www.parrot.org/ | 277 RTs left | Next release: 2009-07-21
Set by moderator on 20 July 2009.
mikehh All Tests PASS (pre/post config, smolder, fulltest) at r40174 - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 00:00
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whiteknight Win64 is a mess. I don't know if this will ever work right 00:18
it's failing t/op/64bit.t because "int" and "long" in MSVC64 are both 32-bit values, so IMCC isn't converting constants in PIR code correctly
and MSVC doesn't implement strtoll like it should. It has _atoi64, but that doesn't let you specify a non-decimal base 00:19
if we use "long" instead of "long long" to make things simple, sizeof(INTVAL) != sizeof(void*), and hillarity ensues
chromatic We shouldn't assume sizeof (INTVAL) is the same as sizeof (void *) 00:20
whiteknight we *shouldn't*, but we do in many places 00:21
"we *shouldn::t*" :)
And either way, the fact that 64-bit support in Windows is so poor is depressing 00:22
dalek cnum-dynpmcs: r114 | darbelo++ | trunk/aux/decTest/src/ (3 files):
[decTest] Made some changes to the grammar and altered the emitted code.

in procs.pir. All we need to do now is emit a valid plan() and we're generating valid TAP.		 00:24
cotto whiteknight, how much work (and of what nature) is required to make win64 happy? 00:26
whiteknight cotto: lots of work and of an evil nature 00:27
not before this release
(maybe not before next release either)
chromatic we *{shouldn}t*
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whiteknight this whole platform is so goddamn bonkers it's amazing 00:28
bacek hi again
purl oh, you're back!
mikehh All Tests PASS (pre/post config, smolder, fulltest) at r40175 - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64
whiteknight doesn't help that nmake doesn't understand -j, and the build takes freaking forever 00:31
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dalek rrot: r40176 | whiteknight++ | trunk/config/gen/platform/generic/platform_limits.h:
[win64] fix to a macro that wasn't quite right before.
 00:36
rrot: r40177 | whiteknight++ | trunk/PLATFORMS:
[PLATFORMS] update with information about the state of the build on Win64
 00:40
TT #846 closed by coke++: Add 'testing' to Component pane in Trac 00:42
mikehh rakudo (0cdcc88) on parrot r40175 (spec at r27624) make test/make spectest PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 00:47
whiteknight smolder? 00:53
purl it has been said that smolder is sourceforge.net/projects/smolder or web-based smoke test aggregator used by developers and testers to upload (automated or manually) and view smoke/regression tests using the Test Anything Protocol (TAP). or smolder.plusthree.com/app/public_pr..._reports/8
cotto whiteknight, would a code audit for misuse of sizeof() be necessary and/or sufficient? 00:54
whiteknight cotto: I really don't know, I assume not
there are plenty of places e.g. VTABLE_get_pointer that use INTVALs and void* interchangably
cotto sounds unpleasant 00:55
epically so 00:56
whiteknight yes
allison moving networks
cotto Is there a way we could use a macro to make such misuses obvious, i.e. POINTER_SIZE? 00:58
(this obviously won't happen before the release, but we'll need to address it eventually)
whiteknight irclogs? 01:04
purl irclogs is irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today or see also: infrared clogs
cotto It seems like we could do some clever hacking (maybe with splint) to automatically detect misuses of void*. 01:22
whiteknight I dont' know. After the release I'm not working on this particular task anymore
at least, not until next release
cotto heh
I'm not surprised.
whiteknight you said you wanted testing on rare systems, and I did that
cotto Yup
and I thank you for it 01:23
whiteknight would love to submit yet another smolder report on Ubuntu9.04-amd64
smolder reports on ubuntu are like potato chips: you can't have just one
or just one dozen
when is the release going out, before or after #ps tomorrow? 01:24
cotto om nom nom nom
purl om nom nom nom is apina.biz/4991.gif
cotto That's mesmerizing. 01:26
hydrapheetz ooh
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dalek rrot: r40178 | jhorwitz++ | trunk (2 files):
list candidates for embedding API so we can begin deprecating functions that
 01:41
TT #588 closed by jhorwitz++: pdd10-extending/embedding/nci, define parrot api 01:48
kid51 'make fulltest' passes at r40174 on both Linux/i386 and Darwin/PPC 01:54
chromatic Alright, time for a couple of bugfixes! 01:56
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Infinoid ugh. I had plans to do a bunch of testing and parroty goodness, and then Monday happened 02:01
how's 1.4 looking?
kid51 tests are passing
cotto is alive
what more could you ask for? ;-) 02:02
Infinoid gummy bears?
ooh, a lava lamp nightlight for my bathroom!
kid51 has been busy classifying Trac tickets by component
cotto Yup. Definitely not dead. 02:04
darbelo A rainbow colored yak. 02:05
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darbelo kid51++ # inundating our inboxes with reminders of our laziness. 02:12
dalek TT #265 closed by jkeenan++: patch to avoid linking with -lpthread on openbsd 02:16
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cotto Who's Aldo Calpini? 02:30
chromatic The John Galt of Parrot.
cotto He's listed as the PocketPC platform porter in RESPONSIBLE_PARTIES, but I don't recognize the name.
John Galt? 02:31
purl John Galt is probably a fictional character.
kid51 search.cpan.org/~acalpini/ 02:32
cotto yup; just found that
any reason not to remove him? 02:34
chromatic The most recent messages I've seen from him were in 2007. 02:35
cotto I'll take that as a yes.
Now that most HLLs are out of svn, does it make sense to list their maintainers in RESPONSIBLE_PARTIES?
chromatic No. 02:36
cotto out they go 02:38
chromatic Coke's HLL map example doesn't get fixed this release. 02:39
Way, way too invasive.
Ugh, now I have to figure out a web site to report a bug.
trac--
dalek TT #867 created by chromatic++: Implicit NameSpace Creation Does Not Respect Compile-time HLL Map 02:43
rrot: r40179 | cotto++ | trunk/RESPONSIBLE_PARTIES:
[docs] various updates to RESPONSIBLE_PARTIES, including removing HLL devs since HLLs are externally hosted now
 02:44
rrot: r40180 | chromatic++ | trunk/t/pmc/namespace.t:
[t] Added TODO test for TT #867, where HLL maps in :init code doesn't change
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dalek kudo: d69cfe6 | pmichaud++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
Bump PARROT_REVISION to get proper exception from unfound regex.
 02:55
kudo: b756ac9 | pmichaud++ | src/parser/quote_expression.pir:
Allow comments in << ... >> (qq:ww) lists.
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dalek TT #551 closed by chromatic++: t/pmc/nci.t: 2 test failures 02:57
rrot: r40181 | chromatic++ | trunk (3 files):
[NCI] Excluded NCI calls with 'V' in their signatures from JITting and JIT
Andy I'm here now 03:03
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dalek rrot: r40182 | pmichaud++ | trunk/DEPRECATED.pod:
[pct]: Add deprecation note about possible change in PAST::Val code generation.
 04:58
TT #868 created by pmichaud++: DEPRECATE generation of PAST::Val constants 04:59
cotto It's a deprecation PARTY. 05:00
and you're invited!
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dalek kudo: ae29fbf | pmichaud++ | src/parser/grammar.pg:
Better handle hyphens and apostrophes after certain keywords (RT #64656).
 05:24
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dalek rkdown: 9f9e594 | fperrad++ | src/Compiler.pir:
use a root namespace for Math::Rand
 05:42
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cotto allison, the PIR book was sent to the publisher, right? 06:00
chromatic I reviewed the draft; it looks good. 06:01
cotto so it's in its final form but hasn't been sent off yet 06:03
chromatic They sent us a proof. I meant proof. 06:04
allison on chromatic's vote of confidence, I approved the book 06:12
so, now it's just a matter of waiting for the data to reach the retailers
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allison last time we did this, 2 years ago, the whole process from submitting the manuscript to the publisher to having it in online stores took a little over a week 06:16
this time it's a little over a month, which is annoying
cotto I wonder how long it'll be until a Parrot book isn't obsolete before people can buy it. ;) 06:17
chromatic Parrot 3.6 06:18
cotto sounds about right
chromatic, do you have a plan to turn L1 from an idea into a usable specification? 06:20
I don't consider there to be an onus on you. I just thought you might already have such a plan simmering.
chromatic I liked the PCT ops/PMC idea. 06:21
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chromatic Once we have some idea of the operations we need to support, I figured I'd steal whatever Smalltalk's slang does. 06:26
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cotto Are Rakudo and Partlc building from an installed Parrot (without the build tree) now? 06:41
*Partcl
moritz rakudo still uses the build tree; dunno if it would be possible 06:42
cotto thanks 06:44
I remember hearing some noise about that but didn't know if the problem was resolved. 06:45
NotFound cotto: I checked a few days, and it still depends on the build tree for several things. 06:53
cotto NotFound, ok. I'll make sure that NEWS doesn't claim otherwise. 06:54
NotFound going to dayjob 06:55
dalek rrot: r40183 | cotto++ | trunk/NEWS:
[NEWS] final (?) update to NEWS before tagging the release
 07:13
moderator www.parrot.org/ | 277 RTs left | Next release: 2009-07-21 | Commit freeze in effect! 07:21
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moritz cotto++ 07:49
cotto As I suspected, the native_pbc tests explode when I bump the PBC_COMPAT to a new major version number. I hope mk_native_pbc takes care of that.
chromatic It should. 07:52
cotto It seems to. 07:54
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dalek rrot: r40184 | cotto++ | trunk (14 files):
[RELEASE] prepare for 1.4.0 release
 08:09
mikehh All Tests PASS (pre/post config, smolder, fulltest) at r40183 - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 08:16
GeJ cotto++ 08:29
moritz is bumping PBC_COMPAT necessary? I mean we did that recently after bacek's branch merge 08:30
cotto It's part of the release process for a supported release. 08:34
it's a major version bump rather than minor 08:35
moderator www.parrot.org/ | 277 RTs left | Next release: 2009-07-21 | 1.4.0 is tagged. Resume committing! 08:38
dalek rrot: r40185 | cotto++ | tags/RELEASE_1_4_0:
tagging 1.4.0 release
 08:38
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bacek_at_work cotto++ # Yay! 08:52
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cotto Is someone online who has admin powers on the Drupal site? 09:06
I can post the announcement but not change the alias for release/current. It'll look kinda silly if the release announcement gets sent out without that change. 09:08
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cotto The release announcement points to the right place, so I don't think this is a blocker. 09:10
on with the show
chromatic Editing. 09:12
purl i heard editing was better on the director's cut
chromatic Edited. 09:13
Your name and quote confused me; it looked like something I would have chosen. 09:14
cotto heh. As I was looking through old quotes I saw you had one by the same author. 09:16
chromatic One of my favorites.
Next release I do, I'll probably pull something from "Lord of Light". 09:17
dalek website: cotto++ | Parrot 1.4.0 "Mundo Cani" Released! 09:23
website: www.parrot.org/news/2009/Parrot-1.4.0
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cotto use Perl doesn't seem to be a fan of <pre> 09:29
chromatic <ecode>
cotto Can I unsubmit? 09:31
dalek l: 0304594 | fperrad++ | build/Makefile.in:
fix target 'clean'
 09:39
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moderator www.parrot.org/ | Parrot 1.4.0 "Mundo Cani" Released! 09:43
GeJ anyone else witnessing erratic plan failures on t/pmc/packfileconstanttable.t ? 09:49
locally, it fails once out of 4 runs (on average).
nopaste "GeJ" at 61.5.215.29 pasted "failing test (on average once out of 4 consecutive runs)" (15 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/17341 09:51
dalek tracwiki: v85 | cotto++ | WikiStart 09:52
tracwiki: mention 1.4.0 release
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/WikiSt...ction=diff
cotto That's no good. 09:57
GeJ, I can't get that test to fail. Are you all up-to-date? 10:00
nm. If you weren't it'd fail all the time.
The only item I didn't get to was marking the Trac Milestone 1.3.0 completed, which I don't think I have permission for. 10:06
That'll be easy enough to take care of at #ps.
now it's time for sleep'
GeJ cotto: # parrot --version 10:11
This is Parrot version 1.4.0-devel built for amd64-freebsd.
I'll have a closer look at it tomorrow. I need to get back to Perl 5 for $job. 10:12
I wouldn't worry though, my boxes are known to never work as expected. 10:13
cotto Hmmm. I checked that. 10:17
Is that from the tarball? 10:18
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cotto My understanding is that only the tarball doesn't say -devel 10:18
clock? 10:19
purl cotto: LAX: Tue 3:19am PDT / CHI: Tue 5:19am CDT / NYC: Tue 6:19am EDT / LON: Tue 11:19am BST / BER: Tue 12:19pm CEST / IND: Tue 3:49pm IST / TOK: Tue 7:19pm JST / SYD: Tue 8:19pm EST /
cotto good evening, bacek
;)
bacek good morning, cotto :)
bacek looking forward to brake Parrot badly :) 10:21
cotto I'm just going to double check that the tarball doesn't say "devel" and them I'm going to sleep.
first remove some of those deprecations
I think they've doubled in the past week 10:22
ok. A Parrot built from the tarball doesn't have -devel, so I'm going to sleep.
good night
bacek good night 10:23
GeJ Good night cotto. 10:25
mikehh All Tests PASS (pre/post config, smolder, fulltest) at r40185 - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 10:38
dalek rrot: r40186 | bacek++ | trunk (2 files):
[cage] Remove deprecated Parrot_get_namespace_autobase function
 10:39
bacek picking low-hanging fruits 10:41
dalek TT #155 closed by bacek++: Remove unused function Parrot_get_namespace_autobase
bacek Yay. Cheap karma! :) 10:42
dalek rrot: r40187 | bacek++ | trunk (3 files):
[cage] Remove unused Parrot_find_global_k function
 10:46
TT #156 closed by bacek++: remove unused function Parrot_find_global_k 10:48
rrot: r40188 | bacek++ | trunk (3 files):
[cage] Remove pobject_lives compatibility macro. Also fix parrot.supp to use Parrot_gc_mark_PObj_lives
 10:53
allison successfully built Ubuntu packages for a preview tarball built from cotto++'s pre-release commits 11:09
bacek allison: any thought/objections/etc about TT#866? 11:15
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kid51 wakes up and discovers that we've already released 11:46
cotto pulled an all-nighter
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GeJ clock ? 12:16
purl GeJ: LAX: Tue 5:16am PDT / CHI: Tue 7:16am CDT / NYC: Tue 8:16am EDT / LON: Tue 1:16pm BST / BER: Tue 2:16pm CEST / IND: Tue 5:46pm IST / TOK: Tue 9:16pm JST / SYD: Tue 10:16pm EST /
GeJ Good morning whiteknight 12:17
dalek rrot: r40189 | jkeenan++ | trunk (21 files):
Merge darwin2hints branch into trunk. Functionality for detecting Fink and Macports packages are transferred to config/init/hints/darwin.pm. Tests revamped accordingly.
rrot: r40190 | jkeenan++ | branches/darwin2hints:
Branch has been merged into trunk and is no longer needed at HEAD.
purl i already had it that way, dalek.
whiteknight good morning GeJ
bacek good moroning whiteknight 12:22
whiteknight hello bacek
excellent work today on the deprecations 12:23
you move quickly!
bacek whiteknight: I steal your karma removing pobject_alive :)
dalek TT #727 closed by jkeenan++: remove config steps 'auto:macports' and 'auto:fink' 12:24
whiteknight go for it. The function is already gone, it's just a macro now 12:26
bacek s/now/was/ :)
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whiteknight is very busy at work today and will need to post his #ps report very very early 12:44
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dalek rrot: r40191 | bacek++ | trunk (46 files):
[cage] Replace deprecated usage of 'new "Iterator"' with 'iter $P0'
 12:59
rrot: r40192 | bacek++ | trunk (2 files):
[cage] Remove Iterator.init
TT #869 created by bacek++: [cage] t/pmc/iterator.t should be removed 13:02
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PerlJam Did the parrot get released a tad earlier than normal because of cotto's timezone? ;) 13:09
bacek s/timezone// :) 13:11
dalek rrot: r40193 | bacek++ | trunk (7 files):
[cage] Remove deprecate nextkey_keyed* VTABLE. Part of TT#866
 13:13
tracwiki: v6 | bacek++ | Deprecation 13:21
tracwiki: parrot_new_pmc_hash replacement
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/Deprec...ction=diff
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dalek TT #494 closed by bacek++: [DEPRECATED] remove parrot_new_pmc_hash 13:24
rrot: r40194 | bacek++ | trunk (2 files):
[cage] Remove deprecated parrot_new_pmc_hash function
TT #861 closed by jkeenan++: mingw32-make fails upon tools\\build\\c2str.pl --all 13:38
rrot: r40195 | bacek++ | trunk (7 files):
[cage] Remove deprecated Parrot_MMD_method_name function
Coke is sad that the HLL build issues were not resolved. 13:41
(in time for 1.40
er, 1.4.0
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NotFound Mundo Cani? :o 13:53
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moritz what does it mean? 13:53
NotFound Hard to translate... 13:54
NotFound searching help... 13:55
GeJ Wikipedia says that it's a character from the book used in cotto's quote. 13:57
�a depressed dog that is always crying out in anguish� 13:58
moritz a non-robot marvin? :-) 13:59
NotFound GeJ: yes, but I don't know if that meaning is related or not with the spanish slang meaning. 14:00
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NotFound Anyway, users in Spain will laugh :) 14:01
bacek Oh shi... It's tomorrow again. 14:02
bacek must sleep
purl $bacek->sleep(8 * 3600);
dalek rrot: r40196 | bacek++ | trunk/lib/Parrot/Vtable.pm:
[cage] Don't generate deprecated Parrot_mmd_func_names
 14:03
TT #625 closed by bacek++: Deprecate Parrot_MMD_method_name and related defines.
bacek Someone have to teach purl about "Constant folding" optimisation...
GeJ bacek: already tomorrow? I would have thought it was in one hour. 14:07
clock ?
purl GeJ: LAX: Tue 7:07am PDT / CHI: Tue 9:07am CDT / NYC: Tue 10:07am EDT / LON: Tue 3:07pm BST / BER: Tue 4:07pm CEST / IND: Tue 7:37pm IST / TOK: Tue 11:07pm JST / SYD: Wed 12:07am EST /
GeJ au temps pour moi. 14:08
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NotFound Suggested translation of 'Cani': youg gipsy raper. 14:15
s/youg/young
Coke !? 14:17
NotFound According to some sources, this meaning is deformation of the more known word: 'cañí' 14:18
masak sounds likely. 14:19
NotFound Don't care about that, just don't be surprised is people from Spain laugh when they hear the name. 14:20
jonathan lol 14:21
Languages are awesome. :-)
NotFound Some other day I'll explain why Nissan 'Pajero' is called 'Montero' in Spain X-) 14:22
GeJ NotFound: interesting reason indeed :) 14:24
jonathan And then there was the Nova ;-) 14:28
jonathan forgets with car company that was
*which
moritz nova - no va? 14:29
jonathan Yeah
"doesn't go"
Not a good name for a car. ;-)
Of course, in various languages it means "new", which is rather better. 14:30
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NotFound 'Pajero' is a lot more more amusing than 'Nova', and worse for the owner image X-) 14:32
Language interoperability is hard. 14:33
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GeJ NotFound: that's why we have Parrot, haven't we? 14:34
NotFound Yeah.
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Coke chevy nova: www.snopes.com/business/misxlate/nova.asp 14:41
(urban legend)
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NotFound Makes sense, nova in spanish is accented in the 'o', and pronounced as "no va" will be accented in the 'a' 14:45
But the Nissan is named 'Montero' in Spain, this is not a legend. 14:46
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dukeleto r40196 : when I do "make fulltest" i get Failed test 'examples/benchmarks/overload.pir' : gist.github.com/151381 15:15
whiteknight cotto++ great release! 15:16
particle whiteknight: previous versions of msvc express (free version) did not have an x64 compiler 15:17
good to see the current version does
whiteknight particle: yeah, I think it's a recent inclusion
particle cl.exe is msvc
whiteknight not that it does us any good, Parrot + cl64 = b0rk
particle and always has been
whiteknight I know all about cl
particle i can get you a vm with msvc 2008 15:18
free and legal
whiteknight I have Vista64 with MSVC 2008 on another partition
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particle i have an msdn subscription courtesy of microsoft to use for parrot development 15:18
whiteknight oh, well that is a nice perk
particle so, any ms tools you need, i can get you 15:19
whiteknight okay, that's a sweet deal
The biggest steps right now are implementing a replacement for strtoll and strtoull, which MSVC doesn't have
once we have a solid replacement for those, I think many problems will go away
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whiteknight if MinGW ever releases an x64 version, we should be able to work fine on that oo 15:21
too
particle strtoll is not c89
long long didn't exist in c89 15:22
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whiteknight you sure about that? I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that it was 15:22
particle i'm sure
whiteknight yeah, maybe you're right
particle parrot uses long long even though it's not c89, it's the one major exception we make 15:23
whiteknight the only place where I think we need that exception is in Win64
I don't know of any other 64-bit platform where sizeof(long) != 8
particle yes, so we need parrot specific types
Coke ah, perhaps now we can drop our requirement on a hideously outdated stack! 15:25
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NotFound dukeleto: you are right, examples/benchmarks/overload.pir is failing 15:35
What are these .include in that file. They don't seem to be used. 15:36
And it doesn't look to be using the multi sub, BTW 15:39
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NotFound whiteknight: I'm currently building with Debian amd64, not Ubuntu amd64, don't count me in that large number ;) 15:46
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particle msg whiteknight you should read this: www.unix.org/version2/whatsnew/lp64_wp.html 16:09
purl Message for whiteknight stored.
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cotto bacek++ is a maniac 16:18
mundo cani? 16:25
mundo cani is the dog in the 1.4.0 release quote 16:26
mundo cani?
purl mundo cani is, like, the dog in the 1.4.0 release quote
flh does some document explain PMC's memory structure (and maybe its subtleties), or should I just try to understand it from pobj.h?
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cotto flh, docs/pmc.pod is reasonably up-to-date and at least provides a good overview 16:28
flh thanks cotto, I now know that I shouldn't really try to understand UnionVal 16:33
cotto np. I'm glad to know that the file will be useful to someone.
Coke Who broke "new Iterator" ? 16:43
(they need to run examples_tests.
flh cotto: that's in r40192 (I won't name who did it, maybe someone who worked a lot to improve iterators :) ) 16:44
Coke, not cotto, sorry...
Coke it's bacek. =-) 16:45
I tagged TT #811. 16:46
just a PITA to test other things when 'fulltest' is borked.
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dalek rrot: r40197 | coke++ | trunk (5 files):
Remove the Pair dynamic PMC.
 16:48
TT #187 closed by coke++: deprecated: dynpmc Pair 16:50
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dalek kudo: a74657c | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
spectest-progress.csv update: 416 files, 11854 passing, 0 failing
 16:57
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dalek TT #870 created by NotFound++: examples/benchmarks/overload.pir does not compile 17:21
kudo: 3b1bda7 | pmichaud++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
Bump PARROT_REVISION to latest Parrot 1.4.0 release.
 17:23
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nopaste "Util" at 68.191.99.24 pasted "Method not found - bug?" (26 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/17345 17:39
Util When using ResizableIntegerArray, why can't 'push' be called as a method instead of just an opcode?
Both opcode and method work correctly for ResizablePMCArray.
See nopaste.snit.ch/17345
pmichaud we never defined it for RSA
or RIA
there was some debate about whether it belonged on RPA, even 17:40
Tene Why is push an op at all?
Util 3xTLA unknown. URLs?
Tene Util: ResizableStringArray, ResizableIntegerArray, ResizablePMCArray 17:42
(took me way too long to remember what TLA meant ;)
Util doh! 17:43
treed Heh.
The context didn't help.
Util Tene: thanks!
NotFound Tycho Large Anomaly?
Tene I was thinking "TLA... is that like TLS, maybe?"
Util If an non-dynamic opcode exists, then I would think that every PMC would define it for themselves, unless it was nonsensical for that PMC. 17:45
particle or inherited
purl hmmm... inherited is for the classdata bit
Util (w.r.t. does it belong in RPA,RIA,RSA)
Tene: opcodes are cheaper/faster/easier to use? 17:46
Coke util: not if they delegate to something slow. =-)
but in general, if there's a vtable, you can't access the vtable directly. 17:47
so you use an opcode to invoke the vtable.
hurm. a question for me is why RPA even has a push method. 17:49
given that it has the push vtables.
Tene So that HLLs don't So that For HLLs, I'd suspect. 17:50
Coke what?
Tene Yay, lag eats my ^U
Coke if an HLL wants that, they can add it. 17:51
Tene Sure.
Coke I'd vote we kill it.
we're already presenting a confusing picture in terms of op/vtable/method, no need to further mix and match.
Tene My preference would be killing the push op and replacing it with a methods and a virtual op. 17:52
Coke if you kill the push op, you kill the vtable entries, too.
er, you 'might as well'
and if you move that to a method... what's special about that over other vtable entries?
(and also: pop, shift, and unshift) 17:53
... and don't you wish we had this discussion 3 weeks ago. =-)
17:54 payload joined
Tene Argh, connection fail. :( 17:57
I'd rather they moved to methods, too. I don't see what's so special about them that we have opcodes for them. My understanding was that moving them to methods had been planned for a while.
Coke Tene: documentation? 17:58
purl documentation is => a core attribute of attributes
pmichaud The reason that RPA has a .push method is because NQP can't work without it.
Coke I mean, is there a ticket for that?
NQP can't invoke an opcode?
pmichaud not directly.
Coke ...
pmichaud 3 + 4 invokes the 'add' opcode
there's not an operator that means "push" 17:59
treed << ?
purl i think << is Anagram's friend, too.
Coke that seems leaky.
pmichaud << means something else entirely.
dalek rdinal: 3b2e0db | (Ted Reed)++ | src/parser/actions.pm:
Convert to .ast() in actions.pm.
 18:00
Tene Coke: you'd recommend that NQP look at *which* methods are being called, and rewrite just those methods calls to opcode invocations?
treed Depends on the context.
treed << is left shift in some cases, and basically like push when used with an array (at least in Ruby)
Heh.
pmichaud we had this discussion before, and that's how we ended up with push/pop/shift/unshift on RPA 18:01
treed It ate the $( ) from that commit message.
Coke Tene: that would be better than the current situation.
let's either just use methods, or not use them.
pmichaud it was decided that providing the methods was better tahn forcing NQP to special-detect specific keywords
especially since special-detecting keywords isn't dynamically possible in many cases 18:02
Coke pmichaud: isn't NQP written using the same tools that we expect language designers to be able to solve these sorts of problems with?
pmichaud Coke: with the exception that NQP doesn't want a runtime beyond what Parrot provides. 18:03
Coke blah. 18:04
pmichaud whereas language designers typically provide a runtime library.
there are *lots* of places where we have method forms that correspond to opcode forms now
Coke And I would argue that we shouldn't have any.
Util PMCs which have methods with opcode names:
Coke let's just do it one way.
Util resizablepmcarray and resizablestringarray : shift pop unshift push
filehandle and stringhandle : open close read print
.end 18:05
pmichaud classobj.'add_parent'(...)
namespace.'make_namespace'(...)
Tene Didn't we have this discussion about 'read', too?
pmichaud if we have to get rid of either the opcode or method form, then I vote we eliminate the opcode form.
The opcode form doesn't allow options to be passed, where the method forms do. 18:06
Tene coke\twhat's so special about shift/pop/unshift/push that they should be opcodes instead?
If we're doing it one way, doing it as methods seems to make a lot more sense to me.
Coke Tene: I don't /care/ which one they are, I just don't want BOTH of them.
pmichaud I suggest a list post.
Coke we already do not have a convincing story for what's a vtable/opcode/method.
(er, more the why than the what.)
Tene The story as I understand it is just history. 18:07
pmichaud but method forms are _much_ easier to deal with than aopcode forms (from a compiler perspective)
Tene Isn't "dramatically reduce the number of opcodes" part of the bright shiny L1 future? 18:08
Coke (list post) I'll see if I can open a ticket. (it'll have to be for 2.0) 18:10
Util My thinking on the matter was shaped by Dan long ago: www.sidhe.org/~dan/blog/archives/000404.html
dalek cnum-dynpmcs: r115 | darbelo++ | trunk/aux/decTest/src/pct/actions.pm:
Add plan() call to the generated pir. We are now feature-equivalent to the perl
Tene I'm quite certain I remember "reduce the number of opcodes" being discussed at PDS. 18:11
Coke tene: <insert normal rant about not getting good documentation out of the PDS>
treed Is there any way to tell what kind of node a PAST node is? (NQP)
pmichaud treed: .WHAT ? 18:12
purl .WHAT is like blessed
pmichaud or if you want to test it for type, use .isa(...)
treed k, thanks
And that'll look like "PAST::Op" or just "Op"? 18:13
Coke (list post) I lied. I'm not going to bother.
(too many other parroty things to worry about.) 18:14
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pmichaud treed: "Op()" 18:15
sorry, "PAST::Op()"
treed k, thanks 18:16
pmichaud if you want to know if a node is PAST::Op, though, you should use $node.isa(PAST::Op)
treed Fair enough.
Coke seen chromatic?
purl chromatic was last seen on #parrot 8 hours, 46 minutes and 44 seconds ago, saying: <ecode>
treed I may end up solving this differently.
Coke seen cotto?
purl cotto was last seen on #parrot 1 hours, 42 minutes and 33 seconds ago, saying: np. I'm glad to know that the file will be useful to someone.
treed So far the solution seems to be passing the test suite.
I'll have to see if it actually solves the problem that needs solving. 18:17
18:17 jhorwitz joined
dalek tracwiki: v2 | coke++ | Glossy-Brochure 18:23
tracwiki: remove untrue marketing about perl and unicode, go with the facts. Clarify the mod_parrot statement (tcl, e.g., doesn't integrate so easily)
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/Glossy...ction=diff
Coke finally matches Util to his picture! 18:24
Coke is an idiot.
Util: ~~
knew you as two separate people. =-)
Util Coke: Don't feel bad; I did the same thing with Cotto at YAPC::NA::2009. 18:26
Coke heyyyy, t/op/io.t was not fixed before the release, methinks. 18:29
dalek website: darbelo++ | This week on decnum-dynpmcs. 18:33
website: www.parrot.org/content/week-decnum-dynpmcs.-0
18:38 mokurai joined 18:51 mikehh joined
dalek TT #871 created by coke++: add 'rand' as a dynop 19:02
rdinal: da35935 | (Ted Reed)++ | src/parser/ (2 files):
Severely reduce what can go in lhs, and move the is_a_sub check farther up the chain so that it doesn't interfere with assignment.
 19:03
chromatic perso.ens-lyon.fr/fabrice.rastello/...GO2009.pdf 19:06
19:08 MoC joined
Coke shorten that 19:08
purl That URL is at xrl.us/be4rk3 [perso.ens-lyon.fr]
Coke chromatic: is there a ticket/todo list/something regarding the profiler work? 19:10
seen allison?
purl allison was last seen on #parrot 8 hours, 1 minutes and 45 seconds ago, saying: successfully built Ubuntu packages for a preview tarball built from cotto++'s pre-release commits
chromatic Not sure; cotto, did I post it somewhere for you?\\ 19:11
cotto lemme dig that up 19:13
Coke thinks whiteknight is insane. 19:15
nopaste "cotto" at 74.61.2.46 pasted "my notes for getting a profiling runcore" (24 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/17348 19:16
flh chromatic, is parrot using SSA? 19:17
Coke cotto, chromatic: can that go on the wiki? 19:18
chromatic Doing it now.
purl Doing it now. is, like, it paying the bills? :)
cotto some editing may be required
dalek tracwiki: v86 | chromatic++ | WikiStart 19:19
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/WikiSt...ction=diff
chromatic Huh. 19:21
That shouldn't be.
Oh, that's fine.
flh cotto, about TT#840, I can rewrite io.t in Perl, but do you understand why it is failing now? I can find a computer with windows on it, but I don't know how to reproduce this bug 19:22
bloody tab key, that was for Coke, sorry
NotFound flh: the output of the last test is lost somewhere. 19:23
cotto I'm much less confused now.
japhb cotto: just change your nick to Pepsi, and that will solve the tab completion problem right there. ;-) 19:24
Coke flh: because the test wasn't converted properly?
<shrug> if I knew why it was broken, I'd've already fixed it. =-)
flh: and it doesn't need to be fully rewritten, so much as reverted, and then updated to track a few commits to the PIR version. 19:25
flh I'll attach a perl version to TT#840 tomorrow 19:26
dalek tracwiki: v1 | chromatic++ | ProfilingRuncore
tracwiki: Added profiling runcore notes to the wiki
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/Profil...ction=diff
tracwiki: v2 | chromatic++ | ProfilingRuncore
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/Profil...ction=diff
19:27 tomyan joined, Andy joined
flh I tried to build/run parrot under cygwin, but in this case, the test passes, so how can I build/run parrot on windows to see the failure? 19:27
NotFound Replacing the test with one that writes to a temporary file and checks that file might also be fine.
japhb Where should I post my thoughts regarding the HLL performance problem? parrot-dev? The wiki? 19:28
NotFound japhb: open a ssh connection to your brain ;) 19:29
moritz japhb: parrot-dev seems good to me
japhb NotFound: And where should the other end of the tunnel connect to? :-)
Coke flh: install strawberry perl.
it contains perl, a compiler, build tools... 19:30
strawberry?
purl strawberry is a Perl for Windows that works just like Perl everywhere else. See win32.perl.org/wiki/index.php?title...berry_Perl
japhb moritz: OK, will do.
Coke japhb: do you have a work in progress?
or something other than "DEAR GOD SO SLOW", which is pretty much what I have. =-)
NotFound japhb: let it open to any of us to connect.
flh ok, thanks (windows is really black magic to me, even for the simplest things) 19:31
japhb Coke: Actually, a few weeks ago I worked on trying to find some of the issues, and found a few general problem areas.
Coke excellent. 19:32
japhb I just don't have the Mad Skillz to fix said problems, nor the Copious Time to gain said Skillz. :-(
NotFound: No Necromancer episodes, please. :-) 19:33
Actually, hmm, wrong book reference I think, damn.
NotFound flh: strawberry is fine, I've been able to install it, build and test parrot, and implement the pipes win32 code in half a day. 19:34
japhb: I was thinking about searching for a related megatokyo episode, instead ;)
japhb heh 19:35
dalek TT #872 created by coke++: segfault with PASM1 compiler 19:37
NotFound Can't we just kill the PASM1 pseudo-compiler? 19:39
Coke NotFound: see my comment!
yes, that'd be fine.
NotFound Aye, sir!
AFAIK is only used in the 'eval' instruction of parrot_debugger... wich doesn't work. 19:40
I mean kill, without even deprecating it, unless someone provide a reasonable scenario in which someone might be using it. 19:42
I can't think any good reason to do a deprecation cycle for a feature that doesn't work at all. 19:43
Coke NotFound: I'm assuming it might work. 19:45
I have yet to prove my theory! =-)
I agree that if it doesn't nothing but fail, our users are unlikely to be relying on a segfault. 19:47
s/doesn't/does/
NotFound Coke: I took a look some days ago while reviewing TT #672, and were unable to find a way to make it work. 19:51
Coke wow, exactly 200 tickets apart. 19:53
NotFound That might explain why there are no test for it... or the contrary.
Coke seems reasonable to me, anyway - float the balloon on one of the tickets. 19:54
?
NotFound There are no test because it doesn't work, or it stopped working because it was never tested.
Coke Seems reasonable. chromatic, any opinion on removing something that can't demonstrably be shown to work? 19:55
chromatic If it doesn't work and never did, why keep it? 19:57
NotFound I suppose that when someone wrote the eval instruction in the debugger it must have been working. 19:58
Long, long time ago, in a galaxy far away... 20:01
20:13 eternaleye joined
Coke NotFound: seems like showing this also segfaulted in 1.0 would be sufficient for killing it. 20:20
NotFound Good idea, I'll try that tomorrow. 20:22
20:26 tomyan joined
Coke NotFound+= 20:27
NotFound++
dalek rdinal: d5f39d2 | (Ted Reed)++ | src/parser/ (2 files):
Remove unused and misleading rules mlhs and rlhs.
 20:36
20:38 hercynium joined 20:45 mberends joined
dalek rrot: r40198 | cotto++ | trunk (20 files):
[ops2c] change ops file format to include explicit ops preamble (tt #836)
 20:50
nopaste "cotto" at 74.61.2.46 pasted "update to fix Rakudo with Parrot's r40198" (25 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/17352
20:51 hudnix joined
cotto msg pmichaud There's a patch at nopaste.snit.ch/17352 to make Rakudo work with r40198. 20:51
purl Message for pmichaud stored.
particle (10:23:35 AM) dalek: rakudo: PARROT_REVISION is now frozen until Rakudo release. 20:52
pmichaud cotto: thanks! Would that patch work with 1.4.0?
cotto no. I just committed the deprecation. 20:53
It's not needed to work with 1.4.0
20:53 whiteknight joined
whiteknight irclogs? 20:53
purl i guess irclogs is irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today or see also: infrared clogs
pmichaud that's not my question :-)
I'm not asking if it's needed for 1.4.0, I'm asking if applying that patch would break Rakudo under 1.4.0
cotto sorry. I suspect it'll break if you try to use it with 1.4.0
pmichaud okay. 20:54
So we apply it after Rakudo's release.
cotto yes
pmichaud excellent, thanks.
cotto whenever you bump PARROT_REVISION
pmichaud could you forward that to rakudobug with [PATCH] so it doesn't get lost?
As I'll undoubtedly lose it.
treed Easy way to tell how many items a PAST node has had pushed onto it? (NQP)
I presume there's some sort of sigil for that.
numify or whatever 20:55
(I don't know perl, for the curious.)
pmichaud treed: +@($node)
treed Thanks.
cotto Coke: nopaste coming up for you... 20:57
nopaste "cotto" at 74.61.2.46 pasted "patch to make tcl work with Parrot's r40198" (21 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/17353
cotto actually, lemme test that. It's a very simple change but I've been known to get those wrong. 20:58
it builds 20:59
darbelo_as__purl SHIP IT! 21:00
21:00 mokurai joined
cotto purl, it builds 21:00
purl cotto: huh?
cotto it compiles
purl Ship it! 21:01
cotto there we go
japhb pmichaud: What are the bus numbers for PGE and PCT?
pmichaud japhb: I dunno. PGE probably 1.
PCT >= 1
japhb That's what I was afraid of. 21:02
pmichaud sure, but what's the bus number for Perl 5 regex engine?
japhb pmichaud: I'd guess a handful. Probably >1, <5. 21:03
pmichaud I'd be surprised if it's as high as 5.
I suepect it's 2.
Tene I'm fairly comfortable with PCT.
pmichaud (where "bus number" means "availability of people to work with it")
there may be 5 who have worked on the perl 5 regex engine, but I don't know that there are that many who *would* do so today 21:04
japhb Well, in any case, I'm more worried about PCT than PGE, except that it's never a bad idea to have at least 2 people at least aware of *how* to work on each block of code ...
true.
pmichaud at any rate, I'm comfortable that PCT could be picked up w/o too much difficulty. Several have done so.
Tene++ being the most obvious candidate :-) 21:05
japhb :-)
pmichaud PGE would be a bit harder, but that's somewhat because of the nature of the beast. But I'm certain that it would be easier for someone to pick up PGE than any other regex engine :-)
21:05 bacek joined
pmichaud and some major refactorings to PGE are imminent, and I think the result will be much more accessible. 21:06
cotto ltm?
purl i think ltm is longest token matching
Tene I've held off looking at PGE because of the pending refactors.
pmichaud protoregexes first. Also I think I'll be redoing parts of PGE in NQP.
after that will be ltm. 21:07
protoregexes are far more important at this point than ltm.
Tene I plan to attentively watch the PGE refactors to start learning it.
I was waiting for protoregexes to refactor Cardinal's parser.
japhb pmichaud: What has been blocking you on these? I seem to recall at least protoregexes and LTM being "Real Soon Now" for a long time.
pmichaud Tene: there's a good possibility that "PGE refactor" will end up being "PGE rewrite"
Tene pmichaud: even better for me. :)
pmichaud japhb: main blocker is time.
japhb Ah. Sucks, that. 21:08
pmichaud japhb: and energy, to some extent. The time I had originally planned to spend working on PGE stuff got eaten up dealing with Parrot issues.
er, "Parrot-related issues"
japhb That's very unfortunate.
pmichaud On the plus side, though, it's good that the rewrites were delayed, because a few Perl 6 regex details have changed since then 21:09
(and may actually change again over the next couple of weeks)
japhb :-)
pmichaud so at least I'm only redoing it once instead of redoing it twice
Tene: I'm thinking that there will be a new PGE that Rakudo will use and that hopefully other languages will be able to migrate to 21:10
and the existing PGE will remain intact for backwards compatibility/deprecation purposes, and eventually be obsolete by around Parrot 2.6
cotto AGE - Awesome Grammar Engine
pmichaud I like that
also gets rid of that silly "P"-acronym
cotto What kind of changes are you thinking about? 21:11
pmichaud well, fundamentally the operator precedence parser changes
since everything in PGE regexes is based on that.... it's a fundamental change.
the next fundamental change will be the heavy use of lexicals within regexes 21:12
cotto It seems like any given Parrot subsystem needs to be rewritten two or three times in a backwards-incompatible way before we know the right way to do it.
pmichaud at the time the current version of PGE was written, lexicals in Parrot were broken 21:13
we also now have the advantage of having a working PCT
so it's very possible that PGE ast nodes will turn into PGE nodes
cotto I look forward to stealing shamelessly from Squeak's VM to try to get that number down for L1.
pmichaud sorry, will turn into PCT nodes
so if PGE can be written in terms of PCT... that's a big win. 21:14
(another issue with PGE at the time it was written was that we didn't have -any- usable AST things for Parrot at the time)
japhb adds the above to his mental list of reasons we really need more optimization work.
pmichaud the last fundamental change is that I'm thinking that NQP and its grammar will be the primary interface to PGE instead of having a separate interface (as is currently the case) 21:15
japhb pmichaud: Is the creation of new $_, $!, $/ in every Rakudo scope required by Perl 6, or an implementation quirk of Rakudo?
pmichaud japhb: every block has its own lexical $_, $!, and $/, iiuc 21:16
japhb Are block and scope interchangeable?
pmichaud every block defines a new scope
japhb (i.e. are there blocks that don't introduce a scope, or vice versa?)
pmichaud I'm not aware of any blocks that don't potentially define a new scope. 21:17
it's possible that inlined blocks don't do that.
but that's an optimization, which a compiler must be prepared to pessimize if the optimization preconditions turn out to be false
japhb nod
cotto seen austing 21:31
purl I haven't seen 'austing', cotto
cotto seen austin
purl austin was last seen on #parrot 9 days, 17 hours, 56 minutes and 52 seconds ago, saying: So does parray ever get reached? [Jul 12 03:28:55 2009]
cotto seen austin_hastings
purl austin_hastings was last seen on #parrot 17 days, 19 hours, 50 minutes and 44 seconds ago, saying: Pmichaud: Thanks, but I'm just finishing the elsif chain... :( [Jul 4 01:35:09 2009]
dalek kudo: 2967a71 | moritz++ | docs/announce/2009-07:
[docs] stub 2009-07 release announcement with deprecation notices
 21:38
kudo: 5c1a814 | moritz++ | :
Merge branch 'master' of git@github.com:rakudo/rakudo
21:43 theory joined
bacek good morning #parrot 21:51
dalek rrot: r40199 | bacek++ | trunk/examples/benchmarks/overload.pir:
[cage] Remove .include 'mmd.pasm'. mmd.pasm doesn't exists anymore
 21:52
rrot: r40200 | bacek++ | trunk/examples (11 files):
[cage] Use iter opcode instead of new Iterator in examples
cotto hi bacek 21:56
bacek hi cotto
dalek rrot: r40201 | coke++ | trunk/DEPRECATED.pod:
According to TT #415, the trap opcode is staying -
 21:59
22:04 Limbic_Region joined
dalek TT #836 closed by cotto++: [DEPRECATED] ops file preamble format 22:05
22:05 tomyan joined 22:19 kid51 joined
Coke anyone know if emit_jsr in the alpha jit needs to be removed if we're removing jsr? 22:31
chromatic I doubt it.
Coke ok. I'll leave it alone.
chromatic JSR there is likely the CPU instruction, not the Parrot opcode.
22:36 rg1 joined
Coke hey, we don't test the jsr opcode at all! whee. 22:37
(makes ripping it out easy)
dalek TT #870 closed by bacek++: examples/benchmarks/overload.pir does not compile
Coke whoops, there is one test. my bad. 22:38
bacek Coke: kill it! 22:40
dalek rrot: r40202 | bacek++ | trunk (2 files):
[cage] Remove references to mmd.pasm
 22:41
bacek finished backlog 22:42
cotto: I'm not "maniac"! I'm "THE MANIAC"! 22:43
cotto: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/2009-06-14#i_1238572 Where is my title?! :) 22:51
japhb pmichaud: am I correct in assuming that PCT does essentially no optimization of the code between input PAST and output PIR? 22:54
Which is to say, it's just following set rules for converting at each stage? 22:55
Tene japhb: yes.
japhb Tene: thx
Tene japhb: the plan is to allow additional stages that you can insert to do optimization at every step. 22:56
(you could do that right now, but nobody does yet)
so it's like... past->past_optimize->post->post_optimize
japhb right. 22:57
Tene and then ->pir for now, and just straight ->pbc eventually
cotto purl, bacek? 22:59
purl bacek is importing the last week's worth of patches from github.com/bacek/parrot/tree/packfile_revamp, I imagine
cotto no, bacek is THE MANIAC 23:00
purl okay, cotto.
bacek :) 23:01
kid51 msg whiteknight Can you look at trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/490 ? Thanks. 23:05
purl Message for whiteknight stored.
bacek $dayjob time 23:09
dalek rrot: r40203 | bacek++ | trunk (3 files):
[cage] Remove deprecated Parrot_str_free function
TT #826 closed by bacek++: Deprecate Parrot_str_free 23:13
23:13 payload joined 23:14 tetragon joined
dalek kudo: 169fc1c | pmichaud++ | src/setting/ (2 files):
Add Int.Str and Num.Str.
 23:28
rrot: r40204 | jkeenan++ | trunk (15 files):
Merge pbc_info_remove branch into trunk. Cf.: trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/440. This removes the 'pbc_info' executable and moves it to examples/c/pbc_info.c.
 23:31
TT #440 closed by jkeenan++: move src/pbc_info.c to examples/c/pbc_sample.c 23:34
rrot: r40205 | jkeenan++ | branches/pbc_info_remove:
Branch has been merged into trunk and is no longer needed at HEAD.
purl i already had it that way, dalek.
cotto < purl-- > 23:37
Coke parrot: Branch has been merged into trunk and? 23:51
purl it has been said that Branch has been merged into trunk and is no longer needed at HEAD.
Coke is 'make testb' failing for anyone? 23:52
(it's failing in my work-in-progress to remove jsr, but it doesn't look JSR related)

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