Parrot 1.2.0 released | parrot.org/ | 303 RTs left | Weekly Priority: Profiling
Set by moderator on 28 May 2009.
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Austin_Hastings Okay, I'm reading this paper: www.soi.city.ac.uk/~ross/papers/FingerTree.pdf on Finger Trees, and my head just exploded. 00:10
And FWIW, finger trees are not O(1). They are O(1) amortized for deque operations. (The perl list ops). For other operations, they have to be annotated (an O(n) operation) before becoming O(log n) objects. 00:20
Now I am a fraction more knowledgeable. Thanks, dan + darbelo. 00:21
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Austin_Hastings rehai, bacek 00:29
bacek_ rehai Austin_Hastings 00:30
Austin_Hastings FYI: Okay, I'm reading this paper: www.soi.city.ac.uk/~ross/papers/FingerTree.pdf on Finger Trees, and my head just exploded. 00:31
Now ur brane will hurts too
cotto It feels like forever since I've looked at an actual academic paper. 00:35
I look forward to the head 'splodage.
Austin_Hastings Not long enough. I invested a lot of money in booze and drugs to get those brain cells killed off.
cotto I don't look at them often because I get lost really quickly, but that's beside the point. 00:36
ping gandi.net 00:49
purl 10 packets transmitted, 10 received, 0% packet loss, time 9011ms, rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 115.286/115.300/115.319/0.012 ms
cotto and yet I don't get to connect 00:51
Hmmm. A lightning talk about pmc_pct and making Parrot more self-hosting might be interesting. 00:57
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Austin_Hastings I just realized that class attributes are untyped. 01:06
How lame.
dalek rrot: r39398 | whiteknight++ | branches/io_rewiring/src/io/api.c:
[io_rewiring] Convert most occurances of my lousy pseudoroles to using base_type checks with PCCINVOKE fallbacks.
 01:07
TT #738 created by grantbow++: ICU download URL change in README 01:21
cotto trac does not win at url preservation 01:22
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Infinoid bacek_: eh, I think branch commits deserve full karma too 05:25
I wouldn't mind using the #perl6 pugsbot format, except that some folks here do use the review links (and I want to encourage that) 05:27
cotto I use and like them 05:40
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dalek rrot: r39399 | fperrad++ | trunk (2 files):
[doc] update ICU download URL
 06:23
TT #738 closed by fperrad++: ICU download URL change in README 06:25
rrot: r39400 | cotto++ | branches/pmc_pct/compilers/vtdumper/vtdumper.pir:
[vtdumper] rename frozen vtable dump to vtable.frozen to avoid conflicts with the perl-generated vtable.dump
 07:06
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cotto All this self-hosting is going to make for some interesting makefile dependencies. 07:11
Are frozen PMCs cross-platform?
i.e. if I checked in a frozen past, would other platforms be able to use it? 07:13
cotto goes off to investigate 07:14
cotto hopes someone will pipe up before he has to dig into the freeze/thaw code too much 07:16
cotto hears crickets
Hmm. I'm not confident that freeze/thaw will work. It doesn't appear to be very cross-platform. 07:21
can someone on non-x86 (x64 would be fine) checkout the pmc_pct branch, build it, compile vtable.tbl and post the md5sum of the resulting vtable.tbl? 07:34
s/dump/frozen/ 07:35
Once it's built, you just need to run ./parrot compilers/vtdumper/vtdumper.pbc src/vtable.tbl
and post the md5sum of the vtable.frozen, not vtable.tbl 07:36
smolder? 07:37
purl smolder is probably sourceforge.net/projects/smolder or web-based smoke test aggregator used by developers and testers to upload (automated or manually) and view smoke/regression tests using the Test Anything Protocol (TAP). or smolder.plusthree.com/app/public_pr..._reports/8
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dalek rrot: r39401 | cotto++ | trunk/src/pmc_freeze.c:
[freeze] minor freeze code readability improvement
 08:02
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cotto bacek, do you know if a PMC's frozen representation is portable? 09:21
bacek cotto: it's not. 09:22
cotto ok. in that case the vtable dump will probably have to use json
bacek we don't have anything "portable"... Even PBC isn't portable
+1 for JSON 09:23
cotto Good. I just finished writing a json dumper.
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cotto karma json 09:24
purl json has karma of 29
bacek btw, why do you need portable vtable dump? 09:28
cotto chicken and egg problem:
a vtable dump is needed to build Parrot, but Parrot is needed to build the vtable dumper. 09:29
bacek but for parsing json dump you still need parrot
cotto Perhaps I should be sleeping instead of thinking through build dependencies. 09:30
bacek and there is no conceptual difference between parsing vtable.tbl and vtable.json
cotto needs to think through what the eventual build process will look like 09:31
dalek rrot: r39402 | cotto++ | branches/pmc_pct/compilers/vtdumper/vtdumper.pir:
[vtdumper] use JSON as the dump format since frozen PMCs aren't portable (yet?)
bacek cotto: sleep on it :)
cotto yes
good night
bacek good night 09:32
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nopaste "bacek" at 114.73.179.59 pasted "Victory! (Almost...) Emitting real PBC from within Parrot in NQP." (168 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/16791 11:53
bacek Hooray!
Infinoid: what about implementing PIR compiler in PCT? :)
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Infinoid bacek: What about it? :) 12:27
bacek It's possible now :) 12:28
Infinoid awesome. bacek++
bacek Check nopaste
nopaste.snit.ch/16791
Infinoid I can check it tonight; have to leave soon
This week has been crazy, sorry. I will have time this weekend
bacek No worries. 12:29
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bacek Infinoid: did you found new $dayjob? 12:30
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dalek rrot: r39403 | bacek++ | branches/pmc_i_ops (4 files):
Merge branch 'master' into pmc_i_ops
 13:06
rrot: r39404 | bacek++ | branches/pmc_i_ops/src/pmc/bigint.pmc:
[pmc] Reimplement most of BigInt math ops in terms of i_ops
rrot: r39405 | bacek++ | branches/pmc_i_ops/src/pmc/bigint.pmc:
[pmc] BigInt bitwise ops use i_ops now.
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dalek kudo: 056847f | pmichaud++ | src/classes/Grammar.pir:
Add .parse to base Perl6::Grammar and other non-Rakudo grammars. Fixes #66270.

we can inherit that one and omit this one.		 13:39
rrot: r39406 | bacek++ | branches/pmc_i_ops/src/pmc/scalar.pmc:
[pmc] Scalar ops reimplemented in terms of i_ops.
 13:46
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dalek TT #739 created by gerd++: path of installed config.fpmc file on a 64bit system 14:27
kudo: 636a2b6 | jnthn++ | src/parser/actions.pm:
Fix one half of what is reported in RT#65128 - our T1 T2 sub f() { ... } now gives a compile time error like STD.
 14:31
kudo: 7a40779 | jnthn++ | src/setting/ (2 files):
Fix up various return type constraints in teh built-ins.
kudo: 8c09b53 | jnthn++ | src/parser/actions.pm:
Refactor setting of return types to eliminate duplicate code, and implement checking of implicitly returned values for the my T sub foo() { ... } and sub foo(--> T) { ... } cases.
kudo: a89161f | jnthn++ | :
Merge branch 'master' of git@github.com:rakudo/rakudo
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dalek kudo: fb2fd43 | jnthn++ | src/parser/actions.pm:
Make sure we type check implicit return values for of and returns also. Completely resolves RT#65128.
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Austin_Hastings w00t! Not every namespace contains code. 16:01
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darbelo Is there a way to make tokens case-insensitive in PCT grammars? 16:30
Whiteknight I don't know if PCT supports it, but normal P6 grammars should have the :i flag 16:32
what kinds of case-insensitivity do you need, just the first letter?
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particle :i is supported by pge 16:33
darbelo I have "token context_field { [ 'maxexponent' | 'minexponent' ] }"
In want 'minExponent' to match too. 16:34
particle token foo { :i 'm' [ 'in' | 'ax' ] 'exponent' } # just for fun :)
Austin_Hastings token m{<[Mm]>} token e{<[Ee]>} token foo { <.m> in <.e> xponent } 16:36
darbelo He, I trimmed the example a bit, ":i" is what I wanted.
Austin_Hastings :) 16:37
Does anyone know to what extend the wrong reporting of pir line numbers is a "known bug" versus something else?
darbelo Now you've told them, they know the bug is there ;) 16:38
Austin_Hastings That's what I'm afraid of. 16:39
darbelo I would search for a TT.
Whiteknight it's so hard to keep up with the list of supported features because development happens so quickly
darbelo Whiteknight: There's a simple solution to that. But i doubt you'd like it. 16:41
Whiteknight and what's that? 16:42
purl that is probably about the level that you were asking for
Austin_Hastings Why not? It's working for me.
darbelo Whiteknight: develop slower :)
Austin_Hastings Oh. 16:43
My approach was just to ignore what else is going on.
They're doing it wrong, anyways.
Whiteknight darbelo: Oh, I thought you were going to say that I needed to pay more freaking attention 16:44
darbelo "Paying attention" is not on the 'easy' category of my book :) 16:45
NotFound I think there is a RT, not a TT 16:46
The pir line numbers thing
Austin_Hastings NotFound: Really? 16:47
How do I search rt's?
NotFound Not sure, let me check...
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Austin_Hastings Found this RT page. I'll search here. rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Search/Simpl...talled%27) 16:50
NotFound rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=38594 16:51
Uh, no, this is solved
This one: rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=40204
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Austin_Hastings Not quite the same problem I'm having, I think. But it's good to know that life sucks for other people, too. 16:54
NotFound Austin_Hastings: feel free to add a comment to that ticket, or to create one in TT 16:59
Austin_Hastings Yeah, I'm a little leery. There's always the chance that the error was "somewhat right", since the bogus number in this case points to a die inside an exception handler. Maybe the line numbers are right and the exception handling stack is wrong. :( I've snapshotted the code, so I think I can post an overbloated test case if need be. 17:01
And what does "positional inside named args" mean? 17:07
dalek TT #740 created by doughera++: [PATCH] PLATFORMS update for 1.3 release for Solaris 8/SPARC 17:27
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dalek TT #741 created by Austin_Hastings++: Line numbers in backtraces are substantially wrong. 18:04
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cotto Austin_Hastings++ for filing that 18:10
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NotFound Someone here reads german Linux Magazine ? 18:39
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cotto L1? 19:32
purl L1 is a hypothetical language that would be used to implement PMCs and PIR-visible ops so that they could all be easily jitted. or irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/2009-04-21#i_1083550 or rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html...txn-471982
nopaste "tene" at 97.117.57.131 pasted "example of importing in PIR for japhb++" (8 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/16793 20:37
dalek rrot: r39407 | tene++ | trunk/runtime/parrot/languages/parrot/parrot.pir:
Add a utility method to the parrot compiler to load libraries into the local namespace
 20:45
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Coke fails to review 21:46
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cotto bacek, ping 22:02
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bacek cotto: pong 22:24
cotto I'd appreciate your comments on my post to parrot-dev about the build process
bacek good morning 22:25
purl Here I am, brain the size of a planet, and all they say is 'Good Morning'
bacek Just read it. Thinking in progress...
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bacek cotto: I think second approach is more sane 22:34
and simpler
cotto Can you think of anything that needs to be addressed or fleshed out better? 22:35
bacek not now. I didn't have my coffee yet... 22:36
cotto no rush. it's worth taking time to figure it out well 22:37
Austin_Hastings Umm, how about "why?"
bacek Austin_Hastings: "why" what?
purl "why" is yet unanswered.
Austin_Hastings Why does the pmc compiler need to be parrot hosted?
cotto Austin_Hastings, a couple reasons:
First, we're trying to get rid of perl5 as a build dependency. 22:38
Second, having a legitimate compiler will make it much easier to switch to L1
Austin_Hastings What's L1?
purl L1 is probably a hypothetical language that would be used to implement PMCs and PIR-visible ops so that they could all be easily jitted. or irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/2009-04-21#i_1083550 or rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html...txn-471982
Austin_Hastings Ok. 22:39
So again, why? There's already a working programming language at the bottom of the build stack: C
cotto By using L1, we can generate either C, LLVM bytecode or something else. 22:40
bacek Austin_Hastings: think about JIT
Tene Writing PMCs in terms of Parrot ops allows for JIT.
Austin_Hastings That's not my question. My question is, why write another PMC compiler; (you say: remove perl5 from build stack, okay) and given that, why write it in something other than C? 22:42
cotto We've got some nice compiler tools. Why not use them? 22:43
Austin_Hastings Because your target environment doesn't have them, but you know it does have a C compiler?
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cotto If you want to write one that's fine, but it's *much* easier to use Parrot 22:46
's tools, since we know we'll have them.
s/you/someone/
Austin_Hastings Speaking as someone who's trying to implement a language using parrot's tools now, I'm not sure I entirely agree with that statement. :-X 22:47
cotto There's a learning curve, but it's easier. ;) 22:48
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bacek cotto: btw, after bootstrapping we can replace IMCC with PCT based PIR compiler :) 22:48
cotto and involves fewer segfaults
bacek, that'd be a pretty cool 22:49
although kj would be disappointed
bacek why?
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bacek We will use his pir compiler as base 22:50
cotto he's been working on pirc, which is (was?) meant to replace imcc as a from-scratch less crufty alternative
bacek He also implemented PCT base PIR parser :)
s/base/based/
So, we can merge two approaches - reimplement kj' pirc in NQP using kj's PIR grammar 22:52
...
3. Profit!
cotto so we'd have two pir compilers? 22:54
or we'd require a working parrot to bootstrap?
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Tene He hasn't been working on pirc in quite a while. 22:57
bacek imcc will be used to bootstrap only. 22:58
PCT based PIR compiler for everything else 22:59
Tene I started trying to work on pirc, but ran into some issues and los tmomentum. 23:00
cotto pirc does have the disadvantage of a very low bus number. 23:01
dalek TT #733 closed by jkeenan++: Branch cleanup: pdd30install_stage4 23:02
Tene argh... I hate composing mails to parrot-dev
cotto reply oddness?
Tene anybody want to do it for me?
cotto "Tene was going to say something." 23:03
Tene about segfaults! make sure to mention segfaults!
And GC!
cotto The segfaults are causing GC.
How's that?
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kid51 Good evening. 23:05
If I could get some feedback on trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/266#comment:9, I could (re-)close that ticket.
Tene GC is causing segfaults. 23:06
Austin_Hastings Tene, aside from parrot-dev, who cares about this?
Tene kid51: I can confirm.
Austin_Hastings Pretend you're leaving them a message on here.
dalek rrot: r39408 | chromatic++ | trunk/src/embed.c:
[src] Tidied code; no functional changes.
 23:07
rrot: r39409 | chromatic++ | trunk/src/gc/alloc_register.c:
[GC] Added code to null out array elements when free()ing contexts from the

wonder if there's a potential double free problem here. As it is, paranoia rules.
rrot: r39410 | chromatic++ | trunk/src/packfile.c:
[src] Freed PackFile members that might get overlooked.
rrot: r39411 | chromatic++ | trunk/src/pmc/eventhandler.pmc:
[PMC] Hoisted a SUPER() call in EventHandler's mark entry into an if block
Tene Mostly, I'm hoping chromatic will swoop in from the skies and fix it.
... that's a lot of GC-related commits from chromatic.
o.O
Tene updates parrot
Austin_Hastings Perhaps he has...
dalek rrot: r39412 | chromatic++ | trunk/src (3 files):
[src] Tidied code; no functional changes.
 23:11
Tene Nope, it still breaks. 23:13
cotto bacek, is the idea about using imcc only to bootstrap and using the PCT-based PIR compiler for everything else yours? 23:14
bacek cotto: ahm. May be mine. But it is pretty obvious idea 23:15
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darbelo bacek: You mean maintaning to separate compilers or turn IMCC into a 'Not Qite PIR" of sorts? 23:16
bacek darbelo: actually turn pirc to nqp. imcc is awful... 23:17
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darbelo s/IMCC/"The one written in c"/ 23:18
cotto karma imcc 23:19
purl imcc has karma of -1
darbelo karma pirc
purl pirc has neutral karma
darbelo That's all the evidence I need of pirc's superiority. QED 23:20
dalek rrot: r39413 | chromatic++ | trunk (4 files):
[misc] Fixed references to runcore command-line option (TT #639, Klaus).
 23:21
bacek darbelo: just check the code :)
chromatic I wouldn't use IMCC or a C-based compiler to bootstrap.
We could distribute generated files, as noted, or even cross-platform PBCs if necessary. 23:22
dalek TT #639 closed by chromatic++: Usage information for command line options
bacek chromatic: our pbc isn't very stable. But I prefer to have single PCT based compiler too 23:23
chromatic When Allison and I last discussed this, she seemed comfortable checking in generated files as a fallback. 23:24
bacek "generated pbc" and "generated C" are slightly different 23:25
But... We can generate C from PIR :)
Tene chromatic: I'm getting a segfault somewhere in the GC right now... I've been having trouble tracking it down. Think you'll have a chance to look at it if I pos tto parrot-dev?
chromatic We have to generate C for now. 23:26
Tene, I'm working on TT #730 right now, but I can look at yours next.
Tene chromatic: you want me to send to parrot-dev, or where? 23:29
cotto So if we use a PCT-based pir compiler without a C-based compiler too bootstrap, would the parrot binary be just a pbc interpreter? 23:30
s/too/to/
chromatic If you have a test case, nopaste it and if I can't get to it soon, parrot-dev is fine.
cotto, it'll also need all of the backing libraries in src/
cotto right, but nothing about compiling will be built-in 23:31
that raises the importance of portable pbc 23:32
chromatic I don't follow.
Oh. I see what you're saying. 23:33
I don't think we can get rid of the C code to implement ops and PMCs until we have working L1.
Until then the Parrot binary won't be just a PBC interpreter.
bacek we can't checkin generated PBCs into svn because thay are not very portable
chromatic Right. 23:34
bacek chromatic: it's not about ops, it's about PIR...
implementation of ops and pmcs in terms of L1 is different task 23:35
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nopaste "tene" at 97.117.57.131 pasted "GC segfault with steme and rakudo for chromatic++" (101 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/16796 23:35
Tene chromatic: is that enough of a test case for you?
chromatic One sec. 23:36
Does anyone find this code sane?
$P1.unicode:"foo\\x{b1}"()
Tene Is that "Do you know if this works with the current imcc?" or "Does this sound sane conceptually?" ? 23:37
chromatic The latter, because I can change the answer to the former depending on answers to the latter. 23:38
Infinoid chromatic: How would you feel about reducing the INITIAL_BUCKETS #define from 16 to 4? It causes a significant improvement in perl6 -e 'my $i = 0; while ( $i < 1000000) { $i++ }' and seems to have either positive or no effect on every other benchmark I can find.
Tene It looks fine to me.
chromatic Infinoid, no argument here.
cotto +1 to the unicode method call as long as we don't end up with a lot of code that looks like that 23:41
chromatic Okay, that's three votes for. I'll make it work.
dalek rrot: r39414 | Infinoid++ | trunk/src/hash.c:
[core] Tweak initial hash buckets (from 16 to 4).
 23:44
rrot: r39415 | Infinoid++ | trunk/PLATFORMS:
[PLATFORMS] Apply patch from doughera++ in TT #740, to remove sol8-sparc-gcc from PLATFORMS.
rrot: r39416 | jkeenan++ | trunk/t/compilers/imcc/syn/file.t:
Delete DIR => cwd() key-value pair from one instance of create_tempfile(), in hope that this clears up a testing problem on Cygwin.
TT #740 closed by Infinoid++: [PATCH] PLATFORMS update for 1.3 release for Solaris 8/SPARC 23:45
Infinoid flight & 23:46
dalek TT #742 created by jkeenan++: Parrot::Test::Util::create_tempfile() cannot handle DIR option on Cygwin 23:49
japhb I cannot manage to subscribe myself to parrot-dev ... any mail admins around? 23:51
kid51 japhb: I am not a mail admin ... but what is the specific problem? 23:53
japhb I never get the subscribe confirmation email ... even though I'm using the same address that I subscribe to all the perl6-* lists, so it's not like it's failing across the board. 23:55
particle1 see you again soon, infinoid....
particle finally, no more of that - suffix.
kid51 japhb: Hmm, yeah, maybe there's a mail problem. FWIW, if you prefer a news interface, you can subscribe to gmane.comp.compilers.parrot.devel at news.gmane.org. 23:58

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