gist.github.com/masak/5431185; logs at irclog.perlgeek.de/masakism/today
Set by moderator on 23 April 2013.
08:18 ilbot_bck joined
moderator gist.github.com/masak/5431185 -- logs at irclog.perlgeek.de/masakism/today
08:28 moritz joined 10:10 newguy_ joined
newguy_ Hello 10:10
10:13 sohaeb joined
sohaeb when is the tutorial going to be at ?! 10:14
moritz please see gist.github.com/masak/5431185#when 10:16
newguy_ I always wanted to learn perl, but I never had the time to do so. So, as someone who has seen very, very little of pearl code, is this workshop for me? probably not, right? 10:17
moritz it's certainly worth a try 10:18
newguy_ Very well, I'll do as you said. Thank you, see you tomorrow. 10:19
10:19 newguy_ left
masak moritz++ 10:27
hm, could somebody op me? :) 10:28
I should probably set up channel rights before I regret not doing so...
moritz let's hilight timotimo, maybe he'll op you, masak :-) 10:31
10:31 suhaib joined 10:49 cognominal joined 11:17 snearch joined 11:25 Farow joined 12:50 simbabque joined 15:30 dmol joined
masak -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- #masakism is now registered to masak. 15:36
seems appropriate :)
Mithaldu surprised you didn't already do that ;) 15:51
masak to be honest, I pictured us as being perhaps a ragtag group of five... :) 15:52
not twenty.
Mithaldu haha, i hope it still works well :D 15:53
masak we'll see :)
I've been trying to distribute what can realistically be distrbuted. 15:54
Mithaldu beowulf workshop 15:56
everyone teaches for ten minutes
masak :) 15:57
Mithaldu (at the same time)
PerlJam almost T-24 hours 15:58
masak heh, PerlJam++ beat me to it ;) 15:59
PerlJam you can say it definitively in a few seconds
:)
masak T minus 24 hours. 16:00
:P
PerlJam I'm glad there are nicks here that I don't recognize. (if it was just the same crowd from #perl6 or so, I don't think it would be "successful" (whatever that means)) 16:02
16:03 isBEKaml joined
isBEKaml OHHAI, what's up? any changes/updates? (no public logs avbl, so...) 16:05
masak isBEKaml: just us chickens.
Mithaldu isBEKaml: not much for now and i'll be logging what happens 16:06
if perlgeek doesn't recover i'll send my logs to masak after the fact
masak ++Mithaldu
isBEKaml Mithaldu: great, thanks!
masak: mosachastic chickens. :P 16:07
masak will never think of "tender chicken" quite the same again 16:09
isBEKaml masak: Sorry, I didn't mean to kill any jokes, they are supposed to live! 16:16
masak isBEKaml: oh, same here ;) 16:23
d^_^b masak: so just get the latest rakudo? 16:24
masak yeah.
d^_^b alright. 16:34
16:36 felher joined 16:56 Guest66708 joined
Guest66708 I've been following Perl 6 for a long time, (I have a copy of "Perl 6 and Parrot Essentials" 16:59
Somewhere, the discussion got away from me. 17:00
Perl 6 wandered off into compiler-writer land, with a side order of Object-Oriented Theory. 17:01
That makes it a seriously large concept to grasp all at once. 17:03
I think we need a layered approach, from simple (equivalent to early Perl 5), to advanced, through OOP, 17:06
to language-designer land.
That way, people can go as far as they need (or can handle), and bale out with a useful set of concepts. 17:07
It will probably mean circling through some concepts several times, in increasing detail or depth each time. 17:09
masak hello, Guest66708, and thanks for your insightful suggestions about tomorrow's agenda ;) 17:21
Guest66708 You're welcome; has the day yielded a rakudobug yet? :-)* 17:22
masak heh -- no, I've been teaching today, not playing with Perl 6. :) 17:25
Mithaldu Guest66708: you should try entering /nick YourNickHere 17:46
Guest66708 I came back to IRC after a hiatus when a machine died, and I couldn't get the ones I'd been using to work. 17:47
I have very little experience with IRC, don't know the theory, and didn't want to waste anyone's time. 17:48
masak well, as Mithaldu said, it could be as easy as "/nick <some nice nick>" 17:51
T minus 22 hours. 18:01
Guest66708 What's your current offset from Zulu? 18:02
masak I'm on +02:00 here. so it's currently 20:06 where I am. 18:07
I should quickly add though that my current time zone doesn't factor into how much time remains until the start of the workshop :)
isBEKaml yeah, T-22 is fairly relatively absolute measure of time left. :) 18:08
Guest66708 Just wanted to know where you were in your day. 18:10
masak just had supper :) yummy ginger chicken and rice 18:11
isBEKaml Guest66708: come on, masak is still here somewhere. :)
GlitchMr olive.undo.it/perl6/masak0430.txt 18:36
Lame backup of logs
Modify the file name for other days. 18:37
Doesn't appear that perlgeek works right now, so providing the logs.
18:37 Ayiko joined
GlitchMr It's lame hack (based on symbolic links), because too lazy to write and run an application 18:40
Mithaldu GlitchMr: two people logging is a good thing :) (i'm also doing it)
GlitchMr Still, I prefer perlgeek logs. 18:42
Mithaldu yeah, would be nice if they worked 18:44
GlitchMr Because what I have are raw ZNC logs.
olive.undo.it/perl6/masak0425.txt 18:45
"Actually, I have no idea why I joined, considering the channel has logs, but whatever."
heh
isBEKaml oh, the irony. :) 18:54
masak: what do you intend to cover as part of FP concepts? FP from first principles?
that would be too big to cover for a single 4 hr session. :) 18:55
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timotimo FP from FP? 18:58
isBEKaml timotimo: :) Functional Programming from First Principles. Damn, now I had to type that out. :|
timotimo no, i was just suggesting a better shortening 19:00
isBEKaml FP4mFP. Better? :) 19:01
timotimo "fourm" instead of "for"? wow.
masak isBEKaml: I expct there to be much informed and interesting discussion on such topics. 19:02
simbabque: true, not everything can be covered in 4 hours.
oops, mistab.
isBEKaml: but there will be plenty of skilled people here who can shed light on things.
timotimo mhh, light shed painting? 19:03
isBEKaml masak: yeah, I'm much more concerned about NOT introducing things in a firehose fashion. Not that I'm new to FP. 19:04
masak isBEKaml: we won't really be topic-based; that's just what people expect in a workshop abstract. 19:05
isBEKaml: we'll be exercise-based and code-based.
if that makes any sense.
oh, and we passed "T minus 21 hours" five minutes ago :)
isBEKaml masak: I don't know :) I've never been part of any workshop so far. 19:06
masak "so, I can do what I want, as long as I code and discuss code with the others here?" -- "yes." 19:07
basically. :)
isBEKaml Okay, I've been meaning to write up some graph module in perl6. :)
tomorrow might just lay the foundation for that work. :) 19:08
masak \\o/
I'd be delighted to help with that.
(reviewing code, discussing APIs, etc)
isBEKaml sure, all help welcome. My perl6fu is rather sketchy at the moment. I hope they'll iron themselves out over time. 19:09
Guest66708 I've been trying to find a suitable source of examples for Perl 6, graduated in difficulty. 19:11
Farow For some reason I thought Wednesday was today.
Guest66708 First, I tried "Mastering Algorithms in Perl", but that foundered on all sorts of missing modules. 19:12
Farow masak will you notify us before you start?
isBEKaml Farow: depends on where you live. :) It's wednesday where I am.
Guest66708 So, I backed off to the New Testament ("The C Programming Language", 2nd Ed), but that had a lot of character handling, which is hardly Perl's strength. 19:13
Any other ideas for suitable sources of problems? 19:14
isBEKaml There's always Euler.
Guest66708 ? 19:15
isBEKaml projecteuler.net/
Guest66708 Absolutely the opposite of what we need. If you're trying to teach a language, the examples should be about the point you're trying to explain, not a test of the student's algorithmic imagination. 19:18
masak Farow: I'm cointing down hour by hour. do you need more notification than that? :)
Guest66708: check out Rosetta Code. 19:19
Farow If I'm playing a game or doing something other than watching this channel, there's a chance I might miss it.
isBEKaml Guest66708: Oh, I didn't know you were asking for that. I just went by "graduated in difficulty" - which is somewhat true for Euler problems.
masak Farow: how would you like to be notified, apart from on this channel?
isBEKaml Guest66708: RC might be what you were looking for - it's split by tasks in a cookbook sort of a manner. 19:20
Guest66708 I've taught a course where the examples depended on the students' programming cunning. It was written by an academic: their purpose is to wash out students, not teach them. 19:21
Farow Mentioning my name would be nice cause a notification will popup. 19:23
PerlJam masak: clearly you should collect everyone's cell phone numbers and text them 1 hour and 30 min. before. ;-)
Farow Or a pm/notice
19:25 ggoebel joined
PerlJam Farow: why should the burden be on masak for this? You know when it will be; you probably have access to a clock and some means to set an alarm 19:25
masak channel! could you collectively help me remember to wake Farow up before the workshop? he might be playing a game or something ;)
d^_^b so from a layman perspective, what needs to happen for perl6 to be "finished" and people start using it? Just something short an sweet answer. 19:28
isBEKaml masak: can you put the link to the current time in all TZs in /topic? 19:29
masak: until the hour of the workshop, ofcourse.
PerlJam d^_^b: a definition of "finished" that people can agree on and achievement of that standard. 19:30
d^_^b: people are using it now btw; so we're half way there! 19:31
moderator gist.github.com/masak/5431185 -- logs at irclog.perlgeek.de/masakism/today -- everytimezone.com/#2013-5-1,240,6bj 19:32
GlitchMr And, I have to admit. Perl 6 is acceptably fast now. 19:32
d^_^b PerlJam: thought we have to reinvent the wheel/port modules to use Perl6 syntax
GlitchMr It worked while I was making a wiki in Perl 6.
The only real thing which stops me is huge RAM usage. My VPS doesn't have much RAM...
Guest66708 The biggest obstacle I see, (which doesn't necessarily mean it's really the biggest), is the time it takes to load.
GlitchMr [glitchmr@pineapple ~]$ time perl6 -e "" 19:33
real\t0m0.491s
Half of the second on my PC
And it doesn't even have fast CPU.
Guest66708 On a machine where Perl 5 loads imperceptibly fast, Perl 6 is noticceably slow to load.
Of course, "first you get good, then you get fast".
PerlJam yep, that's my main desire from a Perl 6 implementation--speed
GlitchMr I actually wonder wonder how fast Perl 6 would load on my VPS, considering it has SSD hard drive, and 13GHz CPU. 19:34
PerlJam It doesn't have to be super fast, just not noticable-to-the-human-eye slow.
GlitchMr (well, ok, 4 cores CPU, but still)
d^_^b actually speed isn't my concern, I just want something usable. :D
PerlJam d^_^b: usable for what purpose?
Guest66708 Once the compiler's loaded, the execution appears acceptible.
PerlJam d^_^b: it's usable for many things today.
GlitchMr I actually think that Perl 5 is slow. 19:35
isBEKaml GlitchMr: on a quadcore i3, it's 16ms # time perl6 -e ''
GlitchMr Especially with lots of modules.
Guest66708 s/tib/tab/
d^_^b PerlJam: currently just mostly SQLite DB stuff.
GlitchMr isBEKaml, interesting. I'm using a computer with rather slow CPU, so well...
19:35 lizmat joined
GlitchMr cpu MHz\t\t: 800.000 19:35
19:36 ggoebel joined
isBEKaml GlitchMr: I was on a PIII before this. It was agony. :) 19:36
GlitchMr As long I can do anything on this computer, it's fine for me. 19:39
Perl 6 works rather fast on it anyway.
isBEKaml Well, that was over an year ago.
GlitchMr Perl 6 is faster and faster.
And I think that JVM version is faster than Perl 5.
d^_^b sorry to sound dump, but I read a little about the JVM so what is the "JVM" and what is it used for? 19:40
masak it's the Java Virtual Machine. 19:41
isBEKaml JVM - Java Virtual Machine. It runs compiled java bytecode.
masak runs not just Java, but Groovy, Scala, Clojure, and ports of Ruby and Python.
d^_^b right, but respect to perl6
masak it's still that. :)
d^_^b and rakudo
GlitchMr Well, it also runs Perl 6 ;-).
Just like it could run Python.
d^_^b hmm
isBEKaml d^_^b: there's port of rakudo in the works, to make it run on the JVM.
d^_^b so once we get that will make running perl6 faster for one right what else? 19:42
GlitchMr Considering that now most of porting job is to remove pir::, the first working release is coming soon.
isBEKaml and call in all java folks.
Guest66708 How many people here are familiar with the history of PL/1? 19:43
GlitchMr Well, it will still initialize slowly. Because JVM initializes slowly.
isBEKaml GlitchMr: that's only until it hits hotspot, which is an one-time cost for long running processes.
GlitchMr heh, my Minecraft server wastes like 50% of CPU after it initialized, but after few minutes, it goes down to 0.1% of CPU. 19:44
Probably related to Hotspot, I guess. 19:46
isBEKaml yes 19:47
PerlJam Guest66708: are yo about to tell us some doom from not learning from history? ;) 19:48
isBEKaml Okay, time for me to nod off :) See ya tomorrow!
19:49 isBEKaml left
Guest66708 No, but it's a useful example. 19:49
masak Guest66708: please elaborate. 19:51
GlitchMr Then again, while slow loading times are acceptable for servers, and stuff, I'm not that sure about using Perl 6 in UNIX shell (for piping, and stuff).
PerlJam Guest66708: what masak said
GlitchMr Perl 5 works rather well as awk/sed replacement. But Perl 6 is too slow for that.
masak GlitchMr: I think many would have higher demands on server-ware too.
GlitchMr: saying that Perl 6 is "acceptable for servers" is misleading, IMHO. 19:52
Guest66708 PL/1 was supposed to be the One Language To Rule Them All. IBM took the worst features of COBOL and Fortran, rolled them into a ball, and tried to implement it.
GlitchMr Perl 6 running on Android could be interesting. But the RAM usage makes it rather difficult. 19:53
Guest66708 It also had all sorts of options built in, and IBM just couldn't make the consequent monster work.
GlitchMr I don't even care if Perl 6 would waste most of RAM. But not every device has enough RAM for even that.
Guest66708 They finally solved the problem by nailing down a subset, implemented that, and gradually built on it. 19:54
GlitchMr People already ported lots of dynamic programming languages (and Java) to Android.
Guest66708 (Much the same process got their OS/360 off the ground.)
19:55 cognominal__ joined
masak Guest66708: well, we *are* iterating on implementable features in Perl 6. and we have been for years. 19:56
GlitchMr I'll admit it. I'm not even a good programmer. I'm just a computer user, which is interested in using his computer for interesting things ;-).
Guest66708 Understood, but the lesson I'm trying to draw from that is that it might be possible to define a reasonable subset of the desired goal, make it work, and declare that as 1.0 19:58
The problem is to do so in a way that does not compromise developments. ("Painting into a corner".) 19:59
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GlitchMr Giving OPs to guest... ok... 20:00
Guest66708 Then we don't look like the "Duke Nukem" of languages, or decline into irrelevance.
masak Guest66708: there has been talk about creating a new perl6-* list for freezing the spec in the way you propose.
I think it was moritz++ who mentioned that idea.
GlitchMr Guest66708, as far I know, Perl 6 team wants to make a project that wouldn't be rushed.
masak T minus 20 hours. 20:01
GlitchMr Unlike, you know, JavaScript - done in 10 days.
Pushed into browser because first draft was good enough.
lizmat or XS, done in a few days as well
masak yes, but there is interest in producing a stable 6.0.0 spec as well. 20:02
GlitchMr Perl 6 will be stable someday. But I don't think people would want a product that is unusable. Duke Nukem Forever was unplayable. 20:03
But perhaps it's because 3D Realms constantly changed the plans for Duke Nukem Forever... 20:04
masak big parts of the spec are already very stable. 20:05
that's why we have the liquid/slushy/solid distinction.
Guest66708 Is there a big enough floe to constitute a useful language without precluding further development/ 20:06
masak Guest66708: I don't think there is anything Perl 6 can do at this point to not look like the "Duke Nukem Forever" of languages. then again, I'm not sure why that should be a goal. I just want to help create a nice, usable programming language.
GlitchMr When Perl 6 will be finally stable, I doubt people will care that it took 15 years (or more) to release. 20:08
lizmat masak++
GlitchMr Besides, the implementations already mostly work. 20:09
There are still few rough edges (mostly in concurrency), but other than that, Rakudo Perl already implements most of specification. 20:10
Guest66708 How easy is it to draw a line around that, and start developing training material with a reasonable certainty that they will remain correct? 20:11
masak suggests you take this discussion to #perl6 20:13
..where more people can listen in, and contribute
masak op lizmat
d^_^b masak: sorry didn't mean to start a flame war, troll, just I like reading about rakudo and all the effort just I don't know enough about p6, I just want to start buildign stuff in it. 20:14
masak s'ok. 20:15
Guest66708 I wanted to make a modest proposal with a modest audience, in case it was nonsense.
PerlJam d^_^b: What's holding you back from building stuff in it?
d^_^b PerlJam: well I need DBI type module other than that just normal p5 stuff 20:18
masak github.com/perl6/DBIish/ 20:19
PerlJam d^_^b: there are MiniDBI and DBIish on modules.perl6.org
d^_^b hmm 20:20
hmm no sql server support. 20:21
can I do inline p5 in p6?
lizmat FROGGS is working on that 20:22
d^_^b hmmm
labster I'm wondering if I'm going to end up learning more Perl 5 than Perl 6 here. 20:27
I never had the need to write even a lowly class in P5, and now I have written a few classes and modules in P6. 20:28
PerlJam labster: you can do all of that Perl 6 stuff in Perl 5 too, you just need to use some modules and the syntax is all different. But it's basically the same ;-) 20:32
labster I hear 'use Moose;' is mandatory these days. 20:33
PerlJam or "use Moo;" if you don't need so much meta 20:34
felher masak: I just saw you gave me ops. I would have said 'thanks' earlier, but I have overlooked it. So thanks now :) 20:35
masak :) 20:36
rule is, if you're a regular on #perl6, you get opped here. 20:37
felher masak: sounds fair :)
d^_^b oh oh 20:42
/joins p6
:D
felher :D 20:47
Guest66708 Is there a guide to IRC etiquette somewhere? I'm feeling like a yokel. 20:50
20:52 mohij joined
lizmat Guest66708: you could start by setting a more descriptive /nick :-) 20:52
Guest66708 That's a separate problem. 20:53
Farow Probably, someone has made it.
But in general, don't pm people without permission. 20:54
Many people hate /away too.
Guest66708 Have I done either of those things? 20:55
PerlJam Guest66708: you've been doing fine as far as I can tell. 20:56
Guest66708: you don't write with a funny accent, you're not annoying, you're not using excessive punctuation or hitting carriage return every 3rd word, etc. :-) 20:57
masak Guest66708: just be civil as you would be AFK. that gets you very far. 20:59
Guest66708: as PerlJam said, you've been doing fine so far :)
Guest66708: but I second lizmat's request for a better nick than Guest*
pmichaud and we try to be especially nice here, so we'll try to let you know if you're crossing a boundary
21:00 wesjdj joined
wesjdj Hi, wanted to say I'd like to participate tomorrow 21:01
masak wesjdj: cool!
T minus 19 hours.
PerlJam wesjdj: T-19 hours (if my math isn't off)
:)
wesjdj 5 PM my time, nice :)
Guest66708 Thanks, but I still wish there was an FM for IRC that I could RT. 21:02
PerlJam Guest66708: s/RT/R/ ;) 21:03
masak Guest66708: thing is, I've seen many etiquette guidelines for other channels... and we simply don't tend to do much of that over at #perl6. 21:04
PerlJam masak: probably because we already have a culture of niceness and have never needed one. 21:05
masak Guest66708: we expect people to collaborate and be helpful. if they don't, we debug them to try to find a hurt point.
Guest66708: if that doesn't work (in the remaining 1% cases), we jettison them.
Guest66708: a typical silly rule that we don't have is "don't ask to ask". some communities are offended when people ask if they can ask a question. 21:06
Guest66708: another silly rule we don't have is "don't abbreviate 'thanks'". some communities consider it offensive when people write "thx" or "tx".
or "thks".
or "3q" :P
Guest66708: we also don't get angry if people mention Python, PHP, or Java. we also don't get upset when people say Perl or Perl 6 sucks. 21:08
Tene Farow: By /away do you mean changing your nick or sending a message to announce your status, or do you mean setting an actual AWAY status, as in RFC1459?
I've never heard people complain about /away except in referencing it as a better alternative to changing nick to indicate status or sending announcements. 21:09
Farow The former.
PerlJam yeah, it's the auto-away notices that are annoying
masak yeah.
last week, I banned someone who kept-auto-rejoining.
PerlJam-away is away right now
Farow I've seen a website dedicated to hating the /away messages.
Tene Are there clients where /away defaults to changing a nick or sending notices instead of sending an AWAY? 21:10
Farow And I find it annoying too.
It sends the messages to every channel you're in. :/
Don't know, maybe I meant the away status. Basically I see an away message which usually contains a reason as to why someone's away. 21:12
It looks like a /me
PerlJam aye
Tene Yes, my understanding is that that's usually some plugin or script, and /away just sets normal RFC1459 AWAY status. 21:13
Farow Tene I'm using KVIrc. 21:15
Guest66708 Thanks for the reference to RFC1459; that's probably what I'm seeking. 21:16
Tene Come to think of it, I've only used one IRC client for the past ten years, so I wouldn't trust my intuition to be very generalizable. ;)
Farow So what client are you using? 21:17
felher Farow: I just changed my away status using the normal /away command, without any plugins altering default behavior. Did you notice anything?
Farow No.
Tene irssi 21:19
PerlJam Tene: and before that you used ircII ?
felher Farow: I use weechat (weechat.org/) btw, and used irssi before that .
Tene You'll get the away message included in /whois, you'll receive a notification with the away message if you /msg the person, and some clients notice the away status and change the nick list to indicate away status.
PerlJam: Before that I didn't use irc, mostly. 21:20
PerlJam Tene: oh, you must have been *so* productive back then ;)
Tene Heh heh heh.
21:21 pjcj joined
d^_^b PerlJam: I might have to write up a small script to test out p6. when is the estimated completion of rakudo to JVM port? 21:21
PerlJam d^_^b: um ... when it's done? 21:22
d^_^b: only jnthn will have the definitive answer to that one I think. (but my answer is still pretty good :) 21:23
Tene d^_^b: I'd personally guess probably 2013
Assuming nothing unusual comes up
d^_^b ahh. 2013 christmas? hehe sorry 21:24
masak I know jnthn wants it ready by the conference season.
d^_^b like yapc?
masak yeah.
d^_^b wow
that would be great though.
masak that's *not* a promise. :) 21:25
and there will be degrees of "ready", as always.
d^_^b first heard in #masakism
felher good night, good people :)
pmichaud Official answer is that we're not making any estimates about when rakudo on jvm might be available. 21:38
and there are various levels of "completion"
masak pmichaud++ 21:39
pmichaud "runs", "passes some spectest", "passes all tests that rakudo/parrot passes", "passes all tests", "passes tests and runs well", etc.
mohij Hi masak. I'll show up for the workshop tomorrow/today. And hey, thanks for the opportunity. 21:59
masak T minus 18 hours. 22:00
mohij: \\o/
mohij :-)
masak mohij: I added you here: github.com/perl6/mu/wiki/perl6-wor...p-may-2013 22:01
it's nice to have a participant starting with an 'm'. we were missing that so far.
I'm going to get some sleep. see you tomorrow, #masakism ;)
mohij good night 22:02
phew, just in time... 22:03
rzm masak: could you add me to the list? I'll be here for the workshop :) 23:36
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