2009 -- the year of November. <november-wiki.org> <github.com/viklund/november> <irclog.perlgeek.de/november-wiki> <nopaste.snit.ch>
Set by moderator on 27 January 2009.
00:36 Tene joined 05:10 masak joined 07:47 viklund joined 08:20 szabgab joined
masak OH HAI 08:30
zarah saluton masak
masak saluton :) 08:31
viklund ohla 08:35
szabgab hi
zarah privet szabgab
szabgab anyone tried to install Perl6::Conf ?
any feedback on what to improve in the distribution/installation ?
viklund sry, not yet...
szabgab I'd like to make sure it works as smooth as possible today and then convince you to rename HTML::Template and release it 08:37
"today" I mean with the current state of Parrot/Rakudo
viklund ;) I'll try it as soon as Alva has her morning nap
in an hour or so... 08:38
szabgab thanks
viklund szabgab: the pod seems broken somehow, search.cpan.org/~szabgab/Perl6-Conf...l6/Conf.pm 08:56
zarah viklund's link is also tinyurl.com/ap82qd
viklund anyway, I'll try to install it...
szabgab viklund, yes, it is perl 6 pod and search.cpan apparently cannot yet handle it 08:57
I sent an e-mail about it to Graham Bar asking him to look at it 08:58
viklund ;) 09:00
my cpan mirror hasnt mirrored you module yet...
szabgab ouch, I have a minicpan on my computer 09:01
masak szabgab: I don't think HTML::Template should be renamed. 09:02
moritz_ szabgab: to what do you think it should be renamed? 09:03
szabgab uh oh 09:05
masak we try to name modules in November according to what they would have been called on CPAN.
szabgab I'd love to see it on CPAN but you cannot upload it as HTML::Template
masak I'm not sure I'd love to see it on CPAN, even :) 09:06
it's just a throwaway replacement for the real HTML::Template!
but maybe I have to high standards about what deserves to go on CPAN. 09:07
viklund masak: I think so
szabgab so call it Acme::HTML::Template
viklund lol
szabgab Acme6::
masak an interesting question is whether Perl 6's author and version tags would solve the name collision.
viklund hmm, I don't think that HTML::Template is that obscure, though
masak obscure? 09:08
maybe HTML::Template::Perl6, then.
szabgab I think we should start uploading modules to CPAN and step by step solve all the issue
masak aye. it's more or less inevitable.
szabgab it would be easier if all the - temporary - perl 6 packages would be in the same namespace
Perl6:: is partially taken bu some Perl5 code 09:09
masak I don't like to encourage prefixing modules with Perl6::
szabgab but the other choice I though about P6:: is not that nice
masak it sends the wrong message.
same complaint about P6::
szabgab why wrong?
masak because:
a module being written in Perl 6 should not be that different from a module being written in Perl 5.8 or Perl 5.10. specifically, it shouldn't be restricted to only a part of CPAN. 09:10
szabgab I think we should name them so only until we can start to rename them back to their real name
and that requires either a whole new CPAN 09:11
or to chnage PAUSE and CPAN and maybe the rest of the toolchain
masak szabgab: renaming modules after the fact is not that easy.
once the name is established, other modules will depend on it.
szabgab yeah, so you keep the old name around for some time 09:12
masak IMHO, it's important to get this right from the start.
moritz_ and we don't want to write only throwaway softare in Perl 6
we'd just feed all prejudices
viklund szabgab: anyway, installing Perl6::Conf worked seamlessly (once PARROT_DIR was set) through cpan...
szabgab I mean anyone using Perl 6 today has to remember that it is still eperimental
experimental 09:13
masak if someone told me that HTML::Template from November would be the first thing that ended up on CPAN, I'd have thought twice about writing it...
szabgab and a rename is just one kind of deprecation
I think you are too worried :-) 09:14
masak szabgab: I'd like it better if we put Perl 6 modules all over CPAN. that gives more of the right impression. and we won't have to rename them afterwards.
viklund masak: what about completely renaming HTML::Template
masak szabgab: of course I'm worried! you're about to upload the least stable part of November to CPAN, in the least long-term way. 09:15
viklund: fine by me.
viklund and then we can upload it to CPAN without name-collision issues at least, that it's unstable isn
isn't that big of an issue I think
masak also, I plan to put all modules in p6w/ into p6w/lib/ (probably today), because that is established practice in Perl 6 projects. 09:16
viklund: I agree.
but I don't think Perl6::HTML::Template is it.
viklund no, maybe Giraffe?
masak HTML::Template::Perl6 or something like that conveys its function better.
szabgab if you upload it as HTML::Template
PAUSE won't index it (hopefully) 09:17
viklund HTML:Giraffe
szabgab so it won't interfere with normal CPAN.pm installations
masak viklund: it hardly deserves a trademark-like name! it's a partial, ugly, broken version of the Perl 5 HTML::Template.
viklund HTML::BrokenTemplate ;)
szabgab we can ask for a separate indexing method specifically for perl6 packages
masak worksforme
szabgab: I think PAUSE should index it. 09:18
szabgab: I think in all regards, we should treat Perl 6 as just another version of Perl.
it's not the end of the world (or CPAN), it's just Perl 6. 09:19
szabgab but that will mean that noone will be able to install it
viklund szabgab: ??
szabgab or rather, everyone will install the perl6 version and not the perl5 version
viklund ahh
masak yes, that's not good. 09:20
viklund HTML::SimpleTemplate maybe?
szabgab currently cpan only knows about one dimension, version number of themodule
masak szabgab: so we'll rename it.
szabgab: you have to keep up :)
szabgab in order to support both perl5 and perl6 we need at least 2 dimensions
masak szabgab: today's quote. :)
moritz_ Perl6:HTML::Template and Perl5:HTML::Template 09:21
szabgab yes, rename is what I suggested too
viklund another problem with putting it as a cpan module though is that it gets installed in the perl5/ directories
szabgab we just did not agree on the name :-)
masak viklund: HTML::FuglyTemplate
moritz_ but neither Rakudo nor perl5 support that syntax yet
viklund HTML::FUD
masak moritz_: I like the idea, but as you say, it can't be done right now.
szabgab masak, what is today's quote ?
masak HTML::Template::Grammar 09:22
szabgab: 'in order to support both perl5 and perl6 we need at least 2 dimensions'
szabgab: it sounded like a profound statement about the physics of Perl. :)
szabgab ah
masak HTML::Template::Using::Grammars 09:23
HTML::Template::Grandma
viklund lol
masak viklund: I thought you'd like that :)
szabgab my point is that we should start uploading to cpan in a way that works now and fix parts of the process as we goo
go
I believe - if the other parties also help - we can figure out most of it in a few weeks
masak szabgab: sure. just trying to avoid the incorrigible mistakes. :) 09:24
szabgab Andreas has fixed PAUSE
viklund HTML::Tmplt
szabgab So just put big signs on the pod of your code that it is temporary name
noone will be able to read it anyway
masak HTML::Template::Fugly 09:25
szabgab as search.cpan does not yet support perl6 pod :-(
so that's one of the other steps we need to get straight
masak they should use mberend's Pod:: modules.
s/mberend's/mberends'/
szabgab oh I suggested the Perl6::Perlpod of Damian 09:26
but I don't know anyway
masak I think that might be out-of-date, but I don't know.
viklund is there anyway of controlling the installation process so that the module wont get installed in the perl6 directories?
Perl6::Conf now resides in /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.0/ on my computer 09:27
masak hm, I get 'PARROT_DIR needs to be defined and has topoint to the checked out trunk of Parrot' here 09:28
viklund anyway, Alva just woke up.
masak (note the misspelled 'topoint', should be 'to point')
szabgab: I do have PARROT_DIR set, but I still get the error. 09:29
szabgab masak, what os ?
viklund masak: are you sure you have it set?
masak szabgab: darwin.
szabgab viklund, you can configure CPAN.pm to do so but then all your modules will be installed in that other place
masak viklund: $ echo $PARROT_DIR 09:30
/Users/masak/work/hobbies/parrot
szabgab perl -e'print $ENV{PARROT_DIR}'
viklund masak: run this in cpan: '! print $ENV{PARROT_DIR}'
masak szabgab: that also gives the right dir.
viklund: checking. 09:31
viklund: strangely, _that_ fails.
says 'undefined value'
viklund there you go, I had the same error first, then I sudoed first and after that defined the PARROT_DIR and then went into cpan...
viklund writes before he thinks 09:32
masak viklund: ah.
viklund ie 'sudo bash'...
masak viklund: I solved it differently. I just re-exported PARROT_DIR from the shell I was in (no sudo) 09:33
szabgab: I can report success on installing Perl6::Conf
szabgab great 09:34
I'll start to require RAKUDO_DIR as well from next version to let people put parrot inside rakudo
masak szabgab: great.
szabgab: thanks for the great work with CPAN so far. I feel it complements proto in a nice way. 09:35
szabgab and I'll try to learn a bit more git and put the code on github
masak great!
then I can add your module to proto :)
szabgab masak, that reminds me we should work out how can one module check available dependencies
masak szabgab: right. aye. 09:36
szabgab I say we could write that in Perl 6
and include it with every Perl 6 distro, at least for now 09:37
so that might be something coming out from proto
masak szabgab: proto will just keep a file somewhere with a list of installed projects.
szabgab then Makefile.PL would call it
masak something on the order of a hash from names to directories.
szabgab then I think it is not what I wanted 09:38
viklund isn't it possible to get the perl6 code to be installed somewhere else by using something other than Module::Build (or maybe configure it somehow from within the module)?
masak szabgab: ok. what was it you wanted?
viklund: sounds reasonable.
I'd like the 'configure it' option better, of course.
szabgab reasonable request but I am not sure you can do it
without a change to CPAN.pm 09:39
of course that's then what we need to do
write a CPAN::Perl6 or so extension
that will have its own configuration values 09:40
to know where to install Perl modules
Perl 6 modules
the question, how will CPAN.pm recognize it is a Perl 6 package ? 09:41
moritz_ szabgab: by parsing META.yml
szabgab: it requires perl => 6
masak szabgab: have you thought about creating dependencies to parrot? search.cpan.org/dist/parrot/
zarah masak's link is also tinyurl.com/c3k4yc
szabgab I think that would imply that the current CPAN.pm won't install it at all
masak, I think it is too early to really depend on Parrot 09:42
as I understand you cannot actually install Parrot
masak szabgab: and maybe not the right course of action anyway. nvm.
szabgab it is on CPAN only as a way to get the file out
yeah, the whole dependency on Rakudo is also temporary 09:43
after all in the end this whole thing should just know about the the current perl6 it is running inside
09:44 Tene_ joined
viklund isn't depending on perl6 a good way of putting it out? That means we block ordinary CPAN installations. We don't want ppl to install it in perl5 dirs anyway. And then we can somehow use proto to install it instead. 09:46
szabgab no
viklund just a thought 09:47
szabgab if we say we depend on v6 then the whole CPAN process (currently running in Perl 5) will stop
viklund yes
that was the point
szabgab currently for us, perl 6 is an external dependency
yeah but I don't want to implement CPAN.pm in Perl 6 , not yet :-) 09:48
viklund ahh, but we can then use proto to trick CPAN.pm *nudge* *nudge*
szabgab if we had a CPAN client running in rakudo already then that was the solution
and that should be our aim 09:49
viklund the hack would be to with proto change the dependency...
viklund has a sock-eater at home
masak viklund: say hello to your sock-eater from me. :) 09:50
viklund szabgab: yes, so if we depend now on v6 we make sure it's not mixed up and we are prepared for the rakudo CPAN.pm 09:51
szabgab is the sock-eater your kid ?
viklund szabgab: yep
szabgab how old ?
viklund 9 months
szabgab nice! 09:52
masak yes, good job! 09:53
szabgab I don't understand the process then. I'd include perl => 6 in META.yml and then what ?
CPAN.pm downloads it, opens it and blows up
viklund www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2488...1134468212
zarah viklund's link is also tinyurl.com/cau9rs
masak viklund: xkcd.com/531/ 09:54
szabgab he, right ?
viklund szabgab: yes, but if we instead use proto to download it, we can check the dep, change it and then install it somewhere else?
girl
szabgab :-)
I should never ask that way 09:55
so is she also consuming your books ?
viklund szabgab: trying to, I have some books she's allowed to consume
szabgab viklund, sure, but that means proto is a CPAN client in perl 6 already, right ? 09:56
masak "books fit for child consumption"
viklund szabgab: yep
kind of
szabgab sure, that would be nice
viklund I think that was the goal with proto anyway, to download and install parrot, rakudo and perl6 modules. Right?
szabgab our kids went through 2 encyclopedias 09:57
before we switched to wikipedia
masak viklund: yes, but primarily the latter. 09:58
szabgab oh wait, I thought proto was written in perl 6
masak szabgab: not the bootstrapping code. 09:59
that'd be stupid. :P
szabgab sure, I did not know it also fetches parrot and rakudo
masak szabgab: you should check it out.
github.com/masak/proto 10:00
szabgab yeah,
I have it on my disk
but I should more look after Padre now
as it has nearly stopped in the past few weeks
and I should look after my $trainings as well
masak szabgab: it's good that we discuss this, at least. 10:01
szabgab or I won't have anything to feed my kids
masak szabgab: you feed your kids with $trainings?
szabgab yep,
masak :)
szabgab on both accounts :-)
viklund I'm taking Alva for a walk now, see you later 10:08
masak o/ 10:10
viklund \\o 10:11
masak yay, I've finally implemented ul lists! 14:54
I'm not proud of the solution, but perhaps it's enough to know that it'll probably be all right in the end.
15:18 Tene joined
viklund masak++ 15:25
masak viklund: we can merge tomorrow, perhaps. 15:28
viklund masak: sounds good
masak oops, I just implemented ol lists too.
viklund ;)
masak it's tricky, but I'm shrewd. :P
and I use sunglasses so as not to go blind from the code I write. 15:29
moritz_ bets masak used a fair amount of closures
masak moritz_: how did... did not! :P
actually, I have a slight penchant for putting closures in lexical variables. it's like a kind of sub-in-a-sub pattern. 15:30
for anyone wearing sunglasses: github.com/viklund/november/commits...wiki-lists 15:33
zarah masak's link is also tinyurl.com/bmtssu
20:17 zarah joined
viklund xb 20:19
21:50 Tene_ joined 23:38 Tene joined

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