Parrot 3.4.0 released | parrot.org | Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today
Set by moderator on 17 May 2011.
mikehh quite an interesting distribution though, not at all geographical 00:00
sorear mikehh: is it geographical if you consider the servers?
does a DNS round robin like irc.perl.org even TRY to place users with servers on the same continent? 00:01
opbots beleive dalek
opbots believe dalek
slavorgn But I already believe dalek
slavorg But I already believe dalek
sorear opbots names
soh_cah_toa actually lol's 00:02
sorear opbots trust lichtkind
slavorg Ok
slavorgn Ok
cotto_work I like my packets to do a bit of world travel before they arrive at their destination.
mikehh sorear: it doesn't seem to be that way, I mean bacek_at_work remained and aloha did not and I thought they were on the same server
I mean they even have the same hostmark 00:04
sorear I have a suspicion that multiple MAGnet servers are claiming to all be irc.perl.org on /whois 00:05
lichtkind sorear: thanks 00:07
sorear: i still have 2,3 questions :)
mikehh sorear: I know I often connect to different servers as part of irc.parrot.org alias irc.perl,org
sorear wonders if "2,3" means "2 or 3" or en_US "2.3" 00:08
cotto_work I had 3/10 of a question once. It never got answered. 00:09
cotto_work heads home
soh_cah_toa yay!
kid51 If you are attending YAPC::NA::2011, make sure you are subscribed to yapc@pm.org. 00:10
lichtkind 2 | 3
aloha 3
lichtkind = 5 :)
soh_cah_toa kid51: where's the link to subscribe?
lichtkind niecza has only 1 branch? 00:11
kid51 soh_cah_toa: Probably: mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/yapc
soh_cah_toa ok
kid51 That mailing list actually pre-dates the conference registration system we now use, so you may not have been aware of it. 00:12
In any case, at this time of year traffic on it heats up.
I just posted re: What do we do for dinner the night before the conference?
Always the most controversial topic.
seen autark? 00:13
aloha autark was last seen in #parrot 9 days 9 hours ago joining the channel.
kid51 And speaking of dinner ...
00:13 kid51 is now known as kid51_at_dinner
davidfetter bon appetit, kid51_at_dinner 00:14
sorear lichtkind: this is #parrot... niecza is kind of offtopic here. But yes it only has 1 active branch. 00:15
00:30 theory left 00:47 baest left
soh_cah_toa cotto: ping 00:52
cotto soh_cah_toa, pong
00:53 contingencyplan left
soh_cah_toa cotto: i noticed something even more interesting. the error i got before was if i ran hbdb w/ parrot-prove.pbc. however, if i use the bytecode from a file that just does 'say("hello world")', it loops and loop and loops w/ no cli 00:53
cotto soh_cah_toa, a pir file? 00:55
00:55 lichtkind left
soh_cah_toa cotto: no, bytecode 00:56
cotto soh_cah_toa, where did the bytecode come from? 00:57
nqp or pir
or other
soh_cah_toa pir
cotto So it does. 00:58
That's probably not an intentional feature.
and if it is, it's not a very good one
;]
soh_cah_toa uhh...definitely not
i think maybe my hbdb_start() function is never being called 00:59
or one of those
i have a few functions w/ while loops so i have several to investigate
the fact that it executes continuously but w/ no cli is weird 01:00
cotto Wow. One of the comments in Parrot_runcode is from leo in 2003 01:01
Ubuntu's tab completion for makefiles seems to have gotten less smart recently. 01:04
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soh_cah_toa ha! i found it 01:06
01:07 kid51_at_dinner is now known as kid51
soh_cah_toa i couldn't figure out why there was no cli. that is, until i saw the comment "TODO: Start command-line here" 01:07
:)
cotto there you go
soh_cah_toa alright, so now it echoes input. the right way. before was just a quick fix 01:08
now i'm gonna try and get it to print each opcode 01:09
actually, first i want to fix the hbdb_destroy() issue
cotto also, strings 01:11
soh_cah_toa egh...parrot strings annoy me 01:12
fine...
cotto actually, destroying the runloop should go in src/runcore/cores.c. destroying the debugger should go elsewhere 01:14
soh_cah_toa ok. yeah, i do see any of the runcores using a function to destroy the runloop 01:16
*don't
cotto only the profiling runcore needs it
soh_cah_toa yup, there it is 01:17
cotto one nice thing about STRING*s is that you don't have to care about freeing them.
soh_cah_toa you don't have to free char * either b/c they're static 01:19
cotto sometimes
soh_cah_toa it's just really annoying to perform otherwise simple string operations. assigning to a char *, all you need is an = sign (or strcpy(), it depends). assigning to a STRING, there's a bunch of different functions and you have to identify which one; scrolling through perldoc, generating segfaults if you guess wrong. where otherwise a single '=' would've worked 01:23
.1 seconds compared to 1+ minutes of guesswork 01:24
sorear soh_cah_toa: congratulations, you're starting to understand why Parrotfolk want to stop coding in C ASAP 01:27
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soh_cah_toa yeah, there's a lot of things i...dislike...about parrot c code. i'm actually planning on bringing those things up at yapc 01:30
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cotto soh_cah_toa, keep a list going 01:31
soh_cah_toa yeah, by yapc time, i'd like to have a small proposal. listing the disadvantages to some things and offering alternatives 01:32
sorear C is basically horrible at anything to do with user-defined data types
C++ is better at that, but has its own problems
soh_cah_toa hmm...as much as i love c, i'd have to agree w/ that very much 01:33
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soh_cah_toa in a nutshell, my concern is mostly ugly naming/style conventions and lack of inline comments. i'd like to just have stricter guidelines for those things 01:36
it's definitely not as important as something as m0, but after gsoc i'd definitely be willing to write a draft. i think clean code is very important
cotto The thing about changing conventions is that someone has to do it. 01:41
dalek rrot/soh-cah-toa/hbdb: 51aa664 | soh_cah_toa++ | src/hbdb.c:
Fixed runtime error about Getopt/Obj.pbc missing. Now echoes command input successfully (the right way)
rrot/soh-cah-toa/hbdb: 3c48b51 | soh_cah_toa++ | / (3 files):
Removed definition of Parrot_api_hbdb_get_command() as hbdb_get_command() is a core function and the frontend shouldn't call it directly
 01:42
soh_cah_toa i'd be more than willing come next semester
cotto and the reasons for doing so are less technical and more personal preferential
soh_cah_toa hmm...true. but the less strict guidelines are, the crazier code looks over time. regardless of what the actual guidelines would be, i'd just like to see more consistency 01:45
bubaflub NotFound: ping 01:46
soh_cah_toa the actual style conventions we have actually aren't that bad. it's the naming conventions though that'd need improvement
but anyway, it'd be easier to discuss face-to-face and when i actually have some kind of organized proposal written up 01:48
b/c i don't want it to come off as just a rant :)
cotto deal 01:49
soh_cah_toa it's going to be great at the hackathon to have everyone together in one time zone :) 01:51
bubaflub soh_cah_toa: wish i could be there 01:55
soh_cah_toa bubaflub: do you have prior engagements or it's just too far away? 01:58
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sorear soh_cah_toa: yapc::eu? 02:01
soh_cah_toa yapc::na
02:01 plobsing joined
kid51 yapc::na::2011? 02:01
soh_cah_toa yeah 02:02
kid51 Hmm, I thought I had taught aloha that.
aloha, YAPC::NA::2011 is www.yapc2011.us/yn2011/
aloha kid51: Okay.
kid51 aloha, YAPC::NA is www.yapc2011.us/yn2011/
aloha kid51: Okay.
kid51 aloha, YAPC is www.yapc2011.us/yn2011/
aloha kid51: ... but YAPC is intended as an affordable high-quality conference, but there is a fee of some kind ...
kid51 aloha, YAPC is also www.yapc2011.us/yn2011/ 02:03
aloha kid51: Okay.
kid51 aloha: YAPC?
aloha kid51: YAPC is intended as an affordable high-quality conference, but there is a fee of some kind or www.yapc2011.us/yn2011/
kid51 nice bot
bubaflub soh_cah_toa: i originally was going to give a talk, but then my car broke down - i could either afford the conference or, you know, driving.
cotto bubaflub, yapc speakers don't have to pay admission 02:04
bubaflub cotto: getting there + hotel would have set me back too much
cotto that's true
and the cost of not going to $dayjob
bubaflub cotto: we're finishing paying off my tuition and my wife is going back to school in the fall.
cotto: yeah, if i were full time at $dayjob i might have gotten a free pass... they usually send a few people every year 02:05
cotto I should try that. It'd be fun to get a Drupal/.Net shop to pay for me to do a Perl conference.
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dalek rrot-gmp: 4ce91a5 | bubaflub++ | src/GMP/Integer.winxed (2 files):
add vtable override for get_string()
 02:11
rrot-gmp: 5c6ee5e | bubaflub++ | / (3 files):
access the underlying pointer rather than the Winxed object

this fixes mpz_add, mpz_mul, mpz_sub, and mpz_swap
kid51 bubaflub: terrestrial location? 02:12
bubaflub kid51: central illinois
kid51 Ah, non-trivial drive.
bubaflub kid51: yeah, i thought about that - i think it's 10 or 12 hours. which i *could* do but i'm not sure if i can get the time off of $dayjob 02:14
benabik bubaflub: I'm driving 12 hours... Possibly 16 if I detour through my parent's house.
kid51 www.yapc2011.us/yn2011/wiki?node=RideShare possibly helpful 02:18
kid51 must sleep 02:19
benabik kid51++
02:20 kid51 left
soh_cah_toa is there a function where i can print the name of an opcode along w/ it's arguments given its opcode_t value? i'm not sure where to look for this 02:31
pretty much, what i want to do is just print all the opcodes in a pbc file one by one
sorear look in pbc_disassemble? 02:38
cotto I don't think there's a function, but the op_info_table struct has all that information
pbc_disassemble should be helpful 02:39
soh_cah_toa oh yeah
i may already know the answer to this but i just want to make sure... 02:46
does headerizer "headerizer" a file even if no changes in its respective .c file where made? is it smart enough to just "headerizer" new functions?
b/c whenever i define a new function and run headerizer and then re-compile, EVERYTHING gets rebuilt
sorear you already know the answer 02:47
soh_cah_toa alright, just wanted to make sure my makefile wasn't configured wrong or something 02:48
cotto You can manually headerize a single target by specifying a .o file. I'm usually too lazy. 02:49
soh_cah_toa oh that's right
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dalek rrot-gmp: bee2a23 | bubaflub++ | t/integer/ (2 files):
fix addmul and submul

had my order of operations wrong, the real functions compute rop +- (op1 * op2) also remove a debug statement		 03:00
bubaflub yay, now my entire test suite passes. time to write more tests.
soh_cah_toa lucky ;)
bubaflub soh_cah_toa: it's just because i don't have to deal with IMCC, line numbers, PIR, C, parrot guts... 03:01
soh_cah_toa ha!
cotto soh_cah_toa, your entire test suite passes too. 03:02
bubaflub soh_cah_toa: how's the project coming along? 03:03
cotto hint hint
soh_cah_toa ha! 2x
hmm...well i was stuck for a long time so i lost a bit of time. now i'm working on things that should've been done from the start 03:04
eh, you learn though
cotto yup. learn and write tests 03:06
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bubaflub soh_cah_toa: yeah, no plan survives contact with the enemy. 03:09
cotto imcc being the enemy in this case
soh_cah_toa you beat me to it :)
cotto a lot of things don't survive contact with imcc
benabik cotto++ 03:14
soh_cah_toa speaking of tests, that reminds me of something i wanted to ask... 03:15
you said that writing tests before you code is a nice way to see how things will work before you even implement it. that makes sense.
however, doesn't that leave me open to all kinds of bugs that the compiler would otherwise catch right away? i mean, i can't syntax check my tests
i'm mostly referring to the c_output_* functions where you actually type the tested code inside heredocs. which is what i'm gonna have to use here
sorear it doesn't really matter whether the tests are correct, as long as they test something 03:17
the idea of testing is that you won't screw up twice in the same way
just make sure you don't have tests that cannot fail
cotto soh_cah_toa, you should really think about how to write hbdb so that it's amenable to automated testing. Testing C internals is not preferable because it means you're often testing the internals rather than the output. 03:19
and yes, it's not vitally important that your tests be perfect. You can fix any bugs you find once you're able to start running them. 03:20
soh_cah_toa well, take t/src/basic.t for example. at line 29 is one of the c_output_is() functions i'm talking about. inside the heredoc, suppose i leave off a semicolon, i'm not gonna get a "syntax error at line blah blah blah" message 03:21
cotto That's one of many reasons to minimize the number of C tests. 03:22
soh_cah_toa but everything i have is c
cotto You can check it manually by running the foo_12.c files that Test::More generates, but that's clunky.
Sure, but you don't need to test C with C. You just care that, for a given input, you get something that looks like the right output. 03:23
It's a little bit trickier because of the interactive nature of a debugger, but there should be a reasonable strategy for writing useful tests. 03:24
soh_cah_toa well that's another thing. i don't really know how to "think about how to write hbdb so that it's amenable to automated testing." sadly, i'm just not really sure what that means (thank you college)
cotto What's your understanding of how a test should work? 03:25
soh_cah_toa it just tests that your code does what it's supposed to do. how it does that... ??? 03:26
bubaflub soh_cah_toa: there are really two ways to go about testing, at least as i see it 03:27
soh_cah_toa: unit tests might test individual functions or blocks of code - give it a certain input and a certain output should happen
soh_cah_toa: integration tests can actually test a full stack of code 03:28
cotto Tests are a way of running code under controlled and monitored conditions that are known to exercise a specific behavior.
bubaflub soh_cah_toa: in your case, you may want both. the unit tests can make sure that, for example, individual functions are doing exactly what you want them to do. even if it's trivial functionality, it can sometimes save your bacon.
soh_cah_toa: an integration test would actually automate a run of the debugger - say, load a file, set a break point, continue, and verify that you in fact stopped at that point 03:29
soh_cah_toa integration sounds like it may be a little harder in my case since it's an interactive program
cotto yes, but it's also important 03:31
bubaflub soh_cah_toa: it is more difficult - for example, when we do integration tests for websites, we'll have to actually tell a program to go to a certain page, enter a user name and a password, hit the submit, and so on and so forth
soh_cah_toa: for some integration tests we'll even need to run javascript or automate a browser
soh_cah_toa: but it's great when we know we broke something 03:32
soh_cah_toa: and the integration test is the real selling point - we want a certain set of actions to work (such as setting a breakpoint, inspecting a variable, etc.) rather than just individual functions
cotto bubaflub, I wish my $dayjob did that. The big weakness of (pre 7.0) Drupal is a lack of testing infrastructure.
bubaflub cotto: yeah, we've got some Catalyst and other perl frameworks. we use WWW::Mechanize and cousins. 03:33
cotto cpan ftw
bubaflub cotto: testing in PHP is just difficult
cotto: rather, from my limited experience, i'm not sure which testing framework to use in PHP
cotto Testing is not an idea generally embraced in PHPland from what I've seen.
I'm really glad Parrot inherited its testing culture from Perl. Perl definitely gets it right. 03:34
bubaflub cotto: agreed.
soh_cah_toa: testing can be a bit overwhelming and non-intuitive at first, but it's just a simple mechanism to *automatically* verify sanity on certain actions. test driven development takes this one step further and says you should write your tests first, then write the code for it to pass. 03:35
soh_cah_toa: and yes, it is probably difficult to test in C or PIR the debugger; you may have to do some heavy lifting in another language to do something as crazy as an integration test. 03:36
soh_cah_toa: and i'm more than happy to look over tests or bounce ideas off of if you need it 03:37
soh_cah_toa another thing, whenever i learn how to actually do all this, when do know when i have enough coverage? 03:38
when is enough, enough?
cotto soh_cah_toa, I'm glad you asked. make cover will tell you how much you have. It's up to you to figure out if a bit of code is worth covering or not.
soh_cah_toa ok 03:40
cotto You should cover anything that can reasonably be covered.
Testing if a malloc fails isn't necessary.
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cotto soh_cah_toa, if all you did tomorrow was figure out a way to run integration tests on hbdb, I'd consider that a day well spent. Once you get the idea in your head, the rest is a smop. 03:43
soh_cah_toa the thing that frustrates me the most is that i can't even identify what it is i don't understand about testing. 03:45
i can clearly see why it's so important. i can see when it needs to be done.
but when i think about what this means for hbdb, my mind just goes "wait...what?"
cotto write some pseudocode
soh_cah_toa for? 03:46
cotto for the test harness, for a test, for whatever 03:47
sorear cotto: I thought Parrot used a malloc wrapper that *cannot* return null 03:50
cotto sorear, yes. That's just an example of an unusual corner case. 03:51
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soh_cah_toa i think i just thought of something i can test by tomorrow 04:06
the next thing i was gonna do is parse the input to check that it's an actual command
i could write a test that fake inputs a real command and make sure it's recognized and then fake input garbage and make sure it isn't regcognized
cotto That'd be a great start. 04:08
soh_cah_toa ah, yes
+1 for me
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cotto sleep sort is my new favorite algorithm 04:09
dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1295544154 (sfw) 04:10
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soh_cah_toa shudders 04:11
sorting algorithms are my greatest weakness 04:12
cotto It's hilarious. 04:13
soh_cah_toa especially the comment "oh god, it works" :)
benabik Guh. I've been staring at code all day and I still have no idea _why_ this fails. 04:19
soh_cah_toa ah, i get it. larger numbers sleep longer so the smaller ones return in order from small to big 04:22
that's awesome
cotto yup 04:23
so ridiculous, yet so brilliant
soh_cah_toa yeah, wow. that is pretty genius
plobsing personally, I still prefer the bogosort
soh_cah_toa it is simple, i'll give it that 04:25
benabik Radixsort blew my mind. O(n) sorting. 04:28
cotto karma lulzsec 04:33
aloha lulzsec has karma of 0.
soh_cah_toa cotto: anyway, i'm trying to go through some code thinking "how could this possibly go wrong?" and if there's some way it could, then (i hope) it needs a test 04:34
is that a good approach?
benabik ... This has to be a bug elsewhere that's just exposed when I make this change. Gah. I hate this. Maybe if I bisect and apply the change on top of random commits... 04:35
cotto soh_cah_toa, you could do worse. The first thing to test is the normal expected usage, though. After that, go nuts.
benabik is slowly going crazy.
Crazy going slowly am I.
soh_cah_toa oh right. i'm just trying understand what kinds of things would need to be tested 04:36
cotto soh_cah_toa, anything you can write a test for is fair game. 04:37
plobsing soh_cah_toa: a decent goal is at least one run through of every code path
soh_cah_toa alright, well atleast i have somewhere to start tomorrow. i have a feeling that i'll be just fine after the first step 04:38
cotto Yeah. Getting the first test written will be the hard part. After that is the slightly less hard part. 04:39
well, several of them
benabik Yessss... The base tempreg commit passes, so I must have goofed something else! (YOU ALL GET TO HEAR MY MADNESS!)
Debugging register allocation is "fun". 04:40
soh_cah_toa hasta la pasta amigos 04:41
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cotto www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH2-TGUlwu4 <-nyan cat + extra nyan cat 04:44
benabik How did they do that? That's crazy. 04:45
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cotto step 1: get 15+M views 04:46
benabik Hah
step 2: amuse some bored Google engineers?
cotto I guess so 04:47
tadzik I feel disturbed than the background moves at a different tempo than the music 04:50
benabik Yes, THAT's the disturbing part. 04:53
tadzik also, when people sing a capella and can't hold the pause 04:54
benabik My constant is changing. NQP needs real constants. :-( 05:15
... Incrementing an Integer PMC changes the PMC directly doesn't it. Integers aren't constant. Guh. 05:17
sorear yeppp 05:18
benabik I think that's what was doing it. I bound a variable to a "constant", incremented the variable and that changed the constant. 05:19
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benabik I just discovered the bug when I changed enough other code that overlap started happening. Wheeeee... 05:25
05:26 Kulag joined
tadzik oh 05:29
benabik Looks like I may be done with this bug driving me mad. 05:36
Time to find the next thing that'll make me crazy.
tadzik how about imcc? :)
benabik Oh that keeps popping up, but I've usually found the sorting through the PIR based on method name and error will generally get me to a useful `.annotate 'line'` 05:37
Not that that's how I want to spend my time, mind you. 05:38
tadzik examtime & 05:39
benabik I appear to have caught up with pmichaud's work. Wheee... Now to test nqp-rx's master on it. 05:42
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benabik codetest is complaining about ops_not_tested.pl missing. :-/ 06:50
Oh, reconfig fixed it. *sigh* The coupling between code changes, MANIFEST, and configure is a hazy one. 06:53
cotto and makefiles 06:56
sorear when in doubt, git clean -dfx
"realclean" targets are subtly broken most of the time when they exist at all 06:57
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dalek rrot/nqp_pct: cff934f | benabik++ | compilers/pct/src/P (22 files):
Re-bootstrap PCT to remove broken-ness

Old bootstrap had bad code to generate contextuals, making it impossible to rebootstrap without manual intervention. That intervention has now been done and code can move on.		 07:19
rrot/nqp_pct: 12dba40 | benabik++ | / (6 files):
[pct] Add PAST::Stmt, UNIQUE_BASE and TEMPREG_BASE

From:\t8392f3192d04c7e8c069d6690b053980208dee6b Author:\tpmichaud <pmichaud@pobox.com>
rrot/nqp_pct: c754a26 | benabik++ | compilers/pct/src/PAST/Compiler.pm:
[pct]: Code for managing temporary register pools

From:\t7e3b1613648d0074e0ab33566d438c0239b20a14 Author:\tpmichaud <pmichaud@pobox.com>
rrot/nqp_pct: 3457fe4 | benabik++ | compilers/pct/src/PAST/Compiler.pm:
[pct]: Use tempreg in coerse, pirop, and Val

Have register coercion, :pasttype<pirop>, and PAST::Val use temporary registers. This greatly reduces the number of registers used in any given sub.
From:\te2eab899fb167d40a1c85aa0425e1593c3758dc9 Author:\tpmichaud <pmichaud@pobox.com>
rrot/nqp_pct: 04ef874 | benabik++ | compilers/pct/src/PAST/Compiler.pm:
[pct]: tempreg in immediate block, if, for, return

Use temporary registers in immediate block return values, method/sub calls, :pasttype<if>, :pasttype<for>, and :pasttype<return>.
From:\t190bf17a32c0bbdb3fb999496dc2f7874a027c06 Author:\tpmichaud <pmichaud@pobox.com>
rrot/nqp_pct: 1d4622f | benabik++ | compilers/pct/src/PAST/Compiler.pm:
[pct]: No tempreg inside exception handlers

Temporary registers and exception handlers might not mix, so disable temporary register generation while processing handlers.
PAST's built-in loop handlers ought to be safe, however.
From:\t72a56d9dc12b663a95bcdefa7c666304849c7f06 Author:\tpmichaud <pmichaud@pobox.com>
rrot/nqp_pct: 0445396 | benabik++ | compilers/pct/src/PAST/Compiler.pm:
[pct]: tempreg in vivi*, force unique in .lex

Update 'viviself' and 'as_vivipost' to use shared temporary registers, force ".lex" declarations to always use a non-shared registers.
From:\tefc90318a5d1232b02a04b4c4c56d1ac8067b001 Author:\tpmichaud <pmichaud@pobox.com>
rrot/nqp_pct: 8783a78 | benabik++ | compilers/pct/src/PAST/ (2 files):
[pct]: Let PAST::Block have its own tempregs

Add the ability for a PAST::Block to start a completely new temporary register bank.
From:\t6a763d7d00d6800c30d5d8b79b8dc4d4a86ffab4 Author:\tpmichaud <pmichaud@pobox.com>
rrot/nqp_pct: ea9260c | benabik++ | compilers/pct/src/PAST/Compiler.pm:
[pct] Stmt - don't reserve return in void context

Don't reserve a Past::Stmt's return register when in void context.
From:\tfb77d3c5719dba4f06a2f35672c279d90d47917f Author:\tpmichaud <pmichaud@pobox.com>
rrot/nqp_pct: 0ebb103 | benabik++ | compilers/pct/src/P (23 files):
Re-bootstrap PCT to get PAST::Stmt

Now NQP-ized PCT can compile NQP-rx's master. Excellent.
rrot/nqp_pct: 0ab886e | benabik++ | / (13 files):
Merge branch 'master' into nqp_pct

Conflicts:
  \tcompilers/pct/src/PAST/Compiler.pir
  \tcompilers/pct/src/PAST/Node.pir
benabik Okay, that's it. Show's over. ;-)
moritz :-) 08:27
tadzik :) 09:22
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pmichaud ~/lastlog pmichaud 5 12:24
oops
moritz good morning pmichaud :-) 12:25
pmichaud good morning, #parrot
still getting used to this new keyboard
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tadzik hello pmichaud 13:11
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whiteknight good morning, #parrot 13:30
tadzik good afternoon whiteknight 13:31
whiteknight hello tadzik, how are you doing today? How is the project going?
tadzik not bad. I had a math exam today, which I think I should pass, and I got my shiny Kindle today \\o/ 13:32
whiteknight oh fun.
I've been kicking around the idea of getting a kindle, but I like having a physical book in my hands too much
tadzik and gsoc is doing good, I managed to get no slips due to university mess, everything's to the schedule
whiteknight oh nice. Sticking to schedule is the hardest part
tadzik I have to many books on my hdd which I really want to read, but reading from the screen sucks so much
pmichaud I got a Galaxy Tab for reading e-books (incl Kindle books); now I greatly prefer it to the physical kind of book. 13:34
(which surprised me a bit)
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moritz I've had an ebook reader in my hand once, and it took about 3s to flip to the next page 13:35
which annoyed me to no end
tadzik it takes about 3/4s on my Kindle
OTOH, you get a 14-30 days of battery life :) 13:36
pmichaud yes, a 3s flip would be annoying.
moritz 3/4 s sounds tolerable
atrodo moritz> Same reason I hate digital cable. Waiting over a second for a channel change when analog is instant drives me bonkers
tadzik yeah, it's like flipping a physical page :)
and I got back to reading HPatMoR :)
whiteknight atrodo: yes, channel change delays drive me bonkers. Much more than they really should 13:37
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tadzik has no TV 13:37
whiteknight it's amazing how such a little inconvenience seems like such a big thing
pmichaud I like that I can stand the Tab on its side on the table or desk in front of me and not have to hold it. With a book I have to hold it open or it's not at an appropriate viewing angle.
tadzik well, I pay for one, they don't sell internets w/o a TV
moritz pmichaud: sounds like it would be very useful for me, since I often have only one hand free when carrying or holding the toddler 13:38
tadzik :)
whiteknight I'm also weary of getting anothet gadget. Between my phone, my laptop, and my gameboy, I don't think I have any more love to spread around
my wife and kid already get the short end of that stick :)
atrodo whiteknight> wife and kids are overrated, gadgets are where it's at 13:39
pmichaud pmthium.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2...asel-1.jpg # picture of Tab standing
atrodo also glad his wife doesn't get on irc
tadzik pmichaud: nice indeed
whiteknight atrodo: I've had to put my kid in time-out twice for breaking my laptop. I've never had to put my laptop in time-out for hurting my kid. Not once. Food for thought 13:40
atrodo whiteknight++ infallible logic 13:41
pmichaud whiteknight: that's only because your kid isn't old enough to be hurt by your laptop :)
whiteknight pmichaud: that's true. Right around when I turned 15 or 16 was when I was irrepairably damaged by the internet
atrodo pmichaud> or he hasn't figured out a screwdriver and which wires not to bridge
pmichaud I frequently have to protect the kids here from the laptops... the laptops are always demanding their attention when they should be outside playing or doing homework or cleaning the house :) 13:42
atrodo Now that brings back memories of childhood
whiteknight actually, I had a friend back then with a cable descrambler. That did much more damage than the internet at the time. Delivered nudity at much higher bandwidth 13:45
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whiteknight so many things I need to try and keep my kid away from! 13:47
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benabik Good morning, #parrot 14:02
tadzik good morning benabik
benabik tadzik: What's happening? 14:03
bubaflub ~ 14:04
tadzik benabik: playing with my new kindle 14:06
benabik tadzik: Sounds productive! :-D I got a Sony e-Reader a couple years back. It was really nice when I could find properly formatted eBooks. 14:07
moritz tadzik: how does "Using Perl 6" look on the kindle? :-) 14:08
tadzik Calibre is able to convert stuff pretty nicely. I turned my Higher Order Perl into a .mobi, .pdf if free while Kindle dition costs like 30 bucks on amazon
moritz: haven't tried it yet :)
Modern Perl looks nice
the unofficial mobi of it at least
benabik The new iterations of eInk screens make me tempted to switch up, but I tend to use my iPad more anyway. 14:09
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NotFound whiteknight: I have a phone, a tablet, a miniportable, two laptops and a NDS. 14:48
Eh... no... two NDS in fact. 14:49
whiteknight NotFound: ETOOMANYGADGETS 14:51
NotFound And I still miss an ebook reader, I don't enjoy reading on the tablet. 14:52
benabik NotFound: Which tablet?
NotFound Toshiba Folio 100 14:53
BTW the old laptop is useful, I've fixed several parrot win32 problems in its venerable XP Home. 14:56
benabik Bad screen? I find my iPad pretty good for reading, although sometimes I do miss the page-like eInk. 14:57
NotFound With notepad.
benabik: I'm getting a bit less young and my eyes are more demanding ;) 14:59
NotFound is older than Emacs 15:01
moritz is older than Perl
benabik is surprised to be older than Perl. 15:02
szbalint a couple billion years older :)
at least the core codebase 15:03
moritz \\o/ szbalint, long time no see 15:04
szbalint hey :)
indeed 15:05
NotFound But hey, I'm almost a child, I have a NDS ;)
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whiteknight what is an NDS? 15:12
benabik Nintendo DS, I'd imagine.
whiteknight oh yeah, that makes sense 15:13
NotFound Aye
benabik Hopefully a Lite though. The original was bulky as all get out.
NotFound A lite and a DSi
atrodo I grew up with an original gameboy
NotFound I've never had consoles until recently, but now I have a Wii and the DSs. 15:14
JimmyZ Wii U ? 15:16
the next generation?
benabik I don't see the point in having a Wii U right now. Not a lot of games for it.
NotFound That may become my second non-portable console. 15:17
JimmyZ I'm not that like Wii U now. though I like Wii 15:18
NotFound I have no urgence, in a few months maybe. 15:20
benabik Ignoring stupid touchscreen tricks, it appears to be a Wii with actual computing power. Which sounds awesome.
NotFound: Well it's not supposed to be released for a year or so... 15:22
NotFound benabik: my lack of urgence is such as not worrying to look for the release date ;) 15:25
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benabik I find the variety of types of variable in Parrot slightly confusing. What's the difference between (get|set)_global and \\1_hll_global? 15:27
NotFound benabik: the _hll_ variants look in the current HLL base namespace. 15:30
benabik NotFound: Otherwise it just looks in the current namespace? I suppose that actually makes sense.
NotFound benabik: yeah
And there is also the _root_ variants. 15:31
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benabik Hm. PAST appears to use .lex to define variables as registers and then proceeds to use find_lex and store_lex instead of the lex register. 15:53
PAST & POST could use a _lot_ of optimization love.
moritz benabik: yes, but it requires some decent amount of static analysis 15:55
benabik: you can only use registers if inner blocks (which are compiled to separate subs) don't access the variable
benabik: that said, if it's done correctly, such optimizations will be *greatly* appreciated by all users 15:56
benabik moritz: Well, you could still lift a lot of fetches into a single register at block entry.
moritz: Yes, it's a decent amount of static analysis but this is a solved problem to some extent. 15:57
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benabik has a dream of generating an SSA form of PIR and doing some basic optimizations from that. 15:58
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benabik moritz: Blocks are separate subs to handle lexical variables properly, ne? 15:59
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benabik likes the idea of the tree-optimization library but is sad that no actual optimizations seem to be written using it. 16:01
whiteknight yeah, it's a good concept, it just needs to be put to use 16:02
jnthn__ Thing is, at least for Perl 6, the PAST tree ain't really enough for a bunch of the interesting optimizations. You need to look at the type environment, stuff in the lexpads, packages, etc. 16:03
cotto_work ~~~ 16:04
jnthn__ For other languages I suspect it may be more applicable.
benabik jnthn__: You can't get interesting optimizations, but you can probably get some simple ones.
jnthn__: I'd be very surprised if repeated `fetch_lex`s couldn't be combined in any language. 16:05
NotFound I still think that the best way to optimize out redundant opcodes is just not generating them. 16:06
jnthn__ benabik: They can be in some langauges, yes.
benabik: Not in Perl 6 though...at least, not naively. :)
lucian hmm, having trouble with an imcc error gist.github.com/1029584 16:07
benabik jnthn__: The only reason I can see for not collapsing fetch_lex and get_global calls is in case of parallelization. And to some extent, P6 containers should help avoid that problem since the _container_ is unlikely to change. 16:08
NotFound lucian: a=$P01 = builtins["int"] ??? 16:09
jnthn__ benabik: You seem to be confusing binding and assignment. Binding could replace the container.
So we have to know that the thing will never be re-bound.
lucian NotFound: but it's not even complaining about that line
NotFound: it stops at line 9, which looks innocent 16:10
benabik lucian: Are you trusting imcc--'s line numbers?
lucian benabik: ah, i should not?
NotFound lucian: never trust imcc line numbers in reports.
lucian NotFound: benabik: ah. ok, thanks
NotFound lucian: BTW, always indent pir code.
lucian NotFound: it's generated code, i haven't bothered to make it indent nicely yet 16:11
NotFound Non indented made line numbers even worse.
whiteknight yeah, IMCC's line-end heuristic helpfully requires indented code
lucian but, that makes no sense 16:12
benabik jnthn__: Arg. P6 is a little too mutable in some ways. Can you even rely that packages won't change? If so you could collapse repeated "$P### = get_global ["PAST";"Ops"]" type calls.
whiteknight repeat after me: IMCC--
lucian i see 16:13
benabik IMCC--
bubaflub karma imcc
aloha imcc has karma of -20.
NotFound lucian: reality is unrealistic.
whiteknight it should be much lower
benabik That seems way too high. Maybe people gave it positive karma once upon a time.
jnthn__ benabik: We can resolve type names at compile time, yes. 16:14
And actually do in nom.
Apart from generics, which we have to postpone.
benabik Are we doing a code freeze this weekend? 16:19
whiteknight who's the release manager?
cotto_work ohai
benabik is mostly curious because I think the small nqp-rx stmt improvement might be good to get into parrot.
cotto_work <-
benabik: I'll most likely request a freeze starting Sunday. 16:20
benabik cotto_work: Can/should we update our bundled nqp-rx before then? 16:21
cotto_work: The PAST::Stmt addition really cuts down on register usage, which really improves imcc's compile time on generated code. 16:22
Although the insane number of registers used in PAST::Compiler does appear to be stressing the new allocator quite well.
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cotto_work benabik: when was it last updated? 16:24
whiteknight Can we update nqp-rx to emit 'file' annotations, if we're going to be updating the snapshot?
cotto_work looks like Feb
whiteknight For somebody familiar with the codebase, I can't imagine that's too hard to do
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benabik cotto_work: pmichaud++ added PAST::Stmt to nqp-rx a couple days ago. Prior to that the last commit to rx was in Feb. 16:25
whiteknight TT #2132 16:26
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allison hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/blog/new-gc-preview 16:31
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benabik allison: very interesting. 16:36
lucian benabik: i think ghc folks are spoilt though, since haskell's pure 16:37
JimmyZ looks like there are many papers on haskell
benabik lucian: That helps some, but the general concept of thread-local young generation mixed with stop-the-world full gen should be applicable anywhere.
JimmyZ I always see it here and there
lucian benabik: yes, of course. there's just a lot more details to take care of 16:38
benabik lucian: Of course, but they have to be taken care of anyway. :-D
lucian and in general, having to support imperative languages requires more locks
benabik: yes. dreadful, isn't it? :)
benabik whiteknight: When I finish working on this bit of PCT, I'll look into NQP file annotations. 16:39
It should be a one-liner somewhere obvious. 16:40
benabik knocks on wood.
cotto_work github.com/MrMEEE/bumblebee/commit...ce6#diff-1 - ow 16:45
benabik cotto_work: I like the meme image. "I don't always install Bumblebee. But when I do, it deletes my /usr folder." 16:47
NotFound Now you know why some people are reluctant to add a 'uninstall' make target ;) 16:49
"Just a bunch of rm -rf as root, what can be wrong?" ;) 16:50
benabik NotFound: This is why I tend to install as a standard user into a tempdir and then use stow to actually put it in place 16:51
(When I don't use .debs)
cotto_work benabik: that looks interesting. I just install to /usr/local/parrot-git and make sure to have some symlinks in place. 16:52
benabik cotto_work: My "Make" script uses DEST dir to install into `pwd`/temp and then uses "mv temp/usr/local/* /usr/local/stow/parrot" 16:53
cotto_work: I do that sort of thing a lot.
*DESTDIR 16:56
cotto_work That commit goes a long way to clarify why allison++ is against a uninstall target. 16:57
benabik Uninstall belongs to package managers.
cotto_work +1
benabik Even if your package manager is just stow++
When I was going through Linux From Scratch, I used xstow as my package manager. That experience taught me a lot. Mostly it taught me that I don't want to do that again. 17:01
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atrodo benabik> I had a similar experience, minus stow. Makes me want to use Gobo 17:09
benabik atrodo: Gobo reminds me a lot of the way OS X handles things. 17:10
atrodo benabik> Aye, which is what appeals to me 17:11
somewhere in my LFS experience, I discovered how fragile installing software on unix is. Programs don't like being relocated 17:12
benabik wonders if Rootless GoboLinux would make a decent replacement for fink on my next install.
atrodo benabik> I had a plan to install gobo on my server running lfs, but they havn't released in 3 years which is a tough pill to swallow 17:14
benabik atrodo: Ew. System looks nice, but being that out of date isn't. 17:15
atrodo benabik> Exactly
benabik whiteknight: Isn't quite so simple. Current line annotations in NQP are generated by POST::Compiler and the PAST tree doesn't currently hold a file name. Will investigate deeper.
On the plus side, if I fix this for NQP, it'll be fixed for all future users of PCT. 17:18
TimToady benabik: packages are mutable in P6, but almost nothing relies on packages anymore; functions are all lexical, and methods are all off in the metaobject. 17:21
and there are strict guarantees about being able to nail down some of the loose things at CHECK time 17:22
unless they've specifically been declared to be loose permanently
moritz benabik: ah, *that* is why some few error messages in rakudo have the line number, but not the file name
benabik moritz: Yes. PCT::HLLCompiler stashes the file name(s) in a lexical $?FILES, but only variable declaration errors does anything with it. 17:23
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benabik I'll look into this later today. I should grab lunch and stop by school to deal with paperwork for my assistantship next year. 17:27
Looks like this will involve changes to PCT, but not NQP-rx, so updating our nqp-rx snapshot shouldn't be held up on it. 17:28
benabik assigns the TODO to himeself.
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pmichaud 15:56 <benabik> moritz: Well, you could still lift a lot of fetches into a single register at block entry. 17:35
No, YOU CANNOT. 17:36
pmichaud always has to have this discussion.
oh, he left.
moritz pmichaud: jnthn__ mentioned re-binding in the backlog 17:37
pmichaud yes, I see that now. I skimmed through looking for it but didn't see it. jnthn++
I probably shouldn't let it bother me, but it seems that _everyone_ looks at the code and says "oh, how inefficient" and then blames PCT. It's Parrot's model that is broken. 17:38
pmichaud goes back to hacking list iterators. 17:40
lucian heh, it took me this long to realise that all literals get interned, in any compiler 17:48
Tene pmichaud: Hah. I remember when I asked you about that. :) 17:49
whiteknight I don't think PCT is the problem. It's a symptom of the problem, but nobody's working to fix the underlying issues 17:51
I've said before, several times, that if somebody came up with a good design for a solution I would help implement it. I don't understand the problems enough myself to design it 17:52
pmichaud whiteknight: I think it requires some fundamental Parrot architectural changes.
whiteknight right. What changes? 17:53
lucian allison: ping
whiteknight This is one of those areas where I don't even know what I don't know
brb, irc client fail. 17:55
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whiteknight would love to hear an explanation about how, in less than a days worth of light browsing, firefox sucks up more than a gig of ram 17:56
or why, after closing firefox, that memory isn't immediately freed
cotto_work trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/WhyDoes...icientCode
whiteknight I don't think I 17:57
've ever seen that page
cotto_work I've put it on my M0 todo list to make sure that M0 will support something sane, even if it also has to support PIR. 17:58
lucian whiteknight: the firefox process doesn't always die with the closing of firefox
whiteknight If PIR is going to continue to serve as some for of middle language, we need to fix it eventually 17:59
and if what I'm reading is all still right, we need fixes to vtables to differentiate between set_ and assign_ (a difference the PIR syntax sugar seems to obscure more than anything), fix lexpads, and do other stuff 18:00
lucian cotto_work: heh, coincidentally that's annoying me as well 18:02
(the lack of a clear bind)
i'm working around it by replacing all lexicals with hashes ...
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cotto_work pmichaud: what's a system that gets lvalue and assignment semantics right? 18:10
pmichaud cotto_work: I don't know of one. I just know Parrot's model isn't workable for P6 (more)
we also know that it's not workable for languages in general, if everyone looks at the PCT output and says "how inefficient", because PCT is definitely p6-agnostic. 18:11
one of the fundamentally broken things is the assumption that you can fetch a lexical once at the beginning of a Sub and "know" that you can rely on that register being accurate for the remainder of the sub. 18:12
because "store_lex" completely invalidates that.
so, Parrot either needs an instruction set whereby you can say "tie this register to this lexical slot even if it gets rebound", or we need to face the fact that we'll be doing lexical fetches every time we need to access a lexical (and we need to optimize Parrot to make that efficient) 18:13
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pmichaud more generally, I suspect a bit part of the problem is that there's no mechanism for referencing a slot at all 18:15
*big
it's like a language where you're allowed to have a pointer (a PMC register), but not a pointer-to-a-pointer
Rakudo master "resolves" this difficulty by creating a PMC that can reference another PMC, but that's an awful heavyweight way to implement references. 18:16
another way to think of it -- there's no way that I know of to pass a hash or array slot by reference 18:17
atrodo pmichaud> Interesting. I hadn't thought of that 18:18
pmichaud if there were, then lexical pads and a ton of things would become easy
this gets complicated even further by the fact that we have different opcodes depending on the type of slot you want to deal with 18:19
if you want to change the slot of a hash, that's "set"
cotto_work pmichaud: so that primitive concept that needs to be supported is passing a hash (or any PMC) by reference?
pmichaud not the Hash, but the elements of the Hash 18:20
I can already pass a Hash by reference, that's easy.
but there's not a way for me to pass hash['key'] by reference
so if you want to change the slot of a hash, that's "set"
but ifyou want to change the slot of a lexpad, that's "store_lex"
whiteknight pmichaud: and what if hash['key'] is set to a different PMC altogether. Does the reference continue to point to the old value or the new value?
pmichaud if you want to change the slot of a namespace, that's one of "set_global", "set_hll_global", or "set_root_global" 18:21
if you want to change the value of a PMC, that's "assign"
(*sigh*)
lucian i find parrot passing of everything a bit confusing 18:22
pmichaud whiteknight: the point of a reference is that it's one level up from the thing it's referencing
whiteknight right, but is it referencing the container, or the value?
pmichaud so, if you have a reference to hash['key'], and hash['key'] is rebound, the reference should reflect that
just like if I have
whiteknight okay, so you're talking about a container reference
conceptually that's not so hard. A reference like that would contain the aggregate and the key. It's a simple pair, with a lot of hand-wavey passthrough logic 18:23
pmichaud that's the expensive way to do it, I think
whiteknight you think there's a cheaper way? 18:24
pmichaud easier would be to have a new register type that represents a reference-to-a-register
whiteknight but that's still only registers then. Doesn't cover hashes, lexpads, or namespaces
pmichaud or, more directly, reference-to-a-PMC-slot
it does cover hashes/lexpads/namespaces since those contain PMC slots
whiteknight that doesn't work with GC. We need a pointer to the parent aggregate, so the GC doesn't scoop it up from under us
if GC collects the hash, and we have a pointer into it's guts, we end up with a dangerous dangling pointer 18:25
NotFound Sometines I think that people just wants references but denying they are. A bit like java not having pointers but having null pointer exception.
whiteknight that's why it doesn't cover hashes and lexpads et al
pmichaud whiteknight: thinking
cheaper would then be aggregate + slot, then.
whiteknight now if we had a register type that was a (PMC*, PMC**) pair, that work work
pmichaud aggregate to prevent gc 18:26
right
whiteknight s/work work/would work/
NotFound An iterator is a bit like that.
whiteknight okay, so that is not unreasonable or difficult to implement. The bigger issue is setting up an opset that works with the new register set
and then deprecating old ops like the shitty namespace ops, get/set_lex, and whatever else that isn't using reference registers 18:27
pmichaud set $Q1, aggregate[key] # gets most of the cases
might need to be setq or something like that
lucian NotFound: i would very much prefer references to what parrot has, if i understand it correctly
whiteknight pmichaud: and an op set $P1, $Q1 18:28
to get the actual value out of the reference
unless we expect Q registers to be used transparently wherever a P register is used, which will require a massive retooling of the enter opset
pmichaud sure, that works. or let opcodes .... right
whiteknight entire
NotFound lucian: I don't worry about the name, but about how the thing will work.
whiteknight but I'm still not sure that solves the problem. Because then we just replace all find_lex calls with set_p_q calls 18:29
pmichaud it's not a huge retooling -- just lots more opcode variants for all of the existing PMC ones
whiteknight but don't reduce our need to constantly fetch
NotFound I just worry about wrong names confusing ideas.
pmichaud but the fetch becomes much cheaper and more uniform
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pmichaud fetch_lex is pretty expensive at the moment 18:29
for one, it involves a hash+key lookup 18:30
then you have to search a bunch of hashes
lucian NotFound: i meant a pervasive use of references. i don't like things being copied implicitly
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pmichaud set_p_q would be vastly less expensive 18:30
lucian NotFound: i may just be very confused 18:31
pmichaud also, it means that compiler (toolkits) only have to deal with one set of opcodes for rebinding, instead of the multitude we have now
whiteknight pmichaud: besides making the individual operations less expensive, is there a way to reduce the algorithmic complexity of the system?
that is, do fewer stores and fewer lookups 18:32
pmichaud you can if your HLL lets you make simplifying assumptions that enable that to happen
but so far we haven't run into many HLLs that do that.
whiteknight if, instead of a new Q register set, we have a ProxyReference which is that same root/valueptr pair but with vtables that all pass through directly to the target, that wouldn't be good? 18:33
pmichaud that's what Rakudo does now
whiteknight and that's no good?
pmichaud in the case of a Hash data structure, you double the number of PMCs involved
same for an Array
because each element ends up being a ProxyReference to the ultimate value
so, in Rakudo, if I have an Array of 1000 elements, that actually requires (at least) 2000 PMCs 18:34
whiteknight always? You're always creating a proxy for every one?
pmichaud have to
otherwise we can't support binding and assignment semantics
otherwise we can't pass @a[3] by reference.
atrodo pmichaud> So would a Q holds a aggregate/key pair? Or a pointer to the slot of an aggregate? 18:35
lucian pmichaud: hmm, i might have to do that for python
pmichaud atrodo: latest thinking is aggregate/slot pair (due to GC, as whiteknight++ correctly notes) 18:36
you don't want to search for a key each time
atrodo pmichaud> What about when a hash does a resize? does that invalidate the slot?
whiteknight we're still talking "same basic architecture, just slightly faster implementation"
pmichaud also, shift/unshift might mean that the keys move
whiteknight: we're talking same basic architecture *as rakudo*, perhaps. Parrot doesn't support anything like a ProxyReference PMC (more) 18:37
the other thing we discovered with any sort of ProxyReference is that the vtables get very nasty when you're trying to distinguish between the Proxy and the underlying Object
i.e., can the Reference have methods that are separate from the PMC it references?
whiteknight I would say, "no"
otherwise you lose perfect transparency 18:38
atrodo I would say yes
pmichaud the point of having the Reference is that at least some operations have to be different
i.e., you have to be able to distinguish "change the reference" from "change the thing it references"
you also have to be able to ask "is this a reference" in some instances, to know what sort of thing you got. 18:39
whiteknight and what about the shift/unshift case? How can we possibly square that?
let the references change what they're pointing at without notice?
pmichaud good question. that argues more for a proxyreference sort of approach, yes.
whiteknight or do we have to change all our array types to linked list?
18:40 benabik joined
whiteknight Or, re-do shift/unshift to make arrays more like sliding windows 18:41
atrodo whiteknight> So that question basically is how do you make sure you're refering to the same key?
whiteknight atrodo: how to make sure you're referencing the same value, if the value hasn't moved (only the aggregate has changed)
I get the impression that there isn't going to be a "best" solution here 18:42
atrodo whiteknight> you do know what value you're pointing to, you already know what pmc it's talking about. but the aggregate may have changed to make the key point to another slot 18:43
pmichaud right now the "best" solution is pretty close to what PCT does... if we can make it easier/faster to do aggregate fetches and stores
atrodo at least, that's the way i'm reading it
pmichaud in november 2009 we proposed the fetch/vivify opcodes as a way of cleaning up the output (and making fetch/store look more uniform), but I never got a chance to update PCT to try to use those. 18:44
benabik backlogs.
whiteknight pmichaud: okay, so a Q register set and some ops to fetch/set to them? That's a huge change in itself
doesn't look like it, but it is
pmichaud no, fetch/vivify doesn't involve Q registers 18:45
whiteknight I assume we want the ability to pass Q values through PCC?
pmichaud iirc, they were $P0 = fetch aggregate, key, default
and
whiteknight right, I'm not talking about those
I'm just wrapping my head around Q
and figuring out what we need to do for Q
pmichaud note that I haven't thought it through either
whiteknight okay 18:46
benabik likes that his off-hand optimization comment has sparked a conversation on making lexpads less sucky.
pmichaud also, since Rakudo and NQP now have their own storage models altogether, it's not likely that we'd be making use of Q registers anyway, at least not for a long while
whiteknight alternative might be to break PMCs up. Pass all PMCs as PMC**
that extra decoupling might actually help with a copying GC in the future 18:47
lucian whiteknight: i think i'd very much like that
pmichaud passing PMC as PMC** might be interesting, yes.
that opens up some interesting opcode possibilities.
whiteknight pmichaud: well, I'd much rather spend energy doing something Rakudo will make use of
lucian not necessarily break them up, just always pass them by pointer/reference
atrodo whiteknight> Or decouple the pmc header from the pmc data?
whiteknight atrodo: they're already decoupled, in a way 18:48
maybe we need to repartition
pmichaud whiteknight: right, I've been in the same boat for some time -- I haven't really pushed on doing much with Parrot's binding semantics because I don't know that Rakudo will end up using it anyway.
atrodo whiteknight> How so?
pmichaud so my energy has been on figuring out how to get them to work in Rakudo and NQP, and then maybe someday Parrot can borrow from that :)
whiteknight atrodo: There's a PMC header struct, and each type has its own attributes struct 18:49
benabik pmichaud: +1 for stealing back from 6model/NQP/Parrot
whiteknight atrodo: so to get the length of an array, for instance, it would be p->data->length
pmichaud benabik: alas, we've had variants of this conversation many times over the years, although I will admit this is the first time that there's been a lot of well-reasoned discussion about it :)
whiteknight the problem is that the vtable pointer is on p also, not on p->data.
benabik */Rakudo, not from outselves.
pmichaud anyway, I have to get back to another pressing task -- I'll backscroll later 18:50
whiteknight pmichaud: okay, thanks for the discussion. Maybe I'll try to write some of this up
pmichaud oh, there's one other possibility 18:51
benabik At any rate, even if Rakudo can't use them, I'd like to have the fetch lifting available as an optimization pass. It feels like NQP might be able to use it. I never wanted to bake such things directly into PCT.
pmichaud benabik: see my notes earlier about that not being a valid optimization 18:52
atrodo whiteknight> Is there an .c or .h I can look at? My impression until now was that a pmc was one variable sized struct
benabik pmichaud: Shouldn't it be valid as long as you don't leave the sub? It could become invalid after every call, I understand. And if we have a multi-threaded system, it could become invalid, but in that case it could become invalid between the fetch and use already anyway. 18:54
pmichaud anyway, another possibility for lexicals would be if there's a way to tie registers to outer lexpad slots, similar to how .lex ties registers now.
NotFound The winxed model is to make it optional: you can avoid the fetchs, but at the cost of knowing what you are doing and never rebind the involved vars.
pmichaud benabik: how do you know that you haven't "left the sub"? 18:55
benabik pmichaud: vtables, right
NotFound And when not, set it as 'volatile'
pmichaud you mean, haven't performed any subroutine calls or method calls? or operations involving vtables?
even in NQP, when I do:
benabik pmichaud: I meant calls. vtables changing lexicals seems like a bad idea.
pmichaud $a := $a + 1 18:56
that's doing a store_lex and changing the contents
in other words:
$P2 = find_lex '$a'
...
$N0 = $P2
$N1 = add $N0, 1
$P3 = box $N1 18:57
store_lex '$a', $P3
# $P2 no longer valid
# $P2 still points to the original value for $a
18:57 dmalcolm left
benabik pmichaud: Yes, but I would expect such an optimization pass to try to point all accesses to a lexical to the same register. Otherwise things like that would happen. 18:57
pmichaud benabik: what about nested blocks? 18:58
my $a := 1;
if foo() {
my $b;
$a := $a + 1;
}
benabik pmichaud: Those get compiled as separate subs, and I've already noted that lexicals become invalid across calls.
pmichaud so, it's an optimization that is rarely useful.
sorear the sensible thing to do here is to say that store_lex actually changes $P2, since the lexinfo maps strings to register numbers 18:59
pmichaud that means that $P2 has to be magical somehow
sorear what do you mean? 19:00
oh, I mean .lex creates the association
not fetch_lex
pmichaud that already happens
but that doesn't help in blocks where the lexical wasn't declared
benabik pmichaud: Possibly. But I'd like to _try_ to explore optimization passes. Perhaps I'll write a pass and discover it's useless. C'est la vie.
pmichaud: But would help them where it was. And since much of my variable access is limited to the sub where it's declared that would help. 19:01
moritz you can always look for subs that are inner subs of the current
sorear pmichaud: then we need a fetch_lex_fast_p_ic_ic opcode, which uses "# of outer pointers", "lexical number" arguments, and a store counterpart
pmichaud: requires a small amount of imcc magic to rewrite the arguments in register allocation
moritz and don't optimize if they find_lex with that name
pmichaud moritz: what about dynamically attached inner subs, such as eval? 19:02
moritz lols about "small amount of imcc magic"
pmichaud: those hurt
pmichaud eval("$a = $a + 1") completely hoses that optimization
NotFound I think we need less imcc magic, not more. 19:03
sorear Alternatively we could add a pragma to disable the IMCC register allocator, now that PAST::Compiler is doing most of the same job 19:05
pmichaud I think the IMCC register allocator is already just a linear allocator, although I could be wrong about that.
sorear note: currently PAST::Compiler likes to generate register numbers like $P2000, with the IMCC register allocation disabled that would have to be fixed
pmichaud I thought the register analysis stuff was disabled long ago. 19:06
(in imcc)
NotFound Allocation not neccesarily the same as aliasing numbers.
sorear pmichaud: the issue is that IMCC's register allocation processes make it impossible for PAST::Compiler to spit out the correct low-level register numbers for fetch_lex_fast
so either IMCC needs to take up the task, or the register allocation needs to be disabled 19:07
pmichaud cheaper and more reliable would simply be that fetch_lex optimizes the fetch for later passes of the same fetch in the same call frame
instead of alway searching the outer frame.
*always *outer frames
NotFound Syntax != magic. Just provide clean syntax for whatever you want imcc to do.
pmichaud so then $P2 = fetch_lex '$a' # slow the first time, we have to determine the outer frame and register offsets 19:08
benabik We could have a find_lex opcode that returns some kind of reference than fetch_lex_fast can use.
pmichaud ....
$P2 = fetch_lex '$a' # fast this time -- the local call frame already knows where to find it
benabik Caching in the call would also work and possibly be smarter.
*call frame
pmichaud and it can be done by changing the LexPad structure instead of the opcode set 19:09
NotFound At least for me, magic is when imcc does something without a clear reason and you must navigate compilers/imcc to know what and maybe why.
whiteknight atrodo: src/pmc.c is probably the best. Look for Parrot_pmc_new and it's ilk 19:10
atrodo: it allocates a PMC header, looks up in the vtable for what the attributes struct size is, then allocates that separately
atrodo whiteknight> I actually found it in pobj.h 19:11
lucian NotFound: i also dislike calling any abstraction magic
whiteknight atrodo: that's cool tood
too
pmichaud anyway, othertasks call -- bbl
NotFound For example, for me .const 'Sub' is black magic, mostly because is not a const at all.
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NotFound lucian: any sufficiently badly written abstraction is indistinguishable from magic. 19:12
klavs Hello, everyone! I'm back. 19:13
lucian NotFound: heh
19:13 lucian left
NotFound And depending on its (lack of) documentation, it can be arcane magic. 19:13
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atrodo whiteknight> so it looks like PMCs would point to this fairly thin struct. so what's the issue with having a compacting gc? 19:16
whiteknight> couldn't we compact the data pointer if the only pointing to it is this PMC struct?
compact the address space pointed to by the data pointers 19:17
whiteknight atrodo: well, it's not just a matter of compacting the data structs. We could definitely do that. But we would also want to be compacting the PMC header as well
and like I said, I want to squash them. We don't need two structs there, it should only be one allocation
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NotFound whiteknight: for auto_attrs it may be doable but what about manual_attrs? 19:19
whiteknight NotFound: how many PMCs need manual_attrs? 19:20
benabik whiteknight: If the PMC header is a fixed size and the data isn't, we can compact the data and just use a fixed size allocator for the headers. Being reasonably smart about fixed sized allocations can really keep allocations tight. (IIRC)
NotFound whiteknight: no idea.
whiteknight benabik: well, all those allocations are fixed size, and we used fixed-size allocators for all of them
benabik whiteknight: The data portion of a PMC is always the same size?
whiteknight benabik: the attributes struct is 19:21
NotFound Also, take into account that that may mean definitely banning morphing.
whiteknight NotFound: yes. ban in-place morphing
it's a mess of a semantic now anyway
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NotFound I don't have any problem with that, but other may do. 19:22
whiteknight very few types use VTABLE_morph, and of those, some don't use it correctly anway. Parrot_pmc_reuse is dreadfully buggy. Never has worked, might never work right
NotFound Then I suggest to start by deprecating it. 19:23
benabik File annotation is `.annotate "file", "FILENAME"`, right?
whiteknight benabik: Yes, I think so
Coke NotFound: replacing it with what? 19:25
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Coke (given that several HLLs use morph) 19:26
lucian Coke: what for?
Coke ... morphing.
when you have a PMC that changes types, e.g. from a string to a numeric. 19:27
(or in tcl's case, from a list to a string. or a dictionary).
sorear pmichaud: I had a new idea
benabik Annotations are only valid inside .subs?
Coke Definitely other ways to do it, but we've been using morph for... like 9 years.
pmichaud "morph" is how HLLs get around the fact that Parrot doesn't have a proper assign opcode for assigning to a container 19:28
sorear pmichaud: fetch_lex_fast_p_ic packs the outer frame index and register number into a single INTVAL (limiting to, say, 16K frame nesting, 64K registers of 4 types)
pmichaud .const 'Sub' foo = 'foo' isn't const? 19:29
sorear pmichaud: fetch_lex_p_sc 1. does the lookup 2. if the lookup resulted in an alias to a specific register (and indexes are small enough), rewrites the in-memory code segment to use fetch_lex_fast_p_ic
NotFound pmichaud: it creates a foo variable and assign to it the 'real' const, 19:30
pmichaud NotFound: a foo register?
NotFound pmichaud: yeah
whiteknight parrot has a problem, people rely on a hackjob workaround. Now parrot has two problems
that's not the way anything gets fixed
NotFound The doc doesn't say that, but the doc lies.
whiteknight and if morph has been around for 9 years, that proves the point
use morph, and you're never going to get around to fixing the problem that necessitated morph in the first place, and you're never going to fix the problems morph causes 19:31
pmichaud who is the 'you' here? ;-) 19:32
the hll implementor?
sorear parrot was originally designed to run Perl 5, you cannot make Perl 5 work sensisbly without morph because it has morph as a user-exposed operation
at best you could have all Perl 5 datums be a single PMC type 19:33
pmichaud I think most hll implementors use 'morph' because parrot doesn't provide an alternative. at that point the choice is either "stop working" or "use the morph workaround". Option 3 ("change parrot") isn't something hll implementors have had much success in achieving. 19:34
s/"stop working"/"stop development"/
NotFound That was my concern. We can't make plans under the assumption that we can get rid of morph, and asuming we'll have morph forever at the same time. 19:35
At some point, we must choose.
pmichaud fwiw, neither rakudo nor nqp-rx nor nqp use 'morph' these days. I haven't used 'morph' since alpha.
(we do use 'copy' in rakudo/master, however, which was the suggested replacement for 'morph') 19:36
jnthn__ new-nqp and nom, afaik, don't use copy.
benabik Guh. More PIR magic syntax. What is "$P0 .= $P1"? 19:38
concat? 19:39
Coke I'm not saying never get rid of it, just treat it like any other deprecation.
and certainly, if it makes parrot better, kill partcl. (no, seriously)
benabik: ye 19:42
benabik I really don't mind some of PIR's syntactic sugar, but I keep finding new bits.
Coke NotFound, pmichaud: hah. apparently morph is no longer used in partcl-old. 19:43
pmichaud Coke will probably shoot me, but I'm thinking of trying to migrate partcl-new to nqp (new) :-)
Coke looks like someone (probably me) switched us over to copy already.
pmichaud: there's a test suite. go right ahead! 19:44
pmichaud won't happen this week, though. :)
okay, I _really_ need to get back to my otherstuff now. Closing irc window.
bbl
Coke tta
NotFound Coke: I'm not completely surprised, is not the first time a feature assumed as important is found unused. 19:46
whiteknight that's the thing right there. I don't think morph is working well enough for people to be relying on it much anyway 19:53
I mean, I know it's broken in a lot of non-trivial cases
NotFound I usually assume that nobody uses it except maybe for internal-only vars. 19:54
whiteknight partcl does still rely on some behaviors which use Parrot_pmc_reuse internally. At least, I know partcl-old does. That's a problem but not as big of one
benabik If I fix a TODO should I just push it or put it on the ticket for discussion first?
whiteknight CallContext uses morph to reset itself. It doesn't morph anything
benabik whiteknight: File annotations: github.com/Benabik/parrot/commit/6afb0ae 19:55
NotFound whiteknight: but that is kind of a hack, can be done by other means, isn't it?
whiteknight NotFound: yeah, of course it's a hack. We'd be better off deleting morph and adding a VTABLE_user_defined_1() 19:56
or something like that
which, by the way, I'm not against
it's not pretty, but at least it isn't a blatant lie 19:57
if we're going to lie, damnit let's not be blatant about it!
NotFound We can't lie, Pafo doesn't have a PR section yet. 19:59
whiteknight if we get passed the idea that a single PMC can change itself in-place, we can fix a lot of stuff. Having a proxy/reference PMC type around may not be the most economical alternative on large scales, but it should be good enough for most current HLL uses 20:01
I could probably fix a hell of a lot of usages in partcl with Rosella.Proxy
or, we could add a proxy type directly to the parrot repo for more performance win 20:02
benabik Isn't there a PMCProxy already?
whiteknight benabik: different type of thing
it's not really a proxy
benabik Of course.
sorear PMCProxy needs to be set on fire
whiteknight PMCProxy should be renamed "BuiltinClass" 20:03
or BuiltinType
or, fire. Like sorear said
hopefully 6model and/or lorito will get us there
I suspect strongly that a 6model repr designed for built-in C types will fix the problem for us 20:04
or, just rewriting a lot of built-in types in PIR/Winxed/NQP
NotFound Talking a bit more short-term... What is the appropiate place for winxed-on-parrot tests? t/compilers ? 20:08
benabik NotFound: I would think ext/winxed/t
whiteknight NotFound: yes, I think so 20:09
NotFound benabik: that was my first idea, but is not consistent with the current usages.
whiteknight do we have any NQP tests in the repo?
or t/ext/winxed/ 20:10
benabik There are some NQP tests in ext/nqp-rx/t
whiteknight okay, copy that for winxed
benabik Although, I think that's a subset of the tests from nqp-rx.git
NotFound I just want to test that load language works and a minimal program compiles right. 20:11
benabik I would think a new t/ext directory would be the best match for tests not from the source, now that I look at it.
compilers/ appears to be a directory full of compilers in-core.
NotFound I think t/ext/ is the way to go. 20:13
whiteknight t/compilers is probably just for stuff in /compilers/ 20:15
lucian whiteknight: would interning all "reference" pmcs into one be possible/useful? 20:19
something like ooc's covers
whiteknight i don't know
lucian actually, just forcing them to only contain a reference should be enough
they'd share the same header/vtable/w/e 20:20
since proxy pmcs would be considered wasteful
whiteknight the tricky bit of all this is the GC 20:21
benabik Have to head out soon. Should I push my file annotation patch now, or should I let it sit for a bit so people can look at it?
whiteknight we can create a million fun types of reference if we don't care about GC
benabik: easier to ask forgiveness than permission
shoot to kill 20:22
lucian whiteknight: i was thinking of a single reference type
just a fat pointer
dalek rrot: 6afb0ae | benabik++ | compilers/pct/src/POST/Compiler.pir:
[pct] Add file annotations to generated PIR

This allows all users of PCT::HLLCompiler to keep knowledge of the source file in the final result.
Closes TT #2132		 20:23
benabik Woo, I closed a ticket.
20:23 dodathome left
whiteknight lucian: maybe 20:23
dalek 0: dccffa6 | klavs++ | dm0.c:
now supports labels and argumrnt formating
 20:24
0: fe03456 | klavs++ | item.c:
new function HasItem()
0: d5108c8 | klavs++ | consts.inc:
updated convert_x_x
lucian whiteknight: reading the conversation earlier, it seems i'll have a lot of overheard i hadn't thought of in puffin 20:25
dalek TT #2132 closed by benabik++: NQP-rx does not use "file" annotations
TT #2132: trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/2132
whiteknight lucian: start small. Get the basics working before you start on crazy stuff like references
lucian whiteknight: well, you see, everything in python is a reference 20:26
of course, i have to figure out scoping (namespaces) first
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lucian whiteknight: more precisely, there is no assignment, just binding names to objects (by referencing them) 20:26
whiteknight okay, so a big hash somewhere? 20:27
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lucian well, yeah 20:32
that's likely what i'll have to do
a globals hash and a locals hash
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lucian but re-binding is tricky, i think parrot's default semantics don't match 20:33
whiteknight would a reference pmc type like what rakudo uses be helpful to you? 20:34
we could easily add that to parrot, even if just as a dynpmc for the time being 20:35
actually, i have to pack up and go. Talk to you later
20:35 whiteknight left
NotFound Winxed just hides the problem by not providing yet any native global vars. If you want them, you must use the get/set_..global family in your own way. 20:36
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lucian NotFound: hmm. set/get_..global semantics are most definately wrong for python 21:16
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NotFound lucian: it was a generic comment, not about python in particular. 21:35
lucian NotFound: i know
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whiteknight my mouse is completely crapped up 22:48
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soh_cah_toa what does a definition that looks like "const char *foo()" do? i've seen the const qualifer used in declarations and function parameters but not ever as a return value 23:06
i can't seem to find anything on the internet about it. "const functions" gives me nothing but c++ member functions
cotto_work soh_cah_toa: where do you see that? 23:07
soh_cah_toa cotto_work: in src/debug.c around line 900 in the definition of get_cmd() 23:08
23:10 jjore joined 23:11 whiteknight joined
whiteknight ubuntu fail 23:11
soh_cah_toa whiteknight: oh yay, you're back. i have a question... 23:12
whiteknight: what does a definition that looks like "const char *foo()" do? i've seen the const qualifer used in declarations and function parameters but not ever as a return value
23:13 bubaflub joined
whiteknight means the function returns a const char * 23:13
cotto_work That just means that the thing it returns shouldn't be modified.
soh_cah_toa oh. i didn't realize you could specify that behavior for returns values 23:14
i thought it was only for declarations
whiteknight technically, that is a declaration
you're declaring a const char *, which is gotten from a function
soh_cah_toa really? that's how the compiler treats it? 23:15
whiteknight sortof
you can put a call to that function anywhere you can put a const char * 23:16
so you are declaring that whole thing as having that type
soh_cah_toa ahhh...right. i could put it in an expression 23:17
whiteknight I hate updating software and having some fundamental piece of hardware stop working 23:19
I've been using this touchpad with ubuntu for years, since 8.04, maybe earlier 23:20
and today, bam. Stops working
soh_cah_toa uh, yeah. me too
i just upgraded my laptop from fedora 13 to 14. now selinux stops my nic from working
cotto_work selinux is great if you're the nsa 23:21
whiteknight that's the only thing I don't like about linux. Hardware support is shit terrible
and I know it's not the fault of the linux devs
soh_cah_toa i know... :(
whiteknight but still, it's hard to use a system that's this unstable. I certainly can't recommend it out to people as I wish I could
soh_cah_toa the one thing i hate about linux is poor flash support 23:22
whiteknight "Linux is free and it's awesome, but every now and again the mouse stops working, or the screen stops working, and there are no obvious ways to fix it"
hardly a convincing sales pitch
cotto_work soh_cah_toa: s/linux/adobe/ 23:23
soh_cah_toa hmmmm....
whiteknight I don't use flash, so it's not a big deal for me
soh_cah_toa cotto_work: yeah, you're right 23:24
whiteknight: that's impossible. you watch no videos?
whiteknight nopes
soh_cah_toa cotto_work: b/c adobe has is closed source
whiteknight: alrighty then 23:25
cotto_work soh_cah_toa: youtube html5 works quite nicely with chrome. I haven't tried it with firefox.
soh_cah_toa bleh...chrome
cotto_work for videos that are converted
+1, but it's better than flash
at least it's wacky open source rather than closed
soh_cah_toa i know 23:26
i have to say, flash plugins are the ONLY piece of proprietary software i use. i caved in. gnash is just too much of a pain 23:27
whiteknight And I keep thinking to myself, "if this is what I get with Ubuntu, which is supposed to be one of the most usable linux distros, I shudder to think what other distros are like" 23:29
bubaflub ping plobsing 23:46
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mikehh I dunno about Flash plugins with Ubuntu, I find it works in the i396 version, but not on amd64 23:55
i386 23:56
soh_cah_toa that's the thing. sometimes yes, sometimes no
mikehh one of the reasons I use the 32 bit version is that some things work there that don't on the 64bit version 23:58
soh_cah_toa same here 23:59
mikehh at least the pae kernel allows me to access more that 4GB

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