2009 -- the year of November. <november-wiki.org> <github.com/viklund/november> <irclog.perlgeek.de/november-wiki> <nopaste.snit.ch>
Set by moderator on 7 April 2009.
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ihrd masak, hi! 12:13
how are you? 12:14
masak hi ihrd!
I'm good -- I'm ready to blog my fourth week of Web.pm.
how are you?
ihrd I`m happy to see you progress :)
I still slow, but mb you see my 2w post 12:15
masak aye.
I read it this morning.
ihrd do you like Routes?
masak to the extent that I understand them, yes.
ihrd I have no feedback from you
masak I think I need to see them in a working app to really grok them.
did you run into a Rakudo bug that prevented you from progressing? 12:17
or did I misunderstand?
ihrd it`s close to usefull version, but I have block -- | %args NIY
masak NYI. 12:18
ok.
ihrd yes, one of them
masak so it's not a bug so much as a missing feature.
ihrd simplest one
masak we should assault jnthn and pmichaud about this.
I have a feeling that "we need this for Web.pm" carries some weight. 12:19
ihrd yes, you are right, btw it is block, and I do not like to work around it
masak I see.
ihrd :)
masak I know the feeling -- I've had things blocking that I didn't want to work around either. 12:20
ihrd mb Tene can help with this stuff too
masak possibly.
ihrd I tring to find out how implemented | @args 12:22
with hope I can understand how to implement | %args
but have no progress in this direction
just do not understand internals enought 12:23
masak internals are hairy.
maybe jnthn and pmichaud can give guidance in some places. 12:24
ihrd: I have the lobster running. this morning I made Druid show up in the browser too. so, progress.
ihrd yes, I will speak with Jonathan about it
yes, this is good 12:25
masak Adrian, our friendly neighborhood grant manager, seems very absent.
ihrd aye :( 12:26
masak good thing you emailed him. I will do the same today when I've blogged.
ihrd it feels like we do not have grant manager at all
masak indeed.
it will be nice to get him back. 12:33
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ihrd I was push my last Routes 14:29
masak: I like you to make review, as yo do that in the past for my code 14:30
masak: a u here? 14:48
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masak ihrd: will do, sometime during the day. 15:21
Tene masak: Tags exports map?!?! 15:28
will look during flight. 15:29
and will look into refactoring it a bit.
masak Tene: I pushed a commit making it no longer do that.
Tene ah
I didn't get a chance to pull updates before leaving for this flight.
the past few days have been insane. 15:30
got a parrot branch that reports HLL line number for exceptions, though. :)
but will work on web stuff all this week. 15:31
masak Tene++
Tene travel week, so no problems at home to deal with
I really need to catch up. I've fallen way behind
I want tagsets for tags
html5, xhtml, etc. 15:32
Also, if I can get context vars, I can remove the singleton
and PM added an opcode specifically for context vars.
so, promising. 15:33
any requests for Web work this week?
I'd like direction.
(yes, again...)
oops, phone off now.
email?
bye.
masak bye. 15:34
I'll send an email. 15:35
Tene :) thanks 15:36
and sorry again.
masak np.
I'll write thoughts here, and then paste them into an email. :)
since we now can haz browser apps, things get a lot more interesting and palpable. 15:39
I think we should go for the pastebin clone pretty soon. 15:40
what do we need for that? we need to flesh out Web::Request and Web::Response more, and clear up the relationship between that and HTTP::Daemon. 15:45
there's also the question of a storage backend. files is the current default, I'm afraid. 15:49
apart from that, now is the time to start serious porting of either Genshi or Hpricot, I think. 15:50
the former will come of use in November (if we can get it fast enough), and the latter could be used for wrapping use.perl.org to make it usable. 16:03
both are pretty nice use cases, and building them will be fun.
use.perl.org/~masak/journal/38800 19:17
zarah masak's link is also tinyurl.com/dc7r46
sri_kraih_ doesn't understand why someone would want to port rack, it's CGI.pm all over again 19:51
masak sri_kraih_: it is?
and here I've been trying to avoid exactly that mistake. :) 19:52
sri_kraih_ nods
masak sri_kraih_: what, in your opinion, would _not_ be CGI.pm all over again?
sri_kraih_ something based on the idea of abstracting http 19:53
masak ok. I thought Rack does that.
sri_kraih_ it expects a cgi like environment 19:55
masak you're right, it does. 19:56
it seems a very common model for the webapp flow.
are you advocating something more like Seaside? 19:57
sri_kraih_ that doesn't make it right :)
masak sri_kraih_: I hear you. I'm now at the point where I'd like to know what you're proposing instead.
sri_kraih_ i'm very happy with how Mojo is turning out
masak ok.
sri_kraih_ it's all about http 19:58
masak haven't looked at that.
how come you're happy about it if it's all about http?
didn't you want something that abstracted http?
sri_kraih_ like? 19:59
masak oh, you meant 'built upon'. I see.
I read 'abstracted away'.
sri_kraih_ ah
masak now it's much clearer to me what you prefer.
I'll take a look at Mojo and see if I can learn something from it. 20:00
sri_kraih_ the core idea is to have message modules that can represent everything in the http spec
masak what does that give you that CGI doesn't?
sri_kraih_ it's a full http 1.1 stack 20:01
parser and generator
masak sounds nice.
sri_kraih_ you can use subsets of it's features depending on the environment
masak I don't really see why that should be incompatible with Rack or Web.pm.
sri_kraih_ different philosophy imo 20:02
masak very possibly.
sri_kraih_ rack wants to stay away from http as far as possible :)
masak sri_kraih_: its core abstractions seem to be Request and Response. 20:03
sri_kraih_: isn't that what HTTP is about?
sri_kraih_ and Transaction
oh you mean rack
masak aye.
I'm looking at the Mojo synopsis on CPAN right now. 20:04
I see many similarities to Rack.
sri_kraih_ in Mojo we abstract a bit further with Transaction and Pipeline
masak ok, sounds interesting.
will investigate.
ah, so the $tx is a Transaction, holding both the request and response? 20:05
sri_kraih_ yes
and in the next version we'll have Pipeline to hold multiple transactions 20:06
masak ok. when will that be useful?
sri_kraih_ for pipelining
masak well, duh. 20:07
what's that?
sri_kraih_ normal http connection is Request -> Response... with pipelining in http 1.1 you can have Request -> Request -> Response -> Response
masak this sounds both exciting and frightening. 20:08
sri_kraih_ not exactly async, but you don't have to wait for a response to send the next request
masak aha, so the pipeline simply consists of requests and responses treated in a queue-like manner?
sri_kraih_ without pipelining a http 1.1 implementation is usually much slower than http 1.0
sri_kraih_ nods 20:09
masak I see.
sri_kraih_ in the next release Mojo will also contain a reusable state machine for http 1.1 (client and server) 20:12
all you'll have to do is take care of IO and read/write when you are told to
100 continue and pipelining will just work 20:13
masak sri_kraih_: what you are saying sounds quite important, and I hope it will some day be incorporated into Web.pm too -- hopefully without too much retrofitting.
sri_kraih_ we also have parsers and generators for chunked encoding and multipart messages
masak it's not within the bounds of our current grant, unfortunately.
sri_kraih_ i know
actually i'm following your grant work to see how far i could get with a Mojo port :) 20:14
masak :)
you mean a port of Mojo to Perl 6?
sri_kraih_ Mojo was designed to be ported
masak oh, was it? in what way? 20:15
sri_kraih_ mostly being careful with prereqs 20:16
Mojo has none outside of core perl5 atm
masak cool!
I imagine that took some effort.
sri_kraih_ was a lot of fun and a great learning experience :) 20:17
sri_kraih_ learned to hate all the strange edge cases in rfc2616
masak heh. 20:18
sri_kraih_: in summary: I hear what you're saying. I'm on a learning curve too here, so all I can promise is to incorporate Mojo into the things I will look at and hopefully be inspired by. 20:20
sri_kraih_ i'm looking forward to whatever you can come up with that makes porting for me easier :)
the netcat stuff in http::daemon is scary though 20:21
masak indeed.
mberends++ is taking care of that as we speak.
sri_kraih_: I think we all are in need of the Buf type in Perl 6. 20:22
with a bit of luck, I'll be able to start implementing that shortly.
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sri_kraih_ oh yea, another thing about rack that i hate is that it allows direct writing on the socket 20:39
in Mojo we use a pull model, that works way better inside event loops
masak I haven't come across that direct-writing in Rack yet. 20:40
will watch out for it.
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