»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 25 June 2013.
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jepeway thanks, timotimo++, for the tiny tour 00:29
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lizmat good *, #perl6 09:58
and my has it been silent today so far
nine lizmat: shhhht 09:59
timotimo you're ruining it! =o 10:00
jnthn YEAH, BE QUIET. 10:01
nine stomps on the floor
lizmat whistles while walking away
FROGGS what what? somebody said something? 10:02
FROGGS yawns 10:03
jnthn has safely returned to The Other System. :)
FROGGS jnthn: what other system?
nine Should I a) finish my god damn master's thesis, b) continue working on Inline::Perl5 or c) go to Gamestage Expo with friends?
FROGGS a political system?
jnthn FROGGS: Yeah.
vendethiel nine: always d) 10:04
FROGGS nine: a)
jnthn FROGGS: Reference to "two systems, one country" :)
moritz m: say <thesis Inline::Perl5 Gamestage>.pick
camelia rakudo-moar 21a2a4: OUTPUT«Gamestage␤»
FROGGS lol
moritz nine: rakudo has a very clear opinion on that one :-)
nine Seems like Rakudo is not so keen on cuddling up to Perl 5 :)
lizmat wonders how moritz rigged camelia to do that 10:05
jnthn Nor your master's thesis, apparently... :P
FROGGS jnthn: is that just NYI or a NONO? Cannot create rw-accessors for natively typed attribute '$!keepBlanks'
moritz FROGGS: NYI
FROGGS k
jnthn FROGGS: NYI, and that stuff is basically top of my todo list by now
FROGGS jnthn: is it hard to implement? 10:06
jnthn Well, it depends on a bunch of other native-related pieces.
FROGGS jnthn: in case not, I'd like to do it this sunday, but I am thankful for pointers :o)
(not opaquepointers, mind)
hmmm :/
jnthn It's related to native arrays and is rw on natives and a bunch of other things
moritz FROGGS: I think it needs a bit of conceptual work
FROGGS ohh 10:07
jnthn Or at least, I want to solve all of thoese with a single mechanism.
FROGGS has no idea about that
moritz once we have rw for natives, creating the accessors that way is a SMOP
jnthn And yeah, it needs careful design, in so far as I need to be able to optimize away much of the cost of things either statically or in spesh...
Or probbably both
Not to mention coming up with something that will work ou tOK on JVM...
FROGGS okay, I leave it on your list then :o) 10:08
moritz consults the ROADMAP again
FROGGS: maybe you want to take a stab at :: and ::: in regexes? (backtracking control) 10:09
FROGGS moritz: that would mean I have to understand it first :o)
moritz FROGGS: :-)
FROGGS but yeah, I am open for these things
moritz 2 ** Rat/FatRat/Rational cleanup
what does that mean?
also, coercion types seem to occur twice 10:10
2 *** new syntax/semantics for coercion (jnthn)
2 *** coercion types
jnthn Should probably clarify that while the natives stuff is in theory top o my todo list, it's one of those Big Hard Things that needs a good chunk of time when I can concentrate, and that's hard to come by while I'm away on consulting gig. 10:11
So I'll probably continue picking off other little bits over the next couple of weeks. :) 10:12
After that I've got some free days at home when I can do Perl 6 stuff, teaching on a very familiar topic which won't be especially tiring, and then Austrian Perl Workshop and hackathon time. :) 10:13
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brrt \o 10:19
where's this ROADMAP thingy?
jnthn hi brrt
brrt (was backlogging) hi jnhtn :-)
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moritz brrt: docs/ROADAMP in rakudo 10:20
vendethiel is that up-to-date?
brrt m: <study hack play>.pick
camelia ( no output )
moritz vendethiel: pretty much
vendethiel: last updated end of July
vendethiel oh, okay :)
moritz: for regexps, @<> could be added 10:21
timotimo brrt: that's *so* symbolic 10:22
moritz vendethiel: what would that do?
brrt what is timotimo?
timotimo brrt: <study hack play>.pick → "no output"
vendethiel moritz: what's specced. basically, it forces the capture to be an array
brrt yeah i forgot to say. and if is asked again i couldn't get an answer 10:23
camelia is telling me to make up my own mind
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timotimo FROGGS: maybe you'd like to do the CAPHASH removal in rakudo's Match? 10:23
vendethiel moritz: it's useful when you have, ie [ @<a>='a' | <a> ] with regex a { \d + }
(so that $/[0] is always a list)
brrt sized/shaped arrays, is that native arrays? 10:25
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FROGGS timotimo: how? 10:26
timotimo: what is needed to do that?
lizmat jnthn: any suggestions wrt irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-09-13#i_9352237 ? 10:27
timotimo FROGGS: well, it's either understanding the original change in the nqp version and applying the same idea on the rakudo one 10:28
or ... er ...
FROGGS hmmm
jnthn lizmat: Whatever creates a thread or gets a thread probably needs to have nqp::scwbdisable() and nqp::scwbenable() or so wrapped around it
FROGGS timotimo: I can try I think 10:29
jnthn lizmat: So the write barrier wont be tripped;
lizmat hmmm...
since yesterday, I made $*THREAD lazy as well
now it says Missing serialize REPR function for REPR MVMOSHandle
that would point to STDOUT I guess...
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lizmat jnthn: making $*IN/$*OUT/$*ERR lazy, changes the error to: 10:37
Missing serialize REPR function for REPR ReentrantMutex
jnthn lizmat: I'm pretty sure those arne't a big saving, from the profiling I did... 10:39
lizmat but @*INC *is*, and that's being blocked now
jnthn Right, so we should fix what's needed for that, but not pile up more things that are going to be awkward. ;)
lizmat I'm all for that, but also out of my depth 10:40
jnthn lizmat: What branch is the busted patch in?
timotimo doesn't $*OUT get almost immediately vivified in almost every program anyway?
jnthn Or, can you push it to one?
I can look later this eveing, probbably.
lizmat you need to re-apply d05d411e968b3408420bbc7b02c1248f3dc005de 10:41
jnthn ah, ok
jnthn will get checkout -b bug && git cherry-pick d05d411 later, then :)
Dinner now &
lizmat and then run $ perl6 -e '"bar".IO.spurt("use Test"); CompUnit.new("bar").precomp'
jnthn: thank you 10:46
timotimo: not for $perl6 -e1
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timotimo jnthn: how do you feel about me building a string equivalent of "littlebigint"? 11:06
oh
i just now remember why i shouldn't try that yet ... uthash ... 11:07
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nine jnthn: why is this leaking memory? perl6 -e 'my $destroyed = 0; class Foo { method DESTROY {$destroyed++;} }; loop { Foo.new }' 11:11
jnthn: but this not? perl6 -e 'class Foo { method DESTROY {my $destroyed;$destroyed++} }; loop { Foo.new }'
carlin
.oO( Battle of the Little BigInt )
nine timotimo: do you happen to know how I can access force_gc() from Perl 6 code? Would help me with Inline::Perl5 tests. 11:13
carlin can you do nqp::force_gc()
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lizmat m: nqp::force_gc 11:13
camelia ( no output )
lizmat m: say nqp::force_gc
camelia rakudo-moar 21a2a4: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤arg expression cannot be void␤»
lizmat I guess the hookup is suboptimal still :-) 11:14
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timotimo with nqp:: ops, the training wheels are off :P 11:15
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lizmat I was wondering whether something like: $*SCHEDULER.cue: :every(.1), { nqp::force_gc } could provide something close to timely destruction 11:18
timotimo don't forget each gc run will freeze all threads for a bit
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lizmat yes, I realize that 11:19
but having this, *will* mean people will use it 11:20
timotimo well ... damn ;)
people be crazy
lizmat hmmm... I just realize there is no mention of Proc::Async in the Changelog 11:21
timotimo i think forcing gc often would make our generational hypothesis b0rk
because short-lived objects are more likely to be promoted to the gen2 if we GC more often
lizmat that's something new in this month's release, isn't it?
I've never said it would be sensible :-)
nine timotimo: thanks, seems to work 11:23
dalek kudo/nom: a278a2a | moritz++ | docs/ROADMAP:
update ROADMAP

  * add @<> regex feature, vendethiel++
  * remove duplicate mention of coercions
timotimo nine: er, i didn't do anything %) 11:24
moritz lizmat: Proc::Async was added 2014-08-11
lizmat so it was in the previous release, but not documented as such ? 11:25
moritz lizmat: correct
lizmat: I can add it if you want
nine ah
carlin: thanks, seems to work
lizmat moritz: was just doing that
moritz lizmat: ok, I'll let you do it
lizmat "+ added experimental support for Proc::Async, MoarVM only for now" 11:26
ok?
moritz ok 11:27
carlin nine: I think lizmat++ was more help than me
:p
lizmat who? /me? you mean timotimo ? 11:28
nine carlin: or not... while it compiles and runs, I don't see my object's destructor called.
jaffa4 hi guys, how am I supposed to install panda, I followed the instructions and I get an error message?
dalek kudo/nom: 5de1e70 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/ChangeLog:
Mention Proc::Async

Even though it was in the previous release already
nine perl6 -e 'my $destroyed = 0; class Foo { method DESTROY { $destroyed++; } }; Foo.new; nqp::force_gc(); say $destroyed;' 11:29
0
FROGGS jaffa4: I think there is an issue on parrot... can you test it on moarvm?
jaffa4 I am on moarvm
moritz jaffa4: what's the error?
FROGGS jaffa4: can you no-paste the error?
nine whereas: perl6 -e 'my $destroyed = 0; class Foo { method DESTROY { $destroyed++; } }; until $destroyed { Foo.new; }; say $destroyed;' 11:30
8
jaffa4 perl6 panda\bootstrap.pl -> Could not find lib in any of: ., blib, D:\rakudogit\install/languages/perl6/lib, D:\rakudogit\install/languages/nqp/lib
FROGGS hmmm 11:31
jaffa4: both rakudo and panda are up-to-date?
jaffa4 I just cloned it into panda
FROGGS what's your perl6 --version? 11:32
jaffa4 This is perl6 version 2014.07-238-g688c289 built on MoarVM version 2014.07-426-g49cecc3
FROGGS the please upgrade rakudo
moritz jaffa4: did you 'make install' in rakudo?
FROGGS nmake install* 11:33
jaffa4 I need to look 11:34
I recompiled At Frame 4, Instruction 3, op 'sp_guardcontconc' has invalid number (0) of operands; needs 3. 11:39
FROGGS then your MoarVM might be too new 11:41
timotimo yeah, there was an nqp stage0 update for moarvm
recently-ish
colomon I just tried to say a list of 300 strings and got a truncated list with "…" at the end?!
FROGGS jaffa4: update MoaVM, nqp and rakudo
timotimo colomon: yeah, you're using ".gist", TimToady recently made gist give you only the gist of a list instead of all of it
you can still ~@list it
FROGGS timotimo: that's what we are talking about it seems: github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/775ac8...f2b160712d
timotimo that's right 11:42
jaffa4 well, I did I think, I pull the git, and issue configure again... what version of git should I use? 11:43
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FROGGS just rakudo/nom 11:43
and then pass --gen-moar to configure 11:44
--gen-moar implies --gen-nqp btw
jaffa4 this works perl Configure.pl --gen-moar --gen-nqp --backends=moar, right?
FROGGS right
jaffa4 that is when I get the error 11:45
FROGGS what does 'git describe' give you?
jaffa4 Minsk-339-g5de1e70
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FROGGS that fits 11:46
timotimo maybe we forgot a version bump after some op got introduced?
jaffa4 what version should I get which is ok? 11:47
FROGGS timotimo: NQP_REV looks good
timotimo and MOAR_REV, too?
FROGGS yes 11:48
timotimo hm. maybe nuke install/ from orbit?
carlin m: class Foo { method DESTROY { say 'kaboom'; } }; { my $x = Foo.new }; nqp::force_gc(); nqp::force_gc()
camelia ( no output )
carlin m: class Foo { method DESTROY { say 'kaboom'; } }; { my $x = Foo.new }; nqp::force_gc() xx 2;
camelia rakudo-moar 21a2a4: OUTPUT«kaboom␤»
timotimo nobody promised you timely destruction :S 11:49
kurahaupo timotimo: a long time ago we were promised timely destruction, at least for enrolled objects or types. Seems a shame that's been dropped 11:51
jaffa4 from orbit?
what orbit? 11:52
FROGGS jaffa4: he meant to remove the 'install' directory entirely :o)
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jaffa4 yes , that is turn off, turn on 11:57
FROGGS right
I built latest rakudo just fine 11:58
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jaffa4 compilation does not work with msc9 12:01
it works with msc10 12:02
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nine carlin: where does that difference between nqp::force_gc() xx 2 and nqp::force_gc(); nqp::force_gc() come from?! 12:03
FROGGS jaffa4: eww 12:04
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vendethiel nine: mayb the GC *refuses* to :p 12:07
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vendethiel m: class Foo { submethod DESTROY { say 'kaboom'; } }; { my $x = Foo.new }; nqp::force_gc(); 12:07
camelia ( no output )
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vendethiel
.oO( we c++ now )
 12:07
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vendethiel .o( heisendestroy ) 12:08
nine thinks force_gc is not as forceful as it likes to be 12:11
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brrt nine: on moar? 12:14
jnthn Well, it certainly doesn't force a ful collection, and it's not entirely clear that the Foo instance you created is out ot scope
The optimizer can flatten away unrequired scopes when it can see we couln't possibly introspect and discover a discrepancy. 12:15
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FROGGS eww 12:16
jnthn Trying to reason about what will go out of scope and become collectable when is a fools errand.
FROGGS do we have new chars for Match.gist now?
m: say "a" ~~ /a/
camelia rakudo-moar 21a2a4: OUTPUT«｢a｣␤␤»
FROGGS that's.... ugly
grondilu n: say "a" ~~ /a/ 12:17
camelia niecza : OUTPUT«Cannot open assembly './run/Niecza.exe': No such file or directory.␤»
jnthn FROGGS: We had the corner brackes for ages now, no?
FROGGS then it is my font >.<
I upgraded to ubuntu 14.04 just on saturday
lunch & 12:18
jnthn
.oO( Baptized at the font of missing glyphs )
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jnthn nine: Answer to questions like "difference between xx 2 and not could be all kinds, but quite easily it could just be that xx 2 re-uses registers somewhere and so leaves objects unreferenced in that case. 12:24
nine jnthn: sounds like there's no way to write reliable tests? 12:25
lizmat jnthn: fwiw, I'm now writing the spec of Proc::Async so that people have something to look at when the next release comes out and it mentions Proc::Async 12:26
timotimo that seems like a good decision
jnthn You seem to want to write reliable tests that rely on subtleties of register allocation, optimization, GC, and probably more...
timotimo sounds like you want to use the MASTCompiler directly 12:27
jnthn Well, no, because there's no real reason for the interop stuff not to work out on JVM 12:28
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nine I wonder if it actually works on the JVM right now. Except for DESTROY support I wouldn't know a reason why not. 12:28
timotimo right
jnthn And so even if you manage to get the stars to align "reliably" on Moar, you're probably going be juggling a different bunch of things.
lizmat jnthn: would it make sense to make Proc::Async's path parameter to be a positional, rather than a obligatory named ?
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lizmat jnthn: and args a slurpy ? 12:29
jnthn lizmat: Is there precednet for doing so anywhere else in the built-ins?
carlin nine: the trait_mod craziness to get NativeCall to work doesn't work on JVM
lizmat jnthn: S29:577 12:30
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S29.html#line_577
jnthn lizmat: That's hard to apply in so far as it's a sub call, not an object construction.
lizmat true
jnthn lizmat: I was more thinking of other IO related classes 12:31
lizmat I guess we need to unspec :bg in S29 and link to S17's Proc::Async ?
jnthn lizmat: Uh, yes. :)
lizmat: I'm quite confident in saying that a named arg indicating async or not is LTA API design. ;) 12:32
nine jnthn: why is this leaking memory? perl6 -e 'my $destroyed = 0; class Foo { method DESTROY {$destroyed++;} }; loop { Foo.new }' 12:33
jnthn: but this not? perl6 -e 'class Foo { method DESTROY {my $destroyed;$destroyed++} }; loop { Foo.new }'
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dalek ecs: 81994a0 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S29-functions.pod:
Remove :bg parameter from shell()/run()

Now done by Proc::Async, and can not really be intergrated seemlessly here.		 12:37
ecs: fa80c00 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S29-functions.pod:
Spec the :cwd parameter for shell()/run()
lizmat IO::Notification.watch_path doesn't take a named path either 12:38
jnthn nine: No idea, though I can see it is... 12:39
nine: At it's sensitive to the DESTROY being there. Odd. 12:40
lizmat: Yeah, that's a stronger indicator. 12:41
nine: Oh...
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jnthn nine: Could be due to the way the destroy queue handler is invoked 12:42
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jnthn (As a special return handler) 12:43
lizmat muses about a postfix:<&> for IO::Path that would do a Proc::Async.new(path,args).start :-)
jnthn nine: Yeah, seems to be that. 12:44
nine: It's a lot less likely to affect real world code.
nine: Which actually has a call graph rather than just sitting in a hot loop.
nine jnthn: let's hope so :) 12:45
jnthn Well, that bit is easy enough to explain
The typical way to do these things is to run DESTROY on some thread. That doesn't risk leaks like this, but does spoil the thread affinity you wanted. 12:46
So if we need to run them on the same thread, we need to make that call happen at some safe point. 12:47
Not every GC safe point is also an invocation safe point, however.
lizmat why would we need to run DESTROY on the same thread ?
jnthn lizmat: I thought nine said he needed it that way for p5 interop? 12:48
lizmat would seem to me, that having your DESTROYs done asynchronously, would be another reason for running P5 code in Perl 6
jnthn lizmat: Having refcounts decremented by another random thread sounds like a great way to segv Perl 5...
lizmat from a performance point of view
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jnthn lizmat: Especially if the same p5 interpreter is running code on another thread. 12:49
lizmat maybe P5 refcounting needs to be done from a Supply.act ?
just wondering how things can be, not why they can't :-) 12:50
jnthn Anyway to finish what I was explaining, the way we get an invocation safepoint is attaching the "run the DESTROYs" to happen at the next block exit.
And if you're in a loop { } then that block typically is inlined so there's no block exit until program exit.
Most interesting programs are not a single hot loop, so I won't worry abou this one too much :)
jnthn has a skype call, bbiab :) 12:51
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brrt what, stage parse took 25.6s :-o 13:05
when did that happen
FROGGS O.o
timotimo half a month ago?
FROGGS probably, yeah 13:06
there was no speed boost over night :o)
brrt and clean spectests, too 13:08
wow
FROGGS are you sure?
brrt clean-for-me 13:09
i.e. some might be flappy but after a few minutes of buzzing the spectests said 'all test passed'
lizmat FWIW, I've seen a lot less flappage since the libuv upgrade 13:10
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Ven pulls to try locally 13:12
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Ven stage parse, 34.64! 13:17
and `make test` seems clean as well 13:18
and the make bug is gone \o/ (people doing good and doing well)++
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brrt what make bug? 13:19
Ven brrt: osx make segfault 13:20
FROGGS brrt: when expanded makefile lines were very long
brrt aha
FROGGS moritz++ fixed that together with someone I think
Ven I remember it :)
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brrt did you know that os x whateveritscalled doesn't come with gdb anymore? 13:21
brrt finds that he can't really enforce say() on DESTROY either 13:22
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brrt do we have an actual working example of DESTROY? 13:24
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nine brrt seems to always quit right before I want to answer him 13:45
FROGGS he backlogs though
colomon is curious how we spectest DESTROY 13:46
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JimmyZ here is a way: gist.github.com/jnthn/dbe4e347cc092fa8cf62, me thingks :P 13:48
speaking of DESTROY
nine brrt: Inline::Perl5 is successfully using DESTROY. I verified that using a test script but am struggling to put this in a proper test. The one I have now runs indefinitely on a Rakudo without DESTROY support. 13:49
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nine JimmyZ_: "Make some junk to caues a GC" is not reliable though. It depends very much on subtleties and GC configuration. 13:50
itz is it S17* which are flappy? 13:51
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lizmat itz: in the past yes, but not so much lately 13:52
JimmyZ_ nine: yeah
Does force_gc cause a GC? 13:53
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nine JimmyZ: I'd say it makes it more likely ;) 13:54
JimmyZ :)
dalek kudo/nom: 0fbd5f3 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Kernel.pm:
Add Kernel.signal to get kernel signal values

Either takes a string, or Signal Enum. Please note that we cannot reliably
  map the Signal Enum to Kernel signal values, as these may (and do) differ per
kernel.		 13:55
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flussence I just went to update all of my rakudo stuff, and it hangs on panda/rebootstrap.pl :( 13:57
lizmat flussence: spectest went ok ?
flussence I'll give that a try, gimme 7 minutes or so :) 13:58
lizmat if that fails, I suggest rm -rf install plus a reconfigure from scratch
the libuv upgrade path was not smooth :-( 13:59
flussence oh ok, gotcha.
FROGGS ohh, yes
flussence spectest appears to have hanged also...
FROGGS that could case that hang...
dalek ecs: 3536408 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S17-concurrency.pod:
Initial stab at speccing Proc::Async
 14:00
JimmyZ just do `make realcean` in MoarVM :P
lizmat in my experience, realclean alone was not enough
I always had to nuke the install dir
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dalek ecs: b36c9eb | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S28-special-names.pod:
Spec Kernel.signal
 14:07
woolfy1 fears all that nuking that lizmat does...
lizmat
.oO( from orbit, no less :-)
 14:08
woolfy1 o0O(the house is trembling and shaking)
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rindolf Hi all. Sup? 14:11
tadzik hello rindolf 14:12
FROGGS rindolf: a pull request: bitbucket.org/shlomif/perl-xml-lib...-test-file
flussence lizmat: I did rm -r install/, git clean -dfx in rakudo/ & rakudo/nqp & rakudo/nqp/MoarVM, and it still hangs... I just remembered there's all that 3rdparty/ stuff that git-clean didn't catch so I've cleared *that* out and I'm trying again. 14:13
lizmat flussence++ for persevering
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flussence not a big deal, it takes less time to rebuild all of rakudo these days than it used to to run hello world :) 14:14
FROGGS *g*
flussence yep, these spectests look a lot healthier now... 14:15
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dalek kudo/nom: b8e0136 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Kernel.pm:
Get Kernel.signal up to spec :-)
 14:16
rindolf tadzik: what's up? 14:17
tadzik things are well :)
rindolf FROGGS: the tests pass.
FROGGS rindolf: that's not really an answer 14:18
rindolf FROGGS: well, does your pull req breaks them? 14:19
FROGGS: is it worth risking a "fix" and for atypo?
FROGGS rindolf: my pull request is a question about a possible typo in your test
rindolf: so it is possible that you're testing the wrong hting 14:20
thing*
rindolf: ohh, s/pull request/issue/
14:21 sqirrel_ left
rindolf FROGGS: ah. 14:21
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dalek ast: 665ee24 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-str/lines.t:
Add tests for Str.lines(:eager)
 14:33
ast: dd8a067 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S02-magicals/KERNEL.t:
Add tests for Kernel.signals/signal
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dalek ecs: 9103f96 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S (2 files):
Also allow bare int's to be passed to .signal
 14:38
kudo/nom: 945d1ed | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Kernel.pm:
Again, bring Kernel.signal up to spec
 14:40
ast: 4be29f3 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S02-magicals/KERNEL.t:
Add Kernel.signal Int tests
 14:43
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jnthn lizmat++ # spec and test work 15:07
lizmat cycling& 15:10
jaffa4 bootstraping panda, cannot find shell command ...Could not find Shell::Command i
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pmurias nine: the hanging test issue you could solve with a timeout 16:19
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nine pmurias: I know. But then the test wouldn't be 100 % reliable anymore. But I'm gonna do it anyway. No need to bother the users right at the start. 17:16
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dalek line-Perl5: 8cadf89 | nine++ | lib/Inline/Perl5.pm6:
Save even more method calls in destructor
 17:48
line-Perl5: 5c89aae | nine++ | p5helper.c:
Set perl_destruct_level to sequaky clean as suggested by perlembed
line-Perl5: cc683da | nine++ | / (11 files):
Rename Perl 5 interpreter variable in tests and examples to $p5

Suggested by abraxxa++
line-Perl5: 4884c94 | nine++ | t/p6_object_destructor.t:
Add timeout to p6_object_destructor.t

Destructors are only available in rakudo git. No need to punish users trying to install the module.
Suggested by pmurias++
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timotimo hmm, so few individuals committed this week 18:25
apart from nines excellent work and liz's, the weekly might look a wee bit bleak 18:26
FROGGS :o( 18:30
I implemented cglobals! 18:31
18:31 mj41 left, skids joined
FROGGS and did the libuv upgrade 18:31
lizmat FROGGS++ !! 18:34
and Travis support ? 18:35
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lizmat and I think TimToady's reify fixes made the spectest run about 5% faster 18:37
pmurias cglobals?
FROGGS pmurias: C globals 18:38
pmurias for NativeCall?
FROGGS lizmat: and that travis stuff, aye
pmurias: right
it awaits jnthn's approval, but I think it is all right
vendethiel first of all: anything that uses nativecall is not nqp-js compitable 18:39
s/ita/ati/
FROGGS vendethiel: why? 18:40
vendethiel FROGGS: ... because js things can't use c libs?
FROGGS is there no way to add that support?
vendethiel no
FROGGS :/
vendethiel not in a lifetime
also, Inline::P5 is incompatible with js. 18:41
so, let's be wary of doing everything that way :-)
FROGGS so the node ppl also have no FFI?
vendethiel FROGGS: there are the node ppl, and there are the browser ppl 18:42
FROGGS vendethiel: what about node then?
vendethiel FROGGS: node has node-ffi
FROGGS see :o)
vendethiel see what?
why would you want to compile your perl6 to js ... To run it server-side? 18:43
seems kinda counter-productive
FROGGS nqp-js will be able to support Native on node
18:43 ClarusCogitatio left
FROGGS that's what it currently does 18:43
vendethiel but then why not only run it with rakudo-moar?
to use some npm lib? that seems *far* less likely that using it on the client side.
FROGGS maybe you hava a node infrastructure? I dunno
vendethiel I dunno either. So, I don't think it's very useful 18:44
I've seen it, people compiling scala to js to run it under node; but it seems like one hundredth of the use cases
FROGGS well, for *me* perl6-j is not useful either, but there seems to be some interest 18:45
vendethiel FROGGS: but the other option would be to code in java. Which you don't want to
so tht's not thje same
18:45 ClarusCogitatio joined
FROGGS that might be true :o) 18:45
vendethiel what I'm saying is that, in more than 99% percents of the cases, you just run your code on moar rather than compile it to js to run it under node... 18:46
"99% percents" right.
18:46 _sri left
FROGGS yeah 18:46
18:46 _sri joined
rindolf FROGGS: i think i'll close your issue. 18:47
FROGGS rindolf: okay 18:48
rindolf FROGGS: sorry.
FROGGS rindolf: np
18:48 BizarreCake left
FROGGS rindolf: 'as per irc' - you've not really said why it is invalid :o) 18:50
rindolf FROGGS: yes, i'm being lazy. 18:55
Laziness, impatience and Hubris.
lizmat
.oO( if rindolf ever complains of lack of feedback on his projects, we now know why )
 18:57
rindolf lizmat: :-) 18:58
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pmurias vendethiel: what started the Inline::P5/js discussion? 19:02
vendethiel pmurias: me being worried :)
pmurias about what?
Ven about people going full-C implems or full-P5 implems
dalek ast: 90fa2c0 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S22-package-format/local.t:
Make sure we can precompile code with -use-
Ven and then making us unable to have multiple implems
pmurias you mean implementing core parts of Rakudo in C or P5? 19:03
Ven pmurias: not even core 19:04
pmurias re Native call on rakudo-js, node has ffi 19:05
and in the browser we have enscripten
* emscripten
19:06 zakharyas left
Ven uh.. let's not :( 19:06
seems heavy and unreliable to require llvm to emscripten of nativecalled library to just use them 19:07
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pmurias seems better then using an emscriptened perl5 interpreter to run a module ;) 19:08
Ven true :D.
lizmat just realizes she specced stuff with underscores again and nobody complained
19:08 zakharyas joined
Ven but worse than just having a p6 version :) 19:08
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colomon lizmat: haven't noticed it yet, but you can consider this a complaint from me. ;) 19:09
FROGGS lizmat: I hereby complain too! :P
flussence argh, some of my code's failing on 32-bit 19:10
dalek ecs: a729e2b | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S17-concurrency.pod:
Don't spec new stuff with _ anymore
 19:19
ecs: a6e8af2 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S17-concurrency.pod:
Taking jnthn's ++ as an ok for positionals
lizmat FWIW, I consider using - instead of _ in identifiers as a part of eating your own dogfood 19:24
pmurias Unknown operator precedence specification "%comma" at line 28, near "$quoted~'' 19:26
what does that mean? 19:27
caused by ./nqp-m --module-path gen/moar/stage2/ src/vm/js/QAST/Compiler.nqp
FROGGS that it cannot resolv %comma in method O 19:28
moritz pmurias: looks like something's wrong with the operator precedence parser, or with who an operator is set up 19:29
FROGGS hmmm, %comma is set up here: github.com/pmurias/nqp-js/blob/mas...r.nqp#L718
pmurias -e 'say(1+1)' trigger that too 19:30
dalek kudo-star-daily: 46e5eb4 | coke++ | log/ (15 files):
today (automated commit)
kudo-star-daily: 2342a20 | coke++ | log/ (15 files):
today (automated commit)
rl6-roast-data: afedf31 | coke++ | / (6 files):
today (automated commit)
FROGGS pmurias: we are talking about nqp code, right?
pmurias * triggers
[Coke] niecza is borked on host08. rakudos seem to be ok.
pmurias ./nqp-m --module-path gen/moar/stage2/ -e 'say(1+1)'
FROGGS pmurias: is it possible that it does not run the INIT block in the link I posted? 19:31
pmurias: you could test that by commenting line 705 and 721
[Coke] clean spectests? nope. 19:34
(for brrt in backscroll)
FROGGS [Coke]: I was curious also 19:35
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[Coke] rakudo.jvm is failing 7677 tests on host08, which could be a host08 thing. 19:36
moar is unaffacted by the move. parrot is failing 331 tests today up from 271
dalek ecs: 4df4368 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S17-concurrency.pod:
Spec Str.IO.watch -> IO::Notification.watch_path
p-js: d08a287 | (Pawel Murias)++ | / (9 files):
Migrate from parrot to moar.
 19:37
FROGGS lizmat: watch_path or watch-path?
lizmat well, it has been implemented as watch_path for a while now
pmurias FROGGS: it seems that some strange things were happening and just tweaking things made them disappear
lizmat so we will need a deprecation cycle for that
pmurias moarvm++ # make js-test runs much much faster on moar! 19:38
lizmat but the last time I changed things like that in the spec, I upset jnthn quite a lot, so I'm reluctant to go back on that
most people will be using the shortcut anyway
nine So we have a healthy mix of - and _ in method names?
lizmat unhealthy, I would say :-(
pmurias we have to decide on one or the other 19:39
lizmat I hope we can get clarity at the Perl 6 hackathon after the APW in a few weeks
at least we have a deprecation path that can be easily put in place 19:40
nine I really can't see the advantage of even allowing - in names anyway. We'll see foobar, foo_bar, foo-bar and fooBar in real life code. Probably all of them in larger code bases.
Ven nine: - ftw :)
lizmat nine: no need to be inconsistent from the beginning :-)
[Coke] niecza says: Got a SIGABRT while executing native code. This usually indicates 19:42
a fatal error in the mono runtime or one of the native libraries
used by your application.
dalek kudo/nom: 14cb952 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | / (3 files):
Add Str.IO.watch, remove need for code stubs

This will probably need a reconfigure to work.
[Coke] diakopter: what's the difference between host07 & host08?
nine lizmat: it's only the beginning if you're thinking of green field development with no existing libraries. I'm more thinking of existing code bases. So we'll have at least foo-bar from Perl 6 core, foo_bar from your existing code base if you stuck to Perl Best Practices, foobar because it's inevitable and fooBar if part of your code touches standard interfaces like the DOM.
19:43 jercos_ is now known as jercos
Ven nine: no, no. We'll just get stuff built on top of the DOM ;) 19:43
not raw calls :p
nine sure
lizmat if P5 had had '-' in identifiers, I'm pretty sure it would have been "-" instead of "_"
in PBP
[Coke] hurm. mono is gone from 2.X to 3.X, bet that's most of it. :| 19:44
nine lizmat: well it didn't. And now we have millions of lines of code using "_" and fingers trained to type it. And quite frankly I'm not even sure if I like "-" more than "_".
[Coke] seen sorear?
.seen sorear?
yoleaux I haven't seen sorear? around.
[Coke] .seen sorear
yoleaux I haven't seen sorear around.
nine PBP's argument for "_" is that is looks almost like the space character that would be there in plain English. What's the argument for "-"? 19:45
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lue nine: lowercase _ , at least on my US keyboard :) . 19:45
Ven nine: it's easier to type (and easier for me to read)
pmurias nine: it-is-more-pretty-than-_-and-easier-to-type
Ven (easier to type both on qwerty and on azerty)
FROGGS and on qwertz 19:46
dalek ecs: c00c203 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S99-glossary.pod:
Add PBP lemma
19:46 rindolf left 19:47 avuserow_ is now known as avuserow
lizmat FROGGS: so you're saying we shouldn't use "-" ? 19:47
lue nine: fwiw, I used to not think much of - as a character for names, but I've grown to like it.
19:47 ClarusCogitatio joined
FROGGS lizmat: yes, I'd vote for - instead of _ in methods and subs, but _ in all caps constants 19:48
nine Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And for some perceived beauty we get an even worse mix of naming conventions.
FROGGS there is only one way to mi it :o) 19:49
lue to me, foo-bar looks nicer than foo_bar (though not by much), and FOO_BAR looks better than FOO-BAR (by a fair bit).
dwarring er ++ "-"
lue (it also lets me not have to change whether or not I'm pressing down the shift key while typing a name :P)
pmurias we could enforce a naming convention but it's seem a bit unperlish (and usefull) 19:50
nine Nice arguments for a completely new language with no existing code. But I'd really like to change the latter. And then it will just worsen the mixed conventions problem. And that in a language with lousy IDE support.
[Coke] anyone else getting this: 19:52
nine We all like to laugh about PHP's mix of conventions in it's 10000s of builtin functions. But in Perl we already have the same because these functions are in different modules by different authors. And now we're making it even worse.
[Coke] S05-transliteration/trans.rakudo.moar aborted 56 test(s)
lue nine: different people doing things differently is unavoidable and, in my opinion, not worth the effort to prevent. 19:53
nine This really feels like the first change of the language that's not been thought through entirly.
And I say that even though I actually _like_ the possibility to use - in identifiers. I just fear it will cost more than it gains us.
skids r: use Test; for (0 .. 20) -> $e { given (1) { is 1, 0, "$e"; } } # SEGV on rakudo-m. Also other weird (IO/timing related) errors with Test, but only when 'given' used. 19:54
camelia rakudo-moar 945d1e: OUTPUT«(signal )not ok 1 - 0␤␤# Failed test '0'␤# at /tmp/tmpfile line 1␤# expected: '0'␤# got: '1'␤not ok 2 - 1␤␤# Failed test '1'␤# at /tmp/tmpfile line 1␤# expected: '0'␤# got: '1'␤not ok 3 - 2␤␤# Failed test '2'␤# at /t…»
..rakudo-parrot 945d1e: OUTPUT«not ok 1 - 0␤␤# Failed test '0'␤# at /tmp/tmpfile line 1␤# expected: '0'␤# got: '1'␤not ok 2 - 1␤␤# Failed test '1'␤# at /tmp/tmpfile line 1␤# expected: '0'␤# got: '1'␤not ok 3 - 2␤␤# Failed test '2'␤# at /tmp/tmpf…»
..rakudo-jvm 945d1e: OUTPUT«Can't call method "syswrite" on an undefined value at /home/p6eval/jvm-rakudo/eval-client.pl line 32.␤»
lue - has been a part of identifiers for a long time now (as long as I've been using Perl 6, at least), the only thing changing is more consistency in the spelling of names in the core. 19:55
flussence I've been wanting to ask something related for a while: I've seen module titles in the ecosystem that use «::» and ones that use «-», and can't decide which is "better".
lizmat flussence: that is another issue
:: implies a hierarchy in packages 19:56
flussence I'm of half a mind to change mine to that because the vast majority use it already...
lue I think - instead of :: happens in situations where a colon is either disallowed or discouraged as part of a name. 19:57
colomon lue: module names can be any old string, so far as I know 20:02
dalek kudo/nom: b41dda9 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Proc/Async.pm:
Fix copynpasto/thinko in chars/bytes logic
lue colomon: yeah, I was thinking more of filesystems and such. 20:03
colomon flussence: yes, I think you should probably change yours
the oddballs are Perl6-Math-Quaternion Test-ClientServer Test-Corpus Text-Levenshtein Text-Tabs-Wrap io-prompt 20:04
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flussence Text-Tabs-Wrap is the way it is for hysterical raisins, the others I have are easily fixed though, I'll change those 20:06
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FROGGS can somebody put me the output of this in a gist? perl6 -e '"a" ~~ /(a)/; say $/.DUMP' 20:08
20:10 brrt joined
colomon FROGGS: on it 20:11
FROGGS thank you :o)
colomon gist.github.com/colomon/c0c2aec35685b2fbafcd # does that look right?
my rakudo may be lagging by a few days
FROGGS yes, it does :o)
that doesnt matter
dalek ecs: f175d77 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S17-concurrency.pod:
Allow :%ENV to be passed to Proc::Async.new

Seems useful to be able to run a process "cleanly" or with whatever environment you want, without having to set up a lexical %*ENV.		 20:12
FROGGS it is just that I am hacking on that right now
colomon FROGGS: glad to help
colomon 's server is down because the battery backup went kablooey
colomon didn't mean to be random with that last comment, but the server is usually where he builds the latest rakudo first; on his laptop, builds risk messing with stuff I am using for $work. 20:14
FROGGS ahh 20:15
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nine Oh and how on earth is one supposed to call a perl6-method from Perl 5 code? 20:51
This is going to be ugly... 20:52
lizmat nine: I wouldn't mind if we're not going there
this is about providing access to Perl 5 libraries from Perl 6
not the other way around
20:53 ajr_ left
nine if one is trying to upgrade a larfe codebase piece by piece, the other way round is going to be just as important 20:54
And upgrading is the only way I can see me using P6 anytime soon. Otherwise I'd have been using it for years already... 20:55
timotimo pass callables to p5 from p6 code? 20:56
dalek kudo/nom: ef8387f | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Proc/Async.pm:
Streamline Supply generating code
 20:57
nine This little cosmetic change may bring quite a lot of ugliness with it. I just hope thst I'm going to be wrong about this. 20:58
lizmat nine: what little cosmetic change are you talking about ? 20:59
nine - as new standard in identifyers
lizmat ugliness as in broken code ? 21:00
21:00 raiph left
lizmat if so, that's why we can deprecate 21:00
nine As in workarounfs needed for something as simple as a method call 21:01
Well maybe I'll see it in a more positive light in the morning. good night! 21:03
lizmat good night, nine!
thanks for all the Inline::Perl5 work!
timotimo yup 21:07
dalek kudo/nom: 2a0c0dd | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Proc/Async.pm:
Implement :%ENV for Proc::Async.start, as per spec
21:09 jaffa4 left 21:16 Ven left
dalek p: fe64f00 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/ops.markdown:
Add doc stub for nqp::spawnprocasync
 21:25
lizmat hopes jnthn will fill in the stub
m: my $a=Proc::Async.new(:path<echo>,:args<$SHELL>); $a.stdout_chars.tap(&say); await $a.start # expected something else then $SHELL 21:29
camelia rakudo-moar b41dda: OUTPUT«$SHELL␤␤»
lizmat hmmm... should I even be able to do this on Camelia? 21:30
timotimo lizmat: Proc::Async is supposed to go through the shell?
lizmat not sure now
timotimo and no, it should probably be disabled in the restricted setting ... which is weaksauce anyway
i'd actually love to bounce ideas back and forth with someone about building a secure execution thingie based on spesh 21:31
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cognome r: say $*KERNEL.WHAT 21:32
camelia rakudo-moar 2a0c0d: OUTPUT«Cannot look up attributes in a type object␤ in method name at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:21480␤ in method gist at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:21333␤ in sub say at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:15106␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤␤»
..rakudo-jvm 2a0c0d: OUTPUT«Can't call method "syswrite" on an undefined value at /home/p6eval/jvm-rakudo/eval-client.pl line 32.␤»
..rakudo-parrot 2a0c0d: OUTPUT«Cannot look up attributes in a type object␤ in method name at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:19117␤ in method gist at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:18970␤ in sub say at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:14981␤ in sub say at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:14977␤ in bloc…»
lizmat cognome: that's odd
cognome I am odd too
... and old
dalek kudo/nom: fbef9c1 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/RESTRICTED.setting:
Make Proc::Async not work in restricted setting
 21:34
21:35 raiph joined
dalek kudo/nom: f882052 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Proc/Async.pm:
Better default handling for Proc::Async's :ENV
 21:37
kudo/nom: 8dd2409 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Proc/Async.pm:
say is a print, why not in the async case as well?
lizmat timotimo: does tainting ring a bell with you ? 21:38
timotimo yes
the pypy people had a tainting objectspace for some time
lizmat P5 has tainting
timotimo oh?
lizmat although not many people use it in production
timotimo based on TIE? :)
21:39 Rotwang left
lizmat nope 21:39
timotimo oh, it's internal to core p5? 21:40
as in ... implemented in C?
lizmat yes
metacpan.org/pod/distribution/PodS...ewrun.pod, look for -t and -T
oops
metacpan.org/pod/distribution/perl...erlrun.pod # proper URL 21:41
it's also still specced in S19:122 21:42
synopsebot Link: perlcabal.org/syn/S19.html#line_122
timotimo hm. 21:44
not sure if it's exactly what i'm looking for
lizmat well, it's part of what you want, I think 21:45
timotimo maybe 21:46
i thought along the lines of not allowing a user to specify nqp:: ops, but "indirect" calling would be okay, but that doesn't sound so sensible any more ...
21:47 cognome left 21:48 cognome joined
lizmat m: Systemic.new.WHAT # cognome's bug golfed down 21:55
camelia rakudo-moar 2a0c0d: OUTPUT«P6opaque: no such attribute '$!name'␤ in submethod BUILD at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:21328␤ in method BUILDALL at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:954␤ in method bless at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:937␤ in method new at src/gen/m-CORE.setting:921␤ in any a…»
lizmat p: Systemic.new.WHAT # cognome's bug golfed down
camelia ( no output )
lizmat p: say Systemic.new.WHAT 21:56
camelia rakudo-parrot 2a0c0d: OUTPUT«Cannot look up attributes in a type object␤ in method name at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:3194␤ in method gist at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:18970␤ in sub say at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:14981␤ in sub say at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:14977␤ in block…»
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lizmat huh? only if I do a say() ? 21:56
sjn \o 21:57
lizmat sjn: /o
sjn just came for a Java conference, having spent a LOT of time talking about Perl6 :D
timotimo cool :) 21:58
sjn *tired*
managed to shoot down almost all the critique though, and (hopefully) convinced at least a couple people that Perl6 is worth investigating today 21:59
lizmat sjn++
sjn Also, came to think of a new "pitch"
well. "angle" for promoting Perl6
"Year after year, there's been cool stuff presented about Perl6 at conferences all over the place. THAT STUFF IS STILL COOL; And now it also has all the new cool stuff since then, to *multiply* with it's coolness" </hype> 22:02
cognome lizmat, to thanks me for giving you work, you can do even more work and merge my pull request :) github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/279
sjn maybe a bit over the top, but at least I got some of the guys raise their eyebrows :) 22:04
dalek kudo/nom: 8cb5647 | (Stéphane Payrard)++ | src/core/Grammar.pm:
Grammar.parse :args support

See github.com/perl6/specs/commit/67579a1cf7
  github.com/perl6/roast/commit/1bc8a5fee6		 22:05
kudo/nom: 351c122 | lizmat++ | src/core/Grammar.pm:
Merge pull request #279 from cognominal/patch-1

Grammar.parse :args support
lizmat cognome: alas, no passing TODO tests :-( 22:10
lizmat has committed enough for today
so sleep&
cognome lizmat: ???
lizmat cognome: I was hoping the new :args feature would have had TODO tests in roast 22:11
cognome I think it is in fudged tests.
my bad.
lizmat you mean, as skipped? then it is time to unskip them :-)
good night all!
cognome yes, skipped
g'nigh 22:12
night 22:13
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timotimo gnite lizmat! 22:25
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ingy anyone know where fglock++ hangs out on irc? 23:35
23:37 BenGoldberg joined 23:38 nebuchadnezzar left 23:39 nebuchadnezzar joined
tadzik internal booking channels, perhaps :P 23:44
23:48 xenoterracide left 23:58 ingy left, ingy joined
[Coke] .seen fglock 23:59
yoleaux I saw fglock 23 May 2014 13:45Z in #perl6: <fglock> something like x( :scalar ) I think

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