»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend! 🦋
Set by Zoffix on 25 May 2018.
00:03 aborazmeh joined, aborazmeh left, aborazmeh joined 00:11 markoong left 00:19 kurahaupo left, kurahaupo joined 00:22 kurahaupo_ joined 00:24 kurahaupo left 00:26 kurahaupo_ left 00:38 kurahaupo joined 00:39 lookatme joined 00:48 itaipu left 00:51 stmuk joined, kurahaupo_ joined 00:54 kurahaupo left, stmuk_ left 01:00 kurahaupo_ left, kurahaupo joined 01:04 kurahaupo_ joined 01:06 kurahaupo left 01:15 kurahaupo_ left, kurahaupo joined 01:16 kurahaupo_ joined 01:19 kurahaupo left 01:28 raschipi left 01:31 molaf_ joined 01:35 molaf left 01:46 ilbot3 left 01:56 ilbot3 joined, ChanServ sets mode: +v ilbot3 02:01 espadrine left 02:20 MilkmanDan left 02:21 MilkmanDan joined 02:24 ufobat_ joined 02:27 ufobat left 02:30 Todd joined
Todd Hi All, I have a question about modules: vpaste.net/HG7wd 02:31
geekosaur I take it you did not understanbd my answer? 02:48
"unit module" has nothing to do with import or export
Do you understand what a namespace is? 02:49
02:49 lizmat left
Todd Are you Brandon? Namesapce means nothing to me, unfortunately. What I really would like to be able to do is `use RunNoShell < RunNoShell RunNoShellErr >;` 02:49
When I say "import", I mean "use xxx". does Import mean shomethign else in Perl? 02:50
I used the word "import" ans the word "export" is used my my module sub declarations. 02:52
geekosaur I am replying to your mail now 02:59
"use" does two things
one is "require", the other is "import"
"import" does not mean load from a file, it means copy a name from one namespace to another.
"require" loads from a file.
Uusally, your file loads things into its own private namespace with a "unit module" declaration. In this case, you need to either import them afterward, or use a name with the module's namespace (Foo::Bar) 03:00
Todd What I really would like to be able to do is `use RunNoShell < RunNoShell RunNoShellErr >;` 03:01
geekosaur If the file doesn;t declare itself as a separate module, it just dumps its declarations directly into your namespace; there is nothing to import afterward
then "unit module RunNoShell;" and mark those as "is export" 03:02
note that if you *also* want the long names with namespaces, you also need "our sub" instead of just "sub"
that is, with `use RunNoShell < RunNoShell RunNoShellErr >; `, you get RunNoShell but not RunNoShell::RunNoShell. Unless you declared "out sub RunNoShell" 03:04
er, "our sub RunNoShell"
(And yes, I'm Brandon.) 03:07
Todd short name space will do fine. If I can do `use RunNoShell < RunNoShell RunNoShellErr >;`, I can easily do a search of my code to figure out where the funny named sub came from.
geekosaur so there;s a bunch of different things going on, and some confusion because languages like Python don't separate 'require' from 'import'
Todd I eally, really want ot use `use RunNoShell < RunNoShell RunNoShellErr >;`. What do I have to do to my pm6 to be able to use that syntax? 03:08
geekosaur [04 03:02:07] <geekosaur> then "unit module RunNoShell;" and mark those subs as "is export"
Todd testing
# perl6 -I. -e 'use PrintColors< PrintRed PrintGreen>; PrintGreen( "Green\n" );' ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling -e Confused at -e:1 ------> use PrintColors⏏< PrintRed PrintGreen>; PrintGreen( "Gre 03:12
:'(
03:12 lizmat joined
Todd here is the module: vpaste.net/w2iAD 03:12
geekosaur you need a space 03:13
withoutt the space, it looks like you are subscripting something
foo<x> looks up key <x> in an Associative (Hash, and some other things) named foo 03:14
Todd [19:59] <geekosaur> "use" does two things
# perl6 -I. -e 'use PrintColors < PrintRed PrintGreen >; PrintGreen( "Green\n" );' ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling -e Error while importing from 'PrintColors': no EXPORT sub, but you provided positional argument in the 'use' statement at -e:1 ------> use PrintColors < PrintRed PrintGreen >⏏; PrintGreen( "Green\n" );
geekosaur mrr, right, some export machinery still needed
hm, no, should be automatic 03:15
this isn;t perl 5, you don;t need to use Exporter
Todd where ????!!!! and how ???
geekosaur oh
hm, no, am missing something still 03:16
Todd You have my paste pate of the module. Am I missing something?
geekosaur I'm missing something
geekosaur is installing stuff... had to nuke old p6 install, now missing modules 03:19
Todd adding `our` before the sub naem does not help
03:19 lizmat left
Todd been there. no problem. had it happen to me too. 03:19
geekosaur no, "our" means something different, it means being able to use the full name 03:20
not about importing the short name
Todd removing
geekosaur oh crap
this is not yet implemented
you can import specific tags but not specific subs yet
"Note there currently is no way for the user to import a single object if the module author hasn't made provision for that, and it is not an easy task at the moment (see RT #127305). One way the author can provide such access is to give each export trait its own unique tag. (And the tag can be the object name!)" 03:21
synopsebot RT#127305 [open]: rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=127305 EXPORT ignored when unit module/package is used
Todd no wonder! I will stick with
use PrintColors; # qx[ PrintRed PrintGreen PrintBlue PrintErr PrintRedErr PrintGreenErr PrintBlueErr ]
for now.
That way a search will find it and I won't go nuts trying to figure out where a sub came from. 03:22
03:22 Schepeers left
geekosaur so you'd have to do e.g. `use PrintColors <:PrintRed>;` and then the sub us `sub PrintRed($Str) is export(:PrintRed) ...` 03:22
which is a biit silly
Todd Wow. Thank you for all the marvelous help! This is nor Perl 5 (not grumpy enough) 03:23
signing off
geekosaur I remember the discussion abotu this now, it's hard to do right because it uses sub-namespaces which are hard to manipulate directy
03:24 lizmat joined 03:25 Schepeers joined 03:28 Schepeers left 03:29 lookatme left, lookatme joined 03:32 Schepeers joined, Schepeers left 03:33 Schepeers joined 03:54 Schepeers left 03:55 zpc left 03:56 Schepeers joined 04:18 Schepeers left 04:19 lizmat left, aborazmeh left, Schepeers joined 04:20 molaf_ left, lizmat joined 04:21 Schepeers left 04:22 Schepeers joined 04:33 wamba joined 04:35 lizmat left 04:39 molaf_ joined 04:40 [Sno] left 04:52 curan joined 04:56 psychoslave joined 04:57 Todd left 05:01 lizmat joined
buggable New CPAN upload: PDF-Class-0.2.3.tar.gz by WARRINGD modules.perl6.org/dist/PDF::Class:cpan:WARRINGD 05:04
05:10 skids left 05:14 HaraldJoerg joined 05:18 jmerelo joined 05:20 lizmat left 05:22 psychoslave left 05:34 domidumont joined 05:41 domidumont left 05:42 domidumont joined 05:46 domidumont left
buggable New CPAN upload: Acme-Truth-0.0.1.tar.gz by TISON cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/T/TI/...0.1.tar.gz 05:54
05:57 sno joined 06:00 xtreak joined 06:02 lizmat joined 06:03 domidumont joined 06:11 mscha left 06:13 psychoslave joined 06:17 BenGoldberg left 06:25 jmerelo left 06:31 andrzejku joined 06:57 psychoslave left 06:58 robertle_ joined 07:02 lizmat_ joined 07:04 lizmat left 07:05 jmerelo joined 07:17 Schepeers left 07:19 rindolf joined 07:29 psychoslave joined 07:30 andrzejku left 07:31 andrzejku joined 07:32 darutoko joined 07:35 zakharyas joined 07:37 robertle left 07:48 markoong joined 07:49 xtreak left
Geth doc: 736e101dc7 | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Language/nativecall.pod6
TWEAK → BUILD closes #1903
 07:52
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/nativecall
07:54 Schepeers joined 07:58 Schepeers left 07:59 Schepeers joined 08:04 Schepeers left 08:05 lizmat_ left, scimon joined 08:06 dogbert17 left 08:08 lizmat joined 08:09 lizmat_ joined 08:13 lizmat left, lizmat_ left 08:14 lizmat joined, xtreak joined 08:18 lizmat_ joined, lizmat left, lizmat_ is now known as lizmat 08:20 dakkar joined 08:21 dakkar left 08:23 dakkar joined 08:35 dakkar left 08:42 Schepeers joined 08:49 dakkar joined 08:50 Schepeers left 08:54 Schepeers joined 08:57 Kaypie joined, Kaiepi left 08:59 athenot joined
Geth whateverable: 8b639dc7b1 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | t/lib/Testable.pm6
Print IRC test server host and port

So that you can connect to it with any irc client and see what is happening with the bot.		 09:02
whateverable: 62a8d0d126 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | 2 files
Move pid printing to Testable.pm6

Previously it was not possible to get a pid of a process, but newer rakudos have a way to do it.
09:06 Schepeers left 09:08 Schepeers joined
AlexDaniel squashable6: log 2018-06-02 09:13
squashable6 AlexDaniel, Log and stats: gist.github.com/4c81dac1e4bace77b7...c3e4e3344b
09:22 w_richard_w left 09:25 wamba left, kurahaupo_ is now known as kurahaupo
buggable New CPAN upload: Acme-Truth-0.0.2.tar.gz by TISON modules.perl6.org/dist/Acme::Truth:cpan:TISON 09:54
10:07 psychoslave left 10:09 psychoslave joined 10:14 eythian_ joined, eythian_ left, eythian_ joined 10:15 araraloren joined, sunnavy_ joined, KotH_ joined 10:16 tony-o_ joined, perlawhi1l joined 10:18 MilkmanD1n joined 10:19 tobs_ joined, Voldenet_ joined, Mithaldu` joined 10:20 MilkmanDan left, Mithaldu left, spider-mario left, eythian left, irco left, go|dfish left, Voldenet left, sunnavy left, KotH left, tobs left, ingy left, perlawhirl left, tony-o left, tobs_ is now known as tobs, Mithaldu` is now known as Mithaldu 10:22 squashable6 left 10:23 squashable6 joined, greppable6 left, coverable6 left, coverable6 joined, greppable6 joined, quotable6 left, committable6 left, bisectable6 left 10:24 salva_ joined 10:27 ingy joined 10:28 go|dfish joined, spider-mario joined
jkramer I implemented a solution for this challenge: www.reddit.com/r/dailyprogrammer/c...e_numbers/ 10:33
My code: paste.pound-python.org/raw/cYMVdLr...wfXJooZPn/
No I wonder why my brute-force solution is so fast, especially for the last huge number. I also implemented it in haskell and it basically takes forever 10:34
Is there some hidden implicit optimisation going on or something? I'm really curious
Geth doc: d03a07cc0b | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
Add example on how to use Inline::Perl5
 10:37
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/5to6-nutshell
Geth doc: bc59e75b99 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
Everything in Perl 6 is an object
 10:42
colomon jkramer: I don’t think so 10:43
is-prime is fast
Geth doc: 14682928ba | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
&::('foo') -> ::('&foo')

Which I think makes more sense in this context, when you also say that you can create a `my &foo` to allow for run-time changing of subs.		 10:51
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/5to6-nutshell
10:56 athenot left 10:58 athenot joined 11:00 athenot left, andrzejku left 11:01 andrzejku joined
andrzejku araraloren: hey :D it is time to move from github 11:01
github sold
araraloren yeah, I know
El_Che Does someone at MIcrosoft dares tell their CEO Satya Nadella that he bought the hosting and infrastructure but not the code of the Github users? 11:02
araraloren haha 11:03
lizmat weekly: news.perlfoundation.org/2018/06/tpc...22018.html 11:04
notable6 lizmat, Noted!
El_Che I reserved my gitlab username, you never know
andrzejku El_Che: maybe they bought infrastructure and now they can control our code but they didn't bought my heart! 11:05
El_Che andrzejku: they don't need to buy it, killing it is enough :)
I look forward the the daily mail asking me I want to be part of a random user's network at Github 11:06
11:06 lumimies left 11:12 itaipu joined
Geth doc: 8341bcf70a | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
The comma makes the List, *not* the parentheses
 11:12
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/5to6-nutshell
Geth doc: e0ca4a2ada | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
The colon means a named variable, *not* a Pair

Specifying a Pair would be a Positional, and thus not match the signature.		 11:14
doc: d9eae798a7 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
Remove superstitious parentheses
 11:16
11:20 Voldenet_ is now known as Voldenet, Voldenet left, Voldenet joined, committable6 joined, ChanServ sets mode: +v committable6 11:21 jmerelo left
Geth doc: 08178e4e37 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
Hopefully clarify given / when a bit better
 11:26
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/5to6-nutshell
Geth doc: b3b8dd1215 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
Indicate that .lines will auto-chomp
 11:29
11:41 domidumont left 11:42 salva_ left 11:43 Xiti joined
Geth doc: f665d61fee | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
Add caveat about features supported by :P5
 11:44
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/5to6-nutshell
11:45 HaraldJoerg left, HaraldJoerg joined
Geth doc: cbb1ccd89b | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
Add concept of stubbing a class should you need to
 11:55
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/5to6-nutshell
11:58 eliasr joined
Geth doc: 19dd3226fa | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
Using native integers is the closest thing to "use integer"
 12:03
doc: 069c31cb26 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
Don't mention @INC, but say "use lib" acts mostly the same
doc: 179aeb8600 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
Mention .^mro with "use mro"
 12:04
doc: 36135dbb8c | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
Give example of native integers
 12:06
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/5to6-nutshell
12:06 jmerelo joined
El_Che jmerelo: is the grant over? 12:06
jmerelo El_Che: officially, yes. 12:07
It was only two months. Preparing reports and stuff now.
El_Che was it a good experience?
12:08 mahafyi joined
jmerelo El_Che: really good on all counts. Personal, technical, everything. 12:08
El_Che: ... gastronomical... 12:09
El_Che :) 12:10
good to hear
it looked from far, that from time ti time you were David against a Goliath stream of issues
jmerelo El_Che: Well, you have to fight Goliath stone by stone. 12:11
12:11 AlexDaniel left 12:12 AlexDaniel joined
jmerelo El_Che: roughly, there's 1 new issue a day. The problem was the backlog created by mid-2017, was not being cleared. 12:12
jkramer "Cowardly refusing to permutate more than 20 elements, tried 25" :(
m: say (1..25).permutations.elems 12:13
camelia Cowardly refusing to permutate more than 20 elements, tried 25
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
12:13 raschipi joined 12:14 KotH_ is now known as KotH
jmerelo jkramer: well, it's a NP-hard problem, if I'm correct. Makes sense... It's 25! = 1.551121e+25 12:14
12:14 pmurias joined
jmerelo P: say (1..9).permutations.elems 12:14
Geth doc: a91474a2e5 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
Clarify chompedness vs non-chompedness
jmerelo m: say (1..9).permutations.elems
camelia 362880
jmerelo m: say (1..10).permutations.elems
camelia 3628800
jmerelo m: say (1..11).permutations.elems
camelia 39916800
jmerelo m: say (1..12).permutations.elems 12:15
camelia 479001600
jmerelo m: say (1..12).permutations
camelia ((1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 12 11) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 11 10 12) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 11 12 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 12 10 11) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 12 11 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 9 11 12) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 9 12 11) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1…
jkramer m: say (1..20).permutations.elems
camelia 2432902008176640000
masak ...private camelia...? :)
lizmat jmerelo: actually, the .elems on the iterator takes a shortcut, so it actually doesn't matter for *that* case
jkramer Ah
lizmat however, when the iterator is created, we don't know if only .elems will be called or not 12:16
12:16 domidumont joined
lizmat and putting the check in .pull-one, would make standard use so much more expensice 12:16
*expensive
masak I don't think "NP-hard problem" is the right terminology here. the output grows very quickly as the factorial of the input, though. 12:17
perlawhi1l I've thought about this, and i don't think making (^21).permutations.elems is important. anyone doing that should be aware what a factorial is and get there that way 12:18
masak if all you're doing is .permutations.elems, then I have a quicker way for you :) 12:19
m: sub postfix:<!>($N) { [*] 2..$N }; say 9!; say 12!; say 21! 12:20
camelia 362880
479001600
51090942171709440000
perlawhi1l exactly... factorial 12:21
jast I believe the correct term is EXPSPACE 12:26
masak jast: I don't see how this is a decision problem at all. it's just "generate this list" 12:27
even if it were a decision problem, it would only be EXPSPACE if you needed to keep all the permutations in memory while you were doing something 12:28
which you don't, if you're just looping over them and printing them out
jmerelo masak: probably not. NP, sure.
jast it could be phrased as a decision problem 12:29
jmerelo masak: it's non-polynomial time, I guess. 12:30
jast and, well, looping and output work a little differently when the definition is based on a Turing machine, which doesn't have an output stream
masak jmerelo: "NP" stands for "nondeterministic polynomial time"
jast the output of a Turing machine is a segment of its memory/tape
masak where "nondeterministic" can often be interpreted as "unbeliavably lucky" 12:31
jast that's a nice way of putting it
masak like, if the Turing machine needs to make a number of choices in a choice tree, it just happens to pick the choices that lead directly to a solution
jmerelo masak: And I should know. So wrong again :-) 12:32
masak think of 8-queens, for example. a nondeterministic Turing machine would just go ahead, in the first iteration without any searching, and place all the queens in a correct way.
jast I always found it easiest to visualize non-deterministic processing by looking at non-deterministic finite state machines 12:33
each state can have multiple transitions and applying the state machine to an input magically tests all of a state's transitions at once 12:34
Geth doc: 0ac7f149c7 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
Add section on importing groups of subs
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/5to6-nutshell
12:35 xtreak left 12:36 xtreak joined 12:39 xtreak_ joined, mcmillhj joined, xtreak left, athenot joined
Geth doc: 877783ccd0 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
Mention "dd" in the Data::Dumper section
 12:40
12:41 athenot left
lizmat and that concludes my work on 5to6-nutshell for now& 12:41
El_Che turing? turing-game.tech 12:42
jmerelo lizmat++ 12:43
Geth doc: d3e1cd0053 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
fix some compilation issues
 12:44
doc: 7303608f43 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | doc/Language/numerics.pod6
whitespace
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/numerics
jast 30 seconds to judge someone? most people can't even type two sentences in that time
jmerelo lizmat: is butterfly project over? Congrats! 12:45
lizmat jmerelo: over? It's just beginning :-) 12:47
jmerelo lizmat: just the documentation work, then 12:48
lizmat: or the documentation pertaining the particular file you just mentioned, at least... Anyway, congrats. 12:49
12:49 Ven`` joined
lizmat jmerelo: I'm going to give a tutorial at TPCiSLC: perlconference.us/tpc-2018-slc/ses...do-perl-6/ 12:50
and wanted to make sure that all 5to6 docs are correct and up to date
they're a bit of a prereq for participation
BTW. only 5 places left :-) 12:51
jmerelo lizmat: great :-)
Ven`` o/, #perl6 12:53
raschipi oi, Ven`` 12:58
12:59 sno left
Geth doc: ce11ba2250 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
allow dd
 13:07
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/5to6-nutshell
Geth doc: 0168931650 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
Change Inline::Perl5 example to use core module

DBI may not be installed in Perl 5		 13:08
13:09 epony left
Geth doc: bada1ca5d5 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
Make output comments for clean test
 13:11
13:11 jmerelo left
[Coke] As one of the people who was very excited for rakudo on jvm back in the day, these days I'm much more likely to run rakudo on moarvm in docker. 13:12
(For $dayjob)
13:14 Ven`` left
Geth doc: 795c1c77bc | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
And there I thought you could inherit from a stub
 13:14
13:15 xtreak_ left, xtreak joined
[Coke] lizmat: there's a bunch of stuff involving compilation units that the examples compiler doesn't get right, I'm just saying it doesn't pass the test is all. :) 13:16
you can always add a :skip-test if you've tested it locally and are happy with it. (like we do with anything involving a "unit") 13:17
13:17 epony joined, xtreak left
lizmat [Coke]: I just tested in a script, you're not allowed to do it :-) 13:17
[Coke] yay, test! :) 13:23
lizmat perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=1215821 # any takers ? 13:24
[Coke] can't believe you tricked me into clicking on a perlmonks link.
Geth doc: ac058c9725 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
Mention modules of the CPAN Butterfly Plan
 13:39
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/5to6-nutshell
13:42 wamba joined 13:46 wamba1 joined, wamba left
buggable New CPAN upload: vars-0.0.3.tar.gz by ELIZABETH modules.perl6.org/dist/vars:cpan:ELIZABETH 14:04
14:09 araraloren left 14:10 araraloren joined 14:15 sno joined 14:16 molaf_ left
Geth doc: d1f39dd2ee | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-perlvar.pod6
Use numification / stringification shortcuts
 14:16
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/5to6-perlvar
Geth doc: 08aa4edd16 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-perlvar.pod6
Another stringification shortcut
 14:22
doc: fc25c25705 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-perlvar.pod6
Oops, fix typo, MasterDuke++
 14:26
14:27 skids joined 14:28 curan left, mcmillhj left, molaf_ joined
Geth doc: f943b41997 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
Can't have two "for code" blocks

And the skip-test makes the preamble obsolete		 14:31
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/5to6-nutshell
14:36 mcmillhj joined 15:04 sno left, molaf_ left 15:09 molaf joined
Geth doc: 936bad2280 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-perlvar.pod6
Expand %SIG section with some examples
 15:09
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/5to6-perlvar
15:22 domidumont1 joined 15:25 domidumont left 15:26 domidumont1 left
Geth doc: 4234cc26bf | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Language/5to6-perlvar.pod6
Give $NR a more idiomatic Perl 6 example without using a meta-operator
 15:27
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/5to6-perlvar
15:34 ExtraCrispy joined
araraloren m: use experimental :macro; macro { #`(something can access $OUTER::x;) quasi { 1; } }; sub foo { my $x is dynamic = 20; }; sub bar { #`(access $OUTER::x) say $OUTER::x; }; bar } 15:38
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Error while importing from 'experimental': no such tag 'macro'
at <tmp>:1
------> 3use experimental :macro7⏏5; macro { #`(something can access $OUTER
15:39 zakharyas left
araraloren Can I declare something like C macro ? 15:39
15:39 jmerelo joined
araraloren m: use experimental :macro; macro ACCESSX { #`(something can access $OUTER::x;) quasi { 1; } }; sub foo { my $x is dynamic = 20; }; sub bar { say ACCESSX; say $OUTER::x; }; bar } 15:40
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Error while importing from 'experimental': no such tag 'macro'
at <tmp>:1
------> 3use experimental :macro7⏏5; macro ACCESSX { #`(something can acces
15:41 wamba1 left
araraloren m: use experimental :macros; macro ACCESSX { #`(something can access $OUTER::x;) quasi { 1; } }; sub foo { my $x is dynamic = 20; }; sub bar { say ACCESSX; say $OUTER::x; }; bar } 15:42
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Unexpected closing bracket
at <tmp>:1
------> 3ar { say ACCESSX; say $OUTER::x; }; bar 7⏏5}
araraloren m: use experimental :macros; macro ACCESSX { #`(something can access $OUTER::x;) quasi { 1; } }; sub foo { my $x is dynamic = 20; }; sub bar { say ACCESSX; say $OUTER::x; }; bar
camelia 1
Nil
15:43 matiaslina joined
araraloren m: use experimental :macros; macro ACCESSX { #`(something can access $OUTER::x;) quasi { 1; } }; sub foo { my $x is dynamic = 20; bar }; sub bar { say ACCESSX; say $OUTER::x; }; foo 15:43
camelia 1
Nil
15:45 wamba joined 15:51 robertle_ left 15:53 jdoege joined
jdoege Hi all. Hope you are having a great Monday. Question: is there an idomatic way to tell if you are on the last interation? 15:54
Juerd jdoege: You can use a LAST phaser 15:55
m: for ^5 { .say; LAST { "$_ again".say } } 15:56
camelia 0
1
2
3
4
4 again
15:56 araraloren left 15:58 xtreak joined
jdoege That seems to execute after the last iteration is complete. Is there a way to know when you are entering the code block that you are on the last iteration? 15:59
But, thank you for the pointer to phasers, I will look at them more closely.
Juerd I don't know and it wouldn't be possible for all use cases, because you can't always know whether the current iteration is the last one 16:01
Not without having a peek at the next item, that is
jdoege I am doing it right now by pre-determining the last index and checking the index during execution but that seems clumsy to add an index to iterting over a list just to figure out if you are on the last element. 16:02
Juerd I'm curious why you want this :) 16:03
raschipi m: for @list {say "NO MORE" when 'last'; .say } 16:04
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Variable '@list' is not declared. Did you mean any of these?
&list
List
&last
&gist

at <tmp>:1
------> 3for 7⏏5@list {say "NO MORE" when 'last'; .say }
jdoege Because the last element needs to handled differently than all the other elements.
raschipi m:my @list = 1,2,3,4,last; for @list {say "NO MORE" when 'last'; .say }
evalable6 (exit code 1) ===SORRY!===
last without loop construct
raschipi m:my @list = 1,2,3,4,'last'; for @list {say "NO MORE" when 'last'; .say }
evalable6 1
2
3
4
NO MORE
last
Juerd raschipi: Wouldn't work for non-unique values 16:05
16:06 xtreak left
Juerd m: role LastItem { }; my @foo = ^5; @foo[* - 1] does LastItem; for @foo { say "last" when LastItem; .say } 16:06
camelia 0
1
2
3
last
4
Juerd jdoege: No index needed ;)
@foo.tail is prettier than @foo[* - 1], by the way
Also, could just use identity equivalence: 16:07
jdoege That looks promising. Thank you.
raschipi m: my @list = 1,2,3,4,'last'; for @list.kv -> $k , $v {say "NO MORE" when $k == @list.elems - 1; say $v }
camelia 1
2
3
4
NO MORE
last
Juerd m: my @foo = ^5; for @foo { say "last" when $_ =:= @foo.tail; .say }
camelia 0
1
2
3
last
4
Juerd m: my @foo = 1, 2, 3, 1; for @foo { say "last" when $_ =:= @foo.tail; .say }
camelia 1
2
3
last
1
Juerd (Should probably just have used 'if' instead of 'when' there) 16:08
raschipi m: role LastItem { }; my @foo = ^5; @foo.tail does LastItem; for @foo { say "last" when LastItem; .say } 16:10
camelia 0
1
2
3
last
4
jdoege The array is likely to contain many cases of non-unique values, so the example that truncates the list and then handles the last item seperately is probably the best for my purposes.
raschipi I think that way it's self-explanatory
Juerd jdoege: That'd be fine if the entire handling is different, but in that case I wonder whether it should have been part of the list in the first place.
jdoege Though that "role" "does" approach also looks promising. Thanks muchly for your help! 16:11
Juerd jdoege: Roles are great because you can add them to existing values, regardless of their type.
16:11 xtreak joined
jdoege The list is returned from a grammar. The task is a format shift and the last item gets handled differently from a formatting POV. 16:12
Time to learn about roles! :-D Thanks again!
16:13 wamba left
raschipi The "does" attaches out-of-band information to the last item, which is a good way of dealing with it in a different way without changing it. 16:13
Juerd jdoege: You could even add a formatting role to all of the items, and a different formatting role to the last one 16:15
jdoege: And then iterate over them, and have a method like .formatted return the item formatted correctly without any explicit conditionals in the loop
In fact, depending on the situation it might even make sense to just provide a Str to implement custom stringification 16:16
16:16 mcmillhj left 16:20 xtreak left, domidumont joined
Juerd m: my role LastItem { method Str { "four!" } }; my @foo = ^5; @foo.tail does LastItem; say @foo.join(", ") 16:20
camelia 0, 1, 2, 3, four!
jdoege That is looking a lot like what I was hoping for. 16:21
Juerd It might just be a bit too clever 16:22
16:22 pluto joined
jdoege Many things in Perl6 are :-D 16:22
But once an approach becomes commonplace it isn't so "clever" anymore. 16:23
16:24 raschipi left
Juerd m: my role Item { method formatted { "({ self })" } }; my role LastItem { method formatted { "[[{ self }]]" } }; my @foo = ^5; @foo >>does>> Item; @foo.tail does LastItem; say @foo>>.formatted 16:24
camelia [(0) (1) (2) (3) [[4]]]
Juerd jdoege: The problem with a custom .Str is that you may want to use the original too 16:25
16:26 mcmillhj joined, sno joined 16:27 raschipi joined
pluto hello. I have a question regarding map routine and whatever: given 1..4 { .map( * => * ).say; } results in (1 => 2 3 => 4) but what i expected was (1 =>1 2=>2...). what am i missing? Thanks 16:27
raschipi pluto: each splat will be a new argument to the lambda created 16:28
Juerd pluto: .map will eat as many items as the provided subroutine will take, and each * is a different parameter
raschipi m: given 1..4 { .map({ $^a => $a }).say; } 16:29
camelia (1 => 1 2 => 2 3 => 3 4 => 4)
Juerd pluto: So you can't use the given value twice with *. Use a regular routine with {} instead: given 1..4 { .map(-> $x { $x => $x }).say }
pluto rascipi is splat the same as whatever?
Juerd IIRC, splat is written the same as whatever, and the same as multiply, but they're different things. 16:30
16:30 scimon left
Juerd * in "sub foo (*@foo)" is splat, * in "5 * 5" is multiply, * in "* + *" is whatever 16:31
* in "sub foo(*@foo) { return * * * }" is just too confusing :)
16:31 Possum joined
pluto raschipi, Juerd very helpfull explenations, thanks 16:32
16:32 mcmillhj left
raschipi Splat is another name for the asterisk. 16:32
16:32 dakkar left
pluto raschipi: ah.. ok 16:32
Juerd Is it, though?
ilmari the * in "sub foo (*@foo) { ... }" is slurpy, isn't it? 16:33
16:33 psychoslave left
Juerd "splat n. 1. Name used in many places (DEC, IBM, and others) for the asterisk (*)" -- The Jargon File 16:33
TIL :D
"2. [MIT] Name used by some people for the # character (ASCII 0100011)." 16:34
argh :)
16:35 pluto left
raschipi Juerd: -> $x { $x => $x } better written as {$^x => $x}. The first one will leave people wondering y tho. 16:37
16:38 mcmillhj joined 16:39 comborico1611 joined
raschipi Pointy subs better left for when destructuring is gonna be used, IMHO. 16:40
jmerelo A bit of more data on Perl6/doc issues www.google.com/fusiontables/DataSo...GOzuXr-s6L Last two months rank 2nd and 4th in number of issues opened. 16:43
Also, last 3 months are ranked 1st, 2nd and 5th with the highest number of issues closed.
16:44 mcmillhj left
jmerelo (That's PRs _and_ issues, sorry) 16:44
raschipi Can you do the same but excludding any issues labeled NOTSPECCED, wishlist or external? 16:46
16:48 mcmillhj joined
jmerelo raschipi: guess so. 16:48
skids Juerd: It's not like we really needed something more geek-chic than "star" 16:49
raschipi I would like to see it, can you do it if it's not much effort?
16:49 kurahaupo left
jmerelo raschipi: doing it now 16:50
raschipi jmerelo: k thank you
17:00 psychoslave joined 17:05 wamba joined 17:10 Schepeers left 17:11 Schepeers joined
jmerelo raschipi: here you go github.com/JJ/TPF-Grant/blob/maste...issues.png There's some difference, and it's increasing, but it's not really the main thing. 17:11
I would say "big" issues tend to get older than those. Besides, there are not so many.
raschipi thanks again 17:14
Juerd raschipi: I disagree about the implicit argument being "better" than the pointy sub. TIMTOWTDI, and I think these are equal.
jmerelo raschipi: I don't know if you saw the report I wrote about that www.researchgate.net/publication/3...ith_issues I examine age vs type. There are some differences, but they are not big 17:15
raschipi: not because NOTSPECCED and things like that take forever to be solved (or never are), but because some with the "docs" or "update" ticket also take a long time.
raschipi: as a matter of fact, the faster to be solved are those with no label at all. 17:16
raschipi Or the other way around, the ones that get solved quickly don't get any labels.
jmerelo raschipi: that's probably the right way to see it. 17:17
17:19 psychoslave left 17:20 aindilis left 17:21 aindilis joined
Juerd Causation could be reversed: they might not have gotten any labels because they could be resolved quickly :D 17:21
Sorry, late response and basically the same as raschipi's (latency due to someone at the door)
jmerelo Juerd: I never talked about causation :-). Correlation is not causation, always. I would say you are both right, a priori. 17:25
But as a scientist, anecdotal evidence is never evidence :-). Also labels change with time, and some disappear and are erased. So I would say that's roughly right, but if I had to write that in a paper reviewer #3 would complain. 17:26
raschipi I only said what I said to imply what you just said. It's not possible to determine which one causes the other with the data we have. 17:29
17:32 mcmillhj left 17:34 mahafyi left
Geth doc: 779310a53d | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | doc/Language/functions.pod6
fix pod error
 17:38
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/functions
Geth doc: 136bc5b1ad | (Rafael Schipiura)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/5to6-perlvar.pod6
Change paragraph to explain the new code
 17:47
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/5to6-perlvar
17:48 sena_kun joined 18:00 raynold joined 18:01 kurahaupo joined
[Coke] is scared off by jetbrains' warning about other plugins processing his data remotely. 18:09
jmerelo raschipi: well, I could dig up all the events related to a particular issue, as well as last-update dates. If I eventually publish a real paper, I might have to do it anyway.
[Coke] tries to install the markdown plugin. scroll to the end of a long page of release notes to find the URL. move to click, tab scrolls back to the top, moving the URL out of the way so I cannot click on it. 18:10
18:13 natrys joined 18:21 sauvin left 18:32 comborico1611 left 18:34 damaxi joined 18:35 lichtkind joined
damaxi will perl6 move out from github? 18:35
moritz I don't think there's any reason to do or even decide that right now 18:37
jmerelo damaxi: why should it? 18:38
damaxi moritz: github is own3d
I know many bad things which Microsoft committed to the FOSS community
now they are trying to destroy it once again 18:39
jmerelo damaxi: it was pwn3d before by a private company, that has decided what's best for them and of course the company. I don't really think it's a big deal.
moritz damaxi: one for-profit company is sold to another for-profit company
jmerelo In fact, every hosted repository out there belongs to a private company. They might be more or less free-software based, but gitlab is also a private company.
moritz and given that github itself wasn't profitable, being bought by a company with big pockets and a reputation to lose might not be the worst option 18:40
jmerelo We can move to a self-hosted solution, but then we will depend on the (private) hosting company too.
moritz++
18:40 domidumont left, jdoege left
moritz we, I'm not going to self-host a gitlab instance 18:40
damaxi you can host perl6 at home 18:41
jmerelo moritz: me neither. "self" means "self". You have to administer, take care of security, add/take out users...
damaxi: we _do_ host perl6 at home. Everyone of us has a private copy of the repo. Bad comes to worse, git push to a new place, and not a lot is lost.
damaxi: Microsoft has changed _a lot_ 18:42
damaxi: that does not change what it's done in the past, but companies do not have an "original sin" they have to atone for. Different CEOs, they are like a different thing.
damaxi I have fish brain to forget what Microsoft did to open source and even the guy who said that Linux is cancer
jmerelo I mean, Microsoft with Satya Nadella looks as much as the previous Microsoft as Perl6 looks like Perl5. It's still Microsoft, but a lot has changed. 18:43
damaxi: I've seen the Satya Nadella say they love open source, and github mentioned in their product presentations. 18:44
I've had more PRs accepted by Microsoft in GitHub than by Github in Github, in fact :-)
damaxi jmerelo: one day you will remmember my words and come here to cry 18:45
remind
18:46 espadrine joined
jmerelo damaxi: I prefer to cry at home and not in IRC channels. 18:46
moritz damaxi: that might well be; it might equally well be that we spend resources for naught on migration 18:47
time will tell
typically, acquired services, if they degrade, degrade over time, not stop working immediately
that gives us time to migrate if necesary
jmerelo damaxi: but really, I have 500+ repos in GitHub. I don't think taking them to other company is an option. I do have them in my disk drives. Push comes to shove, push it to the next big repo hosting thing.
damaxi moritz: thats right
at least we have still a bit time 18:48
raschipi I have the same opinion damaxi regarding Microsoft, but it's git anyway, we can always commit the code to another hosting company in case Microsoft decides to do it's usual thing.
jmerelo moritz: I really don't see any clear and present danger. People kinda think Microsoft is going to close GitHub and leave them hanging in the cold. That's not going to happen any time soon.
damaxi jmerelo: it depends 18:49
jmerelo: I am hostring privatly on github illegal content 18:50
and for sure Microsoft starts to scan all content there
raschipi Don't know why you would think Gitlab or others would do something different ragarding your content. 18:51
jmerelo BTW, that's me (in the middle), with a Camelia Tee, a Microsoft employee, and a current Microsoft MVP www.flickr.com/photos/atalaya/3417...datetaken/ visiting MS headquarters in SEattle. 18:52
raschipi nice photo, jmerelo
jmerelo damaxi: GitHub is still a private company. They might not have the resources to do that, but if they did, that will probably go against their terms of service and they might erase or kick you out. 18:53
raschipi: thanks :-) 18:54
raschipi I only hope Microsoft stops threatening my clients soon. 18:55
damaxi the good about Gitlab it is self hosted 18:56
jmerelo raschipi: your mileage with MS may vary. Some are still "old school", and of course some still have to sell Office and Windows. But that's not their cash crop right now, so things are changing.
damaxi I think the good solution for open source would be decentralized open source repo infrastructure 18:57
jmerelo damaxi: that's the very definition of git.
raschipi They threaten to sue anyone that's not using Azure. They are just another Oracle from my point of view. Oracle "loves open-source" too.
damaxi we can choice the server whatever we want and connect to the rest of world with intentation to overlook all repos
moving out and hiding from big companies is a trap 18:58
they eat you for dinner anyway
AlexDaniel moving the source code is never a problem, it's bug tracking that is hard
even moving a wiki is relatively easy, and pull requests are perhaps not that critical
jmerelo AlexDaniel: I do have all perl6/doc issues backed up. It might be a good idea to do the same with others. 18:59
But really, does anyone think that Microsoft has bought GitHub to shut it down and mess with all those evil open source developers?
AlexDaniel in fact, given the distributed nature of git, we can have a few devs to push to several upstreams at the same time… git repo itself is really a non-issue
19:00 darutoko left
raschipi I wouldn't be surprised if they are interested in GitHub's patents only and start threatening everyone that isn't paying GitHub soon. 19:01
AlexDaniel so the question is more like, is there any convenient place for tracking issues, where everyone already has an account? Or something like that… 19:02
raschipi Well, using Github, I doubt they will threaten people using it for free.
jmerelo raschipi: all 6 of them? patents.google.com/?assignee=Github%2c+Inc. 19:03
raschipi Yeah, they only patented git itself, nothing more.
19:03 comborico1611 joined
jmerelo raschipi: You can't patent git... 19:04
raschipi It's in the link you gave me: " Distributed code repository with limited synchronization locking" US 2017/0185627 A1 19:05
jmerelo Most patents are about "limited synchronization"
damaxi I think a half of world should dispatch from US patents
if someone want to live in patented world than thats okay for me but don't claim people who invent the same things then
jmerelo raschipi: that's not git. It probably uses git, but could as well use something else like bazaar. Git is a program, and it's free software, and it does not belong to GitHub. 19:06
raschipi Yes, Microsoft has a long history of misrepresenting patents to threaten people. Anyway, anyone using git without being on github can receive a letter saying they own money to Microsoft. It's how they operate.
phogg You probably can't win a lawsuit against someone who is infringing on your patent on git features, but you can spend a few years pursuing such a suit while claiming publicly that everyone who uses git owes you money. SCO used this tactic; it's still not quite done.
19:07 jdoege joined
raschipi Microsoft does it all the time. Android is their most lucrative operating system because of it. 19:07
jmerelo raschipi: really, you're blowing things out or proportion. GitHub does not own git. Period.
raschipi: and if they owned it, they're still a private company. They're not the FSF. They could have pursued people infringing their patents with or without microsoft. 19:08
raschipi Microsoft also doesn't own Android. Yet they make a lot of money threatening people saying they do.
jmerelo raschipi: Google owns Android.
raschipi GitHub wanted goodwill. Microsoft just astroturfs it. 19:09
El_Che jmerelo: MS bought github to make it succeed, not out of evil plans! Looks on how they saved the Zune, Skype en Windows phone!
oh crap
:)
raschipi: git and github don't have much in common despite the name 19:10
jmerelo El_Che: and Nokia!
El_Che oh yeah, forgot how they saved nokia :)
It feels like a Star Wars-Disney moment
Github-MS 19:11
moritz I'm awefully sorry, but I had to shut down the IRC logs
raschipi I know they don't have much in common. Microsoft targets legal departments and clueless VPs.
jmerelo moritz: now that's bad news. GDPR strikes?
moritz jmerelo: yes
El_Che moritz: someone complained? 19:12
jmerelo Can't we back it up somewhere outside the EU?
19:12 ilbot3 left
El_Che jmerelo: no 19:12
geekosaur would like to point out that git was born of opposition to corporate/business chicanery and its owners will likely fight back if it is attempted
19:13 dwarring joined
geekosaur and will have considerable support 19:13
El_Che don't pick a fight with Linus :)
raschipi They will do the same they do with Android: nada.
AlexDaniel well, we still have colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6
geekosaur yesyesyes whatever you say]
moritz El_Che: no; it's not compliant. That's enough reason to shut ti down
geekosaur thank you for edumacating us dotards
jmerelo geekosaur: git does not have "owners". It has developers. Nobody "owns" a particular free software. It's owned by developers, users and everyone. That's the whole point.
[Coke] most of the MS/github chat is off topic for #perl6
geekosaur now tell ius what else we need to jknow
AlexDaniel I talked to them regarding GDPR, and it seems like irc logging in general is compliant 19:14
but IANAL and so are they, so 🤷
jmerelo shuts down regarding this thing...
geekosaur jmerelo, there's a legal owner somewhere
unless they really think "owned by everyone but not public domain" works in court (hint: no.)
which would more or less prevent corporate use 19:15
also, copyright asignee, since it is GPL
never mind, people will believe what they wish to believe. and be confused when the truth appears because it can't possibly be the truth 19:16
[Coke] wonders if we can fix the emojis at colabti
AlexDaniel [Coke]: but they work fine?
[Coke] ah, in HTML they're fine.
but not "raw"
good enough for me, thanks.
jmerelo And here's the second month grant report jj.github.io/TPF-Grant/May.html 19:17
Data and all the stuff is at the repo github.com/JJ/TPF-Grant
AlexDaniel I'll go bug them about raw pages
jmerelo Please consider it a "release candidate". Any other thing you want me to include, please open an issue.
jmerelo goes AFK for today. 19:18
raschipi jmerelo: sorry for closing #114.
jmerelo raschipi: no problem at all, c'mon!
raschipi: you did well, and created other issues. Thanks for that!
raschipi I was tired of you complaining about it.
jmerelo I wasn't so much complaining as asking for help with it... 19:19
But it's OK, no problem. I'm really AFK now. Bye!
raschipi I mean that in a good way, I though you were frustrated by it.
19:20 jmerelo left 19:21 idiosyncrat joined
El_Che moritz: thank you for the service 19:29
19:29 uzl joined
El_Che moritz: I don't think GPDR forces you to close it, but I understand you don't feel like taking on the burder of the risk. Thank you 19:29
[Coke] moritz++ indeed 19:30
El_Che burden
moritz has been running that service for 11 years, and is literally crying right now
El_Che moritz: wouldn't be anonymising hostnames/ip's enough? 19:31
uzl pretty sad the irc log is gone!
idiosyncrat moritz: on behalf of the Marpa community I want to thank you for all you've done for us all these years.
yoleaux 16 May 2018 23:16Z <TimToady> idiosyncrat: no, I never calculated the states myself, though I did study the dragon book enough to know I didn't want to do that; I also spent many hours stepping through the yacc/byacc/bison tables to debug various issues, but mostly I just relied on the shift/reduce and reduce/reduce reports to know where I was pushing it :)
uzl I guess that means there won't be any log around for what's going on a regular basis on the channel. 19:32
moritz El_Che: no. If there is personal data in the IRC logs, I have to inform the people that the PII is *about*. If somebody says "John Doe lives in Example Road 2, 91056 Fürth, Germany", that is PII
El_Che: and there is no freaking way I can check all the logs for such information, possibly even in languages I don't understand 19:33
idiosyncrat moritz: you did so much for us, it was easy to take it for granted.
moritz idiosyncrat: my pleasure
idiosyncrat yoleaux: Thanks!!
El_Che moritz: it looks like a rather extreme example where everything taking randons string input is affected 19:34
host moritzLivesINGermanStreetAustriaWorld.com
curl fbi.com/moritzLivesINGermanStreetAu...aWorld.com
and so on
moritz El_Che: that might be, but it is my understanding of DSGV (German implementation of GDPR), and I don't have the resources to verify it is not so 19:35
if anybody is willing to pay me so that I can pay a laywer to assure me otherwise, I might reconsider
[Coke] if I could pay you for a lawyer, I'd get one for myself! :) 19:36
El_Che moritz: I am party involved at the technical side of gdpr for our university (120k+ persons) and the stance is "take it easy"
let's fix the obvious and go from there
AlexDaniel wonders what to do with all these broken links to irc logs
El_Che moritz: I am not trying to convince as I respect your decision, I just warning against a too strict interpretation of it
moritz noted 19:37
[Coke] alexdaniel;any way to translate them to the other log's URLs?
AlexDaniel [Coke]: I don't think so, I'm talking about all the links that are spread over… well, everything. Bug reports, git commits, blog posts, whatever… 19:38
19:38 comborico1611 left, comborico1611_ joined
pmurias argh our irc logs have been shut down by bullshit EU bureaucracy :( 19:39
idiosyncrat yoleaux: in the sense I intended the question, it sounds like Larry did work with the LALR states.
AlexDaniel maybe it would make sense to publish a small subset of logs for days that are hit often
El_Che pmurias: laws aren't bureaucracy, that's the implementation :) 19:40
idiosyncrat I know how large a task working them out for Perl 1 (never mind the successors) would have been, and never imagined he'd try to calculate them from scratch.
By "working with the states" I meant actually delving into them when necessary for debugging -- 19:41
El_Che moritz: the obligatory xkdb for finding adresses in logs: xkcd.com/208/
idiosyncrat which when it comes to yacc means really really often.
19:42 sena_kun left, dogbert17 joined
raschipi GPDR kills any chance anyone in Europe has to inovate in the Internet. It's just too big of a burden. And anyone with a new service aywhere else will have to block them out so they don't have to deal with it. 19:47
pmurias moritz: have you considered linking colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6? 19:48
El_Che for the record: I love the GPDR 19:50
moritz pmurias: I'll add that as the redirect target for irc.perl6.org 19:51
El_Che Being tracked and targetted is not innovation
that's 1984
AlexDaniel raschipi: I don't understand why you need my personal data to innovate
19:52 hankache joined
hankache no more irc logs :/ 19:53
AlexDaniel huggable: irc logs
huggable AlexDaniel, nothing found
AlexDaniel huggable: logs
huggable AlexDaniel, nothing found
AlexDaniel huggable: irc
huggable AlexDaniel, nothing found
AlexDaniel COME ON
huggable: clog
huggable AlexDaniel, nothing found
AlexDaniel hankache: anyway, it's colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 for now 19:54
hankache thanks AlexDaniel 19:55
moritz seems to have shut down his.
19:55 jdoege left
raschipi hankache: check the IRC logs... Oh. 19:56
19:57 quotable6 joined, undersightable6 left, undersightable6 joined
kurahaupo raschipi: if you think it's too much of a burden, maybe some customers won't want to deal with you? 19:57
19:58 jaush joined
raschipi Look, the IRC logs are being shut down. Europeans can make demands, but not everyone can deal with it. 19:59
19:59 lucasb joined
hankache who's running colibati? 20:00
jaush where can i find the rules governing the interaction of dynamically-scoped variables and the REPL? 20:02
giving me rope to hang myself: is each "input" a separate "file" for the purposes of scoping?
raschipi Does anyone know if riot.im keeps logs?
jaush: it's not, but it also has many quircks, so it's not the same as everything being in the same file. 20:03
geekosaur it's a separate inner scope iirc
which is a bit screwy and can bite you unexpectedly
lucasb so... what about the years of irc log ? will there be a database dump somewhere? 20:05
jaush is there a document(s) somewhere that gives an overview of in-file vs. in-REPL behavior differences?
20:06 damaxi left
lucasb I'm worried about all the design discussion that happened here getting lost 20:06
ah, colabti goes as far as 2005 20:07
hankache what if colibati gets shut down? 20:08
we need some sort of future proof solution
raschipi The logs are difficult to deal with because you need to scrub them of any personal information, because you don't have permission otherwise. 20:10
Even keeping them is a problem.
Like moritz said above, a good part of it isn't even in English. 20:11
moritz future proof would likely be hosting it in Russia
hankache hello moritz 20:12
20:12 matiaslina left
hankache thank you for hosting irc logs for so long. They will be missed 20:12
raschipi Thank you, moritz 20:13
moritz you're welcome
raschipi Hosting it in Russia doesn't help any, you'll still have clients all over Europe. 20:14
kurahaupo raschipi: it clearly says weblog in the /topic so permission has been granted 20:18
raschipi No, you need explicit, specific permission.
Just informing people in a general way isn't enough. 20:19
kurahaupo That applies to future collection
raschipi Right, so how is it supposed to work from now on? 20:20
kurahaupo I would make it part of the nickserv registration process 20:21
moritz I have no influence over the nickserv registration process 20:22
raschipi It's what Riot does.
moritz nor is everyone whose line is logged registered
raschipi moritz: what do you think about keeping the logs until the day the law came in effect up but to stop collecting? 20:23
moritz raschipi: nothin'. Afaict, the information duty applies to previously collected data as well
kurahaupo The entire purpose of FreeNode & IRC is to publish information. I'm going to have to read the exact wording of the rules 20:24
El_Che nickserv will not work 20:25
e.g. I am not registered
(and not planning to)
raschipi "No grandfathering for previously collected personal data": www.gdpreu.org/the-regulation/who-must-comply/. kurahaupo: it's not just from now on.
neither am I
20:28 idiosyncrat left
kurahaupo Conversely, personal or household activity is exempt. So you're welcome to keep the logs for yourself, you don't need to erase them. 20:32
20:33 lizmat left
uzl jaush: Not sure if directly related with your question but there's a note in the section for the * twigil (docs.perl6.org/language/variables#The_*_Twigil) 20:34
jaush: related to dynamic variables and the REPL in rakudo perl6 20:35
20:35 lizmat joined, AlexDaniel`` left, AlexDaniel`` joined
jaush thanks uzl 20:36
masak aww. no irclogs. 20:38
uzl jaush: you're welcome! 20:39
masak moritz: I understand completely. but they will be missed.
moritz masak: yes, I miss them too :(
masak dangit, I should've scraped the whole thing.
hankache but you're not using the logs to sell adds or track the users. So why are the logs not exempt? 20:40
20:43 MilkmanD1n is now known as MilkmanDan
raschipi You need explicit consent to just keeping personal info around. 20:43
lizmat I guess the next step will be that everybody on an IRC channel is registered *and* has given explicit consent for logging 20:44
raschipi riot.im and slack are already collecting explicit consent. 20:45
20:46 lucasb left
El_Che and they suck 20:46
hard
and a lemon
with salt on top
(incidently I like lemon with salt, but that's not my point :) ) 20:47
Juerd To be honest, I'm glad to see them gone, or at least the ones from before I realised everything I said was made public.
lizmat Juerd: but it was already public?
El_Che Juerd: The Best of Juerd is a classic
20:48 hankache left
Juerd I have requested information to be removed from the logs in the past, but I don't know what other mistakes I may have made that I'd now like to cover up. 20:48
20:53 itaipu left 20:55 itaipu joined 21:04 jaush left 21:13 skids left, uzl_ joined, uzl left 21:14 raschipi left 21:15 uzl__ joined 21:17 uzl_ left, pmurias left 21:18 wamba left
tyil Juerd: you didnt realise that things said in a public chanel are public? 21:21
lizmat tyil: if you discuss things in a bar, you don't expect people to record that and put it in a podcast to be downloaded whenever 21:23
Juerd tyil: I've always considered irc channels like pubs: you have to be there to actually hear what someone's saying, and if you're recording conversations that's creepy (this is why I don't log irc conversations). It's completely fine if it's recorded and published and it's clearly visible, but iirc that hasn't always been the case here. Besides that, it's still not incredibly visible because it's at the end of
the topic and many clients will truncate the topic line to what fits on screen except when joining the channel.
tyil that sounds like a client problem 21:24
Juerd Personally I find it rather strange that many text conversations, including private ones, are logged and stored forever by default.
tyil: Yes, it is.
tyil I also disagree with comparing it to a bar, but that's a different topic
to me they're just too different of a thing to make that comparison
Juerd Lack of alcohol? :) 21:25
tyil I can see some point in not expecting logs to be made publicly available, though
Juerd: thats certainly not an issue when I'm on irc ;)
kurahaupo There's lots of FUD about the GDPR. Consent is only one of the options for "legal processing". It could well be argued the logs of conversations are covered by section 50 - a purpose compatible with the original purpose. 21:29
21:30 itaipu left 21:31 pmurias joined
tyil kurahaupo: I think the lack of prior rulings in court contributes to a lot of FUD 21:31
there's no data yet on how judges actually interpret the law
21:31 rindolf left
El_Che prior ruling is not something relevant in all EU countries 21:31
e.g., not in mine
21:31 HaraldJoerg left
El_Che that something popular in the UK/US 21:31
21:31 epony left
tyil I think companies would still like to have some data on how its being used in practice 21:32
El_Che e.g. here the instance that can impose sanctions is the same that gives guidelines 21:33
and most importantly, the instance you can/must send questions when in doubt
tyil that's not what I'm talking about
El_Che (so, when in doubt, you're not in error if you ask their advice first) 21:34
tyil shrugs
whatevs
El_Che a juge can rule something different than an other jugde
meaning a earlier ruling does not bind later rulings
tyil that's not at all what I'm saying
El_Che (thanks Napoleon!)
tyil 23:32 <tyil> I think companies would still like to have some data on how its being used in practice
El_Che ok 21:35
something else
21:35 kurahaupo_ joined 21:37 andrzejku left, rindolf joined, kurahaupo left 21:38 kurahaupo_ left, kurahaupo joined 21:39 andrzejku joined 21:42 itaipu joined 22:02 itaipu left 22:03 uzl__ left 22:05 molaf left 22:07 markoong left 22:10 markoong joined 22:17 ilogger2 joined, ChanServ sets mode: +v ilogger2 22:25 matiaslina joined 22:40 andrzejku joined 22:42 kurahaupo_ joined 22:43 profan joined 22:45 kurahaupo_ left, kjpye joined, kurahaupo joined 22:50 damnlie joined
japhb moritz: For the record (irony sadly noted), I will really miss your irclogs. I used them several times a day, nearly every day. Thank you for providing them for all this time. 22:55
22:56 molaf joined 22:58 skids joined
MasterDuke moritz: likewise 23:11
colomon they were brilliant and essential. 23:14
lizmat and another Perl 6 Weekly hits the Net: p6weekly.wordpress.com/2018/06/04/...ed-closed/ 23:24
23:24 damnlie left 23:39 damnlie joined 23:42 matiaslina left
Juerd For those who love the logs, please note that it's pretty easy to set up logging in almost every irc client 23:43
lizmat: And another big thank-you! :) 23:44

Powered by Cro and the Raku® Programming Language.

Please report any issues / comments / feature requests as an issue on App::Raku::Log.

Thank you!