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Set by sorear on 25 June 2013.
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Mouq jnthn++ 00:01
yoleaux 14 Aug 2014 17:08Z <jnthn> Mouq: MoarVM HEAD fixes the htmlify grapheme iter crash
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rurban I had to read a lot of wrong things about parrot here .2013-02-07#i_6423589 on reddit. First parrot threading is better than moar threading. No blocking, it scales linearily. Second, parrot is actively being maintained. 00:09
Missing async and signals is a good point though 00:10
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Mouq What's missing to make "LoL" a + on perl6.org/compilers/features ? 00:36
m: my @a = [ [5,3], [6,2] ]; @a[*;1] = @a[*;0] X+ 1; say @a.perl 00:37
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«Array.new([[5, 3], 3])␤»
Mouq m: my @a = [5,3], [6,2]; @a[*;1] = @a[*;0] X+ 1; say @a.perl
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«Array.new([5, 6], [6, 7])␤»
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TimToady I guess we just need to rewrite all the 2d logic on RC to use the new notation, but so far it looks pretty good to me :) 00:56
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TimToady will also be nice when we get this integrated with shaped array support eventually 00:57
but it's looking pretty LoLish to me
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TimToady it's really cool to see things that were specced a decade ago finally coming into being 00:59
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Mouq Hm.. Looks like we still need &lol, and we could use better integration with the subs and Cool.methods 01:13
S29:413 shouldn't that be --> LoL 01:14
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S29.html#line_413
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TimToady yeah, I suspect so 01:16
we probably need to make sure that ** params bind nicely to a LoL 01:17
Mouq Oh, that's another thing too, they hyper-thingies
TimToady alternately, lol doesn't really produce a LoL, but just an itemized list of lists 01:18
er, a list of itemized lists
but that's what ** is supposed to do anyway
yeah, also hyperwhatever, and || interpolation
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TimToady so the other theory is that lol is simply a binder to a **@lists param, and returns that 01:20
but this whole business is something we need to feel our way into
psch with $/ being implicit without an argument, i think?
S05 suggests something like that -- that's one of the things missing for m:g// 01:21
S05:"Capturing from repeated matches"
or is that just topicalization inside the if?
TimToady doesn't understand what you're asking 01:22
this doesn't seem to have much to do with LoL
psch yeah, i misremembered. :g doesn't do anything with LoL, :ex and :ov do
or maybe i'm just misunderstanding in general :)
it doesn't directly relate i guess 01:23
TimToady we were talking about LoL and ** binding just before you came on
not ** as in regex
but I can how you might misread what I said
psch i did catch the backlog, i was wondering about lol() in the example in S05 under "Capturing from repeated matches"
TimToady okay 01:24
psch say "Match { +lol() } times"
TimToady it's certainly true that submatches may themselves be lists
but as I say, we're still kinda feeling our way into this multidimensional thing 01:25
and it's not always clear at what point we want to switch from a structural definition to a typed definition
we use the LoL type to distinguish a .[1,2,3] subscript from a .[1,2,3;4,5,6] subscript 01:26
but outside of that, we probably want to define things as structural, so if we can get away with not creating a LoL object every time we don't flatten (or however you say that positively), then I think that's probably a good thing 01:27
Mouq TimToady, would **@lol simplify, e.g., infix:<Z>? 01:28
TimToady so maybe lol itself doesn't want to return a LoL, just something that is a list of individually lazy sublists that won't automatically flatten
well, that's generally a list of two lists, but it could be more, since it's list associative 01:29
@foo Z @bar Z @baz
and each of them is potentially lazy
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Mouq m: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = 4,5,6; sub foo (*@a) { say @a.perl }; foo @a, @b 01:30
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«Array.new(1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)␤»
Mouq Ahh
TimToady it's a bit of an intrusion for the grammar to install a LoL coercion, but it arises in subscripts because we don't want to wrap up every single-dimensional slice up as if it's multi-dimensional
m: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = 4,5,6; sub foo (**@a) { say @a.perl }; foo @a, @b 01:31
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«LoL.new([1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6])␤»
TimToady I guess ** does automatically make a LoL
Mouq Oh! I thought it was NYI
TimToady no, we've actually had that part for a long time :D
psch the other ** is NYI though
TimToady right, HyperWhatever 01:32
and prefix:<||>, to interplate at the dimensional level rather than the list level
Mouq Hm, how would you use that in a closure?
psch TimToady: i think the spec example i mentioned above wants to be .lol then? seeing as it's supposed to act on $/, which should be the topic in the if
Mouq psch: Might be a typo or artifact 01:33
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psch m: say (******)([1,2,3],[1,2,3]) 01:33
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/OASF04oczF␤HyperWhatever (**) not yet implemented. Sorry. ␤at /tmp/OASF04oczF:1␤------> say (**⏏****)([1,2,3],[1,2,3])␤»
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psch somewhat like that, i think 01:33
BenGoldberg std: say (******)([1,2,3],[1,2,3]) 01:34
camelia std 81e0d07: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 129m␤»
Mouq m: say (1,2,{@_.&sum}...*)[^5]
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/hmyCV5USHa␤Undeclared routine:␤ &sum used at line 1␤␤»
TimToady m: say [Z+] (1,2,3),(4,5,6),(7,8,9);
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«12 15 18␤»
TimToady there's a hidden **
but you'll notice that the lists are not separated by ; there 01:35
Mouq m: say (1,2,{@_.join.Int}...*)[^5]
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«1 2 12 1212 12121212␤»
Mouq m: say (1,2,**.join.Int...*)[^5] # Is this right? 01:36
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/I9LNI4s4nm␤HyperWhatever (**) not yet implemented. Sorry. ␤at /tmp/I9LNI4s4nm:1␤------> say (1,2,**⏏.join.Int...*)[^5] # Is this right?␤»
Mouq (On my part, not rakudo's)
TimToady well, if 1 and 2 were both lists, it might make more sense 01:37
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Mouq Right... 01:37
I just have trouble wrapping my head around some of this stuff
psch m: class A { method Str() { "foo" }; method list() { <a b c> } }; my $a = A.new; .say for $a 01:38
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«A.new()␤»
psch that's even differenter than i expected
Mouq Is there a use case for a currying HyperWhatever? 01:39
TimToady beats me
psch i came across the combination of .Str() and .list() with m:g// and wondered which it should be in e.g. for
Mouq m: class A { method Str() { "foo" }; method list() { <a b c> } }; my $a = A.new; .print for $a
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«foo»
Mouq m: class A { method Str() { "foo" }; method list() { <a b c> } }; my $a = A.new; .say for @$a
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«a␤b␤c␤»
psch Mouq++: thanks 01:40
TimToady: should $/ after a m:g// prefer .list over .Str?
in a for, as in Mouq's two examples 01:41
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TimToady that's an excellent question, except that $/ is an item, so maybe it's more like @/ 01:41
psch the actual case i'm worrying about is 'for m:g/./ { ... }' 01:42
which, as i have it, gives the whole match once
TimToady m: class A { method Str() { "foo" }; method list() { <a b c> } }; my \a = A.new; .say for a
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«A.new()␤»
TimToady m: class A { method Str() { "foo" }; method list() { <a b c> } }; my \a = A.new; .say for a,
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«A.new()␤»
TimToady m: class A { method Str() { "foo" }; method list() { <a b c> } }; my \a = A.new; .say for a,a
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«A.new()␤A.new()␤»
PerlJam psch: That's a "say what you mean" situation to me. i.e. you need to say .list if that's what you mean.
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TimToady for something that isn't an item, it sure keeps acting like an item :) 01:43
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Mouq m: class A { method Str() { "foo" }; method list() { <a b c> } }; my @a := A.new; .say for @a 01:43
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding; expected 'Positional' but got 'A'␤ in any bind_error at src/vm/moar/Perl6/Ops.nqp:221␤ in block at /tmp/mT47VeaoYx:1␤␤»
TimToady m: class A { method Str() { "foo" }; method list() { <a b c> } }; my \a = A.new; say list(a).WHAT
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«(List)␤»
TimToady arguably, things in a list context should prefer a .list interpretation 01:44
m: class A { method Str() { "foo" }; method list() { <a b c> } }; my \a = A.new; say a.list.WHAT
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«(Parcel)␤»
psch PerlJam: that's the assumption i was operating under, and how the branch works currently. still, i'm not really happy with it
dalek kudo/nom: f9f7464 | Mouq++ | src/core/LoL.pm:
Add &lol
Mouq One of my more complicated commits 01:45
TimToady you're getting cynical in your old age :)
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psch fwiw, github.com/perl6/roast/compare/mat..._quote_ops are the spectest changes to get those tests to pass for github.com/peschwa/rakudo/tree/rt82108 01:45
Mouq TimToady, how's they eye btw? 01:46
TimToady the bubble keeps getting smaller
still somewhat inflamed as long as I'm reabsorbing stitches, but it doesn't seem to be sending too many leucocytes in the direction of my cornea graft 01:47
Mouq Glad to hear it's improving though! :)
psch PerlJam: the break-neck case is just 'for m:g/$pat/ { }' and 'for s:g/$pat/$rep/ { }', where .list or @(...) don't really seem idiomatic
Mouq psch++
TimToady yeah, likewise when you return something from a @a[1][2] and have to add a .list or [] on the end to get it to work 01:48
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PerlJam aye, I guess that's true. Perhaps I've gotten too used to saying @() or .list :) 01:49
TimToady it's like, we don't really want to have a .list method that returns a Parcel, but a Match is a kind of Parcel, or Capture, or some such
or contrariwise, things in list context should automatically have .list called on 'em at some point 01:50
TimToady thinks we're confusing two different things under .list currently
PerlJam TimToady: how so? 01:51
TimToady all these different list contexts turned into mere methods, and that's part of why we need a list refactor, so that we can negotiate up and down a list whether it's eager, hyper, sunk, etc
PerlJam Hmm. That rings true. 01:52
TimToady and the whole point of having Parcels returned was to let it decide later whether it was in list or item context later 01:53
but we're using .list both to indicate context and to return a Parcel, so it doesn't work right
once we actually have parcels, it works out fine:
m: say [Z+] (1,2,3),(4,5,6),(7,8,9); 01:54
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«12 15 18␤»
TimToady those Parcels can wait until they get into [Z+] to decide whether to flatten or lol
but the ideal of return a Parcel to be used within a list seems to have come on hard times 01:55
*returning
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TimToady I've kinda been putting off thinking about this till we do the list refactor, but now that pmichaud++ is availabler, and I've been getting ichier about list efficiency, it's probably time to work that out better 01:56
PerlJam n: say [Z+] (1,2,3),(4,5,6),(7,8,9); # curious
camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«45␤»
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TimToady it takes special magic to get that to work, which I hacked into rakudo several months ago, but not into niecza 01:57
dalek kudo/S26-WHY: 9843893 | (Rob Hoelz)++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
Implement docs for subset types
 01:58
kudo/S26-WHY: 12bbede | (Rob Hoelz)++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp:
Fix our Mu check

nqp::isnull(Mu)? That's not true! THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE
Mouq (TimToady++) 01:59
psch i guess that means that for m:g// isn't really a Match issue, but a list context issue
Mouq is entertained that we can get ** to autocurry just by making HyperWhatever is Whatever
m: class Whyever is Whatever { }; say Whyever.perl 02:00
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«WhateverCode.new()␤»
dalek ast/S26-WHY: 0b9fb38 | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-documentation/why- (3 files):
Test docs on subset types
ast/S26-WHY: bf5de42 | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-TODO.md:
Check off subset types from the list
ast/S26-WHY: 0639ccf | (Rob Hoelz)++ | S26-TODO.md:
Document weirdness
TimToady psch: it might also mean that Match is Parcel, or that the both share a role 02:01
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PerlJam hoelzro++ that todo is almost todone it seems :) 02:04
hoelzro it's close!
there are a few bugs
but I can start working on them after the matrix is full
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Mouq TimToady: @a[**] should basically completely flatten the array, right? 02:09
TimToady I don't think of it that way
I think of it as meaning @a[*;*;*;*...] however many * you need
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TimToady whereas @a[*] only gives you top dimension 02:10
psch TimToady: maybe "should i start trying to make it work or wait for the list refactor" is the better utterance 02:11
as in, aside from the behavior of m:g// in a for i don't have anything that's not to-spec for my branch, but that's a pretty big "aside"
(also, landline is having trouble and my mobile is droppy, sorry for delays and rejoins)
TimToady no problem, I'm interleaving dinner prep :)
psch: if it requires a .list currently, we may well be able to relax that later, if things work out 02:13
Mouq But that's the effect, isn't it? Unless we want @a[**;0] to grab the first element of the last dimension...
*elements 02:14
TimToady but we need to rethink how lists policies are distributed
the thinking was that ** in a subscript could represent an arbitrary number of * in a row, potentially with normal dimensions on either or both ends
that probably can't work unless you know the actual shape 02:15
otherwise you don't know the boundary to stop at
Mouq We can try guessing :P but that's probably not wise in the long run 02:16
TimToady I'd think that @a[**] would return the dimensional info as parcels, and then it's someone else's decision whether to flatten 02:17
there's always @a.flat if you need it :)
psch oh, i just noticed one other thing that was a bit wonky with my changes. RT #121789, where github.com/perl6/roast/commit/500a...70c84d8416 has my thoughts on it
synopsebot Link: rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Displa...?id=121789
psch those should maybe also go into the ticket
Mouq m: my @a = [ [1,2,3], [4,5,6] ], [ [7,8,9], [10,11,12] ]; say @a[*;*;*].perl 02:19
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«(((1, 2, 3),), ((4, 5, 6),), ((7, 8, 9),), ((10, 11, 12),)).list␤»
Mouq TimToady: Something like that ^ then?
TimToady er, yeah :) 02:20
hope you don't have much trouble implementing that, oh wait
Mouq LoL
TimToady though in the absence of shape, you'd have to guess from structure that [**] means [*;*;*] 02:21
m: my @a = [ [1,2,3], [4,5,6] ], [ [7,8,9], [10,11,12] ]; say @a[*;*;*].tree.perl 02:22
camelia rakudo-moar f4ed49: OUTPUT«([1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6], [7, 8, 9], [10, 11, 12]).list␤»
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TimToady as you see, .tree is only defaulting to lol semantics at the moment 02:22
spec says it should default to all levels, not first level 02:23
in fact, it's very difficult to emulate that behavior in the absence of recursive .tree 02:24
which may be why .tree hasn't done it yet :) 02:26
but really, when you think about it, .tree is standing in for another one of those list negotiators that really wants to tell the originating code how to produce it, rather than actually going through the () intermediate form, at least on the optimizer level 02:28
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TimToady it's almost like these are pseudomethods that are trying to shove adverbs back upstream to pick a different algo 02:32
or wrapping different line disciplines or layers around a handle 02:33
but we have to do it lazily depending on eventual bound context, so it's worse than just treating the contextualizers as fancy macros, because macros would pass adverbs at compile time, which is too early 02:35
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TimToady we also want to be able to distribute list policy over multiple list items, with optional recursion (a là .tree) 02:36
*à la 02:38
worse, you might have a contextualizer that depends on yet another contextualizer downstream lazily, so the the negotiation may include multiple hops 02:40
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TimToady a lazy inside an eager is probably going to want to promote to eager, unless you're depending on side effects happening in a particular order 02:43
but a lazy inside a sink (think 'for' loops) is almost certainly evaluating the lazy for its side effects, and you might want to 'last' out before getting all those side effects 02:45
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TimToady so all we really need to do is solve the halting problem for the loop :) 02:46
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Mouq Can we ()[^5]:eager? 02:51
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TimToady syntactically, sure 02:52
Mouq :P
TimToady but that's not gonna be lazy
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TimToady you'd (perhaps) like 'lazy ()[^5]' to behave differently from 'eager ()[^5]', where those contexts might not be determinable statically 02:53
if it is determinable, you just put the particular output function, but if not, you return a meta-function that you talk to that gives you the appropriate output function to call 02:54
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TimToady it's all higher-order functions in the abstract, but those are hard to optimize before you know how they're boudn 02:54
we want to avoid list functions remaking the same decisions each time they're called; that needs to come out into the meta-function, and the actual functions we eventually use to process a list can be simple 02:56
we started to get there with .gimme but it's view of iterators is just not quite abstract enough 02:57
these meta-functions might almost behave like junctions that leap outside the Any domain into the conceptual domain of Mu, then rewire the program for you 02:58
only they'd do it for list args rather than items
that's kinda why we have Mu outside of Any, to allow more conceptual types like junctions, but so far all we've used it for is junctions 02:59
but as you might imagine, this is not a small refactor 03:00
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TimToady but given the Mu space, we can probably prototype it there and migrate list processing piecemeal 03:00
gotta think more about this though...
it's quite possible that this will make static analysis harder, but provide simpler semantics for the inliner and jitter 03:01
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psch i don't have the brains anymore to add my thoughts to the ticket linked above; sleep it is o/ 03:05
TimToady o/
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Mouq is trying to make sense of S02:1281 03:16
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html#line_1281
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TimToady doesn't think we necessarily have to implement multidimensional ranges for ^** if ** means the same thing 03:19
^** is a bit out there 03:20
it's sort of a ||( ^* xx *)
might eventually be a useful idea, but might well not 03:21
in any case, ** is already a multidimensional whatever, so maybe we don't need to generate multidim ranges
Mouq Still, I'm not sure "@array[{ map { ^* }, @_ }]" makes sense. It doesn't to me, anyway 03:22
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TimToady especially since @a[**]:keys would give us something similar 03:22
I think it's probably confusing autopriming with Inf there
Mouq m: my @a = [ [1,2,3], [4,5,6] ], [ [7,8,9], [10,11,12] ]; say (@a[*;*;*]:keys).perl 03:23
camelia rakudo-moar f9f746: OUTPUT«Unexpected named parameter 'keys' passed␤ in sub postcircumfix:<[ ]> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:2507␤ in sub postcircumfix:<[ ]> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:2663␤ in sub postcircumfix:<[ ]> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:2663␤ in sub postcircumfix:<[ ]…»
TimToady m: say (^*).WHAT
camelia rakudo-moar f9f746: OUTPUT«(WhateverCode)␤»
TimToady well, I guess it autoprimes
Mouq m: my @a = [ [1,2,3], [4,5,6] ], [ [7,8,9], [10,11,12] ]; say (@a[*;*;*]:kv).perl
camelia rakudo-moar f9f746: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'Real'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U \v: *%_)␤ in sub infix:<<> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4286␤ in method exists_pos at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:8127␤ in block at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:2356␤ in sub SLICE_MORE at src/gen/…»
TimToady since excluding Inf from 0..Inf is not terribly meaningful
so maybe it does make sense(ish)
presumably each key from the :kv has to be multidimensional [0,0,0] => 1, [0,0,1] => 2, etc 03:25
presumably in the same parcel structure the values woulda come out 03:26
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TimToady well, $(0,0,0) => 1 mabye 03:26
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TimToady or even just (0,0,0) => 1 03:27
the pair kindof itemized its own self without help
m: say ((0,0,0) => 1).perl 03:28
camelia rakudo-moar f9f746: OUTPUT«$(0, 0, 0) => 1␤»
TimToady yeah
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TimToady arguably it should be syntactically an item, but just use \ semantics on the key and value 03:28
Mouq m: my @a = [ [1,2,3], [4,5,6] ], [ [7,8,9], [10,11,12] ]; say (@a[*;*;*]:delete).perl 03:29
camelia rakudo-moar f9f746: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'Real'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U \v: *%_)␤ in sub infix:<<> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:4286␤ in method delete_pos at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:8851␤ in block at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:2207␤ in sub SLICE_MORE at src/gen/…»
Mouq Huh
TimToady that...might require a different visitation order... 03:30
Mouq m: my @a = [ [1,2,3], [4,5,6] ], [ [7,8,9], [10,11,12] ]; say (@a[*;*;1]:delete).perl
camelia rakudo-moar f9f746: OUTPUT«((2,), (5,), (8,), (11,)).list␤»
Mouq m: my @a = [ [1,2,3], [4,5,6] ], [ [7,8,9], [10,11,12] ]; say (@a[*;*;1]:delete).perl; say @a.perl
camelia rakudo-moar f9f746: OUTPUT«((2,), (5,), (8,), (11,)).list␤Array.new([[1, Any, 3], [4, Any, 6]], [[7, Any, 9], [10, Any, 12]])␤»
TimToady just can't wildcard the last dim, I guess 03:31
Mouq m: my @a = [ [1,2,3], [4,5,6] ], [ [7,8,9], [10,11,12] ]; say (@a[*;*;1]:kv).perl; say @a.perl 03:32
camelia rakudo-moar f9f746: OUTPUT«(((1, 2),), ((1, 5),), ((1, 8),), ((1, 11),)).list␤Array.new([[1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6]], [[7, 8, 9], [10, 11, 12]])␤»
Mouq m: my @a = [ [1,2,3], [4,5,6] ], [ [7,8,9], [10,11,12] ]; say (@a[*;*;1]:pairs).perl;
camelia rakudo-moar f9f746: OUTPUT«Unexpected named parameter 'pairs' passed␤ in sub postcircumfix:<[ ]> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:2507␤ in sub postcircumfix:<[ ]> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:2663␤ in sub postcircumfix:<[ ]> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:2663␤ in sub postcircumfix:<[ …»
Mouq m: my @a = [ [1,2,3], [4,5,6] ], [ [7,8,9], [10,11,12] ]; say (@a[*;*;1]:p).perl;
camelia rakudo-moar f9f746: OUTPUT«((1 => 2,), (1 => 5,), (1 => 8,), (1 => 11,)).list␤»
Mouq will stop spamming
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TimToady is it distributing :kv etc to the subarrays? 03:32
Mouq Yes 03:33
TimToady I wouldn't want that for shaped arrays, but maybe it makes more sense for ad hoc
for shaped arrays, (0,0,0) is the real key, and there's no key to the subarrays that is meaningful 03:34
however, if you flatten a distributed :kv it's not going to make much sense, since it loses the key context
so I'm not sure it makes much sense there either
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TimToady you could still get that behavior wish something like a deepmap 03:35
if you wanted it
but I suspect multidim subscripts should return multidim keys
whether shaped or not 03:36
someting you could bind to -> $x, $y, $z and get back to the original element
dunno how hard that is given your current setup 03:37
@line[*-6] ~~ s/wish/with/ 03:38
Mouq I think it'll be easier than getting @a[**] to work right 03:40
TimToady well, arguably the key should be (0;0;0) in case they turn into slices :D
'course, that syntax is taken... 03:41
Not only are there not enough brackets in ASCII, there are not enough semicolons... 03:42
Mouq It's still written that (@a;@b;@c) is a LoL in spec, I just didn't implement it for fear of breaking code
:P
TimToady yeah, that's fossilic 03:43
fossilacious?
fossilly, even
sjohnson hey timtoday, how're things?
oops, timtoady* 03:44
TimToady I been worse
barely
been a while
sjohnson Timothy Toadstool
TimToady never met 'im 03:45
sjohnson "could be better, could be worse" is a good way to be.
TimToady well, bad eye chose to get badder last month, but we're on the mend, for the most part
sjohnson hmm, i might have to backlog. 03:46
wasn't aware of any eye problems.
TimToady it remains to be seen whether I'll be able to give people the stinkeye better with my good eye or my bad eye :)
yeah, search the logs for 'detachment' 03:47
or 'retina'
or 'bubble' :)
or heck, just read everything I wrote for the last five years :) 03:48
PerlJam
.oO( bubble, bubble, toil and trouble )
Mouq m: my %h = :a, :b, :c; given %h { when :q { die ":(" }; when :a { say ":)" }} 03:50
camelia rakudo-moar f9f746: OUTPUT«:(␤ in block at /tmp/eCDU0dY62D:1␤␤»
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TimToady hmm, unfortunately, :q returns True, which is always True 04:16
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Mouq manages to reduce Stage Parse to Inf 04:41
m: my %h = :a, :b, :c; given %h { when :q{so $_} { die ":(" }; when :a{so $_} { say ":)" }} 04:42
camelia rakudo-moar f9f746: OUTPUT«:)␤»
Mouq :P
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moritz \o 05:13
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Mouq has spent close to 60x more time debugging this than he did writing it :( 05:49
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dalek kudo/nom: 02277af | Mouq++ | src/core/ (3 files):
Have [;] and {;} return LoL-y indices for :{p,k,kv}
 07:32
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Mouq Oh, wtf, that's not the code I wanted to push 07:33
Now I have to try to remake what I want, debug it, because everything inexplicably buildfails or is extremely touchy, and test that it doesn't regress. Lucky this is not a highly used feature yet 07:38
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Mouq i don't even know what the issue is, moar keeps segfaulting in stage parse if I hand it some valid setting code that it doesn't like :/ 07:43
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FROGGS[mobile] rurban: at at the time you said that parrot's threading was better than moar's moar had no threading support 08:02
rurban: so it was just rediculous to say that
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FROGGS[mobile] rurban: and parrot's developement took a quite long pause, and until this year's gsoc I thought it was stalled 08:04
rurban: and non-blocking threading is nice but does not help much when the lexpad slows down everything 08:05
dalek kudo/nom: 39f7354 | Mouq++ | src/core/ (2 files):
Bugfixes to the last commit
 08:07
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Mouq Only took 4 hours /o\ 08:08
moritz Mouq: I know that feeling very well 08:10
Mouq++ # for doing it anyway
FROGGS[mobile] Has this something todo with a build fail I've seen about 10 hours ago?
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Mouq FROGGS[mobile]: My latest commit was to fix my own commit from 40 minutes ago 08:13
FROGGS[mobile] ahh, okay :o)
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Mouq m: 1[3]:kv # this was one thing that caused me a lot of pain; i didn't realize it wasn't (directly) my fault 08:15
camelia rakudo-moar f9f746: OUTPUT«Invocant requires a type object, but an object instance was passed␤ in method exists_pos at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:1491␤ in block at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:2139␤ in sub postcircumfix:<[ ]> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:2493␤ in block at /tmp/RPmX…»
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Mouq m: 1[3]:exists 08:24
camelia rakudo-moar f9f746: OUTPUT«Invocant requires a type object, but an object instance was passed␤ in method exists_pos at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:1491␤ in block at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:2106␤ in sub postcircumfix:<[ ]> at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:2490␤ in block at /tmp/N5V6…»
dalek kudo/nom: 976f5c4 | Mouq++ | src/core/Any.pm:
Fix 1[1]:exists and 1<foo>:exists
 08:26
Mouq However... This begs the question of why we only return a value for :kv, :k, or :p if the element exists 08:34
m: my @a = 2,3,4; my ($k, $v) := @a[1]:kv; $v = 5 08:35
camelia rakudo-moar f9f746: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a readonly variable or a value␤ in block at /tmp/0EdAUI3bhx:1␤␤»
Mouq m: my @a = 2,3,4; say @a[3]:kv;
camelia rakudo-moar f9f746: OUTPUT«␤»
Mouq I'd expect 3 => Any, but maybe my expectations are wrong here 08:36
ChoHag Why doesn't this work? 08:40
grammar Lines { rule TOP { ^ <line>+ $ }; rule line { ^^ <( \N* )> $$ } }
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FROGGS_ m: grammar Lines { rule TOP { ^ <line>+ $ }; rule line { ^^ <( \N* )> $$ } }; say Lines.subparse("a\n\b\n") 08:41
camelia rakudo-moar 39f735: OUTPUT«#<failed match>␤»
FROGGS_ m: grammar Lines { rule TOP { ^ <line>+ % \n $ }; rule line { ^^ <( \N* )> $$ } }; say Lines.subparse("a\n\b\n")
camelia rakudo-moar 39f735: OUTPUT«#<failed match>␤»
FROGGS_ m: grammar Lines { rule TOP { ^ <line>+ % \n $ }; rule line { \N* } }; say Lines.subparse("a\n\b\n")
camelia rakudo-moar 39f735: OUTPUT«#<failed match>␤»
Mouq s/rule/token/? 08:42
It's eating the \n's before you can match them 08:43
FROGGS_ m: grammar Lines { rule TOP { ^ <line>+ % \n $ }; token line { ^^ <( \N* )> $$ } }; say Lines.subparse("a\nb\n")
camelia rakudo-moar 39f735: OUTPUT«｢a␤b␤｣␤ line => ｢a｣␤ line => ｢b｣␤␤»
Ven o/
FROGGS_ and I also did \b sadly :o)
Mouq m: "\b".perl.say 08:44
camelia rakudo-moar 39f735: OUTPUT«"\b"␤»
Mouq informative
Also \o Ven! 08:45
Ven isn't it <|b> in perl6 ?
the word boundary one, that is.
Mouq Ven: He wrote "a\n\b\n" :) 08:46
Ven fair enough :o)
Ven has been reading and re-reading s05
Mouq Ven: I think so, though
Mouq tends to use « and » more often when a boundary is needed 08:47
masak good antenoon, #perl6 08:49
m: my $r = /foo<\w>/; say so "foo" ~~ $r; say so "foobar" ~~ $r 08:50
camelia rakudo-moar 39f735: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter < (must be quoted to match literally)␤at /tmp/X1pxv7FMEx:1␤------> my $r = /foo<⏏\w>/; say so "foo" ~~ $r; say so "foobar␤Unable to parse regex; couldn't find fina…»
masak m: my $r = /foo<|w>/; say so "foo" ~~ $r; say so "foobar" ~~ $r
camelia rakudo-moar 39f735: OUTPUT«True␤False␤»
masak Ven: <|w>, not <|b> -- to parallel \w
Ven ah, alrighty. 08:51
guess I still havn't read it enough times :o)
moritz m: say so m/foo<.wb>/ for <foo foobar> 08:52
camelia rakudo-moar 39f735: OUTPUT«True␤False␤»
Mouq So **+1 means {@_.map(*+1)}. What does **+** mean? 08:57
dalek kudo/HyperWat: 412920f | Mouq++ | src/ (5 files):
Add HyperWhatever, move NYIs
 09:00
kudo/HyperWat: fbae5fd | Mouq++ | src/core/ (4 files):
Merge branch 'nom' into HyperWat
Mouq (so others can stare at the code and wonder what it's supposed to do, too ;)
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Mouq hoelzro++ for continuing to work on #| and #= 09:11
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PotatoGim Hi 09:15
Mouq Hiya
:)
perlcabal.org/syn/S13.html#Type_Casting needs to be fixed to represet the method -> sub change 09:17
And mention at_pos, exists_pos, and delete_pos 09:18
m: say Any.^methods.grep(*.name ~~ /pos/) # that's all of them, right? 09:19
camelia rakudo-moar 39f735: OUTPUT«␤»
Mouq m: say Any.^methods.grep({.name ~~ /pos/}) # that's all of them, right?
camelia rakudo-moar 39f735: OUTPUT«exists_pos delete_pos at_pos assign_pos␤»
moritz bind_pos maybe? 09:20
m: say Array.^methods(:all).grep({.name ~~ /pos/}) 09:21
camelia rakudo-moar 39f735: OUTPUT«bind_pos delete_pos at_pos assign_pos exists_pos at_pos exists_pos delete_pos at_pos assign_pos␤»
moritz m: say Array.^methods(:all).map(*.name).grep(/pos/).uniq
camelia rakudo-moar 39f735: OUTPUT«bind_pos delete_pos at_pos assign_pos exists_pos␤»
Ven m: <foo bar baroo>.grep(/oo/) 09:25
camelia ( no output )
Ven m: <foo bar baroo>.grep(/oo/).say # ENOSAY.
camelia rakudo-moar 39f735: OUTPUT«foo baroo␤»
Ven oh, moritz++ was faster, eh. 09:26
spider-mario m: macro hello($name) {quasi { say "Hello { {{{$name}}} } !"; };} 09:34
camelia rakudo-moar 39f735: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unknown QAST node type QAST::Unquote␤»
spider-mario I think it used to work, a while back
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Mouq star: macro hello($name) {quasi { say "Hello { {{{$name}}} } !"; };} 09:36
camelia star-{m,p} 2014.04: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Error while compiling op call: Unknown QAST node type QAST::Unquote␤»
Mouq spider-mario: I've come across it a bunch with macros, I'm not sure what the issue is :( 09:37
spider-mario :/ 09:38
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Ven maybe masak knows 09:47
09:47 thou left
Mouq I poked him and he made a bug report about it 09:48
So he may or may not :)
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Ven .o( masak only knows if masak knows ) 09:49
Mouq method postcircumfix:<( )> -> method invoke was really easy, just a few spectest fails that still use method postcircumfix:<( )> 09:50
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Mouq We should probably emit a warning upon parsing a method postcircumfix:<*> 09:51
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dalek kudo/nom: d7808f5 | Mouq++ | src/ (5 files):
method postcircumfix:<( )> becomes method invoke

per irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-07-08#i_8992020		 09:57
jnthn Mouq: We probably coulda done with a deprecation cycle there. That patch will almost certainly have to be backed out, because it's being landed less than a week to a release and will totally bust multiple modules in the ecosystem. 10:02
Mouq O_O oh
kay
jnthn NativeCall being one of them
That one I can update in time
But I suspect there will be wider fallout.
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jnthn I think still supporting postcircumfix:<( )> if there's no invoke should be possible. 10:03
And then we can put in some kind of deprecation notice if you do use one.
(There's already a system for doing that). 10:04
Mouq jnthn: I'll try to make it fall back to postcircumfix:<( )>, there's only 2 or 3 places that call it 10:05
jnthn The other thing is that I think the spec doesn't want us to pass a Capture, but rather just the args directly.
So we might want to break that while we're also breaking this :)
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jnthn Anyway, yeah, looking at the patch, there's just 2 places that'll need the fallback thing. 10:07
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jnthn (And updating the spectests to the new thing is sensible too, of course.) 10:09
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timotimo i'm looking forward to actually understanding what hyperwhatever actually does when it's implemented %) 10:10
jnthn Same :D
Happy to see Mouq++ taking on the multi-dim stuff :)
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timotimo me, too 10:10
and when we have native/packed multi-dim arrays that have access to them speshed (and jitted!), we'll be unstoppable! 10:11
jnthn Yeah, much better native stuff is on my roadmap for autumn :)
dalek kudo/nom: 08fec13 | Mouq++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/ (2 files):
Allow old postcircumfix:<( )> to work too, for now
 10:12
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dalek kudo/nom: 9062e4c | Mouq++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/InvocationProtocol.nqp:
Uh, don't look in other classes if postcircumfix:<( )> is defined
 10:20
Mouq m: my @a = [ [1,2,3], [4,5,6] ], [ [7,8,9], [10,11,12] ]; say @a[*;*;1]:p; # btw :) 10:25
camelia rakudo-moar 976f5c: OUTPUT«LoL.new(0, 0, 1).item => 2 LoL.new(0, 1, 1).item => 5 LoL.new(1, 0, 1).item => 8 LoL.new(1, 1, 1).item => 11␤»
jnthn Mouq: Looks good; thanks! :) 10:39
lizmat is the .item there really necessary ? 10:40
Mouq m: say (LoL.new(0,0,1) => 2).perl 10:42
camelia rakudo-moar d7808f: OUTPUT«LoL.new(0, 0, 1).item => 2␤»
lizmat so an artefact somehow 10:43
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jnthn Without it, a LoL would flatten, I guess? 10:43
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lizmat I thought it shouldn't? 10:44
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lizmat r: say EVAL'(LoL.new(0,0,1) => 2').perl 10:45
camelia rakudo-jvm d7808f: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo-{parrot,moar} d7808f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfile␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤------> say EVAL⏏'(LoL.new(0,0,1) => 2').perl␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ …»
lizmat r: say EVAL'((LoL.new(0,0,1) => 2)').perl 10:46
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} d7808f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfile␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤------> say EVAL⏏'((LoL.new(0,0,1) => 2)').perl␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix…»
lizmat r: say EVAL('LoL.new(0,0,1) => 2').perl
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camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} d7808f: OUTPUT«LoL.new(0, 0, 1).item => 2␤» 10:46
lizmat doesn't seem to be necessary for rountripping ?
jnthn In that particular context, no. 10:47
Not sure that always applies..
lizmat ah, ok, in that way
r: say EVAL('(LoL.new(0,0,1),3,4).list').perl
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} d7808f: OUTPUT«(0, 0, 1, 3, 4).list␤»
lizmat r: say EVAL('(LoL.new(0,0,1).item,3,4).list').perl 10:48
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} d7808f: OUTPUT«(LoL.new(0, 0, 1).item, 3, 4).list␤»
lizmat I see what you mean :-)
Mouq . o O ( [0, 0, 1]:lol ) 10:51
Mouq wonders, actually how many WATs [0; 0; 1] -> LoL.new(0, 0, 1).item would be 10:53
s/actually)>/,/ 10:54
s/')>'/<( :P
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masak Mouq: the issue with the macros is that it gets confused as soon as you have a block or a sub in there. 11:01
Mouq: I'm pretty sure I know where to start looking for a solution to that. 11:02
Mouq Ok :) ++masak ;)
grondilu m: say { $^X }("hi") 11:08
camelia rakudo-moar d7808f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/ibDEw7b6Ax␤Unsupported use of $^X variable; in Perl 6 please use $*EXECUTABLE_NAME␤at /tmp/ibDEw7b6Ax:1␤------> say { $^X⏏ }("hi")␤»
grondilu ^that's a bit inconvenient 11:09
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psch grondilu: S06:1953 "Positional placeholder names consisting of a single uppercase letter are disallowed, [...]" 11:12
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S06.html#line_1953
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psch i think $^X only has the problem of a wrong error there? 11:12
m: { say $^Q }("hi") 11:13
camelia rakudo-moar d7808f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/i7dG3FyW_q␤Unsupported use of $^Q variable␤at /tmp/i7dG3FyW_q:1␤------> { say $^Q⏏ }("hi")␤»
psch hm, no. should probably still be more precise
grondilu psch: OK, noted.
psch well, the $^X error is definitely wrong; it should probably be something like "if you mean a placeholder use lowercase, if you mean Perl 5's $^X use $*EXECUTEABLE_NAME" or somesuch 11:14
grondilu I've just realised I don't have to use uppercase anyway 11:15
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psch Mouq++ # HyperWat 11:16
lizmat psch: that text is more geared towards people coming from Perl 5 11:17
$^X is quite common for some uses in Perl 5
specifically testing related
psch lizmat: i understand that. i just think that the placeholder intent should be mentioned in the error message for both cases as well 11:18
lizmat working on that 11:19
psch ah, ok, i was just about to look into it :)
lizmat src/core/Exception.pm, line 711
ChoHag FROGGS_: Thanks. Didn't mean to ignore you - got kicked off the net.
lizmat be my guest :-)
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hoelzro morning #perl6 11:35
timotimo hey hoe :P 11:36
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hoelzro ahoy timotimo! 11:36
timotimo i think at this point i'll just do a 2-week weekly again ... 11:37
lizmat timotimo: that seems wise
hoelzro agreed - unless the activity level merits it 11:38
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timotimo there was lots of activity, but later in the week it feels hard to keep the changes since monday to yourself and it seems silly to do a weekly on friday and then another on monday 11:39
even though it feels like jnthn does a lot of his amazing work on weekends and mondays %)
hoelzro heh 11:40
timotimo: is there anything people can do to help? I mean, we can all PM you and brag about ourselves =)
timotimo i'd actually appreciate that :P
lizmat r: my $a = 42; { my $a = 16; EVAL "say $a", :context(OUTER::); } # shouldn't this say "42" ? 11:46
camelia rakudo-jvm 9062e4: OUTPUT«(timeout)» 11:47
..rakudo-{parrot,moar} 9062e4: OUTPUT«16␤»
Mouq jnthn, timotimo: If either of you have a sec, could you check the logic of src/Perl6/Metamodel/BOOTSTRAP.nqp L 1820 to the end of that loop? I don't really understand what it's doing that well 11:48
timotimo r: my $a = 42; { my $a = 16; EVAL "say $a", :context(OUTER::OUTER::); }
camelia rakudo-{parrot,jvm,moar} 9062e4: OUTPUT«16␤»
timotimo hm.
lizmat hmmm indeed, no? 11:49
timotimo hmm indeed, yes. 11:50
moritz the $a interpolates into the string you pass to EVAL 11:52
lizmat grrr
of course
m: my $a = 42; { my $a = 16; EVAL q[say $a], :context(CALLER::); }
camelia rakudo-moar 9062e4: OUTPUT«42␤»
lizmat moritz++
m: my $a = 42; { my $a = 16; EVAL q[say $a], :context(OUTER:); } 11:53
camelia rakudo-moar 9062e4: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/gx5BBgEAkk␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/gx5BBgEAkk:1␤------> $a = 16; EVAL q[say $a], :context(OUTER⏏:); }␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix stopper…»
lizmat m: my $a = 42; { my $a = 16; EVAL q[say $a], :context(OUTER::); }
camelia rakudo-moar 9062e4: OUTPUT«42␤»
timotimo moritz: aaaaah m)
Mouq (nvm, it seems to be an otherwise ungolfable setting bug -_-) 11:55
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timotimo d'oh 11:56
lizmat m: sub a { say $^a }; { say OUTER::.keys } # shouldn't this also list &a ? 12:00
camelia rakudo-moar 9062e4: OUTPUT«$! $/ $_ GLOBALish EXPORT $?PACKAGE ::?PACKAGE &a $=pod !UNIT_MARKER␤»
lizmat ah, but it does ?
timotimo m: sub a { say $^a }; say ::.keys 12:05
camelia rakudo-moar 9062e4: OUTPUT«$! $/ $_ GLOBALish EXPORT $?PACKAGE ::?PACKAGE &a $=pod !UNIT_MARKER␤»
timotimo yeah, both do
m: sub HERE_I_AM_LOOK_AT_ME { say $^a }; say ::.keys # much easier to spot 12:06
camelia rakudo-moar 9062e4: OUTPUT«$! $/ $_ GLOBALish EXPORT $?PACKAGE ::?PACKAGE &HERE_I_AM_LOOK_AT_ME $=pod !UNIT_MARKER␤»
dalek kudo/nom: 13df800 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | lib/Test.pm:
Make sure EVAL is done in right context
 12:08
jnthn lizmat: Wait wait wait... 12:09
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jnthn lizmat: We have eval_lives_ok and eval_dies_ok taking blocks for things like this, I thought? 12:09
lizmat: But moreover: the optimizer looks for EVAL to appear
And since the test doesn't contain a call to EVAL, it's free to optimize lexicals out. 12:10
So this will be highly unreliable.
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lizmat hmmm.... 12:13
so maybe then the "context" option should be taken from EVAL ?
FWIW, I unspecced "eval_dies/lives_ok" in favour of handling this with dies_ok/lives_ok (taking a string to EVAL) 12:14
jnthn context is not spec'd at all 12:15
lizmat but if what you say is true, then *any* sub doing an EVAL and referencing things in an OUTER:: scope is fragile
jnthn It exists purely to make .EVAL work
12:16 nbrown left
jnthn my $a; ... if x { while y { EVAL 'blah $a' } } # fine because the EVAL poisons optimizations for everything in the surrounding scopes 12:16
lizmat and the same goes for .EVAL ? 12:17
jnthn Right
The optimizer specifically looks for them
This is why the change to uppercase
lizmat and eval_dies/lives_ok then? 12:18
is that checked for as well, by name ?
jnthn No 12:19
lizmat but that would have the same problem, no ?
jnthn Hm...we don't actually have thsoe, do we?
moritz those currently eval in their own scope
(and I had to fix many tests that implicitly assumed otherwise) 12:20
jnthn oh, we do
Right
moritz ("it fails at compile time? let's just put an eval around it")
lizmat eval_dies_ok uses a sub: eval_exception($code);
jnthn I do wonder if we should just encourage lives_ok { EVAL '...' }
lizmat well, that's fine by me
jnthn Which is reliable and not a lot longer
lizmat and I'll deprecate eval_lives/dies_ok 12:21
moritz and viable since EVAL doesn't catch exceptions any longer
jnthn moritz: aye, good point
lizmat and handle the test-suite, because I want to basically use throws_like wherever possible
to make sure things die for the right reason 12:22
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jnthn Well, yes, that's preferable anyway 12:22
FROGGS_ ChoHag: np, I don't expect that the ppl I am talking are at the keyboard all the time :o)
lizmat shall I rewrite .EVAL so that it won't need the :context parameter anymore, and remove it from sub EVAL ?
12:24 PacoLinux left
moritz that sounds somewhat wrong 12:24
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lizmat otoh, if there would be an easy way to "poison" a scope 12:25
timotimo EVAL "" 12:26
or CALLER::
lizmat then we could e.g. have "use Test" poison the scope in which it is loaded automaticaly
timotimo i don't like the sound of that
jnthn Me either...
lizmat: Well, the point of :context(...) is that .EVAL can be implemented in terms of EVAL 12:27
lizmat perhaps we should have a EVAL() candidate that does nothing
can be removed itself, but poisons the scope ?
and spec it as such ?
jnthn No, I don't see how that helps much 12:29
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jnthn I mean, why would you want to prevent optimizations if you aren't going to do something that they would make a problem for? 12:30
lizmat the reason for all of this was this code: 12:31
throws_like q[fac('oh noes i am a string')], X::TypeCheck::Argument;
the eval was done in the wrong scope, and therefore it didn't see the fac() definition
so it was failing because of Undeclared Symboils, rather than because of the type check 12:32
in this particular case, I could only see a problem if the enitre sub fac() was optimized away 12:33
(file in question: t/spec/integration/advent2009-day04.t )
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lizmat if you're saying we should always do: 12:34
throws_like { EVAL q[fac('oh noes i am a string')] }, X::TypeCheck::Argument;
that's fine by me... but then we will need to get rid of eval_lives/dies_ok
and replace that with lives/dies_ok and the necessary { EVAL ... }
jnthn It's only an issue for things that want symbols in the outer scope 12:35
So for testing parse errors the string form of throws_like isn't so bad
I think eval_lives_ok and eval_dies_ok could happily go, though. 12:36
lizmat but from a naive user point of view, why need { EVAL ... } in this case, and not in others ?
I'd rather then remove the string eval option from throws_like 12:37
and be clear about it
"yeah, you can specify a string, and it may work now, but not in the future when we optimize differently"
jnthn Um, it reliably fails to work today, no? 12:38
cognome github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/...ute.pm#L33 nqp::die("Cannot create rw-accessors for natively typed attribute '$name'");
Is this a limitation of the rakudo implementation or is it specified?
jnthn The optimization fragility was to do with passing context => CALLER::CALLER::
moritz cognome: implementation limit
timotimo cognome: implementation limit
lizmat well, if "dies_ok" dies for the wrong reason, you're not testing right 12:39
timotimo yeah
cognome: jnthn has that on his "to do" list for autumn
jnthn lizmat: Yes, that's why I don't worry much about throws_like and the string case.
lizmat: Because you specify the mode of failure
lizmat: So false positives are much less likely
lizmat true
jnthn Agree eval_[dies|lives]_ok are fragile 12:40
moritz d'accord
cognome thx, moritz++, timotimo++ Where is that TODO list, jnhtn specific, or not?
lizmat still, hard to explain why sometimes you would need to use { EVAL ... } for throws_like, and when not
moritz cognome: there's a docs/ROADMAP in the rakudo repository
lizmat so I'd rather remove the string option for clarity 12:41
moritz lizmat: don't remove it; just explain it in the docs
lizmat: it's very convenient to have
jnthn lizmat: "If you will use any symbols in the surrouding scope, use the block and EVAL form. If you are purely testing ability to parse, the string form is fine." 12:42
moritz cognome: it says "missing native operators, including ++/--", which requires rw-access to natives
cognome: so it's a bit hidden in the ROADMAP
jnthn Well, unless the parse depends on things in the outer scope :P
lizmat moritz, jnthn: in the S24 spec? as there is hardly any docs inside lib/Test.pm
jnthn So probably drop the second aprt of what I said :)
lizmat nor do I know a way to easily look up the pod
moritz lizmat: in S24, yes
lizmat: we might want to import S24 (or parts thereof) into Test.pm eventually 12:43
lizmat it feels wrong to me, but will do so 12:44
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masak recursively removing a directory in a platform-independent way? 12:50
dalek ecs: 2128e89 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S24-testing.pod:
Only throws_like accepts a string as well
ecs: c80388e | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S24-testing.pod:
Mention caveat with symbols when using string
masak guess there is a File::Utils somewhere that does that, right?
masak goes with `shell("rm -r dir")` for now 12:51
dalek kudo/nom: 1378792 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | lib/Test.pm:
Using an internal EVAL feature considerd BAD(TM)
 12:53
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psch hm, the $^X thing is a tad more complicated than it appears on the surface i fear 13:18
m: EVAL "{ $^X }"; CATCH { default { .^name.say } }
camelia rakudo-moar 9062e4: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/bqGQ1jdkKy␤Unsupported use of $^X variable; in Perl 6 please use $*EXECUTABLE_NAME␤at /tmp/bqGQ1jdkKy:1␤------> EVAL "{ $^X⏏ }"; CATCH { default { .^name.say } }␤»
psch m: { EVAL "{ $^X }"; CATCH { default { .^name.say } } }
camelia rakudo-moar 9062e4: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/ZY6QToC9Hh␤Unsupported use of $^X variable; in Perl 6 please use $*EXECUTABLE_NAME␤at /tmp/ZY6QToC9Hh:1␤------> { EVAL "{ $^X⏏ }"; CATCH { default { .^name.say } } }␤»
psch ehh, double quotes :)
m: { EVAL '{ $^X }'; CATCH { default { .^name.say } } }
camelia rakudo-moar 9062e4: OUTPUT«X::Syntax::Perl5Var␤»
psch m: { EVAL '$^X'; CATCH { default { .^name.say } } } 13:19
camelia rakudo-moar 9062e4: OUTPUT«X::Syntax::Perl5Var␤»
psch what i have now groups X::Placeholder::Mainline and X::Syntax::Perl5Var instead of always throwing Perl5Var for any possible Perl5Var
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psch but that breaks about 29 spectest tests, because those don't expect a Comp::Group 13:20
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lizmat isn't it just a matter of changing the messages in those two classes if it matches $^[A-Z] ? 13:20
$^<[A..Z]> (excuse my p5) 13:21
psch right, i added the message for Perl5Var
moritz maybe throws_like should special-case Comp::Group, and go into the list of exceptions in that case
it's a recurring theme
lizmat is this a throws_like problem ?
moritz well 13:22
psch kindasorta, i think
moritz maybe it's a more general exception classification problem
usually we ask "is this exception a X::Foo?"
dalek kudo/nom: dd8679e | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | lib/Test.pm:
No longer allow strings with dies_ok/lives_ok
moritz but in the case of group exception, we ought to ask "is there an exception of type X::Foo in there?"
lizmat we do $_ ~~ ex_type
so it is not an isa relationship 13:23
moritz not always
lizmat are you saying the test should also .isa($ex_type) ?
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pmichaud good morning, #perl6 13:24
lizmat morning pmichaud 13:25
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pmichaud lizmat o/ 13:25
psch hi pmichaud \o
moritz: just having throws_like go into the group seems a bit magicy to me 13:26
pmichaud note to yapceu folks: I've decided not to make it to sofia... I have a few other things going on here and I can't quite justify the 30 hours of air travel
but salzburg is definitely on my calendar
psch and smartmatch in general against a Comp::Group on the lhs probably shouldn't do that, even though i kind of would like it to
jnthn pmichaud: Aww, ok.
13:27 dmol1 left
jnthn 30 hours *is* quite a bit. 13:27
dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 86 commits to rakudo/S26-WHY by hoelzro
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psch m: { EVAL "infix:<>() {}"; CATCH { when X::Comp::Group { .^name.say for .worries, .panic } } } 13:29
camelia rakudo-moar 9062e4: OUTPUT«X::Comp::AdHoc␤X::Undeclared::Symbols␤»
psch m: { EVAL "/m ** 1..-1/"; CATCH { when X::Comp::Group { .^name.say for .worries, .sorrows, .panic } } }
camelia rakudo-moar 9062e4: OUTPUT«X::Syntax::Regex::MalformedRange␤X::Syntax::Regex::UnrecognizedMetachar␤X::Comp::AdHoc␤»
psch anyway, the core issue i had with adding the hint about the placeholder was, that placeholders that produce a Perl5Var swallow other issues with the placeholder at the moment, e.g. X::Placeholder::Mainline 13:31
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psch that's not really an issue with the hint, but more about Comp::Group and how we process them 13:32
how does grouping interact with NYI .pending, anyway? Comp::Group doesn't seem specced 13:33
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dalek ecs: 455c422 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S24-testing.pod:
throws_like also can have a description
 13:34
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dalek kudo/nom: eb1df63 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | lib/Test.pm:
throws_like can also have a description
 13:36
masak some newlines missing in this error message? gist.github.com/masak/f4a2feb098e28197c1fa 13:37
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masak the extra space before each signature indicates to me the newlines were intended? 13:38
shall I open a ticket for this?
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masak also, ++ to everyone who was involved in the Levenshtein distance thing. it's a thing of beauty. 13:38
it's so obviously what an error message should have. 13:39
lizmat do we have that for methods now?
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lizmat remembers putting that on her list once, a while ago, but got blocked 13:40
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pmurias jnthn: is :$want supposed to influence semantics or is it just an optimalization hint? 13:43
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jnthn pmurias: It can influence semantics. Of note, it can control the choice of a QAST::Want node branch, and Rakudo (maybe NQP too) uses it to do different things in/out of sink context. 13:44
psch masak: the newline is missing in Optimizer.nqp:1534 in the for
psch .oO( i don't want to open a PR for 4 characters... ) 13:45
pmurias jnthn: what I care about is when compiling ifs do I have to pass the want (context?) to both branches in exactly the same way
masak psch: thanks. fixing. 13:46
jnthn pmurias: Well, they're both in the same context, so I'd say so
pmurias: Though given you're asking I think I'm missing some subtlety in your question :) 13:47
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pmurias I seem to have got confused about something, too much looking at all the $il.append(...) ;) 13:48
timotimo tadzik: btw, you should totally run your steroids game on moar-jit and tell us what the bail log looks like, as well as the performance :) 13:49
jnthn Hm, some day we really should JIT native calls...
timotimo yeah, that'd be neat 13:50
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timotimo masak: i'm glad you're enjoying the hell out of the levenshtein error message thing i kicked off :D 13:51
.o( yeah! i'm taking all the praise! )
masak timotimo++ # Levenshtein
psch++ # finsing that place in Optimizer.nqp -- building a fix now 13:52
pmurias I'm jealous of the nice rakudo error messages, as I'm mostly using nqp :(
timotimo masak: twitter.com/loltimo/status/417302567236816897 ← :D 13:53
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masak timotimo: :) 13:53
dalek kudo/nom: 287e49e | masak++ | src/Perl6/Optimizer.nqp:
spread some newline love in between signatures
 13:56
jnthn timotimo: *lol*
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lizmat :-) 14:01
too bad the Levenshtein distance is not 666 :-)
lizmat just found another case of 'dies_ok' that was dying for the wrong reason 14:02
jnthn: related, do we want to check for X::AdHoc exceptions? 14:03
as generated by nqp::die()
e.g. in src/Perl6/Metamodel/RoleToClassApplier.nqp
or do you think it makes sense to turn these into proper Exceptions ? 14:04
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jnthn lizmat: I think we'd like to converge towards everything the langauge/compiler produces being typed 14:05
masak heh -- under what conditions does one get "Premature heredoc consumption"?
timotimo the langauge is up to 11
masak (also, why no file and line number? grmbl.)
masak injects `BEGIN say` into his code
timotimo masak: it occurs to me that it's pretty cool we can even do that 14:06
jnthn masak: Anything that tries to run an expression at BEGIN time I guess
masak: And the heredoc text is after the expr or blorst in question
So we didn't parse it befoer trying to use it
masak ah, found it.
golfing. 14:07
timotimo that error message could get the LTA treatment
jnthn Weird it misses a file/line
Well, the error tells you what's wrong.
I mean, you know it's about a heredoc at least :)
timotimo yeah, but "premature" could mean anything
jnthn Mebbe the word doesn't conjure the right idea, yeah... Hmm. 14:08
timotimo "tried to use a heredoc's content before it was parsed fully"
jnthn Yeah
masak golfed: gist.github.com/masak/83df9c4ad3a859730109 14:10
if I can get a ruling on whether that is OK, I can submit a rakudobug.
jnthn Oh, I wondered if it's constant 14:12
No, I can't see that being OK.
masak you can't?
jnthn No; we evaluate constants at BEGIN time
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jnthn It's one of those "would be nice if it could work but I can't see how to pull it off" things 14:13
masak oh, so if I do `constant B = qq:to/END/ ~ <newline> <heredoc> END <newline> "";`, then we're all fine? 14:14
yeah, that works here.
jnthn If it's finished parsing the heredoc by the time it compiles the expression, you're good.
masak something here is exceedingly silly.
I mean, I hear what you're saying.
but...
jnthn Heredocs are, from a parsing perspective, exceedingly silly. :/ 14:15
masak the failure mode seems to be "compiler can't be arsed to parse the heredoc because the constant needs the value right now and looking at the next few lines is a really hard problem" :P
jnthn Well, what if the constant gets used later on on the same line? 14:16
masak point.
m: constant W = W; say "alive"
camelia rakudo-moar 137879: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot invoke null object␤»
masak submits rakudobug
:D
jnthn That one *is* a bug, but already in there :P
masak m: constant W = W * 18; say "alive"
camelia rakudo-moar 137879: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot invoke null object␤»
jnthn I *think*
masak m: constant W = "hey, does {W} work?"; say "alive" 14:17
camelia rakudo-moar 137879: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot invoke null object␤»
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masak m: constant W = EVAL "W"; say "alive" 14:17
camelia rakudo-moar 137879: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling EVAL_0␤Undeclared name:␤ W used at line 1␤␤»
masak meh.
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masak anyway, the answer to "what if the constant is used in the heredoc" seems to me to be "well, *then* we give an error. not in the general case!" 14:18
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pmurias why isn't the SORRY! error message style used in nqp? 14:19
masak m: class C { has $x, $y }
camelia rakudo-moar 137879: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/LU5fSc5GbT␤Variable '$y' is not declared␤at /tmp/LU5fSc5GbT:1␤------> class C { has $x, $y⏏ }␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤»
jnthn I'd be happy to be shown a sane solution to heredoc in constant. I don't *like* it. 14:20
masak that one could do with a better error message -- like "did you mean to put parens around those variables? `has ($x, $y);`"
jnthn I just don't see a good way to do it that doesn't have a bunch of other issues...
std: class C { has $x, $y } 14:21
camelia std 81e0d07: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable $y is not predeclared (declarators are tighter than comma, so maybe your 'has' signature needs parens?) at /tmp/irz2GByYeC line 1:␤------> class C { has $x, ⏏$y }␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 126m␤»
jnthn Steal that error! :)
pmurias: Because nobody implemented it yet.
pmurias: Because implementing things takes time and NQP isn't user-facing enough for it to be worth spending the time on this compared to other things. 14:22
masak jnthn: suggested way to make it work: parser sees that it's about to give a value to the constant, but in order to do that it needs to parse a heredoc first, so it parses the heredoc and then sets the value of the constant.
moritz that kinda goes against both our control flow, and the concept of compile time being immediate compile time
jnthn masak: Yes, when I said "suggestion" I meant "patch". I can see how to do it waving my hands. :)
masak ok, got it ;) 14:23
jnthn pmurias: If it annoys you enough you want to patch it, please do go ahead.
masak moritz: I see it as breaking a rule in order to reach up to user expectations.
timotimo and then we put a { BEGIN 1234 } inside the heredoc's string :D
masak moritz: I certainly expected that one to work; only after having it explained to me did I even perceive the problem. 14:24
jnthn timotimo: Yes, I'm seeing us "fixing" this and then masak finding 20 new things to submit because of the hack to make it work... :)
pmurias what I thinking is shouldn't the "fancy" SORRY error messages be something that can be reused by different grammar 14:25
* grammars
jnthn As moritz said, it does break a relatively deep assumption...
pmurias: I'm not sure. Exposing the highwater stuff is something we've pondered in the past...
masak ok, if you think the fix isn't going to lead anywhere good, then let's skip it. 14:26
I'm aware I'm discussing this with people who are better versed in the internals than I. 14:27
I'm just reporting the expectations of a lowly userland coder. :>
jnthn Well, I agree on the expectations... I'm just struggling on how to meet them without making some nice problems. 14:28
uh
some *new* problems
:)
dalek p-js: c707a6d | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/ (2 files):
Implement the if and unless ops. (pass tests 2,3,4)
 14:30
p-js: dfa81ce | (Pawel Murias)++ | TODO:
Update TODO.
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masak std: class C { has ($.x, $.y) is rw; } 15:00
camelia std 81e0d07: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 125m␤»
masak m: class C { has ($.x, $.y) is rw; } 15:01
camelia rakudo-moar 287e49: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/OCu5FIHkCz␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/OCu5FIHkCz:1␤------> class C { has ($.x, $.y) ⏏is rw; }␤ expecting any of:␤ scoped declarator␤ formal paramete…»
masak submits rakudobug
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dalek ast: 3076e09 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | integration/advent20 (15 files):
dies_ok -> throws_like cleanup, part 1
 15:19
lizmat FWIW, this fixes several cases of dies_ok tests that were dying for the wrong reason
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masak throws one more coin into the "masak was golfing something, but it turned out to be a bug in masak, not in Rakudo" piggy-bank 15:28
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donaldh Truly bizarre. If I add an int field to SixModelObject then the JVM crashes, If I add a long or object field then it's fine. 15:58
jnthn o.O 15:59
Some weird alignment fail, maybe...
donaldh Well I was thinking that, but object references are the same size as ints, no?
compressed oops and all. 16:01
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jnthn ah, true 16:03
OK, so it's just bizzare :)
.oO( That's why they call it "oops"... )
 16:04
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donaldh So I can store SC indices in SixModelObject using an Integer, which sucks, but is still more efficient than a separate HashMap, both in space and time. 16:06
jnthn Well, space ways, for objects that are in an SC... 16:14
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jnthn *space wise 16:15
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sjn yay, bfoy is tweeting about a 2013 jnthn-rant \o/ 16:29
bdfoy*
sjn wonders if this is a good thing; twitter.com/briandfoy_perl/status/...9311715330 16:31
hm. maybe it is. /me goes back to lurk-mode 16:32
jnthn Well, I vastly prefer where we are now than where we were then.
sjn jnthn: yeah, figured that
geekosaur we left pugs behind but it played a very important role in getting us here,,, 16:34
FROGGS_ like Parrot
sjn has managed to stay optimistic about perl6 mostly because of being proficient at putting history into the "let's learn from that" box 16:35
FROGGS_ there wouldn't be a good Perl 6 implementation without Parrot
sjn: true
pmurias it's hard to say if the other Perl 6 implementations couldn't evolve towards what rakudo is today via a different route 16:39
s/couldn't evolve/couldn't have evolved/ 16:40
what's good about rakudo is that it got a lot of different people working together 16:41
TimToady m: say (*.name).Str 16:52
camelia rakudo-moar 287e49: OUTPUT«WhateverCode.new()␤»
TimToady m: say *.name
camelia rakudo-moar 287e49: OUTPUT«WhateverCode.new()␤»
TimToady I'm thinking the first of those should warn, rather than just delegating to .gist 16:53
then maybe *.name ~~ /pos/ would have given better feedback
donaldh Okay, so turned off compressed oops with -XX:-UseCompressedOops and no longer get a JVM crash. Almost enough info for a useful bug report to Oracle. 16:54
dalek blets: ae3d871 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/ (5 files):
chapter assignement on ops tablet
 16:56
diakopter "here's my golfed repro instance; sorry for the 9MB .jar"
16:57 raiph left, denis_boyun_ joined
donaldh was thinking more along the lines of "Here's a github repo, knock yourselves out." 16:58
donaldh will try a different arch first, to see if it's OSX specific. 16:59
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dalek blets: 805bc72 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/tablet-4-operators.txt:
links cant touch headings
 17:15
17:15 nbrown joined 17:19 nbrown left 17:22 brrt joined
dalek blets: 85efc32 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/tablet-4-operators.txt:
new op order
 17:22
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TimToady m: class A { has $!foo = 42; multi sub sayfoo(A \this) is export { say this!foo } }; import A; sayfoo(A.new) 17:44
camelia rakudo-moar 287e49: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/dxSiySVjvS␤No such private method 'foo' for invocant of type 'A'␤at /tmp/dxSiySVjvS:1␤------> ub sayfoo(A \this) is export { say this!⏏foo } }; import A; sayfoo(A.new)␤»
TimToady hmm 17:45
should that work?
(we were discussing this on #moarvm, but it's more of a language issue) 17:46
that is, should a multi sub defined inside a class have private trusted access to a parameter object's attributes 17:47
I can't think of a good reason why not, offhand, other than we'd have to implement it :) 17:48
jnthn Other question is if we're meant to create private methods per attribute...or some other trick :)
TimToady could perhaps autogen on seeing this!foo
jnthn Really we'd like to optimize it into nqp::getattr(...), of course 17:50
Which in turn under spesh/JIT can become something that's a pointer offset
TimToady right, we want it fast, and there's no reason not to trust code inside the class 17:51
so it's really a matter of notation
is this!foo sufficient notation given we know it's A, or do we need to annotate the parameter somehow further 17:52
and many of these will have both a this and a that parameter
currently I suppose many things are written this.foo that are really intended to be this!foo, that is, non-virtual 17:54
jnthn At present, if you don't quality it, I think we take the encosing package
So class Foo { ...blah... self!x() } really means self!Foo::x
TimToady so the trust already there, but not the mechanism, maybe
jnthn Since they're non-virtual, the (static) optimizer already resolves them into, essentially, sub calls.
The missing mechanism is for accessing attributes via private method syntax. 17:55
TimToady I'm thinking that would be very useful for optimization of our operators
so we know which ones don't have to take virtuality into account, and which do, based on ! vs . 17:56
instead of relying on class finality to decide that, which is hard
jnthn Well, many operators today are expressed in nqp:: ops ;)
17:57 zakharyas joined
TimToady indeed, so maybe this is really a way to write them in something that is a little less not quite :) 17:57
jnthn If we put this in *and* optimize it well, we might be able to make them prettier and keep the speed benefit and give others writing custom ops a good way to do it :)
'cus we don't want folks using nqp::foo outside of the Rakudo built-ins, really...
TimToady nodnod 17:58
or is that shakeshake...
m: class A { has $!foo = 42; multi sub sayfoo(A \this) is export { say this!A::foo } }; import A; sayfoo(A.new) 18:00
camelia rakudo-moar 287e49: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/5qDYSQNCC3␤No such private method 'foo' for invocant of type 'A'␤at /tmp/5qDYSQNCC3:1␤------> ub sayfoo(A \this) is export { say this!⏏A::foo } }; import A; sayfoo(A.new)␤»
TimToady m: class A { trusts A; has $!foo = 42; multi sub sayfoo(A \this) is export { say this!A::foo } }; import A; sayfoo(A.new) 18:01
camelia rakudo-moar 287e49: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/BRnCGlkcR8␤No such private method 'foo' for invocant of type 'A'␤at /tmp/BRnCGlkcR8:1␤------> ub sayfoo(A \this) is export { say this!⏏A::foo } }; import A; sayfoo(A.new)␤»
TimToady how do we support private methods in the general case? or is that NYI? 18:02
jnthn m: class A { method !private() { say 'shhh!' }; method public() { self!private() } }; A.public 18:03
camelia rakudo-moar 287e49: OUTPUT«shhh!␤»
jnthn m: class A { method !private() { say 'shhh!' }; method public() { self!privates() } }; A.public 18:04
camelia rakudo-moar 287e49: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/tUCeZT4CUK␤No such private method 'privates' for invocant of type 'A'␤at /tmp/tUCeZT4CUK:1␤------> hh!' }; method public() { self!privates(⏏) } }; A.public␤»
diakopter hehehe
jnthn Take advantage of non-virtualness to give errors on typos :)
TimToady but we don't have an autogen of a !private accessor yet for attrs?
jnthn Correct.
TimToady gotcha
but as you say, we almost don't need on, if we just translate to nqp:: 18:05
*one
offhand I don't see a problem with bypassing the autogen entirely 18:06
jnthn Yeah, only trouble is if folks try and access it from the outside...otoh then there'd have to be a "trusts"
So maybe we just auto-gen them if we see that
TimToady well, but a class implicitly trusts itself...
so you'd always autogen them :) 18:07
18:07 klaas-janstol left
jnthn I meant "a use of the trusts trait" :P 18:07
TimToady well, you could remark upon the presence of this!foo
oh, okay
jnthn Oh, I think I see the confusion...
18:07 brrt left
TimToady me too :) 18:07
jnthn What I more meant was that within a class, we can easily know which attributes we might need private accessors for.
So it's only in the trusts FooOtherThing case that we might want to auto-gen them to make things we can't have figured out by composition time (at the closing }) work out. 18:08
TimToady right, though we might have noticed the !foo usages in the other class as well, unless we want to allow !"$foo"() 18:09
in which case we'd have to generate all of them
jnthn Yeah, I was hoping we might get away with having to generate all of them... 18:10
TimToady well, generating all of them is easier on some level than generating some of them :)
and it's not like they're huge
TimToady will leave that decision up to the Harried Implementor :) 18:11
jnthn True, though across the whole CORE.setting they add up... 18:12
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TimToady takes off the hat of Lazy Language Designer, and starts thinking about list abstraction again, and sweating... 18:12
but in general, I like it whenever the circularity saw can be moved from the setting to the codegen :) 18:14
jnthn thinks its time for some dinner :) 18:15
bbiab
TimToady it's still a longterm goal of mine to get the setting written in Pure Perl 6, but I understand the usefulness of the nqp model too 18:16
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TimToady goes back to coffee/backlog mode 18:16
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timotimo o/ 18:26
TimToady \o 18:28
avuserow hey, someone mentioned a bug with Compress::Snappy a few days ago IIRC? If someone could open an issue, I'll see about fixing it
(also one of these days, I should muse about Bufs and Blobs and my interactions/pains with them when writing Compress::Snappy) 18:29
18:29 nbrown left
TimToady considers Bufs and Blobs to still be a WIP 18:30
timotimo sadly they seem to be
dalek ecs: 4c7c7d0 | TimToady++ | S99-glossary.pod:
define WIP
 18:32
raiph Anyone comments? "rakudo is still pretty damn slow, frankly. ... From my personal experiments, from the first day moarvm came out to now, the speed is at best twice as good, when what would be hoped would be ten times as good. Or even one hundred times." www.reddit.com/r/perl6/comments/2co...proves_at/ 18:33
cjqwesc
TimToady we agree completely :) 18:34
timotimo i'm writing a little bit on that 18:35
TimToady however, when we improve the compiler to the point where it runs P6 as fast as NQP, we'll definitely be pretty zippy
avuserow TimToady: I'm fine with Bufs and Blobs being WIP. I'm hoping that sharing what I ran into previously will positively influence how they interact with NativeCall and other things :) 18:36
TimToady sure, we want to know where the sticky wickets are 18:37
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diakopter raiph: u just looking to stimulate downvotes? :) 18:39
"57 seconds for a Rakudo build (used to be 1:15)" ... I thought it used to be 5-6 minutes 18:42
jnthn diakopter: That was talking about improvement in the space of a 1-2 week period... 18:43
diakopter ah :)
<- reading too slowly/quickly
timotimo i posted on that thread 18:44
jnthn "Rakudo's speed/ram performance improves at fastest rate since optimization work began" makes a bunch of improvements that mostly affect compilation speed sound more general than many of them were, tbh. 18:46
They helped with some grammars.
And of course, compilation speed influences how fast things feel. 18:47
timotimo did anybody build the rakudo-specific caphash thing yet? i seem to recall froggs did that?
jnthn timotimo: I didn't do it...
I don't remember seeing it done but maybe it was.
18:47 denis_boyun_ left
timotimo hmm, seems like i was wrong 18:48
hm. i'm sitting next to two 3d printers
i don't have an idea what i could print, though :\
TimToady obviously, another 3d printer 18:49
extra credit for working sex into it
18:52 spider-mario left
diakopter want: "3d printer" that makes large things from duct tape and baling wire and glue and trash 18:53
timotimo that would be way cool.
TimToady I thought you were supposed to feed those things to Mr Fusion
masak std: constant (a, b, c) = 1, 2, 3;
camelia std 81e0d07: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Missing symbol in constant declaration at /tmp/T1vqsNO_Z3 line 1:␤------> constant ⏏(a, b, c) = 1, 2, 3;␤Missing initializer on constant declaration at /tmp/T1vqsNO_Z3 line 1:␤------> constant …» 18:54
TimToady hey, enum has to be better at something
on top of which, I really hate it when people use list initialization to set up a bunch of complete unrelated items, especially since it decouples the name from the value, unless you line them up on the next line 18:57
so if the constants are in fact unrelated, I'd much rather see three constant declarations on three lines
that's not to say we couldn't support the notation here, but I'm not in a hurry :) 18:58
masak *nod* 19:00
TimToady but if the constants are in fact related, you might well get more bang for the buck out of an enum, like a typename
masak I just have a piece of code here with literally 10 lines, all starting with `constant`
TimToady maybe you should write a macro :P 19:01
masak they're all constants, to be sure, but the JavaScript programmer in me helpfully suggested that those 10 declarations maybe could be 1.
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masak TimToady: that should totally be writable as a macro, yes. 19:01
by the way, I can feel my focus turn back to macros. I fully intent to bring that grant to completion. ^H
though we already know we want something a fair bit different from what the grant talks about. 19:02
(which is fine, IMO)
timotimo glad to hear it :)
TimToady Cool! I mean...Mu!
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diakopter want: macros that can use regex-genex-ish to permute names and types/formulas 19:11
masak yeah, it's increasingly clear that macros should hook into the grammar level. 19:12
tadzik timotimo: hehe, will try :)
masak right now we have them as hooking into (parsed) function calls, which is right for some things but not for a big class of things. 19:13
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tadzik timotimo: do you happen to have a rakudobrew config for moar-jit? 19:18
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timotimo no; --moar-option=--enable-jit should be enough 19:18
you can supply that even for rakudo-Configure.pl 19:19
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timotimo hm. so what do i supply for bench time to get accurate data and lots of it? 19:19
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timotimo i suppose i'll up the --runs and up the --enough-time 19:20
tadzik so master branches are alright? 19:22
timotimo yes
tadzik awesome :)
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timotimo we merged moar-jit into master at the beginning of the week 19:22
jnthn Aye. Still needs explicit --enable-jit, bu tit's in theer 19:23
so typing...
tadzik tit's in there? :> 19:24
I mean, :o
diakopter :O
19:25 AforAcronym joined
masak IRC needs a spell checker. 19:25
19:26 nbrown joined
timotimo this might take a long while, but i have no use for my desktop otherwise. 19:26
timotimo runs rakudo-moar from 2014.01 through 2014.07
diakopter (space heater)++
FROGGS_ timotimo++ # levenshtein 19:29
masak timotimo++ # levhensetin :) 19:30
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timotimo diakopter: i'm far away from it at the moment, so it's of no consequence to me personally :) 19:34
dalek kudo/nom: af5df3e | TimToady++ | src/core/Code.pm:
Warn on Str(Code) coercion

This almost always indicates a mistake, and the message can be suppressed by use of .gist or .perl, if the behavior is intended.
TimToady $ ./perl6 -e '*.name ~~ /pos/' 19:39
Code object coerced to string (please use .gist or .perl to do that in any !cursor_init at gen/moar/stage2/QRegex.nqp:598
dalek kudo/nom: ed7e8d3 | TimToady++ | src/core/Code.pm:
lost closing paren
 19:40
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TimToady the traceback leaves something to be desired though 19:40
jnthn Yes, I'm curious why it ends up there... 19:41
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TimToady apparently doesn't escape nqp-land 19:44
a normal coercion produces a correct traceback, so somethingin QRegex maybe
is there a CONTROL that is trapping warnings inadvertently? 19:45
jnthn Can't think of one
19:45 nbrown left
TimToady well, you'd think it would just disappear in that case anyway 19:45
timotimo m: next 19:46
camelia ( no output )
timotimo m: last
camelia ( no output )
TimToady m: nextsame 19:47
camelia rakudo-moar 287e49: OUTPUT«nextsame is not in the dynamic scope of a dispatcher␤ in block at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:639␤ in block at /tmp/LqNijE9RBZ:1␤␤»
19:47 nbrown_ left
TimToady m: say "here"; redo 19:47
camelia rakudo-moar 287e49: OUTPUT«here␤»
TimToady o.O
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timotimo haha, wat. 19:47
jnthn m: say "here"; redo; say 'survived';
camelia rakudo-moar 287e49: OUTPUT«here␤»
FROGGS_ it misses its handler and then exits 19:48
jnthn hm, should be an error...
timotimo TimToady: i suppose you tried that in the repl, too?
jnthn Yes, it should end up in print_control...
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TimToady well, our repl is still really just a total kludge 19:49
it wants to be integrated with the parser 19:50
timotimo gist.github.com/timo/2b490027d6473340e4e1
jnthn bah...did it do a "redo" in the REPL loop and confuse itself? 19:51
timotimo :D
it'd really be good if our repl would be more clever, then the iperl6 kernel thingie wouldn't be as kludgy as well (hopefully)
TimToady we should rely on the parse to tell the repl when to execute the next top-level statement 19:52
jnthn The REPL is one of the least changed things since I started working on Rakudo :) 19:53
TimToady that would be a good mid-level project for someone trying to move on from LHF
19:53 ventica2 left
jnthn aye 19:54
TimToady basically, at the point where STD calls .moreinput is where the REPL would decide whether to E
FROGGS_ we have no .moreinput in rakudo :/ 19:55
(yet)
TimToady the L part is implicit in parsing statements at the top level 19:56
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TimToady yes, that's one of the dusty corners where rakudo has yet to catch up to STD 19:57
FROGGS_ hmmm, I almost think I've produced a measurable speedup of rakudo's stage parse O.o
timotimo well ... it'll have to parse a new statement and then directly execute it, even though it's not supposed to be BEGIN time ... no? 19:58
jnthn FROGGS_: ooh? 19:59
20:00 brrt left
FROGGS_ jnthn: yeah, in method_def it does not call $*W.dissect_longname now when it sees a colonpair, it just builds the method name string like deflongname does it 20:00
TimToady timotimo: well, it only happens at the top level, so unless there's something that has to happen at CHECK time (like deal with forward refs on sub calls), it's equivalent
20:00 lichtkind left
timotimo ah 20:00
fair enough 20:01
20:01 rurban1 left
TimToady and of course anything BEGIN that happens later will be out of sequence with what came before, but that's the price for a repl 20:02
the other tricky bit is going on when there's a parse error 20:04
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TimToady now I'm imagining a repl that can suspend on delayed decls "previous execution suspended on call to foo(); please define it to continue" 20:06
dalek kudo/nom: 3c6bcff | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/Perl6/Actions.nqp:
canonicalize method names with colonpairs, to fit grammar rule names

We turned rule names like term:sym«<=» into term:sym<<=> internally but we forgot to do the same with action methods. This meant that when the rule matched the action method was *not* called.		 20:07
TimToady at some point a repl becomes a self-parody though
the pythonistas haven't got the joke yet 20:08
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FROGGS_ >>> if you say so :o) 20:09
nwc10 FROGGS_: I'm not quite following (what's new then) - is that commit a behaviour bugfix, or just a performance bug fix?
FROGGS_ nwc10: behaviour 20:10
m: grammar G { token TOP { <a> }; proto token a {*}; token a:sym«<foo>» { <sym> } }; class A { method a:sym«<foo>»($/) { say("awesome") } }; G.parse("<foo>", :actions(A) )
camelia ( no output )
FROGGS_ this is meant to say "awesome"
nwc10 are there tests for this?
FROGGS_ no
nwc10 oh. 20:11
jnthn (But there should be... :))
FROGGS_ as always :o) 20:12
PerlJam FROGGS_: you've been working on that one for at least 3 days. FROGGS++ for finally finding and fixing it.
20:12 rindolf left
FROGGS_ but yeah, I will add one in a sec... # nwc10++ :o) 20:12
PerlJam: well, I got a almost-fix yesternight, but was too tired
jnthn FROGGS_++ is a very persistent bug fixer :) 20:14
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timotimo it sounds great that it also improves performance :) 20:17
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FROGGS_ m: class Foo { method special_variable:sym['$<'] { } } 20:18
camelia ( no output )
20:19 iarna left 20:20 iarna joined
FROGGS_ m: grammar Foo { token special_variable:sym["foo"] { } }; say Foo.^methods(:local) 20:23
camelia rakudo-moar 287e49: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot find method 'ast'␤»
FROGGS_ (that is not due to my patch)
20:26 spider-mario joined 20:31 mj41 joined 20:34 rurban1 joined
dalek blets: afdf4bb | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/tablet-4-operators.txt:
even better ordering
 20:34
kudo/nom: 50c7653 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/Perl6/Actions.nqp:
point out that we cannot handle all colonpairs yet

Before a token foo:sym["bar"] leaked internal information, now it states that "bar" is too complex to use it as a name. This also makes the behaviour consistant in grammars and classes.		 20:38
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dalek rl6-bench: 807c8e8 | jnthn++ | bench:
Don't assume #! handling is portable.

This is one tiny, easily applyable, improvement that helps get things working on Windows.		 20:47
20:49 rurban1 left 20:54 colomon left
dalek ast: 20d6f3b | (Tobias Leich)++ | S05-grammar/action-stubs.t:
test colonpairs in tokens/ation methods
 21:00
21:03 colomon joined 21:04 nbrown_ joined 21:08 gfldex left, nbrown_ left
dalek ecs: 3625f13 | (Stéphane Payrard)++ | S99-glossary.pod:
Update S99-glossary.pod

Added MI as short for Multiple inheritance (used in github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/blob/mast...6opaque.h)		 21:10
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dalek kudo/nom: b982bdd | Mouq++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:
Somewhat improve rare error
 21:19
rl6-bench: 9ebd6cd | jnthn++ | timeall:
A quotes fixup for invoking with Windows shell.
 21:21
rl6-bench: 32b35bf | jnthn++ | compilers.pl:
Fix to cope with Perl 5 on Windows install path.

Still have to build this quite manually on Windows for perl6-bench, but this does at least mean once you've done that it'll be invoked correctly.
21:22 aindilis joined
TimToady m: *.name ~~ /pos/ 21:25
camelia rakudo-moar 3c6bcf: OUTPUT«Code object coerced to string (please use .gist or .perl to do that) in any !cursor_init at gen/moar/stage2/QRegex.nqp:598␤␤»
Mouq m: [ (1,2,3), (4,) ].tree.perl.say 21:26
camelia rakudo-moar 3c6bcf: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 3, 4).list␤»
Mouq m: [ (1,2,3), (4,) ].tree(2).perl.say
camelia rakudo-moar 3c6bcf: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 3, 4).list␤»
Mouq ...?
21:28 BenGoldberg joined
Mouq m: ( (1,2,3), (4,) ).tree(2).perl.say #wtf 21:28
camelia rakudo-moar 3c6bcf: OUTPUT«(LoL.new(1, 2, 3).item, LoL.new(4).item).list␤»
Mouq That doesn't seem right at *all* 21:29
21:30 rurban2 left
TimToady [] flattens 21:30
m: ( (1,2,3), (4,) ).tree(1..2).perl.say 21:31
camelia rakudo-moar 3c6bcf: OUTPUT«(LoL.new(1, 2, 3).item, LoL.new(4).item).list␤»
TimToady m: ( (1,2,3), (4,) ).tree(1).perl.say
camelia rakudo-moar 3c6bcf: OUTPUT«LoL.new($(1, 2, 3), $(4,))␤»
Mouq m: ( (1,2,3), (4,) ).tree({$_ ~~ 1..2|).perl.say 21:32
camelia rakudo-moar 50c765: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/CPznxAUEYi␤Bogus statement␤at /tmp/CPznxAUEYi:1␤------> ( (1,2,3), (4,) ).tree({$_ ~~ 1..2|⏏).perl.say␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix stopper␤…»
TimToady m: ( (1,2,3), (4,) ).tree(1,2).perl.say
camelia rakudo-moar 50c765: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'tree'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Any:U: *%_)␤:(Any:D: *%_)␤:(Any:D: Cool $count, *%_)␤:(Any:D: &c, *%_)␤ in block at /tmp/LfrM4zPY9s:1␤␤»
Mouq m: ( (1,2,3), (4,) ).tree({$_ ~~ 1..2}).perl.say
camelia rakudo-moar 50c765: OUTPUT«(Bool::True, Bool::False).list␤»
BenGoldberg m: say $(1..3);
camelia rakudo-moar 50c765: OUTPUT«1..3␤»
TimToady m: ( (1,2,3), (4,) ).tree(1000..1001).perl.say
camelia rakudo-moar 50c765: OUTPUT«(LoL.new(1, 2, 3).item, LoL.new(4).item).list␤»
TimToady that's +(1000..1001) :/
I don't think .tree is implemented anywhere close to spec yet 21:33
last I knew, it could only do a lol impression
dalek p-js: 44817ff | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/ (4 files):
Pass test 7.

Add a special $T_BOOL want type which produces something we can test for truth in javascript. QAST::Compiler.boolify is replaced with coersions to this type. Implement nqp::istrue, nqp::falsey, nqp::isle_n, nqp::concat. Add &ok and &plan to the mini-setting.		 21:39
p-js: c75badb | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/bin/run_tests:
Add passing test 8 to run_tests.
 21:41
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dalek ecs: 63a4830 | (Stéphane Payrard)++ | S99-glossary.pod:
Glossary: opcode, role, stable...
 21:44
Mouq pmurias++ 21:46
dalek ast: bf6c3cb | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | integration/ (6 files):
More dies_ok -> throws_like cleanup
 21:48
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dalek kudo/HyperWat: d7808f5 | Mouq++ | src/ (5 files):
method postcircumfix:<( )> becomes method invoke

per irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-07-08#i_8992020		 21:56
21:56 dalek left
Mouq Sorry dalek :( 21:56
21:57 dalek joined, ChanServ sets mode: +v dalek
Mouq Relevant commit: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/87...d16fc3566e 21:57
So that means that ** + 1 works, and ** + ** is the same as * + ** or ** + ** becase I don't know exactly what either of things should mean 21:58
masak the conservative thing would be to make it a compile error until we do know what they should mean :) 21:59
I'd rather we guess right later without having guessed wrong first.
Mouq I considered that, I was hoping there would be somekind of epiphany from #perl6 :) I guess that's the way to go for now 22:00
masak Mouq: when I saw you write about it earlier today, I almost replied "no-one knows what ** does because no-one's ever implemented it". then I noticed that you *were* implementing it, so I didn't say anything. but I think it still holds. :) 22:01
TimToady well, it makes no sense to write a subscript [1; **; 2; **; 3] either
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TimToady so I think ** is 'non associative' 22:02
unless we go whole hog on pattern matching
lizmat TimToady: wrt to EVAL not poisoning
wouldn't a simple flag already serve a lot of this?
EVAL "foo" :clean 22:03
EVAL "foo" :remedy # as opposed to poisoning
TimToady that does some of it, but I'm thinking more EVAL "$a", :uses<$a>
er, '$a'
lizmat hehe.. -) 22:04
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lizmat OTOH, would an EVAL be able to deopt a previously jitted scope at runtime? 22:05
jnthn: ^^^
timotimo we can deopt out of both jitted and spesh'd bytecode 22:06
masak I had it as it never trying to opt in the first place if there's an EVAL in there.
timotimo and invocations get a deoptpoint
the qast-level optimizer bails out when it sees EVAL
lizmat I'm more thinking on what I did earlier today:
TimToady I thought it had more to do with turning lexicals into locals
timotimo exactly
jnthn lizmat: Level error
lizmat EVAL "foo", :context(CALLER::CALLER::CALLER::CALLER::)
timotimo and inlining frames
jnthn lizmat: EVAL is about Perl6::Optimizer 22:07
timotimo what TimToady said
TimToady and if you know which lexicals will be used in the EVAL, then a :uses<$a> can pessimize just that lexical
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TimToady alternately, if the intend of 'my $a' is to be used in an eval, we could mark it on that end 22:07
*tent 22:08
jnthn TimToady: "my $a is context" or whatever we call that nowadays is enough for that :)
timotimo maybe even "is dynamic"
TimToady well, but maybe we don't want to make it visible to callees
lizmat is losing visibility and gets some sleep& 22:09
TimToady though I guess in the case of the testers it's off in a different scope anyway
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TimToady anyway, doesn't seem like it always needs to be an all-or-nothing decision 22:09
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masak CALLER::CALLER::CALLER::CALLER:: isn't worrying to me because it uses an internal thing. it's worrying because it couples that statement with the dynamic state of the call stack. (making refactors error-prone.) 22:11
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Ven o/o\o/, people. 22:14
masak look behind you, a three-headed monkey!
timotimo hey ven! :) 22:16
enjoying your vacation? 22:17
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Ven I pushed the learnxiny and am currently fighting with agda 22:17
so, yeah :D.
diakopter can you do anything with agda other than fight? 22:23
TimToady masak: the fundamental problem with making the constant lookahead for the heredoc is that it violates the one-pass parsing rule
masak TimToady: yes, I realize that. 22:24
TimToady in fact, STD used to do the lookahead like P5 does, and I rewrote it to avoid that :) 22:25
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TimToady in fact, the discussion at S02:4474 stems from that time 22:26
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html#line_4474
masak there are a couple of cases where we deviate from one-pass parsing. 22:27
what would be the nasty WAT of doing it in this case, and allowing constants to have heredocs?
dalek kudo/HyperWat: adc2971 | Mouq++ | src/ (3 files):
Make multiple **s or *s fail

Also make HyperWhatever !== Whatever due to issues it caused with multis that had candidates for both
masak reads that discussion
right, that "slight restriction" is OK by me. 22:28
and I realize `constant` has BEGIN semantics.
but... still... I wouldn't have expected constant + q:to to fail.
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TimToady nobody expects the spanish influenza 22:29
masak OK, let me put it like this:
when this becomes a FAQ, what will be the recommended workaround? 22:30
TimToady put the ; after the END
masak huh.
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masak OK, I can live with that, I think. 22:31
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dalek ecs: 9a3ba4d | (Stéphane Payrard)++ | S99-glossary.pod:
Update S99-glossary.pod

too many changes to track.		 22:38
Mouq Getting @a[**] to work on an unshaped @a is really tricky... I'm not sure it should be allowed
TimToady either, feel free to stub it out for now 22:39
it would probably have to be based on deepmap semantics, if allowed 22:40
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TimToady compares the insides of his eyelids & 22:46
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masak 'night, #perl6 22:48
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dalek kudo/HyperWat: 2856ec6 | Mouq++ | src/core/array_slice.pm:
Uncomment NYI for ** in postcircumfix:<[ ]>
 22:49
Mouq 'night masak
Ven diakopter: no. There's actually a theory that says that, once your program typechecks, you don't gain any information running it :) 22:51
diakopter is familiar with this theory 22:52
en When this channel gets really quite for a prolonged period of time, dalek should yell "exterminate" into this channel. 22:55
tadzik hah
en And on the offchance that a random number between 1 and 10 is 3, it yells "explain" into the channel. 22:56
Along with the previous statement.
diakopter "exterminate" is more a command-to-self than statement :p 22:57
dalek ecs: fe908aa | duff++ | S99-glossary.pod:
minor typos
 22:58
timotimo tadzik: did you try steroids jitted yet? :) 22:59
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tadzik timotimo: www.meemes.com/sites/default/files/...k=zlZ2eZAU 23:00
timotimo :) 23:02
tadzik it ran without problems, apparently
timotimo as it should
tadzik it seems to run at about the same speed as HEAD 23:03
2 "Too Slow" frames on jit vs 3 on HEAD
and of course I played it differently each time
I should design a steroids benchmark
timotimo did you build an MVM_JIT_LOG?
tadzik nope 23:04
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tadzik how do I do that? 23:04
timotimo env MVM_JIT_LOG=foobar.txt perl6-m ...
tadzik Segmentation fault (core dumped)
:)
timotimo: feather.perl6.nl/~tjs/foo.txt 23:05
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timotimo just adding the log should not make it segfault :\ 23:10
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timotimo oh 23:10
we haven't bumped moarvm/nqp recently 23:11
at least existspos has been implemented. probably more importantly: paramnamesused
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timotimo 6 BAIL: op <bool_I> 23:15
jnthn May be easy.
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timotimo add_sprite bails with getlex_no 23:16
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timotimo remove_sprite does the same 23:18
div_In makes a Num method bail 23:19
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timotimo wow, we get not only to speshing, but also to jitting METAOP_NEGATE 23:22
(fairly far towards the end, so it's probably barely prominent enough to make the cut or something
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