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Set by moritz on 22 December 2015.
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Geth doc: 50b6194e5f | (Lloyd Fournier)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Type/Supply.pod6
Fix signature of sub signal(....)

s/@*signals/*@signals/ and add the default for :$scheduler = $*SCHEDULER		 03:56
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El_Che moritz: It seems congratulations are in order! 08:35
08:37 lizmat left
moritz El_Che: hm? 08:42
El_Che moritz: www.apress.com/gp/book/9781484228982
moritz: saw it on perl weekly. I thought you were working on an ebook only edition 08:43
moritz El_Che: thanks! The ebook was basically the work-in-progress/prototype
El_Che: and I considered whether to go through the hassle of creating a dead tree book when apress contacted me
El_Che yeah, I missed the part when you got a publisher
moritz El_Che also thanks for your feedback re Docker deployment 08:44
erm, that was meant to go into privmsg
El_Che you bastard ( :) ) triggered me to work on a the alpine packages
almost there, rakudo compiles fine now, but the packaging dies (ruby prob) 08:45
all related to alpine not using libc by default
moritz El_Che: the most awesome thing thing would be alpine + rakudo + zef
El_Che almost there
really, the difficult part is done
moritz because that could be the basis for deploying p6 apps
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El_Che going to a full pkg of a few dozens of megabytes from 300mb is a huge win 08:46
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El_Che I am at the place where I now can create the pkg if I want, but I want it to be integrated with the build process of the other packages (so I don't have to do it manually) 08:49
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stmuk_ I thought alpine had stack smashing protection which broke moar? is that fixed in moar? 09:12
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El_Che stmuk_: it's compiled and tests pass (haven't used it beyond that) 09:18
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stmuk_ cool 09:24
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El_Che stmuk_: lots of trial and error though 09:31
stmuk_ I feel your pain :) 09:32
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eater m: for (0..10) -> $i { start { print "ay" ~ " "; last; print "oy"; } if $i eq 0; print $i ~ " "; }; sleep .2; 10:38
camelia 0 ay 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
eater hehe
you can create an fake return/break statement in a start block, by wrapping it in a for 10:39
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timotimo for a real return you'd have to start a sub 10:44
m: say await do for ^10 -> $i { start sub test { return "hey" if $i == 4; $i } } 10:45
camelia (sub test () { #`(Sub|59247176) ... } sub test () { #`(Sub|59247328) ... } sub test () { #`(Sub|59247480) ... } sub test () { #`(Sub|59247632) ... } sub test () { #`(Sub|59247784) ... } sub test () { #`(Sub|59247936) ... } sub test () { #`(Sub|59248088) …
timotimo but not like that
m: say await do for ^10 -> $i { start sub test { return "hey" if $i == 4; $i }() }
camelia (0 1 2 3 hey 5 6 7 8 9)
eater timotimo: I know now but I found this when I didn't know :') 10:47
AlexDaniel m: say await do for ^10 -> $i { start anon sub { return "hey" if $i == 4; $i }() }
camelia (0 1 2 3 hey 5 6 7 8 9)
AlexDaniel m: say await do for ^10 -> $i { start sub { return "hey" if $i == 4; $i }() }
camelia (0 1 2 3 hey 5 6 7 8 9)
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timotimo honestly, i'm surprised the "last" in there doesn't make things explode 10:47
AlexDaniel yes 10:48
timotimo oh 10:49
i know
m: say await do for (0..10) -> $i { start { print "ay" ~ " "; last; print "oy"; } if $i eq 0; print $i ~ " "; };
camelia 0 ay 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Must specify a Promise, Channel, or Supply to await on (got a Bool)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
timotimo m: .perl.say for do for (0..10) -> $i { start { print "ay" ~ " "; last; print "oy"; } if $i eq 0; print $i ~ " "; };
camelia 0 ay 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Bool::True
Bool::True
Bool::True
Bool::True
Bool::True
Bool::True
Bool::True
Bool::True
Bool::True
Bool::True
Bool::True
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AlexDaniel c: releases for (0..10) -> $i { start { print "ay" ~ " "; last; print "oy"; } if $i eq 0; print $i ~ " "; }; sleep .2; 10:49
timotimo huh.
committable6 AlexDaniel, ¦2015.12,2016.03,2016.06,2016.11,2017.01,2017.02,2017.04.3: «0 ay 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 » ¦2016.01.1,2016.02,2016.04,2016.05,2016.07.1,2016.08.1,2016.09,2016.10,2017.03: «ay 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 » ¦2016.12,HEAD(3f7d133): «0 1 ay 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 » 10:50
AlexDaniel uh, it's just random I guess
timotimo i was expecting the "last" would instead of doing anything throw an exception a la "can't last without a loop"
eater AlexDaniel: the ay position? 10:51
AlexDaniel eater: yea
eater because that's just CPU timing
AlexDaniel sure
timotimo oh wait, there's an "if $i eq 0" after the start { }
that threw me for a loop
eater haha
timotimo so it only really starts one single task there for printing the numbers
that's also why it returns True for all the iterations 10:52
eater ye
timotimo m: for (0..10) -> $i { say await start { print "ay" ~ " "; last; print "oy"; } if $i eq 0; print $i ~ " "; }; sleep .2;
camelia ay ===SORRY!===
last without loop construct
timotimo there's that exception i meant
eater hahaha
timotimo so the "last" could just be a "die 'oh no'" instead
for the basically exact same effect
eater m: for (0..10) -> $i { start { print "ay" ~ " "; last; print "oy"; }.then({ say $_; }) if $i eq 0; print $i ~ " "; }; sleep .2; 10:53
camelia ay 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Promise.new(scheduler => ThreadPoolScheduler.new(initial_threads => 0, max_threads => 16, uncaught_handler => Callable), status => PromiseStatus::Broken)
eater threads silently fail
so there is your answer
timotimo if you don't await them, the scheduler is supposed to tell you about an unhandled exception
oh, maybe the uncaught handler is "Callable" as in "an undefined Callable" 10:54
m: say $*SCHEDULER.uncaught_handler()
camelia (Callable)
timotimo m: say $*SCHEDULER.uncaught_handler()()
camelia Cannot invoke this object (REPR: Uninstantiable; Callable)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
timotimo yeah
eater hmm
timotimo i thought it had one by default that prints exceptions out
eater that should be fixed
AlexDaniel what was the NYI return equivalent for non-subs?
timotimo "leave" 10:55
AlexDaniel yea! 10:56
timotimo "no, i was telling you to leave!" :P
eater >leave not yet implemented. Sorry.
timotimo: :D 10:57
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AlexDaniel RT #124960 10:57
synopsebot6 Link: rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display...?id=124960
AlexDaniel a bunch of tests here github.com/perl6/roast/blob/d1baf2...ts/leave.t 10:58
there were so many times I needed this… :'(
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eater leave even has an return value 11:01
moritz implement it!
eater DAMN
daxim raiph, <redd.it/69kdit#dha2bq5> 11:07
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eater moritz :s give me time to figure out how the internals even work 11:11
AlexDaniel
.oO( sigspace? )
 11:12
timotimo mamot.fr/users/cdc/updates/165666
moritz eater: ok 11:19
eater timotimo: that // next; 11:21
so dirty :')
timotimo i don't think it's dirty :)
however
that skips over the sleep, so it'll retry very fast very often
eater yeah 11:23
I just wanted to toot that 11:24
timotimo if you wanna toot it, toot it, otherwise i will toot the toot
moritz eater: ... time's up :-) 11:25
timotimo moritz so pushy today )
;)
eater moritz: :s
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AlexDaniel
.oO( does not look like moritz git push-ed a lot today, so maybe not so much :P )
 11:32
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jnthn timotimo: fwiw, if you don't await a Promise then the exceptions vanish; so far as the scheduler is concerned the exception has handled because it was caught and shoved into the Promise. 11:35
*was handled
timotimo jnthn: of course, but before i put an await there it still exceptioned
we create $*SCHEDULER with just ThreadPoolScheduler.new 11:36
we don't pass an uncaught_handler, and there's no default value for uncaught_handler either
i seem to recall we used to have an uncaught handler, so i wonder why it's gone now
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jnthn I thought we would stack trace and exit 11:37
timotimo oh, *exit*, even?
well, we can certainly implement that
jnthn If there's no uncaught_handler
timotimo oh!
let me look
jnthn m: $*SCHEDULER.cue: { die "oops" }; sleep 2
camelia Unhandled exception in code scheduled on thread 3
oops
in block at <tmp> line 1
jnthn Like that
Seems it's already working
timotimo huh 11:38
jnthn m: $*SCHEDULER.cue: { die "oops" }; sleep 2; say 'never here'
camelia Unhandled exception in code scheduled on thread 3
oops
in block at <tmp> line 1
timotimo m: start { die "oh no" }; sleep 2
camelia ( no output )
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timotimo ah 11:38
i re-read your message and now it makes sense
maybe what i was remembering was related to sinking promises? 11:39
jnthn Maybe, but we never decided on that :)
timotimo okay, no decision
yeah i can imagine that
Geth doc: f897a9c7ab | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/rb-nutshell.pod6
Fix incorrect output in example

Fixes #1299
jnthn If we do anything, then it may just be for a syntactic `start` in void context that gets the special handling, though.
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timotimo ah, we already special-compile start 11:40
so we can totally figure out if it's being sunk
jnthn Meanwhile, I just fixed IO::Socket::Async::SSL to handle verification when sites use wildcards in the certificates. :)
llfourn jnthn++ 11:41
timotimo sweet
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nadim_ hi, (^10). pick is pick one from the list 0..9 but what is (^10.pick)? 12:10
llfourn m: say ^10.pick, ^10.pick 12:11
camelia Potential difficulties:
Precedence of ^ is looser than method call; please parenthesize
at <tmp>:1
------> 3say ^107⏏5.pick, ^10.pick
Precedence of ^ is looser than method call; please parenthesize
at <tmp>:1
---…
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llfourn nadim_: an error? 12:12
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nadim_ no, it did generate something for me, a 11MB html file instead for a 75 KB file 12:13
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raschipi m: (^10). pick 12:13
camelia ( no output )
raschipi m: say (^10). pick
camelia 7
timotimo m: say 10.pick; say 10.pick; say 10.pick
llfourn m: say ^(10.pick), ^(10.pick)
camelia 10
10
10
^10^10
timotimo 10.pick is handled like [10].pick 12:14
so ^10.pick is the same as ^10
nadim_ I still don't get it. does it .pick for all the elements generated by ^10? 12:15
timotimo no
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raschipi It' a question of precedence. 12:15
timotimo it picks all the elements generated by 10
which is just a single element, namely 10 12:16
when you pick a random element out of one elements, you'll always get that single element
raschipi It's about what happens first.
timotimo that's why ^10.pick is the same as ^10
nadim_ I had (^10_000.pick), and I go more numbers than I wanted
timotimo yeah, that'll give you 10_000 numbers, from 0 to 9_999 12:17
you need to either put a space in front of .pack so it'll make the precedence a little less tight, or put parethesis around (^10_000)
nadim_ that's done, long tome ago, just wanted to make sure what the second did 12:18
timotimo did you get that error message?
nadim_ I got no error message 12:19
are you sure it is 10_000 number?
m: say (^10.pick)
camelia Potential difficulties:
Precedence of ^ is looser than method call; please parenthesize
at <tmp>:1
------> 3say (^107⏏5.pick)
^10
nadim_ I'll re-run the code, maybe I missed the error
no error message, my rakudo is a week old or so 12:20
timotimo really strange 12:21
perhaps precompilation-related?
i.e. you only got the error during installation and it just re-uses the generated code without giving you the error over and over
nadim_ it's my code, and it gets re-run 12:22
timotimo perhaps i can look into it; you got a link to that? 12:23
nadim_ I'll push it to github a bit later and will tell you where it is
that will test Data::Dump::Tree::DHTML on another box too. 12:24
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nadim_ BTW, anyone having a big data structure to dump? 12:24
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timotimo heh. heh. heh. heh. 12:25
i have a terrible idea :P
you know you can --profile --profile-filename=foobar.json?
MasterDuke_ heh, i was thinking the same thing... 12:26
timotimo MasterDuke_: profiler work ruined us
llfourn what's the state of the profiler? 12:27
nadim_ that sounds like a good idea actually
it will be huge that's for sure
timotimo llfourn: i wanted to make a TUI interface for the profiler. it didn't get very far yet, just a little bit
llfourn TUI?
timotimo Terminal User Interface
nadim_ curses 12:28
timotimo not curses in my case
llfourn ah ok. But it can output to json?
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nadim_ tput?! 12:28
llfourn (or is that what it always did and the angular thing just read from it...)
timotimo nope, straight up just ansi escapes and newlines
MasterDuke_ llfourn: the default output is json data wrapped in html, but you can get it to exclude the html
timotimo it can output to json, but that's not cool
MasterDuke_ or as sql statements 12:29
timotimo we now have an output mode that spits out sql in sqlite compatible format
thanks to MasterDuke_ over here
llfourn nice.
timotimo i had uploaded a few screenshots to imgur, but imgur is currently "over capacity"
llfourn goes to try it
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timotimo llfourn: github.com/perl6/nqp/pull/354#issu...-296382898 - check this out, too 12:31
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timotimo though i think we renamed a few of the fields in between that pr and now? 12:31
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MasterDuke_ yep 12:32
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llfourn --profile --profile-filename=tmp.json # malloc: *** error for object 0x7f8d6cb0c200: incorrect checksum for freed object - object was probably modified after being freed. 12:33
MasterDuke_ i was going to update the docs page with some of those examples, but i don't think 2017.04 included that PR (or the subsequent one that renamed some fields)
llfourn: were you trying to profile something multi-threaded? 12:34
llfourn MasterDuke_: there are no start blocks 12:35
timotimo is there async i/o?
llfourn There is asyncio in the base but I don't think it hit any of it
timotimo hm, okay 12:36
interesting
llfourn there is also a signal().tap but I don't think I hit that eithert
timotimo that'd also call the i/o thread to be spawned
cause*
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MasterDuke_ timotimo: speaking of such things, any further ideas on how to gather profile data from multiple threads? 12:37
timotimo we'll need a mechanism to stop other threads from running
the gc has something very similar already 12:38
but the orchestrate code is a wee bit scary
llfourn RTs for profiling go to [email@hidden.address]
timotimo hmm, not sure
i'd put it in moarvm/moarvm if it's a memory-corruption issue like the one you had 12:39
can you run it with perl6-valgrind-m and try to reproduce the issue?
llfourn goes to do that
timotimo cool
llfourn has to install valgrind 12:40
MasterDuke_ llfourn: you'll also get more useful results if your moarvm is compiled with --debug=3 12:41
timotimo oh, right, that too
otherwise probably no funciton names or anything 12:42
llfourn yeah I will give this a go tomorrow and re-setup my debug rakudo build :)
timotimo okay, thanks for your cooperation!
llfourn thanks for your assistance! 12:43
timotimo it's what give my life meaning! ;)
llfourn ^_^ 12:44
Woodi hi today :)
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Woodi I have rakudo compiled to /opt/lib/some/where and -e sayHalloWorld tries to open every .moar in ./ and blib/ and *then* it finds it in installation location... for users installation 2/3 stat64 calls can be removed... 12:48
timotimo how many of those are there?
Woodi and there are *lots* of ModuleLoader.moravm lstat64 calls... all failed. my build is broken ? 12:50
timotimo: 3 per .moarvm file
maybe just @*LIB or something can be fixed ? 12:51
nadim_ How do I not pick the same number twice form a list? do I need to remove the picked number manually or is there a niffty way to do it? 12:52
moritz nadim_: .roll
m: say ('a'..'z').roll(5)
camelia (m a z o x)
timotimo nadim_: you need to .pick(amount) 12:53
that'll give you elements without putting them back in the pool it picks from
but once the .pick is over the original data structure won't have changed
nadim_ thanks
timotimo so .pick, .pick, .pick can give you the same element three times
nadim_ ah!
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MasterDuke_ m: say (^10).BagHash.grab(3) 12:55
camelia [1 4 5]
nadim_ so I need to manually handle it if I have, say, $l = ^10 ; $l.pick; $l.pick ?
AlexDaniel BagHash ↑ 12:56
MasterDuke_ m: my $a = (^10).BagHash; say $a.grab(3); dd $a
camelia [8 5 1]
BagHash $a = (9=>1,0=>1,4=>1,3=>1,7=>1,6=>1,2=>1).BagHash
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AlexDaniel m: my $x = (^5).BagHash; say $x.grab(NaN); say $x 12:56
camelia [3 4 0 1 2]
BagHash.new()
AlexDaniel \:-o 12:57
timotimo oh lord :)
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AlexDaniel not sure why this happens 13:00
m: my $x = (^5).BagHash; say $x.pick(NaN); say $x 13:01
camelia (4 3 2 1 0)
BagHash.new(1, 0, 4, 3, 2)
timotimo it's removing until $num-removed == $num-to-take?
AlexDaniel yea but…
m: my $x = (^5).BagHash; say $x.pick(-Inf); say $x
camelia This type cannot unbox to a native integer: P6opaque, Num
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
AlexDaniel then this would have worked also? 13:02
timotimo oh, huh
AlexDaniel alright, RT #131270 13:05
synopsebot6 Link: rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display...?id=131270
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AlexDaniel fucking NaNs :) 13:06
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MasterDuke_ should probably mention it to lizmat since she's been doing all that work on bag/set recently 13:09
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AlexDaniel well, this is an old “feature” 13:11
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AlexDaniel but sure 13:11
.tell lizmat MasterDuke said that you may be interested in RT #131270 13:12
yoleaux AlexDaniel: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
synopsebot6 Link: rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display...?id=131270
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robertle m: say [{ a => '1'}].perl 13:30
camelia [:a("1")]
robertle m: say [{ a => '1'},].perl
camelia [{:a("1")},]
robertle is that implicit flattening of the inner expected? desired? I find it kinda surprising...
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raschipi m: say [{ a => '1'}].WHAT 13:33
camelia (Array)
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timotimo yes, it's the "single argument rule" 13:35
it's what makes it possible to have [<foo bar baz>]
nadim_ what's the name of STDOUT in the P6 world? *STDOUT ? to put it in a documentation
timotimo $*OUT 13:36
docs.perl6.org/language/variables#...-%24%2AOUT 13:37
nadim_ \o/
robertle timotimo: right, got it now and found S07 that explains it nicely. powerful, but running with knives...
timotimo the "stdout" in there should be searchable
haxmeister is anyone aware of a module that will help me parse javascript generated pages? 13:49
nadim_ HTML::Parser maybe 13:50
eater timotimo: what is the use of [<1 2 3>]? 13:54
AlexDaniel haxmeister: what does that mean? 13:58
timotimo eater: makes an array with the stuff in the list
eater timotimo: what does <> make then?
AlexDaniel eater: a List
eater ah, list vs array?
AlexDaniel yep
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AlexDaniel m: say <1 2 3>.Array 13:59
camelia [1 2 3]
AlexDaniel this works too
eater thanks 14:00
AlexDaniel m: say Array(<1 2 3>)
camelia [1 2 3]
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AlexDaniel huggable: hug all 14:04
huggable hugs all
AlexDaniel huggable: hug me 14:05
huggable hugs me
AlexDaniel right…
ilmari huggable: hug the abyss 14:06
huggable hugs the abyss
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gregf_ m: [<1 2 3>,[1,2,3]].map: {$^a.^name.say} 14:08
camelia List
Array
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nicq20 Hi \o 15:08
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AlexDaniel hello 15:12
araraloren o\ 15:13
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haxmeister AlexDaniel: I want to get into data scraping from the web.. but these days the pages are often generated with javascript and the source of the page will be a lot of hard to follow javascript mumbo jumbo. some provide an API with json but most do not provide such to the public 15:20
AlexDaniel: I need to have a useragent that will process the javascript ideally
AlexDaniel haxmeister: well, if you are able to get some HTML out of it, then Gumbo is the answer. If not, then Selenium::WebDriver 15:21
haxmeister selenium::webdriver?... that perl6 ready of course? 15:22
AlexDaniel (so github.com/Skarsnik/perl6-gumbo and github.com/azawawi/perl6-selenium-webdriver)
haxmeister ty AlexDaniel
AlexDaniel I tried Selenium::WebDriver a day or two ago and wasn't able to get it to work 15:23
but you'll probably have better luck :)
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haxmeister AlexDaniel: maybe I will.. only thing that sucks for me is gentoo's package manager isn't worked out for perl6 very good these days.. it's been recommended that I manually download and install modules 15:30
AlexDaniel haxmeister: hm, why not install zef and let it manage the thing?
haxmeister AlexDaniel: well using separate package managers can cause issues in a source distribution 15:31
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haxmeister AlexDaniel: provisions were made for perl5 to make portage handle the module installs.. but there is some issue that is adding complexity with perl6 modules.. can't quite remember what it was 15:33
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haxmeister AlexDaniel: ok I asked again.. there is the issue with the module names being converted to hashes.. and some modules needing modules to install a module in a circular type fashion 15:46
AlexDaniel \:-o 15:47
really don't see how all that is a problem, but whatever
haxmeister not a problem with perl6 so much
but they like to have portage handle module installs.. so they generally like to make a script that will create an ebuild automatically.. currently they have to code each one 15:48
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haxmeister they are short handed you know :/ 15:52
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[Coke] hurls github.com/erikwiffin/0.3000000000...-298281973 if someone wants to make a PR demonstrating how we don't just print the right rounded out number, but actually do the math right. 16:14
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[Coke] win 8 16:21
buggable [Coke], Thank you for entering Accidental /win Lottery! The next draw will happen in 4 weeks, 7 hours, 38 minutes, and 29 seconds
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araraloren I make a module can generate terminal table. Anyone interested can go to have a look github.com/araraloren/perl6-terminal-table 16:34
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timotimo i'd like to know what sets it apart from the other ~4 terminal table modules 16:39
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TreyHarris So it seems ilke the canonical Emacs perl6-mode has been abandoned (9 months of author inattentiveness), but the fork under the perl6/ GitHub project can't be made official for Emacs packaging because it's a fork. I've made a tasklist on GitHub to track this, and right now we're still in step #2--wait a week to see if the original author returns after informing him of our intentions to take over 17:01
maintenance--but assuming he doesn't respond or blesses the transfership, we'll need an Owner of the GitHub project to handle working with GitHub support to break the fork and move over the open issues. (This is something they do, but only in a support-ticket context, there's no interface or API for it.) I'm not an Owner so would one being willing to help me with this next week?
I'm running the mechanics and logistics of the task otherwise (see github.com/perl6/perl6-mode/issues/11 if you're interested) 17:02
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TreyHarris jnthn, moritz, [Coke], timotimo, perlpilot: you're the GitHub Owners I'm aware of on this channel, so if one of you could volunteer to help me next week on ^^^, I'd appreciate it 17:09
timotimo yeah, i own github. it makes me very rich
TreyHarris grins 17:10
GitHub perl6 project Owners, I meant ;-)
timotimo do i actually own that?
TreyHarris timotimo: are you not "timo" on GitHub?
github.com/orgs/perl6/people?utf8=...le%3Aowner
timotimo i am
TreyHarris You're listed there ^^ 17:11
timotimo so next week, is that the week that started today? 17:12
TreyHarris no, the deadline we gave was Sunday 14 May
so sometime after that
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timotimo oh, now that i actually read what you were saying above, i understand what's going on 17:14
sorry, kind of distracted
TreyHarris timotimo: no worries. doesn't have to be you, just putting out a call. I'd do it but the request must come from an Owner 17:16
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TreyHarris I've done this before for another project, though, so I can lead whoever steps up through it. 17:16
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TreyHarris Hm, I think you can mention a whole project role in an issue, so maybe I'll request help that way 17:19
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[Coke] I will very likely not have time 17:22
sorry, TreyHarris
TreyHarris [Coke]: np 17:23
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TreyHarris yeah, you can mention the org-admin team which is equivalent. Sorry timotimo and [Coke] for the re-notification. 17:28
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haxmeister poopers... I don't have zef 18:44
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[Coke] do you have panda? 18:46
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haxmeister apparently not 18:47
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hobbs do you have the prisoner of zenda? 18:50
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Geth ecosystem: 5e7a967db7 | (Sterling Hanenkamp)++ | META.list
Rename META.info to META6.json for Template-Anti
 18:52
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[Coke] github.com/ugexe/zef shows you how to install zef without a package manager. 18:53
need git and an install of perl6. (you could probably also use github to grab a .tgz if needed)
haxmeister ty 18:54
El_Che Freddie Mercury was a huge zef fan
"Zef me Zef me Zef me / I can't face this life alone / Zef me Zef me Oh... / I'm naked and I'm far from home"
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haxmeister it's installing 18:56
git comes standard on funtoo :-D
El_Che funtoo? Is that gentoo users that *really* love to compile stuff? :) 18:57
haxmeister yes.. my OS and all updates are compiled from source every time 18:59
I've been using it for years now.. I'm hooked..lol
El_Che haxmeister: does it means new versions of soft often? 19:00
-s
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haxmeister there are some large packages like chrome and firefox that have binaries available if you don't want to sit through the compile time.. but I don't use them 19:01
El_Che: everytime you update your system, it compiles any updates from scratch 19:02
raschipi_ For Perl6 and GCC, you still need binaries too.
haxmeister I make my own binaries 19:03
from source
and that includes updates to GCC
raschipi_ So it can't run in any kind of less-powerful platform too. Debian is working hard on automating cross-compilation so that they can drop the requirement to compile everything in the target platform. 19:04
How do you bootstrap it?
gfldex raschipi_: it was bootstrapped years ago
raschipi_ You need GCC to create a GCC binary.
Well, like I said, you need binary distribution of the C compiler. 19:05
And it's depedencies.
haxmeister you build funtoo by first installing a stage3 tarball that contains a binary GCC.. typically you will keep that binary until there's an update for it, which will be compiled on your machine
El_Che haxmeister: nice
kentnl for gcc, you get an initial binary GCC when you do your initial gentoo install. "OS bootstrap", after that you're compiling new gccs with old gccs.
Geth ecosystem: 2dd68402b6 | (Sterling Hanenkamp)++ | META.list
Renaming the METAs for 5 more ov my modules

Including: ArrayHash, HTTP::Headers, Path::Router, P6W, and DateTime::DST
haxmeister but if you want native compilation you can just tell it to recompile it
so the binaries I'm making are native to my hardware.. or I could set it to compile everything to some generic GCC flags and make them more portable 19:06
raschipi_ Deos it run with the Gentoo patches? Gentoo is one of the most modified systems out there, they patch source the most between distros. 19:07
Does*
haxmeister funtoo is like a mod of gentoo... the founder and creator of Gentoo, Daniel Robbins, created Funtoo which has it's own set of forked packages and special softwares that ease installation 19:09
gfldex "ease installation" :->
haxmeister but still uses gentoo repos under the hood.. so funtoo clones gentoo repo
it is much easier.. it even comes with a binary kernel.. the debian-kernel no doubt 19:10
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haxmeister so you have a jumpstart with a binary kernel.. and then retain the ability to compile a custom one from an already working system 19:11
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kentnl Gentoo doesn't actually have a policy of being "highly patched", we do try to follow upstream ( actually, last I looked, debian maintains far more perl patches than we do ) 19:12
haxmeister gentoo does fairly well with perl5.. perl6 has been a slow implementation.. but it's still technically new 19:13
kentnl pretend funtoo is a little like ubuntu, it can cheat and steal gentoo's packages verbatim, and then layer its own on top
haxmeister yes
^
kentnl ( the analogy is funtoo->gentoo as ubuntu->debian )
haxmeister I would agree...
except it doesn't intend to separate at any time..
it's like a proving ground for ideas that tend to drift up to gentoo 19:14
kentnl Gentoo will probably have better perl6 support eventually, just needs somebody to both care, have time to work out how, work out what needs to be done, etc. And that's kinda hard when your plate is full cleaning up the catastrophe of Perl5 breaking '.' in @INC 19:15
raschipi_ Gentoo patches the build systems, knowing how to compile things in Gentoo doesn't help everywhere else. 19:16
kentnl I'm not sure how that statement makes sense. 19:17
lizmat is working on the P6W 19:18
please let me know if you think I will miss something specific 19:19
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raschipi_ Debian has a similar system to what Gentoo has, it's called "build profiles", but developers keep it to a minimum to avoid the problem of creating a bubble. 19:19
El_Che lizmat: did you mention the ubunu@windows pgks last week?
raschipi_ wiki.debian.org/BuildProfileSpec
haxmeister anyway.. I think it's been a pretty good job between a language that wants to use it's own package system, and an OS that doesn't like to use anybody elses.
lizmat El_Che: nope, I didn't: what should I seay ?
El_Che "The Ubuntu 16.04 packages were made compatible with the Windows 10 Linux Subsystem. Just run /opt/rakudo/fix_windows10 after install. github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg/releas...2017.03_03 19:21
haxmeister raschipi_: somewhere in the background there are debian devs who are doing what gentoo users do daily.. we just get the luxury of native compilation at the cost of ..well.. waiting for compilation..lol
lizmat El_Che++
raschipi_ The debian build system supports local compilation, but to change the way the package is built one has to use the software own build system instead of USE flags. 19:22
haxmeister ah I see 19:23
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haxmeister haven't used debian in 10yrs or so.. but it stands on it's own.. one of the best 19:23
El_Che lizmat: Windows Subsystem for Linux (aka Bash or Ubuntu on Windows 10) 19:25
lizmat: that's the correct name 19:26
lizmat cool
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El_Che the 16.04 pkg works with Windows 10 1703 (Creator's Update, with Ubuntu 16.04) and Windows 10 1607 (Anniversary Edition, with Ubuntu 14.04). The rakudo 16.04 pkgs work on both 19:28
kentnl the gentoo workflow is a bit more like the LFS workflow. Thus, extended patching is generally detrimental because it just creates work and conflicts
haxmeister well manual installation of zef isn't working 19:29
kentnl debian also has the luxury of "compile one source tree, emit >1 binary asset packages, end user installs only 1 of these assets"
haxmeister: define "Isn't working"
haxmeister command not found 19:30
kentnl at which point? where?
which command?
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raschipi_ In other distros, one would have to give configuration options to Configure.pl to change the way Rakudo is built (for example, to use a different backend). In Gentoo, a user expects it will be available with a USE flag. 19:30
haxmeister I cloned git to perl6
folder
and ran the perl install command.. it completed successfully 19:31
kentnl raschipi_: end users can also supply configuration parameters themselves through configuration files, and there's support for user-supplied patches as well
the USE flags are simply the set of well defined and officially supported behaviours.
You can deviate from those significantly if you're wearing your adult trousers
haxmeister: I'm guessing you needed some step to update $PATH somewhere that you might have missed 19:32
raschipi_ Of course they can, but they usually don't. In my experience, Gentoo users don't know how to compile things any better than users from other distros.
kentnl That's mostly true. But its usually a path of necessity/skill. You don't tweak the official config stuff unless you need to, and that's where you get your hands dirty 19:33
( but customizing the build is way easier than building dpkgsrc packages IME ;) ) 19:34
haxmeister nah.. we know how to compile things using the system we have in place quite well.. and that compilation is sufficient to produce software that is useable on debian or any other distro
kentnl I wouldn't term that as "knowing how to compile". That's just "knowing how to install" ;)
haxmeister well no 19:35
kentnl the OS and the maintainers know how to compile, you're just re-using their experise.
haxmeister sure
but perl6
:)
Geth ecosystem: nicqrocks++ created pull request #338:
Add WebService::Slack::Webhook		 19:36
kentnl But if you actually know how to *compile* something yourself ( as opposed to simply installing it ), that knowledge is relatively portable
because the gentoo install process is more or less a codification of that. Its just bash! ;)
haxmeister bash and python 19:37
kentnl ( reasonably straight forward to hack up an ebuilds source and turn it into a travis-ci driver )
haxmeister mostly python
gfldex that's not very perltriotic
haxmeister you can't learn C without knowing how to compile things... not on linux anyway
gfldex we need to change that :-> 19:38
kentnl python doesn't do any of the compiling, its just a wrapper that serves for dependency management, environment, and final image deployment. All the real work happens in bash, python just invokes the bash entry points.
haxmeister you know how it works quite well kentnl .. I'm impressed.. usually when I mention I'm using funtoo I get "you must be a glutton for punishment"..lol 19:39
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kentnl ( you could write an implementation of portage in Perl, or even Perl6, and it would still be able to wrap bash and drive the ebuilds ) 19:39
I mean, we already have 2 unofficial alternative portage implementations, one of them is written in C++! 19:40
haxmeister I'd like to see one in perl6.. I would find that interesting
I think an awesome thing would be to implement the ebuilds in perl6 too 19:41
or a DSL based from perl6
kentnl just the glue layer to bash is the hard sauce where the real horror shows occur. Like, "contents of INI files stored in env vars, wut?" horrors.
kentnl has tried to handle this part in perl before and that horror show is always what stops me 19:42
haxmeister nah..
lol
you have to do it all or none.. you can't just do a little at a time..lol
geekosaur kentnl, you should look at how termcap used to work sometime >.>
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kentnl haxmeister: you need about 30 specific magical environement variables in place (Some of them are filehandle IDs) *just* to source the main ebuild.sh that drives the "load EAPI specific logic" :/ 19:43
and that's not even doing any build, that's just extracting metadata. 19:44
and they wonder why its slow. *cough*
haxmeister lol
it's not really slow.. we gentoo/funtoo users are just used to things being snappy
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kentnl Oh its slow alright. You're getting the luxury of a metadata cache ;) 19:45
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kentnl you nuke that and the slowness becomes much more apparent. 19:45
raschipi_ All of that is fine and has my approval. But the average Gentoo user doesn't have nearly as big of a Unix beard as they imagine. 19:46
haxmeister well.. I don't have any problems or complaints.. I like my distro..lol
kentnl haxmeister: ( this is not a thin that affects you of course, but if you start doing a lot of maintainer stuff, these slowdowns can be a serious headache )
haxmeister I'm not interested in that
kentnl and of course, the nature of those caches being distributed means that if high-used shared elements change, you can get spikes of 150mb rsyncs :/ 19:47
haxmeister I'm not interested in writing bash scripts to build other peoples software.. don't really care about any of that stuff
we use git on funtoo
what I'm down for is learning perl6 and all it's glory in every way it can be applied on my OS or across the web 19:49
Geth ecosystem: f6a98405bd | Nic++ (committed by Zoffix Znet) | META.list
Add WebService::Slack::Webhook (#338)

Add module to easily send messages to Slack using a webhook.
kentnl I'd have to look into how they do metadata caches. The only way git for master is performant on gentoo is sync fetches a metadata cache independently via rsync, and then runs a quick "fixup" pass to clear up anything that changed in the interim
( well, maybe its a git-metadata cache, but the delta is still the same, large )
like, changes to eutils.eclass tends to need >4000 files get updated in the cache. 19:50
haxmeister syncing has never been something that I thought was time consuming.. it basically just syncs the funtoo tree from GIT 19:51
the funtoo tree is produced by some scripts on a server that sync from the gentoo tree and apply all the forks/special sauce.. so it takes only as much time as it takes to git sync 19:52
kentnl right, but you still have to generate the metadata *somehow*, so either you're generating it locally during sync, or you're going to need emerge to prime it on demand ( which is slow as well ) 19:53
www.funtoo.org/Project_Unfork # agrees with me
haxmeister you know I'm not a funtoo administrator.. I've made some small contributions to the website and I donate and have a funtoo container.. but all of this stuff is not really interesting to me 19:55
kentnl even before we transitioned to git, the perl-experimental overlay had frequent complaints about it being slow ( which was a side effect of git overlays lacking caches )
haxmeister my system performs adequately
kentnl kk :). I hope it continues to do so. 19:56
haxmeister lol
kentnl Though I also suspect the problem becomes more visible the more you have installed.
haxmeister but writing a package manager in perl6.. that could be fun
I think getting worked up over a 2 minute wait for dep calculation is a trivial matter when you have already decided to subject yourself to hours of compile time 19:57
syncing my system takes less than 15 seconds 19:58
I'm running XFCE4
kentnl Its when you have to wait 2 minutes for a dep calculation to install 1 package that takes only 10 seconds to install you start complaining :)
haxmeister lol
it doesn't bother me
its a difficult problem to solve you know.. it's the traveling salesman problem 19:59
raschipi_ Debian just recently got metadata diffs available for download. It used to take a while. Then someone decided to do it with topological diffs (pdiff) and it got worse. Now it goes fast. And Debian has much more metadata than Gentoo, so it's surprising it got so much time to fix.
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kentnl haxmeister: its not /quite/ a travelling salesman problem, but classes of graph optimisations are all fun :) 20:01
especially graphs with permutational conditions 20:02
raschipi_ Another thing they're doing is dividing packages into more repositories so that people don't have to download all the metadata.
There's a different repository for packages containing debug sysmbols and another for packages that differ in the ports.
kentnl You kinda need a larger staff than we have to be able to maintain multiple architectures concurrently without them sharing a path. 20:04
though we do kinda have the ability to support eschoteric arches unofficially without any effort too 20:05
raschipi_ For Perl6 or Gentoo in general?
kentnl Gentoo in general. Like, you can run Gentoo on an m68k without having to hope somebody packaged binaries for you as long as you can convince the bootstrap/base system to work 20:06
And we don't need to have anybody dedicated to supporting i386 just for you to try see if you can get something working on it. Granted you'll need to be wearing adult pants again, but most of the hard shared logic will be ready for you to abuse. 20:07
raschipi_ I have heard Gentoo was having a more critical lack of developers than other distributions. What has to be done once in other distros (write some combination of caommands that build the package), in Gentoo the developers are expected to generalize (write a program that builds this package in every conceivable configuration). 20:08
kentnl ( And we have built-in support for cross-compiling and running in prefixes, even though those features are themselves a bit fragile, people can get them to be useful despite the lack of maintainers ) 20:09
Yeah. Pretty much. We have to think more like a very caring upstream would, because we don't have the luxury of being able to control our build environment absolutely. 20:10
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kentnl Like, there's an entire class of problems for Perl5 ( '.' in @INC removal ) where debian users will have a much easier time than we will, and debian maintainers can work around it locally without needing to propagate the relevant hacks to users, simply because on debian, "build and test" only can happen on the maintainers machine 20:11
whereas gentoo supports both building and testing on the users machine.
( that's its most perlish aspect, the only thing its missing is a good equivalent of cpan-testers reporting system ) 20:12
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raschipi_ In Debian, the developer has to write a script that will build the package, it's called debian/control 20:14
It will be run by dak in every configuration debian supports (arch+kernel)
But it only has to support one configuration. (except for special cases in the toolchain) 20:15
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haxmeister kentnl: I think it would be an interesting study to build a linux distro with perl6 as the primary language for the package manager.. and extended perl6 support 20:16
kentnl: could call it Perly Linux 20:17
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raschipi_ That would be a very big endeavor. 20:17
kentnl Yeah, dibs not. :)
haxmeister kentnl: pick the core system and make a tarball with the new package manager..
kentnl The most insane thing I consider doing with Perl is writing an Init replacement, and I'm not insane enough to even write a line of that code. 20:18
haxmeister no need to replace init.. I'm suggesting after that level 20:19
perl6 is just so well suited to such a thing.. IMO more suited than python
raschipi_ Free software development is picking up steam faster than distros grow in capacity. That will lead to distro agglutination.
kentnl If you ever thought CPAN felt a bit like a graveyard some days, ... yeah. The whole of OpenSource is starting to look like that. 20:21
raschipi_ It's past the time a small group of people can go and launch a new distro. The bigger ones will eat the others.
haxmeister well I'm interested from a computer science standpoint..
nobody is going to make a fortune or a living off a new linux distro 20:22
but if the science of OS development is interesting to you (as it is to me).. then that could be exciting and fun
Geth Swapped META.info → META6.json in 2 dists in github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/5063dc0d67 20:23
raschipi_ Well, distro packaging is just devops on meth. It's a practical job that needs to be done. There's not much science to it, just new algorithms. OS development happens mostly outside distros. 20:24
haxmeister but my current interest is web scraping.. and especially if I can make that happen in perl6 :D
kentnl Yeah. Distro packaging is just a lot of grunt work, and then you eventually find a few ways of automating parts of that grunt work 20:25
haxmeister all methods are also subs/functions.. mind blowing perl6 magic 20:26
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[Coke] looks like perl6/doc's 'make xtest' is passing again, be nice if it kept passing. 20:27
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[Coke] not all methods are subs. 20:27
haxmeister the builtins pretty much are 20:28
well.. in practice it feels tha tway
really it's more like every built in sub is really a method
like .say and say "something" 20:29
or recent one I used .trans or trans()
[Coke] sure, a lot of them are. (but each one is coded manually, and not every one is.)
haxmeister that's handy perl6 magic.. means less looking up stuff 20:30
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haxmeister I can write it the way that makes most sense to me.. really all should be that way if they arent' 20:31
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haxmeister but if every function is also an object.. and a subclass of the top class at some point.. then yes they all are 20:31
raschipi_ The impression I have is that people complaining about GNOME or Red Hat or Systemd pushing things ot taking over things are actually feeling this problem where distros can't keep up with development. 20:32
alphah haxmeister: "I think it would be an interesting study to build a linux distro with perl6 as the primary language for the package manager.. and extended perl6 support", I'm actually doing that now, Writing package manager for a new distro with Perl6. I'm doing that as study to learn perl6, as I'm coming from System Admin background, and shell scripting, but no real development projects, so it's gonna be challenging.
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haxmeister alphah: your ripping my heart out.. if my talent level was high enough I would melt all over that 20:33
alphah: would still like to peak at it though
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alphah haxmeister: nothing serious tho, I'm still at early stage, github.com/alphah77/galaxy/tree/master , 20:35
haxmeister sweet 20:36
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haxmeister alphah: fun naming convention :D 20:39
the grammars... ugh.. greek to me..lol 20:40
alphah it's gonna be scientific Linux,, so it can amek sense :P... in Galaxy package manager world, a distro is "galaxy",, you can unisntall (or blackhole)) some packages,,, install, (or gravity) some packages ,, 20:41
yeah greek to me as well, when I look at it now :D 20:42
haxmeister lol
I'm still struggling to find what I need to read to produce a module or package so I can separate my code for cryin' outloud..lol 20:43
but hands down my favorite thing to do is regex.. I could do that all day 20:44
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alphah I don't know how to organize code as module or package as well :(, I just look at other projects and try to do same 20:52
haxmeister why is that such an obscure subject in perl6.. ?? 20:54
moritz docs.perl6.org/language/modules.html
perlpilot moritz++ 20:55
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raschipi_ When something is added to the ecosystem, is it uploaded automatically to CPAN? 20:56
lizmat raschipi_: no, but my hope is that soon we will be able to upload Perl 6 distributions to CPAN 20:57
act.qa-hackathon.org/qa2017/ # nine, tadzik and lizmat will be there 20:58
ugexe www.cpan.org/authors/id/N/NI/NINE/P...-0.26.meta - www.cpan.org/authors/id/N/NI/NINE/P....26.tar.gz 21:00
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ugexe meta file just needs to point at the .tar.gz but otherwise works already even 21:01
perlpilot lizmat: It would be useful if someone documented how to do it. Or, if there's still work to be done, documented what that work is. (I don't know if this is already on someone's agenda or not)
haxmeister that's a tough read moritz ..:/..lol
lizmat perlpilot: the problem isn't technical, really :-( 21:02
perlpilot lizmat: oh. Hrm. 21:03
lizmat it's more a PR / management type issue
perlpilot Well, I hope this year's toolchain summit works that stuff out then :)
lizmat that is my hope as well 21:04
haxmeister sounds like this year is going to be giant leaps for perl6 :)
lizmat perlpilot: it will be the 5th QA Hackathon / Toolchain Summit where this will be discussed :-( 21:05
act.qa-hackathon.org/qa2013/ was the first
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haxmeister sends good vibes to the hackathon preemptively 21:08
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haxmeister yeah I can't get zef goin 21:36
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haxmeister pastebin.com/Zm10bumu 21:39
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gfldex haxmeister: `perl6 -Ilib bin/zef install .` <-- please note the "." 21:44
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haxmeister what's the . for? 21:46
glob?
gfldex you run this inside the zef dir, what tells zef to install what it finds in the $CWD, what happens to be zef. 21:47
haxmeister oh.. ./ kk 21:48
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haxmeister well it seems to have worked 21:49
:-).. let's try zef now
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gfldex haxmeister: i would like to recommend `zef install META6::bin` 21:50
:->
haxmeister it put it in ~/.perl6/bin 21:51
out of PATH.. but that's ok
gfldex it may put more stuff there as time ticks by. Could be worth the hassle. 21:52
haxmeister just want to be careful .. can't do any root installs.. and I'll be fine
eventually gentoo/funtoo will catch up with perl6 module installs 21:53
lizmat and another Perl 6 Weekly hits the Net: p6weekly.wordpress.com/2017/05/08/...batross_i/
gfldex haxmeister: if you want it to talk to github look at the bottom of github.com/gfldex/perl6-meta6-bin#github
haxmeister ~/.perl6/bin $ ./zef install Selenium::WebDriver this seems to be working 21:54
timotimo "MoarVMproject" wants a space, lizmat :) 21:55
haxmeister gfldex: what is that for?.. how would that make it different?
gfldex: so zef can install from git?
lizmat timotimo: you're right, it does so now :-)
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gfldex haxmeister: META6::bin provides `meta6` what allows funky stuff like `meta6 --fork-module=META6::bin; cd perl6-meta6-bin; sh fix-all-the-bugs.sh` 21:57
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haxmeister yeah I have no idea what any of that is..lol 21:58
gfldex haxmeister: if you want to start you own module, you could run `meta6 --new-module=Haxmeister::S::Super::Module; cd perl6-haxmeister-s-super-module`
haxmeister oh ok..
but what I have now is sufficient for using modules currently available right? 21:59
gfldex and --fork-module does exactly what it says on the tin (if the module is on github that is)
haxmeister s/using/installing
gfldex zef will install modules just fine
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El_Che lizmat: "The past week felt a bit dreary, the weather was meh" <-- I read "meth" 22:00
:)
haxmeister gfldex: maybe I'll wait till I have something worth contributing before I worry abou tthat.lol
anywayy gotta go.. cheerz perl6
gfldex if you want to put a module into the ecosystem you need a proper `meta6.json`-file. That comes with quite a few pitfalls and that's why I wrote meta6.
El_Che thx lizmat for p6weekly 22:02
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lizmat :-) 22:02
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Geth doc: 6c2b8b201a | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 2 files
[io grant] Document IO::Path/IO::Handle.comb
 22:40
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samcv what is the POD6 variable? 23:24
dynamic variable
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samcv found it $=pod 23:29
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