»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend! 🦋
Set by Zoffix on 25 July 2018.
timotimo here in line 456 it does ~~ m:global/<$selector_tree_key_pattern>/ 00:00
that goes via EVAL
the profiler dying or at least getting confused when confronted with lots of EVAL isn't new :( 00:02
MasterDuke and an explicit EVAL here github.com/jdv/p6-data-selector/bl...tree.t#L94 00:05
fake_space_whale ryn1x, Juerd, thanks for the advice I would look at packaging it up 00:13
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Geth doc: bddb87747a | Coke++ | doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6
pass finicky links test
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synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/5to6-nutshell
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Geth ecosystem: 3e945a603f | (Fernando Correa de Oliveira)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | META.list
Add Injector to the ecosystem

Adding github.com/FCO/Injector		 03:14
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avuserow m: sub f (FatRat() \y, FatRat() \z) {108 - ((815 - 1500 / z) / y)}; my @results = 4.0, 4.25; for 2 .. 200 -> $i {@results.push(f(@results[$i-1], @results[$i-2]));}; say @results[200]; 03:34
camelia 4.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999914634955237594519840605021696245253531402251293461657465278749240871156571863477542965001140165357
avuserow the above is from medium.com/@bellmar/is-cobol-holdi...98c0eb428b 03:35
Perl 6 works very well if you ask for FatRats, and pretty well if you just use regular rational numbers
benjikun can also be slow so you have to be careful 03:39
avuserow true. but accuracy comes first, and it's great to have the accuracy within such easy reach 03:41
m: sub f (Num() \y, Num() \z) {108 - ((815 - 1500 / z) / y)}; my @results = 4.0, 4.25; for 2 .. 20 -> $i {@results.push(f(@results[$i-1], @results[$i-2]));}; say @results[20]; # floating point version, note that it explodes at 20 versus 200 03:42
camelia 100.00001247862016
benjikun Indeed 03:43
Some would criticize p6 for using rationals by default
Easy to write it off as "it's slow by default, I'm done", though being an incorrect synopsis of the language itself 03:44
avuserow hmm. I had forgotten that, with my recent adventures using native types almost exclusively due to nativecall and handling binary file formats 03:45
benjikun I do think it is SOMEWHAT weird that perl6 uses rats by default, despite it being more accurate, but I've gotten used to it 03:46
Hopefully newcomers can too
jdv79 i get the evals in the test file - is there a better way to deep clone a hash like that? 03:56
i didn't know about the regex boiling down to an eval.
is there a better way to do that?
plus what's wrong with eval?
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geekosaur safety 04:04
although slowness also comes into it, we precomp for a reason but EVALs can't be precomp-ed because the thing to be compiled isn't known at compile time, only at runtime 04:05
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jdv79 its unfortunate a regex has to eval 04:15
the explicit eval i could get around easily but probably not the regex implied ones
geekosaur regex has to eval if you use <$foo> because it has to compile $foo in 04:19
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[Coke] cd sandbox/perl6 04:25
oops
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fake_space_whale Am I correct in thinking that one can not call .WHAT on a object of type Distribution::Resource (from the %?RESOURCES object)? 04:35
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fake_space_whale The reason I am thinking this is because when I add a line of code `say $filename.WHAT` I get the error "Cannot look up attributes in a Distribution::Resource type object" 04:38
geekosaur .WHAT is a compiler macro; resources are runtime 04:40
this might qualify as an LTA error
$filename.^name might work better
sjn o/ 04:42
sjn bumped into interesting the might be worth looking at for speeding up floating point -> string conversion: pldi18.sigplan.org/event/pldi-2018...conversion 04:44
maybe this belongs in #rakudo? 04:46
fake_space_whale geekosaur, thank you
do you know of any docs or hints or even code about what the Distribution::Resource is? 04:47
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geekosaur no, I think that whole area is a bit underspecced at the moment? 04:49
benjikun sjn: Moreso perl6-dev imo
You could also start a conversation about it on rakudo's github
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fake_space_whale okay, thanks anyway 04:52
Geth doc: coke self-unassigned Sort Table of Contents github.com/perl6/doc/issues/392
54200d05f0 | (Tom Browder)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | htmlify.p6
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jdv79 which makes regexes less useful for high perf settings:( 05:24
at least p5's are pretty fast:)
benjikun There are ways of avoiding regexes for now sometimes 05:28
They'll undoubtedly perform better in the future
fake_space_whale it appears, to my noob eyes, that the Distribution::Resource objects are IO::Path objects. 05:29
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Zoffix sjn: we're pretty much already using state of the art for Grisu3 algo for floating point stringification. I flipped through that talk and I see the guy reference Dragon4 algo, but neither Grisu no Errol, which makes me a bit dubious he really came up with something that's faster than Grisu3+Dragon4 fallback that still fullfills the same properties (Str->Num->Str roundtripping without drift and stringifying to 05:51
shortest strings). Right now we use sprintf as fallback for Grisu3, and it could be made faster by using Dragon4 instead, but that covers just 0.5% of cases Grisu3 can't handle, so there won't be any major improvents. There are some references and explanations in this commit: github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/commit/06...47211b874b
fake_space_whale: no, but it attempts to fake being one
m: say Distribution::Resource.^mro.map: *.^name
camelia (Distribution::Resource Any Mu)
Zoffix fake_space_whale: and the bug with .Str/.gist/.perl is something you could fix, perhaps? R#2143 05:55
synopsebot R#2143 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/2143 [easy to resolve][good first issue] Can't .gist/.Str/.perl Distribution::Resource:U
fake_space_whale oh, I am not making any promises but I will definitely consider doing that. 05:57
Zoffix sweet \o/
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Zoffix Talk Slides and Recording: "Intro Into Perl 6 Regexes and Grammars Perl 6": rakudo.party/post/Intro-Into-Perl6...-Recording 06:03
sjn Zoffix: he references Grisu3 several times, and compares it to his proposed algorithm 06:04
I'd say have another look :)
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Zoffix sjn: ah, cool 06:05
|6d f.p. stringification talk: pldi18.sigplan.org/event/pldi-2018...conversion
ZofBot Zoffix, Will remind you on 2018-08-04T02:05:39.259931-04:00 about f.p. stringification talk: pldi18.sigplan.org/event/pldi-2018...conversion
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buggable New CPAN upload: Text-Names-0.0.1.tar.gz by RIBNOTTER cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/R/RI/...0.1.tar.gz 06:21
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doc: 9ca6a1740b | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Language/variables.pod6
Changes to sentence case refs #2223 and eliminates non-current comment
 09:42
doc: 737c6eb645 | (JJ Merelo)++ | 2 files
Adds constant prefix to the Variables page

This closes #1566 although there was a pretty good section on the Terms page, for some reason. I have added just a simple example and linked the previous page, there's no need for duplicates.
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/variables
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timeless13 Interested in reasonably priced GLOBAL IRC ADVERTISING? Contact me on twitter twitter.com/nenolod or linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/nenolod 09:46
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lizmat not here also? :-( 09:46
benjikun :/ 09:49
stmuk looks like that twitter user is being attacked .. ironically it's drawn my attention to his anti-spam IRC bot :) 09:50
github.com/kaniini/antissh
"In 2018, there was a resurgence of IRC spam attacks that were undetected by traditional proxy scanning methods. This is because the attackers were using vulnerable SSH daemons running on routers, IPMI devices and other embedded devices to proxy the connections, using the direct-tcpip subsystem. 09:52
jmerelo stmuk: what's an IPMI device? 09:53
stmuk: ah, OK, intelligent platform management interface. Never heard of it before. www.itworld.com/article/2708437/se...rd-of.html 09:56
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Geth doc: 9b57216da4 | (Tom Browder)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | lib/Perl6/Documentable.pm6
add attribute for Language sections
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benjikun Yeah, there have been huge port scans for several devices like this for years upon years :/ 10:05
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stmuk SSH-2.0-dropbear_2013.62 10:21
Geth doc: f62168e44d | (Tom Browder)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | htmlify.p6
prepare for future menu autogen
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sarna o/ 10:32
stmuk "Format string vulnerability in Dropbear SSH before 2016.74 allows remote attackers to execute arbitrary code via format string specifiers in the (1) username or (2) host argument.
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stmuk I don't think antissh would help us with CVE-2016-7406 .. maybe just block based on sshd banner version? 10:33
or just block all matches to dropbear 10:34
benjikun There are tons of holes like this in tons of things
I doubt every spammer that has spammed #perl6 uses this vulnerability
stmuk I think there is probably just one spammer using one (or a small number) of vulnerabilities 10:35
Geth doc: 27dc7cfa7e | (Tom Browder)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | htmlify.p6
clean up comment
benjikun I've seen a few different messages 10:36
maybe 3-4
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stmuk but mostly attacking freenode ops (even on other IRC networks) 10:36
tbrowder_ sarna: \o
benjikun stmuk: Yeah, I'm not sure how to feel about that 10:37
stmuk I wish I had a record of the other ips to check banner versions.. I bet its all dropbear 10:38
benjikun stmuk: Look through logs 10:39
just grep for words you remember
tbrowder_ [Coke]: any objections to moving some of the htmlify.p6 subs to Htmlify.pm6? 10:40
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tbrowder_ jmerelo: ^^^? 10:40
stmuk benjikun: that gives me IRC nick only .. I can use /WHOWAS for a short period of time but failed to look up more
benjikun I see 10:43
jmerelo tbrowder_: not really 10:46
tbrowder_: the main problem is that since htmlify.p6 is not tested, we might now know what's broken until it shows. But moving stuff to a module will really help test it; you can't simply test a script except by running it 10:48
tbrowder_ ok, gotcha. 10:50
Geth doc: 0bd4fcc53e | (JJ Merelo)++ | 4 files
Moves to 2018.08 references to 2018.07

Since 2018.07 is not really going to happen twitter.com/zoffix/status/1023294048268967937		 10:53
jmerelo tbrowder_: it's a catch-22, really.
tbrowder_ yep
jmerelo tbrowder_: but I guess we'll have to start somewhere... so by all means do whatever you had in mind if everyone agrees with it. 10:56
tbrowder_ i just saw your comment on site generation speed. until sake buid stuff is ready, there are some makefile dependencies that maybe could be tweaked to help. for instance, i’m not sure the type graph and type doc info should have to rebuild every time, cache or no cache, if the source hasn’t changed. 11:01
jmerelo tbrowder_: sometimes it's rebuilt even if non-doc is changed.
I mean, every little time.
I proposed this some time ago github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1937 11:02
tbrowder_ some of those steps, if they could be extracted into separate progs, could be more easily be controlled by the makefile. 11:03
jmerelo tbrowder_: and then there's this thing github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1952
tbrowder_: in fact, [Coke] created that here github.com/perl6/doc/commit/e9a057...9d571fba26 but it's using text, not the Pod structure that pod::to::Bigpage uses 11:04
tbrowder_: that makes it really useful for stuff like testing text, but not really for generation 11:05
tbrowder_: if you're finally attending TPC in Glasgow, that could be something to be discussed in the Doc BoF 11:06
tbrowder_ unfortunately i won’t be able to go. i sure would like to attend some specific p6 hacking gathering, though. where do you think a good international gathering place would be? iceland? 11:09
estonia?
jmerelo tbrowder_: I love Iceland. 11:10
tbrowder_: never been to Estonia, though.
tbrowder_ any p6 people in iceland?
El_Che isn't iceland expensive as hell?
jmerelo tbrowder_: I know some Perl mongers. El_Che yep, that's right. 11:11
tbrowder_: Belgium during FOSDEM would be a nice alternative. But that's next february. I'll guess meanwhile we'll have to make do with IRC and issues.
stmuk belgium/holland is probably easier for many than iceland
tbrowder_ how about spain? 11:12
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jmerelo tbrowder_: wonderful place. I can organize it in Granada if there's enough interest. 11:22
tbrowder_: maybe something like perl 6 toolchain summit 11:23
Would everyone want to do something like this?
I got just the place: carmendelavictoria.ugr.es/ whose rooms are free if booked from the uni 11:24
also you can stay there if booked with enough time, it's usually booked solid with university visiting people
There are direct Delta flights from NY to Málaga, 1.5 hours away by bus 11:25
El_Che wow
jmerelo If there's enough interest, just let me know and I can start moving it, maybe for november or early December 11:26
(above I mean meeting rooms, not bedrooms) 11:27
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El_Che hehe 11:28
good clarification :)
jmerelo I have added discussion on that topic to the Perl 6 documentation BoF in Glasgow act.perlconference.org/tpc-2018-gla...tion%20BoF 11:34
stmuk: since we are both around here, can we talk a bit about this? github.com/perl6/ecosystem/issues/...-408670421 11:42
stmuk: quite clearly, you don't agree with me, as repeated thumbs-down show. But I'm trying to find common ground here. Can you please ellaborate a bit? 11:43
stmuk jmerelo: I don't think there is any common ground. I regard the ticket as a waste of time and probably any further discussion. 11:44
jmerelo: if I mark a module as DEPRECATED it means exactly that (see wikipedia definition) I wouldn't expect to be contacted by an open source volunteer asking me if I really mean I wanted it deleting 11:46
jmerelo stmuk: why do you think there's no common ground? 11:47
stmuk I've just explained that 11:48
jmerelo stmuk: you keep discussing about that particular aspect of what I propose, but that's not the main point. The main point is to have some clear procedure for removing stuff from ecosystem (not CPAN) 11:50
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stmuk there is no problem 11:50
jmerelo stmuk: for instance, see this for NPM docs.npmjs.com/cli/unpublish
It clearly specifies things like: if you've deleted something, you can't add it back.
stmuk: there's all kind of stuff that might happen. For instance, you might want to delete some "latest" version but leave some versioned thing. That's also specified there. 11:51
stmuk: plus we might want to eventually have everything in CPAN6.
stmuk I don't see the perl community about written procedures and rules in the sense you do 11:52
jmerelo stmuk: there are two options. Enforce it in code (see CPAN) or if you don't, enforce it as a rule. I'm all for enforcing it in code. 11:53
stmuk I don't want to see the github based ecosystem replaced by CPAN6
anyway I can't see this discussion going anywhere
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jmerelo stmuk: well, it should go towards trying and find common ground. If we can't we could maybe do a poll in the issue itself. 11:54
stmuk: but if we can't even agree on that, I can close the issue, no problem. I don't want anyone unhappy and/or wasting time. 11:55
Of course, as the proverbial grumpy old man, I reserve the right to say "I told you so" if this causes problems down the line, but really, I don't want to waste anyone's time. 11:56
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El_Che jmerelo: lol, non registered users can not send you a message. 12:12
you got too much spam?
jmerelo El_Che: not really. use email 12:14
El_Che let me look for a client :)
less hot now in Granada?
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tbrowder_ jmerelo: ref probs building doc website and publishing. would sme kind of mutual lock work? i’m fuzzy on details but with all the asynchronicty (?) between to 12:27
the two processes something needs to intervene and be a traffic cop. 12:28
ref ecosystem and cpan: Zoffix and AlexDaniel and lizmat and others i thnk would vote for dumping ecosystem. 12:30
tyil I personally prefer cpan for hosting modules, but some people prefer the simplicity of the ecosystem repo on github iirc 12:35
the docs did mention the ecosystem repo to be deprecated "soon", but that was removed as nobody seemed to actually know about any real plans to deprecate it 12:37
jmerelo El_Che: it's OK. 12:38
tbrowder_ tyil: i have temporarily stopped working on =defn, but still on my plate 12:39
tyil tbrowder_: ok, thanks for the headsup :>
tbrowder_ first attempts haven’t worked, got to dig deeper in grammar
tyil I've since been working on a module to ease creating new Pod formatters with as well
jmerelo tyil, tbrowder_ the ecosystem is OK as long as there are 1 PRs every other week. If it becomes really popular, we're in trouble.
tyil which I hope to use to make a Pod::To::Man module soom(tm) 12:40
and I have some lispy thing to finish and write an article about ;~;
AlexDaniel tbrowder_: you mean leave cpan but get rid of github thingie?
tyil jmerelo: I know, I am personally in favour in CPAN because it scales better
I also dont like depending on a proprietary platform like github
jmerelo Just closed the issue. 12:41
Never mind.
tyil I think we can keep the ecosystem repo for now, but teach new contributors to use CPAN as the default 12:43
El_Che tyil: I don't think it's clear at all 12:44
therefor jmerelo's discusion was relevant
do we want to push people to cpan?
do we want to base the ecosystem on a Microsoft company?
tyil what was clear? 12:45
jmerelo El_Che: you can use also gitlab adn bitbucket
El_Che how an econsystem should look like
jmerelo El_Che: I really think so, but it seems to be impossible to find some common ground, so I guess it's better to close it now. 12:46
stmuk you could host ecosystem/META.list somewhere other than github
El_Che there is the go moduel of pushing stuff to github or gitlab and that's it
tyil I didn't go into clarifying what it should look like
I just think a git repo doesn't scale well into the future
El_Che there is the centralised cpan or JS model
tyil and I dont want to depend on a proprietary platform such as github
El_Che there the catastrophy of a ecosystem called java
tyil which are my two main reasons for going CPAN
stmuk and people could use whatever git repos they like inside META.list
El_Che tyil: yes, I am arguing that is something that needs to be reflected upon 12:47
cpan has also downsides
the interface is *very* oldschool
tyil surely, if only because its harder to get started with for new people
El_Che administration is needed, etc
tyil which is something we shouldn't ant
want*
stmuk the main win of CPAN is the mirroring
tyil but CPAN is stable, and proven
El_Che distributed, indeed
tyil and with modules, easy to work with
jmerelo El_Che: I think so, but that does not seem to be the consensus. So let's just leave it at that and move on to some other thing.
El_Che for perl5 the testing framework somewhat related to cpan 12:48
tyil I'd like to see a friendlier UI to PAUSE for module creators, but I don't think it's worth the resources at this point in time to make it 12:50
but since I use assixt for uploading them, I don't really have to work with the interface anyway 12:51
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andrzejku araraloren_: hey :) 13:09
araraloren_ andrzejku 13:10
hey
andrzejku araraloren_: I saw you was working hard
araraloren_ :) haha 13:11
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AlexDaniel “ecosystem police” xD 13:24
what's next, ecosystem moral police? :) 13:25
tbrowder_: well, there is at least one p6 person in Estonia :) Not sure if it's a good place for an international gathering though 13:34
tbrowder_: although I'm all for it, but yeah, I'm biased :)
stmuk imagines the ecosystem police attempting to herd cats 13:37
MasterDuke are many people planning to be at the london perl workshop? 13:39
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stmuk "we have to revoke your perl 6 licence because your META6.json isn't compliant with the changes made last week and you had trailing whitespace" 13:41
tyil stmuk: I've already mentioned we should have a meta-version key in META6.json to deal with such breaking changes ;) 13:42
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stmuk AlexDaniel: don't you have internet millions of times faster than everyone else though? 14:05
AlexDaniel stmuk: IIRC it's even faster in Japan 14:06
stmuk: but I don't have a good connection
AlexDaniel looks at www.fastmetrics.com/internet-conne...ountry.php 14:08
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xiaomiao such things are not very useful - Japan has stupidly fast local connections but is badly connected to the rest of the world, for example 14:10
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xiaomiao a 10mbit connection in germany might be more pleasant to use than a gbit connection in japan 14:10
Geth ecosystem: kalkin++ created pull request #405:
Fix "Add update for Ddt to v0.5.3"		 14:11
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jmerelo squashable6: status 15:06
squashable6 jmerelo, ⚠🍕 Next SQUASHathon in 4 days and ≈18 hours (2018-08-04 UTC-12⌁UTC+14). See github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Mont...Squash-Day
tbrowder_ tyil: actually i have solved first part of =defn which uses text on same line as term and following para as def 15:07
second use in speculations is first line of para is term, following lines are def 15:08
BUT neither is specced as far as i can tell. 15:09
imo, term on =def line makes the most sense, and forget other way 15:10
thoughts? 15:11
jmerelo tbrowder_: you get to spec it, I guess. term on =defn line makes sense to me too. 15:15
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lucs jmerelo: Do you happen to see private /msg that are addressed to you? 15:22
jmerelo just seen one 15:23
lucs :)
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kalkin- Can some one please merge this github.com/perl6/ecosystem/pull/405 ? 15:26
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jmerelo kalkin-: not me, sorry. You can ask for specific reviewers if you want when you do the PR. 15:30
lucs The documentation sometimes uses the terms "longname" and "shortname" to designate those concepts (function name with parameters added or not). 15:31
Is such usage a good idea, or should plain "long name" be sufficient? 15:32
jmerelo lucs: where does it do that?
lucs: do you mean using long name as opposed to longname? 15:33
lucs I've seen it in S12 I think, so I'm wondering if it should be used in the regular docs.
jmerelo: Yes, that's what I mean.
jmerelo lucs: it's probably better if you use long name. 15:34
lucs: git grep on the docs returns longname only in code 15:35
lucs I kind of agree, but "longname" does imply that there is a technical meaning to it, which "long name" does not make obvious.
jmerelo lucs: and there's a single reference to long name, and it uses a split term. 15:36
lucs: hum.
lucs: I kinda fail to see the relationship between those words "long name", and what they design.
lucs See what I mean :) 15:37
jmerelo lucs: so another option is just go for "double semicolon"
lucs Oh, that's something else entirely.
jmerelo lucs: ok, let me check.
lucs This is what I'm talking about (let me find it...): 15:38
jmerelo lucs: also, the example is wrong, right?
lucs design.perl6.org/S12.html#Multisub...ltimethods , right under that blue box. 15:39
The example, like Zoffix said, is LTA. 15:40
jmerelo lucs: I still think long name is the way to go. It's used that way in S12, so...
lucs You'll also see 'longname' in S12... :/ 15:41
jmerelo lucs: 2 vs 18
lucs Not sure what you mean... 15:42
Geth ecosystem: 21496997af | (Bahtiar `kalkin-` Gadimov)++ | META.list
Fix "Add update for Ddt to v0.5.3"

This fixes the commit 518af6f212e900bfcdb794282695b8a973051d32.
  - included back all the previous versions of Ddt.
  - latest Ddt version uses also a tagged version.
ecosystem: f9402863df | (Steve Mynott)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | META.list
Merge pull request #405 from kalkin/master

Fix "Add update for Ddt to v0.5.3"
lucs Oh, number of occurences.
jmerelo lucs: control-F and search. "long name" appears 18 times, "longname" only 2. 15:43
lucs Yep.
15:43 molaf joined
stmuk does ugexe still use IRC much? He seems to be on freenode but not on channels? 15:43
lucs So, not worth introducing 'longname' "officially" -- sticking to "long name". 15:44
jmerelo lucs: I mean, it's your call. You want to introduce it, let's stick to that then.
kalkin- stmuk: thanks 15:45
lucs "long name" feels lighter -- I'll just make sure it gets into the glossary too :) 15:46
15:46 vrurg joined 15:47 andrzejku left
lucs & # Moyse Sonorité time! 15:47
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kalkin- How can I find all the classes implementing a specific role? 16:19
jmerelo kalkin-: in the ecosystem, in a program, in a module? 16:29
kalkin-: also, why would you want to do that? 16:31
kalkin- in all installed modules 16:32
jmerelo kalkin-: in all the modules that you have installed locally? Again, why would you want to do that?
kalkin- jmerelo: reasons
jmerelo kalkin-: let's break down the problem then. First, you need to know all modules that are installed, right? 16:33
kalkin- right
then i need to iterate over each module and lookup for each class and check if it implements a role? 16:34
koto sounds so.
jmerelo kalkin-: zef --installed list
kalkin-: then you need to access the module itself, with all the stuff it provides. Again, zef. 16:35
kalkin-: let me check
kalkin-: that would be zef locate 16:36
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jmerelo kalkin-: but you could also just "use" it and access its stuff using the meta-object protocol 16:36
kalkin- I can't just use classes which are not known at program creation time 16:37
jmerelo kalkin-: you do one program to generate a list of "uses", and then add stuff to that program 16:38
kalkin- basically i wanted to do plugins. The current straight forward solution would be to use Pluggable, but this forces all plugins to have the same namespace
jmerelo kalkin-: those are the reasons?
kalkin- hmm, but maay be it's not that a bad of idea if they use same namespace
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jmerelo anyway. 16:38
m: say Rat.^roles
kalkin- jmerelo: Yeah partly, partly curiosity
camelia ((Rational[Int,Int]) (Real) (Numeric))
jmerelo ^roles will give you all the roles a particular class implements. 16:39
kalkin- yeah MOP is definitely the way to go
I just thought may be there is a shortcut, without iteration over all modules and over all classes in modules.
koto you can EVAL `use $foo`, then in this scope do `MY::.keys`, iterate over needed stuff, do not forget to do it recursively going deeper with `.WHO.keys`. You check if it's `thing.HOW.WHAT ~~ Metamodel::ClassHOW` and do what you want, e.g. check roles. 16:40
jmerelo so if zef --installed list returns Foo Bar Baz you do "use Foo; use Bar; use Baz;" and then for <Foo Bar Baz> -> $class { say ::$class.^roles }
Although what koto says seems reasonable too :-= 16:41
buggable New CPAN upload: Perl6-Ecosystem-0.0.2.tar.gz by JMERELO modules.perl6.org/dist/Perl6::Ecosy...an:JMERELO
kalkin- yes thank you koto & jmerelo. I probably just use Pluggable
koto I am not an expert though, but I think there is no shortcut for this. I mean, in this case it'd be motion to children from parents, and type system is not really a graph DB or something like that.
16:41 sarna joined
jmerelo koto: the MOP _is_ the shortcut... 16:42
sarna hey, why do my methods return Mu instead of Nil if I don't return anything?
koto kalkin-, I bet you want to use Pluggable instead of black magic I've described above. : )
jmerelo sarna: maybe it's returning a class and it's inialized to that by default? Mu is the nil for classes. 16:43
koto jmerelo, kind of. I meant, there is no call like `^children` or something like that. Also, `say ::$class.^roles` approach will omit basically everything inside of package, so recursion is necessary. 16:44
sarna jmerelo: makes sense. how can I avoid type errors then?
jmerelo sarna: you can try exceptions, but it's difficult to say without looking at the code.
sarna because if I returned Nil it wouldn't complain, now it throws a type error because Mu isn't MyClass
jmerelo sarna: why don't you show us a bit of code? Difficult to say without the rest of the context 16:46
sarna jmerelo: well alright, hold on a second
jmerelo Here's the "river" score for all perl6 modules, including whether they fail or not. The "score" includes how far down they are in the chain of dependencies. High score and true in the fail column makes them a candidate for bitrot squashaton 16:48
jmerelo clickbaits github.com/JJ/p6-river/blob/master...scores.csv
sarna jmerelo: gist.github.com/sarna/70eeeead6f3f...061a12f470 16:49
jmerelo: winner is the problematic method
jmerelo sarna: (also, if you've got the time and the will, please golf it and post in StackOverflow. I'll check this now anyway)
sarna: winner is returning a Coin, and if Coin is nill, it's initialized to Mu, is that correct? 16:50
sarna jmerelo: alright, I'll try :) (I've tried 5 minutes ago but failed)
jmerelo: yes
lizmat will be afk for most of the evening&
jmerelo sarna: check-rows and columns do not have a default value for what they return. It can happen both alternatives are false 16:51
sarna: also, returning from inside a loop, well...
sarna jmerelo: what's wrong with returning from inside a loop" 16:52
?
jmerelo: and I thought Nil || Nil would return Nil, but
jmerelo sarna: it's better to end the loop and then return. And you're not guaranteed check-rows and check-columns are returning Nil. If they don't return, they will return the last value in the sub 16:53
sarna jmerelo: what do you mean by "end the loop and then return"? I don't need to continue if I found a match 16:55
jmerelo: oh, so adding Nil at the end should fix it. I thought it was there implicitly
jmerelo m: sub foo() returns Any { loop( my $i =0; $i < 3; $i++ ) { say "Hello" }}; say foo;
camelia 5===SORRY!5===
Word 'loop' interpreted as 'loop()' function call; please use whitespace around the parens
at <tmp>:1
------> 3sub foo() returns Any { loop7⏏5( my $i =0; $i < 3; $i++ ) { say "Hello"
Unexpected block in infix position …
jmerelo sarna: never mind the loop and the returning. 16:56
sarna: not sure what is there implicitly. But returning Nil might give you what you want.
sarna jmerelo: yeah, no side effects which won't be run in my loop :)
jmerelo: thanks for taking your time! 16:57
jmerelo sarna: good luck :-)
sarna m: class Foo {}; sub bar(--> Foo) {if False {return Foo}}; bar() 17:04
camelia Type check failed for return value; expected Foo but got Slip (Empty)
in sub bar at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
sarna jmerelo: the shortest I could get :)
without `if False` it just returns Nil 17:06
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jmerelo sarna: it's returning whatever "if" is returning. 17:12
m: my $what's-this = if False { say "Hello" }; say $what's-this 17:13
camelia 5===SORRY!5===
Word 'if' interpreted as a listop; please use 'do if' to introduce the statement control word
at <tmp>:1
------> 3my $what's-this = if7⏏5 False { say "Hello" }; say $what's-this
Unexpected block in infix position (two …
jmerelo m: my $what's-this = do if False { say "Hello" }; say $what's-this 17:14
camelia ()
jmerelo m: my $what's-this = (if False { say "Hello" }); say $what's-this
camelia ()
jmerelo m: my $what's-this = say "Hello" if false; say $what's-this
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Undeclared routine:
false used at line 1
jmerelo m: my $what's-this = say "Hello" if False; say $what's-this
camelia (Any)
sarna jmerelo: oh! makes sense :)
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damaxi Hey 17:49
sarna m: say <1 2 3> + <4 5 6> 17:51
camelia 6
sarna why doesn't it throw a type error :D
tobs sarna: because it can coerce 17:52
m: <1 2 3>.Int.say
camelia 3
sarna tobs: ohh, I understand now 17:53
thanks
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jmerelo Hey, DrForr . How are you doing? 18:00
DrForr Reasonably well given the circumstances, right now waiting for a friend to come online so I can ask a few questions. Noticed this box had been bounced so I thought I'd reset things. 18:01
El_Che hi drforr
DrForr Howdy. 18:02
Other than that chilling with the dogs who are *completely* asleep on the job as they haven't noticed this dee..spoke too soon, there they go.
jmerelo DrForr: good luck with everything...
DrForr Well, it *might* work out better than I'd initially thought, because of an offer I got on Friday. 18:03
El_Che the twitter one?
sarna hey, can I make a thing that's not known at compile-time immutable? like, assign once? 18:05
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DrForr No, something else. I need to learn about some logistics from a friend, but if I can get insurance straightened out I might just go with the deal I've been offered for 3-6 months. 18:05
jmerelo sarna: constants are decided at compile time... You can still bind, which is like declaring a literal, which is constant-ish
m: my $constant-ish := 33; $constant-ish = 34; 18:06
camelia Cannot assign to an immutable value
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
sarna m: my $x = 3; my $constant-ish := $x; $x = 4; say $constant-ish 18:07
camelia 4
jmerelo m: my $þ = 7; my $constant-ish := 33+ $þ; say $constant-ish
camelia 40
jmerelo m: my $þ = 7; constant $constant = 33+ $þ
camelia Use of uninitialized value of type Any in numeric context
in block at <tmp> line 1
Geth doc: f94b0a38e8 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Programs/03-environment-variables.pod6
Rename RAKUDO_EXCEPTIONS_HANDLER

Procspec: github.com/perl6/roast/commit/7d2432590e Rakudo fix: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5e1df41b34
[Coke] tbrowder_: in general, no objections. practically, it's going to make it harder for me to keep coke/build going due to merge stuff, but that's on me, not you
jmerelo sarna: in that case, you're binding the container, not the value. 18:08
[Coke] (extract to separate programs in build) that's the opposite of what I'm trying to do.
jmerelo m: my $x = 3; my $constant-ish := $x; say $constant-ish; $x = 4; say $constant-ish
camelia 3
4
DrForr stitches together a Spreadsheet API.
[Coke] (I'm trying to move things *into* perl6, but keep them better segregated). 18:09
But given my lack of time to commit to the work, I'm not going to fight.
jmerelo [Coke]: you mean the Makefile and the web app, right?
tbrowder_ [Coke]: I may be going down a rabbit hole anyway. Can we see your version? 18:10
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[Coke] tbrowder_: f62168e44d2d441a8851b2340ca2fc6512fa6cf5 - you added a comment that's basically the same as the comment that's there. (and are failing the whitespace tests now) 18:13
sarna jmerelo: ah yeah, I remember now. thanks
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El_Che (shell server upgrades it seemsà 18:15
)
tyil tbrowder_: I think "=defn <term>", with the following Para as its definition is the most sane to read/write 18:16
sarna is there a shortcut for this? foo(x => $x) (x is a named argument)
tyil sarna: foo(:$x)
El_Che :$x
sarna thanks!!
it's not in the docs :( 18:17
jmerelo sarna: foo( :$x )
tbrowder_ tyil: thanks, i agree. i’m thinking of asking Damian’s opinion since he wrote most of S26 i believe. 18:18
sarna jmerelo: yep, just complaining about the docs now :)
18:18 lizmat left
jmerelo sarna: don't just complain, create an issue :-) (Although I'm pretty sure that is in the docs) 18:18
tyil might be an issue of being too hard to find, which we can still look into
tbrowder_ [Coke]: i’m sorry about ws but i didn’t see any evidence of it, but i think web edit is conducive to that 18:19
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masak TimToady: is COMPILING always reaching into a static lexpad? if yes, could there be something like COMPILING which reaches into a runtime lexpad? 18:19
sarna jmerelo: well, it's not here docs.perl6.org/type/Signature#inde...d_argument
Zoffix sarna: most of those shortcuts: rakudo.party/post/Perl-6-Colonpairoscopy
yoleaux 14:10Z <samcv> Zoffix: well that would seem to make sense
jmerelo sarna: it is: $ = :(:$a); 18:20
sarna Zoffix: thank you :)
jmerelo: oh. it's a bit cryptic though, I don't know if you agree
Zoffix sarna: and `else`-less `if`/`with`/`without` return Empty when condition is false, to support constructs like (1, 2, 3, (42 if $whatever), 45, 6)
jmerelo sarna: yep, it kinda is.
sarna: so, issue that :-) 18:21
sarna jmerelo: ok :)
Zoffix: makes sense now! 18:22
18:22 Zoffix left
Geth doc: 5d247af6c8 | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Type/Signature.pod6
Just fixing some typographic error
 18:23
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/type/Signature
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sarna m: sub foo($x) {x++}; foo(2) 18:31
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Undeclared routine:
x used at line 1
sarna m: sub foo($x) {$x++}; foo(2) 18:32
camelia Cannot resolve caller postfix:<++>(Int); the following candidates
match the type but require mutable arguments:
(Mu:D $a is rw)
(Int:D $a is rw)

The following do not match for other reasons:
(Bool:D $a is rw)
(Bool:U $a …
sarna why doesn't it copy the parameter by default?
timotimo i think here explicit is better than implicit 18:33
i.e. you can immediately see if the value of your parameter is going to change in the function or not
geekosaur I think because most people don't intend to mutate parameters and this allows ffaster code
and yes, seeing it explicitly is good IMO
sarna can I somehow guarantee that this function won't mutate the parameter?
Geth doc: 342466f69e | (Zoffix Znet)++ | assets/sass/style.scss
Don't show BG camelia on 404s

Fixes github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2228
sarna besides is copy?
timotimo how do you mean? 18:35
oh, also, this is only surface-level, not "deep"
sarna like `foo(const int a)` in C
timotimo that's close enough to the default you have in perl6 18:36
sarna oh, I'm sorry, it's quite late. I got it now :D 18:37
thanks for explaining
timotimo NP
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kalkin- For some reason my $name = 'Foo'; try require ::($name) returns a (Foo), but Foo::.keys is empty 18:45
if I do try require Foo, then Foo::.keys is filled up
I also tried ::($name)::.keys
DrForr Huh. Not every afternoon that your hacking is interrupted by a black bear walking through your property. 18:51
timotimo kalkin-: i cannot explain why it works differently, but try ::($name).WHO.keys 18:52
kalkin- timotimo: thanks! that does the trick 18:53
tbrowder_ tyil: instead of waiting till i could implement both types of =defn, i could just do the first type soon and wait to do the second type later. thoughts?do you see any reason i coul 19:01
disregard text after question mark 19:02
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xinming I got a perl6 program segfault. 19:20
I'll try to narrow down.
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DrForr I got a lot of those when I was first starting out. 19:29
Juerd Back then they were much more common :) 19:34
DrForr Doubtless. 19:36
xinming finally, narrowed down 19:37
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timotimo .tell jjmerelo can you explain what makes your data different from finanalyst's ModuleCitation thing? finanalyst.github.io/ModuleCitation/ 19:52
yoleaux timotimo: I'll pass your message to jjmerelo.
19:52 kybr left
kalkin- as far as I am reading the docs correctly I can't import symbols at runtime 19:54
xinming singularity.esky.cloud:2080/pub/p6-segfault.tgz <---- This is the segfault bundle where I can narrow down with my best effort. :-)
raschipi kalkin-: Why not?
timotimo right, because the compiler has to know what is available and what isn't
kalkin- So require Foo; is not the same as: my $name = 'Foo'; require ::($name);
xinming anyone here can try this
to confirm what I tried.
timotimo even with require Foo; it won't import the symbols, IIUC only the package itself gets made available 19:55
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timotimo you can, however, pass a list fo symbols that you want to have available 19:55
kalkin- Currently my plugin system consists of multiple module which export MAIN subs. I find out which modules I need to load via Plugabble at run time
timotimo: about require Foo; I see you have to be explicit: require Foo <&something> 19:56
timotimo: but the list you are mentioning, need to be available at compile time, right? 19:57
xinming I think it's because of multi with is export
timotimo yes
kalkin- so there is NO METHOD for importing it at runtime? 19:58
timotimo yes, it's simply not possible without time travel
kalkin- k 19:59
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kalkin- K, at least I get the modules loaded. Now I could iterate over them collect all the exported MAIN functions, and then forward @*ARGS some how to the right one 20:00
does this make sense?
timotimo doesn't immediately sound wrong
kalkin- given I have a list of MAIN Subs and an array of arguments, how can I do the same as perl6 does when it resolves a multi? 20:02
timotimo hm, that's more difficult
since every one of them already has their own proto sub
i wonder if you can use the MOP to get this
kalkin- currently this gives me all the multi subs in a unit → say ::($name).WHO<EXPORT>.WHO<DEFAULT>.WHO.values[0].candidates[0] 20:03
m: use JSON::Fast
camelia ===SORRY!===
Could not find JSON::Fast at line 1 in:
/home/camelia/.perl6
/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/site
/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/vendor
/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6
CompUni…
20:04 mcmillhj left
kalkin- timotimo: what exactly need I get? 20:04
timotimo i haven't worked with this part of the mop a lot 20:05
kalkin- I assummed I there will be some function EXECUTE(@subs, |args) which does the magic
timotimo not like that, no 20:06
i'd think you'd build "your own" multi sub and just shove all the candidates into it
Geth doc: eb0c969e57 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 2 files
[6.d] Document $*ARGFILES being fed by $*IN inside MAIN

Even when @*ARGS has stuff up in it. Rakudo impl: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/84d45f07fb Propspec: github.com/perl6/roast/commit/88499ac366
xinming seems no one interested in rakudo segfault issue. I'll trouble the channel later. :-) 20:07
timotimo sorry, xinming
my brain is dramatically slowed down by the heat
El_Che xinming: raise an issue so there is a trace (for people not in the channel atm) 20:08
raschipi .cando -> Returns a list of candidates that can be called with the given Capture
MasterDuke xinming: i can repro it
timotimo yeah, me too 20:09
it explodes while compiling a regex or something?
MasterDuke xinming: btw, `\o where { o ~~ Int }` could just be `Int \o`
still happens with the jit disabled
and with spesh disabled 20:10
xinming: are you creating an issue?
xinming Not yet 20:11
MasterDuke huh, no segv under valgrind
xinming what does valgrind mean?
MasterDuke it's a debugging tool 20:12
timotimo it's a pretty cool tool that can figure out a lot of different kinds of memory usage errors
like using memory that has recently been freed
20:12 mcmillhj joined
timotimo or running out of bounds on a buffer or array or something 20:12
xinming Ok, got it, thanks
timotimo MasterDuke: it looks like perhaps GC_DEBUG will tell us something 20:13
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MasterDuke hm, doesn't seem to have shown anything new yet 20:15
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MasterDuke oh, i need to create a log file... 20:17
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Zoffix It bisects to github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/72...18074bffd8 20:18
Geth: ver github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/72...18074bffd8
Geth Zoffix, version bump brought in these changes: github.com/perl6/nqp/compare/2017....9-g60f79d3
Zoffix Geth: ver github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/60f79d...4a6d5e8aa5 20:19
Geth Zoffix, version bump brought in these changes: github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/compare/2...5-gd4e230a
xinming issue submitted. 20:20
uzl I just watched your 'Wow, Perl 6' presentation, Zoffix. Good stuff!
xinming github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/2147 20:21
20:22 HaraldJoerg left
Zoffix Thanks. 20:23
uzl You mentions the use of ++$ as a counter. I know it's somewhat simple but is there any documentation on it?
20:23 HaraldJoerg joined 20:24 raschipi left
Zoffix uzl: docs.perl6.org/language/variables#...ariable%29 20:24
Geth doc: 1b9e1e5877 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/variables.pod6
Improve example with explicit `state`

Using state in `where` clause is UB and should not be shown in the docs.		 20:27
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/variables
uzl "In general, it is better style and p6ier to declare a named state variable in case you have to refer to it several times."
20:28 Kaiepi left
uzl what does "p6ier" mean in this context? 20:28
timotimo i guess "idiomatic perl6"?
20:28 mcmillhj joined
Zoffix Also.. says who? 20:29
ah, it's about using $ multiple times. OK
Geth doc: 4ca4b13a54 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/variables.pod6
Remove confusing adjective

  colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log...07-29#l812		 20:30
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/variables
20:30 Zoffix left 20:31 Kaiepi joined 20:33 mcmillhj left 20:35 buggable joined, ChanServ sets mode: +v buggable
Geth doc: 7adf41fe82 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/glossary.pod6
Add "UB" to glossary
 20:37
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/glossary
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SmokeMachine Isn’t modules.perl6.org/ getting the new modules? 21:34
timotimo check the far bottom 21:35
This page was generated from the files in the modules.perl6.org repository on Sun Jul 29 20:39:36 2018. view build log
SmokeMachine timotimo: thanks 21:38
Something wrong on my META6.json 21:40
21:42 sarna left 21:47 mcmillhj joined 21:52 mcmillhj left 21:53 ofperfection_ joined
SmokeMachine This line is breaking the indexation of my module (Injector), but my .travis.yml isn’t using panda... 21:55
github.com/FCO/Injector/blob/master/.travis.yml 21:56
21:56 stee joined
SmokeMachine fatal error while building raw.githubusercontent.com/FCO/Inje...ETA6.json: Use of uninitialized value in pattern match (m//) at lib/ModulesPerl6/DbBuilder/Dist/PostProcessor/p30METAChecker.pm line 123. 21:58
Looks something wrong on the regex... 22:00
Or the .travis.yml’s content couldn’t be loaded 22:05
22:07 Zoffix joined
Zoffix This is just ridiculous. 22:07
The PR had a comment, saying the code was broken.
The user who merged the PR was told the code was broken.
And yet still no one did anything and now the site is broken.
22:09 ofperfection_ left
El_Che why was it merged then? 22:16
did it fail travis?
22:16 _uzl joined 22:17 uzl left 22:18 pmurias left 22:21 dct left
Zoffix "why merge a PR that's being claimed to be broken?" "I don't think it is." 22:21
And then they fucked off.
SmokeMachine Should it be reverted 22:30
Zoffix I'm trying to fix it right now, but Types::Standard seems to be glitching and doesn't respect Maybe[] constraints on 5.28 22:31
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Geth modules.perl6.org: 866b0af6c9 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | lib/ModulesPerl6/DbBuilder/Dist/PostProcessor/p05DataFetcher.pm
Fetch travis file contents
 22:41
modules.perl6.org: 9e1db1d97e | (Zoffix Znet)++ | use-me-for-commit-triggers
[NEWDB] rebuilt stuff
Zoffix "Types::Standard seems to be glitching" was actually changes in newer Mew: github.com/zoffixznet/Mew/pull/4 22:42
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Geth modules.perl6.org: fd967f934e | (Zoffix Znet)++ | lib/ModulesPerl6/DbBuilder/Dist/PostProcessor/p30METAChecker.pm
Harden meta checker against failed content fetches
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modules.perl6.org: 4c03426399 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | lib/ModulesPerl6/DbBuilder/Dist/PostProcessor/p05DataFetcher.pm
Fix copy-pasta in error message
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Geth modules.perl6.org: c22c885f33 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 11 files
Fix @INC for newer perls
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vrurg Are there a way to get a custom DESTROY submethod (installed with .^add_method) called? 23:37
Wrapping an existing DESTROY works, but installing a new one – doesn't. 23:38
timotimo it's important to call .^compose for such changes, but it may still not be enough 23:48
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vrurg timotimo: Thanks, but doesn't work for me either. I'm trying to create an attribute trait and all the work happens in Attribute's compose. Calling class .^compose causes a error. 23:53
timotimo ah, ok, i thought you were monkey-patching an existing class
maybe try mixing in a role that has the DESTROY submethod 23:55
i wonder if ^add_submethod is a thing that exists
vrurg Worse. Trying to re-implement Moo/Moose lazy attributes in a smarter way than the two existing modules.
add_submethod is not necessary because add_method determines what type of routine it is given. 23:56
so, .^add_method( method ) and .^add_method( submethod {} ) are different things.
Mixin doesn't work either, BTW. Only if the class has its own DESTROY. 23:57
timotimo ah 23:59
well, it can have only one

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