#parrot Parrot 0.6.1 "Bird of Paradise" Released | parrotcode.org
Set by moderator on 22 April 2008.
cotto_home rillian, thanks 00:24
that looks like the talk I attended
(separate from lugradio live) 00:25
particle skids: you're much more likely to get perl 6 questions answered in #perl6 on freenode 00:27
skids problem is most of my questions are really aimed at getting an idea of what is going on behind the scenes, so it ends up with a pugs-centric answer. 00:28
Infinoid and my problem is, I'm usually on floor 3 or 4 of the parrot building, and I rarely take the elevator up to floor 10 (rakudo) 01:03
particle third floor: cage cleaners, bytecode emitters, test files. going up! 01:05
01:06 kid51 joined
Infinoid to get to the GC in the basement, you have to take the stairs. 01:09
particle :D
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japhb When does work on the GSOC stuff begin? June? 03:21
03:32 AndyA joined
cotto_home code.google.com/opensource/gsoc/200...1_timeline 03:52
shorten cotto_home's url is at xrl.us/bispn
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dalek r27152 | pmichaud++ | trunk: 03:55
: [docs]:
: * Fix pod error in LANGUAGES_STATUS.pod .
diff: www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27152
Infinoid Community Bonding Period. 04:08
Infinoid bonds with dalek
pmichaud bonds with cyanoacrylate 04:11
cotto_home group hug 04:12
I'm a little surprised purl didn't have a response for that. 04:16
Infinoid you sound like a volunteer to add one :) 04:18
cotto_home I'm trying to think of something fitting. 04:20
dalek r27153 | pmichaud++ | trunk: 04:40
: [core]:
: * Remove user stack opcodes (RT#52842)
: (save, restore, lookback, entrytype, depth, rotate_up)
: * Update NEWS
: * There is still dead code and structures to be removed -- this
: just eliminates the opcodes.
diff: www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27153
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dalek r27154 | pmichaud++ | trunk: 05:14
: [core]: dead code removal - PDB_print_user_stack()
diff: www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27154
r27155 | pmichaud++ | trunk: 05:40
: [core]:
: * Remove what's left of the user stack.
diff: www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27155
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dalek r27156 | coke++ | trunk: 11:55
: [docs]
: Remove deleted items from the list of deprecation notices.
: Note in the NEWS file that some of these were removed ahead of schedule.
diff: www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27156
12:13 Zaba_ joined
Coke group hug is <reply>get off me! 12:15
nopaste "dakkar" at 85.45.142.2 pasted "trying classes in rakudo" (20 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/12800 12:16
"dakkar" at 85.45.142.2 pasted "output from 12800" (10 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/12801 12:17
dakkar what am I doing wrong?
nopaste "dakkar" at 85.45.142.2 pasted "PIR for 12800" (164 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/12802 12:19
dakkar looks like the parameter to Bar::set does not get its value, and that assigning the resulting undef is a bad idea... 12:20
GeJ dakkar: shouldn't that be Line 11 method set(:$v) { $.x=$v } 12:32
?
dakkar uh
GeJ .o0(Just a guess, I don't have a rakudo near me) 12:33
dakkar no, that marks $v as an optional parameter
that's what I infer looking at the generated PIR
this is reminding me of the times I tried to understand what gcc was doing by looking at the assembly output :) 12:34
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Coke "remember that time you tried to drill a hole in your own head?" 14:17
jalbo Nast 14:22
Uh, sorry.
Tene I remember the time I tried to drill a hole in *your* head... 14:30
Coke ... clearly no ghostbusters afficionados. 14:33
Tene None, or one? 14:34
Coke ... pedant. 14:36
japhb I didn't get the Ghostbuster's reference. I just immediately thought of a Stargate episode involving trepanning. 14:37
Coke ... I am a rabid stargate fan and am trying to remember which episode this is. 14:39
... though I did miss season five.
japhb goes to look it up 14:40
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japhb Looks like season 3, episode "Demons": www.rdanderson.com/stargate/databas...tabas3.htm 14:41
Infinoid Stargate SG-1 is one of the things on my watch-queue. 14:51
jalbo en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Starg...1_episodes 14:55
japhb Ah, I see there is a release date for Stargate: Continuum. Cool. 14:57
Tene Hm. Looks like I'm not scheduled to teach the week of yapc::na. 15:28
I might even have the week off.
Now I have to actually consider going. 15:30
Coke dooooo it 15:32
Tene Is there a list of talks posted anywhere yet? 15:33
pmichaud Tene: I haven't seen one
Tene Hmm. I wonder if I could arrange to teach in Chicago the week before, and then just stay there.
pmichaud parrot hackathon on sat and sunday before the conference :-) 15:35
Tene Although, I could just get my employer to schedule my return flight to go to Chicago instead of SLC. 15:37
That's friday, though.
particle arrives friday night
pmichaud arrives saturday morning 15:38
Tene I also need to arrange for a place to stay.
particle everybody stays in the dorms
i don't know rates yet, but you can't book it anyway until next week
Tene Oh. 15:39
particle ~$40/night iirc
Tene Hm.
particle yapcchicago.org
Tene That should be possible.
particle the hackathon is in the dorms' common area 15:40
I found your resume online from awhile back. Please let me know if you’re and interested in a 6month config mgmt project in Brazil. 15:48
...tempting...
why on earth, in a south american city of 18M people, they're looking internationally, i have no idea 15:52
Coke arrives friday night, and is staying at the dorms, if they ever open up reg on that.
particle here's hoping 15:53
i'd like to get a block of rooms together, and near a common room, for us parrot hackers 15:55
pinged josh about it, but no response 15:56
pmichaud that would be great, yes
Coke I especially like the part where someone else handles that. =-) 15:59
particle my god, my soccer game *starts* at 9:15p tonight 16:12
anyone here use the kate editor? 16:14
particle wonders if there's a directive syntax for kate like vim and emacs
...similar to # vim: shiftwidth=4 expandtabs: 16:15
pmichaud my soccer scrimmage starts at 8:30p tonight 16:17
16:18 ambs joined
particle so, we'll start at about your halftime 16:18
er, no
pmichaud nope
I'll be home before you even start :-)
particle right
pmichaud afk # lunch 16:42
16:48 gryphon joined
particle can't decide if it's better as a tpf grant or microgrant 16:51
oops
16:58 dakkar joined
Tene conferences.mongueurs.net/yn2008/talks 17:08
dalek r27157 | fperrad++ | trunk:
: [crypto]
: - minor improvement
: Courtesy of Jim Keenan
diff: www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27157
Coke ponders how nice it would be to have an expansion for $Coda$ (along with the long awaited $Copyright$) 17:17
particle i'd settle for $Year$ 17:18
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particle since svn 1.1 i've been waiting 17:19
dalek r27158 | chromatic++ | trunk: 17:22
: [src] Tidied code; no functional changes.
diff: www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27158
r27159 | chromatic++ | trunk: 17:24
: [GC] Consolidated duplicate flag tests into a single path.
diff: www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27159
Coke particle: I think this last release was "close". 17:37
(to having that feature.) 17:44
particle so was 1.3. 17:45
svn--
Zaba hmm..
Tene Hmm... perhaps it's time for me to play with mod_parrot.
Zaba what will be the next parrot release? 0.6.2? 0.7?
particle zaba: depends on which features are implemented
we don't know the release number until near the release date
Zaba hm, I see. 17:46
particle releases are date-based, release numbers are feature-based
Tene Zaba: what release would you like it to be?
particle would like 1.5
Zaba Tene, I don't know how exactly they are numbered.. so I can't say.. 17:47
Tene purl: roadmap
purl roadmap is www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/p...00115.html
Tene purl: you lie!
purl Tene: huh?
particle there's a wiki page....
Zaba purl, that's for perl 5.10! 17:48
purl Zaba: huh?
Tene purl: parrot roadmap
purl Tene: excuse me?
particle www.perlfoundation.org/parrot/index...e_planning
Zaba Tene, I'll stick with trunk anyway :>
Tene pondering mod_lolcode 17:50
Zaba Tene, a good idea 17:51
(except I don't use apache)
particle thinks jhorwitz started mod_lolcode, and dropped it
you should ping him for his work so far 17:52
shouldn't be hard to do from scratch though, registry-style
Debolaz People who use apache for anything except maintaining legacy applications needs to be mutilated and killed. Not neccesarily in that order. Imho. :) 18:07
Zaba I run lighty on my server 18:08
since I need nothing but static content
Debolaz uses lighty for dynamic content as well. 18:09
jalbo I use HTTP::Daemon 18:10
Zaba Debolaz, it has some problems with cgi, for example checking for extension '.cgi' instead of executable bit
and well I don't need anything but static stuff anyway 18:11
Debolaz I mostly use FastCGI.
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PJMODOS e 18:40
Tene f
davidfetter heh 18:41
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itz I've found what appears to be an odd bug in perl6 18:48
pmichaud there are probably many of those :-)
Tene itz: details? 18:50
purl Where's the beef??
itz what was the paste url?
pmichaud nopaste?
purl i heard nopaste was at nopaste.snit.ch/ (ask TonyC for new channels) or rafb.net/paste or paste.husk.org/ or poundperl.pastebin.com/ or paste.scsys.co.uk/ or don't bother me while I'm eating
Tene purl: parrot roadmap is www.perlfoundation.org/parrot/index...e_planning 18:51
purl OK, Tene.
shorten Tene's url is at xrl.us/7nmt
itz nopaste.snit.ch/12804
18:52 sjansen joined
Tene purl: sjansen? 18:52
purl no idea, tene
sjansen is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma 18:54
pmichaud itz: does it simply output nothing, or ... ?
itz maximum recursion depth exceeded 18:58
Tene itz: can you nopaste the PIR dump?
pmichaud are you actually creating an object of type Foo and invoking .print() somewhere? 18:59
itz yeah should have put that in the original sorry
nopaste.snit.ch/paste
pmichaud it might be a problem of having a method named 'print'
itz sorry there is a missing line Foo.print(); 19:00
ah
pmichaud I think the print @foo.elems() line is acting as a recursive call
(whether it *should* act that way is something I'd need to check the synopses for) 19:01
Tene itz: run it with parrot perl6.pbc --target=pir foo.pl
and nopaste the output
dakkar is inheritance working in rakudo? 19:03
nopaste.snit.ch/12800 and nopaste.snit.ch/12801 and nopaste.snit.ch/12802 for reference
nopaste "Infinoid" at 96.238.213.50 pasted "error output and pir for itz's test script" (128 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/12806
pmichaud I think there may be a bug in the way that rakudo is currently handling attribute definitions 19:04
dakkar pmichaud: oh
pmichaud I'm not sure that "is Foo" is picking up the appropriate class object, especially since the way attributes are currently handled is creating a new class object for each attribute 19:05
itz nopaste.snit.ch/12807
pmichaud (i.e., I'm not sure the protoobject gets updated to a new instance.) It may be -- I haven't checked completely yet
itz: rakudo methods might be defaulting to "is export" 19:06
dakkar the "is Foo" maybe work, but what does not work (and I noticed just now) is that $x is made a *private* attribute
pmichaud has $.x always creates a private attribute
dakkar at least, that's what I read from the PIR (and I'm not sure I can read it correctly)
oh
with a public accessor method?
pmichaud yes
dakkar ok, so that part works as expected
nopaste.snit.ch/12802 at the end: that's the code that sets up my classes, right? 19:08
pmichaud yes
and in looking at it here, it appears that it is doing inheritance as I would expect
(not the actual code I would use, but good enough to produce what I think are correct results)
dakkar hmmm 19:09
Infinoid itz: so, it looks like the problem is that Foo.print() method is calling itself rather than the "print" builtin, right?
pmichaud dakkar: it's probably worthwhile to send this example to rakudobug 19:10
itz is there a way of calling the "print" builtin more explicit? 19:11
pmichaud itz: I don't know if it works yet, but one could conceivably do &*print
(i.e., grab the "global" print)
dakkar pmichaud: I'll do another couple of checks, then submit it as a bug 19:12
pmichaud dakkar: that would be great, thanks
Infinoid I think itz's bug might be a parrot namespace issue, rather than a rakudo one
comparing a standalone script's PIR to his test script's PIR, the op is the same
pmichaud Infinoid: I know that at one time Parrot would automatically stick methods into the namespace
Infinoid: then there was a time when it wouldn't, and I complained 19:13
Infinoid its just "print"($P15) in both cases
pmichaud there does need to be a way to create methods that don't automatically appear in the namespace. Last I checked that was parrot's default, but perhaps that default changed again. I don't know how/if it was resolved.
Infinoid &*print plays some weird games with get_hll_global. it seems to work, but it does require parens to be added to the test script too 19:14
pmichaud I think parens may be required when the & is used. I'd have to check STD.pm and the synopses for that 19:15
Infinoid so, &*print(@foo.elems()) is a valid workaround 19:16
and ... it prints newlines, despite being print() instead of say()
pmichaud: I'd gladly add a test for the namespace thing. any pointers on how to go about it? 19:18
pmichaud in pir? I'm not sure we ever resolved what the correct behavior would be. 19:19
Infinoid adds pdd21_namespaces.pod to his reading queue
pmichaud actually, I think the question is how the :method flag is being handled in Parrot 19:20
from S02: Unlike in Perl 5, the notation &foo merely stands for the foo function as a Code object without calling it. You may call any Code object with parens after it (which may, of course, contain arguments):
Infinoid that's getting into IMCC territory, right?
pmichaud Infinoid: yes.
Infinoid: anyway, I'd be curious to know how Parrot is working now 19:22
so, create a class, define a method in the class, then do a lookup of the method name in the class' namespace
if it returns PMCNULL, then :method isn't automatically placing the method into the namespace (good) 19:23
if it returns a Sub object, then :method is placing the method into the namespace
particle didn't we have some discussion about :method :anon ?
Infinoid it pretty obviously is being added to the namespace, based on my reading of nopaste.snit.ch/12806
pmichaud particle: discussion, yes; decision -- I don't remember
I remember advocating that :method :anon would be the standard mechanism for "method not in namespace" 19:24
Infinoid hmm. but the print method didn't get :anon
pmichaud however, we could also do that the default is method not in namespace, and :export puts it into the namespace
Infinoid: right -- I don't think rakudo has dealt with the issue of exporting (or not exporting) methods yet
particle rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=48631 19:25
Infinoid does there need to be a special syntax to differentiate methods from functions?
(or builtins, in this case)
pmichaud in PIR? We have one -- it's :method
particle right.
Infinoid so if I hack it to add :anon, this will suddenly work? :) 19:26
Coke this reminds me: did we ever have a decision on class methods other than "no, we don't have those" ?
particle pmichaud: as per that ticket, you requested that :method also be entered in the namespace. it is.
pmichaud Coke: I think it's "no, we don't have those".
Coke pmichaud: any idea how we're going to support languages that have that OO model? 19:27
pmichaud Coke: it will depend on the language (more)
particle coke: derive your class from Object
pmichaud In the case of Perl 6, I would end up creating a protoobject for the class, and then adding the class methods to that specific instance (possibly via roles or some other)
or, just use the protoobject as the invocant for a "class method" 19:28
at any rate, my understanding of protoobjects and Perl 6 evolved beyond having to worry about class methods, at least for now :-)
Infinoid $P54 = $P53."print"() is supposed to call a method, but "print"($P37) is supposed to call a standalone. But Foo.print :method ends up being called in both cases here, causing the recursion exception. That tells me :method didn't work 19:29
sounds like a parrotbug
pmichaud Infinoid: it depend on how :method is defined
Infinoid: and that's what we're saying hasn't been resolved yet 19:30
Infinoid ok, thanks
pmichaud or perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're pointing out -- just a sec
Infinoid I'm mostly PIR-clueless
pmichaud okay, here's my guess 19:31
:method "worked" in the sense that it created a method for 'print' in the class 'Foo'
however, it also added 'print' into Foo's namespace. (This is the part that is unresolved.)
so, $P53."print"() does exactly the correct thing by calling the print method
particle pmichaud: it's not unresolved. 19:32
pmichaud inside of that method we have "print"($P37)
particle "Kevin Tew started investigating this ticket, and he discovered
that :method subs are already being placed as entries in the
namespace by default, which is the behavior I was looking for.
So, the issue turns out to be a non-issue (for me at least),
unless we decide to make it one." --pmichaud
pmichaud particle: ah. I just hadn't gotten to the end of that post.
particle: you're correct, we resolved it as the current behavior being okay for now. But it's no longer okay for now -- we need a way to create methods that aren't in the namespace 19:33
and I'm now going to switch my position and ask that :method not place methods in the namespace by default, and that we have an explicit :export flag to get it to do so
particle try :method :anon. see if that works today
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Infinoid pmichaud: sorry, I'm still just trying to catch up with you guys and understand what's going on. In the PIR for a method, if you call "foo"($P37), is that obviously a non-method invocation, or will it be translated to $P37."foo"()? 19:34
pmichaud Infinoid: method can be invoked in two ways 19:35
$P37."foo"() is always a method
sorry
$P37."foo"() is always a method call
however
methods can also be treated as subs, where the first argument is the invocant
thus "foo"($P37) can also be used to invoke a method
Infinoid that sounds a lot like p5 :) 19:36
ok, and "isa"($P37, "foo") will end up calling the isa vtable method on whatever class P37 belongs to?
pmichaud no
particle please don't use the words "vtable method". there's no such thing. 19:37
pmichaud not precisely
particle it's "method" and "vtable function"
pmichaud for "isa"($P37, "foo"), Parrot does
$P99 = find_name "isa"
$P99($P37, "foo")
the (Sub) object associated with "isa" can be either a normal sub or a method -- the caller doesn't care 19:38
however, the "isa" method that gets invoked depends strictly on the symbols in the current and global namespaces -- it doesn't depend on the class of $P37 at all 19:39
this is different from $P37."isa"("foo"), in which case we would grab the "isa" method that is associated with $P37
in other words "isa"($P37, "foo") doesn't look at the type of $P37 at all (unless "isa" is defined with mmd/:multi), while $P37."isa"(foo) never looks in the namespaces 19:40
Infinoid ok, thanks. if I'm understanding correctly, that sounds like a strong argument for not listing methods in namespaces
pmichaud at this point I agree.
particle++ # finding the earlier thread on the topic 19:41
wow, :anon seems to work :-) 19:42
nopaste coming up 19:43
19:43 gryphon joined
particle ...as i suspected. 19:44
pmichaud I'm thinking that better would be to switch the default 19:45
19:45 gryphon joined, contingencyplan joined
particle i don't understand why you wanted it the other way around in the first place. 19:46
but, we have something that works today. should be easy to modify the code generator to support that, no?
...then argue your case to have it flipped.
pmichaud I wanted it the other way because otherwise it was difficult to get a method into a namespace (basically it involved the use of :load :init subs and some very bizarre lookups)
yes, we can fix the code gen immediately 19:47
ideally what I'm after now is
.sub 'foo' :method # creates a method, no namespace entry
.sub 'bar' :method :export # creates method, also entry as 'foo' in namespace
.sub 'baz' :method :export('abc') # creates 'baz' method, entered as 'abc' in namespace 19:48
particle yep
pmichaud although all I need for the moment is the :export flag
particle .sub 'baz' :method :export('abc') :vtable('def')
cognominal pmichaud, speaking of namespace, I am not familiar to the compilation chain to add it to regexen
nopaste "pmichaud" at 76.183.97.54 pasted ":anon does what we need for now (particle++)" (37 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/12808 19:49
pmichaud uh oh, no it doesn't 19:51
purl oh yes it does!
pmichaud :anon also means it's not a method
nopaste "pmichaud" at 76.183.97.54 pasted ":anon doesn't do what we need for now :-( :-(" (44 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/12809
pmichaud I'll re-open #48631 with the new recommendation 19:52
or I can make a new ticket
PerlJam good afternoon 19:54
What's new in parrot-land today? 19:55
pmichaud exporting methods as subs (or not exporting them)
Coke pmichaud: new ticket with a see also is probably best, since you're asking for something else. =-)
pmichaud Coke++ # thanks 19:57
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ambs Anybody knows what means: sengsv?relse ? 20:04
Debolaz ambs: If danish, it means bedroom. 20:14
ambs yes, danish
strange 20:15
one room type is "standard class"
the other is "standard 4 sengsvaerelse"
Debolaz Hmmm.. Yeah, that didn't quite add up. 20:19
ambs hehehe
Debolaz is a norwegian, danish not the first language. :)
ambs hehehe 20:20
thanks
asking on #perl :)
Debolaz It seems to simply mean number of beds. 20:23
donaldh single bed 20:26
dobbelværelse
presumably means double
ambs yes, somebody on #perl said it was a room with four beds
although that is kind of strange
:)
20:29 wknight8111 joined
ambs sent an email to the hotel asking for information 20:30
Debolaz, and donaldh, thanks for your help
nopaste "donaldh" at 213.123.171.12 pasted "definition of seng" (1 line) at nopaste.snit.ch/12810 20:31
donaldh oops da.wiktionary.org/wiki/seng 20:32
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ambs :) 20:35
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cotto_work does anyone know offhand the revision when the perl6 fakecutable was introduced? 22:07
I'm becoming increasingly certain that it never worked with c's mmd example 22:08
pmichaud well, the mmd stuff is quite recent 22:09
I think it might have worked for a couple of revisions, and then something broke in the perl6 executable
cotto_work bwt, my definition of "worked" is "didn't cause a backtrace" 22:10
pmichaud right
I think something happened to parrot that causes the fakecutable to not function properly in some cases 22:11
I haven't had a chance to track it down yet, though.
cotto_work I'm trying to bisect it
pmichaud find the revision where mmd was introduced
it will be on or about the date that c posted the article
I have to run to dinner, bbiaw 22:12
cotto_work I've been trying to find the first revision where the example doesn't cause a bt
22:31 particle joined
cotto_work this is beyond my skill to heal 22:40
22:40 Limbic_Region joined
Infinoid cotto_work: what does your test look like? 22:40
22:41 skids joined
cotto_work pick a revision, apply www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=26173, make perl6, check if it pukes on chromatic's mmd example 22:42
repeat
22:43 ruoso joined
cotto_work I'm getting the impression that I'm missing something 22:44
Limbic_Region looks like the Win32/Cygwin and Win32/MinGW build is broke again - unless someone invalidated the bytecode - in which case.....make reaclean now 22:56
Infinoid Limbic_Region: pmichaud has been removing ops, which I'm pretty sure will invalidate the bytecode 23:03
23:03 particle joined
Limbic_Region Infinoid - yeah, it built fine after the realclean 23:19
dalek r27160 | pmichaud++ | trunk: 23:22
: [core]: more dead code elimination
: * Remove STACK_ENTRY_INT, STACK_ENTRY_FLOAT, STACK_ENTRY_STRING,
: and STACK_ENTRY_POINTER, as they are no longer used after
: eliminating stack.ops .
: * Resolves RT#52842.
diff: www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27160
Limbic_Region any oracle gurus about that would mind answering a question in /msg ? 23:32
davidfetter not a guru, but i've worked with the beast. what's up? 23:35
Limbic_Region will /msg since it is completely OT 23:38
ok, /msg(s) sent 23:39
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