Parrot 1.8.0 Zygodactyly released | December 12 Development Hackathon: tinyurl.com/ybrsgmp | Online Parrot Roadmap Meeting: Sunday 13 December, 19:30 UCT
Set by moderator on 12 December 2009.
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particle could somebody send out a reminder about tomorrow's meeting to the list? 00:47
particle runs away...
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he I wonder if I could interest anyone to take a peek at ticket #1340... 01:11
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chromatic I don't think that patch is the right approach, he. 01:16
We *could* not mark the custom destroy flag on the clone, which would avoid calling the destructor.
That's not a bad short-term solution. 01:17
However, we don't want the destruction of one PMC to dlclose() the shared library out from under another ParrotLibrary.
he Right. I expected the right fix to be elsewhere in parrot's code. For now my patch lives as a local patch in pkgsrc for 1.7.0 (I've not gotten around to upgrade it to 1.8.0 yet -- I'm busy with "real life") 01:18
chromatic The best approach is (as usual) what Andy Dougherty suggested: dlopen() again. 01:19
he Yep, most probably, and that would fix the issue for NetBSD as well, because our ld.elf_so does "reference counting"
I'm however not intimate enough with the code to tell if all the required info is present and easily accessible at the clone() point in the code. 01:20
chromatic I don't think it does; at a minimum, we'd need to store the path to the shared library in ParrotLibrary. 01:21
... unless there's a POSIX-compatible way to duplicate a shared library handle.
he There doesn't appear to be on NetBSD, at least, and POSIX doesn't seem to specify a way either. 01:23
OK, thanks for that for now. Time for bed here. 01:24
chromatic You're welcome.
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Jimmy good moring, #parrot 01:26
chromatic Our string system isn't quite encapsulated enough to make this easy. 01:28
We might consider making separate C types for parrot_string_substr_t and parrot_string_external_t. 01:33
The isomorphism with the Buffer type is also a bit of a hassle.
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moderator Parrot 1.8.0 Zygodactyly released | December 12 Development Hackathon: tinyurl.com/ybrsgmp | Online Parrot Roadmap Meeting: Sunday 13 December, 19:30 UCT
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fperrad purl 09:48
purl fperrad?
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mj41 I just created ... Perl 6 and Parrot links statistics - tapir2.ro.vutbr.cz/P6aP-links/stats.html (year 2008 199 links, year 2009 335 links) 11:49
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kid51 The online meeting today -- is that here or on #parrotsketch? 13:11
mikehh here according to the wiki 13:15
kid51 Problem: *I* put that on the wiki -- without stopping to think that it might be on #parrotsketch. 13:16
mikehh well I have both open so we shall see 13:17
it's in about 6 hours 13:18
kid51 mikehh: I just read your latest postings in TT #1368 13:19
What's your high-level sense of the problem?
How much of these test failures are we inducing with our code?
mikehh kid51: at least someone reads them :-}
kid51 And how much is it the platform. 13:20
I read the posts but can't claim to understand the issues.
mikehh this is the only one I am getting at the moment - all other tests pass (except for TODO's ans SKIPs) 13:21
kid51 And are the fails you have posted in the last two hours due to r42924 ... or to some later rev? 13:22
mikehh well it doesn't fail on i386 and I haven't had any other reports of failures - so I don't know
it passes when I build withh gcc without --optimize but fails only in testr with g++ 13:23
that's on Ubuntu 9.10 amd64 and Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 - gcc 4.4.1 and gcc 4.3.4 respectively 13:24
I bisected and that's where I got the first failure - I can't see why from looking at that revision 13:26
I only bisected with Ubuntu 9.10 gcc with --optimize but everything passed at r42924 (I did a test run with all variants then) 13:27
saorry r42923 13:28
kid51 I looked at r42924 as well and had similar (non-)reaction
Well, perhaps when chromatic comes on line you can go over that with him 13:29
mikehh the problem with Segmentation faults is that it is often very difficult to track them down 13:30
especially when they happen with the optimizing compiler 13:31
and the g++ failure only happens with testr (pbc) 13:32
kid51 Yes. These reports of "only on amd64, only with optimize, only with this particular compiler" are becoming too familiar
mikehh which doesn't fail with gcc
and all the other tests PASS 13:33
kid51 What is --optimize supposed to do? 13:34
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mikehh it is a lot easier to track down when a bunch of tests fail - but just one in specific circumstances tends to worry me 13:34
as far as I understand it the --optimize runs the compiler with -O2 and -g flags 13:39
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Whiteknight good morning, #parrot 16:22
everybody ready for the big plannin meeting today?
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particle Whiteknight: the time is off on the calendar, it says 5:30pst 16:36
Whiteknight I must have gotten the wrong timezone then
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Whiteknight it's 3:30 PST? 16:36
what time is it supposed to be, exactly? 16:43
purl It's about twenty to five in the afternoon, Whiteknight.
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allison Whiteknight: we said 2 hours after the usual parrotsketch, so adjust that to whatever your local timezone is 17:13
Whiteknight the calendar apparently is in UTC time
so 20:30 UTC?
moritz seems like 17:14
Whiteknight okay, done
moritz that's in 3 hours 17 minutes
The current suggestion is
2 hours later than the usual Parrotsketch meetings, so 8:30pm GMT,
12:30pm Pacific time, 3:30pm Eastern time.
that's what Coke++ wrote
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Whiteknight I'm bad at time math 17:35
mikehh Whiteknight : I make it 17:34 at the moment - just under two hours to go 17:41
well 17:41 now
didn't hit the Enter key when I typed the message :-} 17:42
I am about half way through the book - Garbage Collection: Algorithms for Automatic Dynamic Memory Management (on my first read that is) 17:45
Whiteknight and how is it? 17:49
I read a lot of papers on the subject, but they're always so short and nebulous 17:50
I always feel like they skip over the important implementation details
mikehh excellent I would say - very comprehensive and clear on the subject 17:51
the algorithms are explained very well and not language specific 17:52
the advantages and problems with each apprach are discussed in quite a lot of detail 17:54
I am working through Incremental and Concurrent Garbage Collection now 17:56
moritz I'm usually also disappointed with scientific papers I read about my own subject 17:57
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mikehh the primary author Richard Jones has a new book (with others) on the subject coming out towards the end of next year 18:02
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kid51 I asked yesterday what time the meeting was to start and I was told 19:30 UCT -- which is what I put in the topic. 18:04
Is that wrong?
allison kid51: the email I sent out said "2 hours later than the usual Parrotsketch meetings, so 8:30pm GMT, 12:30pm Pacific time, 3:30pm Eastern time" 18:06
Whiteknight I had a professor at school who always said academic papers should be more self-congratulatory than informative
an opinion that I never liked, but it does seem to be the rule
allison Whiteknight: it does seem an accurate assessment
kid51 Well, then I was misinformed yesterday. 18:07
mikehh Whiteknight :-}
kid51 Is the meeting taking place on this channel or on #parrotsketch?
Whiteknight somebody else is going to have to update google calendar if it's wrong. I obviously don't know how to read a clock
mikehh Whiteknight: have a look at www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/staff/rej/gc.html 18:08
moderator Parrot 1.8.0 Zygodactyly released | Online Parrot Roadmap Meeting: Sunday 13 December, 20:30 UCT 18:08
Whiteknight mikehh: awesome! thanks for the link 18:09
kid51 allison ping
allison kid51: yup? 18:17
purl yup is probably Yellow Dog Linux's update manager.
kid51 allison: Which channel are we going to meet on?
here or parrotsketch? 18:18
allison kid51: wasn't decided, but I'd say parrotsketch makes sense, so ordinary traffic can continue here
kid51 k
moderator Parrot 1.8.0 Zygodactyly released | Online Parrot Roadmap Meeting: Sunday 13 December, 20:30 UCT on #parrotsketch 18:18
cotto That'll make it easier to catch up for those of us who can't be there. 18:19
dalek tracwiki: v134 | jkeenan++ | WikiStart
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/WikiSta...ction=diff
tracwiki: v135 | jkeenan++ | WikiStart
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/WikiSta...ction=diff
cotto kid51, no moss on you
moderator Parrot 1.8.0 Zygodactyly released | Online Parrot Roadmap Meeting: Sunday 13 December, 20:30 UTC on #parrotsketch 18:20
particle s/UCT/UTC/ 18:21
particle runs off again
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dalek tracwiki: v4 | jkeenan++ | ProposedParrotsketchProtocol 18:35
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/Propose...ction=diff
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dalek rrot: r43028 | plobsing++ | trunk (5 files):
remove container element from visit_info
 19:06
tracwiki: v6 | cotto++ | CottoTasklist 19:08
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/CottoTa...ction=diff
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mikehh pre/post-config, smoke (#30886) PASS - fulltest FAIL at at r43028 - Ubuntu 9.10 amd64 (g++ with --optimize) 19:54
in testr - t/op/exceptions.t - Failed test: 31 - Segmentation Fault
all other tests PASS
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japhb #ps nowish 20:30
dalek tracwiki: v1 | bacek++ | ContextCallSignatureMerge 20:31
tracwiki: CallSignature and Context merge "roadmap"
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/Context...ction=diff
bacek allison, when you have time, can you review trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/Context...atureMerge please? 20:32
allison bacek: will do 20:33
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Coke arrives. 21:07
chromatic -> #ps 21:08
kid51 Coke: meeting in #ps
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Coke kid51: danke. 21:15
allison bacek: comments added to trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/Context...atureMerge 21:21
kid51 PCC? 21:27
purl Welcome to Perl Community College, where we, for free, and at your convenience, teach you all of an intro-CS curriculum, such as you should have learned in college or by simply reading on your own. Please also visit the Perl Crisis Clinic, where we do all your job for you. or Parrot Calling Convention or Proof Carrying Code or en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_C_Compiler
Coke kid51: do you need sound byte describing what the parrot calling conventions mean? 21:28
kid51 would be nice 21:29
Coke basically, whenever you invoke a sub, you need to pass in arguments and get return values out; the pcc describe how you package and unpackage the values passed and returned. 21:33
bacek particle1, trac.parrot.org/parrot/browser/trun...lo_pbc.pir 21:35
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dalek tracwiki: v2 | allison++ | ContextCallSignatureMerge 21:37
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/Context...ction=diff
kid51 Coke: by "invoke a sub", do you mean how HLLs invoke subs or how we do so within PIR?
japhb PIR
kid51 (or is that a false distinction?)
japhb yes
well, mostly.
:-)
allison in this case, it's a false distinction 21:38
or, it is now
we've merged the two, so they now use the same code, except for once small "entry" and "exit" point
Coke ? allison, I think you're talking about return vs. invoke, which isn't what kid51 said. 21:41
allison Coke: he was asking about the distinction between HLLs and PIR
kid51 Coke: I probably don't enough to correctly distinguish between 'return' and 'invoke' :( 21:42
Coke allison: I am confused how it was ever a true distinction. =-)
kid51 What I was wondering was: Who is the 'you' in "you need to pass in arguments and get return values out"
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chromatic The PCC is that you. 21:43
Coke the VM; whatever the hll does on that of that is its own concern.
smash hello everyone
Coke HULK? 21:44
purl Hulk SMASH!!!
Coke ~~
anyone here want a google wave invite? 21:46
chromatic I want a good use for Google Wave, but that's entirely different and no one has those. 21:47
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japhb particle: I believe for some reason my use.perl.org posts never got working with Planet Parrot. Does anyone know if blog[s?].parrot.org works with Planet Parrot? I can create an account there ... 21:48
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japhb I have been posting on twitter and indenti.ca, but only a couple Parroters follow me there, I think. 21:49
particle1 i don't know specifics on planet parrot, i belive that's coke's baliwick
moritz do you mean blogs.perl.org?
particle1 i've heard of twitter, never used it.
japhb moritz, yes, sorry, thank you
Coke: do you happen to know if blogs.perl.org posts work with Planet Parrot? 21:50
Coke (planet) I have commit keys, that's about it; I can add another feed =-) 21:51
japhb kid51: Hmmm, I think that wiki page has gotten a bit out of date. I'll put "update wiki page" on my personal TODO, thanks
Coke, OK, thank you 21:52
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Whiteknight is *extremely* unhappy about being so late 21:54
japhb Whiteknight, who do beat with a wet noodle for keeping you away? 21:56
er "who do *we*"
japhb has crappy typing today
Whiteknight stupid wireless router 21:57
particle1 japhb: try beer, it doesn't help with the typing, but it helps with the caring
particle1 hands Whiteknight an ethernet cable
Whiteknight I wish
I'm at the in-laws house, no physical access to the router
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Whiteknight I'm glad my proposed deprecation policy changes were mentioned 21:59
even if they garnered no attentoin on list 22:00
japhb Whiteknight, your thread happened to hit me at the same time as a lot of other stuff, which is why I didn't comment ... plus I knew the meeting today was coming up, and we could say our peace today.
chromatic They sounded like fait accompli. 22:01
Coke THey were warnocked in a good way. =-) 22:02
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japhb Any Trac admin: can you add "plumage" as a TT Component? 22:04
Coke sure. 22:06
done
allison goes to get some tea 22:07
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darbelo Say, has nyone else seen Bob Roger's mail to the list about TT #1091? 22:10
Coke yes.
chromatic It needs some absorbing, but I'm initially hopeful. 22:11
darbelo It looked sane enough to me, but I'm unfamiliar with that code. 22:12
pmichaud here, finally, sorry I'm late (we won our championship game)
reading backscroll
Coke pmichaud++ 22:13
pmichaud: we're taking a 5m braek.
Whiteknight I'm reasonably familiar with that code, I can give it a good look soon
kid51 pmichaud: We decided to meet on parrotsketch
pmichaud okay, reading #parrotsketch then 22:14
particle1 pmichaud: congrats!
japhb Coke++ # Trac fix 22:16
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Coke pmichaud: should nqp-rx's class use the hll option when invoking p6metaclass.newclass? 22:17
GeJ Good morning everyone.
darbelo morning GeJ, big meeting in the other channel. 22:18
japhb GeJ, big meeting in #ps right now
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pmichaud Coke: I think new_class already recognizes the hll of the caller if no 'hll' option specified 22:22
Coke pmichaud: I'm trying to move the class creation of tclstring into nqp and failing. 22:25
nopaste "pmichaud" at 66.25.4.52 pasted "list of rakudo needs (response to whiteknight++'s off-list message)" (38 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/19067
Coke will ping you if I have something specific.
Whiteknight pmichaud: we're idly talking about putting together a mini philadelphia-area hackathon in the coming months, and wanted to talk to you about Rakudo's needs so we can have a focus 22:27
all very tenuous, of course
pmichaud a philly-area hackathon would be worthwhile. I might even be able to get some TPF support for it. 22:28
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NotFound hi 23:03
Coke hio
kid51 NotFound: meeting in #parrotsketch 23:04
NotFound Now?
purl The chalice contains human blood cursed in Death's name. The hooded figure kneeling beside you passes it to you and you have to drink. LOSE 3 HIT POINTS.
kid51 Yes, we're in the home stretch.
the Roadmap meeting
NotFound Going 23:05
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Coke hurm. is there a way to get a core class object in PIR? 23:16
chromatic What's a core class object?
Coke get_class 'String' 23:17
... s/PIR/NQP/
(as I already know how to do it in PIR. =-)
Whiteknight Infinoid: ping 23:18
purl msg Infinoid: I would ike to get back on the boat with AIO and pipes. If you have time, you know more about pipes than I do. 23:19
purl Message for infinoid stored.
chromatic Probably not a 2.3 priority though. 23:20
Whiteknight no, but a piece of personal interest 23:21
AIO could bring realperformance improvements in many IO-intensive cases 23:22
chromatic The sweep-free GC will bring real performance improvements in all cases.
Infinoid Whiteknight: Ok. How can I help?
Whiteknight Infinoid: you were working on a Pipe PMC type 23:23
Infinoid Yeah. I got a bit caught up by wanting to support two different use cases in the same object 23:25
Purpose 1: expose the POSIX pipe() API, allow the user to make a couple of linked fds
Purpose 2: Use the aforementioned linked fds to run a child process and either capture its output or provide its input
I think the latter feature needs to go somewhere else 23:26
dalek nxed: r258 | julian.notfound++ | trunk/winxedst1.winxed:
fixed size arrays in stage 1
 23:27
rtcl-nqp: 46f26de | coke++ | src/ (2 files):
Move some more PIR into NQP [1]
Infinoid So yeah. Pipes themselves are pretty simple... it's the child processing nonsense that was bogging me down 23:29
NotFound Infinoid: What nonsense? 23:30
purl o/~ A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men o/~
chromatic Cross-platform signal detection and the like.
Infinoid It would be cleaner if that stuff could live somewhere other than within the pipe PMC 23:31
But I'm not sure where that should be.
NotFound A pipe is a general purpose tool, popen-alike is a specialized usage. 23:33
Infinoid yes 23:34
NotFound Then a specialized PMC is the better way IMO.
chromatic We should have platform-specific IO functions. 23:36
In platform-specific IO files. 23:37
Infinoid In the end, what you get back is a PipeHandle object or two, either way. The part I was unsure about is what the creation API should look like (because the current code (at the time) seemed to want to act more like perl5's open, and was terribly specific to forking child processes)
Anyway, that's where I left it.
Whiteknight I guess Pipes are not blocking AIO, but I was hoping to have all the major IO primitives implemented before I started reworking the IO system 23:42
because I want to make sure IO refactors and AIO support everything well
Infinoid Oh, I see. Well, the primitives are pretty easy 23:47
Is FileHandle still using pipes and forking internally, or did that get cleaned up? 23:48
Whiteknight FileHandle is still doing all the heavy lifting 23:50
Whiteknight has to sign off. will backlog. later 23:57

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