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Set by sorear on 25 June 2013.
tgt Hi. Is there a built-in way to iterate over an array $n elements at a time? 00:00
I know I can use for @a -> $a, $b { }, but then I have to know how many elements I want at a time when I write the code.
Is there a non-destructive version of munch or can I do something like for @a -> @b[$n] { }?
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timotimo there's always while +@array { my @things = @array.shift for ^$how-many-elements; say @things } 00:01
oh, and if you want to non-destructively slice the first $n elements, you can @array[^$n] 00:03
and if you *do* want to slice them off destructively, you can also @array[^$n]:delete
tgt True, thanks. I was hoping there was somethings a little more concise. 00:04
timotimo @array[^$n]:delete is pretty concise, IMO
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tgt I meant more concise than the first bit of code you posted. 00:05
timotimo oh
i understand now :)
tgt Oh wait, that didn't do what I want. 00:06
timotimo oh, i'm not sure if @array[...]:delete will punch holes or remove from the beginning
lizmats advent post should enlighten us :)
lizmat it will, close to publishing 00:08
spoiler: :delete on arrays does *not* remove elemennts, merely assigns Nil to them
lue
.oO(You know your regex library is terrible if the user would've gotten the job done faster without it.)
tgt An example would be I have @a = ^12 and I want to break it into chunks of length 2 or 3 or 4 or 6 or whatever.
lue r: my @a = ^12; for @a { next unless $_ %% 2; say $_ } 00:09
tgt say @a.munch($n) while @a; does what I want, but destructively.
camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«0␤2␤4␤6␤8␤10␤»
lue r: my @a = ^12; for +^@a { next unless $_ %% 2; say @a[$_] } 00:10
camelia ( no output )
lue r: my @a = ^12; for ^+@a { next unless $_ %% 2; say @a[$_] }
camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«0␤2␤4␤6␤8␤10␤»
tgt r: my @a = ^12; say @a.munch(4) while @a;
camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«0 1 2 3␤4 5 6 7␤8 9 10 11␤»
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timotimo we could build a questhub stencil "port a perl6 module to the new S11 meta.info thingie" :D 00:18
lizmat only 20 minutes late: perl6advent.wordpress.com/2013/12/1...-only-way/
diakopter lizmat++ # deliverables 00:19
timotimo yay
woolfy lizmat++ for writing something that I can understand
s/I/even I/ 00:20
" First of all, the “key” of an element in an array, is its index." Wow, I never realised that. Nice. 00:22
timotimo wait 00:23
r: my %h = a=>1, b=>2; say %h<a>:!exists
camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«False␤»
timotimo there's a True in the blogpost there
lizmat checks 00:24
aha, I realize now
there *was* a <b> there, that got eaten
TimToady pointed out there was something missing there
and I assumed it was <a>
but it was <b>
or was it <c> 00:25
whatever, fixing
fixed, timotimo++ for noticing
timotimo :)
here it says that the syntax for hash and array slicing are the same 00:26
but they use {} and [] respectively
is that a mistake or just poorly worded?
lizmat ah, good point
poorly worded
timotimo tgt: in the post you can see that :delete on a list will just assign Nil and leave a hole, so you wouldn't want to do it that wayd 00:27
of course you could then do @array
er 00:28
@array[]:k[^$n], but you probably can't :delete on the second piece there :\
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tgt I don't think I explained what I want very well (or I'm misunderstanding you) 00:29
I've just found List::MoreUtils' natatime, which does what I want, but is for Perl 5.
lizmat timotimo++ should be better worded now
and now off to bed: tomorrow a long day with fitness and emergency social with MJD and Stevan Little 00:31
life is hard :-)
timotimo gnite :) 00:32
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lue r: my @a = 1,2,3; say @a.perl; @a[1]=Nil; say @a.perl 00:37
camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«Array.new(1, 2, 3)␤Array.new(1, Any, 3)␤»
lizmat r: my @a = 1,2,3; say @a.perl; @a[1]=Nil; say @a[]:exists 00:38
camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«Array.new(1, 2, 3)␤True True True␤»
lizmat hmmm
r: my @a is default(42) = 1,2,3; say @a.perl; @a[1]=Nil; say @a.perl 00:39
camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«Array.new(1, 2, 3)␤Array.new(1, 42, 3)␤»
lizmat there are always two more bugs
:-( 00:40
really sleep&
TimToady though, negating :k is kinda useless, as examples go...
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dalek p: 35b9de2 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | src/QRegex/P6Regex/Actions.nqp:
only use charrange for a single, contiguous range

before this patch, it used to ignore single characters, cclasses and erroneously do a range check for ignorecase.		 01:12
[Coke] lizmat - no, I'm fine. (it's for the new GC member) 01:33
and It's already later 01:37
ww
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lue TimToady: do you think my S15ish as it stands is good enough to enter the specs/ repo. or does it need some touchups first? 03:59
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TimToady lue: my standards for initial synopses is much lower than you suppose :) 05:50
I only care how they end up
lue :) 05:52
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moritz \o good morning 06:31
\o/ 3 new HPMoR chapters!
DrEeevil noooo 06:33
stop destroying my productivity :)
moritz don't worry, one is very short. 06:34
DrEeevil lalala can't hear you ;) 06:35
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lue moritz: is the script that generates the HTML forms of the synopses in the mu/ repo? 06:53
Eh, docs/feather/script/update-syn seems to be it.
lue wonders where S26 is handled. 06:55
moritz S26 is handled manually, if at all. 06:56
lue Interesting. 06:58
dalek ecs: 9c555ea | lue++ | S15-unicode.pod:
The addition of S15!

This has been worked on for a few days now, and it would seem at this point it's better to let everyone have edit access than to keep the control to myself.
Original gist, which contains a slight bit of revision history for the file: gist.github.com/lue/7761244
Of note is that this spec is in Pod6, because that's the version of Pod I'm familiar with, I can't be bothered to convert to a far less familiar POD at the moment, and frankly the specs should be in Pod6 in the first place :) .		 07:02
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dalek : 85f3e0c | lue++ | docs/feather/syn_index.html:
[feather] Add S15 links to the Synopses index.

Note that the HTML-ified synopsis link is not guaranteed to work at the moment, it's just placed there for completeness' sake.		 07:07
lue It's getting a bit late to write a blog post about this :/ . I think I'll save that for tomorrow. 07:10
♘ all o/
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lizmat good *, #perl6 08:38
FROGGS morning lizmat 08:40
lizmat FROGGS o/
FROGGS lizmat++ # nice post :o) 08:41
lizmat thank you, although a bit factual incorrect wrt to Nil assignment 08:43
FROGGS O.o 08:44
lizmat p: my @a=^5; @a[3]:delete; @a[4]=Nil; say @a[]:exists # expecting True True True False False 08:47
camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«True True True False True␤»
FROGGS : my @a=^5; @a[3]:delete; @a[4]=Nil; say @a[]
p: my @a=^5; @a[3]:delete; @a[4]=Nil; say @a[]
camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«0 1 2 (Any) (Any)␤»
lizmat the issue there is that assigning Nil to a container, deep in the bowels of Rakudo, assigns the default value 08:48
whereas :delete binds the element to nqp::null
FROGGS ahh, I remember
lizmat on reading the element, the nqp::null case obtains the default value from the container description 08:49
whereas in the Nil case, it's already in the container
both have pros and cons
I'm not sure why assigning Nil would not also just bind to nqp::null, other than lack of tuits
and the fact that assigning Nil is handled in VM specific C-code, and :delete lives in Perl 6 land 08:50
FROGGS *nod*
lizmat the blog post did make me realize we need at least one more (internal) adverb: :VOID 08:54
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lizmat in combination with :delete 08:54
or maybe :SINK would be better
if a slice :delete is done in sink context, it wouldn't need to make the return value(s) 08:55
an optimizer could add the :SINK adverb in such a case
and add a warning if any of the other adverbs were specified (which wouldn't make sense then) 08:56
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FROGGS yeah 09:02
hoelzro good morning #perl6 09:03
FROGGS hi hoelzro 09:04
hoelzro ahoy FROGGS
tadzik hey hey 09:08
hoelzro: did you get your Jolla phone already?
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hoelzro tadzik: not yet =( 09:12
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tadzik and SteamOS will come out tomorrow 09:16
hoelzro omg
tadzik exciting times
hoelzro don't remind me
I'm just sad I didn't get into the beta
tadzik yeah :/
hoelzro are you playing Starbound with timotimo at all?
tadzik the chance was infinitesimal anyway 09:17
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tadzik don't have Starbound, no 09:17
hoelzro I was thinking of giving it a try
looks cool
tadzik hm, I never gave more than 7€ for a game :) 09:18
like, any game, ever :P
hoelzro heh 09:19
15 *does* seem a bit steep
moritz has spent lots of money on non-computer games
hoelzro we could always do L4D2
tadzik I hope that SteamOS release will also mark releases of some long-wanted volvo games
like Portal 2, esp. since it was in the controller presentations
we should do L4D2 anyway :)
hoelzro this weekend? 09:20
f yes
tadzik I'm free any evening but on saturday, basically
DrEeevil SteamOS will be fun to reverse-engineer
tadzik I don't think there'll be anything interesting about it
maybe aside from some miracle gamepad driver that's not completely broken
moritz just a linux distro with some custom UI
tadzik hoelzro: well, 15 is "Early Access" 09:21
every "indie" game these days is Early Access though
DrEeevil moritz: so take out the interesting parts and integrate it in other distros properly
much more fun :)
tadzik something else than a steam client and grub theme? :P 09:22
well, maybe 09:23
we'll know soon enough
moritz: I don't have problems with spending money on physical copies of stuff, like board games
but buying something on steam, with all the DRM is just paying for a right to play a game, with no way to lend it to a friend or whatnot 09:24
hoelzro hmm
tadzik: Friday *might* work
I have to get L4D2 working on my laptop again =/
that, or boot into Windows =( 09:25
tadzik it works really well on mine
DrEeevil I have no windows, so that's no longer an option
tadzik and it's an intel gpu :)
hoelzro hmm
tadzik (and linux, yep)
hoelzro I've been using my nvidia card (I have an optimus card)
I've been seeing odd behavior the last week
complaining about OpenGL not working
tadzik hrm 09:26
hoelzro unfortunately, I've been out of the house all week, and today I have Russian class =/
so tomorrow evening I'll try to fix it
tadzik no hurry
hoelzro well, next week I go home to the US for Christmas, so time zones will make things difficult =P 09:29
tadzik and latency :)
we can do sunday maybe, if you can't make it by friday 09:30
hoelzro that's true 09:31
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timotimo ohai 11:10
Ulti updated his module to be 11 compliant :P
timotimo \o/
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nwc10 is eleven called eleven because it's named after the date of the advent post? 11:16
tadzik that and S11 :)
nwc10 aha
perl 6 numerology
FROGGS Ulti++ 11:19
tadzik I should do that with mine :)
and this is the point at which we may want a META.info helper, so one does not have to list all those things manually
maybe I should update Module::Starter
timotimo hehe 11:22
good idea
can Module::Starter also update existing META.info files?
tadzik no reason to not make it so :) 11:23
although it wouldn't be a starter then
timotimo well, a car, for example, is started many times 11:24
tadzik true :) 11:25
timotimo tests specs 11:27
it's always painful to see the spectests succeed on clean nom and random failures interspersed on your own branch \: 11:31
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timotimo how do i cause the segfault o_O 11:48
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timotimo jnthn: i just spotted :foo turns into callmethod("new", var(lexical, "Pair"), ...); would it make sense to inspect lexical Var's in the optimizer to turn them into WVal if they are classes like that? maybe by inspecting if they are readonly or something? 11:53
moritz timotimo: will that behave the same if somebody lexically overrides class Pair? 11:55
timotimo: and will it actually be any faster?
tadzik will :foo create the lexically overrode Pair? 11:56
r: my class Pair { method new { die } }; my $a = :foo; say 'alive' 11:57
camelia rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«␤ in block at /tmp/X2gPTs2ABN:1␤ in any eval at gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1086␤ in any evalfiles at gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1292␤ in any command_eval at gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1196␤ in any command_eval at src/Perl6/Compiler.nqp:17␤␤»
..rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«␤ in method new at /tmp/rI32d856nL:1␤ in block at /tmp/rI32d856nL:1␤ in any at /tmp/rI32d856nL:1␤ in any at gen/parrot/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1146␤ in any eval at gen/parrot/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1133␤ in any evalfiles at gen/parrot/stage2/NQ…»
moritz r: class MyPair is Pair { }; say (:foo).^name
camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«Pair␤»
timotimo moritz: yeah, lexical overrides will easily be spotted by the optimizer 11:58
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moritz r: constant MyPair = Pair; my class Pair is MyPair { method special { say "look, I'm special } }); (:foo).special 11:58
camelia rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/cTznO_wOd0␤Unable to parse expression in double quotes; couldn't find final '"' ␤at /tmp/cTznO_wOd0:1␤------> "look, I'm special } }); (:foo).special⏏<EOL>␤ expecting…»
..rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/SBulbTjIEz␤Unable to parse expression in double quotes; couldn't find final '"' ␤at /tmp/SBulbTjIEz:1␤------> "look, I'm special } }); (:foo).special⏏<EOL>␤ expect…»
moritz r: constant MyPair = Pair; my class Pair is MyPair { method special { say "look, I'm special" } }); (:foo).special 11:59
camelia rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/7hUSv83wLa␤Unexpected closing bracket␤at /tmp/7hUSv83wLa:1␤------> od special { say "look, I'm special" } }⏏); (:foo).special␤»
..rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/AwUqyXuufv␤Unexpected closing bracket␤at /tmp/AwUqyXuufv:1␤------> od special { say "look, I'm special" } }⏏); (:foo).special␤»
tadzik );
moritz r: constant MyPair = Pair; my class Pair is MyPair { method special { say "look, I'm special" } }; (:foo).special
camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«look, I'm special␤»
moritz rakudo++ # much better error messages than a year ago
FROGGS yeah, rakudo grows up :o) 12:00
moritz I could also say Ronja++ # much better error messages than a year ago :-) 12:02
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tadzik haha 12:06
FROGGS Ronja++ # :o) 12:13
hoelzro hmm 12:14
I expected this to *not* print anything:
FROGGS there is nothing after the colon^^
hoelzro my %h = :foo(1), :bar(2); say 'hi' if all(%h<foo bar baz>:exists)
why is 'hi' printed?
timotimo r: my %h = :foo(1), :bar(2); say all(%h<foo bar baz>:exists) 12:15
camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«all(True True False)␤»
timotimo r: my %h = :foo(1), :bar(2); say so all(%h<foo bar baz>:exists)
camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«True␤»
timotimo r: my %h = :foo(1), :bar(2); say so all(|%h<foo bar baz>:exists)
camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«False␤»
timotimo the all has a single argument, which is a parcel of three values
so :exists doesn't return a proper list
FROGGS p: my %h = :foo(1), :bar(2); say [&&] %h<foo bar baz>:exists 12:16
camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«True True False␤»
FROGGS p: my %h = :foo(1), :bar(2); say [&&] @(%h<foo bar baz>:exists)
camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«False␤»
hoelzro I see
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lizmat :exists is specced to return a Parcel 12:55
if more than one key is requested or not known at compile time
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dalek kudo/nom: 02af63a | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (3 files):
Implement (hidden) :SINK attribute on slices

The idea being that te optimizer will add this when it sees a :delete being done in sink context.		 13:10
lizmat commute to Emergency Social &
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liztormato Arrived at the Old Bell 15:38
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[Coke] has a sick kid pickup from school, which morphs my day into a "burn a personal day before they expire", which means I have the day to work on my article. serendipity, thanks to a puking kid. 15:44
colomon errr… puking++ ? 15:45
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[Coke] thankfully, she seems fine now. 15:47
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hoelzro liztormato: the old bell? like the one downstairs? 15:47
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liztormato Yes 15:47
hoelzro nice =)
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moritz wishes [Coke]'s kid a quick recovery 15:48
liztormato Emergency social in honor of stevan little and hopefully MJD
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moritz woah 15:49
moritz would love to meet both of them
liztormato [Coke]: Best wishes for a speedy recovery 15:50
moritz: So do we ;-)
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hoelzro moar recovery wishes for [Coke]'s child! 15:51
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[Coke] Thanks, folks. 16:15
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lizmat_ Socializing& 16:21
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[Coke] colomon: any pointers/docs on your daily ecosystem tests? 16:39
japhb: any pointers/docs on your benchmark tests?
(or anyone else.)
colomon [Coke]: not really. we should probably get a real URL for them at some point, instead of just pointing to the current IP of my cable modem. 16:41
[Coke] If I ever get my modified smoke server up and running, using it for the module tests would be reasonable. 16:44
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[Coke] brain dump of notes gets me 750 words for upcoming post. 17:01
jnthn wonders if the 750 words fell out in sentences, or just 750 random words :) 17:03
TimToady if we were still moderns, we wouldn't care :) 17:04
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jnthn bah, I read that as "still modems" first time... 17:05
jnthn will have some tuits at the weekend o/
And Wed/Thu next week, it seems :)
japhb jnthn: \o/ 17:06
[Coke]: What are you looking for, exactly?
[Coke] anyone have pointer to pmichaud's note about how the spec is really roast, moreso than the syn? 17:08
japhb: anything I can use to add a sentence to my upcoming blog post.
japhb [Coke]: Well, what's the subject? 17:09
(Of your post)
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jnthn dinner & 17:12
japhb is looking at the traffic jam outside and estimating the chance that he will make it through before the breakfast joints close ... rather poor, it appears. 17:14
timotimo roasting perl6
moritz huh, the irclog search doesn't seem to find recent pmichaud statements
maybe there's something wrong with the indexer
timotimo conspiracy!
TimToady shh!
japhb timotimo: Were you answering for [Coke] ? 17:15
moritz runs the cron jobs manually
timotimo yes
moritz huh, irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/search/?ni...;q=traffic finds the utterance from a few minutes ago 17:16
timotimo moritz: could you supply me a compressed tarball of all the days in #perl6 where my nick appears? :3 17:17
japhb timotimo, thnaks.
timotimo your wlecome
japhb
.oO( Oh no! We're being chased by a herd of thnaks! )
 17:18
moritz timotimo: not trivially through the IR clogs, but should be pretty easy by grepping my irrsi's logs 17:19
timotimo moritz: can't you grep the html files?
japhb [Coke]: I'd say just point to the github repo. The machine that has the presentation on it is at home, so I can't grab it for you. :-(
17:19 sqirrel_ joined
moritz timotimo: there are no html files :-) 17:19
timotimo: the pages are generated on-th-fly
japhb Also note that several other users appear to be using it (every so often someone asks me about it, or wants to know if I accept PR's -- YES, btw.) 17:20
timotimo oh
japhb I would really like to see more benchmarks added, and I have a backlog of features I'd like to add. 17:21
[Coke] japhb: url for lazycoke?
17:22 jnap joined
japhb I'm just spending all of my Perl 6 time on p6-pb lately, as I'd really like to push that to completion 17:22
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japhb [Coke]: github.com/japhb/perl6-bench 17:22
[Coke] 950 words... 17:26
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japhb [Coke]: Go for an even 2 ** 10. :-) 17:27
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[Coke] anyone have a link to patrick saying that the spec tests are the spec? 17:28
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[Coke] gist.github.com/coke/7932300 - prepost of the 13th article. 17:50
feedback definitely welcome.
timotimo hahaha, epic line break
"When is Perl 6 going to be Ready? We get this question a lot in the Perl 6 community, and the answer is never"
"as simple as we or the inquirers would like." 17:51
[Coke] AHAHAHAH
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retupmoca huh, planetsix.perl.org gives a 503 error 17:52
TimToady r: say so all( (True,True,False) ); # should say False because a parcel flattens in list context
[Coke] I will let it percolate for a bit and come back in a while to do more edits.
camelia rakudo-parrot 02af63, rakudo-jvm 02af63: OUTPUT«False␤»
[Coke] planetsix is dying, yes.
I thought I'd have a little more time before they pulled the plug. 17:53
PerlJam [Coke]: reading ...
timotimo TimToady: someone should write a spectest for that! :)
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TimToady r: my %h = :foo(1), :bar(2); say so all(%h<foo bar baz>:exists) 17:54
[Coke] use planeteria.org/perl6/
camelia rakudo-parrot 02af63, rakudo-jvm 02af63: OUTPUT«True␤»
timotimo [Coke]: can you make a direct link to the line of the daily runs that shows when rakudo/jvm surpassed rakudo/parrot?
retupmoca are they actually pulling the plug on planetsix? Why?
[Coke] timotimo yes, but it'l only be good for one day :)
TimToady r: my %h = :foo(1), :bar(2); say (%h<foo bar baz>:exists).WHAT
camelia rakudo-parrot 02af63, rakudo-jvm 02af63: OUTPUT«(Parcel)␤»
timotimo [Coke]: oh! you're right of course
TimToady so why isn't that flattening?
17:54 TimK1 joined
[Coke] retupmoca: it's been coming for over a year. 17:54
timotimo well, you could link the commit when you added that line, that makes it a bit more sensible, i think 17:55
[Coke] there are plenty of other places to host such a beast and the admins only have so many resources
TimToady r: my %h = :foo(1), :bar(2); say so all %h<foo bar baz>:exists
camelia rakudo-parrot 02af63, rakudo-jvm 02af63: OUTPUT«True␤»
retupmoca fair enough
it just surprised me
TimToady r: my %h = :foo(1), :bar(2); say so all (%h<foo bar baz>:exists,) 17:56
[Coke] (you can tell it was old news because the other link was already out there. ;)
camelia rakudo-parrot 02af63, rakudo-jvm 02af63: OUTPUT«True␤»
timotimo [Coke]++ # good advent calendar post
[Coke] *kermit arm flail*
timotimo d'aaw :) 17:58
PerlJam [Coke]++ what timotimo said. :-)
TimToady r: my %h = :foo(1), :bar(2); say so all (%h<foo bar baz>:exists).list
camelia rakudo-parrot 02af63, rakudo-jvm 02af63: OUTPUT«False␤»
TimToady so, yeah, rakudobug 17:59
lizmat: ^^
PerlJam [Coke]: you might want to add an aside about why it's called "roast"
(anticipating questions from the non-#perl6ers)
timotimo oh yeah, good point 18:00
it's because it's there to torture the implementors, right?
like, they roast in spec hell?
TimToady ooh, yeah, terrible linebreak on the first line :) 18:03
"the answer is never"
timotimo i vote we introduce a linebreak in the advent calendar markup, so that it stays that way
[Coke] I feel like I should add "TL;DR - we like testing, but are too cheap/lazy to have CI"
timotimo that's just too funny not to keep
[Coke] I assumed roast was related to smolder and smoke 18:04
TimToady people who use hyphens instead of dashes... 18:05
timotimo ah, ok
so where do smolder and smoke come from? that's some traditional perl thing? :)
TimToady ancient hardware testing slang 18:06
"smoke test"
as in "let the magic smoke out when the voltage melts your circuit"
timotimo ooooh, yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense
18:08 fhelmberger left
jnap timotimo: you must be young, doing the smoke test at full power after you do all the wiring and checking is time honored tradition :) 18:08
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timotimo yeah, i am kind of young 18:09
i didn't get into electronics properly until a pretty late age
TimToady [Coke]: wants some graphs :)
timotimo and even now i'm not that into it
TimToady yes "smoke test" means full-up testing 18:10
jnap I used to do stereo repair on old stuff, always want to make time to get back to it, but software is my work so… maybe when I get to retire :)
TimToady we just put the whole thing together, and now we're going to assume everything will work as designed :)
[Coke] (graphs) can I store images in wordpress, or do I have to host them externally? 18:12
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timotimo i think there's an "upload image" button in the edit form? 18:12
18:13 xenoterracide left
timotimo yeah, "add media" allows you to upload stuff 18:13
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TimToady Repo Of All Spec Tests was the first gloss, though of course other backronyms are allowed 18:17
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timotimo aaw. i ran a pvmove that did nothing at all ... 18:18
except take time
r: say "took {2 * 100 / 60) minutes of my precious, precious, otherwise wasted time" 18:19
camelia rakudo-jvm 02af63: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/RUZQ5nw8uB␤Unable to parse expression in block; couldn't find final '}' ␤at /tmp/RUZQ5nw8uB:1␤------> say "took {2 * 100 / 60⏏) minutes of my precious, precious, othe␤ …»
..rakudo-parrot 02af63: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/dKD4vaXa1_␤Unable to parse expression in block; couldn't find final '}' ␤at /tmp/dKD4vaXa1_:1␤------> say "took {2 * 100 / 60⏏) minutes of my precious, precious, othe␤…»
timotimo p: say "took {2 * 100 / 60} minutes of my precious, precious, otherwise wasted time"
camelia rakudo-parrot 02af63: OUTPUT«took 3.333333 minutes of my precious, precious, otherwise wasted time␤»
timotimo that doesn't seem right
moritz why not?
timotimo because it took a lot longer than that 18:20
~4 minutes gave me ~12 percent
oh well. this time it'll be faster, because i only move a part of the partition earlier
oh, actually, i could do this much smarter
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raiph do i read right that jnthn recently landed changes that sped the spectest up by a whopping 10% for lizmat on at least one backend? 18:27
timotimo i think that's accurate, yeah 18:28
was that the invokedynamic changes? 18:29
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raiph timotimo: thx. (and if it's the jvm then that maybe masks a much bigger improvement if one eliminates startup time) 18:35
18:36 dmol joined
raiph (hmm. maybe spectesting is done in a way that avoids restarts?) 18:38
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[Coke] raiph - yes. 18:44
make spectest uses the eval server.
raiph [Coke]: thx
[Coke] .. assuming that works for you. may not, mine kept running out of memory.
18:46 dmol left
TimK1 I posted the slides for the talk I gave this week at Boston.PM: Benchmarking Perl 6: How Ready for Prime Time Is It? j.mp/1cDRj5d (Thanks to japhb for his benchmarking framework.) 18:46
Sorry wrong link. Ugh. 18:47
I posted the slides for the talk I gave this week at Boston.PM: Benchmarking Perl 6: How Ready for Prime Time Is It? j.mp/1fnGOmN (Thanks to japhb for his benchmarking framework.)
raiph TimK1: r u sure that's the right link? 18:48
heh
timotimo raiph: we already skip a lot of startup time on the spectests for jvm by using the evalserver 18:49
hey TimK1 :)
i've been spamming your blog with comments :)
have you considered trying out niecza? it fits your "i just need a subset of perl6 to be productive with" mentality pretty well and usually outperforms rakudo by a *large* margin 18:50
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moritz TimK1++ 18:55
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TimK1 timotimo: I did some experimenting with Niecza. (Had some trouble getting it running on my more powerful iMac, and gave up for lack of time.) Might be a cool experiment to compare P5 with Niecza. 18:58
colomon What sort of problems did you have getting to work on the iMac? It's fine on my MBP. 19:01
TimK1 I got it to work on my older Mac laptop (running Snow Leopard, if you can believe that). I got some sort of strange error running mono on my newer iMac (running Mavericks). I don't know whether it was a problem with Mono, or something else. Didn't have time to dig into it. 19:02
… But if there's real interest in it, I'll try to make time (maybe tomorrow) to give it another go, and take some more detailed notes at least.
colomon TimK1: … dunno that I'd call it real interest, I'm just wondering what the problem could be. 19:04
TimK1 AFAIK, it could be Mavericks. Or the way I installed it. (I was using the MacPorts distribution of Mono on the iMac, and now that I double-check, it seems I didn't on the old laptop.) 19:06
I was a little taken aback Tuesday by the strong desire I sensed for P6 to arrive, and the underlying belief that it could offer an aspect of salvation for Perl's image. Dunno myself about that last part, but I did get the sense that people have not given up yet about P6. 19:07
japhb_ That's good at least. 19:08
Congrats on doing the talk, I'll take a look at it. :-)
moritz this channel is full of people who haven't given up on p6 :-) 19:09
TimK1 :) 19:10
japhb_ Ooh, [Coke], TimK1++'s blog listed a video of my perl6-bench talk: www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5sSuL9OueE
I had forgotten it was recorded!
colomon TimK1: hmmm, I think I gave up on MacPorts and installed a mono binary package. 19:11
[Coke] if someone could open ticket with the admins for the gateway error here: www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.language 19:12
japhb_: danke
lue hello world! o/ 19:16
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PerlJam P6 is going to salvage Perl's image?!? What an odd thought. 19:18
japhb_ TimK1, Read the slide deck. Looks like it was quite an interesting talk, can't wait for the version with sound. :-)
TimK1, Also: You guys made a lot of commits in your fork! PR's, pretty please? :-) 19:20
TimK1 PerlJam: Maybe I'm misunderstanding the sentiment. IIRC no one actually used those words. But I did get the sense from one person that P6 at least couldn't be bad for Perl's image.
japhb_: Thanks.
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TimK1 I need to go through the commits and pick out ones that might be good candidates for PR's. It's on my list. 19:20
japhb_ Excellent, thank you! 19:21
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raiph has anyone used p6bench to compare between now and a decent while ago (a year?) for any backend? 19:25
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timotimo excuse the offtopic question, but ... how do i resize a partition in linux? gparted refuses to touch it, because it's a cryptsetup container and cfdisk and fdisk apparently only allow me to change sectors of the whole disk or something :( 19:30
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japhb_ raiph, I had been doing those for a little while, but rapidly discovered a problem: syntax (both spec'ed and implemented) changed just often enough that the same tests wouldn't run on both old and new. 19:33
raiph ah
japhb_ Sadly, because so much of the changes over the last year made big improvements to perl6-bench and the test suite, you can't just roll it back to a year ago, run some tests and save the output, then roll forward, test again, and compare. The test data wouldn't be comparable (or even close) 19:35
Mind you, there might be some value to features added to perl6-bench to support manually specifying a map of different versions of the tests to the compiler revs they'll work on. 19:36
But that seems like a lot of work for potentially small benefit going forward.
(I'd certainly consider a PR for it, as long as the design was decent -- but I'm not sure I'll get around to coding that myself.) 19:37
The other problem is that because of performance problems, some older versions of Rakudo would go completely off the deep end running even a modestly sized tests. At some point, with those major issues fixed, I had to change all of the test scaling. 19:38
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japhb_ If you run one of those old Rakudoes with modern test scaling, you'd OOM your box or pin your CPU for a couple days, most likely. 19:38
timotimo mhh, partitioning 19:40
scary business
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raiph japhb_: thx 19:41
dwarring here's my idea for an advent post gist.github.com/dwarring/7848868 19:42
it's a basic grammar for a card game
one simple code assertion fto check for duplicate cards
that's it! 19:43
feedback welcome
timotimo "locally scoped" isn't the name we usually use for things with the * twigil
japhb_ raiph, For what it's worth, I've wanted to do an "Are We Fast Yet?" clone for Perl 6 implementations for quite a while. Maybe the time is finally right for writing that. :-) 19:44
[Coke] day 13 moved to preview on wordpress: perl6advent.wordpress.com/?p=2011&a...eview=true - moved all urls to links, defined-ish roast, found patrick quote, think I've got everything except pretty graphs.
raiph could i get a login to the advent? 19:45
[Coke] raiph: gist.github.com/coke/7932300 in the meantime. 19:46
(no formatting)
raiph [Coke]: thx
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TimK1 BTW, in my tests, I saw no significant performance differences in Rakudo/NQP since 2013.05. We assumed that most of the differences were features & bug fixes (IIRC true), and there's just not much work yet being done on optimization. 19:48
Three Rakudo programs:
r: module A { use Test; diag("Foo!") } # should respond with Foo!
camelia rakudo-parrot 02af63, rakudo-jvm 02af63: OUTPUT«# Foo!␤»
TimK1 r: module B { use Test <diag>; diag("Foo?") } # should still respond with Foo?
camelia rakudo-parrot 02af63, rakudo-jvm 02af63: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Error while importing from 'Test': no EXPORT sub, but you provided positional argument in the 'use' statement␤»
TimK1 r: module C { need Test; Test::diag("Foo?!") } # Why do module authors do this to me?!
camelia rakudo-jvm 02af63: OUTPUT«Could not find symbol '&diag'␤ in any find_method_fallback at gen/jvm/Metamodel.nqp:2607␤ in any find_method at gen/jvm/Metamodel.nqp:945␤ in any at gen/jvm/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1658␤ in block at /tmp/f1IUDB7cY3:1␤ in any eval at gen/jvm/stage2/NQ…»
..rakudo-parrot 02af63: OUTPUT«Could not find symbol '&diag'␤ in method <anon> at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:12062␤ in any at gen/parrot/Metamodel.nqp:2691␤ in any find_method_fallback at gen/parrot/Metamodel.nqp:2679␤ in any find_method at gen/parrot/Metamodel.nqp:946␤ i…»
TimK1 Shouldn't module B work? Is this a Rakudo bug? 19:49
WRT module C, Test declares diag as "sub diag is export"; so if I import it into my namespace, then I can use it, but if I don't then I can't even see that it's there. It seems to me, the best practice should be always to use "our" with "is export" (which would make almost every extant P6 module "broken").
timotimo i believe with "need" you have to supply a list of all the names you want to have
and i think you have to write use Test <&diag> in B
dwarring has another look at twigels
japhb_ TimK1, For most of that time, there have been some improvements, but they've been more specific than general. The most general sizable performance boost was very recent: an improvement to JVM InvokeDynamic use that netted us about 10% in rakudo-jvm. 19:50
TimK1 r: module B { use Test <&diag>; diag("Foo?") } # should still respond with Foo? 19:51
camelia rakudo-parrot 02af63, rakudo-jvm 02af63: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Error while importing from 'Test': no EXPORT sub, but you provided positional argument in the 'use' statement␤»
dwarring *tiwigels '*' = dynamically scoped
TimK1 For my examples, I'm using the guidance in perlcabal.org/syn/S11.html#Compile-...mportation 19:52
timotimo TimK1: i'm spending most of my rakudo development time on making little things here and there faster, but it's usually not showing up in the general benchmarks i'm afraid :(
for example, as you noticed, junctions are slow. that's why if you have a piece of code like $x & $y == -1 | 0 | 1, it'll unfold one of the two junctions at compile-time 19:53
TimK1 timotimo: That makes sense. Not a criticism. Just an observation. I expect there's still a ways to go.
japhb_ TimK1, TBH probably the biggest push to get across-the-board performance boost is the work on rakudo-moarvm, which is just past the "Hello World in Perl 6" stage. 19:54
timotimo there's a lot of things yet to do, that's right
japhb_ (Which means that it's already compiling the setting, which is huge, actually.)
.oO( [Optimization] Target Rich Environment )
 19:55
lue [Coke]: "The answer is never \n as simple" at the beginning: stylistic choice or mistake? 19:58
[Coke]++ for the post
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lue dwarring: "5 exactly cards" --> "exactly 5 cards", and I'm pretty sure it's the 'my' that makes it lexically scoped, not the * twigil. 20:05
dwarring: I think it's good enough for an advent post. :) 20:06
dwarring snoopy dance
timotimo TimK1: if you have ideas for specific optimisations, i'm all ears. until then, you can check out and comment on what i've been planning to do on questhub.io/player/timo (comment via irc if you don't want to sign up for questhub) 20:08
phew. i resized my two partitions that are each a crypto container that are inside an LVM that is inside a PV that is inside a crypto container and can now move data to and from the disk 20:09
pretty suspenseful
lue oh hej blog post! : rdstar.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/a-b...-spec-s15/ 20:10
timotimo yay
20:15 telex left
dwarring lue: tried changing %*PLAYED to %PLAYED 20:16
20:16 telex joined
dwarring lue: ...get Variable '%PLAYED' is not declared in card token 20:16
lue dwarring: I'm not an expert on $* vars, much less in regexes. Ignore my statements on them :D 20:17
(and I never said you had to change the code, just the explanation. But again, ignore that suggestion, as I am not an expert.)
dalek : 92a5330 | (David Warring)++ | misc/perl6advent-2013/schedule:
Update schedule
 20:19
dwarring that's day 18 i"ve grabbed
can someone give me access to that wordpress thingo? 20:20
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timotimo if you have the post ready-for-publishing earlier, you can emergency-publish your post if someone can't make it to their day 20:20
dwarring timotimo: should be ok, I'll get going on a wordpress writeup 20:21
timotimo nice! :)
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dwarring i'll keep an eye on the irc 20:24
[Coke] TimToady: perl6advent.wordpress.com/?p=2011&a...eview=true now has one, lonely chart. 20:26
TimToady \o/ 20:27
[Coke] to spite you, I made it using excel.
(warning: contains no actual spite)
how do I set to publish in the future(future, future) 20:28
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[Coke] oh, by realizing that the 12 is the MONTH, not the day. 20:31
ok. it's scheduled.
lizmat++ for prodding me to write one this year. 20:32
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dwarring just gets Cokes 70's reference 20:36
dwarring or sees one at least 'time keeps on slipping...' 20:37
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japhb_ dwarring, That song forms the key turning point in a major battle in a 1983 fantasy novel, Alan Dean Foster's "Spellsinger" 20:41
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perigrin japhb_: lotta songs fit that bill 20:49
I can't listen to Purple Haze without thinking about an overly large affectionate otter. 20:50
(or Sloop John B for that matter)
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timotimo TimK1: i have a richards benchmark in nqp, but not in perl5. would you like to port that some day? 21:17
japhb If I get a vote, it's "Yes, please!" 21:18
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timotimo :) 21:20
42 gigs per hour ... makes about 3.75h for my 155gb and then another 1 hour for the remaining 30g + 2g :\ 21:21
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pippo Hello Perl6! 21:40
my %h; %h.push(:one(1)); say %h;
r: my %h; %h.push(:one(1)); say %h; 21:41
camelia rakudo-parrot 02af63, rakudo-jvm 02af63: OUTPUT«().hash␤»
pippo houldnt this be equivalent to this:
r: my %h; %h.push('one'=>1); say %h;
camelia rakudo-parrot 02af63, rakudo-jvm 02af63: OUTPUT«("one" => 1).hash␤»
jnthn back 21:42
pippo: Well, the obvious difference is that the first is a named argument and the second is a positional argument that's a pair. 21:43
pippo: As to what push should do in this case - not sure off hand... 21:44
pippo r: :one(1).WHAT
camelia ( no output )
pippo r: ; :one(1).WHAT 21:45
camelia ( no output )
pippo r: say :one(1).WHAT 21:46
camelia rakudo-parrot 02af63, rakudo-jvm 02af63: OUTPUT«(Pair)␤»
pippo jnthn: I also do not know. I tend to expect having the same result. 21:48
lue jnthn: note that this is the second time recently where Hashes were expected to handle colonpairs in a positional fashion :)
r: my %h; %h.push((:one(1))); say %h 21:49
camelia rakudo-parrot 02af63, rakudo-jvm 02af63: OUTPUT«("one" => 1).hash␤»
21:49 spider-mario left
pippo lue: that is the correct syntax? 21:49
lue pippo: ^^^ is a way to do it, if you insist on the colonpair syntax.
jnthn lue: What was the other one?
jnthn has been very distracted recently :) 21:50
lue jnthn: me, trying to construct a hash with Hash.new
pippo: yeah, because colonpairs are interpreted as named arguments, while the fatarrow is just another positional parameter. The extra () forces the colonpair to be passed as a positional. 21:51
r: say Hash.new(a=>1).perl;
camelia rakudo-parrot 02af63, rakudo-jvm 02af63: OUTPUT«().hash␤»
lue jnthn: I get the sense that Hashes + named params tends to be awkward :) 21:52
jnthn lue: They are rather... 21:53
pippo lue, jnthn: OK. Thank you very much.
lue pippo: The general takeaway is to be careful with passing literal Pairs to a Hash method :) 21:54
r: my %h; my $a = :one(1); %h.push($a); say %h.perl
camelia rakudo-parrot 02af63, rakudo-jvm 02af63: OUTPUT«("one" => 1).hash␤»
21:55 bluescreen10 left
jnthn We should probably do something about this, given it breaks the pols 21:56
lue jnthn: yeah, my one hangup is if any Hash methods in the future want to use actual named parameters, what to do then. (e.g. some sort of Hash.push(:$twice) param or something) 21:57
jnthn Yeah... 21:58
That's why it's not obvious to Just Fix It...
pippo I understand the concern now. 21:59
good night lue and jnthn and thank you for clarifying. 22:00
22:00 pippo left 22:01 kaare__ left
lue r: my %h; %h.push: :one(1); say %h 22:01
camelia rakudo-parrot 02af63, rakudo-jvm 02af63: OUTPUT«().hash␤»
lue jnthn: the good solutions I see are to either A) completely change how named parameter arguments xor Pairs are made, or B) require users to use an extra layer of parens around positionally-destined Pairs. 22:03
lue sees that there's a general issue of sub foo(Pair $a) type functions, but this happens to show up in Hash methods more often than elsewhere. 22:04
22:05 Alina-malina left 22:06 Alina-malina joined 22:11 xenoterracide joined 22:12 FROGGS[mobile] left
lue wonders if some sort of positional/named divider would be a good or bad idea... foo(1, :pos<pair>, 3; :actual<param>) 22:13
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[Coke] n: say 6 23:18
camelia niecza v24-108-g17d73e4: OUTPUT«(timeout)[auto-compiling setting]␤»
[Coke] bah. 23:22
raiph [Coke]: "Every language feature must have a spec test." s/a spec test/spec test(s)/? 23:35
"Over the course of Perl 6′s developments" s/development/development/ 23:37
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raiph "their new tes works" 23:38
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raiph "that particular feature or Synopses." -> Synopsis 23:39
[Coke] "Every language feature must have corresponding spec tests." ; fixed, "their new tests work" 23:40
fixed. 23:41
(all in the wordpress)
raiph "provides a nice interface for viewing the CSV data"
[Coke] raiph++
raiph presumably a link to that
[Coke] it's linked in the wordpress, aye. 23:42
raiph should i keep reading the gist?
[Coke] I only just fixed them. I'll do one more paste for you. 23:43
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[Coke] gist.github.com/coke/7932300 23:43
raiph k, reading
[Coke] tries to figure out which 70s reference I made. 23:45
raiph "each change in the Synopses text " -> Synopses' text 23:46
(maybe; nit at most)
"the prose; because they are concrete code – if you" # drop the ; 23:48
[Coke] I believe the first is allowed stylistically, leaving it.
went with "prose," 23:49
japhb_ WTH? In the Rakudo debugger, it looks to me like a regex /^ \d / is trying to *scan* ...? 23:50
raiph "moment (And" period after moment ?
japhb_ jnthn: Any idea why this would happen? ^^
[Coke] period after parenthetical. fixed. 23:51
added a : after "things like"
raiph ok, read it thru. [Coke]++ # great post :) 23:52
japhb_ Any regex engine folks, run this and wonder: 23:53
perl6-debug -e 'given "abcdefg" { when /^ \d / { say "digit seen at start" } }'
(Just press enter a bunch of times to see it) 23:54
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