12:52 lizmat left, lizmat joined, ChanServ sets mode: +v lizmat
Geth Raku-Steering-Council/main: 194563ac65 | (Salve J. Nilsen)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | minutes/nis2-cra-intro.pdf
Add slides for NIS2/CRA intro presentation

  - PDF slides for Salve's presentation on NIS2/CRA and community ramifications.
  - Feel free to reach out to Salve with questions.		 13:09
Raku-Steering-Council/main: 33a56b3161 | (Salve J. Nilsen)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | minutes/20230401.md
Add link to Salve's NIS2/CRA presentation PDF
 13:10
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Nemokosch Hi, originally I just wanted to maybe ask about the history of the Raku conference, since there were "concerns about the numbers" or something along the lines - but then drama happened, yet again we shall say. The discord bridges vanished, it's easy to see the correlation. 21:40
The situation has gotten unmaintainable. The discord bot cannot be shut down on random occasions over something that is the concern of a handful of people. 21:47
On one hand, I don't think it's fair or sound with any sort of written or unwritten community rules to impose punishment (let alone punishment to a group of people, completely agnostic about the case, without announcement) over something that can be summarized as "not enjoying certain messages for incidental personal reasons" 21:51
On the other hand, my message is directed at basically the same people who had the influence over the events so far 21:54
japhb Nemokosch: I understand that you (in your words) do not understand why this is such a big deal to so many of us, and why the tone of interactions can be more important than the content. But you don't have to understand it to know that it *does* matter to us. And you don't have to understand it to realize that if people are responding so strongly to you, that you are making things worse. 22:03
Nemokosch so at this point, regardless who is right and who is wrong, the situation won't just improve. There was that meeting where I was involved, and I still don't know the actual expectation regarding that meeting. It seemed like it was meant to somehow reflect the history of conflicts but it didn't seem to have either a discourse or an actionable resolution on either side 22:04
japhb The RSC gave you an opportunity to speak, and listened to your opinions. 22:06
Nemokosch Indeed you did 22:07
(I don't even mean to imply that there wasn't a genuine good intention and hope to resolving community matters including my controversial role - I just honestly don't know what the concrete idea or hope was) 22:10
I do like the language as a sort of tool and as an interesting project, and although I'm personally not here to make friends or even judge people along this dimension, it seemed to me that there were always people (not all but some, a lot if I may) who welcomed my participation 22:15
japhb To understand better where you are coming from, and to ensure you could tell that you were being *listened to* (sounds like we were successful on that note, yay!), whether or not we agree. I think the hope was that we all could find some common ground to defuse things and reach a more productive space.
lizmat Nemokosch also: the discord bridge was closed from the discord end 22:18
it was *NOT* banned from the IRC side 22:19
Nemokosch Fair enough. Well, I wonder whether it still felt like that *after* the meeting 😅
lizmat Again: I appreciate the energy and the intelligence that you've shown in learning all there is about Raku 22:21
Nemokosch lizmat: that's interesting because there never seemed to be any remark on that from the mods... could be that it happened to choke in a couple of hours randomly? hm
lizmat it happened at 17:25 CEST, and that's about 2.5 hours after I kicked the bot *once* and it immediately returned then
what I do *NOT* appreciate, is personal attacks and innuendo 22:24
Nemokosch To be honest, maybe it doesn't even matter that much why it happened. lucs noticed it first and then at least we two knew about it, others probably not much 22:25
lizmat lucs told me as well... but then again, I'm not on Discord, so there's not a lot I can do
Nemokosch The AlexDaniel precedent comes to mind, and that ended with him being banned/suspended from most Raku-related spaces 22:27
In a way we are similar, in our attitude perhaps, in our concrete thoughts about the language and priorities probably not so much 22:28
lizmat AlexDaniel did many things for what is now the Raku Programming Language, and even to this day is taking care of some of the bots 22:41
please don't compare yourself to him
sleep&
Nemokosch I know, and yet he was banned from github repositories even 22:43
you made it sound as if I was sort of overestimating myself to "AlexDaniel level" :\ He was ejected despite the higher contributions and probably I wouldn't be banned because I didn't make it to release manager, multiple times core contributor and whatnot 22:51
I have talked with him a couple of times recently, and he also wouldn't brag about the "many things he did for what is now the Raku Programming Language". Not going to lie, I had a tiny little hope that maybe I can even convince him to return but it only took like an hour of chatting to realize that he talks about it as a lost case left in the past, almost in a condescending way... 22:59
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Nemokosch For this purpose, the story is simple: somebody who was valued for their knowledge and measurable contribution, was labelled toxic, a person who makes people leave recurringly, and "sadly there was no other choice left" than to keep them from staying active within the community in any shape or form. 23:16
I just don't want to be the same story that's all, even if that means that I have to find a new way of cooperation because this one apparently didn't work out.
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