2009 -- the year of November. <november-wiki.org> <github.com/viklund/november> <irclog.perlgeek.de/november-wiki> <nopaste.snit.ch>
Set by moderator on 21 January 2009.
10:15 masak joined 10:48 ihrd joined
ihrd hi 10:48
zarah hi ihrd
masak hello ihrd
ihrd masak: how are you? 10:49
masak it's the weekend. I'm good. :) 10:50
any you?
ihrd I am well 10:51
Do you see Tene?
masak not yet...
let me see if I can find the original conversation with him about the grant.
it would be interesting to see what we were talking about then. 10:52
logs++
ihrd ah, in English I should say, Did you see Tene, sorry
masak ihrd: I guessed your meaning. :)
my background allows me to guess such things. 10:53
ihrd yes, and this is good, but my English should be cleary :) 10:54
masak it'll be clearer with time, I'm sure.
ihrd thank you, I do my best 10:55
masak as you say yourself, you've been improving greatly in only a few months.
ihrd Did you read TPF article about grants?
masak hm... no, not yet. :/ 10:56
I opened it in the browser, but I've had no time to read it.
yesterday was busy.
ihrd I mean news.perlfoundation.org/2009/01/200...oposa.html 10:57
zarah ihrd's link is also tinyurl.com/7549f8
masak yes, that one.
I saw that the deadline is 31 January, as you said. 10:58
ihrd Yes
but I think we should sent propose on this hollydays
people in TPF nedd time to read and think about 10:59
masak the sooner the better, of course.
ihrd ok, let look at grant 11:03
I will do Maya, Routines, Template
I mean I see how I can do that
masak good. 11:04
ihrd I like REST
masak I will adapt November to whatever Web.pm level is appropriate. preferably the highest one, with MVC.
I see Web.pm as consisting of three levels or 'rungs'. 11:05
1. very simple templating
2. slightly more advanced templating
3. MVC
and the programmer gets to decide the appropriate level.
and gets good defaults for that level.
ihrd so I will implement REST-resources shortcuts in Routines 11:06
masak is REST related to MVC, would you say?
or is it independent?
ihrd REST is about resources, and methods to interact with its
masak yes. 11:07
ihrd you have something like /post/:id
masak right.
so it's unrelated to MVC?
ihrd yes
masak I know what both REST and MVC are, roughly. just never thought about whether they have any connection. 11:08
ihrd REST helps as to orginize our Controllers
and our applications API
but REST just one way, users can use Web.pm and do not use REST 11:09
masak I was just about to ask that :)
do you see November using REST in the future?
ihrd yes, it is good way 11:10
masak good.
that's a topic both for the mailing list and this channel.
ihrd but November is your son, and you can prefer what you like
masak heh :)
I do like discussion, though. 11:11
I'm not 100% dictator, just 90% or so. 11:12
ihrd I think we should mail digest after
masak digest?
ihrd send digest of this dusscussion to the mail list
masak yes, maybe.
I'm a bit short on time right now, so I'm not sure if I'll have time to make a summary. 11:13
but simply linking to the discussion is easy. :)
ihrd okay 11:14
ah, and URI, I will work to make it adult
masak 'a grownup', yes. 11:15
sounds good.
I will focus on the three rungs of Web.pm, on forms and webapp things, and on making use cases work. 11:16
ihrd hm, I am reding our propousel "An XML-aware replacement for HTML::Template."
I still see Web::Template as simple text-base templater, withou XML parser
masak ihrd: yes, that sounds like it comes from my idea of adopting that Python module. 11:17
ihrd: ok.
ihrd hm and HTML::Template... I see more intresting goals now :) 11:19
masak what goals?
ah, Genshi. that's it. genshi.edgewall.org/wiki/GenshiTutorial 11:20
zarah masak's link is also tinyurl.com/3caopv
masak I found that one really, really nice.
and I think it'd be a good idea to have that as the slightly more advanced templating solution in Web.pm.
ihrd I mean I really whant spent time to implement somthing new
masak look at the first XML example on that page. it's really pure. and I think that can be a good thing in many ways. 11:21
ihrd Yes and we speaked about that
masak I've never really liked HTML::Template's syntax.
ihrd I was read this tutorila
masak ah, good.
ihrd so, do you like to implement somthing like this? 11:22
masak oh yes!
very much.
I'm not sure I can do the MVC stuff very well, but I can take responsibility for rungs 1 and 2, the two templating engines. 11:23
(if you want to help, I don't mind. we can share tasks.)
ihrd So, I replace HTML::Template by Web::Template -- perlish template 11:25
masak I don't know what it will be called, but yes. might be good not to call it HTML::Template. 11:26
I figure rung 1 will be simpler than our current HTML::Template, and rung 2 will be more advanced. 11:27
ihrd I start to implement very simple templates in Maya repo, only first step 11:28
masak oki.
that sounds good, I prefer working code over elaborate designs. 11:29
I increasingly feel the weight of different modules residing in different repositories, by the way.
CPAN is a godsend, but one we don't have right now. 11:30
ihrd github is good place 11:31
masak yes.
but dependency handling is manual.
ihrd I thing apps should live in it`s one 11:32
but Web:: stuff can live in one repo
masak aye.
ihrd about deopendencies -- I thing we can relize apps as tar with all modules 11:37
masak 'release'? 11:38
yes, that's a good idea.
maybe even make it automatic through github's URIs somehow.
ihrd "Much of the provisional code currently residing in November will thereby move to either of the two modules." what you mean? 11:45
a u here? 11:52
masak yes, but doing other things.
best way to get my attention is to write 'masak'. 11:53
I meant,
that in the long run, CGI.pm will go away and not be a part of November itself.
ihrd I thinking about yet another app
masak oh, which one?
ihrd Are you sure we should create three app?
masak three seems a good number. 11:54
ihrd I mean I see a lot of work with November and Maya
masak I understand.
ihrd we can spent our time to make it better
masak maybe Tene would like his own app too? :)
ihrd ah, yes, mb. 11:55
masak but maybe we shouldn't _promise_ three apps in the grant applicaiont. 11:56
the important thing for the grant isn't that we make three apps, it's that we make Web.pm and HTTP.pm
but I think having three different apps would help towards that goal.
it seems that Druid will soon become a web app. surely it will also have use for Web.pm and HTTP.pm. 12:08
ihrd masak: good idea, about Druid 12:20
masak mberends is very eager to see it reach the web. 12:21
ihrd masak: I updated propousal
take a look plz
I cange and add a lot
masak and once we have that, I have a number of other games that I'd like to give the same treatment.
masak takes a look
ihrd masak: I have long-term game project too 12:22
masak cool.
ihrd and this would be web-based strategy game
about me changes: 12:23
I add first step, 1 week, specifycation of basics
I change the cause of tutorial -- it about expr I think
masak sorry? didn't understand that last part. 12:24
ihrd and I put "pecifying the features desired for a modern Web.pm module" on the end
masak good. 12:25
ihrd sorry, I mean "Condensing the above experience into a tutorial"
You have another way, specification -> tutorial
experience -> tutorial looks better for me 12:26
masak ah.
yes.
however, a tutorial will need to be developed during the whole process.
do we request 3000$ total?
perhaps 1000$ each, then? 12:27
I'm editing the grant proposal now, but will need to re-read it at least once more before we send it. 12:30
just to see that everything looks good.
ihrd masak: this is time question, I do not know anything about you and Stephen time
masak hm, you're right. 12:31
I'd say 10h per week is not unreasonable for me.
that's 25% time. yes, that's reasonable.
ihrd I can spent 1/3 of week time
and I wrote about that 12:32
masak aye.
ihrd We can decrese time, if we exceed 3000$ 12:33
masak applying the same calculation on my time, I can ask for 1200 $.
I'll write that.
ihrd we should speak weth Tene, If he whant to spent same time, we should decrease grant duration 12:34
masak aye.
ihrd and about tutorial: yes, we will develope it all time 12:35
but we will use this week at the end to make it more readeable and sync 12:36
and then "Specifying the features desired for a modern Web.pm module" 12:37
we can merge this two steps
masak ihrd: you mention "Maya" in the grant, but don't explain what it is. I'll add a short explanation. 12:38
ihrd tutorial + what we see as ideal for our framework
ah, yes, thank you
masak I removed all traces of the "other application" so far. better to add it later if we think we need it. 12:39
ihrd masak: I think we should arrange about dedline for sending this propousal 12:41
masak sure. Friday?
ihrd ah, no
masak running the calculation backwards, there are 3h/week left for Tene.
ihrd Monday 12:42
masak ok, Monday.
I'll write 3h/week for him. and ask him via mail and by IRC if this is fine with him.
ihrd 26 of January I mean
masak yes.
ihrd masak: can you send SMS to me when Stephen come in, and you are ready for disscussion? 12:44
masak you mean so that the three of us can discuss? um, I have some difficulty sending SMSes. 12:45
I don't have a mobile phone.
I can send an email, or a ping via Skype. 12:46
ihrd I really want to do that grant, and I feel we should speak about that and fit all stuff
masak yes.
ihrd ah, yes
masak I like that you take a leading role in finalizing the grant proposal.
just remember that there's a significant change that we'll be redirected back to the "Perl 6 Microgrants".
because I really do think that those are more appropriate for this. 12:47
but it's good to be writing grants, getting the exercise.
ihrd Microgrants is about Microthings, but web f/w is a big one 12:48
I hope TPF found our propousal intresting 12:49
masak yes, we just need to be clear and concise.
ihrd and it is chance for me to do something biger with Perl6
masak aye. 12:50
ihrd++
ihrd masak: about SMS, you can send it be Internet 12:54
masak ihrd: no, not without a mobile phone.
ihrd www.megafondv.ru/prim/sms/
zarah ihrd's link is also tinyurl.com/abthxl
ihrd just use web-form
masak what's your number?
ihrd my phone 125 40 53
this is for free 12:55
sorry, I thing should by the some service in English
masak see if you get the one I just sent you. 12:56
ihrd no. do you fill captcha? 12:57
masak yes, sure.
ihrd mb some lag 12:58
masak or it didn't work. :)
ihrd it works, I send one right now and recive after 1/2 of second 12:59
do you see Ваше сообщение помещено в очередь на отправку.
after submit? 13:00
masak not sure, I'll try again.
ihrd and form should gone
masak "Ваше сообщение помещено в очередь на отправку." 13:01
aye.
ihrd hm. mb this service do not like forigeon IPs :((( 13:03
masak might be. 13:04
with SMSes, I've learned that there is no such thing as a free lunch. 13:05
ihrd ;)
I do not like it too
btw it is fast we to let me know something 13:06
okay, email still be here
there
hm
(I think in English I should say "still be there", yes?) 13:07
masak "email is still there" or "email is still an option", I think. 13:09
in "Controller code organization", is it OK if I write "controller" with a miniscule "c"? 13:13
ihrd masak: aye 13:20
masak ok, I've done a lot of minor updates. 13:21
I like the proposal as it is now, and would consider it done after Tene has given his blessing.
ihrd masak: good! I will re-read it tomorrow, now I need to go 13:29
bb
13:29 ihrd left 15:51 ihrd joined
ihrd masak: hi :) I am back 15:52
masak hello. :)
ihrd Do you speak with Tene?
masak no. pinged him on #perl6, no reply. just sent an email. 15:53
ihrd I just see requested amout, in our propousal and wondered
masak that addition was mine. 15:54
it's counting backwards from 3000$.
ihrd Stephen would be confused, I think
masak you might be right.
I'll remove it. 15:55
ihrd I will do that
masak oh, you're editing already. ok.
ihrd I start to make some changes
We should have cleared, what he expect, mb we should just change duration to fit in 3000$ 15:56
masak aye. 15:57
if we haven't heard from him before Monday, I think it's reasonable to go ahead without him. 15:58
it's just a grant.
ihrd I hope Stephen`s Rakudo development background can helps us a lot with this grant 16:00
But without communication we just cant work, yes
masak with November, I have had very positive results just talking to pmichaud and jonathan. 16:02
they are usually highly responsive to requests and bugfix prioritizations. 16:03
ihrd masak: yes, I was speaking a lot with Jonathan 16:10
masak of course, if there's anything _specific_ that we need for Web.pm or HTTP.pm, it'll be good to have a dedicated Rakudo hacker like Tene. 16:11
ihrd and he always found time to help me with perl6-related topics
masak yes, jonathan rocks.
ihrd I do not speak with PM, mb because I was meet Jonathan in real, but PM not :) 16:12
masak heh. 16:13
pmichaud is very nice too. I met both of them in August.
I think pmichaud has actually fixed more urgent bugs for me lately. 16:14
ihrd I still have some confused about PGE, PM do not answered or mb I miss something, I will recheck this behavoir with ? and send another one email 16:16
masak sounds good. 16:17
you can always ask on #perl6 or here as well.
might actually be easier to get answers that way.
I found something strange yesterday: 16:18
rakudo: grammar G { regex TOP { ^ } }; G.parse(""); say $/.WHAT; say $/ ~~ Match
p6eval rakudo 35948: OUTPUT«Parrot VM: PANIC: Out of mem!␤C file src/gc/memory.c, line 141␤Parrot file (not available), line (not available)␤␤We highly suggest you notify the Parrot team if you have not been working on␤Parrot. Use parrotbug (located in parrot's root directory) or send an␤e-mail to
..parrot-p...
masak um.
rakudo: grammar G { regex TOP { ^ } }; G.parse(""); say $/.WHAT; say $/ ~~ Match 16:20
p6eval rakudo 35948: OUTPUT«Parrot VM: PANIC: Out of mem!␤C file src/gc/memory.c, line 141␤Parrot file (not available), line (not available)␤␤We highly suggest you notify the Parrot team if you have not been working on␤Parrot. Use parrotbug (located in parrot's root directory) or send an␤e-mail to
..parrot-p...
masak this only happens here and on #perl6, not at #parrot.
strange.
anyway, 16:21
the one-liner produces "G\\n0\\n" on the latest Rakudo.
ihrd masak: sorry, I was rock to sleep my child 16:49
realy strange
masak it's ok, I'm doing other things as well today.
I'm writing an essay in Chinese.
ihrd ah, I need to go, bb, see you tommorow!
masak :)
16:49 ihrd left

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