yeah
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benjikun Is that an aimed to-be feature of Rakudo? 17:21
El_Che benjikun: won't happen in the short period
Zoffix benjikun: yeah, I've seen a few people try to add that feature, so I'd say it's aimed to-be feature yeah.
benjikun Ah, thanks buds 17:22
Zoffix eco: Wix
buggable Zoffix, App::InstallerMaker::WiX 'Tool to make basic WiX installers for Perl 6 apps, bundling MoarVM/Rakudo.': github.com/jnthn/p6-app-installermaker-wix
Zoffix There's already that for Windows. It bundles rakudo + moarvm with the program or something
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pmurias nige: eclipse does the autofix for java 17:22
El_Che Zoffix: I don't see it happening as long rakudo isn't relocable
benjikun El_Che: What does relocable mean 17:23
Zoffix El_Che: yeah, it's precluded on it being relocable, but it's not like making it relocable isn't on the aimed to-be feature
benjikun: once you install it somewhere, currentl you can't move that installation into a different directory.
El_Che benjikun: that you the install location insn't hardcode at compile time 17:24
d
benjikun I see
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benjikun Interesting how the search term "Perl 6" on Google Trends shows such a large majority of searches from china 17:30
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benjikun It looks like it's been on a slow decline since the beginning of 2016 17:31
Zoffix The China thing was brought up before: www.reddit.com/r/perl6/comments/85..._in_china/ 17:32
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Zoffix benjikun: or put differently: the beginning of 2016 is when our first stable release was released, after 15 years of development. That was big news and even people not interested in Perl 6 looked it up and then later that stabilized. 17:33
benjikun Yeah that's a reasonable conclusion
Zoffix So, a single chart with no context doesn't give you a lot of information. You can see if it's going up or down, but you've no idea why. 17:34
benjikun It still seems like a substantially larger amount of traffic from China compared to most other small(er) programming languages
or any search term in general 17:35
over a considerable amount of time
Zoffix The difference looks even more extreme with Python: trends.google.com/trends/explore?q...#GEO_MAP_1
ZofBot: that's all secret government haxors, amirite?
ZofBot Zoffix, looked after him every weekend
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benjikun The term `perl` by itself has been on decline since 2004, overall 17:38
The majority of universities I've been to (at least in the US) only teach perl5 for system administration 17:40
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lizmat and another Perl 6 Weekly hits the Net: p6weekly.wordpress.com/2018/04/02/...rl-6-idea/ 17:41
benjikun Whew, a few of the blog posts in this week's p6weekly reflect what we've been discussing 17:42
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Zoffix benjikun: TBH, I really hope the wallowing in self-pity so many Perl 5 users love to do doesn't carry over to the Perl 6 community. The incessant discussions about the decline of Perl are a self-fullfilling prophecy: no one wants to participate in a community that only talks how the end is near. And while the prophecy of the apocalyptic doomsday is metaphorically fitting, given the language's Christian 18:09
influence, it's also goddamn depressing. What difference does discussing some chart make? Nothing. Go make something cool in Perl and talk about that instead. Get people fucking excited.
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Ulti yeah agree with that, its offputting enough Im tempted to unsub the /r/perl reddit 18:10
Bowlslaw Zoffix: I haven't seen that much in Perl 5
Ulti its either super newb questions about regex or someone asking why is perl disliked etc. week by week
Bowlslaw then again I try to stick to people who only get stuff done
i also work at a company that uses perl 5 xd
Zoffix lizmat++ # yey! 2 weeklies in one week \o/
Bowlslaw also, reddit = brain damage
Ulti I think the problem is the "community" dont understand they are actually a minority of perl users, most of whom dont really care or identify with programming in perl 18:11
probably because its their second or third language and they mostly use it for relatively mundane tasks
not many people go nuts for being in the bash community but everyone uses a shell daily
Zoffix :)
Ulti I mean sed and awk are going strong still, but I have zero interest in being part of their user mailing list 18:12
playing sedtris almost made me want to
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Ulti github.com/uuner/sedtris/blob/mast...edtris.sed 18:17
pmurias Util: I doubt the fate of sed and awk is something a large part of the "community" is enthusasiastic about
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Bowlslaw stackoverflow.com/questions/496169...and-dbiish 18:46
Ulti www.commaide.com/ oh wow.... 18:50
there arent enough round of aplause emoji for this
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Ulti I cant find the place that takes my money.... 18:54
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jnthn Ulti: Yes, available from *May*. :-) 18:56
stmuk_ can I suggest another FAQ question for commaide.com/faq? 18:57
jnthn stmuk_: Sure 18:58
Ulti jnthn: sure but take my money now :P
jnthn It'd actually be the first genuine FAQ
Ulti hah
stmuk_ "why is the parser based on P6 grammar rather than being the P6 grammar itself?"
Ulti but seriously this is awesome I was recently contemplating buying the rest of the JetBrains suite its a really good platform
especially the partial commit stuff for git coming in on the new release... is comma based on that? 18:59
jnthn Ulti: I'd *love it* if taking money were that easy. We have a few legal bits (thanks to digital sales tax rules) that we have to make sure we get right, otherwise we'll be in trouble. :-)
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Ulti let me know if I need to send to a shell charity and do gift aid :P 19:02
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Bowlslaw send to my "shell charity" <insert home address. 19:03
moritz jnthn: is this the first b2c product that Edument sells? 19:05
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jnthn Ulti: Looks like we should "inherit" that partial commit stuff from the platform, yeah :) 19:06
El_Che jnthn: price level looks good for companies (intellij ultimate is €500), kind of high for individuals (intellij ultimate is € 149, free for students/teachers/foss). No critic or request, just fyi 19:07
stmuk_ "Generates Java code from AST
El_Che jnthn: great news, by the way. Intellij is a great IDE platform
moritz jnthn++ (jnthn's boss)++ 19:08
builderror Hi, I have some questions about classes and namespaces in perl6, say I have a class in the path 'Web/Framework/Request/Response.pm6', should I name the actual class 'Web::Framework::Request::Response? Ideally I would like to use it as 'Response' after use'ing it, but the documentation is confusing
stmuk_ jnthn: typo "comamnd"
jnthn moritz: Edument yes, but there's a couple of folks in Edument running another company that does do b2c, so it's not entirely new. :) 19:09
builderror In php I can import it by the fully qualified name and after that use it with just the class name
El_Che builderror: my $instance = Very::Long::Name.new(); $instance.foo() 19:10
pprocacci RE: postgres .... Is there a functioning PL/Perl6 module that anyone is aware of?
Bowlslaw pprocacci: you mean like DBIish?
pprocacci Bowlslaw: No, like github.com/leto/plparrot 19:11
builderror El_Che: so if I have a module in a certain path, best practice dictates that I prefix the module name with the entire path?
jnthn builderror: If you mark the class with `is export` then you'll export a short name too. You can `is export(:shorts)` and then people can `use The::Long::Thing :shorts;` to get the short names, if you think it's a bad default to always provide them.
moritz pprocacci: I'm not aware of one
pprocacci moritz: ok
jnthn builderror: So you can have the long name always available and then provide people with a short name too. 19:12
moritz builderror: also, you can use 'constant' to create arbitrary aliases (also for types), though that's a bit clumsy in comparison to rename-on-import
jnthn builderror: Alternatively, if a module doesn't do that, then `my constant Short = Long::And::So::Much;` also does it
ah, moritz beat me to that one
builderror jnthn: can you point me to some documentation that details this?
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jnthn stmuk_: Thanks for the typo, will fix. Also the question is interesting. The heart of the answer is that a grammar for an IDE has to accept every program, no matter how malformed. 19:13
Bowlslaw does Perl 6 have an ORM ?
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builderror Oh it gets briefly mentioned in docs.perl6.org/language/modules.html#is_export 19:14
Zoffix pprocacci: briefly scanning the docs doesn't look like it has what you're looking for, but FWIW there's a DB::Pg module that's better than DBIish for Pg intefacing: modules.perl6.org/dist/DB::Pg:cpan:CTILMES
jnthn builderror: docs.perl6.org/routine/is%20export and the article on exporting will help
builderror Alright I will play with that then
jnthn (Which is linked from there)
builderror I have another question about namespaces and classes, I have mentally mapped the namespace to the directory structure the files reside in on the filesystem, see my earlier commend about paths. What is convention for exceptions then, seeing how they are in the 'X' namespace 19:15
stmuk_ ah
builderror This makes it confusing to figure out where the files are to me, are there best practices / examples for dealing with this 19:16
Or is it just an exception to the general path rule
Zoffix builderror: Personally, I name my exceptions MyModule::X::ExceptionName
moritz I name them X::MyModule::ExceptionName 19:18
Zoffix Also, they don't have to be inside X/Foo/Bar.pm, you can stick them in any file. Just provide the proper path in META6.json
builderror Ah, that makes more sense to me. I looked around on github to see how other people handled this and I saw a few people implementing stuff like `MyModule::Exceptions` which would then be a module filled with exception classes
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Zoffix moritz: they always get exported tho, don't they? R#1458 says it's basically how it's meant to work 19:19
synopsebot R#1458 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1458 Symbols that start with core namespaces always get exported 19:20
stmuk_ I wonder if github.com/JetBrains/hackathon-Embeditor (real vim with intellij) is useable
builderror I should look into META6.json I guess? I'm not sure what the use for it is
Zoffix hmm
eco: author:zoffix
buggable Zoffix, Found 47 results: Acme::Anguish, IRC::Client, WWW, CoreHackers::Sourcery, GlotIO. See modules.perl6.org/s/author%3Azoffix
Zoffix looks for an example 19:21
moritz Zoffix: classes are "our" by default, and thus available in the global namespace (not exported though)
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Zoffix builderror: here's a module that has a bunch of exceptions, but they're all included in the main file: github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-WWW-P6....pm6#L2-L8 the META6.json maps the types to the file they're in: github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-WWW-P6...on#L17-L19 19:22
builderror So what is the actual use for the META6.json file, is it for me to be able to see where the files are? Or is it related to module management with zef or? 19:24
Zoffix builderror: it's mandatory and it tells zef what files your distro has. If you miss a file in `provides` it won't be installed and so won't be usable
And after installation, I can for example do `use WWW::P6lert::X::Network` and that'd load that module, cause it knows WWW::P6lert::X::Network lives in it 19:25
builderror Aaah I see, that makes sense
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builderror Alright thanks everybody, I'm going to cobble together more perl6 now, thanks for explaining stuff to me 19:27
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Zoffix is disappointed no one took up the call to continue modules.perl6.org CPAN feature development :( 19:29
[Coke]: you lied to me :) You said Saturday :) 19:31
The news.perlfoundation.org/ stuff I mean :)
jdv79 are the p6 based bots stable? i have a bot that eventually stops responding. 19:35
idk if its a concurrency thing yet or something else 19:36
Zoffix jdv79: is it using IRC::Client?
[Coke] Yes, apologies.
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jdv79 no. homegrown. 19:36
[Coke] scopes that out right now
jdv79 only updated every once in a while. rakudo its using i mean.
Zoffix Ah. Well, all of our IRC::Client bots are stable, but IME they don't handle netsplits well and people reported that they stop responding to PING events once in a while 19:37
huggable: uptime
huggable Zoffix, nothing found
jdv79 yeah, it eventually stops responding somehow 19:38
Zoffix SourceBaby: uptime
*shrug*. Ain't got a good uptime bot 'cause I recently upgraded and restarted a bunch of 'em 19:39
releasable6: uptime
releasable6 Zoffix, 5 hours, 13 minutes, and 32 seconds, 756.710938MiB maxrss. This is Rakudo version 2018.03-134-g20495f097 built on MoarVM version 2018.03-56-g85fc758ce implementing Perl 6.c.
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Zoffix heh, that's not a lot :) 19:39
jdv79: I'd say our most oft-used bot is Geth (the one that reports all the commits). It's Perl 6 based and both does async IRC connection *and* an async HTTP server listening to GitHub's hooks. So far I'd call it stable and running smoothly 19:41
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jdv79 id say mine kicks out once a week lately. ok... 19:43
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Zoffix AlexDaniel` would be able to tell more on stability. 19:44
The box Geth is on hangs ded once every few weeks, which kinda interferes with measuring how stable long-running software on it is 19:45
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dogbert17 note that AlexDaniel was mucking with releasable earlier today, improving the output, hence the restart 19:51
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Geth modules.perl6.org: 10655772c4 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | .gitignore
Ingore more dev stuff
 19:55
modules.perl6.org: 3b62279866 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 2 files
Add "View raw file" button for CPAN files

Apparently route was implemented but never plugged in into the template		 19:57
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Geth modules.perl6.org: d218820e8b | (Zoffix Znet)++ | lib/ModulesPerl6/Controller/Dist.pm
Mark all PDF files for raw serving only

The -B heuristic appears to fail for some cases (e.g. DB::Pg distro)		 20:02
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Zoffix .tell tyil FWIW, looks like App::Assixt's META is missing {support}{source} URL that points to a repo, so people ain't got a way to report bugs or anything: modules.perl6.org/dist/App::Assixt...META6.json 20:41
yoleaux Zoffix: I'll pass your message to tyil.
Zoffix .tell tyil and modules.perl6.org/dist/App::MPD::Au...META6.json lists a 404 URL for repo 20:47
yoleaux Zoffix: I'll pass your message to tyil.
tyil Zoffix: that seems to be missing in the docs too docs.perl6.org/language/modules#in...META6.json
yoleaux 20:41Z <Zoffix> tyil: FWIW, looks like App::Assixt's META is missing {support}{source} URL that points to a repo, so people ain't got a way to report bugs or anything: modules.perl6.org/dist/App::Assixt...META6.json
20:47Z <Zoffix> tyil: and modules.perl6.org/dist/App::MPD::Au...META6.json lists a 404 URL for repo
tyil support.source is the field? 20:48
should be a string representing url or email, or anything goes?
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tyil I can update the docs for it if I know what to do with it :> 20:48
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Zoffix tyil: URL to repo: github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-WWW-P6...6.json#L23 20:50
tyil alright 20:51
Zoffix S22:489
synopsebot Link: design.perl6.org/S22.html#line_489
tyil any other support fields that I can add?
Zoffix ^ that page lists 5 of them
tyil I am aware of that page, and have been informed multiple times it is not trustworthy
Zoffix this one design.perl6.org/S22.html#support
tyil I used to use that as my go-to reference for META6 until I learned zef doesnt actually support the format there
hence I stick to the one on docs.perl6, which was promised to work with zef as expected 20:52
Zoffix tyil: the site is outdated yeah, but AFAIK S22 is the most up to date doc we have on the support. None of it actually has been finalized as part of Perl 6 spec basically.
tyil: well, dunno what zef does with it, but modules.perl6.org about to learn to use that field to show a button that leads to the repo 20:53
tyil I know the site is sometimes outdated, but since I also cant rely on S22 it's very annoying to work out such things
if you are sure this part of S22 is correct I don't minding adding it to docs.perl6
but I don't feel much for trying to improve things only to be told zef doesnt support it and is therefore plain wrong
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Zoffix tyil: as I've said, it ain't part of the spec. So yes, it may change, as it's not part of the spec. 20:55
tyil while I don't inherently mind adding it to my meta6 in that case, I also don't really want to play around with unspecced stuff since it can create a backlog of stuff that I now need to change 20:56
I'm not sure on whether I want to document things that aren't specced 20:57
Geth modules.perl6.org: cdb2cf950f | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 9 files
[NEWDB] Implement "repo_url" Field

For CPAN dists, the dist_url just leads to the tarball, which is LTA. The META inside the tarball actually has original, unrewritten META with source URL (potentially) pointing to the GitHub or other repo, so we add a new field to the DB that stores THAT URL as repo_url. If repo_url is not the same as dist_url, show a button on search and
  /dist/ pages that links to "Dist repo".
Also, make /repo/ route direct to repo_url instead of dist_url; Fixes #87 github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/issues/87
tyil if only because everytime I try to go ahead and attempt to fix something I get complaints
Zoffix You could champion the spec and get the stuff actually finalized and specced :)
tyil and how would one start on doing that? 20:59
I have no connections to the spec or know anything about the process things get changed or finalized in
and I'm not aware on a How To Get Spec Stuff Finalized Tutoraal
Zoffix Gather nine, lizmat, ugexe, and mst and say "We gotta finish this stuff. What's blocking it?" There's also a special channel for this stuff: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6-toolchain/2018-04-02 21:01
lizmat in a few weeks we'll have the Perl Toolchain summit: nine lizmat ugexe will be there afaik 21:02
tyil that's something I can work with
lizmat I'll put that on the agenda
tyil thanks lizmat :>
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lizmat thank me if something comes out of that :-) 21:05
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Geth modules.perl6.org: cac74f8c7b | (Zoffix Znet)++ | assets/sass/main.scss
Toss useless `!important` on property
 21:05
tyil I'll give you a warm hug when you come to amsterdam.pm again if you succeed 21:06
it'll only be lukewarm if you fail :(
lizmat hehe.. ok, that's a deal
tyil ^_^
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lizmat if we're going to use more fields in the META6.json, perhaps Test::Meta needs an update / PR's as well 21:34
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Kaiepi i think we really need documentation on what fields go in META6.json, if there isn't any 21:37
tyil Kaiepi: there is 21:38
but its incomplete
Kaiepi yeah, that's the problem i have with it
tyil and I've tried basing my META6 off of S22, but then my module doesnt install anymore
because zef doesnt agree in all cases
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tyil so it's hard to get a good sense of what *is* supported properly 21:39
lizmat well, at the PTS we should decide on what zef supports, and then document it :-)
tyil lizmat: any other fields that will be undergoing discussion at the PTS? 21:44
from the META6?
lizmat I have no idea
I think nine and ugexe have a better idea about that 21:45
tyil ah
I'd like to have the meta-version field in there asap as well, in case we ever have to break backwards compatability with the META6 layout
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Geth modules.perl6.org: 90f155e90c | (Zoffix Znet)++ | lib/ModulesPerl6.pm
Fix perl6-ism
 21:56
timotimo oh, so that's what "smartmatch is experimental" meant there %) 21:57
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Geth modules.perl6.org: 692500a54e | (Zoffix Znet)++ | bin/build-project-list.pl
Throw away unique run handling in Perl script

  - It doesn't forward [NEWDB] marker to next runs if it detects
   a run is already ongoing
  - Move the unique run handling to flocking the cronjob		 22:18
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buggable New CPAN upload: Lingua-Palindrome-0.1.0.tar.gz by FISCHER cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/F/FI/...1.0.tar.gz 22:57
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herby_ o/ 22:58
that new Comma IDE looks awesome 22:59
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